WEBVTT - Warning Signs 0:00:01.000 --> 0:00:06.000 This is the most dramatic podcast ever and iHeartRadio podcast. 0:00:07.600 --> 0:00:11.640 Everybody. Welcome to the most dramatic podcast ever. I am 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:15.040 Lauren Zima. Here solo in, as my husband would say, 0:00:15.040 --> 0:00:19.000 the home office of Austin, Texas. Because my husband is out. 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:21.120 I'm going to call him out. He's out, very near 0:00:21.160 --> 0:00:24.320 to the home office. But playing golf, and that feels right, 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:27.040 doesn't it. It's okay. We love him, we support him. 0:00:27.040 --> 0:00:29.680 And here's the thing. He is playing in something he 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:32.559 looks forward to so much. I've just learned about it. 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:34.680 You may know about it. It's called a member guest 0:00:35.120 --> 0:00:38.159 golf tournament, and it is very cute. It is a 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:42.159 time when he gets to bring in his best friend 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:45.640 from California to Texas to visit us and play in 0:00:45.640 --> 0:00:48.920 this golf tournament. Chris is the member and his best 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:51.680 friendship is the guest, and so it's a beautiful thing. 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:55.200 It's like watching two little guys get to have a 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:58.120 playdate with a friend who moved away, or seeing two 0:00:58.200 --> 0:01:01.880 friends reunited summer camp a year, and it's just lovely. 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:05.560 And I am a big proponent of friendships and their 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:09.200 importance in your romantic relationship. I love for Chris to 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:11.280 have time with his guy friends for me to have 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:14.080 time with my girlfriends. And that's actually something we get 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:18.319 into on the podcast today, the importance of friendships and 0:01:18.360 --> 0:01:21.160 your social structure in making sure you're not in a 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:27.120 dangerous romantic relationship. And that comes from our guest doctor Romney. 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:30.520 She is so incredible. We've been working on getting around 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:32.959 the podcast for a minute because she's very booked and busy. 0:01:33.360 --> 0:01:37.840 She is a clinical psychologist, a retired professor of psychology, 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:41.600 a best selling author. Her books include Don't You Know 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:44.480 Who I Am? How to Stay Sane in the Era 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:49.920 of Narcissism, Entitlement, and Inclivity. So that's what we're going 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:53.520 to hit the nail on the head with today is narcissism. 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:57.000 She through her research and her work, has basically become 0:01:57.640 --> 0:02:00.880 one of the experts of the people the forefront of 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:04.760 the research on narcissism. And I feel like narcissism is 0:02:04.800 --> 0:02:07.160 both obviously a very real thing, but then kind of 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:10.280 this buzzword that we hear a lot lately, especially like 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:12.800 in the worlds that Chris and I operate in of 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:17.120 reality TV. You certainly hear people accusing others of being narcissists, 0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:20.080 And so the question is like, how real is it? 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:22.400 How many people are really narcissists? How much of a 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:26.000 buzzword is it? How much are we all encountering it 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:28.760 and don't know it. If you think you or a 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:32.120 friend might be in a narcissistic relationship, this podcast is 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:35.280 really going to help you. So Doctor Romney was incredible. 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:38.239 She answered so many questions, gave so many good takeaways, 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:42.239 and let's welcome her. Now, all right, doctor Romney, welcome. 0:02:42.560 --> 0:02:45.200 I am so excited to talk to you because I 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:48.919 feel like if there's one person who pops up everywhere 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:55.040 on my Instagram in the algorithm with these incredible takeaways 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:59.280 on narcissism, it is you. So now, first I want 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:02.000 to ask you how did you become I mean, you've 0:03:02.000 --> 0:03:05.640 written multiple books about narcissism. How did you become the 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:08.320 authority on narcissism? And is it something you wanted to 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:09.520 become or did it just happen? 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:12.880 When you study narcissism, you never want to say you're 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:14.200 the authority on it because then you're thinking, no, I 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:16.160 don't want to be grandiose, but I've been doing this 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:17.880 for a long time and I wish it was like 0:03:17.919 --> 0:03:20.440 a great origin story. It's kind of boring. I came 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:23.360 into it as an academic researcher and then as a 0:03:23.400 --> 0:03:27.840 practicing therapist, and in those spaces it was sort of 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:30.920 it was one of those things where you like, the 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:33.639 missing puzzle piece seems so easy, right, I'm like, well, 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:36.640 if we explain narcissism, or we thought about this is narcissism, 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:38.720 it all makes sense. But there was a lot of 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:40.800 resistance to it. You know. Where I really noticed is 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:42.600 like the field of mental health didn't even want to 0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:44.000 take this on, and there was a lot of sort 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:47.040 of being apologists for this behavior. Well maybe they have 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:49.960 a reason. I'm like, there's no reason to emotionally abuse someone, Like, 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:52.000 you're never going to come up with a rationale for 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:55.040 that for me. And so I got so I got 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:57.200 into it again as a researcher and as a therapist, 0:03:57.200 --> 0:03:59.080 and it wasn't until many years later that I kind 0:03:59.080 --> 0:04:02.080 of opened my eyes to these patterns were definitely in 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:05.000 my life too, and even my unwillingness to want to 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:07.800 see it. That really took me much to get much 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:11.320 more interested in what was happening to people in these relationships. 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:15.240 Lots of people. I've written about narcissism, but what happens 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:17.839 to people when they're in a narcissistic relationship. There was 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:20.280 much much less on that. So that was where That's 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:22.559 how I came into it, and I was really struck 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:25.120 by how much people are helped when they understand what 0:04:25.160 --> 0:04:26.919 this is about, and above all else that it's not 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:30.480 their fault someone else. If someone else is treating you badly, 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:35.400 that's not your fault. They're engaging in a behavior. And 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:37.760 if you attempt to communicate with them and you get 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:40.440 worse treatment back, you got a real problem on your hands. 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:41.320 But then it's not you. 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:44.960 Wow. Even from that, I have so much to want 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:48.080 to ask you before I forget it. What's striking to 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:51.720 me there is that you said there was a resistance 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:55.200 to acknowledge narcissism. Because I feel like today and I 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:56.800 did want to ask you about this, but today it 0:04:56.839 --> 0:04:59.680 kind of feels like it's everywhere, maybe even and I 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:01.600 do want your opinion, but maybe even to the point 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:04.120 of like, are we over using it? So what was 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:06.159 the shift there? Why is it more acceptable now? 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:10.040 I don't. I mean, I think that the shift has 0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:12.919 been I think the shifts in the political landscape. I 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:15.000 think from twenty sixteen forward, and not just in the 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:18.520 United States, but throughout the world, there were leadership shifts 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:21.240 that meant journalists were using this word more. 0:05:21.640 --> 0:05:24.120 I think that you mean, we got some narcissistic leaders 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:25.279 in our Yeah. 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:27.080 I'm trying to be I'm trying to be as both 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:29.000 sides of the aisle here as I can be. Right 0:05:30.200 --> 0:05:32.840 we are and it's not and it's not just in 0:05:33.320 --> 0:05:35.960 presidential or prime minister or not even just in the US. 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:39.440 It's not just its senates, it's senators, it's congress people, 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:41.440 it's you know, it's all of it. It's not just there. 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:43.760 We see it more in the celebrity world. To be 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:45.320 frank with you, I mean, I think that we're in 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:49.960 an era where we almost celebrate, revere, incentivize, and reward 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:53.520 narcissistic behavior. The more outlanders, the more grandiose, the more 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:56.640 attendency making we're standing up in applouding. I think of 0:05:56.680 --> 0:05:59.880 the influencer economy, this is basically somebody who's saying, look 0:05:59.880 --> 0:06:01.039 at me, look at me, look at me, and they're 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:03.800 they're making a lot of money at well. Once upon 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:07.120 a time, wasn't sort of a viable pathway to a career. 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:10.360 And yet people, the best influencers, I would imagine, at 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:12.359 some level, are able to sort of just sort of 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:15.320 make it about them. So in a strange way, narcissism 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:19.200 could incentivize a person being more economically successful in our 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:23.120 new sort of technologically driven economy. So I think though 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:27.000 the word coming more into the purview was that political shift. 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:29.440 I really believe it was that because as much as 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:32.039 journalists tried to avoid using it, you couldn't avoid it, 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:34.440 because it was the word that worked. And then I 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:37.000 think what happened was, you know, I mean, there were 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:39.560 people out there, myself included, who id YouTube channels, and 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:43.520 people were talking more about it, and then it helped 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:46.240 people make sense of stuff, and that of course led 0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:47.839 to a lot of people wanting to talk about it. 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:49.960 But then the problem is, and this has always been 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:52.800 the problem with narcissism, it's a subtle topic. It's not 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:55.680 as simple as this is a person who brags, this 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:57.720 is a person who looks in the mirror or a lot, 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:00.719 this is a person who's superficial, or this is a 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:05.960 person who's who's egocentric. It's not that simple. It's so 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:08.320 much more subtle. And when we get into the weeds 0:07:08.320 --> 0:07:11.560 of the subtlety, that's when people really feel understood. But 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:14.200 when we make it into more this simplistic black and white, 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:16.560 like my boyfriend cheated on me, he's narcissistic, I'm like, 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:19.000 your boyfriend cheated on you. But we're gonna have to 0:07:19.040 --> 0:07:21.160 ask a few more questions to figure out if this 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:23.440 guy's narcissistic. That was not a nice thing to do, 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:26.440 but not everyone who does that is narcissistic. So I 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:29.040 think people are using the word as a hammer to 0:07:30.240 --> 0:07:34.360 put people down, to paint themselves as the person who's suffering. 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:37.200 And it's not that simple. And I think the subtlety 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:39.080 means that we have to have a different kind of 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:41.760 a conversation. Unfortunately, the Internet and social media aren't built 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:42.320 for subtlety. 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:47.880 So do you think the word is being overused now 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:49.440 or do you think it's okay? 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:51.560 I do. I think that there are people who are 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:54.840 using it to identify one behavior in a relationship right 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:57.640 or they're using it to say, oh my gosh, you 0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:00.520 takes so many selfie, she's narcissistic. And I'll say slow down. 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:03.920 Just because a person posts a lot of selfies. Am 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:06.720 I willing to up my bet that they might be narcissistic? Sure? 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:08.880 But am I willing to go all in on that bet. No. 0:08:09.360 --> 0:08:11.720 I mean because it could very well be someone's posting 0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:13.720 a lot of selfies I don't know, because they think 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:15.960 it's fun. But in the same breath, in the other 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:19.440 parts of their life, they're empathic, they're compassionate, they don't 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:23.480 believe they deserve special treatment, they're emotionally regulated, they don't 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:25.640 lash out at other people. So if a person does 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:27.920 that and post selfies, it's just like, I don't know, 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:29.560 Maybe that's our hobby, that's what they like to do, 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:31.760 maybe they like to share their lives. But if they're 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:34.680 not harming other people in their life, that this is 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:37.520 something I like to do. That's very, very different than 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:40.160 the person who's posting selfies and raging at people for 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:42.920 not liking their pictures and being jealous of other people 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:45.760 who are posting pictures and making fun of other people's 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:49.760 pictures and feeling you know, entitled to people paying attention 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:53.200 to their special things. Like it's that it's not just 0:08:53.280 --> 0:08:57.480 the selfies, it's not just the infidelities. It's not just 0:08:57.480 --> 0:09:00.280 like people who might. I don't know, like one, because 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:03.560 a lot on their appearance could be and like I said, 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:07.160 it ups the probability, but it's not a guarantee. And 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:09.520 I think we have to be careful that if somebody 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:12.240 does one selfish thing. My sister didn't come to my 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:14.720 birthday party, she's so narcissistic. I want to say, can 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:16.320 you tell me a little bit more about your sister? 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:18.880 And then i'd have to find now if you keep 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:20.840 telling me that this is just one of a thousand 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:23.959 of these instances, maybe so, But if that's the thing 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:26.760 your sister did, and otherwise you've had a good relationship 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:28.960 with her, and the first time she disappoints you, you're 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:31.079 calling her narcissistic. Yeah, that's not how that works. 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:33.800 So well, I want to ask you a tough question 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:36.920 because you're just explaining how subtle it is and how 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:40.040 you need all this information to diagnose it or label 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:43.520 someone that. But how do you define narcissism? Then if 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:45.880 you have to give a simple definition just to kind 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:49.280 of get people on the same baseline page, what is narcissism? 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:50.400 What is a narcissist? 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:52.880 I think right there is there is no simple definition. 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:55.199 I think that's whatever wants they want the one liner, right, 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:56.760 I mean like I'm going to give you a run 0:09:56.800 --> 0:10:02.280 on sentence. A personality stable, consistent, what we call pervasive. 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:05.760 It cuts across all situations. This is how the person 0:10:05.960 --> 0:10:10.160 is most of the time, especially in unguarded circumstances like 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:12.720 people close to them, Right, And so the things that 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:20.959 show up are lack of empathy, self centeredness, grandiosity, arrogance, entitlement, 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:27.640 excessive need for admiration and validation. They need to be 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:30.120 in control, they need to be the ones in power. 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:36.199 And the way this shows up in relationships it again 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:38.400 they can be very again domineering and controlling. But the 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:39.959 thing you got to remember too is a lot of 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:45.079 narcissistic people can be charming and charismatic, confident, compelling, attractive. 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:47.520 There's something that's drawing us to them and what makes 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:50.760 them sort of it allows them sort of enter situations easily. 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:53.800 But at the core of narcissism is a tremendous insecurity 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:56.960 and that's the piece that sometimes makes people feel bad like, oh, 0:10:56.920 --> 0:10:59.240 if they're insecure, well I shouldn't. I shouldn't be dismissive. 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:02.800 So it's not about being dismissive it's about being willing 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:06.200 to clock their behavior is unacceptable. What's their behavior? Their 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:11.840 behavior tends to be very manipulative, dismissive, invalidating gas lighting. 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:17.280 They get angry very quickly if they're frustrated, if they're disappointed, 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:21.480 they tend to lie. They'll cheat, they will blame, they'll 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:24.240 shift blame on other people even though they're clearly responsible. 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:28.200 They won't take responsibility for anything. They will breadcrumb. They'll 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:30.280 give people less and less and less, and before you 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:32.400 know it, you're like, oh my gosh, they said thank you, 0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:34.480 it was such a good day. You know, like that's 0:11:34.480 --> 0:11:39.560 probably do low a bar. There is a there's a 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:41.960 lot of shame in these relationships, and when they feel shame, 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:44.400 they rage out at other people. So there's a lot 0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:48.320 of volatility, a lot of dysregulation. Narcissistic people often walk 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:50.760 around feeling like victims. If things don't go the way 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:53.240 they want, they're the victim. There can be overt aggression, 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:56.480 there can be passive aggression. That's what narcissism is. And 0:11:56.520 --> 0:11:59.400 like I said, it really belies an easy one line 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:01.960 like narcissistic people or people love themselves, they actually don't 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:04.040 love themselves. At all. There's a lot of self loathing 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:07.200 in a narcissistic person, but that they're not in touch 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:09.400 with all that stuff. So it really comes off as 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:11.200 a person who just says, look at me, I'm so 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:13.480 great and everyone's lucky to know me. 0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:18.400 Well, that last is a bit is impactful. Look at me, 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:21.480 I'm so great, everybody. Well. I had a therapist tell 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:22.839 me this once because I do think I've been in 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:25.560 a relationship with a narcissist in the past and I 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:28.560 wanted to get your read on if this is an 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:33.920 accurate statement or not. This therapist told me, well, narcissism 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:36.679 is a spectrum, Like you know, at one end you 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:38.920 might have an egotistical person. At the other end you 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:42.640 might have like a clinical psychopath. So do you like, 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:45.760 how do we then diagnose people as narcissists or could 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:48.920 you say someone as narcissistic tendencies? Like what if they 0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:51.640 check eight of those boxes but they don't lie, but 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:53.960 they do a bunch of the other things. 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:56.960 Let's lose the word diagnose. Okay, that's the wrong word, 0:12:57.240 --> 0:13:01.520 because a diagnosis is something that a a clinician does. Right, 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:04.920 This isn't a diagnosis, it's a personality style. We might 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:08.280 say we we look at a pattern and we think, like, 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:11.360 there's a lot of these patterns here, so you're you're 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:13.840 the therapist you talk to. Is absolutely right. It is 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:16.280 on a spectrum, and at the mild end, you know 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:24.720 it is a It's like ecocentricity, selfishness, some arrogance, emotional immaturity, 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:29.000 emotional stuntedness at best, sometimes annoying, but if you're in 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:31.360 a relationship with them, it's more problematic when you get 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:33.760 all the way up to the top of the top 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:38.000 of the distribution. Now you're talking about malignant narcissism, which 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:42.079 is coercive and manipulative and exploitative. They take advantage of 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:45.800 people's vulnerabilities. These are people who are isolating. It's scary. 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:49.760 It can even be physically violent. And in between there's 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:52.000 all the other All the other stuff shows up. It 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:55.240 just shows up to varying or lesser degrees. Psychopathy is 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:58.480 its own separate category. While there's a lot of overlap 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:01.720 between narcissism and psychopathy, they're not the same thing. So 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:05.640 I view the top of that narcissism continuum, malignant narcissism 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:07.559 to almost be the last stop on the train where 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:10.040 you switch trains to go over to psychopathy station, which 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:13.040 is real close by, by the way, And so it 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:15.760 is a continuum. And that's why a person who's in 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:18.360 a relationship or maybe has a sibling or a parent 0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:21.640 who's mildly narcissistic, and they were to hear the story 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:24.880 of someone who's in a severely narcissistic relationship, they might 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:28.520 even say, maybe this person isn't narcissistic. My god, they 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:31.080 are sort of mildly narcissistic, but certainly it's not the 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:33.360 same as someone who's in a relationship with someone who's 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:37.040 malignantly narcissistic. So I think it's when I try to 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:39.840 tell people this over and over again, don't get lost 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:42.920 in trying to figure out if this person is narcissistic, 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:46.800 but give yourself permission to call out patterns in that 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:49.760 relationship that are unhealthy. Just call them out to yourself, 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:52.400 because if this person's narcissistic, they're not going to listen 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:55.200 to you. So it's less about that are they narcissistic, 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:57.440 and more about what's happening in this relationship. 0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:01.200 Oh interesting, See, I feel like I feel like from 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:04.800 when I've heard or read it's like, well, with narcissists, like, 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:07.960 there's no fixing them. They can't even see their problems, 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:11.800 there's no them getting better. And I'm kind of like 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:13.480 taking in what you just said that it's more like, well, 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:16.080 look at what's happening specifically in this relationship. 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:18.040 Yeah, but it's still not going to changeeah. I mean, 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:19.840 I agree with it's not going to change, but you 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:22.360 But my point is is that when a person's like, well, 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:24.240 this is happening, this is happening. It's been happening for 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:25.960 ten years, and it happens all the time, and it's happened, 0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:29.280 are they narcissistic? I'm like, it doesn't matter. You are 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:32.000 being emotionally abused. You can call this whatever the hell 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:35.160 you want. It's not okay. Guess is that it probably 0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:37.800 is narcissism. But I think that because we associate the 0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:40.880 narcissism with the part that's not going to change Anyone 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:45.800 who's got these kinds of interpersonally harmful behaviors across situations 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:49.320 consistently and shift blame and if you try to point 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:52.360 things out, they rage even more. That's not going to change. 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:54.840 There's no in if you try to show them what's happening? 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:56.760 They scream at you. More so, how are you ever 0:15:56.800 --> 0:15:59.880 going to facilitate change? There's no possibility. That's what tells 0:15:59.880 --> 0:16:01.000 you the door shut. 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:16.120 Well. And for me, it's a little striking, and I 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:19.040 love that you. You know, you're like, it's not it's 0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:23.040 not you. I think when I kind of got out 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:25.560 of that relationship, like you're in it and you're trying 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:27.640 to make it work because you know, you think I'm 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:30.240 in this relationship and it takes two to tango, and 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:31.920 like everybody has stuff they could work on, and I'm 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:33.640 not perfect either, and you're trying to make it work. 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:37.000 And then you realize that that person, like for me anyway, 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:40.400 was not putting in any effort and nothing was changing. 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:43.280 And so then that was when I got out of it, 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:47.640 and I was like, whoa, maybe I am Like I 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:49.760 had been questioning if I myself was capable of a 0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:51.960 healthy relationship, and I got out of it, and then 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:56.520 I'm like, oh no, wait, it wasn't me. I am kidding. 0:16:57.160 --> 0:16:59.200 And it's a little striking because I also think of 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:02.200 myself as a person, and so then I think, but 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:05.440 how did I wind up in that? And I wanted 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:07.280 to ask you about that, because it's because of what 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:09.119 you mentioned earlier when you said that you'd seen in 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:11.439 your own life, maybe you had some people like that 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:13.840 in your own life as well. So was that a 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:16.160 little Did you have an experience like that where you thought, wait, 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:18.119 how did I wind up here? Now? 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:20.160 All the time? I mean every time, but I guess 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:21.880 my question would be too, I'll put it right back 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:24.119 at you. How did you think you ended up there? 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:26.440 What did you What was the answer for yourself? 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:30.800 I think that I had lost my dad and so 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:33.159 I was in a state of grief and didn't realize it. 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:36.879 And then I got very close with the person's family 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:39.040 very quickly, and really I kind of fell in love 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:41.680 with the family more than him. And then as time 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:44.240 went on, I was like, oh wait, I wasn't even 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:46.240 like in this relationship, and I kind of saw he 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:46.760 really was. 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:49.439 I'm so glad you brought that up. 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:49.640 Lord. 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:52.000 Actually, it's a really important point because a lot of 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:55.000 people wonder, like what happened, like, let me play it out? 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:57.159 In fact, you just lay out laid out here a 0:17:57.240 --> 0:17:59.879 really important exercise I do with survivors, which is this 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:02.600 idea of let's play out this timeline and you just 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:05.080 you know, you you identified such an important point here, 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:08.040 which was when I met him, I had you know, 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:11.520 I was going through this really transitional phase in my life, 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:15.919 and I always this is why when you when you 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:19.640 meet new when you're entering relationships after a big breakup, 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:22.280 a move to a new city, a major loss in 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:25.200 your family, you have to be very careful because you're 0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:26.760 not on your game in the same way, and you're 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:31.199 often looking for something that's actually beyond traditional intimacy, like 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:35.120 a place to land, a place to belong, and because 0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:37.679 of that, you may not miss you, and so you 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:39.960 may not see some of the patterns, like a person 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:42.439 moving to a new city is just so relieved to 0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:44.639 have a place, like a person to be in touch 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:48.320 with that we might be more likely to excuse things 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:50.240 that we wouldn't have if we were in a much 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:53.320 more sort of unsteady footing, we'd be like that, not okay, 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:56.480 but somehow in the newer, in that transitional space or 0:18:56.480 --> 0:18:58.720 when we're trying to find something else, we're more likely 0:18:58.760 --> 0:19:01.280 to do it. So it's it's interesting because being in 0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:04.400 a transitional space like that, or being in a rush 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:06.639 like people are like Okay, I'm thirty six. I got 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:09.320 to get me into a relationship kind of thing. Is 0:19:09.640 --> 0:19:13.960 that is also a tricky spot because people will be like, Okay, 0:19:14.359 --> 0:19:16.560 this person's manning four out of the things on my list. 0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:18.840 That's enough, and you're like, okay, we'll deal with the 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:20.760 rest of that later. It's almost like I'm just gonna 0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:22.440 put everything in a closet and deal with it later. 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:24.280 I'm like, that's going to catch up on you. And 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:27.199 so that's with the That's one of the issues is 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:29.959 that you by understanding that how so many of us 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:32.960 when we go back to that origin story, there was 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:36.159 either a we were drawn and I'm guessing even with 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:38.679 your former partner, there was something quite compelling. You were 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:43.080 drawn to, whether they were attractive, interesting, confident, charming, charismatic. 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:46.000 Sometimes even people say it's interesting. They weren't any of 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:48.760 those things, but they were there seemed to be like 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:52.960 this kind of underdog, unlucky feel. And the person says, 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:55.040 and I own it. I'm a fixer and I wanted 0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:57.119