Speaker 1: This is the most dramatic podcast ever and iHeartRadio podcast.
Speaker 2: Everybody. Welcome to the most dramatic podcast ever. I am
Speaker 2: Lauren Zima. Here solo in, as my husband would say,
Speaker 2: the home office of Austin, Texas. Because my husband is out.
Speaker 2: I'm going to call him out. He's out, very near
Speaker 2: to the home office. But playing golf, and that feels right,
Speaker 2: doesn't it. It's okay. We love him, we support him.
Speaker 2: And here's the thing. He is playing in something he
Speaker 2: looks forward to so much. I've just learned about it.
Speaker 2: You may know about it. It's called a member guest
Speaker 2: golf tournament, and it is very cute. It is a
Speaker 2: time when he gets to bring in his best friend
Speaker 2: from California to Texas to visit us and play in
Speaker 2: this golf tournament. Chris is the member and his best
Speaker 2: friendship is the guest, and so it's a beautiful thing.
Speaker 2: It's like watching two little guys get to have a
Speaker 2: playdate with a friend who moved away, or seeing two
Speaker 2: friends reunited summer camp a year, and it's just lovely.
Speaker 2: And I am a big proponent of friendships and their
Speaker 2: importance in your romantic relationship. I love for Chris to
Speaker 2: have time with his guy friends for me to have
Speaker 2: time with my girlfriends. And that's actually something we get
Speaker 2: into on the podcast today, the importance of friendships and
Speaker 2: your social structure in making sure you're not in a
Speaker 2: dangerous romantic relationship. And that comes from our guest doctor Romney.
Speaker 2: She is so incredible. We've been working on getting around
Speaker 2: the podcast for a minute because she's very booked and busy.
Speaker 2: She is a clinical psychologist, a retired professor of psychology,
Speaker 2: a best selling author. Her books include Don't You Know
Speaker 2: Who I Am? How to Stay Sane in the Era
Speaker 2: of Narcissism, Entitlement, and Inclivity. So that's what we're going
Speaker 2: to hit the nail on the head with today is narcissism.
Speaker 2: She through her research and her work, has basically become
Speaker 2: one of the experts of the people the forefront of
Speaker 2: the research on narcissism. And I feel like narcissism is
Speaker 2: both obviously a very real thing, but then kind of
Speaker 2: this buzzword that we hear a lot lately, especially like
Speaker 2: in the worlds that Chris and I operate in of
Speaker 2: reality TV. You certainly hear people accusing others of being narcissists,
Speaker 2: And so the question is like, how real is it?
Speaker 2: How many people are really narcissists? How much of a
Speaker 2: buzzword is it? How much are we all encountering it
Speaker 2: and don't know it. If you think you or a
Speaker 2: friend might be in a narcissistic relationship, this podcast is
Speaker 2: really going to help you. So Doctor Romney was incredible.
Speaker 2: She answered so many questions, gave so many good takeaways,
Speaker 2: and let's welcome her. Now, all right, doctor Romney, welcome.
Speaker 2: I am so excited to talk to you because I
Speaker 2: feel like if there's one person who pops up everywhere
Speaker 2: on my Instagram in the algorithm with these incredible takeaways
Speaker 2: on narcissism, it is you. So now, first I want
Speaker 2: to ask you how did you become I mean, you've
Speaker 2: written multiple books about narcissism. How did you become the
Speaker 2: authority on narcissism? And is it something you wanted to
Speaker 2: become or did it just happen?
Speaker 3: When you study narcissism, you never want to say you're
Speaker 3: the authority on it because then you're thinking, no, I
Speaker 3: don't want to be grandiose, but I've been doing this
Speaker 3: for a long time and I wish it was like
Speaker 3: a great origin story. It's kind of boring. I came
Speaker 3: into it as an academic researcher and then as a
Speaker 3: practicing therapist, and in those spaces it was sort of
Speaker 3: it was one of those things where you like, the
Speaker 3: missing puzzle piece seems so easy, right, I'm like, well,
Speaker 3: if we explain narcissism, or we thought about this is narcissism,
Speaker 3: it all makes sense. But there was a lot of
Speaker 3: resistance to it. You know. Where I really noticed is
Speaker 3: like the field of mental health didn't even want to
Speaker 3: take this on, and there was a lot of sort
Speaker 3: of being apologists for this behavior. Well maybe they have
Speaker 3: a reason. I'm like, there's no reason to emotionally abuse someone, Like,
Speaker 3: you're never going to come up with a rationale for
Speaker 3: that for me. And so I got so I got
Speaker 3: into it again as a researcher and as a therapist,
Speaker 3: and it wasn't until many years later that I kind
Speaker 3: of opened my eyes to these patterns were definitely in
Speaker 3: my life too, and even my unwillingness to want to
Speaker 3: see it. That really took me much to get much
Speaker 3: more interested in what was happening to people in these relationships.
Speaker 3: Lots of people. I've written about narcissism, but what happens
Speaker 3: to people when they're in a narcissistic relationship. There was
Speaker 3: much much less on that. So that was where That's
Speaker 3: how I came into it, and I was really struck
Speaker 3: by how much people are helped when they understand what
Speaker 3: this is about, and above all else that it's not
Speaker 3: their fault someone else. If someone else is treating you badly,
Speaker 3: that's not your fault. They're engaging in a behavior. And
Speaker 3: if you attempt to communicate with them and you get
Speaker 3: worse treatment back, you got a real problem on your hands.
Speaker 3: But then it's not you.
Speaker 2: Wow. Even from that, I have so much to want
Speaker 2: to ask you before I forget it. What's striking to
Speaker 2: me there is that you said there was a resistance
Speaker 2: to acknowledge narcissism. Because I feel like today and I
Speaker 2: did want to ask you about this, but today it
Speaker 2: kind of feels like it's everywhere, maybe even and I
Speaker 2: do want your opinion, but maybe even to the point
Speaker 2: of like, are we over using it? So what was
Speaker 2: the shift there? Why is it more acceptable now?
Speaker 3: I don't. I mean, I think that the shift has
Speaker 3: been I think the shifts in the political landscape. I
Speaker 3: think from twenty sixteen forward, and not just in the
Speaker 3: United States, but throughout the world, there were leadership shifts
Speaker 3: that meant journalists were using this word more.
Speaker 2: I think that you mean, we got some narcissistic leaders
Speaker 2: in our Yeah.
Speaker 3: I'm trying to be I'm trying to be as both
Speaker 3: sides of the aisle here as I can be. Right
Speaker 3: we are and it's not and it's not just in
Speaker 3: presidential or prime minister or not even just in the US.
Speaker 3: It's not just its senates, it's senators, it's congress people,
Speaker 3: it's you know, it's all of it. It's not just there.
Speaker 3: We see it more in the celebrity world. To be
Speaker 3: frank with you, I mean, I think that we're in
Speaker 3: an era where we almost celebrate, revere, incentivize, and reward
Speaker 3: narcissistic behavior. The more outlanders, the more grandiose, the more
Speaker 3: attendency making we're standing up in applouding. I think of
Speaker 3: the influencer economy, this is basically somebody who's saying, look
Speaker 3: at me, look at me, look at me, and they're
Speaker 3: they're making a lot of money at well. Once upon
Speaker 3: a time, wasn't sort of a viable pathway to a career.
Speaker 3: And yet people, the best influencers, I would imagine, at
Speaker 3: some level, are able to sort of just sort of
Speaker 3: make it about them. So in a strange way, narcissism
Speaker 3: could incentivize a person being more economically successful in our
Speaker 3: new sort of technologically driven economy. So I think though
Speaker 3: the word coming more into the purview was that political shift.
Speaker 3: I really believe it was that because as much as
Speaker 3: journalists tried to avoid using it, you couldn't avoid it,
Speaker 3: because it was the word that worked. And then I
Speaker 3: think what happened was, you know, I mean, there were
Speaker 3: people out there, myself included, who id YouTube channels, and
Speaker 3: people were talking more about it, and then it helped
Speaker 3: people make sense of stuff, and that of course led
Speaker 3: to a lot of people wanting to talk about it.
Speaker 3: But then the problem is, and this has always been
Speaker 3: the problem with narcissism, it's a subtle topic. It's not
Speaker 3: as simple as this is a person who brags, this
Speaker 3: is a person who looks in the mirror or a lot,
Speaker 3: this is a person who's superficial, or this is a
Speaker 3: person who's who's egocentric. It's not that simple. It's so
Speaker 3: much more subtle. And when we get into the weeds
Speaker 3: of the subtlety, that's when people really feel understood. But
Speaker 3: when we make it into more this simplistic black and white,
Speaker 3: like my boyfriend cheated on me, he's narcissistic, I'm like,
Speaker 3: your boyfriend cheated on you. But we're gonna have to
Speaker 3: ask a few more questions to figure out if this
Speaker 3: guy's narcissistic. That was not a nice thing to do,
Speaker 3: but not everyone who does that is narcissistic. So I
Speaker 3: think people are using the word as a hammer to
Speaker 3: put people down, to paint themselves as the person who's suffering.
Speaker 3: And it's not that simple. And I think the subtlety
Speaker 3: means that we have to have a different kind of
Speaker 3: a conversation. Unfortunately, the Internet and social media aren't built
Speaker 3: for subtlety.
Speaker 2: So do you think the word is being overused now
Speaker 2: or do you think it's okay?
Speaker 3: I do. I think that there are people who are
Speaker 3: using it to identify one behavior in a relationship right
Speaker 3: or they're using it to say, oh my gosh, you
Speaker 3: takes so many selfie, she's narcissistic. And I'll say slow down.
Speaker 3: Just because a person posts a lot of selfies. Am
Speaker 3: I willing to up my bet that they might be narcissistic? Sure?
Speaker 3: But am I willing to go all in on that bet. No.
Speaker 3: I mean because it could very well be someone's posting
Speaker 3: a lot of selfies I don't know, because they think
Speaker 3: it's fun. But in the same breath, in the other
Speaker 3: parts of their life, they're empathic, they're compassionate, they don't
Speaker 3: believe they deserve special treatment, they're emotionally regulated, they don't
Speaker 3: lash out at other people. So if a person does
Speaker 3: that and post selfies, it's just like, I don't know,
Speaker 3: Maybe that's our hobby, that's what they like to do,
Speaker 3: maybe they like to share their lives. But if they're
Speaker 3: not harming other people in their life, that this is
Speaker 3: something I like to do. That's very, very different than
Speaker 3: the person who's posting selfies and raging at people for
Speaker 3: not liking their pictures and being jealous of other people
Speaker 3: who are posting pictures and making fun of other people's
Speaker 3: pictures and feeling you know, entitled to people paying attention
Speaker 3: to their special things. Like it's that it's not just
Speaker 3: the selfies, it's not just the infidelities. It's not just
Speaker 3: like people who might. I don't know, like one, because
Speaker 3: a lot on their appearance could be and like I said,
Speaker 3: it ups the probability, but it's not a guarantee. And
Speaker 3: I think we have to be careful that if somebody
Speaker 3: does one selfish thing. My sister didn't come to my
Speaker 3: birthday party, she's so narcissistic. I want to say, can
Speaker 3: you tell me a little bit more about your sister?
Speaker 3: And then i'd have to find now if you keep
Speaker 3: telling me that this is just one of a thousand
Speaker 3: of these instances, maybe so, But if that's the thing
Speaker 3: your sister did, and otherwise you've had a good relationship
Speaker 3: with her, and the first time she disappoints you, you're
Speaker 3: calling her narcissistic. Yeah, that's not how that works.
Speaker 2: So well, I want to ask you a tough question
Speaker 2: because you're just explaining how subtle it is and how
Speaker 2: you need all this information to diagnose it or label
Speaker 2: someone that. But how do you define narcissism? Then if
Speaker 2: you have to give a simple definition just to kind
Speaker 2: of get people on the same baseline page, what is narcissism?
Speaker 2: What is a narcissist?
Speaker 3: I think right there is there is no simple definition.
Speaker 3: I think that's whatever wants they want the one liner, right,
Speaker 3: I mean like I'm going to give you a run
Speaker 3: on sentence. A personality stable, consistent, what we call pervasive.
Speaker 3: It cuts across all situations. This is how the person
Speaker 3: is most of the time, especially in unguarded circumstances like
Speaker 3: people close to them, Right, And so the things that
Speaker 3: show up are lack of empathy, self centeredness, grandiosity, arrogance, entitlement,
Speaker 3: excessive need for admiration and validation. They need to be
Speaker 3: in control, they need to be the ones in power.
Speaker 3: And the way this shows up in relationships it again
Speaker 3: they can be very again domineering and controlling. But the
Speaker 3: thing you got to remember too is a lot of
Speaker 3: narcissistic people can be charming and charismatic, confident, compelling, attractive.
Speaker 3: There's something that's drawing us to them and what makes
Speaker 3: them sort of it allows them sort of enter situations easily.
Speaker 3: But at the core of narcissism is a tremendous insecurity
Speaker 3: and that's the piece that sometimes makes people feel bad like, oh,
Speaker 3: if they're insecure, well I shouldn't. I shouldn't be dismissive.
Speaker 3: So it's not about being dismissive it's about being willing
Speaker 3: to clock their behavior is unacceptable. What's their behavior? Their
Speaker 3: behavior tends to be very manipulative, dismissive, invalidating gas lighting.
Speaker 3: They get angry very quickly if they're frustrated, if they're disappointed,
Speaker 3: they tend to lie. They'll cheat, they will blame, they'll
Speaker 3: shift blame on other people even though they're clearly responsible.
Speaker 3: They won't take responsibility for anything. They will breadcrumb. They'll
Speaker 3: give people less and less and less, and before you
Speaker 3: know it, you're like, oh my gosh, they said thank you,
Speaker 3: it was such a good day. You know, like that's
Speaker 3: probably do low a bar. There is a there's a
Speaker 3: lot of shame in these relationships, and when they feel shame,
Speaker 3: they rage out at other people. So there's a lot
Speaker 3: of volatility, a lot of dysregulation. Narcissistic people often walk
Speaker 3: around feeling like victims. If things don't go the way
Speaker 3: they want, they're the victim. There can be overt aggression,
Speaker 3: there can be passive aggression. That's what narcissism is. And
Speaker 3: like I said, it really belies an easy one line
Speaker 3: like narcissistic people or people love themselves, they actually don't
Speaker 3: love themselves. At all. There's a lot of self loathing
Speaker 3: in a narcissistic person, but that they're not in touch
Speaker 3: with all that stuff. So it really comes off as
Speaker 3: a person who just says, look at me, I'm so
Speaker 3: great and everyone's lucky to know me.
Speaker 2: Well, that last is a bit is impactful. Look at me,
Speaker 2: I'm so great, everybody. Well. I had a therapist tell
Speaker 2: me this once because I do think I've been in
Speaker 2: a relationship with a narcissist in the past and I
Speaker 2: wanted to get your read on if this is an
Speaker 2: accurate statement or not. This therapist told me, well, narcissism
Speaker 2: is a spectrum, Like you know, at one end you
Speaker 2: might have an egotistical person. At the other end you
Speaker 2: might have like a clinical psychopath. So do you like,
Speaker 2: how do we then diagnose people as narcissists or could
Speaker 2: you say someone as narcissistic tendencies? Like what if they
Speaker 2: check eight of those boxes but they don't lie, but
Speaker 2: they do a bunch of the other things.
Speaker 3: Let's lose the word diagnose. Okay, that's the wrong word,
Speaker 3: because a diagnosis is something that a a clinician does. Right,
Speaker 3: This isn't a diagnosis, it's a personality style. We might
Speaker 3: say we we look at a pattern and we think, like,
Speaker 3: there's a lot of these patterns here, so you're you're
Speaker 3: the therapist you talk to. Is absolutely right. It is
Speaker 3: on a spectrum, and at the mild end, you know
Speaker 3: it is a It's like ecocentricity, selfishness, some arrogance, emotional immaturity,
Speaker 3: emotional stuntedness at best, sometimes annoying, but if you're in
Speaker 3: a relationship with them, it's more problematic when you get
Speaker 3: all the way up to the top of the top
Speaker 3: of the distribution. Now you're talking about malignant narcissism, which
Speaker 3: is coercive and manipulative and exploitative. They take advantage of
Speaker 3: people's vulnerabilities. These are people who are isolating. It's scary.
Speaker 3: It can even be physically violent. And in between there's
Speaker 3: all the other All the other stuff shows up. It
Speaker 3: just shows up to varying or lesser degrees. Psychopathy is
Speaker 3: its own separate category. While there's a lot of overlap
Speaker 3: between narcissism and psychopathy, they're not the same thing. So
Speaker 3: I view the top of that narcissism continuum, malignant narcissism
Speaker 3: to almost be the last stop on the train where
Speaker 3: you switch trains to go over to psychopathy station, which
Speaker 3: is real close by, by the way, And so it
Speaker 3: is a continuum. And that's why a person who's in
Speaker 3: a relationship or maybe has a sibling or a parent
Speaker 3: who's mildly narcissistic, and they were to hear the story
Speaker 3: of someone who's in a severely narcissistic relationship, they might
Speaker 3: even say, maybe this person isn't narcissistic. My god, they
Speaker 3: are sort of mildly narcissistic, but certainly it's not the
Speaker 3: same as someone who's in a relationship with someone who's
Speaker 3: malignantly narcissistic. So I think it's when I try to
Speaker 3: tell people this over and over again, don't get lost
Speaker 3: in trying to figure out if this person is narcissistic,
Speaker 3: but give yourself permission to call out patterns in that
Speaker 3: relationship that are unhealthy. Just call them out to yourself,
Speaker 3: because if this person's narcissistic, they're not going to listen
Speaker 3: to you. So it's less about that are they narcissistic,
Speaker 3: and more about what's happening in this relationship.
Speaker 2: Oh interesting, See, I feel like I feel like from
Speaker 2: when I've heard or read it's like, well, with narcissists, like,
Speaker 2: there's no fixing them. They can't even see their problems,
Speaker 2: there's no them getting better. And I'm kind of like
Speaker 2: taking in what you just said that it's more like, well,
Speaker 2: look at what's happening specifically in this relationship.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's still not going to changeeah. I mean,
Speaker 3: I agree with it's not going to change, but you
Speaker 3: But my point is is that when a person's like, well,
Speaker 3: this is happening, this is happening. It's been happening for
Speaker 3: ten years, and it happens all the time, and it's happened,
Speaker 3: are they narcissistic? I'm like, it doesn't matter. You are
Speaker 3: being emotionally abused. You can call this whatever the hell
Speaker 3: you want. It's not okay. Guess is that it probably
Speaker 3: is narcissism. But I think that because we associate the
Speaker 3: narcissism with the part that's not going to change Anyone
Speaker 3: who's got these kinds of interpersonally harmful behaviors across situations
Speaker 3: consistently and shift blame and if you try to point
Speaker 3: things out, they rage even more. That's not going to change.
Speaker 3: There's no in if you try to show them what's happening?
Speaker 3: They scream at you. More so, how are you ever
Speaker 3: going to facilitate change? There's no possibility. That's what tells
Speaker 3: you the door shut.
Speaker 2: Well. And for me, it's a little striking, and I
Speaker 2: love that you. You know, you're like, it's not it's
Speaker 2: not you. I think when I kind of got out
Speaker 2: of that relationship, like you're in it and you're trying
Speaker 2: to make it work because you know, you think I'm
Speaker 2: in this relationship and it takes two to tango, and
Speaker 2: like everybody has stuff they could work on, and I'm
Speaker 2: not perfect either, and you're trying to make it work.
Speaker 2: And then you realize that that person, like for me anyway,
Speaker 2: was not putting in any effort and nothing was changing.
Speaker 2: And so then that was when I got out of it,
Speaker 2: and I was like, whoa, maybe I am Like I
Speaker 2: had been questioning if I myself was capable of a
Speaker 2: healthy relationship, and I got out of it, and then
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh no, wait, it wasn't me. I am kidding.
Speaker 2: And it's a little striking because I also think of
Speaker 2: myself as a person, and so then I think, but
Speaker 2: how did I wind up in that? And I wanted
Speaker 2: to ask you about that, because it's because of what
Speaker 2: you mentioned earlier when you said that you'd seen in
Speaker 2: your own life, maybe you had some people like that
Speaker 2: in your own life as well. So was that a
Speaker 2: little Did you have an experience like that where you thought, wait,
Speaker 2: how did I wind up here? Now?
Speaker 3: All the time? I mean every time, but I guess
Speaker 3: my question would be too, I'll put it right back
Speaker 3: at you. How did you think you ended up there?
Speaker 3: What did you What was the answer for yourself?
Speaker 2: I think that I had lost my dad and so
Speaker 2: I was in a state of grief and didn't realize it.
Speaker 2: And then I got very close with the person's family
Speaker 2: very quickly, and really I kind of fell in love
Speaker 2: with the family more than him. And then as time
Speaker 2: went on, I was like, oh wait, I wasn't even
Speaker 2: like in this relationship, and I kind of saw he
Speaker 2: really was.
Speaker 3: I'm so glad you brought that up.
Speaker 2: Lord.
Speaker 3: Actually, it's a really important point because a lot of
Speaker 3: people wonder, like what happened, like, let me play it out?
Speaker 3: In fact, you just lay out laid out here a
Speaker 3: really important exercise I do with survivors, which is this
Speaker 3: idea of let's play out this timeline and you just
Speaker 3: you know, you you identified such an important point here,
Speaker 3: which was when I met him, I had you know,
Speaker 3: I was going through this really transitional phase in my life,
Speaker 3: and I always this is why when you when you
Speaker 3: meet new when you're entering relationships after a big breakup,
Speaker 3: a move to a new city, a major loss in
Speaker 3: your family, you have to be very careful because you're
Speaker 3: not on your game in the same way, and you're
Speaker 3: often looking for something that's actually beyond traditional intimacy, like
Speaker 3: a place to land, a place to belong, and because
Speaker 3: of that, you may not miss you, and so you
Speaker 3: may not see some of the patterns, like a person
Speaker 3: moving to a new city is just so relieved to
Speaker 3: have a place, like a person to be in touch
Speaker 3: with that we might be more likely to excuse things
Speaker 3: that we wouldn't have if we were in a much
Speaker 3: more sort of unsteady footing, we'd be like that, not okay,
Speaker 3: but somehow in the newer, in that transitional space or
Speaker 3: when we're trying to find something else, we're more likely
Speaker 3: to do it. So it's it's interesting because being in
Speaker 3: a transitional space like that, or being in a rush
Speaker 3: like people are like Okay, I'm thirty six. I got
Speaker 3: to get me into a relationship kind of thing. Is
Speaker 3: that is also a tricky spot because people will be like, Okay,
Speaker 3: this person's manning four out of the things on my list.
Speaker 3: That's enough, and you're like, okay, we'll deal with the
Speaker 3: rest of that later. It's almost like I'm just gonna
Speaker 3: put everything in a closet and deal with it later.
Speaker 3: I'm like, that's going to catch up on you. And
Speaker 3: so that's with the That's one of the issues is
Speaker 3: that you by understanding that how so many of us
Speaker 3: when we go back to that origin story, there was
Speaker 3: either a we were drawn and I'm guessing even with
Speaker 3: your former partner, there was something quite compelling. You were
Speaker 3: drawn to, whether they were attractive, interesting, confident, charming, charismatic.
Speaker 3: Sometimes even people say it's interesting. They weren't any of
Speaker 3: those things, but they were there seemed to be like
Speaker 3: this kind of underdog, unlucky feel. And the person says,
Speaker 3: and I own it. I'm a fixer and I wanted
Speaker 3: to get in there and give them a car and
Speaker 3: give them a place to live and help them. And
Speaker 3: they said, I I feel alive when I help people.
Speaker 3: The problem is then instead, they don't even identify it
Speaker 3: as sort of the love bombing, because it's more of
Speaker 3: this kind of I was helping them, and I felt
Speaker 3: good about it, and I could see some shifts, and
Speaker 3: then they were in this relationship with someone who's always
Speaker 3: a victim and passive aggressive, and you're like, huh, So
Speaker 3: my point is is that all of us are attracted
Speaker 3: to narcissistic people because they're attractive. Okay, all of us are,
Speaker 3: in our fashion attractive to narcissistic people because we're all
Speaker 3: attractive in our own unique ways, right, we all represent
Speaker 3: different kinds of supply. The real question and the real
Speaker 3: problem learning comes down to who gets stuck in these
Speaker 3: relationships because some people will see those patterns and say, ye, no,
Speaker 3: this isn't cool and I'm going to get out. But
Speaker 3: there's things about us that make us more vulnerable to
Speaker 3: getting stuck, and that could be having had narcissistic parents
Speaker 3: and early history of trauma, being a forgiver, like believing
Speaker 3: I'm going to just keep giving them second chances, being
Speaker 3: a rescue were, being optimistic, being really empathic. All of
Speaker 3: those things make you more vulnerable to getting stuck. So
Speaker 3: you have these vulnerabilities to getting into the first place,
Speaker 3: but more importantly, we have vulnerabilities to getting stuck. And
Speaker 3: those are the more meaningful ones because I think we
Speaker 3: all at some level are attracted to them, and it
Speaker 3: made sense what we were attracted to. But if we're at
Speaker 3: all in a tricky spot. And I know for some
Speaker 3: folks i've met, I was in a transitional phase and
Speaker 3: that's what made me. That's what made me sort of
Speaker 3: off my game. And that's why I always say, if
Speaker 3: you're gonna, if you're going to go out there and
Speaker 3: try to meet people, it's like the Olympics, Like you
Speaker 3: got to be in your touch, your your fighting shape
Speaker 3: and weight, Like you've got to be meaning that you've
Speaker 3: got to be in a good place, right, Like a
Speaker 3: relationship is never a substitute for a crappy life.
Speaker 2: Wow, the title of your next book right there? You
Speaker 2: know what can you expand on that for me and
Speaker 2: really break it down, like what what place should people
Speaker 2: be in when they're looking for a relationship. What are
Speaker 2: some hallmarks of like their mental state and where they're
Speaker 2: at in their life When it's like, okay, you can
Speaker 2: now go have a good, healthy relationship, because I think
Speaker 2: so often we're out there trying to find the right person,
Speaker 2: not making sure that we're in the right place for
Speaker 2: the right relationship.
Speaker 3: So right place would be a solid social support network
Speaker 3: around you, robust friendships if you're fortunate, family relationships called
Speaker 3: collegial relationships, member, you know, being a part of whatever
Speaker 3: community groups, whatever your social network is. That that's you've
Speaker 3: got to have that number one. That's got to be
Speaker 3: in place, because social other people, social support, those social
Speaker 3: networks are so important, and the idea of a one
Speaker 3: person relationship, I think a lot of people delude themselves
Speaker 3: like if I've got my person, I'll be fine. The
Speaker 3: hell you will. Your network is actually gonna end up
Speaker 3: being more important. That's number one. Number two is that
Speaker 3: you have you have things in your life that are yours,
Speaker 3: whether they're meaningful and purposeful, through your work, through your
Speaker 3: things you do in your community, through creative endeavors, things
Speaker 3: that matter to you that you know like this is
Speaker 3: my this is my thing, like this and I'm going
Speaker 3: to do it, and I'm going to it matters to
Speaker 3: me to build it in my life. That you're very
Speaker 3: aware that you've got that piece in that you are
Speaker 3: in a you've got healthy routines. I know it sounds silly, like, oh,
Speaker 3: come to me, like brush your teeth. Yeah, kind of
Speaker 3: brush your teeth, Like you've got things like you do,
Speaker 3: and you've got rhythms in your life. That gets back
Speaker 3: to that transitional space because one and you don't have
Speaker 3: to live someplace twenty five years of a routine. It's
Speaker 3: just that you've got things in your life that are
Speaker 3: your touchstones and your landmarks, and they're predictable and you
Speaker 3: value those and I think that those things we kind
Speaker 3: of have to have. Those things that obviously we have
Speaker 3: to address our mental health. Like a person who is
Speaker 3: whatever mental health issues may be coming up that they
Speaker 3: feel like they haven't addressed, it would be good to
Speaker 3: address those because those sorts of things, too can lead
Speaker 3: someone to doubt their judgment with a new person or
Speaker 3: almost sometimes sell themselves short as they're meeting people. Those
Speaker 3: things matter. But I'm gonna be serious with you, girl,
Speaker 3: like I have to say I've met narcissistic people when
Speaker 3: I was at the top of my game, and that
Speaker 3: I have to say to a lot of people listening
Speaker 3: to this. I think there's people saying, you know, when
Speaker 3: I met the narcissistic person I was. I loved my job,
Speaker 3: I love my apartment, I love my friends. So while
Speaker 3: those things are important, they're not a narcissism antidote effect
Speaker 3: of anything. People kind of almost get I don't want
Speaker 3: to say cocky, but cocky where they think like, I'm
Speaker 3: in a great place. And so when the things start happening,
Speaker 3: because a narcissistic relationship isn't a switch that goes on,
Speaker 3: We're having a great relationship. Now I'm going to gaslight
Speaker 3: you twenty times a day. It's a slow indoctrination, and
Speaker 3: so you're in this great thing and it kind of
Speaker 3: gets worse slowly. I always say it starts off like
Speaker 3: ninety nine percent good and maybe one percent bad. Then
Speaker 3: it goes down to ninety percent good, ten percent bad,
Speaker 3: eighty percent good, twenty percent bad, seventy thirty, sixty, forty.
Speaker 3: One day you wake up, it's fifty to fifty. By
Speaker 3: fifty to fifty, though, you're probably doing a lot of
Speaker 3: mental heavy lifting around justifying and rationalizing. And maybe it's
Speaker 3: me and maybe I'm being too demand or maybe I'm
Speaker 3: being too selfish about wanting to hold onto my former
Speaker 3: life forty sixty thirty seventy one day you wake up
Speaker 3: and you're at ten ninety and it's just not a
Speaker 3: good scene. And every so often maybe there's a less
Speaker 3: abusive day or something.
Speaker 2: And then that makes you hold on.
Speaker 3: You're like, it makes you hold on, like, well, they
Speaker 3: didn't yell at me today, right, Like it's not even
Speaker 3: like we had great sex. It's like they didn't yell
Speaker 3: at me, and that's a good day.
Speaker 2: The bar is on the floor, the bars the.
Speaker 3: Bar is not on the floor. The bar is subterraneous.
Speaker 3: It's like under the ground.
Speaker 2: Is the narcissist conscious of turning that dial up slowly
Speaker 2: or is it just in their nature and that's what
Speaker 2: they do in relationships.
Speaker 3: I think that it's it's in their nature. I don't
Speaker 3: think it's like they've got a calendar like, okay, you know,
Speaker 3: June seventeenth, let's start the devalue phase. It's not that.
Speaker 3: I think what happens is for narcissistic people are very
Speaker 3: novelty seeking, so they get bored easily, and so once
Speaker 3: they have, like I say, narcissistic supply gets stale. But
Speaker 3: that doesn't mean they want to throw it out. They're
Speaker 3: like costco. They just keep lots of stuff on the shelf,
Speaker 3: and so they will keep you around because you serve
Speaker 3: some function to them. You might be a source of status,
Speaker 3: You might connect them to certain people. You might be predictable,
Speaker 3: You might make them look good in public because now
Speaker 3: they have a fiance or they have a girlfriend or
Speaker 3: a wife or a partner or whatever. And so you
Speaker 3: serve a function, you're part of a performance, and so
Speaker 3: they're not ready to give up your part. But it's
Speaker 3: almost like once they know they've got you. I always
Speaker 3: say it's like a butterfly under glass. Once they capture
Speaker 3: the butterfly under glass, they kind of put it on
Speaker 3: a shelf and forget about it. And so they chase
Speaker 3: you for a while to get you and the net
Speaker 3: and get you under the glass. And once they get
Speaker 3: you under the glass, you're a beautiful thing that sits
Speaker 3: on the shelf.
Speaker 2: Oh this is hitting me so hard right now. Yeah. Wow,
Speaker 2: I feel like you just answered a part something for
Speaker 2: me about that relationship, because I wondered, like why did
Speaker 2: he bother? Like I was like, you know, if you
Speaker 2: want to live your life, like go live that way,
Speaker 2: why did you bother to be in a committed relationship
Speaker 2: with me, you know, if it wasn't like really what
Speaker 2: you wanted if you want to be that Like, this
Speaker 2: makes so much sense. The status collection and the butterfly
Speaker 2: under the glass, Well we got a fly free think,
Speaker 2: you know. And by the way, I'm like, thank god
Speaker 2: I got out. I'm so happy now. It taught me
Speaker 2: so much. I really believe, like we have to learn
Speaker 2: where we've been, and if you're happy where you are,
Speaker 2: you can't regret where you've been because it led me here.
Speaker 2: But what how much do people have to look out
Speaker 2: for this? Like is there data on what percentage of
Speaker 2: people out there are on that narcissism spectrum or or
Speaker 2: I don't know if it if maybe you give me
Speaker 2: that number by saying they would be narcissists holy or
Speaker 2: just somewhere on the spectrum. What's the percentage?
Speaker 3: We don't have great data and actually my my myself
Speaker 3: and my collaborator, doctor Heather Harris, we collected some data
Speaker 3: and we did we did what was called a general
Speaker 3: population survey, so instead of just focusing on a specific group,
Speaker 3: we went out It's like almost like dipping a ladel
Speaker 3: into the ocean and pulling it out like you're from
Speaker 3: the biggest body of water instead of just a tiny
Speaker 3: little well. And in that sample, and this is really
Speaker 3: rough numbers, we just collected this data. What we were
Speaker 3: finding was, you know, we were finding rates in the
Speaker 3: way we were measuring it, of about ten percent, so
Speaker 3: one in ten, one in ten people who are narcissistic
Speaker 3: enough where you'd notice it where it caused problems in
Speaker 3: a relationship kind of thing. Right, So it's not so
Speaker 3: mild that people would be like whatever, they like their
Speaker 3: selfies or you know, they're obsessed with getting plastic surgery
Speaker 3: or whatever. You know, the people like, it's not they're
Speaker 3: not mean, they're sort of ridiculous, but that's about it.
Speaker 3: The one in ten is enough that people are like, yeah, no,
Speaker 3: this isn't cool, Like there is manipulation, There is that
Speaker 3: kind of thing. So that's I think that's not a
Speaker 3: bad guess. Now, in that ten percent, we have the
Speaker 3: whole range from the mild to the severe. If I
Speaker 3: would say the severe probably one to three percent of
Speaker 3: the total. You know, I would say that the milder one,
Speaker 3: you know, the milder ones are all like it's probably
Speaker 3: pretty even, but maybe the least the least would be
Speaker 3: the one percent of the entire population would be the
Speaker 3: severe one to two percent, and then we'd see the
Speaker 3: higher percentages of the moderate and the milder ones.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, is addiction connected to narcissisms?
Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot. There's a high correlation. I would say
Speaker 3: when you look at addiction, probably fifty to sixty percent
Speaker 3: overlap that. About sixty fifty to sixty percent of people
Speaker 3: living with addiction also have narcissistic personalities. It it's very
Speaker 3: interesting here because I've worked with enough folks who said,
Speaker 3: you know, had a partner and they were there was
Speaker 3: lots of denial, and they were really selfish, and they
Speaker 3: were unempathic, and they were entitled da da da da
Speaker 3: la la la. And then they and they were also
Speaker 3: an alcoholic and they were rageful. And then they went
Speaker 3: to treatment and they went to twelve step and they
Speaker 3: did all the things. They worked the steps and they
Speaker 3: said and they came out the other end and it
Speaker 3: was like a new person and it was no longer
Speaker 3: a tough relationship. And they assumed that the person was
Speaker 3: narcissistic because they had all the narcissistic step. But then
Speaker 3: they went through treatment, they were sober, and they'd been
Speaker 3: sober for a few years, and like, this is much better.
Speaker 3: That to me is probably someone who just had addiction.
Speaker 3: When you have someone who has both, they will go
Speaker 3: through treatment, they will stop drinking, stop using, whatever come out,
Speaker 3: and maybe six, nine, twelve months out are not using.
Speaker 3: But they're still manipulative, they're still gaslighting, they're still entitled.
Speaker 3: They might even weaponize their sobriety. Look how much better
Speaker 3: I am than you? Like that kind of stuff, And
Speaker 3: in those circumstances, family, loved ones, friends will be like
Speaker 3: there as bad as always. Maybe the rage is a
Speaker 3: little bit tamped down, but this is as bad as always.
Speaker 3: When we thought if they got sober, things would get better,
Speaker 3: that's when I hear the story that there was a
Speaker 3: lot of narcissism under that addiction. And the problem is
Speaker 3: a lot of substance abuse. Substance use treatment it's not
Speaker 3: focused addiction. Treatment is not focused on personality. We don't
Speaker 3: have enough time. It's often like twenty eight day to
Speaker 3: six week if you're lucky treatment centers. Probably about ninety
Speaker 3: percent of people living with addiction don't have access to
Speaker 3: high quality treatment, while twelve is free and in some
Speaker 3: ways twelve step programs do kind of try to chip
Speaker 3: away at the narcissism by addressing things like accountability and
Speaker 3: you know, the relative powerlessness, like taking away that sense
Speaker 3: of power, making genuine amends, addressing selfishness, being humble. Those
Speaker 3: are actually attempts to dismantle the narcissism. But I've known
Speaker 3: plenty of people go through twelve step and they're still
Speaker 3: they're showing up to twelve step narcissistic. It's almost like
Speaker 3: competitive twelve step or something, which is not really how
Speaker 3: the program is.
Speaker 2: So I want to ask before I forget. You mentioned
Speaker 2: earlier like being vulnerable and that might make you or
Speaker 2: being in a transition phase, and that might mean, you know,
Speaker 2: all these things that you might be more vulnerable to
Speaker 2: a relationship with a narcissist. And you mentioned if you
Speaker 2: had narcissistic parents, So why you if you have narcissistic parents,
Speaker 2: why is that making you more vulnerable to maybe being
Speaker 2: in a relationship with a narcissist.
Speaker 3: So having a narcissistic relationship is a great question. Having
Speaker 3: a narcissistic relationship is very impactful developmentally, because from a
Speaker 3: very early age, these are children who are basically they're
Speaker 3: not parented as much as they're in the service of
Speaker 3: the narcissistic parent. They have to be what the parent wants.
Speaker 3: They If they behave badly, the parent personalizes, how could
Speaker 3: you do this to me? When the child expresses feelings,
Speaker 3: the parent will often shame them, how could you? You're
Speaker 3: so selfish? You make everything about your Yeah, they're a kid,
Speaker 3: and so if the child has a need the parent
Speaker 3: will feel it. Will often say they're inconvenienced about it,
Speaker 3: or that it's selfish. The child has that The child
Speaker 3: is often only noticed when they're a convenience to the
Speaker 3: parent or they're making the parent look good. So all
Speaker 3: of that combines to really teach a child that the
Speaker 3: only way I can attach to this caregiving person in
Speaker 3: my life is to become what they want. I can't
Speaker 3: be my true self. If my true self shows up,
Speaker 3: it will be dangerous. This person is going to reject me.
Speaker 3: Kid can't take that kind of a risk. So the
Speaker 3: child really learns to suppress themselves. The clinical term is
Speaker 3: the subjugated itself. They just sort of they become what
Speaker 3: the other person, in many ways wants to survive. You know,
Speaker 3: and depending on how severe the parent's narcissism is it
Speaker 3: can be actually be quite traumatizing and unsettling, and so
Speaker 3: you never quite feel psychologically safe. So the child learns
Speaker 3: a safety behavior in all of this is really to
Speaker 3: sort of to give in or to sort of hold back,
Speaker 3: but more than anything is to cut off parts of
Speaker 3: themselves because it's too dangerous for those things to show up.
Speaker 3: And that love is conditional. So if that's the model
Speaker 3: you grew up with, and now you're out in the
Speaker 3: world meeting people, then when somebody's behaving like that, and
Speaker 3: I'm not, by no means am I saying that people
Speaker 3: who grow up with the narcissistic people are massa chiss
Speaker 3: or signing up for this. What happens is is that
Speaker 3: when they get into a relationship and it starts out
Speaker 3: good and all of that, when that's slow in validation
Speaker 3: that ninety ten, eighty twenty I was talking about, When
Speaker 3: that slow invalidation kind of kicks in, then the person
Speaker 3: sort of it's it's you've been indoctrinated to believe that's
Speaker 3: somewhat normal, and in fact to express the need is
Speaker 3: not good. So the first time the narcissistic your partner
Speaker 3: tells you, you're being selfish for expressing a need that's
Speaker 3: actually completely in line with anything you've ever known. In fact,
Speaker 3: you doesn't even feel like weird in your body. You're like,
Speaker 3: of course, here, I am being selfish again. We may
Speaker 3: not run away from the so called red flags because
Speaker 3: they're sort of normalized, and it really diminishes your sense
Speaker 3: of self to have a narcissistic parent. So it's a
Speaker 3: lot harder to advocate for yourself, to stand up for yourself,
Speaker 3: to show up as your real self. You may not
Speaker 3: even know what that is because it was never allowed
Speaker 3: to blossom or develop. So those are all the ways
Speaker 3: that it can make you more vulnerable.
Speaker 2: I mean, was Freud right on? Like? Are we all
Speaker 2: is our? Are we all looking for love that's similar
Speaker 2: to our parents and love we had with our parents?
Speaker 2: Is that an element?
Speaker 3: I don't think so. I actually don't think we are.
Speaker 3: There's something that's something really important to keep in mind.
Speaker 3: And this is where I hope anyone listening to this
Speaker 3: who's younger, and as we talk more about mental health
Speaker 3: and give more permission to it, and you know, therapy
Speaker 3: is not the sort of thing you hide from everyone.
Speaker 3: Is that the degree to which we could create a
Speaker 3: coherent narrative about our childhood that accounts for everything to say, like,
Speaker 3: my parent was super selfish, they were in no position
Speaker 3: to be a parent. My bad luck was I got
Speaker 3: assigned to them as them being my parent, and as
Speaker 3: a result, I didn't learn to express myself and I
Speaker 3: got to take a minute and figure out who I
Speaker 3: am and understand, like this could be my parent. I
Speaker 3: can even kind of have that sense of love or
Speaker 3: duty or obligation to a parent, but recognize like not cool,
Speaker 3: like this was not okay. When we can hold on
Speaker 3: to something like that, we're actually in a better position
Speaker 3: to say, who this feels like it's happening again. But
Speaker 3: since most people when we meet people, we tend to
Speaker 3: be younger, right, we often tend to get into relationships,
Speaker 3: especially some people get into their permanent relationships in their
Speaker 3: twenties or long term relationships twenties early thirties. It's amazing
Speaker 3: how unself examined remain up to that point, because there's
Speaker 3: still a lot of neural development happening till we're twenty five.
Speaker 3: The prefrontal cortex is still rocking and rolling until you're
Speaker 3: about twenty five years old, and so it's by the
Speaker 3: time all that happens, you're you're already at an age
Speaker 3: of people. I think you're getting into relationships, and so
Speaker 3: that creation is a coherent narrative that you know, either
Speaker 3: people it's one extreme or the other. Like cause also
Speaker 3: some people like I have nothing to do with my family,
Speaker 3: they harmed me so much at the level of trauma,
Speaker 3: that's a different kind of working through. But I think
Speaker 3: that that you're not. Nobody's doomed, but I think it's trickier.
Speaker 3: And if somebody had a parent like this, there's a
Speaker 3: little bit more work that needs to be done. And
Speaker 3: in essence, you almost have to move slower into a relationship.
Speaker 3: So you can almost like let each step settle. It's
Speaker 3: almost like walking into cold water, like okay, let me
Speaker 3: let my feet get we a little warm market, let's
Speaker 3: go up to my knees instead of running with reckless
Speaker 3: abandon into the surf. And so you got to take
Speaker 3: a minute and kind of get used to it, because
Speaker 3: otherwise those old pad can flood us and it's and
Speaker 3: then we feel like this is you know, this is
Speaker 3: how it is. This is how relationships are well and.
Speaker 2: What you said about being in a good place with
Speaker 2: friendships with you know, work with colleagues. I think that's
Speaker 2: so important. And I think what we tend to do
Speaker 2: is we tend to think the relationship is going to
Speaker 2: solve everything in our life. Right, Like when people move
Speaker 2: to a new city, they start dating and they're lonely,
Speaker 2: and they're like, well, I just I haven't met anyone
Speaker 2: here yet. And you know, we all it's wonderful to
Speaker 2: search for love because you know, I think we're all
Speaker 2: here to find love and love is the most beautiful
Speaker 2: thing on earth. But I don't think love is going
Speaker 2: to solve all your problems. And I don't think that
Speaker 2: your romantic relationship needs to be the end all be
Speaker 2: all in your life. Like all these other parts of
Speaker 2: us are so important and actually make our romantic relationships better,
Speaker 2: but we don't do that. We look for the love,
Speaker 2: especially when we're young.
Speaker 3: It's a bad cell. I mean, I think it's the
Speaker 3: fairy tale cell. I think it's patriarchal cell.
Speaker 2: I think it's too so why do you think it's
Speaker 2: a patriarchal cell.
Speaker 3: Because I mean, when you think of the original construction
Speaker 3: of marriage, it really did benefit men. It's long term caregiving.
Speaker 3: It's it's meals, it's children raised, it's a maintenance of
Speaker 3: a power structure. I mean, I don't want to sound
Speaker 3: like I'm anti long term committed relationship. I think there's
Speaker 3: I think a healthy, long term committed relationship is a huge,
Speaker 3: huge contributor to psychological health. But I think this idea
Speaker 3: of your one person forever or that has to happen
Speaker 3: when you're younger, even though women have to have children,
Speaker 3: I think to allow people to take that time with
Speaker 3: themselves subjectively and say what could this look like with me?
Speaker 3: One thing? I'm really inspired, especially when I'm seeing younger
Speaker 3: gen z. They're making a lot more. They're being more
Speaker 3: creative in their decision making around relationships. And I think
Speaker 3: some in my age, I mean like there was only
Speaker 3: one path to take and if you didn't, you were
Speaker 3: weird and so but I think that you know, we
Speaker 3: know actually for the longest time marriage benefited men more
Speaker 3: than women. It did because I mean, think about it,
Speaker 3: somebody came into my house and decided to clean it
Speaker 3: and cook me meals and have sex with me and
Speaker 3: do stuff for me. I'm like, where do I sign
Speaker 3: up for this? Like, I mean that's not how it
Speaker 3: works for me.
Speaker 2: I don't know how many times my girlfriends and I
Speaker 2: are like, oh, I wish I had a wife, Like
Speaker 2: you know, we go on a girl's trip and everything's
Speaker 2: so easy, Like somebody's making breakfast, somebody else is doing
Speaker 2: the laundry, someone else is straightening up from last night,
Speaker 2: and things are just getting done. And again that's not
Speaker 2: to say they're about like I have a great partner
Speaker 2: who really contributes to the house. But traditionally I know
Speaker 2: what you mean.
Speaker 3: But I'm saying at the population level, That's why I'm
Speaker 3: saying is that I think that push on like you're
Speaker 3: one person in your fairy tale and it's it's it's
Speaker 3: I mean, think of all the kids raised on Disney movies, right,
Speaker 3: every Disney movie is another experiment and dysfunctional relationship, and
Speaker 3: I think that it really sets up this like oh,
Speaker 3: if you if you give up your legs, you can
Speaker 3: have the guy, or give up your tail, you can
Speaker 3: have the guy. I'm like, no, giving up stuff like
Speaker 3: The Little Mermaid is the ultimate subjugation story, literally giving
Speaker 3: up her own emphasize that she gives up her voice
Speaker 3: and she gives up her tail and she gives up
Speaker 3: her home. Ladies don't give us stuff off, please.
Speaker 2: I know it's weird. I was just talking to my
Speaker 2: friend about this the other day, Like, somehow, even for
Speaker 2: the smartest, most accomplished women, I know, sometimes it's like
Speaker 2: and I don't think it's super conscious, but there's still
Speaker 2: a deferring to the men. Like like a couple who's
Speaker 2: talking about where they're going to live, Like we were
Speaker 2: looking at our friend and going like, but why did
Speaker 2: the guy win in that discussion? Like why did they
Speaker 2: end up living where he wanted? And I don't know
Speaker 2: if it's women like kind of being easy going and
Speaker 2: sort of deferring and not problem causing and not demanding,
Speaker 2: you know, but I still see that quite a lot,
Speaker 2: I think, even in relationships that are a lot more
Speaker 2: equal than ones that I saw like our mothers having.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think that there's also there's some
Speaker 3: you know where I think when you start seeing in
Speaker 3: the narcissism world hitting sort of the dysfunctional relationship world.
Speaker 3: I also think that particularly women, but not just women,
Speaker 3: but I think women a lot get that what I
Speaker 3: call the easy breezy message, right, be easy breezy, Like
Speaker 3: I'm cool, like I'm the cool girl. Let go along
Speaker 3: with anything, like you know, the cool girl. The cool girl,
Speaker 3: I'm convinced is something that the narcissistic people dropped into
Speaker 3: the into the into the narcissism into the internet world,
Speaker 3: so that people are like, I want to be the cool,
Speaker 3: easy breezy girl. I'm a cool, easy breezy girl, has
Speaker 3: no needs and has no voice and no, no, no,
Speaker 3: no, no no. It's and I'm not saying be rigid demanding person.
Speaker 3: No no no, I'm saying that have needs and wants
Speaker 3: and voice them and and have it be a conversation. Rather,
Speaker 3: I'm just going to go with the flow because I
Speaker 3: don't want to lose this person. I don't want to
Speaker 3: seem needy. That's often where and that in a he
Speaker 3: with a healthy partner that could end up being the
Speaker 3: healthy partner saying and even that can even be a
Speaker 3: little bit taken advantage of there, but the healthy partner say, hey, no,
Speaker 3: I want to hear what you want to do. Do you
Speaker 3: want to move here or not? Because if you don't,
Speaker 3: then we need to find a compromise, be cause I
Speaker 3: don't want you to be unhappy in this place, right,
Speaker 3: But I but with a narcissistic partner and you're easy, breezy,
Speaker 3: forget it your toast, they will completely run rough shot
Speaker 3: over that. And I think a lot of people are
Speaker 3: sold that bill of goods at the easier like flexible
Speaker 3: is great, but zacly like giving up on yourself is not.
Speaker 3: And that's I'm not saying that's even that final line,
Speaker 3: but I think people have trouble saying that, Like, I
Speaker 3: want to be flexible, flexible super flexible means still having needs.
Speaker 3: Flexible still means still making things known, preferences known, and understanding.
Speaker 3: You may still not get the thing you want, but
Speaker 3: you felt heard, so compromises can be made wherever you
Speaker 3: end up, if that makes sense. And I think we
Speaker 3: viewed as an either or that's the problem.
Speaker 2: And that's I think the older I get, the more
Speaker 2: I realize, like those subtleties are hard to see, like
Speaker 2: like you're mentioning the Disney thing. When you're little, you're
Speaker 2: raised on stories of heroes and villains and good and evil,
Speaker 2: and then the older you get you realize all the
Speaker 2: gray area of people and the gray area of relationships
Speaker 2: and conversations like yep, and yeah, I think there was
Speaker 2: a lot of like how I wound up in that
Speaker 2: relationship was a lot of like relationships take work, and
Speaker 2: so you're working at it, but then you have to
Speaker 2: see those subtleties of like but is this too much work?
Speaker 2: Is this fair amount of work? Is the other person working?
Speaker 2: And you have to sort through all that. So when
Speaker 2: you're sitting and you're talking to someone who's maybe like
Speaker 2: actively in a relationship with a narcissist, and you can
Speaker 2: see it, but maybe they can't see it. What are
Speaker 2: things that you say, Like, I'm thinking of people who
Speaker 2: are worried about their girlfriend who's in a relationship, or
Speaker 2: their guy friend or whatever. What do you say to
Speaker 2: your friend to kind of make them wake up or
Speaker 2: see or what are some things where you can help
Speaker 2: people easily pinpoint hey, this is not good and it's
Speaker 2: not going to get better.
Speaker 3: Well, first of all, one thing you don't want to do, ever,
Speaker 3: is go up to them and say, hey, I think
Speaker 3: your husband, wife's, spouse, partner, whatever, your boo whatever is
Speaker 3: a narcissist. Don't do that. It's a big mistake because
Speaker 3: it's a big word, and it's an overwhelming word, and
Speaker 3: it's not going to move the needle. You're not going
Speaker 3: to help your friend. More often than not, your friend's
Speaker 3: going to push back and say what and they might
Speaker 3: even defend the partner more, which now you're digging deeper
Speaker 3: into that hole. The best thing you can do is
Speaker 3: if you're watching something like this happen at a private moment,
Speaker 3: just check in, like you doing okay, and they'm like, yeah,
Speaker 3: why you know, I just saw that in the kitchen
Speaker 3: and I'm gonna be honest with you like that was
Speaker 3: hard to listen to it. Who's felt critical. I just
Speaker 3: wanted to hear if you're doing okay now. I could
Speaker 3: almost promise you the first time you do that, the
Speaker 3: person you approach like the friend, they're gonna say, no, no,
Speaker 3: it wasn't. But there's something else happening that you're not
Speaker 3: aware of. You've put a light on something that they
Speaker 3: kind of knew wasn't cool, and for the first time,
Speaker 3: you're kind of on gaslighting them. And but they're not
Speaker 3: going to say that to you right away. They're gonna
Speaker 3: they're gonna they're say no, no, I was cool like that,
Speaker 3: that's nothing, But inside the wheels are starting to churn,
Speaker 3: and to reassure them saying okay, okay, I don't want
Speaker 3: to overstep. I'm here, you know, I just you know,
Speaker 3: you're amazing and I want you to be treated well.
Speaker 3: And you take and then take ownership and say I
Speaker 3: didn't love what I saw. That one interaction could be
Speaker 3: enough for somebody to say I was right. Isn't cool?
Speaker 3: But I didn't know? And then it might and then
Speaker 3: you might and you gently approach again, gently approach again.
Speaker 3: You might even do things like, hey, you know what,
Speaker 3: there's this new something something you want to go spend
Speaker 3: a few hours just you and me go and as friends,
Speaker 3: and then check in and see how they're doing. You
Speaker 3: might even see them loosen up and you know, and
Speaker 3: then slowly have them comment on that it'll come around
Speaker 3: quicker than you think. But what you can't do is
Speaker 3: they're narcissistic. Now, obviously this doesn't apply in cases where
Speaker 3: there's physical abuse or anything like that. I'm talking more
Speaker 3: of like the sort of that that psychological poking and
Speaker 3: slicing away. It's like the death by a thousand cuts
Speaker 3: that's happening in front of you. You know, you have
Speaker 3: to be careful even calling it the narcissistic out narcissistic
Speaker 3: person out. Let's say you know the narcissistic person well,
Speaker 3: and you can say like, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, what
Speaker 3: are you doing? You might have some power there, but
Speaker 3: you have to be careful because that narcissistic person then
Speaker 3: may go doubly hard at the person in a relationship
Speaker 3: with them. But I think it's pointing out and saying
Speaker 3: I saw something it wasn't cool. I hope you're okay.
Speaker 3: I saw it, I didn't think it was okay. I
Speaker 3: got you, and then let them run with them.
Speaker 2: I have one big question. I don't know if it's
Speaker 2: easy to answer, but I feel like I've seen it.
Speaker 2: I'm thinking of a friend who was in a bad
Speaker 2: marriage that it took time, but she finally got out
Speaker 2: of it. I'm thinking of a friend who was struggling
Speaker 2: with acknowledging that their mom was narcissistic. Because here's what's
Speaker 2: painful is feeling like we weren't loved. So are narcissists
Speaker 2: capable of love?
Speaker 3: It's a tricky question. It's sort of because it's almost
Speaker 3: a philosophical question as much as it's a psychological question.
Speaker 3: What's love right? And what does it mean? Because I
Speaker 3: can tell you right now, you, me and everyone listening
Speaker 3: to this might have different definitions. For some people, love
Speaker 3: is love is saying I love you. When people love
Speaker 3: is having sex. For some people, love its physical affection.
Speaker 3: For some you know, we talk about all the love languages.
Speaker 3: So for someone else, love is taking out the trash
Speaker 3: and never complaining about it. Right, But I think that
Speaker 3: it's the lack of a shared definition. That's the old
Speaker 3: Bell Hooks quote, right, you know, it's the problem with it.
Speaker 3: Would all it would be helpful if we had a
Speaker 3: shared definition of love kind of thing. I'm butchering the quote.
Speaker 3: But we But it's that's the problems. We don't have
Speaker 3: a shared definition. For a narcissistic person, love is very transactional,
Speaker 3: and it's very oriented towards supply. It's sort of does
Speaker 3: it giveing me a great example, narcissistic person, they go
Speaker 3: to work that day and they have a great day
Speaker 3: at work. They get the promotion like, let's celebrate whatever.
Speaker 3: They You guys get ready each time to go out
Speaker 3: to dinner, You go to dinner, you get to the restaurant,
Speaker 3: and you know, completely by coincidence, the person, the host, whatever,
Speaker 3: theater says, you know what, like we had a reservation,
Speaker 3: not show up like this, the fabulous table overlooking the
Speaker 3: water came free, like I'd love to give it to you.
Speaker 3: Guys are a beautiful couple. Narcissistic persons like come on
Speaker 3: in and then you're sitting down and then they're like, hey,
Speaker 3: you know what, Like the manager is sending over two
Speaker 3: glasses of wine. So the narcissistic person is being treated
Speaker 3: like the most special person in the world. And they
Speaker 3: turn to their partner like, baby, I love you so much.
Speaker 3: They love the night, they love that day, right, they don't.
Speaker 3: I'm not convinced that they love all these feelings. I'm special.
Speaker 3: I got special table, I got special glass of wine,
Speaker 3: I got the promotion. I love this day. But it
Speaker 3: turns into I love you. And when you're in a
Speaker 3: narcissistic relationship, you hold on one of those nights, and
Speaker 3: then the next day they come to find out the
Speaker 3: promotions not hold getting giving them the raise they want,
Speaker 3: and then they hit some traffic on the way home,
Speaker 3: and then there's a problem comes up, and you're still
Speaker 3: thinking you're still in the glow of I love you
Speaker 3: night with the wine and the table and they come
Speaker 3: home and you're all affectionate, and they're all rumpy and mean,
Speaker 3: like what what do you want? Like what dinner? What
Speaker 3: are you talking about? Like I have to work late,
Speaker 3: and and you feel like what the hell? Just how
Speaker 3: do we go from I love you to this? Because
Speaker 3: they loved the night, they're not loving this day. So
Speaker 3: it feels like they don't love. You know, they don't
Speaker 3: love what's happening. They don't. They're not They're not getting
Speaker 3: enough supply. So they tell people that their definition of
Speaker 3: love is supply how they feel. It's not really about
Speaker 3: the other person. It's the love for them is does
Speaker 3: this look good? Does it feel good to me? Versus
Speaker 3: this sense of I'm in something with you? This is shared,
Speaker 3: I got your back, And that's a very different definition,
Speaker 3: and I think people will make. The big mistake people
Speaker 3: make in narcissistic relationships is they have that argument you
Speaker 3: said you love me, you don't love me. And I
Speaker 3: always tell people, don't tell the narcissistic person they don't
Speaker 3: love you. They think they do. You just have different definitions.
Speaker 2: Wow that I'm gonna taking that with me. So I'm
Speaker 2: going to go push play and tell people listen, to
Speaker 2: to my friend and out of the marriage. Listen to
Speaker 2: this part, because yes, that makes so much sense. And
Speaker 2: I never even thought about all of us not having
Speaker 2: this shared definition of love because we all talk about
Speaker 2: love as a society so much, so it kind of
Speaker 2: feels like we do. But we really have to talk
Speaker 2: through what love looks like to you, what healthy love
Speaker 2: is to you, what healthy love is period.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, I know I have to get going with
Speaker 2: you soon, but real quick. You talked about like, uh,
Speaker 2: you know, this narcissism coming up as a definite, you know,
Speaker 2: coming up more and more through our politics, through social media.
Speaker 2: Like is it possible that narcissism I don't know if
Speaker 2: it's always inherent or if it can grow. Can it
Speaker 2: be growing and getting more prominent because of social media
Speaker 2: because of the way our governments the world over are
Speaker 2: going or no.
Speaker 3: You know, me and a colleague of person in the
Speaker 3: field who does this work I could colleague friend, doctor
Speaker 3: Keith Campbell at University of Georgia. He says that he
Speaker 3: actually doesn't think that the number of grandiose narcissists is
Speaker 3: on the rise. He's like, there's always been grandiose narcissist.
Speaker 3: He's social media just gives them a megaphone. Him and
Speaker 3: I agree that the number that there's a form of
Speaker 3: narcissism that's on the rise, and that's vulnerable narcissism. These
Speaker 3: are the more resentful, socially anxious, more socially isolated, rootingly angry, passive, aggressive, victimized,
Speaker 3: sullen narcissists. Here's where social media has given them a
Speaker 3: kind of a scary megaphone. Whereas these folks often didn't
Speaker 3: always like they kind of be grumpy in their lives.
Speaker 3: Maybe they'd be the grumpy drunk at the corner bar.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the cantankerous old guy on your street.
Speaker 3: This is no These are no longer cantankris old guys.
Speaker 3: These are cantankeris young people. These are people who are
Speaker 3: They're angry and they're brooding, and that seems to be
Speaker 3: proliferating a bit more, I don't, I mean, and it's
Speaker 3: sort of where at least that that voice wasn't there
Speaker 3: as much before. I think that it's just what we're
Speaker 3: I think the narcissistic people are always there. We're seeing
Speaker 3: them because once upon a time, how were they going
Speaker 3: to get all this attention, like I wouldn't have known
Speaker 3: there was a random narcissist in Kansas. I don't live
Speaker 3: in Kansas. So now that narcissist Kansas canna make a
Speaker 3: lot of noise on the Internet and on social media.
Speaker 3: And so I think these tools are uniquely suited to
Speaker 3: the two narcissistic people. I really really think that they are.
Speaker 3: But I think that it's a I think that what's
Speaker 3: also happening is we're rewarding narcissism. But let learn, let
Speaker 3: me put it to you this way. I I am
Speaker 3: someone like you. Know again, you and I are both
Speaker 3: in the public guye right, And I know damn well.
Speaker 3: If I was more aggressive, if I was more assertive,
Speaker 3: if I was more entitled, if I was more demanding,
Speaker 3: my career would probably be bigger. And the idea of
Speaker 3: doing that makes me sick. It really does make me
Speaker 3: physiologically ill. Like people are like, no, do this, and
Speaker 3: it's okay if you sort of that person under the bus,
Speaker 3: I'm like, I gotta sleep. I can't do it. And
Speaker 3: there's more than a couple of times in my career
Speaker 3: where if I could have done something that I think
Speaker 3: would have disadvantaged someone I care about. And I'm not
Speaker 3: saying I'm just some kind of damn martyr. I'm not.
Speaker 3: It's just I know what I can tolerate. And there
Speaker 3: are times, you know, I mean, sure we all do
Speaker 3: our things, but I'm like I couldn't, but I see
Speaker 3: people who can't, like their career is on fire, and
Speaker 3: so it is. I mean, there's certain you know, does
Speaker 3: that make sense? I think that this idea that now
Speaker 3: everyone's becoming narcissistic to be on social media, people's personalities
Speaker 3: don't change like that a person might say, may a
Speaker 3: person may do weird things like keep posting their breakfast,
Speaker 3: but it actually just might be this sweet thing, Like
Speaker 3: it's like posting a muffin. Like before we tell this
Speaker 3: person they're narcissistic, like, talk to them. Maybe they just
Speaker 3: like blueberry muffins. Yeah, so you see what I'm saying.
Speaker 3: So I think we're so quick to think like everyone's narcissistic.
Speaker 3: But I think that you're not going to turn a person.
Speaker 3: Now here's where it's gonna get funky. Though. So it
Speaker 3: is now twenty twenty four and what Facebook and all
Speaker 3: that nonsense came out with two thousand and six seven
Speaker 3: eight around there. I don't remember Facebook began, so we're
Speaker 3: almost staying twenty years. So we're about to see the
Speaker 3: first cohort of kids that were born into a social
Speaker 3: media world and are about to hit adulthood. Folks, hold
Speaker 3: on to your hats because this group of kids, we
Speaker 3: just don't know. It's the first time we're ever going
Speaker 3: to see from the day they were born, there were
Speaker 3: lives that were shaped on how they would be shown
Speaker 3: in media. Like I have kids, but they were born
Speaker 3: when there was no social media, so there was in fact,
Speaker 3: only blackberries were in fact, nope, there was no cell phones.
Speaker 3: In fact, I had to get like I had to
Speaker 3: get like a cell phone where it was like, you know,
Speaker 3: five hundred dollars a month to like talk for a minute,
Speaker 3: to just tell my husband at the time that I
Speaker 3: was going into labor, like it was that. So we
Speaker 3: didn't have any of that, And so I don't have
Speaker 3: a children who didn't grow up at that. But this
Speaker 3: is the first group. So I really think that the
Speaker 3: jury's out on what this data is going to say.
Speaker 3: But I think to somebody who's thirty years old, their
Speaker 3: personality is not going to become narcissistic because social media.
Speaker 2: Interesting. Yeah, I mean, look, it's you know, I've listened
Speaker 2: to a lot of like what bo Burnham has had
Speaker 2: to say because he was kind of a kid on Vine,
Speaker 2: and I think everything he says is so smart, Like
Speaker 2: I remember, and this is not a direct quote, but
Speaker 2: he said, like, you know, we're asking kids to define
Speaker 2: to the world who they are before they know who
Speaker 2: they are and when they should be developing who that
Speaker 2: is in private, And yeah, I think you know. My
Speaker 2: take on it is social media can be good for
Speaker 2: a lot of things, but can also be very bad
Speaker 2: in a lot of ways. And it's interesting you're talking
Speaker 2: about the career thing, like I wanted to be a journalist, right,
Speaker 2: and then social media happened, like right when I was graduating,
Speaker 2: and it became this necessary thing, like in my contracts,
Speaker 2: like you have to post about your thing. You have
Speaker 2: to And I've always sort of hated it, honestly, Like
Speaker 2: there are parts that I like connecting with people on,
Speaker 2: but I don't like being like here's this interview I did,
Speaker 2: but it was in my contracts. I had to do it.
Speaker 2: And I've heard is that a good gauge like for
Speaker 2: pe people who are listening I've heard what a good
Speaker 2: gauge is is on are you a narcissist? Is like,
Speaker 2: if you're asking are you a narcissist? If you're examining that,
Speaker 2: then you're probably not. Is that accurate?
Speaker 3: It's actually a pretty good gauge, you know, because I
Speaker 3: think I have to tell you, and it's a gauge
Speaker 3: more than you think. Like a lot of people who've
Speaker 3: been through narcissistic relationships, especially when they started like learning
Speaker 3: more and sort of putting their back in the relationship
Speaker 3: and saying, hey, I'm a real person in this relationship too,
Speaker 3: and I have some needs and wants, and then they're
Speaker 3: told by the narcissistic person like, oh, you're very narcissistic.
Speaker 3: Look at you so demanding, and literally their demand is
Speaker 3: like could we just have dinner together? Like could you
Speaker 3: come home one night a week? And you're so demanding?
Speaker 3: And so I think a lot of people have been
Speaker 3: told that by narcissistic families, by narcissistic partners and have wondered, well,
Speaker 3: maybe I am asking that and maybe I'm being too
Speaker 3: asky and you know, needy or something like that. So
Speaker 3: our demand eer gives. Really what it comes down to,
Speaker 3: but I think that the if people are willing to
Speaker 3: sort of inspect that, that's a good time. I do
Speaker 3: think there are some narcissistic people out there who know
Speaker 3: they're narcissistic. I've worked with folks like that clinically, that
Speaker 3: doesn't necessarily mean they make the change or like they'll
Speaker 3: even say like I'm in a whole like I know
Speaker 3: that and I know that gets me into trouble, and
Speaker 3: then I have to really ask. I'm like, do you
Speaker 3: want to change that? And like, well, yeah, Mike, do
Speaker 3: you realize what it means to change? And that's when
Speaker 3: they're like, oh, not so sure.
Speaker 2: I don't actually want to do it right. Well, the
Speaker 2: last question I'll ask, and then I'll let you go.
Speaker 2: But just if people have been listening to this and
Speaker 2: maybe it's opened their eyes a little bit too, that
Speaker 2: maybe they are in what's not a good relationship with
Speaker 2: a romantic partner, a friend, you know, even in a
Speaker 2: work situation or a family situation. What are some tips
Speaker 2: that you might give them on like how to first
Speaker 2: broach potentially getting out of this or potentially you know,
Speaker 2: trying to make it healthier. What's some of the first
Speaker 2: things that you say to people if they think they
Speaker 2: might be in a narcissistic relationship.
Speaker 3: I think first you've got to understand what it is,
Speaker 3: and there's a lot of resource out there to read about,
Speaker 3: to listen to and just learn what it is. The
Speaker 3: second thing is, unfortunately, radical acceptance. Once it's pretty clear
Speaker 3: that this is a pattern, it's not a one off,
Speaker 3: you really have to ask yourself a hard question, say no,
Speaker 3: this is always someone that's been great and then they
Speaker 3: got laid off from their job and it's been tough,
Speaker 3: but to say there was a very very empathic, consistent, warm, loving,
Speaker 3: patient person. You've got to make sure that it's not
Speaker 3: linked that changes to behavior that might be more selfish
Speaker 3: or angry or something like that aren't linked to one thing,
Speaker 3: and maybe have even come back after that, but you're
Speaker 3: clear on what these patterns are. The next piece then
Speaker 3: is the radical acceptance. Narcissism doesn't really change. It doesn't
Speaker 3: so anything you're doing in this relationship is based on
Speaker 3: this idea that it's not really going to change. So
Speaker 3: it's never going to be a relationship that's deep, that's
Speaker 3: got close intimacy, that where there's a lot of emotional attunement,
Speaker 3: or availability, and there's a lot of grief that comes
Speaker 3: around that, and you've got to hold on. You've got
Speaker 3: to let that process unfold because it otherwise you might
Speaker 3: go running back. I don't want to hear that. La
Speaker 3: la la la. This isn't happening. And then it's about
Speaker 3: you have to make decisions. Not everyone, Lauren, can leave
Speaker 3: these relationships. Some people they have minor children, they don't
Speaker 3: have the money or the supports, or there's duty, obligation, religion, culture.
Speaker 3: There's many, many reasons people say. Sometimes people stay because
Speaker 3: they've got hope. That's a tricky reason because it's never
Speaker 3: going to get better. Or people stay because they're like,
Speaker 3: even though this isn't great, I just want to be
Speaker 3: part of a family. That's fine. And I always tell
Speaker 3: people you need to make a choice for you. Nobody
Speaker 3: can tell you what to do, but if you're going
Speaker 3: to do it, it better be eyes wide open. And
Speaker 3: that means if you stay, it means this person is
Speaker 3: still going to be this way. So don't engage as much,
Speaker 3: you know, disengage, build out your other supports, create other
Speaker 3: meaningful activities in your life. It ain't happening here. If
Speaker 3: you leave, be prepared for post separation abuse, smear campaigns
Speaker 3: and other forms of like you don't get to walk
Speaker 3: away sort of you know, sort of unscathed. So there's
Speaker 3: difficulties all around, and some people decide to stay for
Speaker 3: a while and say, now that I see this for
Speaker 3: what it is. I tried for a year, it's not working,
Speaker 3: and then they decide to go. But I think it's
Speaker 3: in it. I think if you can, accessing therapy can
Speaker 3: also make a big difference, because this can really be
Speaker 3: experienced as a massive loss the dream you had of
Speaker 3: a happy marriage, or your kid's all growing up with
Speaker 3: two parents in a home, or you know, having a
Speaker 3: close relationship with parents or something like that. When those
Speaker 3: hopes go, it's very, very, very painful. And so how
Speaker 3: having someone to help you walk through that all of
Speaker 3: this can make a difference. And understanding that there's going
Speaker 3: to be good days and bad and that every sometimes
Speaker 3: you might get sucked back into these relationships and doesn't
Speaker 3: mean you've failed. I mean, in many ways, that connected
Speaker 3: part of you is still there and it's working, and
Speaker 3: sometimes it's not always your best friend. But better that
Speaker 3: you get to retain your empathy and compassion, then you
Speaker 3: feel like you've lost it because of this relationship.
Speaker 2: So perfectly put Doctor Rominie, thank you so much. And
Speaker 2: of course, your book, it's not you, Identifying and Healing
Speaker 2: from Narcissistic People, a New York Times bestseller is out
Speaker 2: there and available, and tell us about your new project
Speaker 2: on fireside.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So we have a new thing called the Doctor
Speaker 3: Romedey Network, which feels great deals, but it's really cool.
Speaker 3: It's great because it's allowing us to do along me
Speaker 3: to do something I've always wanted to do, which is
Speaker 3: be interactive. And people who are members of this network
Speaker 3: will have the opportunity to come on on if you
Speaker 3: will virtual stage and ask me questions and we can
Speaker 3: explore them. And the great part is the community is
Speaker 3: weighing into so it's slowly, but surely you're going to become,
Speaker 3: we hope, like the world's largest virtual support group for
Speaker 3: people with who are going through toxic relationships. And I
Speaker 3: have to say just I see the comments and the
Speaker 3: comments are so supportive that I see how much again,
Speaker 3: while I love my part in it, it's amazing to
Speaker 3: watch how much people buy each other. So go to
Speaker 3: the Doctor Romedy Network sign up and if you really
Speaker 3: care about these issues. You're going to see. You're definitely
Speaker 3: not alone, and it's really amazing to get to have
Speaker 3: that back and forth and to hear different people's stories,
Speaker 3: and there's guests and you get to ask the guest
Speaker 3: questions too, so it's really cool. Because we had to
Speaker 3: guess who's like an expert on relationships. You can ask
Speaker 3: them a question too, So it's a chance to really
Speaker 3: get instead of just watching and listening, you actually get
Speaker 3: to get in there and ask some questions of your own.
Speaker 2: Well, just like you were talking about the importance of
Speaker 2: a network and that social structure of support. Doctor Romney,
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. I was so looking forward to this.
Speaker 2: I know you're so busy. Thanks for fitting us in.
Speaker 2: This was such an educational treat, and thank you for
Speaker 2: all that you do and for reminding us it's not you.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much. By bye next night.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Follow us on Instagram at the most
Speaker 1: dramatic pod ever and make sure to write us a
Speaker 1: review and leave us five stars. I'll talk to you
Speaker 1: next time.