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Speaker 1: This is the most dramatic podcast ever and iHeartRadio podcast.

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Speaker 2: Everybody. Welcome to the most dramatic podcast ever. I am

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Speaker 2: Lauren Zima. Here solo in, as my husband would say,

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Speaker 2: the home office of Austin, Texas. Because my husband is out.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to call him out. He's out, very near

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Speaker 2: to the home office. But playing golf, and that feels right,

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Speaker 2: doesn't it. It's okay. We love him, we support him.

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Speaker 2: And here's the thing. He is playing in something he

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Speaker 2: looks forward to so much. I've just learned about it.

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Speaker 2: You may know about it. It's called a member guest

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Speaker 2: golf tournament, and it is very cute. It is a

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Speaker 2: time when he gets to bring in his best friend

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Speaker 2: from California to Texas to visit us and play in

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Speaker 2: this golf tournament. Chris is the member and his best

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Speaker 2: friendship is the guest, and so it's a beautiful thing.

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Speaker 2: It's like watching two little guys get to have a

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Speaker 2: playdate with a friend who moved away, or seeing two

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Speaker 2: friends reunited summer camp a year, and it's just lovely.

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Speaker 2: And I am a big proponent of friendships and their

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Speaker 2: importance in your romantic relationship. I love for Chris to

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Speaker 2: have time with his guy friends for me to have

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Speaker 2: time with my girlfriends. And that's actually something we get

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Speaker 2: into on the podcast today, the importance of friendships and

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Speaker 2: your social structure in making sure you're not in a

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Speaker 2: dangerous romantic relationship. And that comes from our guest doctor Romney.

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Speaker 2: She is so incredible. We've been working on getting around

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Speaker 2: the podcast for a minute because she's very booked and busy.

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Speaker 2: She is a clinical psychologist, a retired professor of psychology,

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Speaker 2: a best selling author. Her books include Don't You Know

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Speaker 2: Who I Am? How to Stay Sane in the Era

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Speaker 2: of Narcissism, Entitlement, and Inclivity. So that's what we're going

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Speaker 2: to hit the nail on the head with today is narcissism.

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Speaker 2: She through her research and her work, has basically become

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Speaker 2: one of the experts of the people the forefront of

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Speaker 2: the research on narcissism. And I feel like narcissism is

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Speaker 2: both obviously a very real thing, but then kind of

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Speaker 2: this buzzword that we hear a lot lately, especially like

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Speaker 2: in the worlds that Chris and I operate in of

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Speaker 2: reality TV. You certainly hear people accusing others of being narcissists,

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Speaker 2: And so the question is like, how real is it?

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Speaker 2: How many people are really narcissists? How much of a

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Speaker 2: buzzword is it? How much are we all encountering it

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Speaker 2: and don't know it. If you think you or a

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Speaker 2: friend might be in a narcissistic relationship, this podcast is

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Speaker 2: really going to help you. So Doctor Romney was incredible.

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Speaker 2: She answered so many questions, gave so many good takeaways,

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Speaker 2: and let's welcome her. Now, all right, doctor Romney, welcome.

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Speaker 2: I am so excited to talk to you because I

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Speaker 2: feel like if there's one person who pops up everywhere

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Speaker 2: on my Instagram in the algorithm with these incredible takeaways

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Speaker 2: on narcissism, it is you. So now, first I want

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Speaker 2: to ask you how did you become I mean, you've

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Speaker 2: written multiple books about narcissism. How did you become the

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Speaker 2: authority on narcissism? And is it something you wanted to

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Speaker 2: become or did it just happen?

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Speaker 3: When you study narcissism, you never want to say you're

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Speaker 3: the authority on it because then you're thinking, no, I

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Speaker 3: don't want to be grandiose, but I've been doing this

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Speaker 3: for a long time and I wish it was like

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Speaker 3: a great origin story. It's kind of boring. I came

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Speaker 3: into it as an academic researcher and then as a

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Speaker 3: practicing therapist, and in those spaces it was sort of

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Speaker 3: it was one of those things where you like, the

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Speaker 3: missing puzzle piece seems so easy, right, I'm like, well,

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Speaker 3: if we explain narcissism, or we thought about this is narcissism,

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Speaker 3: it all makes sense. But there was a lot of

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Speaker 3: resistance to it. You know. Where I really noticed is

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Speaker 3: like the field of mental health didn't even want to

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Speaker 3: take this on, and there was a lot of sort

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Speaker 3: of being apologists for this behavior. Well maybe they have

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Speaker 3: a reason. I'm like, there's no reason to emotionally abuse someone, Like,

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Speaker 3: you're never going to come up with a rationale for

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Speaker 3: that for me. And so I got so I got

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Speaker 3: into it again as a researcher and as a therapist,

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Speaker 3: and it wasn't until many years later that I kind

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Speaker 3: of opened my eyes to these patterns were definitely in

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Speaker 3: my life too, and even my unwillingness to want to

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Speaker 3: see it. That really took me much to get much

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Speaker 3: more interested in what was happening to people in these relationships.

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Speaker 3: Lots of people. I've written about narcissism, but what happens

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Speaker 3: to people when they're in a narcissistic relationship. There was

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Speaker 3: much much less on that. So that was where That's

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Speaker 3: how I came into it, and I was really struck

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Speaker 3: by how much people are helped when they understand what

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Speaker 3: this is about, and above all else that it's not

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Speaker 3: their fault someone else. If someone else is treating you badly,

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Speaker 3: that's not your fault. They're engaging in a behavior. And

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Speaker 3: if you attempt to communicate with them and you get

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Speaker 3: worse treatment back, you got a real problem on your hands.

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Speaker 3: But then it's not you.

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Speaker 2: Wow. Even from that, I have so much to want

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Speaker 2: to ask you before I forget it. What's striking to

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Speaker 2: me there is that you said there was a resistance

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Speaker 2: to acknowledge narcissism. Because I feel like today and I

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Speaker 2: did want to ask you about this, but today it

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Speaker 2: kind of feels like it's everywhere, maybe even and I

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Speaker 2: do want your opinion, but maybe even to the point

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Speaker 2: of like, are we over using it? So what was

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Speaker 2: the shift there? Why is it more acceptable now?

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Speaker 3: I don't. I mean, I think that the shift has

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Speaker 3: been I think the shifts in the political landscape. I

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Speaker 3: think from twenty sixteen forward, and not just in the

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Speaker 3: United States, but throughout the world, there were leadership shifts

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Speaker 3: that meant journalists were using this word more.

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Speaker 2: I think that you mean, we got some narcissistic leaders

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Speaker 2: in our Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I'm trying to be I'm trying to be as both

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Speaker 3: sides of the aisle here as I can be. Right

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Speaker 3: we are and it's not and it's not just in

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Speaker 3: presidential or prime minister or not even just in the US.

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Speaker 3: It's not just its senates, it's senators, it's congress people,

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Speaker 3: it's you know, it's all of it. It's not just there.

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Speaker 3: We see it more in the celebrity world. To be

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Speaker 3: frank with you, I mean, I think that we're in

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Speaker 3: an era where we almost celebrate, revere, incentivize, and reward

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Speaker 3: narcissistic behavior. The more outlanders, the more grandiose, the more

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Speaker 3: attendency making we're standing up in applouding. I think of

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Speaker 3: the influencer economy, this is basically somebody who's saying, look

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Speaker 3: at me, look at me, look at me, and they're

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Speaker 3: they're making a lot of money at well. Once upon

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Speaker 3: a time, wasn't sort of a viable pathway to a career.

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Speaker 3: And yet people, the best influencers, I would imagine, at

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Speaker 3: some level, are able to sort of just sort of

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Speaker 3: make it about them. So in a strange way, narcissism

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Speaker 3: could incentivize a person being more economically successful in our

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Speaker 3: new sort of technologically driven economy. So I think though

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Speaker 3: the word coming more into the purview was that political shift.

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Speaker 3: I really believe it was that because as much as

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Speaker 3: journalists tried to avoid using it, you couldn't avoid it,

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Speaker 3: because it was the word that worked. And then I

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Speaker 3: think what happened was, you know, I mean, there were

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Speaker 3: people out there, myself included, who id YouTube channels, and

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Speaker 3: people were talking more about it, and then it helped

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Speaker 3: people make sense of stuff, and that of course led

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Speaker 3: to a lot of people wanting to talk about it.

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Speaker 3: But then the problem is, and this has always been

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Speaker 3: the problem with narcissism, it's a subtle topic. It's not

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Speaker 3: as simple as this is a person who brags, this

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Speaker 3: is a person who looks in the mirror or a lot,

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Speaker 3: this is a person who's superficial, or this is a

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Speaker 3: person who's who's egocentric. It's not that simple. It's so

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Speaker 3: much more subtle. And when we get into the weeds

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Speaker 3: of the subtlety, that's when people really feel understood. But

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Speaker 3: when we make it into more this simplistic black and white,

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Speaker 3: like my boyfriend cheated on me, he's narcissistic, I'm like,

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Speaker 3: your boyfriend cheated on you. But we're gonna have to

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Speaker 3: ask a few more questions to figure out if this

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Speaker 3: guy's narcissistic. That was not a nice thing to do,

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Speaker 3: but not everyone who does that is narcissistic. So I

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Speaker 3: think people are using the word as a hammer to

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Speaker 3: put people down, to paint themselves as the person who's suffering.

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Speaker 3: And it's not that simple. And I think the subtlety

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Speaker 3: means that we have to have a different kind of

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Speaker 3: a conversation. Unfortunately, the Internet and social media aren't built

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Speaker 3: for subtlety.

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Speaker 2: So do you think the word is being overused now

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Speaker 2: or do you think it's okay?

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Speaker 3: I do. I think that there are people who are

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Speaker 3: using it to identify one behavior in a relationship right

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Speaker 3: or they're using it to say, oh my gosh, you

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Speaker 3: takes so many selfie, she's narcissistic. And I'll say slow down.

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Speaker 3: Just because a person posts a lot of selfies. Am

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Speaker 3: I willing to up my bet that they might be narcissistic? Sure?

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Speaker 3: But am I willing to go all in on that bet. No.

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Speaker 3: I mean because it could very well be someone's posting

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Speaker 3: a lot of selfies I don't know, because they think

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Speaker 3: it's fun. But in the same breath, in the other

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Speaker 3: parts of their life, they're empathic, they're compassionate, they don't

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Speaker 3: believe they deserve special treatment, they're emotionally regulated, they don't

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Speaker 3: lash out at other people. So if a person does

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Speaker 3: that and post selfies, it's just like, I don't know,

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Speaker 3: Maybe that's our hobby, that's what they like to do,

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Speaker 3: maybe they like to share their lives. But if they're

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Speaker 3: not harming other people in their life, that this is

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Speaker 3: something I like to do. That's very, very different than

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Speaker 3: the person who's posting selfies and raging at people for

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Speaker 3: not liking their pictures and being jealous of other people

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Speaker 3: who are posting pictures and making fun of other people's

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Speaker 3: pictures and feeling you know, entitled to people paying attention

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Speaker 3: to their special things. Like it's that it's not just

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Speaker 3: the selfies, it's not just the infidelities. It's not just

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Speaker 3: like people who might. I don't know, like one, because

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Speaker 3: a lot on their appearance could be and like I said,

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Speaker 3: it ups the probability, but it's not a guarantee. And

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Speaker 3: I think we have to be careful that if somebody

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Speaker 3: does one selfish thing. My sister didn't come to my

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Speaker 3: birthday party, she's so narcissistic. I want to say, can

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Speaker 3: you tell me a little bit more about your sister?

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Speaker 3: And then i'd have to find now if you keep

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Speaker 3: telling me that this is just one of a thousand

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Speaker 3: of these instances, maybe so, But if that's the thing

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Speaker 3: your sister did, and otherwise you've had a good relationship

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Speaker 3: with her, and the first time she disappoints you, you're

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Speaker 3: calling her narcissistic. Yeah, that's not how that works.

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Speaker 2: So well, I want to ask you a tough question

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Speaker 2: because you're just explaining how subtle it is and how

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Speaker 2: you need all this information to diagnose it or label

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Speaker 2: someone that. But how do you define narcissism? Then if

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Speaker 2: you have to give a simple definition just to kind

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Speaker 2: of get people on the same baseline page, what is narcissism?

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Speaker 2: What is a narcissist?

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Speaker 3: I think right there is there is no simple definition.

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Speaker 3: I think that's whatever wants they want the one liner, right,

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Speaker 3: I mean like I'm going to give you a run

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Speaker 3: on sentence. A personality stable, consistent, what we call pervasive.

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Speaker 3: It cuts across all situations. This is how the person

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Speaker 3: is most of the time, especially in unguarded circumstances like

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Speaker 3: people close to them, Right, And so the things that

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Speaker 3: show up are lack of empathy, self centeredness, grandiosity, arrogance, entitlement,

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Speaker 3: excessive need for admiration and validation. They need to be

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Speaker 3: in control, they need to be the ones in power.

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Speaker 3: And the way this shows up in relationships it again

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Speaker 3: they can be very again domineering and controlling. But the

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Speaker 3: thing you got to remember too is a lot of

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Speaker 3: narcissistic people can be charming and charismatic, confident, compelling, attractive.

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Speaker 3: There's something that's drawing us to them and what makes

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Speaker 3: them sort of it allows them sort of enter situations easily.

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Speaker 3: But at the core of narcissism is a tremendous insecurity

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Speaker 3: and that's the piece that sometimes makes people feel bad like, oh,

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Speaker 3: if they're insecure, well I shouldn't. I shouldn't be dismissive.

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Speaker 3: So it's not about being dismissive it's about being willing

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Speaker 3: to clock their behavior is unacceptable. What's their behavior? Their

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Speaker 3: behavior tends to be very manipulative, dismissive, invalidating gas lighting.

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Speaker 3: They get angry very quickly if they're frustrated, if they're disappointed,

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Speaker 3: they tend to lie. They'll cheat, they will blame, they'll

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Speaker 3: shift blame on other people even though they're clearly responsible.

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Speaker 3: They won't take responsibility for anything. They will breadcrumb. They'll

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Speaker 3: give people less and less and less, and before you

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Speaker 3: know it, you're like, oh my gosh, they said thank you,

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Speaker 3: it was such a good day. You know, like that's

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Speaker 3: probably do low a bar. There is a there's a

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Speaker 3: lot of shame in these relationships, and when they feel shame,

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Speaker 3: they rage out at other people. So there's a lot

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Speaker 3: of volatility, a lot of dysregulation. Narcissistic people often walk

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Speaker 3: around feeling like victims. If things don't go the way

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Speaker 3: they want, they're the victim. There can be overt aggression,

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Speaker 3: there can be passive aggression. That's what narcissism is. And

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Speaker 3: like I said, it really belies an easy one line

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Speaker 3: like narcissistic people or people love themselves, they actually don't

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Speaker 3: love themselves. At all. There's a lot of self loathing

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Speaker 3: in a narcissistic person, but that they're not in touch

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Speaker 3: with all that stuff. So it really comes off as

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Speaker 3: a person who just says, look at me, I'm so

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Speaker 3: great and everyone's lucky to know me.

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Speaker 2: Well, that last is a bit is impactful. Look at me,

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Speaker 2: I'm so great, everybody. Well. I had a therapist tell

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Speaker 2: me this once because I do think I've been in

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Speaker 2: a relationship with a narcissist in the past and I

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Speaker 2: wanted to get your read on if this is an

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Speaker 2: accurate statement or not. This therapist told me, well, narcissism

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Speaker 2: is a spectrum, Like you know, at one end you

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Speaker 2: might have an egotistical person. At the other end you

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Speaker 2: might have like a clinical psychopath. So do you like,

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Speaker 2: how do we then diagnose people as narcissists or could

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Speaker 2: you say someone as narcissistic tendencies? Like what if they

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Speaker 2: check eight of those boxes but they don't lie, but

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Speaker 2: they do a bunch of the other things.

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Speaker 3: Let's lose the word diagnose. Okay, that's the wrong word,

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Speaker 3: because a diagnosis is something that a a clinician does. Right,

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Speaker 3: This isn't a diagnosis, it's a personality style. We might

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Speaker 3: say we we look at a pattern and we think, like,

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Speaker 3: there's a lot of these patterns here, so you're you're

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Speaker 3: the therapist you talk to. Is absolutely right. It is

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Speaker 3: on a spectrum, and at the mild end, you know

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Speaker 3: it is a It's like ecocentricity, selfishness, some arrogance, emotional immaturity,

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Speaker 3: emotional stuntedness at best, sometimes annoying, but if you're in

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Speaker 3: a relationship with them, it's more problematic when you get

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Speaker 3: all the way up to the top of the top

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Speaker 3: of the distribution. Now you're talking about malignant narcissism, which

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Speaker 3: is coercive and manipulative and exploitative. They take advantage of

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Speaker 3: people's vulnerabilities. These are people who are isolating. It's scary.

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Speaker 3: It can even be physically violent. And in between there's

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Speaker 3: all the other All the other stuff shows up. It

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Speaker 3: just shows up to varying or lesser degrees. Psychopathy is

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Speaker 3: its own separate category. While there's a lot of overlap

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Speaker 3: between narcissism and psychopathy, they're not the same thing. So

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Speaker 3: I view the top of that narcissism continuum, malignant narcissism

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Speaker 3: to almost be the last stop on the train where

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Speaker 3: you switch trains to go over to psychopathy station, which

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Speaker 3: is real close by, by the way, And so it

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Speaker 3: is a continuum. And that's why a person who's in

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Speaker 3: a relationship or maybe has a sibling or a parent

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Speaker 3: who's mildly narcissistic, and they were to hear the story

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Speaker 3: of someone who's in a severely narcissistic relationship, they might

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Speaker 3: even say, maybe this person isn't narcissistic. My god, they

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Speaker 3: are sort of mildly narcissistic, but certainly it's not the

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Speaker 3: same as someone who's in a relationship with someone who's

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Speaker 3: malignantly narcissistic. So I think it's when I try to

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Speaker 3: tell people this over and over again, don't get lost

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Speaker 3: in trying to figure out if this person is narcissistic,

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Speaker 3: but give yourself permission to call out patterns in that

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Speaker 3: relationship that are unhealthy. Just call them out to yourself,

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Speaker 3: because if this person's narcissistic, they're not going to listen

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Speaker 3: to you. So it's less about that are they narcissistic,

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Speaker 3: and more about what's happening in this relationship.

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Speaker 2: Oh interesting, See, I feel like I feel like from

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Speaker 2: when I've heard or read it's like, well, with narcissists, like,

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Speaker 2: there's no fixing them. They can't even see their problems,

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Speaker 2: there's no them getting better. And I'm kind of like

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Speaker 2: taking in what you just said that it's more like, well,

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Speaker 2: look at what's happening specifically in this relationship.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's still not going to changeeah. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I agree with it's not going to change, but you

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Speaker 3: But my point is is that when a person's like, well,

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Speaker 3: this is happening, this is happening. It's been happening for

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Speaker 3: ten years, and it happens all the time, and it's happened,

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Speaker 3: are they narcissistic? I'm like, it doesn't matter. You are

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Speaker 3: being emotionally abused. You can call this whatever the hell

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Speaker 3: you want. It's not okay. Guess is that it probably

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Speaker 3: is narcissism. But I think that because we associate the

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Speaker 3: narcissism with the part that's not going to change Anyone

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Speaker 3: who's got these kinds of interpersonally harmful behaviors across situations

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Speaker 3: consistently and shift blame and if you try to point

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Speaker 3: things out, they rage even more. That's not going to change.

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Speaker 3: There's no in if you try to show them what's happening?

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Speaker 3: They scream at you. More so, how are you ever

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Speaker 3: going to facilitate change? There's no possibility. That's what tells

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Speaker 3: you the door shut.

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Speaker 2: Well. And for me, it's a little striking, and I

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Speaker 2: love that you. You know, you're like, it's not it's

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Speaker 2: not you. I think when I kind of got out

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Speaker 2: of that relationship, like you're in it and you're trying

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Speaker 2: to make it work because you know, you think I'm

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Speaker 2: in this relationship and it takes two to tango, and

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Speaker 2: like everybody has stuff they could work on, and I'm

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Speaker 2: not perfect either, and you're trying to make it work.

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Speaker 2: And then you realize that that person, like for me anyway,

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Speaker 2: was not putting in any effort and nothing was changing.

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Speaker 2: And so then that was when I got out of it,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, whoa, maybe I am Like I

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Speaker 2: had been questioning if I myself was capable of a

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Speaker 2: healthy relationship, and I got out of it, and then

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Speaker 2: I'm like, oh no, wait, it wasn't me. I am kidding.

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Speaker 2: And it's a little striking because I also think of

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Speaker 2: myself as a person, and so then I think, but

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Speaker 2: how did I wind up in that? And I wanted

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Speaker 2: to ask you about that, because it's because of what

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Speaker 2: you mentioned earlier when you said that you'd seen in

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Speaker 2: your own life, maybe you had some people like that

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Speaker 2: in your own life as well. So was that a

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Speaker 2: little Did you have an experience like that where you thought, wait,

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Speaker 2: how did I wind up here? Now?

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Speaker 3: All the time? I mean every time, but I guess

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Speaker 3: my question would be too, I'll put it right back

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Speaker 3: at you. How did you think you ended up there?

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Speaker 3: What did you What was the answer for yourself?

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Speaker 2: I think that I had lost my dad and so

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Speaker 2: I was in a state of grief and didn't realize it.

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Speaker 2: And then I got very close with the person's family

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Speaker 2: very quickly, and really I kind of fell in love

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Speaker 2: with the family more than him. And then as time

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Speaker 2: went on, I was like, oh wait, I wasn't even

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Speaker 2: like in this relationship, and I kind of saw he

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Speaker 2: really was.

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Speaker 3: I'm so glad you brought that up.

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Speaker 2: Lord.

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Speaker 3: Actually, it's a really important point because a lot of

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Speaker 3: people wonder, like what happened, like, let me play it out?

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Speaker 3: In fact, you just lay out laid out here a

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Speaker 3: really important exercise I do with survivors, which is this

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Speaker 3: idea of let's play out this timeline and you just

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Speaker 3: you know, you you identified such an important point here,

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Speaker 3: which was when I met him, I had you know,

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Speaker 3: I was going through this really transitional phase in my life,

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Speaker 3: and I always this is why when you when you

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Speaker 3: meet new when you're entering relationships after a big breakup,

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Speaker 3: a move to a new city, a major loss in

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Speaker 3: your family, you have to be very careful because you're

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Speaker 3: not on your game in the same way, and you're

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Speaker 3: often looking for something that's actually beyond traditional intimacy, like

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Speaker 3: a place to land, a place to belong, and because

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Speaker 3: of that, you may not miss you, and so you

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Speaker 3: may not see some of the patterns, like a person

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Speaker 3: moving to a new city is just so relieved to

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Speaker 3: have a place, like a person to be in touch

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Speaker 3: with that we might be more likely to excuse things

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Speaker 3: that we wouldn't have if we were in a much

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Speaker 3: more sort of unsteady footing, we'd be like that, not okay,

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Speaker 3: but somehow in the newer, in that transitional space or

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Speaker 3: when we're trying to find something else, we're more likely

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Speaker 3: to do it. So it's it's interesting because being in

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Speaker 3: a transitional space like that, or being in a rush

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Speaker 3: like people are like Okay, I'm thirty six. I got

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Speaker 3: to get me into a relationship kind of thing. Is

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Speaker 3: that is also a tricky spot because people will be like, Okay,

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Speaker 3: this person's manning four out of the things on my list.

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Speaker 3: That's enough, and you're like, okay, we'll deal with the

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Speaker 3: rest of that later. It's almost like I'm just gonna

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Speaker 3: put everything in a closet and deal with it later.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, that's going to catch up on you. And

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Speaker 3: so that's with the That's one of the issues is

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Speaker 3: that you by understanding that how so many of us

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Speaker 3: when we go back to that origin story, there was

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Speaker 3: either a we were drawn and I'm guessing even with

395
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Speaker 3: your former partner, there was something quite compelling. You were

396
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Speaker 3: drawn to, whether they were attractive, interesting, confident, charming, charismatic.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes even people say it's interesting. They weren't any of

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Speaker 3: those things, but they were there seemed to be like

399
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Speaker 3: this kind of underdog, unlucky feel. And the person says,

400
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Speaker 3: and I own it. I'm a fixer and I wanted

401
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Speaker 3: to get in there and give them a car and

402
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Speaker 3: give them a place to live and help them. And

403
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Speaker 3: they said, I I feel alive when I help people.

404
00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:05,280
Speaker 3: The problem is then instead, they don't even identify it

405
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Speaker 3: as sort of the love bombing, because it's more of

406
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Speaker 3: this kind of I was helping them, and I felt

407
00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,199
Speaker 3: good about it, and I could see some shifts, and

408
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Speaker 3: then they were in this relationship with someone who's always

409
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Speaker 3: a victim and passive aggressive, and you're like, huh, So

410
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Speaker 3: my point is is that all of us are attracted

411
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Speaker 3: to narcissistic people because they're attractive. Okay, all of us are,

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Speaker 3: in our fashion attractive to narcissistic people because we're all

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Speaker 3: attractive in our own unique ways, right, we all represent

414
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Speaker 3: different kinds of supply. The real question and the real

415
00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,240
Speaker 3: problem learning comes down to who gets stuck in these

416
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Speaker 3: relationships because some people will see those patterns and say, ye, no,

417
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Speaker 3: this isn't cool and I'm going to get out. But

418
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Speaker 3: there's things about us that make us more vulnerable to

419
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Speaker 3: getting stuck, and that could be having had narcissistic parents

420
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Speaker 3: and early history of trauma, being a forgiver, like believing

421
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Speaker 3: I'm going to just keep giving them second chances, being

422
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:03,280
Speaker 3: a rescue were, being optimistic, being really empathic. All of

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00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,080
Speaker 3: those things make you more vulnerable to getting stuck. So

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Speaker 3: you have these vulnerabilities to getting into the first place,

425
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Speaker 3: but more importantly, we have vulnerabilities to getting stuck. And

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Speaker 3: those are the more meaningful ones because I think we

427
00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,879
Speaker 3: all at some level are attracted to them, and it

428
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,679
Speaker 3: made sense what we were attracted to. But if we're at

429
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:21,239
Speaker 3: all in a tricky spot. And I know for some

430
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:23,960
Speaker 3: folks i've met, I was in a transitional phase and

431
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,560
Speaker 3: that's what made me. That's what made me sort of

432
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:28,520
Speaker 3: off my game. And that's why I always say, if

433
00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:30,080
Speaker 3: you're gonna, if you're going to go out there and

434
00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,439
Speaker 3: try to meet people, it's like the Olympics, Like you

435
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,560
Speaker 3: got to be in your touch, your your fighting shape

436
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,080
Speaker 3: and weight, Like you've got to be meaning that you've

437
00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:41,439
Speaker 3: got to be in a good place, right, Like a

438
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,080
Speaker 3: relationship is never a substitute for a crappy life.

439
00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:49,639
Speaker 2: Wow, the title of your next book right there? You

440
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:51,440
Speaker 2: know what can you expand on that for me and

441
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,639
Speaker 2: really break it down, like what what place should people

442
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,080
Speaker 2: be in when they're looking for a relationship. What are

443
00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,680
Speaker 2: some hallmarks of like their mental state and where they're

444
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 2: at in their life When it's like, okay, you can

445
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,360
Speaker 2: now go have a good, healthy relationship, because I think

446
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 2: so often we're out there trying to find the right person,

447
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:09,840
Speaker 2: not making sure that we're in the right place for

448
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:11,000
Speaker 2: the right relationship.

449
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 3: So right place would be a solid social support network

450
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:20,000
Speaker 3: around you, robust friendships if you're fortunate, family relationships called

451
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,240
Speaker 3: collegial relationships, member, you know, being a part of whatever

452
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,360
Speaker 3: community groups, whatever your social network is. That that's you've

453
00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:28,199
Speaker 3: got to have that number one. That's got to be

454
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,919
Speaker 3: in place, because social other people, social support, those social

455
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,920
Speaker 3: networks are so important, and the idea of a one

456
00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 3: person relationship, I think a lot of people delude themselves

457
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:39,479
Speaker 3: like if I've got my person, I'll be fine. The

458
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:41,919
Speaker 3: hell you will. Your network is actually gonna end up

459
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 3: being more important. That's number one. Number two is that

460
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:50,679
Speaker 3: you have you have things in your life that are yours,

461
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,560
Speaker 3: whether they're meaningful and purposeful, through your work, through your

462
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,720
Speaker 3: things you do in your community, through creative endeavors, things

463
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,240
Speaker 3: that matter to you that you know like this is

464
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,760
Speaker 3: my this is my thing, like this and I'm going

465
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:06,560
Speaker 3: to do it, and I'm going to it matters to

466
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 3: me to build it in my life. That you're very

467
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,880
Speaker 3: aware that you've got that piece in that you are

468
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 3: in a you've got healthy routines. I know it sounds silly, like, oh,

469
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:17,760
Speaker 3: come to me, like brush your teeth. Yeah, kind of

470
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,159
Speaker 3: brush your teeth, Like you've got things like you do,

471
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:22,239
Speaker 3: and you've got rhythms in your life. That gets back

472
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,359
Speaker 3: to that transitional space because one and you don't have

473
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 3: to live someplace twenty five years of a routine. It's

474
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:28,680
Speaker 3: just that you've got things in your life that are

475
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,480
Speaker 3: your touchstones and your landmarks, and they're predictable and you

476
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,360
Speaker 3: value those and I think that those things we kind

477
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 3: of have to have. Those things that obviously we have

478
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 3: to address our mental health. Like a person who is

479
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 3: whatever mental health issues may be coming up that they

480
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 3: feel like they haven't addressed, it would be good to

481
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 3: address those because those sorts of things, too can lead

482
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 3: someone to doubt their judgment with a new person or

483
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 3: almost sometimes sell themselves short as they're meeting people. Those

484
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,400
Speaker 3: things matter. But I'm gonna be serious with you, girl,

485
00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:59,679
Speaker 3: like I have to say I've met narcissistic people when

486
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 3: I was at the top of my game, and that

487
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:03,639
Speaker 3: I have to say to a lot of people listening

488
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:05,360
Speaker 3: to this. I think there's people saying, you know, when

489
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 3: I met the narcissistic person I was. I loved my job,

490
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 3: I love my apartment, I love my friends. So while

491
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,959
Speaker 3: those things are important, they're not a narcissism antidote effect

492
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 3: of anything. People kind of almost get I don't want

493
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 3: to say cocky, but cocky where they think like, I'm

494
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 3: in a great place. And so when the things start happening,

495
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 3: because a narcissistic relationship isn't a switch that goes on,

496
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 3: We're having a great relationship. Now I'm going to gaslight

497
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 3: you twenty times a day. It's a slow indoctrination, and

498
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,359
Speaker 3: so you're in this great thing and it kind of

499
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 3: gets worse slowly. I always say it starts off like

500
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 3: ninety nine percent good and maybe one percent bad. Then

501
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,920
Speaker 3: it goes down to ninety percent good, ten percent bad,

502
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 3: eighty percent good, twenty percent bad, seventy thirty, sixty, forty.

503
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:51,920
Speaker 3: One day you wake up, it's fifty to fifty. By

504
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 3: fifty to fifty, though, you're probably doing a lot of

505
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:58,120
Speaker 3: mental heavy lifting around justifying and rationalizing. And maybe it's

506
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 3: me and maybe I'm being too demand or maybe I'm

507
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 3: being too selfish about wanting to hold onto my former

508
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,199
Speaker 3: life forty sixty thirty seventy one day you wake up

509
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 3: and you're at ten ninety and it's just not a

510
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 3: good scene. And every so often maybe there's a less

511
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 3: abusive day or something.

512
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 2: And then that makes you hold on.

513
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 3: You're like, it makes you hold on, like, well, they

514
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 3: didn't yell at me today, right, Like it's not even

515
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 3: like we had great sex. It's like they didn't yell

516
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:22,880
Speaker 3: at me, and that's a good day.

517
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 2: The bar is on the floor, the bars the.

518
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 3: Bar is not on the floor. The bar is subterraneous.

519
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 3: It's like under the ground.

520
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:35,880
Speaker 2: Is the narcissist conscious of turning that dial up slowly

521
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 2: or is it just in their nature and that's what

522
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 2: they do in relationships.

523
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 3: I think that it's it's in their nature. I don't

524
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,439
Speaker 3: think it's like they've got a calendar like, okay, you know,

525
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,680
Speaker 3: June seventeenth, let's start the devalue phase. It's not that.

526
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 3: I think what happens is for narcissistic people are very

527
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 3: novelty seeking, so they get bored easily, and so once

528
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 3: they have, like I say, narcissistic supply gets stale. But

529
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,120
Speaker 3: that doesn't mean they want to throw it out. They're

530
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,399
Speaker 3: like costco. They just keep lots of stuff on the shelf,

531
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 3: and so they will keep you around because you serve

532
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 3: some function to them. You might be a source of status,

533
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 3: You might connect them to certain people. You might be predictable,

534
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 3: You might make them look good in public because now

535
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 3: they have a fiance or they have a girlfriend or

536
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 3: a wife or a partner or whatever. And so you

537
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 3: serve a function, you're part of a performance, and so

538
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 3: they're not ready to give up your part. But it's

539
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 3: almost like once they know they've got you. I always

540
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,879
Speaker 3: say it's like a butterfly under glass. Once they capture

541
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 3: the butterfly under glass, they kind of put it on

542
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,879
Speaker 3: a shelf and forget about it. And so they chase

543
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 3: you for a while to get you and the net

544
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 3: and get you under the glass. And once they get

545
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 3: you under the glass, you're a beautiful thing that sits

546
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:42,159
Speaker 3: on the shelf.

547
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:47,880
Speaker 2: Oh this is hitting me so hard right now. Yeah. Wow,

548
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 2: I feel like you just answered a part something for

549
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,880
Speaker 2: me about that relationship, because I wondered, like why did

550
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 2: he bother? Like I was like, you know, if you

551
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 2: want to live your life, like go live that way,

552
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 2: why did you bother to be in a committed relationship

553
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,159
Speaker 2: with me, you know, if it wasn't like really what

554
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 2: you wanted if you want to be that Like, this

555
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 2: makes so much sense. The status collection and the butterfly

556
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 2: under the glass, Well we got a fly free think,

557
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 2: you know. And by the way, I'm like, thank god

558
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 2: I got out. I'm so happy now. It taught me

559
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 2: so much. I really believe, like we have to learn

560
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:19,400
Speaker 2: where we've been, and if you're happy where you are,

561
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 2: you can't regret where you've been because it led me here.

562
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:25,640
Speaker 2: But what how much do people have to look out

563
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 2: for this? Like is there data on what percentage of

564
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 2: people out there are on that narcissism spectrum or or

565
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 2: I don't know if it if maybe you give me

566
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 2: that number by saying they would be narcissists holy or

567
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 2: just somewhere on the spectrum. What's the percentage?

568
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 3: We don't have great data and actually my my myself

569
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:47,160
Speaker 3: and my collaborator, doctor Heather Harris, we collected some data

570
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,679
Speaker 3: and we did we did what was called a general

571
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,880
Speaker 3: population survey, so instead of just focusing on a specific group,

572
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 3: we went out It's like almost like dipping a ladel

573
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 3: into the ocean and pulling it out like you're from

574
00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 3: the biggest body of water instead of just a tiny

575
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 3: little well. And in that sample, and this is really

576
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 3: rough numbers, we just collected this data. What we were

577
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 3: finding was, you know, we were finding rates in the

578
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 3: way we were measuring it, of about ten percent, so

579
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 3: one in ten, one in ten people who are narcissistic

580
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 3: enough where you'd notice it where it caused problems in

581
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,439
Speaker 3: a relationship kind of thing. Right, So it's not so

582
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 3: mild that people would be like whatever, they like their

583
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 3: selfies or you know, they're obsessed with getting plastic surgery

584
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 3: or whatever. You know, the people like, it's not they're

585
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 3: not mean, they're sort of ridiculous, but that's about it.

586
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 3: The one in ten is enough that people are like, yeah, no,

587
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 3: this isn't cool, Like there is manipulation, There is that

588
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 3: kind of thing. So that's I think that's not a

589
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 3: bad guess. Now, in that ten percent, we have the

590
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 3: whole range from the mild to the severe. If I

591
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 3: would say the severe probably one to three percent of

592
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 3: the total. You know, I would say that the milder one,

593
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 3: you know, the milder ones are all like it's probably

594
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 3: pretty even, but maybe the least the least would be

595
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 3: the one percent of the entire population would be the

596
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 3: severe one to two percent, and then we'd see the

597
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 3: higher percentages of the moderate and the milder ones.

598
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 2: So, yeah, is addiction connected to narcissisms?

599
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot. There's a high correlation. I would say

600
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 3: when you look at addiction, probably fifty to sixty percent

601
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 3: overlap that. About sixty fifty to sixty percent of people

602
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 3: living with addiction also have narcissistic personalities. It it's very

603
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 3: interesting here because I've worked with enough folks who said,

604
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 3: you know, had a partner and they were there was

605
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 3: lots of denial, and they were really selfish, and they

606
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 3: were unempathic, and they were entitled da da da da

607
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 3: la la la. And then they and they were also

608
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,959
Speaker 3: an alcoholic and they were rageful. And then they went

609
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 3: to treatment and they went to twelve step and they

610
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 3: did all the things. They worked the steps and they

611
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 3: said and they came out the other end and it

612
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 3: was like a new person and it was no longer

613
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 3: a tough relationship. And they assumed that the person was

614
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 3: narcissistic because they had all the narcissistic step. But then

615
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 3: they went through treatment, they were sober, and they'd been

616
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 3: sober for a few years, and like, this is much better.

617
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 3: That to me is probably someone who just had addiction.

618
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 3: When you have someone who has both, they will go

619
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 3: through treatment, they will stop drinking, stop using, whatever come out,

620
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 3: and maybe six, nine, twelve months out are not using.

621
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 3: But they're still manipulative, they're still gaslighting, they're still entitled.

622
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 3: They might even weaponize their sobriety. Look how much better

623
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 3: I am than you? Like that kind of stuff, And

624
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 3: in those circumstances, family, loved ones, friends will be like

625
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 3: there as bad as always. Maybe the rage is a

626
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 3: little bit tamped down, but this is as bad as always.

627
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 3: When we thought if they got sober, things would get better,

628
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 3: that's when I hear the story that there was a

629
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 3: lot of narcissism under that addiction. And the problem is

630
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 3: a lot of substance abuse. Substance use treatment it's not

631
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 3: focused addiction. Treatment is not focused on personality. We don't

632
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 3: have enough time. It's often like twenty eight day to

633
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 3: six week if you're lucky treatment centers. Probably about ninety

634
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 3: percent of people living with addiction don't have access to

635
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 3: high quality treatment, while twelve is free and in some

636
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 3: ways twelve step programs do kind of try to chip

637
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 3: away at the narcissism by addressing things like accountability and

638
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 3: you know, the relative powerlessness, like taking away that sense

639
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 3: of power, making genuine amends, addressing selfishness, being humble. Those

640
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 3: are actually attempts to dismantle the narcissism. But I've known

641
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 3: plenty of people go through twelve step and they're still

642
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 3: they're showing up to twelve step narcissistic. It's almost like

643
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 3: competitive twelve step or something, which is not really how

644
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 3: the program is.

645
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 2: So I want to ask before I forget. You mentioned

646
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 2: earlier like being vulnerable and that might make you or

647
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 2: being in a transition phase, and that might mean, you know,

648
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 2: all these things that you might be more vulnerable to

649
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 2: a relationship with a narcissist. And you mentioned if you

650
00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 2: had narcissistic parents, So why you if you have narcissistic parents,

651
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 2: why is that making you more vulnerable to maybe being

652
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 2: in a relationship with a narcissist.

653
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 3: So having a narcissistic relationship is a great question. Having

654
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 3: a narcissistic relationship is very impactful developmentally, because from a

655
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 3: very early age, these are children who are basically they're

656
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 3: not parented as much as they're in the service of

657
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 3: the narcissistic parent. They have to be what the parent wants.

658
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 3: They If they behave badly, the parent personalizes, how could

659
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 3: you do this to me? When the child expresses feelings,

660
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 3: the parent will often shame them, how could you? You're

661
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 3: so selfish? You make everything about your Yeah, they're a kid,

662
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 3: and so if the child has a need the parent

663
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 3: will feel it. Will often say they're inconvenienced about it,

664
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 3: or that it's selfish. The child has that The child

665
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 3: is often only noticed when they're a convenience to the

666
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 3: parent or they're making the parent look good. So all

667
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 3: of that combines to really teach a child that the

668
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 3: only way I can attach to this caregiving person in

669
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 3: my life is to become what they want. I can't

670
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 3: be my true self. If my true self shows up,

671
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 3: it will be dangerous. This person is going to reject me.

672
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 3: Kid can't take that kind of a risk. So the

673
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 3: child really learns to suppress themselves. The clinical term is

674
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 3: the subjugated itself. They just sort of they become what

675
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:13,959
Speaker 3: the other person, in many ways wants to survive. You know,

676
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 3: and depending on how severe the parent's narcissism is it

677
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 3: can be actually be quite traumatizing and unsettling, and so

678
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 3: you never quite feel psychologically safe. So the child learns

679
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 3: a safety behavior in all of this is really to

680
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 3: sort of to give in or to sort of hold back,

681
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 3: but more than anything is to cut off parts of

682
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 3: themselves because it's too dangerous for those things to show up.

683
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 3: And that love is conditional. So if that's the model

684
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 3: you grew up with, and now you're out in the

685
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 3: world meeting people, then when somebody's behaving like that, and

686
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 3: I'm not, by no means am I saying that people

687
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 3: who grow up with the narcissistic people are massa chiss

688
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 3: or signing up for this. What happens is is that

689
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 3: when they get into a relationship and it starts out

690
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 3: good and all of that, when that's slow in validation

691
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 3: that ninety ten, eighty twenty I was talking about, When

692
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 3: that slow invalidation kind of kicks in, then the person

693
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 3: sort of it's it's you've been indoctrinated to believe that's

694
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,719
Speaker 3: somewhat normal, and in fact to express the need is

695
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,280
Speaker 3: not good. So the first time the narcissistic your partner

696
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 3: tells you, you're being selfish for expressing a need that's

697
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,919
Speaker 3: actually completely in line with anything you've ever known. In fact,

698
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 3: you doesn't even feel like weird in your body. You're like,

699
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 3: of course, here, I am being selfish again. We may

700
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,359
Speaker 3: not run away from the so called red flags because

701
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 3: they're sort of normalized, and it really diminishes your sense

702
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 3: of self to have a narcissistic parent. So it's a

703
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,280
Speaker 3: lot harder to advocate for yourself, to stand up for yourself,

704
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 3: to show up as your real self. You may not

705
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,320
Speaker 3: even know what that is because it was never allowed

706
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 3: to blossom or develop. So those are all the ways

707
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 3: that it can make you more vulnerable.

708
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 2: I mean, was Freud right on? Like? Are we all

709
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:52,800
Speaker 2: is our? Are we all looking for love that's similar

710
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 2: to our parents and love we had with our parents?

711
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 2: Is that an element?

712
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 3: I don't think so. I actually don't think we are.

713
00:34:57,680 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 3: There's something that's something really important to keep in mind.

714
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 3: And this is where I hope anyone listening to this

715
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 3: who's younger, and as we talk more about mental health

716
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 3: and give more permission to it, and you know, therapy

717
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 3: is not the sort of thing you hide from everyone.

718
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 3: Is that the degree to which we could create a

719
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 3: coherent narrative about our childhood that accounts for everything to say, like,

720
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 3: my parent was super selfish, they were in no position

721
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 3: to be a parent. My bad luck was I got

722
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 3: assigned to them as them being my parent, and as

723
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 3: a result, I didn't learn to express myself and I

724
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:31,439
Speaker 3: got to take a minute and figure out who I

725
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 3: am and understand, like this could be my parent. I

726
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 3: can even kind of have that sense of love or

727
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 3: duty or obligation to a parent, but recognize like not cool,

728
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 3: like this was not okay. When we can hold on

729
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 3: to something like that, we're actually in a better position

730
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 3: to say, who this feels like it's happening again. But

731
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 3: since most people when we meet people, we tend to

732
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 3: be younger, right, we often tend to get into relationships,

733
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 3: especially some people get into their permanent relationships in their

734
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 3: twenties or long term relationships twenties early thirties. It's amazing

735
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 3: how unself examined remain up to that point, because there's

736
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:05,879
Speaker 3: still a lot of neural development happening till we're twenty five.

737
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 3: The prefrontal cortex is still rocking and rolling until you're

738
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 3: about twenty five years old, and so it's by the

739
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 3: time all that happens, you're you're already at an age

740
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 3: of people. I think you're getting into relationships, and so

741
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 3: that creation is a coherent narrative that you know, either

742
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 3: people it's one extreme or the other. Like cause also

743
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 3: some people like I have nothing to do with my family,

744
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,280
Speaker 3: they harmed me so much at the level of trauma,

745
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 3: that's a different kind of working through. But I think

746
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:33,280
Speaker 3: that that you're not. Nobody's doomed, but I think it's trickier.

747
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 3: And if somebody had a parent like this, there's a

748
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 3: little bit more work that needs to be done. And

749
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:42,399
Speaker 3: in essence, you almost have to move slower into a relationship.

750
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 3: So you can almost like let each step settle. It's

751
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 3: almost like walking into cold water, like okay, let me

752
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 3: let my feet get we a little warm market, let's

753
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 3: go up to my knees instead of running with reckless

754
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 3: abandon into the surf. And so you got to take

755
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 3: a minute and kind of get used to it, because

756
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 3: otherwise those old pad can flood us and it's and

757
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 3: then we feel like this is you know, this is

758
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,880
Speaker 3: how it is. This is how relationships are well and.

759
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 2: What you said about being in a good place with

760
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:13,399
Speaker 2: friendships with you know, work with colleagues. I think that's

761
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 2: so important. And I think what we tend to do

762
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 2: is we tend to think the relationship is going to

763
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 2: solve everything in our life. Right, Like when people move

764
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,400
Speaker 2: to a new city, they start dating and they're lonely,

765
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 2: and they're like, well, I just I haven't met anyone

766
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 2: here yet. And you know, we all it's wonderful to

767
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 2: search for love because you know, I think we're all

768
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 2: here to find love and love is the most beautiful

769
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 2: thing on earth. But I don't think love is going

770
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 2: to solve all your problems. And I don't think that

771
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:42,239
Speaker 2: your romantic relationship needs to be the end all be

772
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 2: all in your life. Like all these other parts of

773
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 2: us are so important and actually make our romantic relationships better,

774
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 2: but we don't do that. We look for the love,

775
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:51,919
Speaker 2: especially when we're young.

776
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 3: It's a bad cell. I mean, I think it's the

777
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 3: fairy tale cell. I think it's patriarchal cell.

778
00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 2: I think it's too so why do you think it's

779
00:37:58,600 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 2: a patriarchal cell.

780
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 3: Because I mean, when you think of the original construction

781
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 3: of marriage, it really did benefit men. It's long term caregiving.

782
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 3: It's it's meals, it's children raised, it's a maintenance of

783
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 3: a power structure. I mean, I don't want to sound

784
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 3: like I'm anti long term committed relationship. I think there's

785
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,240
Speaker 3: I think a healthy, long term committed relationship is a huge,

786
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 3: huge contributor to psychological health. But I think this idea

787
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 3: of your one person forever or that has to happen

788
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:26,760
Speaker 3: when you're younger, even though women have to have children,

789
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 3: I think to allow people to take that time with

790
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 3: themselves subjectively and say what could this look like with me?

791
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 3: One thing? I'm really inspired, especially when I'm seeing younger

792
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 3: gen z. They're making a lot more. They're being more

793
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 3: creative in their decision making around relationships. And I think

794
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 3: some in my age, I mean like there was only

795
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 3: one path to take and if you didn't, you were

796
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:47,839
Speaker 3: weird and so but I think that you know, we

797
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,799
Speaker 3: know actually for the longest time marriage benefited men more

798
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:52,759
Speaker 3: than women. It did because I mean, think about it,

799
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:54,840
Speaker 3: somebody came into my house and decided to clean it

800
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 3: and cook me meals and have sex with me and

801
00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 3: do stuff for me. I'm like, where do I sign

802
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 3: up for this? Like, I mean that's not how it

803
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 3: works for me.

804
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 2: I don't know how many times my girlfriends and I

805
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 2: are like, oh, I wish I had a wife, Like

806
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 2: you know, we go on a girl's trip and everything's

807
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,839
Speaker 2: so easy, Like somebody's making breakfast, somebody else is doing

808
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 2: the laundry, someone else is straightening up from last night,

809
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 2: and things are just getting done. And again that's not

810
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 2: to say they're about like I have a great partner

811
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 2: who really contributes to the house. But traditionally I know

812
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:22,800
Speaker 2: what you mean.

813
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:24,879
Speaker 3: But I'm saying at the population level, That's why I'm

814
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 3: saying is that I think that push on like you're

815
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 3: one person in your fairy tale and it's it's it's

816
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:33,879
Speaker 3: I mean, think of all the kids raised on Disney movies, right,

817
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 3: every Disney movie is another experiment and dysfunctional relationship, and

818
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 3: I think that it really sets up this like oh,

819
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 3: if you if you give up your legs, you can

820
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 3: have the guy, or give up your tail, you can

821
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 3: have the guy. I'm like, no, giving up stuff like

822
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 3: The Little Mermaid is the ultimate subjugation story, literally giving

823
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 3: up her own emphasize that she gives up her voice

824
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 3: and she gives up her tail and she gives up

825
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 3: her home. Ladies don't give us stuff off, please.

826
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:00,800
Speaker 2: I know it's weird. I was just talking to my

827
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 2: friend about this the other day, Like, somehow, even for

828
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 2: the smartest, most accomplished women, I know, sometimes it's like

829
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 2: and I don't think it's super conscious, but there's still

830
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 2: a deferring to the men. Like like a couple who's

831
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 2: talking about where they're going to live, Like we were

832
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 2: looking at our friend and going like, but why did

833
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 2: the guy win in that discussion? Like why did they

834
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 2: end up living where he wanted? And I don't know

835
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,359
Speaker 2: if it's women like kind of being easy going and

836
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:33,359
Speaker 2: sort of deferring and not problem causing and not demanding,

837
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:35,839
Speaker 2: you know, but I still see that quite a lot,

838
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 2: I think, even in relationships that are a lot more

839
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 2: equal than ones that I saw like our mothers having.

840
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:43,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think that there's also there's some

841
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 3: you know where I think when you start seeing in

842
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 3: the narcissism world hitting sort of the dysfunctional relationship world.

843
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 3: I also think that particularly women, but not just women,

844
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:53,799
Speaker 3: but I think women a lot get that what I

845
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:57,319
Speaker 3: call the easy breezy message, right, be easy breezy, Like

846
00:40:57,360 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 3: I'm cool, like I'm the cool girl. Let go along

847
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,720
Speaker 3: with anything, like you know, the cool girl. The cool girl,

848
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 3: I'm convinced is something that the narcissistic people dropped into

849
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 3: the into the into the narcissism into the internet world,

850
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 3: so that people are like, I want to be the cool,

851
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 3: easy breezy girl. I'm a cool, easy breezy girl, has

852
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 3: no needs and has no voice and no, no, no,

853
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 3: no, no no. It's and I'm not saying be rigid demanding person.

854
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 3: No no no, I'm saying that have needs and wants

855
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,879
Speaker 3: and voice them and and have it be a conversation. Rather,

856
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 3: I'm just going to go with the flow because I

857
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 3: don't want to lose this person. I don't want to

858
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 3: seem needy. That's often where and that in a he

859
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,400
Speaker 3: with a healthy partner that could end up being the

860
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 3: healthy partner saying and even that can even be a

861
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 3: little bit taken advantage of there, but the healthy partner say, hey, no,

862
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:47,320
Speaker 3: I want to hear what you want to do. Do you

863
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 3: want to move here or not? Because if you don't,

864
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 3: then we need to find a compromise, be cause I

865
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 3: don't want you to be unhappy in this place, right,

866
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,320
Speaker 3: But I but with a narcissistic partner and you're easy, breezy,

867
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,959
Speaker 3: forget it your toast, they will completely run rough shot

868
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,879
Speaker 3: over that. And I think a lot of people are

869
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 3: sold that bill of goods at the easier like flexible

870
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 3: is great, but zacly like giving up on yourself is not.

871
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 3: And that's I'm not saying that's even that final line,

872
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 3: but I think people have trouble saying that, Like, I

873
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 3: want to be flexible, flexible super flexible means still having needs.

874
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:24,840
Speaker 3: Flexible still means still making things known, preferences known, and understanding.

875
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 3: You may still not get the thing you want, but

876
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 3: you felt heard, so compromises can be made wherever you

877
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 3: end up, if that makes sense. And I think we

878
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 3: viewed as an either or that's the problem.

879
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 2: And that's I think the older I get, the more

880
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 2: I realize, like those subtleties are hard to see, like

881
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 2: like you're mentioning the Disney thing. When you're little, you're

882
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:46,360
Speaker 2: raised on stories of heroes and villains and good and evil,

883
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:48,319
Speaker 2: and then the older you get you realize all the

884
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:51,319
Speaker 2: gray area of people and the gray area of relationships

885
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 2: and conversations like yep, and yeah, I think there was

886
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 2: a lot of like how I wound up in that

887
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 2: relationship was a lot of like relationships take work, and

888
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 2: so you're working at it, but then you have to

889
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 2: see those subtleties of like but is this too much work?

890
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:08,800
Speaker 2: Is this fair amount of work? Is the other person working?

891
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,319
Speaker 2: And you have to sort through all that. So when

892
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:13,799
Speaker 2: you're sitting and you're talking to someone who's maybe like

893
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 2: actively in a relationship with a narcissist, and you can

894
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 2: see it, but maybe they can't see it. What are

895
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 2: things that you say, Like, I'm thinking of people who

896
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 2: are worried about their girlfriend who's in a relationship, or

897
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 2: their guy friend or whatever. What do you say to

898
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 2: your friend to kind of make them wake up or

899
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 2: see or what are some things where you can help

900
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 2: people easily pinpoint hey, this is not good and it's

901
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:34,399
Speaker 2: not going to get better.

902
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 3: Well, first of all, one thing you don't want to do, ever,

903
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:38,799
Speaker 3: is go up to them and say, hey, I think

904
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 3: your husband, wife's, spouse, partner, whatever, your boo whatever is

905
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 3: a narcissist. Don't do that. It's a big mistake because

906
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 3: it's a big word, and it's an overwhelming word, and

907
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:52,279
Speaker 3: it's not going to move the needle. You're not going

908
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 3: to help your friend. More often than not, your friend's

909
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:56,799
Speaker 3: going to push back and say what and they might

910
00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:00,360
Speaker 3: even defend the partner more, which now you're digging deeper

911
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 3: into that hole. The best thing you can do is

912
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 3: if you're watching something like this happen at a private moment,

913
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 3: just check in, like you doing okay, and they'm like, yeah,

914
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 3: why you know, I just saw that in the kitchen

915
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 3: and I'm gonna be honest with you like that was

916
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 3: hard to listen to it. Who's felt critical. I just

917
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:18,919
Speaker 3: wanted to hear if you're doing okay now. I could

918
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,879
Speaker 3: almost promise you the first time you do that, the

919
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 3: person you approach like the friend, they're gonna say, no, no,

920
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 3: it wasn't. But there's something else happening that you're not

921
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,359
Speaker 3: aware of. You've put a light on something that they

922
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:32,879
Speaker 3: kind of knew wasn't cool, and for the first time,

923
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 3: you're kind of on gaslighting them. And but they're not

924
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 3: going to say that to you right away. They're gonna

925
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,319
Speaker 3: they're gonna they're say no, no, I was cool like that,

926
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 3: that's nothing, But inside the wheels are starting to churn,

927
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 3: and to reassure them saying okay, okay, I don't want

928
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 3: to overstep. I'm here, you know, I just you know,

929
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,879
Speaker 3: you're amazing and I want you to be treated well.

930
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,239
Speaker 3: And you take and then take ownership and say I

931
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 3: didn't love what I saw. That one interaction could be

932
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:00,759
Speaker 3: enough for somebody to say I was right. Isn't cool?

933
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 3: But I didn't know? And then it might and then

934
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 3: you might and you gently approach again, gently approach again.

935
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 3: You might even do things like, hey, you know what,

936
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:11,799
Speaker 3: there's this new something something you want to go spend

937
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 3: a few hours just you and me go and as friends,

938
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 3: and then check in and see how they're doing. You

939
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 3: might even see them loosen up and you know, and

940
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 3: then slowly have them comment on that it'll come around

941
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 3: quicker than you think. But what you can't do is

942
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:27,360
Speaker 3: they're narcissistic. Now, obviously this doesn't apply in cases where

943
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:29,839
Speaker 3: there's physical abuse or anything like that. I'm talking more

944
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 3: of like the sort of that that psychological poking and

945
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 3: slicing away. It's like the death by a thousand cuts

946
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 3: that's happening in front of you. You know, you have

947
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 3: to be careful even calling it the narcissistic out narcissistic

948
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 3: person out. Let's say you know the narcissistic person well,

949
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:45,759
Speaker 3: and you can say like, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, what

950
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,239
Speaker 3: are you doing? You might have some power there, but

951
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 3: you have to be careful because that narcissistic person then

952
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 3: may go doubly hard at the person in a relationship

953
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 3: with them. But I think it's pointing out and saying

954
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 3: I saw something it wasn't cool. I hope you're okay.

955
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 3: I saw it, I didn't think it was okay. I

956
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 3: got you, and then let them run with them.

957
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 2: I have one big question. I don't know if it's

958
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 2: easy to answer, but I feel like I've seen it.

959
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 2: I'm thinking of a friend who was in a bad

960
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 2: marriage that it took time, but she finally got out

961
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:29,280
Speaker 2: of it. I'm thinking of a friend who was struggling

962
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:33,839
Speaker 2: with acknowledging that their mom was narcissistic. Because here's what's

963
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 2: painful is feeling like we weren't loved. So are narcissists

964
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 2: capable of love?

965
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 3: It's a tricky question. It's sort of because it's almost

966
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,720
Speaker 3: a philosophical question as much as it's a psychological question.

967
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 3: What's love right? And what does it mean? Because I

968
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 3: can tell you right now, you, me and everyone listening

969
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:55,839
Speaker 3: to this might have different definitions. For some people, love

970
00:46:56,160 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 3: is love is saying I love you. When people love

971
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 3: is having sex. For some people, love its physical affection.

972
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:06,400
Speaker 3: For some you know, we talk about all the love languages.

973
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:08,320
Speaker 3: So for someone else, love is taking out the trash

974
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 3: and never complaining about it. Right, But I think that

975
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 3: it's the lack of a shared definition. That's the old

976
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 3: Bell Hooks quote, right, you know, it's the problem with it.

977
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 3: Would all it would be helpful if we had a

978
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:20,880
Speaker 3: shared definition of love kind of thing. I'm butchering the quote.

979
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:24,360
Speaker 3: But we But it's that's the problems. We don't have

980
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:28,439
Speaker 3: a shared definition. For a narcissistic person, love is very transactional,

981
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:31,839
Speaker 3: and it's very oriented towards supply. It's sort of does

982
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 3: it giveing me a great example, narcissistic person, they go

983
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 3: to work that day and they have a great day

984
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:42,720
Speaker 3: at work. They get the promotion like, let's celebrate whatever.

985
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 3: They You guys get ready each time to go out

986
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 3: to dinner, You go to dinner, you get to the restaurant,

987
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 3: and you know, completely by coincidence, the person, the host, whatever,

988
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 3: theater says, you know what, like we had a reservation,

989
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 3: not show up like this, the fabulous table overlooking the

990
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 3: water came free, like I'd love to give it to you.

991
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 3: Guys are a beautiful couple. Narcissistic persons like come on

992
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 3: in and then you're sitting down and then they're like, hey,

993
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 3: you know what, Like the manager is sending over two

994
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:13,280
Speaker 3: glasses of wine. So the narcissistic person is being treated

995
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:16,319
Speaker 3: like the most special person in the world. And they

996
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:20,320
Speaker 3: turn to their partner like, baby, I love you so much.

997
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 3: They love the night, they love that day, right, they don't.

998
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 3: I'm not convinced that they love all these feelings. I'm special.

999
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 3: I got special table, I got special glass of wine,

1000
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 3: I got the promotion. I love this day. But it

1001
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 3: turns into I love you. And when you're in a

1002
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 3: narcissistic relationship, you hold on one of those nights, and

1003
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 3: then the next day they come to find out the

1004
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 3: promotions not hold getting giving them the raise they want,

1005
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 3: and then they hit some traffic on the way home,

1006
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 3: and then there's a problem comes up, and you're still

1007
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:53,719
Speaker 3: thinking you're still in the glow of I love you

1008
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 3: night with the wine and the table and they come

1009
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:59,439
Speaker 3: home and you're all affectionate, and they're all rumpy and mean,

1010
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 3: like what what do you want? Like what dinner? What

1011
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:03,319
Speaker 3: are you talking about? Like I have to work late,

1012
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 3: and and you feel like what the hell? Just how

1013
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 3: do we go from I love you to this? Because

1014
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 3: they loved the night, they're not loving this day. So

1015
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 3: it feels like they don't love. You know, they don't

1016
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:17,320
Speaker 3: love what's happening. They don't. They're not They're not getting

1017
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 3: enough supply. So they tell people that their definition of

1018
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:27,280
Speaker 3: love is supply how they feel. It's not really about

1019
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:30,399
Speaker 3: the other person. It's the love for them is does

1020
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 3: this look good? Does it feel good to me? Versus

1021
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 3: this sense of I'm in something with you? This is shared,

1022
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:41,759
Speaker 3: I got your back, And that's a very different definition,

1023
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 3: and I think people will make. The big mistake people

1024
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:47,640
Speaker 3: make in narcissistic relationships is they have that argument you

1025
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:49,319
Speaker 3: said you love me, you don't love me. And I

1026
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 3: always tell people, don't tell the narcissistic person they don't

1027
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 3: love you. They think they do. You just have different definitions.

1028
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 2: Wow that I'm gonna taking that with me. So I'm

1029
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 2: going to go push play and tell people listen, to

1030
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:08,239
Speaker 2: to my friend and out of the marriage. Listen to

1031
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 2: this part, because yes, that makes so much sense. And

1032
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 2: I never even thought about all of us not having

1033
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:16,600
Speaker 2: this shared definition of love because we all talk about

1034
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 2: love as a society so much, so it kind of

1035
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 2: feels like we do. But we really have to talk

1036
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:24,719
Speaker 2: through what love looks like to you, what healthy love

1037
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 2: is to you, what healthy love is period.

1038
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 3: Wow.

1039
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:30,799
Speaker 2: Okay, well, I know I have to get going with

1040
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:35,359
Speaker 2: you soon, but real quick. You talked about like, uh,

1041
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 2: you know, this narcissism coming up as a definite, you know,

1042
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 2: coming up more and more through our politics, through social media.

1043
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 2: Like is it possible that narcissism I don't know if

1044
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:49,920
Speaker 2: it's always inherent or if it can grow. Can it

1045
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:53,800
Speaker 2: be growing and getting more prominent because of social media

1046
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 2: because of the way our governments the world over are

1047
00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 2: going or no.

1048
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 3: You know, me and a colleague of person in the

1049
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:03,320
Speaker 3: field who does this work I could colleague friend, doctor

1050
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 3: Keith Campbell at University of Georgia. He says that he

1051
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:10,239
Speaker 3: actually doesn't think that the number of grandiose narcissists is

1052
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 3: on the rise. He's like, there's always been grandiose narcissist.

1053
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 3: He's social media just gives them a megaphone. Him and

1054
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:17,759
Speaker 3: I agree that the number that there's a form of

1055
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:21,399
Speaker 3: narcissism that's on the rise, and that's vulnerable narcissism. These

1056
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:33,160
Speaker 3: are the more resentful, socially anxious, more socially isolated, rootingly angry, passive, aggressive, victimized,

1057
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 3: sullen narcissists. Here's where social media has given them a

1058
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:41,479
Speaker 3: kind of a scary megaphone. Whereas these folks often didn't

1059
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:43,399
Speaker 3: always like they kind of be grumpy in their lives.

1060
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 3: Maybe they'd be the grumpy drunk at the corner bar.

1061
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:48,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, the cantankerous old guy on your street.

1062
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:50,399
Speaker 3: This is no These are no longer cantankris old guys.

1063
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 3: These are cantankeris young people. These are people who are

1064
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:56,759
Speaker 3: They're angry and they're brooding, and that seems to be

1065
00:51:57,000 --> 00:52:00,319
Speaker 3: proliferating a bit more, I don't, I mean, and it's

1066
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:02,919
Speaker 3: sort of where at least that that voice wasn't there

1067
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 3: as much before. I think that it's just what we're

1068
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:09,040
Speaker 3: I think the narcissistic people are always there. We're seeing

1069
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 3: them because once upon a time, how were they going

1070
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:12,399
Speaker 3: to get all this attention, like I wouldn't have known

1071
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:14,759
Speaker 3: there was a random narcissist in Kansas. I don't live

1072
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:17,759
Speaker 3: in Kansas. So now that narcissist Kansas canna make a

1073
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:20,440
Speaker 3: lot of noise on the Internet and on social media.

1074
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:24,279
Speaker 3: And so I think these tools are uniquely suited to

1075
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 3: the two narcissistic people. I really really think that they are.

1076
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:32,239
Speaker 3: But I think that it's a I think that what's

1077
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:35,400
Speaker 3: also happening is we're rewarding narcissism. But let learn, let

1078
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:39,319
Speaker 3: me put it to you this way. I I am

1079
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 3: someone like you. Know again, you and I are both

1080
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:43,960
Speaker 3: in the public guye right, And I know damn well.

1081
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:47,360
Speaker 3: If I was more aggressive, if I was more assertive,

1082
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:50,240
Speaker 3: if I was more entitled, if I was more demanding,

1083
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:53,920
Speaker 3: my career would probably be bigger. And the idea of

1084
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 3: doing that makes me sick. It really does make me

1085
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 3: physiologically ill. Like people are like, no, do this, and

1086
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 3: it's okay if you sort of that person under the bus,

1087
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:03,000
Speaker 3: I'm like, I gotta sleep. I can't do it. And

1088
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:04,920
Speaker 3: there's more than a couple of times in my career

1089
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 3: where if I could have done something that I think

1090
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,279
Speaker 3: would have disadvantaged someone I care about. And I'm not

1091
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:12,359
Speaker 3: saying I'm just some kind of damn martyr. I'm not.

1092
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 3: It's just I know what I can tolerate. And there

1093
00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:16,640
Speaker 3: are times, you know, I mean, sure we all do

1094
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 3: our things, but I'm like I couldn't, but I see

1095
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:23,239
Speaker 3: people who can't, like their career is on fire, and

1096
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:25,440
Speaker 3: so it is. I mean, there's certain you know, does

1097
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:28,759
Speaker 3: that make sense? I think that this idea that now

1098
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 3: everyone's becoming narcissistic to be on social media, people's personalities

1099
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:35,799
Speaker 3: don't change like that a person might say, may a

1100
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:38,480
Speaker 3: person may do weird things like keep posting their breakfast,

1101
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:41,279
Speaker 3: but it actually just might be this sweet thing, Like

1102
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:44,400
Speaker 3: it's like posting a muffin. Like before we tell this

1103
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:47,319
Speaker 3: person they're narcissistic, like, talk to them. Maybe they just

1104
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:50,279
Speaker 3: like blueberry muffins. Yeah, so you see what I'm saying.

1105
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:53,759
Speaker 3: So I think we're so quick to think like everyone's narcissistic.

1106
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 3: But I think that you're not going to turn a person.

1107
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:59,640
Speaker 3: Now here's where it's gonna get funky. Though. So it

1108
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:02,880
Speaker 3: is now twenty twenty four and what Facebook and all

1109
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:05,200
Speaker 3: that nonsense came out with two thousand and six seven

1110
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:08,439
Speaker 3: eight around there. I don't remember Facebook began, so we're

1111
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:11,400
Speaker 3: almost staying twenty years. So we're about to see the

1112
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:14,920
Speaker 3: first cohort of kids that were born into a social

1113
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:18,279
Speaker 3: media world and are about to hit adulthood. Folks, hold

1114
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:21,480
Speaker 3: on to your hats because this group of kids, we

1115
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:23,319
Speaker 3: just don't know. It's the first time we're ever going

1116
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:25,759
Speaker 3: to see from the day they were born, there were

1117
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:27,759
Speaker 3: lives that were shaped on how they would be shown

1118
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:29,640
Speaker 3: in media. Like I have kids, but they were born

1119
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 3: when there was no social media, so there was in fact,

1120
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:34,360
Speaker 3: only blackberries were in fact, nope, there was no cell phones.

1121
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:35,759
Speaker 3: In fact, I had to get like I had to

1122
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:37,799
Speaker 3: get like a cell phone where it was like, you know,

1123
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:40,239
Speaker 3: five hundred dollars a month to like talk for a minute,

1124
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:41,920
Speaker 3: to just tell my husband at the time that I

1125
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:43,239
Speaker 3: was going into labor, like it was that. So we

1126
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 3: didn't have any of that, And so I don't have

1127
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 3: a children who didn't grow up at that. But this

1128
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:51,759
Speaker 3: is the first group. So I really think that the

1129
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:54,280
Speaker 3: jury's out on what this data is going to say.

1130
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:57,120
Speaker 3: But I think to somebody who's thirty years old, their

1131
00:54:57,200 --> 00:55:00,200
Speaker 3: personality is not going to become narcissistic because social media.

1132
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:04,600
Speaker 2: Interesting. Yeah, I mean, look, it's you know, I've listened

1133
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:06,399
Speaker 2: to a lot of like what bo Burnham has had

1134
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:08,359
Speaker 2: to say because he was kind of a kid on Vine,

1135
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:11,319
Speaker 2: and I think everything he says is so smart, Like

1136
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:13,600
Speaker 2: I remember, and this is not a direct quote, but

1137
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:16,320
Speaker 2: he said, like, you know, we're asking kids to define

1138
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 2: to the world who they are before they know who

1139
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:20,239
Speaker 2: they are and when they should be developing who that

1140
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:25,480
Speaker 2: is in private, And yeah, I think you know. My

1141
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:27,759
Speaker 2: take on it is social media can be good for

1142
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:29,319
Speaker 2: a lot of things, but can also be very bad

1143
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:32,879
Speaker 2: in a lot of ways. And it's interesting you're talking

1144
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:36,879
Speaker 2: about the career thing, like I wanted to be a journalist, right,

1145
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 2: and then social media happened, like right when I was graduating,

1146
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:43,440
Speaker 2: and it became this necessary thing, like in my contracts,

1147
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 2: like you have to post about your thing. You have

1148
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:48,279
Speaker 2: to And I've always sort of hated it, honestly, Like

1149
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:50,840
Speaker 2: there are parts that I like connecting with people on,

1150
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:52,919
Speaker 2: but I don't like being like here's this interview I did,

1151
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:54,839
Speaker 2: but it was in my contracts. I had to do it.

1152
00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:59,759
Speaker 2: And I've heard is that a good gauge like for

1153
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:02,000
Speaker 2: pe people who are listening I've heard what a good

1154
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:04,360
Speaker 2: gauge is is on are you a narcissist? Is like,

1155
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:06,880
Speaker 2: if you're asking are you a narcissist? If you're examining that,

1156
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:08,440
Speaker 2: then you're probably not. Is that accurate?

1157
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:11,279
Speaker 3: It's actually a pretty good gauge, you know, because I

1158
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 3: think I have to tell you, and it's a gauge

1159
00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:14,799
Speaker 3: more than you think. Like a lot of people who've

1160
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:18,400
Speaker 3: been through narcissistic relationships, especially when they started like learning

1161
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:20,719
Speaker 3: more and sort of putting their back in the relationship

1162
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:23,440
Speaker 3: and saying, hey, I'm a real person in this relationship too,

1163
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:25,759
Speaker 3: and I have some needs and wants, and then they're

1164
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:29,080
Speaker 3: told by the narcissistic person like, oh, you're very narcissistic.

1165
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 3: Look at you so demanding, and literally their demand is

1166
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:35,719
Speaker 3: like could we just have dinner together? Like could you

1167
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 3: come home one night a week? And you're so demanding?

1168
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:41,040
Speaker 3: And so I think a lot of people have been

1169
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 3: told that by narcissistic families, by narcissistic partners and have wondered, well,

1170
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:48,560
Speaker 3: maybe I am asking that and maybe I'm being too

1171
00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:51,640
Speaker 3: asky and you know, needy or something like that. So

1172
00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 3: our demand eer gives. Really what it comes down to,

1173
00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 3: but I think that the if people are willing to

1174
00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:00,279
Speaker 3: sort of inspect that, that's a good time. I do

1175
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:02,239
Speaker 3: think there are some narcissistic people out there who know

1176
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:06,279
Speaker 3: they're narcissistic. I've worked with folks like that clinically, that

1177
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:08,879
Speaker 3: doesn't necessarily mean they make the change or like they'll

1178
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:11,799
Speaker 3: even say like I'm in a whole like I know

1179
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:14,480
Speaker 3: that and I know that gets me into trouble, and

1180
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 3: then I have to really ask. I'm like, do you

1181
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 3: want to change that? And like, well, yeah, Mike, do

1182
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 3: you realize what it means to change? And that's when

1183
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:22,120
Speaker 3: they're like, oh, not so sure.

1184
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 2: I don't actually want to do it right. Well, the

1185
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:27,200
Speaker 2: last question I'll ask, and then I'll let you go.

1186
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:29,200
Speaker 2: But just if people have been listening to this and

1187
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:32,080
Speaker 2: maybe it's opened their eyes a little bit too, that

1188
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:34,880
Speaker 2: maybe they are in what's not a good relationship with

1189
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:37,640
Speaker 2: a romantic partner, a friend, you know, even in a

1190
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:42,480
Speaker 2: work situation or a family situation. What are some tips

1191
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:44,240
Speaker 2: that you might give them on like how to first

1192
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 2: broach potentially getting out of this or potentially you know,

1193
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:50,720
Speaker 2: trying to make it healthier. What's some of the first

1194
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:52,320
Speaker 2: things that you say to people if they think they

1195
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:54,440
Speaker 2: might be in a narcissistic relationship.

1196
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:56,720
Speaker 3: I think first you've got to understand what it is,

1197
00:57:56,760 --> 00:57:59,320
Speaker 3: and there's a lot of resource out there to read about,

1198
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:02,520
Speaker 3: to listen to and just learn what it is. The

1199
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:05,640
Speaker 3: second thing is, unfortunately, radical acceptance. Once it's pretty clear

1200
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 3: that this is a pattern, it's not a one off,

1201
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:09,600
Speaker 3: you really have to ask yourself a hard question, say no,

1202
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:11,520
Speaker 3: this is always someone that's been great and then they

1203
00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 3: got laid off from their job and it's been tough,

1204
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:19,000
Speaker 3: but to say there was a very very empathic, consistent, warm, loving,

1205
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:21,240
Speaker 3: patient person. You've got to make sure that it's not

1206
00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:24,160
Speaker 3: linked that changes to behavior that might be more selfish

1207
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:26,800
Speaker 3: or angry or something like that aren't linked to one thing,

1208
00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:30,520
Speaker 3: and maybe have even come back after that, but you're

1209
00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:33,200
Speaker 3: clear on what these patterns are. The next piece then

1210
00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:36,680
Speaker 3: is the radical acceptance. Narcissism doesn't really change. It doesn't

1211
00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:39,560
Speaker 3: so anything you're doing in this relationship is based on

1212
00:58:39,640 --> 00:58:42,080
Speaker 3: this idea that it's not really going to change. So

1213
00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:44,960
Speaker 3: it's never going to be a relationship that's deep, that's

1214
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:48,680
Speaker 3: got close intimacy, that where there's a lot of emotional attunement,

1215
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:50,880
Speaker 3: or availability, and there's a lot of grief that comes

1216
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:52,880
Speaker 3: around that, and you've got to hold on. You've got

1217
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:56,160
Speaker 3: to let that process unfold because it otherwise you might

1218
00:58:56,160 --> 00:58:57,880
Speaker 3: go running back. I don't want to hear that. La

1219
00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:01,160
Speaker 3: la la la. This isn't happening. And then it's about

1220
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:03,520
Speaker 3: you have to make decisions. Not everyone, Lauren, can leave

1221
00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 3: these relationships. Some people they have minor children, they don't

1222
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:13,480
Speaker 3: have the money or the supports, or there's duty, obligation, religion, culture.

1223
00:59:13,680 --> 00:59:16,439
Speaker 3: There's many, many reasons people say. Sometimes people stay because

1224
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:18,720
Speaker 3: they've got hope. That's a tricky reason because it's never

1225
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:21,400
Speaker 3: going to get better. Or people stay because they're like,

1226
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:24,000
Speaker 3: even though this isn't great, I just want to be

1227
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:26,160
Speaker 3: part of a family. That's fine. And I always tell

1228
00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:29,120
Speaker 3: people you need to make a choice for you. Nobody

1229
00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:31,000
Speaker 3: can tell you what to do, but if you're going

1230
00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:33,040
Speaker 3: to do it, it better be eyes wide open. And

1231
00:59:33,080 --> 00:59:35,920
Speaker 3: that means if you stay, it means this person is

1232
00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:38,000
Speaker 3: still going to be this way. So don't engage as much,

1233
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:42,240
Speaker 3: you know, disengage, build out your other supports, create other

1234
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:45,439
Speaker 3: meaningful activities in your life. It ain't happening here. If

1235
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:49,360
Speaker 3: you leave, be prepared for post separation abuse, smear campaigns

1236
00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:51,760
Speaker 3: and other forms of like you don't get to walk

1237
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:55,360
Speaker 3: away sort of you know, sort of unscathed. So there's

1238
00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:58,080
Speaker 3: difficulties all around, and some people decide to stay for

1239
00:59:58,120 --> 00:59:59,760
Speaker 3: a while and say, now that I see this for

1240
00:59:59,800 --> 01:00:01,720
Speaker 3: what it is. I tried for a year, it's not working,

1241
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:03,960
Speaker 3: and then they decide to go. But I think it's

1242
01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:07,080
Speaker 3: in it. I think if you can, accessing therapy can

1243
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:09,520
Speaker 3: also make a big difference, because this can really be

1244
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:12,280
Speaker 3: experienced as a massive loss the dream you had of

1245
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:15,080
Speaker 3: a happy marriage, or your kid's all growing up with

1246
01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:18,520
Speaker 3: two parents in a home, or you know, having a

1247
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:21,400
Speaker 3: close relationship with parents or something like that. When those

1248
01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:25,440
Speaker 3: hopes go, it's very, very, very painful. And so how

1249
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:27,600
Speaker 3: having someone to help you walk through that all of

1250
01:00:27,640 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 3: this can make a difference. And understanding that there's going

1251
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:32,880
Speaker 3: to be good days and bad and that every sometimes

1252
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:35,280
Speaker 3: you might get sucked back into these relationships and doesn't

1253
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:38,400
Speaker 3: mean you've failed. I mean, in many ways, that connected

1254
01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:41,520
Speaker 3: part of you is still there and it's working, and

1255
01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:44,360
Speaker 3: sometimes it's not always your best friend. But better that

1256
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:47,720
Speaker 3: you get to retain your empathy and compassion, then you

1257
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:50,840
Speaker 3: feel like you've lost it because of this relationship.

1258
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:53,920
Speaker 2: So perfectly put Doctor Rominie, thank you so much. And

1259
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:58,200
Speaker 2: of course, your book, it's not you, Identifying and Healing

1260
01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:01,000
Speaker 2: from Narcissistic People, a New York Times bestseller is out

1261
01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:03,640
Speaker 2: there and available, and tell us about your new project

1262
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:04,600
Speaker 2: on fireside.

1263
01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:06,680
Speaker 3: Yeah. So we have a new thing called the Doctor

1264
01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:09,520
Speaker 3: Romedey Network, which feels great deals, but it's really cool.

1265
01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:12,360
Speaker 3: It's great because it's allowing us to do along me

1266
01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:14,160
Speaker 3: to do something I've always wanted to do, which is

1267
01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:17,480
Speaker 3: be interactive. And people who are members of this network

1268
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:20,440
Speaker 3: will have the opportunity to come on on if you

1269
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:23,360
Speaker 3: will virtual stage and ask me questions and we can

1270
01:01:23,400 --> 01:01:25,800
Speaker 3: explore them. And the great part is the community is

1271
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:28,360
Speaker 3: weighing into so it's slowly, but surely you're going to become,

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01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:31,760
Speaker 3: we hope, like the world's largest virtual support group for

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01:01:31,920 --> 01:01:35,240
Speaker 3: people with who are going through toxic relationships. And I

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01:01:35,280 --> 01:01:37,200
Speaker 3: have to say just I see the comments and the

1275
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:40,680
Speaker 3: comments are so supportive that I see how much again,

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01:01:40,960 --> 01:01:43,400
Speaker 3: while I love my part in it, it's amazing to

1277
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:45,920
Speaker 3: watch how much people buy each other. So go to

1278
01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:48,800
Speaker 3: the Doctor Romedy Network sign up and if you really

1279
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:50,720
Speaker 3: care about these issues. You're going to see. You're definitely

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01:01:50,720 --> 01:01:53,000
Speaker 3: not alone, and it's really amazing to get to have

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01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:55,360
Speaker 3: that back and forth and to hear different people's stories,

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01:01:55,640 --> 01:01:57,280
Speaker 3: and there's guests and you get to ask the guest

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01:01:57,360 --> 01:01:59,920
Speaker 3: questions too, so it's really cool. Because we had to

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01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:02,240
Speaker 3: guess who's like an expert on relationships. You can ask

1285
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:04,040
Speaker 3: them a question too, So it's a chance to really

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01:02:04,040 --> 01:02:06,880
Speaker 3: get instead of just watching and listening, you actually get

1287
01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:09,080
Speaker 3: to get in there and ask some questions of your own.

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01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:11,000
Speaker 2: Well, just like you were talking about the importance of

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01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:14,680
Speaker 2: a network and that social structure of support. Doctor Romney,

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01:02:14,680 --> 01:02:17,040
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. I was so looking forward to this.

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01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:18,920
Speaker 2: I know you're so busy. Thanks for fitting us in.

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01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:22,040
Speaker 2: This was such an educational treat, and thank you for

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01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:24,640
Speaker 2: all that you do and for reminding us it's not you.

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01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:27,280
Speaker 3: Thank you so much. By bye next night.

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01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:30,280
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Follow us on Instagram at the most

1296
01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:32,840
Speaker 1: dramatic pod ever and make sure to write us a

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01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:35,520
Speaker 1: review and leave us five stars. I'll talk to you

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01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:36,000
Speaker 1: next time.