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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic and this is next Question

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Speaker 1: today on the show, part two of our behind the

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Speaker 1: scenes look at the making of my memoir Going There Now.

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Speaker 1: Last week I introduced you to my team, Lucy Kalen

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Speaker 1: and Adriana Fasio. If you haven't listened to that episode yet,

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Speaker 1: you might want to check it out first. It will

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Speaker 1: give you some helpful context and some fun stories. It's

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Speaker 1: in your feed now. Meanwhile, this week, Lucy, Adriana and

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Speaker 1: I dive into the tough stuff like writing about my

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Speaker 1: husband Jay's death twenties some odd years later and the

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Speaker 1: downfall of matt Lower. But first we pick up where

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Speaker 1: we left off talking about the structure of the book

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Speaker 1: and why it was so helpful to reevaluate past interviews

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Speaker 1: and moments in my life from our current lens of

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Speaker 1: I think one of the as I said, one of

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Speaker 1: the interesting aspects of writing this was to be able

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Speaker 1: to look through the lens of one um and really

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen and all the things that were happening in

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Speaker 1: the culture, and then reevaluate these moments in time, whether

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Speaker 1: it was Reginald Denny or Matthew Sheppard and you know,

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Speaker 1: and and the kind of pushback. I mean, I was

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Speaker 1: sort of full of some pride along with occasional embarrassment

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Speaker 1: of how I handled interviews like David Duke, I'd like

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Speaker 1: to repeat something you said in nineteen quote, I think

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Speaker 1: the Jewish people have been a blight and they probably

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Speaker 1: deserved to go into the ashbin of history. Well I don't.

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Speaker 1: I don't agree with that quote, and that certain doesn't

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Speaker 1: my feelings. That was only six years ago. Well that doesn't,

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Speaker 1: so what my feelings accurately? A lot of things are

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Speaker 1: taken out of context. And you know, I'm not opposed

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Speaker 1: that's a direct quote, Mr Duke, I'm not. Well, I'm

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Speaker 1: not opposed to Jewish people. That's not my position today.

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Speaker 1: And I think and how I, you know, handled the

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Speaker 1: Governor of Wyoming when we talked about convert in therapy

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Speaker 1: and if in fact it fostered kind of this this

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Speaker 1: feeling of discrimination or intolerance towards gay people was sort

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Speaker 1: of an interesting avenue to go down. And so, um,

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Speaker 1: I think there are things that I would change. But

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Speaker 1: then also there were moments when I was really, you know,

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Speaker 1: filled with pride that I had accomplished something and that

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Speaker 1: I had communicated something, even bigger than the event I

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Speaker 1: was covering. Well, I think something that we found so

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Speaker 1: interesting to talk about in the book, of Course, was that,

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Speaker 1: you know, for instance, at the time of the David

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Speaker 1: Duke interview, you were, you know, on fire as the

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Speaker 1: most beloved, you know, person on television. Was really quite

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Speaker 1: early in my career. I mean it was like early

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Speaker 1: in the Today Show. I think I had only been

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Speaker 1: there a year. People were bonkers for you, and you were,

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Speaker 1: you know, on the road to America's Sweetheart, dum and

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Speaker 1: I remember um and we've talked about it a lot.

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Speaker 1: You know, you really had to wrestle, although I'm not

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Speaker 1: wrestled too hard with the fact that, you know, I

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Speaker 1: might have an amazing smile and i might be america Sweetheart,

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Speaker 1: but I'm going to tell some really hard stories and

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Speaker 1: I'm going to go hard when I have to. And

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Speaker 1: that decision that you made that I think, to be honest,

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Speaker 1: is a hard decision for a lot of women on

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Speaker 1: television to make, and not only on television, but I

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Speaker 1: think women still struggle with these two sides of their personalities,

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Speaker 1: wanting to be liked and wanting to be popular in

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Speaker 1: the workplace, whatever work they've chosen and also being able

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Speaker 1: to make hard decisions and you know, tell people the

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Speaker 1: truth without being labeled a bit. And I think that

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Speaker 1: one of the themes throughout this book is sort of

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Speaker 1: the Katie Catherine dichotomy and a trying to tell everyone

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Speaker 1: sort of how that plays out in the book, Well,

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Speaker 1: one of the most obvious places that plays out is

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Speaker 1: on your first day on the Today Show, when and

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Speaker 1: early in your career or you went as Katherine news

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Speaker 1: This Is Today with Bryan Gumbel, Katherine and Joel. You

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Speaker 1: were Katherine Kuric covering the Pentagon first day on the

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Speaker 1: Today Show, Katherine Kuric, and you put your hands on

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Speaker 1: your head and you say, I still can't decide whether

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Speaker 1: I'm Katherine or Katie. I still can't decide whether I'm

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Speaker 1: Katie or Katherine, And which is sort of very much

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Speaker 1: a huge theme in the book. Yeah, And whether it's

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Speaker 1: the stories you chose to cover, the way you hand

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Speaker 1: carried yourself, whether you stayed at the Today Show, whether

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Speaker 1: you went to the CBS Evening News. It's all a

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Speaker 1: divide of Katie and Katherine, And am I the cute,

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Speaker 1: perky you girl who does features or am I this

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Speaker 1: hard core serious journalist. And I think at your core

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Speaker 1: you are the hardcore serious journalist, and you just have

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Speaker 1: this packaging. We've talked a lot about packaging that allows

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Speaker 1: itself to sometimes be taken in a different way as

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Speaker 1: this silly goofy, which you are. But you can be both.

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Speaker 1: And I think one of the things I've struggled with

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Speaker 1: professionally my whole life is is this need almost too

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Speaker 1: to categorize people you know, and to not see them holistically.

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Speaker 1: And I think we're all I feel like Pett Midler

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Speaker 1: impeaches I I'm deep. I'm very deep. Remember when she

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Speaker 1: did that TV interview and um, but I do think

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Speaker 1: that that somehow television and we talk about this in

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Speaker 1: the prologue, kind of puts you in a box and

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Speaker 1: shrinks you down and makes makes you kind of telegraph, um,

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Speaker 1: a one dimensional kind of persona. And I think what

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Speaker 1: I always always struggled with is I think, at my heart,

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Speaker 1: I am like a person that cares deeply as Bet

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Speaker 1: did in Beaches, but really cares about kind of getting

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Speaker 1: to the heart of issues and helping people understand them

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Speaker 1: and figuring out them myself and and and hopefully as

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Speaker 1: people see me figuring out things that helps them. But

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Speaker 1: on the other hand, I do have this sort of fun, loving, outgoing,

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Speaker 1: gregarious style personality, and it's really hard for people to

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Speaker 1: understand you can be both right. And I think it

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Speaker 1: was interesting because part of my job on the Today

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Speaker 1: Show was to highlight that kind of uh, my personable

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Speaker 1: side and my fun side and quick witted if I

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Speaker 1: if I could say that side. But it sometimes came

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Speaker 1: at a cost of people thinking, well, she's perky, which

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Speaker 1: I think is a very marginalizing, diminishing word. Um. I

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Speaker 1: always think of Susan Sarandon and Bull Durham when she said,

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Speaker 1: you know, baby ducks are cute and and I the

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Speaker 1: reason I wristled at that word, and the more I bristled,

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Speaker 1: the more like the New York Posts like to call

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Speaker 1: me that um is. I felt like it was really

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Speaker 1: sexist and really um minimizing. And so it was really

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Speaker 1: hard to balance these two things. And we write in

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Speaker 1: the book about when I when I did that David

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Speaker 1: Duke interview, and I, you know, kind of had that

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Speaker 1: velvet hammer thing going that you know, people at home

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Speaker 1: are like, oh my god, Martha, what happened to that

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Speaker 1: nice Katie Currect, you know, and so it was trying

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Speaker 1: to be taken seriously because I am a weirdly serious person,

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Speaker 1: but also making sure people enjoyed watching me. So that

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Speaker 1: was always the balance on the Today Show. And I

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Speaker 1: think when I went to the CBS Evening News that

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Speaker 1: really did create problems for me. Some of it was

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Speaker 1: just old fashioned, you know, run of the mill sexism

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Speaker 1: because I was a morning show person and how many

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Speaker 1: men have been morning show was a morning show person

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Speaker 1: is l and John Chancellor was a morning show guy,

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Speaker 1: and Charlie Rose and um, you know. But I do

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Speaker 1: think it just getting back to the whole packaging and

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Speaker 1: the whole idea of images being so important. The fact

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Speaker 1: that I am short and you know, cute, I guess

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Speaker 1: you'd call me and vivacious. Um that that it It

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Speaker 1: put me in that box, and didn't that box couldn't

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Speaker 1: expand to say, well, she has a you know, a

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Speaker 1: pretty keen intellect as well. But when I went to

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Speaker 1: the CBS Evening News, I think you know, there were

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Speaker 1: that was kind of amplified, right, and people were like, oh,

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Speaker 1: she's not she's not a real journalist, you know, she's

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Speaker 1: a morning host. That's so funny because if you look

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Speaker 1: at your record at the Today Show, everyone who you

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Speaker 1: had interviewed Yasser arafat all of the presidential candidates. You

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Speaker 1: had so many hard interviews under your belt. And in fact,

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Speaker 1: I think I said at the time, you know, I've

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Speaker 1: I've done more hard hitting interviews than any of the

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Speaker 1: Evening News dudes combined. I mean, I don't know if

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Speaker 1: that's totally true, but but I had done just as many.

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Speaker 1: I mean I didn't tally them up, but I think

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Speaker 1: I had. And so, um, you know, that was a

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Speaker 1: that was a really interesting experience for me. Um interesting

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Speaker 1: slash horrible, uh, which you can read all about of

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Speaker 1: going to the CBS Evening News, which a friend of

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Speaker 1: mine recently asked after she read the book, She said,

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Speaker 1: do you regret it? And I don't really even know

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Speaker 1: the answer to that question. Do I regret it? I

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Speaker 1: try to live without regrets. But if I knew then

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Speaker 1: what I know now, what I have made the move

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Speaker 1: probably not well the way I think of you thinking

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Speaker 1: of it, which is probably me projecting, but it's just

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Speaker 1: someone had to be the first, and you were the first,

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Speaker 1: and it sucks to be the first, and thank god

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Speaker 1: you did it. And I think we're saying that at

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Speaker 1: the end of the book. I hope you made it

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Speaker 1: easier for Nora O'Donnell and all the other women to come.

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Speaker 1: But it just sucks to be the first. I just

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Speaker 1: and I think I was not naive about it, you know.

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Speaker 1: I think because I had been so successful on the

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Speaker 1: Today's Show. I think that I thought that that this

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Speaker 1: blatant sexism, pervasive sexism, had hadn't evaporated, but had had

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Speaker 1: what would be the word, you guys have kind of

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Speaker 1: waned waned, thank you, Lucy, and and and and and

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Speaker 1: the fact of the matter was it was two thousand

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Speaker 1: six and I was like, oh, come on, you know,

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Speaker 1: people think women can do anything. And it was a

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Speaker 1: really hard lesson in what a firm grass sexism can

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Speaker 1: continues to have on our society. And I think I

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Speaker 1: saw that not only with my experience there, but then

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Speaker 1: of course with Hillary Clinton's candidacy, um, and how acceptable

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Speaker 1: it's still that is, Yeah, exactly exactly, And I think

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Speaker 1: it's totally fascinating, really interesting stuff in the book, of course,

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Speaker 1: is you know, you experienced your own, um, really blatant

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Speaker 1: sexism and had a lot of questions about the way

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Speaker 1: these you know, bastions of male journalism operated, and you know,

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Speaker 1: soon enough, only a handful of years later, we'd all

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Speaker 1: find ourselves smack in the middle of me Too. And

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Speaker 1: you know, you you obviously, you know, had a lot

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Speaker 1: of you know, proximity to that. And I know when

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Speaker 1: working on the book, that was a huge thing for

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Speaker 1: you to sort through and figure out, you know how

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Speaker 1: what you wanted and needed to say about it. And

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Speaker 1: I think what's what was um most therapeutic and cathartic

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Speaker 1: about writing this book was um it was was not

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Speaker 1: long after Matt had been fired from The Today Show,

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Speaker 1: and I think, um, you know, I think what we

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Speaker 1: tried to do in the book is really illustrate how

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Speaker 1: I processed this, how I processed everything that was happening

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Speaker 1: in the Me Too movement, but also how someone with

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Speaker 1: whom I had a really nice professional relationship with and

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Speaker 1: cared about, um, sort of how he crossed a line.

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Speaker 1: But also how the environment that existed during you know,

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Speaker 1: the high points of my career us really set the

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Speaker 1: stage for something like this happening because it was uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, so tolerated it and really kind of considered

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Speaker 1: part of the part of the culture, not only in

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Speaker 1: television news, but in all a whole host of professions.

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Speaker 1: You know, I've talked to my friends who are lawyers

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Speaker 1: and who are you know, bankers and worked in finance

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Speaker 1: or and you know, all kinds of careers, fashion, you know,

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Speaker 1: and the kind of behavior that went on that was acceptable. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's just it's just really actually pretty appalling when again

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Speaker 1: you look through it through the lens of of the

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Speaker 1: twenties twenties. Yeah, and you know, it was not only

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Speaker 1: sitting next to Matt and working with for all of

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Speaker 1: those years, but so many guys who were filled by

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Speaker 1: this that you know, you had your brushes with, and

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Speaker 1: it was a huge part of figuring out what you

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Speaker 1: were going to say to sort of you know, you

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Speaker 1: know what you know, what those encounters were like and

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Speaker 1: what in retrospect was going on. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: Less Moon was Jeff Fager. You know, you certainly had

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Speaker 1: some encounters with Charlie Rose. I mean, you know, just

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Speaker 1: so many with Harvey Weinstein, not knowing at all of

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Speaker 1: course the extent of what was going on, but it

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Speaker 1: just being in the world you were in and being

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Speaker 1: who you were there was. I mean, it was all around,

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Speaker 1: you know, and that was i know, a huge um

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Speaker 1: task for you to sort of sort through what the

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Speaker 1: hell was going on. And I think also, you know, generationally,

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Speaker 1: you know, I see a very different perspective from people

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Speaker 1: agrean his age and my daughter's ages and and Sofie's age,

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Speaker 1: you know, where I still have to kind of say

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Speaker 1: when people will say, well, people were throwing themselves at him,

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Speaker 1: or you know she was really you know, she really

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Speaker 1: pursued him, or this that about any of these people

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Speaker 1: who were felled by the me to move. And sometimes

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Speaker 1: I'm like yeah, and then I'm like, wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: and I realize how easy it is to kind of

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Speaker 1: switch and put the onus on women when when really

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Speaker 1: these men are in you know, it is a power dynamic,

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Speaker 1: is about power, but they're in these positions, as I

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Speaker 1: write in the book with as Peter Parker would say,

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Speaker 1: with great power comes great responsibility. And my girls always

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Speaker 1: kind of, you know, set me straight. But it's it's

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Speaker 1: such a different perspective, uh on on sort of male

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Speaker 1: female relationships and the power dynamics in a workplace for

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Speaker 1: young women then women our age. Having said that, I

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Speaker 1: do agree. You know, I talked to Jodi Canter about this,

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Speaker 1: about this idea of believing all women, and as a journalist,

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Speaker 1: I just don't follow that, uh that advice because I

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Speaker 1: think that that our our job is to get to

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Speaker 1: the truth. And I think there are times when the

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Speaker 1: pendulum has swung too much, and you know that with

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Speaker 1: one tweet, somebody's career can be can be destroyed. And

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Speaker 1: you know, it's really really really important that that that

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Speaker 1: these stories are covered with a lot of care and

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Speaker 1: diligence and just to play devil's advocate though and statistically,

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Speaker 1: when you do get to the bottom of the story,

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Speaker 1: though the women are often telling the truth, what is

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Speaker 1: it of women of sexual harassment or assault cases end

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Speaker 1: up being true? Women are telling the truth, right. I

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Speaker 1: agree they do have to be properly, but that that's

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Speaker 1: a good you know, see here you go and exhibit a.

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Speaker 1: But Lucy, I mean I think you and I kind

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Speaker 1: of had to recalibrate our perspective in some ways as

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Speaker 1: as two women, uh you know, in their early sixties,

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Speaker 1: you know, trying to kind of um, you know, change

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Speaker 1: our perspective because I think we had become in some

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Speaker 1: weird ways accustomed to what was deemed acceptable. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I was at GQ magazine UM for nineteen years and

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Speaker 1: I was very, very very much in the minority as

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Speaker 1: a woman. And you know, it was the nineties, It

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Speaker 1: was the odds. I started in the in the late eighties,

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Speaker 1: and it was you know, it was a pretty It

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Speaker 1: was you know, fabulous guys who are great friends to

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Speaker 1: this of mine to this day, really smart, really amazing,

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Speaker 1: great mentors. But there was a frat house aspect and

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Speaker 1: they're the the you know, the humor was body and

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Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot that you sort of took

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Speaker 1: as a woman if you're like the only one at

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Speaker 1: the conference table who like, there was a lot of

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Speaker 1: ribbing and things like that. And I think one of

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Speaker 1: the things that was tricky for me is that, like

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think, and I think you do too,

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Speaker 1: could fair amount of pride in having you know, survived

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Speaker 1: those years in style. I mean, I and this is

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Speaker 1: something I have to be very careful about, is like,

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Speaker 1: you know, you don't want to in any way undercut

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Speaker 1: the really important work that's being done now by you know,

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Speaker 1: women and four women for a more equitable workplace. But

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Speaker 1: there is that kind of like you know, old school

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Speaker 1: thing of you know where when you're not When you

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Speaker 1: and I came along, it was like, you know, good

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Speaker 1: on us for like finding a way and kind of

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Speaker 1: getting through a really tricky time by our wits. Um.

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Speaker 1: So I mean, it's just a very different workplace for

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Speaker 1: women today. Yeah, and I I mean, good on us

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Speaker 1: in some ways, but bad on us for maybe not me,

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Speaker 1: I'm speaking about myself, maybe not speaking out in certain

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Speaker 1: situations because you know, it was a question of survival

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Speaker 1: in some cases. I remember one of my UH one

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Speaker 1: former anchor called low level employee of a very disgusting word,

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Speaker 1: and I didn't even know what it meant. That's how

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Speaker 1: how sort of shielded I guess I was. But when

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Speaker 1: I realized it was, you know, he was using a

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Speaker 1: part of the female anatomy to describe her and saying

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Speaker 1: it in front of other people, I said, you go

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Speaker 1: to his office and tell him to please not call

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Speaker 1: you that. I mean part of me, I think I

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Speaker 1: wanted her to stand up for herself, and maybe part

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Speaker 1: of me was afraid of backlash from him if I

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Speaker 1: had been the one to bring it up, and she did,

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Speaker 1: and I don't think he ever talked to her again.

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Speaker 1: And uh, you know, so there were we don't write

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Speaker 1: about that, but there were incidents like that that that

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Speaker 1: we're really unacceptable that I think maybe I shouldn't have

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Speaker 1: put up with as much as I did. That said though,

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Speaker 1: I mean that what you did at CNN, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: way back in the day when you weren't Katie Kuric yet.

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Speaker 1: I mean that was brave. And people, young women who

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Speaker 1: wanted to keep their jobs in places like CNN and

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Speaker 1: you know, magazines and whatnot didn't do that. It's a

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Speaker 1: great story. Yeah, and I think people should read the

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Speaker 1: book because I can't remember the memo I wrote, but

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Speaker 1: it was, you know, pretty direct after someone had made

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Speaker 1: an inappropriate comment about me, someone in a in a

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Speaker 1: very high position. And um, you know, I credit my

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Speaker 1: my mentor Don Farmer for really encouraging me to do that.

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Speaker 1: So I I really appreciate that Don kind of um

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Speaker 1: you know, set me on a path that said you

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Speaker 1: don't have to put up with this, which was really,

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Speaker 1: I mean incredible when you think about how how important

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Speaker 1: that that moment was for me and and uh made

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Speaker 1: me realize that I could stand up for myself even

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Speaker 1: though I ultimately do believe it cost me. Yeah, it's true,

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Speaker 1: you know, in the short term, Yeah, in the short term,

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Speaker 1: But it was probably the best thing that ever happened

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Speaker 1: to me. I was just gonna say, in kudos to

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Speaker 1: Don for being a man to use a male ally

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Speaker 1: before we ever knew exactly right exactly. We'll be right

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Speaker 1: back with more behind the scenes moments from my memoir

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Speaker 1: that's right after this. Meanwhile, we really wrote the bulk

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Speaker 1: of this book in the middle of a pandemic and

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Speaker 1: in the middle of massive social upheaval right in the country.

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Speaker 1: Um and and not to mention, you know, the biggest

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Speaker 1: political story of the last fifty years, I would venture

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Speaker 1: to say at least one of the most transformative political stories.

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Speaker 1: I eat the president see of Donald J. Trump, and

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Speaker 1: so those things really I think impacted the process in

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Speaker 1: a way I am. I would never say I'm thankful

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Speaker 1: for the pandemic because I would never say that, and

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Speaker 1: I don't feel that way. But it did present us

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Speaker 1: with an opportunity to really focus on the book. Well wait,

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Speaker 1: let me let me tell this from my perspective. A

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Speaker 1: little well, go ahead, so a little miss pushy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I learned I learned from my role model. Um, so

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Speaker 1: we were supposed to come out to the Hampton's to

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Speaker 1: work on the book for a weekend, and because a

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Speaker 1: lot of Katie's archives, as I stated, are in the

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Speaker 1: basement here, and um, we were going to come out

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Speaker 1: for a weekend to quote unquote ride this thing out,

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Speaker 1: that thing being like March. And then John called me

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Speaker 1: the morning that we were leaving for a weekend and

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Speaker 1: said you should pack your bags for a week. And

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Speaker 1: then I didn't leave this establishment until December, right, Indiana

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Speaker 1: became an honorary member of the currect Muelner Monaghan family.

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Speaker 1: And then I would nip in for a week here

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Speaker 1: and that we would just be in our pajamas all day,

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Speaker 1: bent over our laptop. Because also I would like Katie

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Speaker 1: and I are. We like to work a lot, We

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Speaker 1: like being productive. Lucy has a work ethic I have

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Speaker 1: never seen and will never see ever again. It would

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Speaker 1: be literally one in the morning. She is naturally pretor

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Speaker 1: naturally or preter nationally either. Okay, I usually say I

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Speaker 1: usually say pradtor, you say preator, I say predator. Let's

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Speaker 1: call them. But Lucy is predor naturally preter naturally focused.

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Speaker 1: I have never seen someone who can just I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm pretty good at tuning out the world, especially when

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Speaker 1: I'm watching commercials for some weird reason on TV, I'm like,

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Speaker 1: people are like, hey, but Lucy in her lap top,

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Speaker 1: lying here just like in a little nest, a creature

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Speaker 1: creature her like. I don't know why I'm imitating a

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Speaker 1: possum right now, but Lucy is is just the most focused,

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Speaker 1: hard working. It would mean I ever met, Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: would be midnight and Katie and I would actually be

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Speaker 1: begging to go to bed, and Lucy would say, no,

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Speaker 1: we have to keep working. Well, a couple of things

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Speaker 1: on that, um. One is that I have a very

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Speaker 1: very very narrow skill set. I don't know how to

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't like to shop. I don't know

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Speaker 1: how to cook. There's a lot I don't So it's

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Speaker 1: good that I have these skills because I ride them hard.

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Speaker 1: These are my skills and this is what I do. Um.

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Speaker 1: But secondly, just the material is so great and of

399
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Speaker 1: course when I'm working with you, but I love them.

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Speaker 1: I mean, your life is just incredibly interesting. And you know,

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00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,440
Speaker 1: if it were crap material, boring, you probably would have

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00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 1: seen less focus. Meanwhile, you know, all these things were happening.

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Speaker 1: We were having racial reckoning. We're having me too. You know,

404
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Speaker 1: George Floyd was murdered. Black Lives Matter was was really uh,

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Speaker 1: I think reaching the masses in a way it hadn't before,

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Speaker 1: even though I think it had, you know, been around

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Speaker 1: for many years prior, or at least several years prior.

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Speaker 1: And you know that was also fascinating too, because I

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Speaker 1: think it informed and kind of brought into sharper focus

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Speaker 1: many of the things we were writing about and and

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Speaker 1: really gave a new perspective to some of our own

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Speaker 1: implicit biases and our own view of different social situations

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Speaker 1: are different societal issues, I should say, um, And so

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Speaker 1: to me, it made the book much stronger, um that

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Speaker 1: that we that the country was scrappling with all of this,

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Speaker 1: and that we were And I think it comes through

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Speaker 1: the pages of the book, not to mention. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's a whole section on on Ja and his love

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Speaker 1: of the Civil War, and he was particularly enamored by

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Speaker 1: the Confederacy and Robert E. Lee having gone to w

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Speaker 1: L and being a history buff even as a little boy.

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Speaker 1: Wall paper of the presidents and you know that was

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Speaker 1: a really interesting and at times painful exercise and and

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Speaker 1: trying to understand what it was about these moments in

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Speaker 1: history that's so fascinated Jay, and that that he really romanticized.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think there's just really really beautiful, amazing,

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Speaker 1: UM chapters concerning your family, your incredible daughters, your wonderful

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Speaker 1: current husband, and certainly the the tragedy of Jay. It's

429
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 1: really strong stuff. I think that, you know, my hope

430
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: is that writing so honestly about you know, Jay's diagnosis

431
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,680
Speaker 1: at such an early age, and it's still so tragic

432
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 1: to me. Um. I think people who have experienced those

433
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:37,120
Speaker 1: kinds of tragedies will well, will really relate to what

434
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 1: I was going through, and I think a lot of

435
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: the feelings and the things I did in retrospect I

436
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: think will resonate with a lot of people. And that

437
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 1: was really hard to do. I just actually almost finished

438
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 1: with the audiobook of of reading it, and to revisit

439
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 1: those terribly oh my god, I mean and possibly sad

440
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 1: and worrisome and fear fear filled days was really it

441
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: was really hard, but I think it was so UM.

442
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,880
Speaker 1: I think it was some of my best writing because

443
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 1: it was so so close to the bone and to

444
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 1: my very being, and to to be able to write

445
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,439
Speaker 1: about it, which I never would have done until now,

446
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:35,360
Speaker 1: because I always did feel this it was an invasion

447
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 1: of Jay's privacy, but you know, I think it was.

448
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 1: I hope it's it's a tribute to Jay Um, And

449
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 1: I think the whole book is a lot of the

450
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: book is because I think he comes through and I'm

451
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 1: just sorry that I couldn't write about Ellie's wedding and

452
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: the ways that his presence kind of informed so many

453
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 1: things that we did. Um. But but I hope that

454
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 1: people appreciate and you know, sometimes marriages aren't always like

455
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 1: in the very best place once a tragedy like this happens,

456
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 1: and I think that's sorting through that is really hard

457
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: as well. Well, I think another huge, huge piece of it.

458
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 1: I mean, yes, Um, I think there are sadly many

459
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 1: women will who will relate to when something like this

460
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 1: happens to your family and men. But the other thing

461
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: that perhaps they won't relate to, and I think makes

462
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 1: for really extraordinary reading, is you were at the height

463
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 1: of your fame when this news came down, and you know,

464
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: we talked a lot about the juggling is not a

465
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 1: sufficient word, but the juggling of the public and the private,

466
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 1: and the way those aspects of your life would come

467
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 1: crashing together, like you know, learning of your sister's diagnosis,

468
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 1: when you're on the Tonight Show and you're in the

469
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 1: green room and you've just done a great performance, and

470
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: you know, that was one of those horrible And there

471
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: are so many with Jay, just the way the public

472
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 1: and the private, the professional and the personal would just

473
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: come crashing together. And that was an interesting thing to

474
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 1: sort through. I know. Yeah, but come on, any moll, no,

475
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: come on. Then there was of course my current husband

476
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 1: who just popped up. Come here, come over here, moll,

477
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: come on, just for a second. Come on, come sit, sit,

478
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,479
Speaker 1: come on over, come on, John Muller. He loves it,

479
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 1: come on like you know actually, and we were this

480
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 1: is a good spot because we talked about when we met.

481
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 1: He's not really loving me. He thinks I'm a slab

482
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 1: and I am. And I'm sorry anyway, um about when

483
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 1: we met and um and our marriage. I mean, but listen,

484
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 1: I just want to ask you, is it will at

485
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 1: the exterminator from we have to be out of the

486
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 1: house for two hours. Why do we need an exterminator?

487
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: I guess there are bugs? Can can they do it

488
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 1: on Sunday when the audiobook is done and we're gone?

489
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 1: Oh I could? Would that be better? Okay, okay, I'll

490
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 1: just tell it. Actually we can just say we talk

491
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 1: back to the We talked about your first day. This

492
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 1: segment brought to you by Organ. We talked about our

493
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 1: first day, about getting married, about finally finding a partner

494
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 1: that was worthy of me, who's that unfortunately didn't return,

495
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 1: About how you had a health scare and the wedding

496
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 1: almost didn't happen, and we thought you were going to

497
00:31:54,000 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 1: buy the farm and you did remember. Yeah, anyway, you

498
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 1: all need to read the book to learn more about it.

499
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: Thanks for thanks for coming in and really contributing to

500
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: this podcast. Bye. Who doesn't Love a Mulnar cameo will

501
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 1: be right back with more of my behind the memoir

502
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: conversation right after this. Let's talk about some of our

503
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 1: our favorite moments or our favorite part of this experience. Adriana,

504
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 1: what was yours? Oh? Thanks for asking, Catherine um Well,

505
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: so obviously I wanted to be Katie blah blah blah blah.

506
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 1: I always wanted to work in television. Blah blah. We've

507
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 1: all heard it before. She has a million super fans.

508
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 1: I'm just the president of the fan club. TV is

509
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 1: admittedly very different now than it was back then. So

510
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 1: one of my favorite parts to research and relive with

511
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 1: both of you was the booking wars and the crazy

512
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 1: shit they would do to get the get in the

513
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 1: early nineties. It was cut throat to say the least,

514
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 1: and terrifying and amazing, and as an incredibly competitive person,

515
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 1: it would have thrived. And you have to read the book.

516
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 1: Just that era of television, the once magical world of

517
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 1: TV news. It was very fun to relive with the

518
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 1: queen of it. I loved I mean, I love it all,

519
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 1: but I love the early chapters. Um, when you're you know,

520
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 1: not at all famous yet and you're just trying so

521
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 1: hard in the most occasionally bumbling and always charming ways

522
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: to kind of get your piece, and you know, just

523
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 1: you know, get the assignment, get on aired, whatever it takes,

524
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: and it's it's really knowing what is up ahead. It's

525
00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: it's just so entertaining and really fun. Um. But especially

526
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 1: I love those you know, really strategic moments that are

527
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 1: leading to your, um, you know, getting the co anchor

528
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 1: job at the Today Show. It's it's goose bumps for

529
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: me every time. And I know the story really well,

530
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: but it really is goose bumps. It's so kind of

531
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:24,879
Speaker 1: cinematic and you know, just funny and triumphant, and you know,

532
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 1: it's it's just seene scene by scene. It's great. I

533
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: enjoyed really all of it. Uh, it didn't feel like

534
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 1: that sometimes at the time, but um, you know, I

535
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 1: think for someone who becomes a public figure, whatever that means,

536
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 1: that people write about you and they project upon you

537
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 1: and they analyze you, and I think for me it

538
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: just felt so fulfilling to be able to talk about

539
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 1: what it felt like at the time for me personally,

540
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 1: and you know, they were so often I couldn't and

541
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:08,839
Speaker 1: to be able to kind of take it the my

542
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,959
Speaker 1: entire life experience, and of course not my entire because

543
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 1: we had to pick and shoes, but to really kind

544
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: of share that was was so gratifying. And and for me,

545
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 1: I think I really loved learning a little more revisiting

546
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 1: my roots and talking about sort of where I came

547
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 1: from and my father's side of the family and my

548
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 1: mother's side and kind of talking about the fact that

549
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,359
Speaker 1: I discovered my mom was Jewish when I was ten

550
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 1: years old, because it's something I remember so so vividly,

551
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:54,320
Speaker 1: and to me, that's that's such an interesting cultural uh

552
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 1: snapshot in many ways about what it meant to be

553
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 1: Jewish growing up in Virginia and assimilation and maybe my

554
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 1: mom's own issues and um, you know, and and again

555
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 1: it's something that shaped who I became. So just kind

556
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 1: of learning about that and reading about it again and

557
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 1: learning more was really special for me. And I think

558
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 1: something's a gift to my girls. I mean, carry has

559
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 1: done all kinds of research already into our our family

560
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 1: history and and as I I believe, a much better

561
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: writer than I will ever be. But um, you know,

562
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 1: it was it was fun to kind of do that,

563
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 1: uh you know, in her footsteps in a weird way too.

564
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,919
Speaker 1: So so I really enjoyed that. Um but it's really

565
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 1: hard to even isolate one part of the book because

566
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: it was so it was hard, man, it was hard.

567
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: But I just loved writing the whole thing. I loved

568
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 1: being with you two. And I think I've said this

569
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 1: many many times to privately to Lucy and Adriana but

570
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 1: the fact that they never wavered in their interest and

571
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 1: passion and enthusiasm for telling my story. I mean, it's

572
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 1: such a gift because I mean, to me, it's so selfless.

573
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 1: It's not your story, it's my story, but in a way,

574
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 1: it's all of our story. And I'm so grateful because

575
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 1: never did you all say, oh God, I'm so sick

576
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:36,479
Speaker 1: of you, or you probably were, but like, I can't

577
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 1: believe we have to work on this part again, or

578
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 1: who cares, or honestly or and I even behind my back,

579
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 1: I don't think you were saying those things. And you

580
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 1: know that is such, that is so I mean, I

581
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:57,359
Speaker 1: don't even know how to put into words how wonderful

582
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 1: and special that is for me. So I just really

583
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 1: really appreciate you guys. And um you know, there's so

584
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 1: much of both of you in this book. Um and

585
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: and I could never ever have done it without you.

586
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 1: So thank you, we love you, and we're the lucky ones.

587
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 1: Thank you for well the pinnacle to say anything, pinnacles

588
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:35,720
Speaker 1: of my professional life and the beginning of mine. Again,

589
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 1: thank you so much to Lucy Kalin and Adriana Fasio

590
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 1: for joining me on this podcast and for making my

591
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 1: memoir Possible, Speaking of which, then Up Going There is

592
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 1: out now, so I hope you all find time to

593
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,399
Speaker 1: give it a read. And by the way, I still

594
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,320
Speaker 1: have a few stops ahead from my book tour. I

595
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,879
Speaker 1: have some incredible guests. I have Jenn Garner and Lost

596
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 1: Angeles as well as Toronto Burke talking about the Me

597
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:08,400
Speaker 1: Too movement, Leslie Jordan's in San Francisco, Na Garden in Atlanta,

598
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,800
Speaker 1: Kim and Brad Paisley in Nashville, and Chance the Rapper

599
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 1: in Chicago, which I'm really excited about too. All you

600
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 1: have to do is go to ticketmaster dot com slash

601
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: Going There. Next Question with Katie Kurik is a production

602
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 1: of I Heart Media and Katie Currik Media. The executive

603
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 1: producers Army, Katie Curic, and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer

604
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 1: is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements, Adriana Fasio, and

605
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 1: Emily Pinto. The show is edited and mixed by Derrick Clements.

606
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 1: For more information about today's episode, or to sign up

607
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 1: for my morning newsletter, Wake Up Paul, go to Katie

608
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 1: currect dot com. You can also find me at Katie

609
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 1: Currik on Instagram, and all my social media channels. For

610
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,839
Speaker 1: more podcast from I heart Radio, visit the I heart

611
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your

612
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 1: favorite shows. H