Speaker 1: Home the other day said, you know, life is removing
Speaker 1: the blindfold, which I think is excellent. But the question
Speaker 1: is what do you see once the blindfold is removed.
Speaker 1: It's not the error of your ways, it's not you
Speaker 1: are a bad person. What you see is unshakable goodness.
Speaker 1: That's your essential truth. Welcome to the one you feed
Speaker 1: Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the
Speaker 1: thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or
Speaker 1: you are what you think, ring true. And yet for
Speaker 1: many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us.
Speaker 1: We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We
Speaker 1: see what we don't have instead of what we do.
Speaker 1: We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit.
Speaker 1: But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It
Speaker 1: takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life
Speaker 1: worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep
Speaker 1: themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their
Speaker 1: good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this
Speaker 1: episode is Gregory Boyle, an American jesuit priest and the
Speaker 1: founder of Homeboy Industries in Los Angeles, which is the
Speaker 1: largest gang intervention, rehabilitation and re entry program in the world.
Speaker 1: He's received the California Peace Prize and has been inducted
Speaker 1: into the California Hall of Fame. I've hoped that Greg
Speaker 1: Boyle could be on the show for a long time
Speaker 1: because he is the acclaimed author of two incredible books,
Speaker 1: Tattoos on the Heart and Barking to the Choir, and
Speaker 1: now has his third book with our second guest on
Speaker 1: this episode, artist Fabian Deborah, called Forgive Everyone Everything. This
Speaker 1: episode is present it in two parts, so I'll be
Speaker 1: back to introduce Fabian with more detail later in the show. Hi,
Speaker 1: father Greg, Welcome to the show. Thank you, it's great
Speaker 1: to have you on. We're gonna be talking about your
Speaker 1: latest book, which is called Forgive Everyone Everything. But before
Speaker 1: we get into that, let's start like we always do
Speaker 1: with the Parable and the Parable. There's a grandparent talking
Speaker 1: with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are
Speaker 1: two wolves inside of us that are always at battle.
Speaker 1: One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness
Speaker 1: and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf,
Speaker 1: which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And
Speaker 1: the grandchild stops and thinks about it for a second,
Speaker 1: looks up at their grandparents, says, well, which one wins,
Speaker 1: and the grandparents says, the one you feed. So I'd
Speaker 1: like to start off by asking you what that parable
Speaker 1: means to you in your life and in the work
Speaker 1: that you do. Well. Certainly, you know you want to
Speaker 1: have part of your practice to be connected and anchored
Speaker 1: in your true self and loving. But things like hate, tred,
Speaker 1: and greed and all those things are really signs of
Speaker 1: someone not being well. And so it's more about health
Speaker 1: than hate. It's more about healing, you know, not to demonize,
Speaker 1: but we kind of name things incorrectly. So I think
Speaker 1: it's important to be able to get to a place
Speaker 1: where we understand, get underneath things. You know, a lot
Speaker 1: of times people will say the cruelty is the point,
Speaker 1: and I would say, no, the cruelty points to something,
Speaker 1: It indicates something, It indicates that something needs healing. So
Speaker 1: you know, you don't overturn hate, you treat it to
Speaker 1: heal it. On the one hand, I get it, you know,
Speaker 1: because part of your own practice is to stay anchored
Speaker 1: in the fact that kindness is the only non delusional
Speaker 1: response to everything. So you want to be kind, kind, kind,
Speaker 1: and when you are engaged in other delusional things like
Speaker 1: rage and anger and righteousness and all that kind of stuff,
Speaker 1: self righteousness, it's an indicator that one is not as
Speaker 1: healthy as you would hope to be. So it's a
Speaker 1: good parable. I've always like that one. Yeah, it reminds
Speaker 1: me of the phrase from Dr Gabor Mate, who says,
Speaker 1: don't ask why the addiction, ask why the pain. You know,
Speaker 1: if people are acting in a way, or even ourselves,
Speaker 1: if we're acting in a way that appears to be
Speaker 1: you know, any of those sort of greed and hatred
Speaker 1: and anger is to sort of get, as you say,
Speaker 1: what's going on here? What might be causing this to
Speaker 1: come up in me? Yeah, the homies always talk about
Speaker 1: finding the thorn underneath, So if it's about the thorn underneath,
Speaker 1: you're not exactly being toppled by bad behavior. So here
Speaker 1: at home, boy, we don't want to create a community
Speaker 1: of those who are behaving. Well, you know, it's a
Speaker 1: it's a community of beloved belonging, not beloved behaving. And
Speaker 1: so do you want to get underneath and say, well,
Speaker 1: what languages that violence speaking? But we're so in love
Speaker 1: with the narrative that says we're gonna address these things
Speaker 1: head on. But they're not about head on, they're about underneath.
Speaker 1: So I learned that a long time ago when people
Speaker 1: wanted to address gang violence, which is why we mass incarceration.
Speaker 1: But gang violence is about a lethal absence of hope.
Speaker 1: So how about we delivered hope to folks for whom
Speaker 1: hope was foreign. I was wondering if we could start
Speaker 1: off by having you tell a story that's in the
Speaker 1: book about Cisco and George, because I think it really
Speaker 1: speaks to so much of the work that you do
Speaker 1: and how you have to really hold a lot at
Speaker 1: the same time in order to function in the world
Speaker 1: that you're in. Yes, a homie was killed and he
Speaker 1: was there in the middle of the streets with his
Speaker 1: pregnant lady who was rocking him by the time I
Speaker 1: got there, and the cops were trying to pull her
Speaker 1: away from his body. He was killed not far from
Speaker 1: his home, and I remember the next day I had
Speaker 1: to go do a baptism at a probation camp but
Speaker 1: detention facility. His real name was Gabriel, and I had
Speaker 1: to baptize him. And after I baptized him, I had
Speaker 1: to walk him outside and set him down on a
Speaker 1: bench and tell him that his brother had been killed
Speaker 1: the night before. And this kid waited for me, you know,
Speaker 1: to baptize him. And there was something about pouring water
Speaker 1: over his head and anointing his forehead with oil, and
Speaker 1: what is it that you asked the church to do
Speaker 1: it his baptism? And there was something kind of efficacious
Speaker 1: about it at all. I guess I expected him to flail,
Speaker 1: but he didn't. He cried, but he had been already
Speaker 1: softened it into a corner where he was able to
Speaker 1: put depth in its place. Feel the grief, for sure,
Speaker 1: but not have to go to a place of vengeance
Speaker 1: or retaliation. He just let the pain in and then
Speaker 1: he moved on. Yeah. So you talk about hope a lot,
Speaker 1: and I was wondering if we could share a little
Speaker 1: bit about how we stay with hope. You write in
Speaker 1: the book that in the monastic tradition, the highest form
Speaker 1: of sanctity is to live in hell and not lose hope.
Speaker 1: And that sounds deeply admirable. It also sounds deeply difficult.
Speaker 1: How do you hang on to hope in the mid
Speaker 1: stuff when you are or your community is walking through hell. Well,
Speaker 1: the problem comes sometimes when we're really thinking about results
Speaker 1: and success and evidence based outcomes, when our focuses on
Speaker 1: how will things turn out? And that's not a good
Speaker 1: recipe for staying hopeful. So our hope is in our
Speaker 1: being faithful. So you know, Mother Teresa says, we're not
Speaker 1: called to be successful, we're called to be faithful. So
Speaker 1: you want to find the fidelity to a certain approach
Speaker 1: to loving without measure and without regret. And if you
Speaker 1: can find that place, then outcomes don't really matter. It
Speaker 1: doesn't matter how things turn out because you've been anchored
Speaker 1: in a methodology and a tenderness in a way of
Speaker 1: proceeding that you believe in, that you're dedicated to. But
Speaker 1: I think people align their hope with outcomes. This didn't
Speaker 1: turn out well, and now I don't feel hopeful, and
Speaker 1: I think it's a bad business. It's why people burn
Speaker 1: out because it's a them and they try to save,
Speaker 1: rescue and fix and that's a bad business, I think.
Speaker 1: But instead you want to be able to just love
Speaker 1: being loving, and then that's eternally replenishing, and then you're
Speaker 1: always anchored in the present moment, delighting in the person
Speaker 1: in front of you. It's not hard to do, it's
Speaker 1: hard to remember to do it. And that's kind of
Speaker 1: the key in recovery. They say one day at a time,
Speaker 1: and I think that's way too long. It's really one breath.
Speaker 1: With every breath, you delight in your kind and it's
Speaker 1: hard to remember to do that. But once you do it,
Speaker 1: it's where the joy is. That's why you keep coming
Speaker 1: back to it. Yeah, I've heard you talk about being
Speaker 1: addicted to I think you call it once and for allness,
Speaker 1: as if we're going to do one thing or we're
Speaker 1: going to have one outcome and then everything is solved
Speaker 1: and from there on out it's clear sailing. And that's
Speaker 1: not the way any of this really works. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: I think part of it is we think everything is
Speaker 1: once and for all, you know, like in our prayer
Speaker 1: in the morning, that we pray and then we're good
Speaker 1: to go for the day. Then we're surprised that the
Speaker 1: two hours in you're annoyed at everybody you know so
Speaker 1: so much for that, you know, or any decision you
Speaker 1: make is kind of once and for all, and it isn't. Again,
Speaker 1: I always connected to breathing. It's like you cherish with
Speaker 1: every breath. It's exceedingly hard to remember to do it.
Speaker 1: But that's why you call it a practice. You work
Speaker 1: at it. I think that's true about anything. You know.
Speaker 1: People think faith or I'm saved, and I go, no,
Speaker 1: I don't think it works that way. I think, you know,
Speaker 1: you have to somehow nurture it and care for it
Speaker 1: and tend to it and make sure that it's a
Speaker 1: flame that stays bright and alive. Yeah, I'm a recovering
Speaker 1: heroin addict. And you know, if you're going to make
Speaker 1: the movie of my life, there's a scene where I
Speaker 1: made a big decision, right. Okay, that was the moment
Speaker 1: where his whole life pivoted, right, But there were a
Speaker 1: thousand small decisions before that that led me there. And
Speaker 1: there have been thousands and thousands and thousands of little
Speaker 1: decisions since and that have kept me sober. It doesn't
Speaker 1: make a great movie, but that's the reality of how
Speaker 1: we change absolutely. And then it's why recovery is such
Speaker 1: a tentative thing, you know, And I applaud you, and
Speaker 1: I think it's really hard, you know, somehow, that's why
Speaker 1: people stay connected to the meetings, to a sponsor you know,
Speaker 1: and trying to kind of watch people, places and things
Speaker 1: and all the stuff that can kind of in a
Speaker 1: heartbeat bring it down again, and so it's important. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So in your work, I'm certain that you have seen many,
Speaker 1: many people transform their lives. And I don't even wonder
Speaker 1: if I want to use the word get better, but
Speaker 1: let's use the word you used earlier, get healthier. So
Speaker 1: you've seen a lot of that, and then I'm sure
Speaker 1: you've also seen lots and lots of people who were
Speaker 1: offered that opportunity that for whatever reason, we're unable or
Speaker 1: unwilling to take it. I'm curious if you have any
Speaker 1: theories about why some people are able to make these
Speaker 1: sort of big changes and others aren't, because it's been
Speaker 1: a mystery to me my whole time in recovery, Like
Speaker 1: why am I sober but so many people I know
Speaker 1: are dead? And I don't think it's because I'm better, right,
Speaker 1: So there's there's some mysterious stuff going on. I'm curious
Speaker 1: what you've concluded after watching that for years. You know,
Speaker 1: I think the homie the other days said, you know,
Speaker 1: life is removing the blindfold, which I think is excellent.
Speaker 1: But the question is what do you see once the
Speaker 1: blindfold is removed. It's not the error of your ways,
Speaker 1: it's not you are a bad person. What you see
Speaker 1: is unshakable goodness. That's your essential truth, and then you
Speaker 1: become that truth you and have that truth. But blindfolds
Speaker 1: are tricky because I can't force them off. Somebody. Somebody
Speaker 1: has to say, oh, this is a blindfold, and then
Speaker 1: we'll reach back to the knot and untie it. So
Speaker 1: no amount of me wanting that guy to have a
Speaker 1: life will ever be the same as that guy wanting
Speaker 1: to have one. You know, I always say ours is
Speaker 1: a god who waits, and who am I not to wait?
Speaker 1: And in recovery they say it takes what it takes.
Speaker 1: In gang recovery, it's not any different. It's you know,
Speaker 1: it can be whatever, the birth of a son, the
Speaker 1: death of a friend, along stretch in prison. It takes
Speaker 1: what it takes. And you and I both know people
Speaker 1: who you know did twenty rehabs until it took. And
Speaker 1: it had nothing to do with oh I finally landed
Speaker 1: at a good rehab. No, it was when you're ready,
Speaker 1: it'll take. But you have to be ready. So you know,
Speaker 1: we don't force anybody to walk through our doors. But
Speaker 1: once they walk through our doors, you know, it's um
Speaker 1: ticker tape parade and red carpet. But they're the only
Speaker 1: ones who can make that move. And it's interesting, you know,
Speaker 1: because Homeboy is exactly like an a a meeting. There's
Speaker 1: somebody who's twenty years sober, somebody who's twenty minutes ober,
Speaker 1: and somebody who's drunk, but they're there that has the
Speaker 1: feel of it, young and old, and people who are
Speaker 1: at different places of their own growth. The ones that
Speaker 1: are always sort of the most heartbreaking for me are
Speaker 1: the people who, at least in recovery, they come to recovery,
Speaker 1: they make what looks to be a really good effort
Speaker 1: at it, and it takes for a while, but then
Speaker 1: it doesn't. For me, that's always harder to watch than
Speaker 1: somebody who just simply won't even see it in the
Speaker 1: first place. It's like, you felt the goodness, I saw
Speaker 1: you light up, I saw you come alive, And those
Speaker 1: are always the ones that kind of are hard for me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think you're absolutely right, and I think it's excruciating
Speaker 1: because you know, all have moms come in here and
Speaker 1: say my son is smoking math and I need to
Speaker 1: help my So where is he? Oh, he's at home asleep,
Speaker 1: And I go, boy, I know, if you could check
Speaker 1: into a rehab for him, you would have been had
Speaker 1: done it, you know, But it just doesn't work that way.
Speaker 1: It's tough because a lot of it has all sorts
Speaker 1: of multipliers around it, you know. So it's dual diagnosis,
Speaker 1: and it's hard, and it's like they're self medicating and
Speaker 1: they have an underlying something. It's hard to do, but
Speaker 1: I don't know anything better. Been a community that cherishes,
Speaker 1: that's the context. That's the environment in which people can
Speaker 1: be transformed. I have never transformed anybody, but transformation has
Speaker 1: happened here, you know, because there's a kind of the
Speaker 1: contours of the place really exceptional, and they hold people
Speaker 1: and people feel safe and seen and then cherished, and
Speaker 1: there's nothing better. That's how you get to some kind
Speaker 1: of flourishing joy that nobody can take from you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you've said before that in the end, all great spirituality
Speaker 1: is about what to do with our pain? Can you
Speaker 1: elaborate on that a little bit? Well, you know, the
Speaker 1: highest form of spiritual maturity is tenderness, and so it's
Speaker 1: how we can kind of approach our pain, you know,
Speaker 1: and the Buddhists would talk about the source of our
Speaker 1: pain is really clinging. So how do we get to
Speaker 1: a place of freedom, how do we have a light
Speaker 1: grasp on life? Saying Ignatius of Loyola would talk about
Speaker 1: he calls it in different it's really a freedom that
Speaker 1: you know, praise or blame, it's all the same. You know,
Speaker 1: hungry or well fed, same thing, abundance or scarcity, it's
Speaker 1: the same. And so you want to have that equanimity
Speaker 1: where you see that things are the same and you
Speaker 1: don't claim to things turning out the way they do.
Speaker 1: And then then you're loving. You know, you may kind
Speaker 1: of begin with service, and then maybe you become kind
Speaker 1: of other centered, and then maybe you become love centered.
Speaker 1: But the goal is to love being loving. That's where
Speaker 1: the joy is. So you want to arrive at that
Speaker 1: place so that you can somehow really inhabit the truth
Speaker 1: of who you are. And no bullet can pierce that,
Speaker 1: and no four prison walls can keep that out. So
Speaker 1: that's where you want to end up. And so you
Speaker 1: just used a couple of words in close proximity there
Speaker 1: that I think are interesting. One is equanimity, right, which
Speaker 1: is seen as a virtue. Right, you use the word indifference,
Speaker 1: which we could say is part of the problem. I
Speaker 1: know you were talking about a particular type of indifference.
Speaker 1: The difference is kind of a spiritual concept, which mainly
Speaker 1: is about freedom. It doesn't mean you don't care about somebody. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And so my question is how do you have that
Speaker 1: deep love and also maintain some sort of equanimity. Is
Speaker 1: it that you learn to love without becoming attached. And
Speaker 1: I'm not speaking about romantic relationships here. I'm more speaking
Speaker 1: about the people that you work with that become close
Speaker 1: to your heart. I just think there's something about having
Speaker 1: a light grasp on things and in every aspect of
Speaker 1: your life, you know, in terms of as I said
Speaker 1: earlier about outcomes and how do things turn out? And
Speaker 1: people burn out not because they're hyper compassionate. It's because
Speaker 1: they've allowed it to become about them, so they go
Speaker 1: to the margins to make a difference rather than go
Speaker 1: to the margins to be made different. And that's why
Speaker 1: people burn out. But we have this notion of compassion
Speaker 1: fatigue and oh my gosh, you us are so giving
Speaker 1: and you're so loving and you're so compassionate. Well, I go, no,
Speaker 1: you've allowed it to become about you. It can't be
Speaker 1: about you. But if you go to the margins to
Speaker 1: receive people and to allow your heart to be altered
Speaker 1: and to be reached by people at the margins, the widow, orphan,
Speaker 1: and stranger. If you go to the margins to be
Speaker 1: impacted by those folks, then it's about us. It's not
Speaker 1: about you anymore. That's the goal services the hallway. But
Speaker 1: kinship is the ballroom. That's where we've had it, a
Speaker 1: place of connection where there is no us in them,
Speaker 1: and you obliterate once and for all the illusion those separation,
Speaker 1: that there's distance between us. We want to bridge the distance.
Speaker 1: I love what you just said. Their services the hallway.
Speaker 1: Kinship is the ballroom for me, I would say, that's
Speaker 1: God's dream come true. How do you get to the
Speaker 1: ballroom where we're so united? Say more about kinship. That's
Speaker 1: a word that shows up a lot in your writing
Speaker 1: for people who that's a term that they don't really
Speaker 1: fully understand. Talk about what it means to you and
Speaker 1: why you think it's so important. Well, Jesus would say
Speaker 1: that you maybe one as the hope, and it's about
Speaker 1: our union with each other. You know, in faith terms,
Speaker 1: it's not about God and hoping that you'll praise God.
Speaker 1: You know, the hope, the dream is that you'd be one.
Speaker 1: So kinschip is like the Kingdom of God, but kinchip
Speaker 1: is where we're kin. It's funny the early Christians used
Speaker 1: to greet each other with a big, old, fat, wet
Speaker 1: kiss on the lips, and I'm not recommending it, but
Speaker 1: I'm just saying that, you know, that's what they did,
Speaker 1: and the reason they did it was very intentional that
Speaker 1: they kissed each other on the lips, because you only
Speaker 1: did that with your blood relatives. It was a way
Speaker 1: of saying, we're kin. And it's kind of a beautiful
Speaker 1: image because that's the goal. The goal is not to
Speaker 1: get to heaven. The goal is to create a community
Speaker 1: of beloved belonging and to imagine a circle of compassion
Speaker 1: and then imagine nobody's standing outside the circle. That's what
Speaker 1: kinship is about. No daylight separating us. It's been a
Speaker 1: long time that you've been in this work, so you
Speaker 1: may just say, like I can't remember that far back,
Speaker 1: but you know, one of the complaints is that privileged
Speaker 1: white people step into spaces, and the more modern term is,
Speaker 1: you know, you come in as a white savior. Right.
Speaker 1: I'm curious whether that was sort of the way you
Speaker 1: entered this space and very quickly got it knocked out
Speaker 1: of you, or were you wise enough to come in
Speaker 1: realizing that wasn't what it was about in the first place.
Speaker 1: You know what the home you had a dream about
Speaker 1: a darkened room, and I had a flashlight and I
Speaker 1: aimed the flashlight the beam of light the light switch,
Speaker 1: and he went and he turned the light switch on
Speaker 1: and the room was flooded with light. And he's sobbing
Speaker 1: as he's telling me this story, and he said the
Speaker 1: lights better than the darkness, like he didn't know that
Speaker 1: to be the case. But I heard that dream and
Speaker 1: I said, Okay, I can't turn light switches on for people.
Speaker 1: I need to be content with the fact that I
Speaker 1: own a flashlight and I know where to aim it,
Speaker 1: and that's it, period, you know. So that changed my life.
Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever had a moment like that
Speaker 1: in my whole life, where all of a sudden I went, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: I will totally change course right now. I don't think
Speaker 1: it was about savior so much. It's not how it works.
Speaker 1: You can't turn light switches on for people in a
Speaker 1: darkened room. You can utilize your flashlight, but only they
Speaker 1: can do that. So it was very liberating, and I've
Speaker 1: never been close to burnout since that Homie told me
Speaker 1: that dream. The problem is, you know, our narrative, of course,
Speaker 1: is not about privilege. It's about character. You know, like
Speaker 1: I grew up in l A and I never joined
Speaker 1: a gang. Well, it's absurd. There was no chance I
Speaker 1: would join a gang, not because of moral superiority. So
Speaker 1: that narrative is, goofball, you want to go. I want
Speaker 1: all these lotteries, parent lottery, sibling lottery, zip code lottery,
Speaker 1: educational lottery. Yeah. Yeah, there's no comparison. So that's important
Speaker 1: to acknowledge privilege. You know, kind of a phenomenon probably
Speaker 1: in the last five years, where I go to university campuses,
Speaker 1: especially Catholic universities, and there's a kind of a privilege paralysis,
Speaker 1: whereas fifteen years ago, you know, people were set on
Speaker 1: fire and they were going, oh my god, I want
Speaker 1: to make a contribution in the world. Then it became
Speaker 1: kind of like, who am I to go to the margins?
Speaker 1: And you don't go to the margins to save anybody
Speaker 1: or fix or rescue. It's important if you're privileged to
Speaker 1: go to the margins to have your heart altered. So
Speaker 1: that's important. I think, you know, paralysis should be unacceptable.
Speaker 1: I agree, And I have seen a similar thing well,
Speaker 1: exactly what you said. People who I think are well
Speaker 1: intentioned become afraid to step into a space because of
Speaker 1: the way that this privileged discussion has happened. I heard
Speaker 1: you say once somebody was asking you about, you know,
Speaker 1: did you feel like you were qualified as a white
Speaker 1: man and a non gang member and all that to
Speaker 1: kind of show up and quote unquote speak to these people,
Speaker 1: and and you said very I'm paraphrasing, but very eloquently,
Speaker 1: something along the lines of I didn't show up to speak,
Speaker 1: I showed up to listen. And anybody can do that,
Speaker 1: and that really is a powerful way of orienting towards things. Well.
Speaker 1: I remember one time I was with a group of
Speaker 1: university students. They were here doing an immersion thing, and
Speaker 1: then I was called in to kind of answer questions
Speaker 1: and stuff, and the young woman with a kind of
Speaker 1: a tone said what makes you qualified to do this work?
Speaker 1: And I didn't know what to say, but then I
Speaker 1: just reached down to my wrist and I kind of
Speaker 1: put my fingers on my pulse, and I said, a pulse,
Speaker 1: that's what makes me qualified to do this work. So
Speaker 1: if you're the proud owner of a pulse, you're qualified.
Speaker 1: The problem comes when everything becomes so rarefied and specialized
Speaker 1: and people say, step aside, let me handle this. No,
Speaker 1: it's a human thing. So that example came from gang
Speaker 1: members who were doing hardcore gang intervention work as I
Speaker 1: was in the early days, and finally I'm the only
Speaker 1: white guy and the rest are all gang members. And
Speaker 1: at one point they had a lot of respect for
Speaker 1: me because they knew I was doing the work. I
Speaker 1: was out there, but they said, you know, bothering me
Speaker 1: with all due dispant, the homies are gonna listen to
Speaker 1: us more than they'll listen to you. And I always
Speaker 1: said the same thing. You're absolutely right if the task
Speaker 1: is yakking at homeboys, but it isn't. It's listening, it's receiving.
Speaker 1: It's allowing your heart to be altered. So that's a
Speaker 1: whole other stance and the stance that's important. You know.
Speaker 1: It's not just where you stand, but how are you
Speaker 1: standing there? Yeah. Yeah, that idea of going to the
Speaker 1: margins for our own heart to be altered, that's a
Speaker 1: real takeaway for me. It's an orientation. I mean, we
Speaker 1: talk about that in twelve step programs. Right. We're helping
Speaker 1: other alcoholics, not because we're so great, but because that's
Speaker 1: the best thing we can do for ourselves. It turns
Speaker 1: out to be a beautifully bidirectional, reciprocal relationship, but there
Speaker 1: is an absolute aspect of healing in it. For the
Speaker 1: quote unquote person who's been sober longer or the sponsor
Speaker 1: is I'm not doing this because you so deeply need
Speaker 1: my help. I'm doing it because I deeply need you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think so. And then we're tempted to stay Oh
Speaker 1: my god, that's selfish. Yeah, yeah, that's as it should be.
Speaker 1: It should be selfish, you know, because then that's how
Speaker 1: it becomes exquisitely mutual, that somehow, in each other's company,
Speaker 1: we're walking each other home and we're returning each other
Speaker 1: to our own dignity and nobility. So I don't do
Speaker 1: that for you, and you don't do that for me.
Speaker 1: It happens together, and obviously I think that's important, you know,
Speaker 1: because it keeps us focused on the environment and the
Speaker 1: community and the place. Transformation wouldn't happen here if it
Speaker 1: weren't for this actual place where everybody is giving a dose.
Speaker 1: You know. Homie said, there's an aroma here. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: what it's like. There's an aroma. So you want to
Speaker 1: stay connected to the transformational place, otherwise it becomes the
Speaker 1: d m V, you know, and you just have anger
Speaker 1: management is window forty nine, you know, and now serving
Speaker 1: number seventy three, you know, it's like, no, it's everybody's
Speaker 1: helping each other, everybody's walking each other home, and it's
Speaker 1: a beautiful thing to behold. So I'll ask you a
Speaker 1: kind of final question here as we wrap up, and
Speaker 1: it's really about gratitude, and there's a couple of parts
Speaker 1: to it. But the first is there's a thing that
Speaker 1: you wrote in the book about under the topic of gratitude,
Speaker 1: where you said the hope is that homies won't just
Speaker 1: settle for answers, but instead hold out for meaning. So
Speaker 1: I'd like to start asking you what do you mean
Speaker 1: by that? It's not about advice or here are three
Speaker 1: steps to get to that place. You know the truth
Speaker 1: of who you are and delight in it. And it's
Speaker 1: not about becoming a better person. It's about discovering your truth.
Speaker 1: Then you live from that truth and that's meaningful. And
Speaker 1: you know it's not purpose. I found. My purpose is
Speaker 1: to do this service thing. You know, it's not quite
Speaker 1: like that. It's it's more like I know who I
Speaker 1: am and nobody can touch me now, and you want
Speaker 1: them to get to that sense of confidence in who
Speaker 1: they are. But it's not a mountain you climb where
Speaker 1: you know, the top of the mountain is your your
Speaker 1: your best self. It's not about morality, which I think
Speaker 1: is really important. You know, the moral quest has never
Speaker 1: were kept us moral, it's just kept us from each other.
Speaker 1: So change the quest. It's about health. You know, I
Speaker 1: want to be healthier today than I was yesterday. And
Speaker 1: then you kind of catch yourself. You know Pema Children
Speaker 1: who was a friend of mine, who was a monk,
Speaker 1: she always talks about catching yourself, you know, so that
Speaker 1: you can be more loving and true and open your heart.
Speaker 1: And that's the idea. But you don't have to become
Speaker 1: a good person. You already are a good person, but
Speaker 1: you might want to, you know, remove the blindfold and
Speaker 1: see that you are. Ye. And what's the role of
Speaker 1: gratitude and all this for you? Well, I think gratitude
Speaker 1: is always the sign of health. You know, there are
Speaker 1: many signs, but gratitude is one of them because then
Speaker 1: you know what you have, you know what you've been given.
Speaker 1: Then you can cherish it, you can savor it, you
Speaker 1: can relish it, you can take care of it. And
Speaker 1: you can't do that unless you're grateful. Yeah. You quote
Speaker 1: a Peruvian priest who says only one kind of person
Speaker 1: can transform the world, the one with a grateful heart. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that's true. But in the end, all these
Speaker 1: things we think they're about character and good person, bad person,
Speaker 1: but it's really about healthy person, and a healthy person
Speaker 1: can maintain a grateful heart. So we all are on
Speaker 1: a continuum of health, and nobody is well until all
Speaker 1: of us are well. So how do we help each
Speaker 1: other move towards health and wholeness. I think that helps
Speaker 1: to frame it that way, because otherwise it's a battle
Speaker 1: between good people and bad people, and that's nonsense. Yep, Ye, well,
Speaker 1: father Greg, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure
Speaker 1: to have you on. As I said before, I've admired
Speaker 1: your work for probably ten twelve years now, So thank
Speaker 1: you so much. And we were supposed to talk last time,
Speaker 1: and you had something come up, and so I got
Speaker 1: to spend about thirty minutes with Fabian, and so this
Speaker 1: interview is going to have both of you in it,
Speaker 1: so it's gonna be lovely. That's great. Thank you. I
Speaker 1: really happy to speak with you. Take care. Thanks And
Speaker 1: as promised for the second half of this episode is
Speaker 1: the interview with Fabian Deborah. Fabian's work has been showcased
Speaker 1: in solo and group exhibitions throughout the United States and abroad,
Speaker 1: including Santa Barbara, Los Angeles, Kansas City, Brooklyn, and all
Speaker 1: throughout Latin America. Fabian served as a counselor and the
Speaker 1: director of substance abuse services and Programming, as well as
Speaker 1: a mentor at Homeboy Industries in Los Angeles for a decade.
Speaker 1: He is now the executive director of Homeboy Art Academy,
Speaker 1: pursuing and developing his vision to continue to serve greater
Speaker 1: Los Angeles area and abroad. So, Fabian, maybe I'll read
Speaker 1: the parable to you and kind of get your thoughts
Speaker 1: on it. In the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking
Speaker 1: with a grandchild and they say, in life, there are
Speaker 1: two wolves inside of us that are always a battle.
Speaker 1: One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness
Speaker 1: and bravery and love, and the other there's a bad wolf,
Speaker 1: which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And
Speaker 1: the grandson stops and thinks about it for a second
Speaker 1: and looks up at his grandparents as well. Which one wins,
Speaker 1: and the grandparents says, the one you feed. So I'd
Speaker 1: like to start off by asking you what does that
Speaker 1: parable mean to you in your life and in the
Speaker 1: work that you do personally? I think it depends on
Speaker 1: what portion of your life you're in, right, So I
Speaker 1: think back in my time when I was struggling and
Speaker 1: I was involved in gang violence and drug addiction. Yes,
Speaker 1: than that parable to me would make a lot more
Speaker 1: sense then. But I think as you start to transform
Speaker 1: and heal, you come to recognize that there is no
Speaker 1: bad people, And so when you think of that, you
Speaker 1: know you recognize for me, for example, like I've always
Speaker 1: wanted to be loving and caring to my children, but
Speaker 1: it was behind drugs, addiction and violence that I couldn't
Speaker 1: be present in their life. But that didn't make me
Speaker 1: a bad person. It just made me to be lost
Speaker 1: in the introim. So to me, when I hear that parable,
Speaker 1: it's about yes, if we put in that perspective, there
Speaker 1: is a duality and human beings that were constantly fighting
Speaker 1: to stay ahead to the right thing to live and
Speaker 1: passion to be loving, caring. There is that aspect and
Speaker 1: of course you know our trauma, our misery are suffering
Speaker 1: now for me personally is what I don't want to feed,
Speaker 1: but I embrace in order to stay on that positive
Speaker 1: side of things. And so and that's what we do here.
Speaker 1: I think what we try to do in our work
Speaker 1: is to remind folks of their goodness all the time
Speaker 1: and what it is they bring in who they are
Speaker 1: as individuals. For the bad, we recognize that we live
Speaker 1: in there, and there's the reasons why we don't heal
Speaker 1: or transform and delays our process. And so when we're
Speaker 1: doing this work, we're always finding the goodness and reminding
Speaker 1: the folks that we work with of their goodness and
Speaker 1: to it prevails away from the past. Yeah, I love
Speaker 1: that perspective. I've followed Homeboy Industries in the work you
Speaker 1: guys have done nine ten years now. I've been familiar
Speaker 1: with what you do, and I've always been struck by
Speaker 1: what you just said, which is that sense of doesn't
Speaker 1: matter what somebody comes through the door with. You're looking
Speaker 1: for the good, the undamaged, the best parts of them. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: and I think that's what it takes for the world
Speaker 1: to be able to remove any stereotypes or any misconceptions
Speaker 1: of the image of the gang member or just a
Speaker 1: person in itself, regardless of the mistakes he has ever made.
Speaker 1: You know, there's always goodness and somebody you know prior
Speaker 1: to and it's about finding where it stems from, you know,
Speaker 1: rather than judging them for what they do, because every
Speaker 1: action stems from something and what is that something? You know?
Speaker 1: And then you start to learn and understand the stories
Speaker 1: behind the individual, which then you say to yourself, how
Speaker 1: don't blame you, How I would probably done the same, right,
Speaker 1: But how do we move them from that and how
Speaker 1: do we invite them to this kinship and compassion that
Speaker 1: we still talk about. Homeboy Industries That's the idea, and
Speaker 1: it starts with them, right so before we can be
Speaker 1: compassionate of another, we need to be compassionate to ourselves.
Speaker 1: Before we can begin to love another, we have to
Speaker 1: begin to love ourselves. And I think that's what we
Speaker 1: do good at homeboys that we love them. We cherished
Speaker 1: them with tenderness and compassion until they learned how to
Speaker 1: do it for themselves, and then everything else comes after that.
Speaker 1: So was there a moment for you or a series
Speaker 1: of moments maybe you could walk us through kind of
Speaker 1: when things started to change for you and how that happened.
Speaker 1: I think for me, I've always wanted to change. And
Speaker 1: I think I was a person who was raised by
Speaker 1: great grandparents, you know, first generation Mexican American. Both grandparents
Speaker 1: came with many core values that would take off their
Speaker 1: shirts to give to the next male. Love your neighbor
Speaker 1: as you love yourself. All that, you know, all that
Speaker 1: came with my family. But it wasn't until uh my father, right,
Speaker 1: who was a great man as well, who I looked
Speaker 1: up to, who I admired, he had to make some
Speaker 1: choices that put him in the path of incarceration. He
Speaker 1: was an immigrant, and so when we came to Los Angeles,
Speaker 1: he tried to provide for his family, but because of
Speaker 1: the obstacles in place for an immigrant, he got his
Speaker 1: best thinking led him to the quick fix, which is
Speaker 1: strug dealing. And I think that when the impact began
Speaker 1: for me personally, I started to not see my father often.
Speaker 1: He will be in prison three years, come home to
Speaker 1: three months, do the same, go back for another four
Speaker 1: And so I was kind of raised by myself and
Speaker 1: my mother. So for me, those are the disparities that
Speaker 1: began to rob me of my hope in a sense.
Speaker 1: Even though Grandma taught me well and even though my
Speaker 1: mother modeled everything well, I was still missing something. And
Speaker 1: I was the guidance and love for my father that
Speaker 1: I really needed as a young man. And so then
Speaker 1: you start to fill in the blanks per se, and
Speaker 1: you start to volve for things. You know, other things.
Speaker 1: And in the environment where I grew up and Boil Heights,
Speaker 1: and it's Los Angeles, Boil Hights, there's gangs all around us,
Speaker 1: and every block is a gang. And where I come
Speaker 1: from is where Father Gregg came to do his missionary work,
Speaker 1: which was the Lord's Mission Catholic Church. I went to
Speaker 1: the lords Shan Catholic School, so I've known Father Great
Speaker 1: since I was ten years old, and because of all
Speaker 1: this turmoil that I encountered, not knowing how to cope,
Speaker 1: how to deal with things, I then start to partake
Speaker 1: and contributing the same misery onto others. It wasn't until
Speaker 1: I decided to kill myself. I had three near death
Speaker 1: experiences suicide attempts, and it wasn't my third suicide when
Speaker 1: I started to see that there is something much more
Speaker 1: greater than myself. There's something bigger than the life I'm
Speaker 1: living now. Even though I had children, even though I
Speaker 1: had a wife and I have family who loved me,
Speaker 1: I had to do it for me. And it wasn't
Speaker 1: until my third suicide attempt where I gained my spiritual awakening.
Speaker 1: That's when I knew there is something greater than me,
Speaker 1: greater than myself. And so at that point, did you
Speaker 1: remember Father Greg and the work he was doing and
Speaker 1: seek out his help and Homeboys help or did you
Speaker 1: originally get helped via a different way? Absolutely, I was
Speaker 1: part of Homeboy Industries in and now. Okay, throughout my journey,
Speaker 1: Father Greg would touch base with me. But you know,
Speaker 1: Father Gregg could only do so much, you know, he
Speaker 1: would be there for me, and he would just remind me,
Speaker 1: come on, so and you have a drinking and you
Speaker 1: have a drug problem, come ons and commands and but
Speaker 1: it had to come from within me. And eventually, because
Speaker 1: of that connection with Father Greg and Homeboy in existence,
Speaker 1: I knew then when there was time for me to
Speaker 1: make that change. The first step I took was to
Speaker 1: go to Salvation Army Rehabilitation Center. So I went to
Speaker 1: Salvation Army. I did six months there and I started
Speaker 1: to impact all that heard, all that pain that I
Speaker 1: was running from, and I knew then when I started
Speaker 1: to feel free or clear of drugs, then I knew
Speaker 1: that it was time to go look for Father Gregg.
Speaker 1: And so I came to Homeboy Industries and two thousand seven,
Speaker 1: and that's when I walked through the door and Father
Speaker 1: Gregg boiled received me with open arms, and he gave
Speaker 1: me an opportunity to reclaim my life. And so in
Speaker 1: that moment, I decided to get back into Homeboy and
Speaker 1: work my way up. I'm a fellow alcoholic drug addict
Speaker 1: in recovery. Did you go to any external programs for
Speaker 1: that or did you find what you needed in Homeboy? Oh? No, absolutely, no, no,
Speaker 1: no no. So I has to stay. Recovery is a
Speaker 1: lifetime process and we know this, and so I also
Speaker 1: have therapy, I have mental health. I have a therapist.
Speaker 1: I also did NA meetings, right, they still have to
Speaker 1: go to those support groups and a meetings. You have
Speaker 1: a sponsor that you have to stay working with as well.
Speaker 1: So it's an ongoing process. Here I am at seventeen
Speaker 1: years now clean and sober, and I become that sponsor
Speaker 1: and now I'm the one giving back and I'm the
Speaker 1: one helping others, you know, And that's an addict helping
Speaker 1: another addict. Now my experience is not their experience, but
Speaker 1: together we can create one. And it comes with recovery,
Speaker 1: it comes for healing and transformation. And that is why
Speaker 1: I've become and until this day, I still have a
Speaker 1: supervisor of some sort, mental health supervisor that I check
Speaker 1: in because you know, a lot of these things, if
Speaker 1: you're not in healing, they will be rich triggered. If
Speaker 1: you're not in recovery, you will get retriggered. And then
Speaker 1: I think, in the time, does heal those things? And
Speaker 1: then you get a better ego. Life Bird's view on
Speaker 1: how to correspond to the world rather than react to
Speaker 1: the world, you know what I mean. And I think
Speaker 1: that's the beauty because we could react to the world,
Speaker 1: and reacting to the world, I don't know how far
Speaker 1: that got me. So it's better to step back and
Speaker 1: correspond in a way that it's going to be healthy
Speaker 1: and beneficial for me first and foremost, so that I
Speaker 1: can be affected to those who are receiving or who
Speaker 1: I'm walking with. So now let's add art into the mix.
Speaker 1: I know that you're now the director of the Homeboy
Speaker 1: Industries Art Institute, Yes, the Homeboy Art Academy, Homeboy Industries
Speaker 1: Art Academy. Yes. And I think for me, art has
Speaker 1: always been an essential tour. I mean, I was born
Speaker 1: with the gift of art, ever since I was a kid,
Speaker 1: regardless of what aspect of life I was partaken, and
Speaker 1: I was still an artist, born an artist. And then
Speaker 1: ever since I was a kid, I remember I would
Speaker 1: admire the animation cartoons like Tom and Jerry, Popeye, he
Speaker 1: Man and all these great cartoons. Those those images would
Speaker 1: just do something for me as a child. And so
Speaker 1: when I was a kid, and then my father will
Speaker 1: come home and disrupt the household and the family because
Speaker 1: of his drug addiction, domestic violence. Mom in despair, I
Speaker 1: will go and hide under a coffee table. And I
Speaker 1: remember this at six years old around that time, and
Speaker 1: I will go and hide under a coffee table, and
Speaker 1: I'll pick up my notebook and I'll begin to create
Speaker 1: my own worlds to escape my reality. That's when I
Speaker 1: discovered art to be more than just the talent. It
Speaker 1: was a if. It was a coping mechanism, something that
Speaker 1: I can turn to and that I can utilize to
Speaker 1: hold me when it felt like no one else was
Speaker 1: holding me. And I practiced that throughout my years of
Speaker 1: life and even the incarceration. I would draw about it.
Speaker 1: Even when I was in jail, I would draw, draw,
Speaker 1: draw on drugs addictions, I would draw, draw, draw. Never
Speaker 1: did I lose sight of my gift of art. And
Speaker 1: I think for me, I was painting even through my
Speaker 1: drug addiction Virgin Mary's throughout the city of Los Angeles.
Speaker 1: I'll put signs on different liquor stores, you know, to
Speaker 1: get my fixed. But now you know, when I came
Speaker 1: to Homeboy in two thousand and seven, I knew exactly
Speaker 1: what I had to do besides recovery first and foremost,
Speaker 1: I had a gift, and I have to pick that
Speaker 1: brush and continue to express my thought, emotions, most importantly
Speaker 1: my lived experience. And that's when I started to paint
Speaker 1: all over again. I had an exhibit in two thousand
Speaker 1: and eight after I got cleaned at Homegirwl Cafe, and
Speaker 1: I read recognize how many people really cared about me,
Speaker 1: I really loved me and knew me as an artist
Speaker 1: from my community. And I said, m hmm, this feels good.
Speaker 1: How do I amplify it? And then the next year
Speaker 1: another series of art. Then the next year, another series
Speaker 1: of art. Now you're going to Mexico City, and now
Speaker 1: they want you in New York. Oh and by the way,
Speaker 1: which you go to Jamaica. Oh and Chile wants you
Speaker 1: as well Honduras. And here I am now traveling the
Speaker 1: world through my own story testimonial, but most importantly how
Speaker 1: the art corresponds to my lived experience, and also doing productions,
Speaker 1: you know, for like different movies sets, you know, and
Speaker 1: also designs for the movie industry here in Hollywood. And
Speaker 1: I started to say, Okay, now now I'm living my
Speaker 1: dream in the way that I'm utilizing my gift to
Speaker 1: not only change to inspire folks for transformation, but also
Speaker 1: opening doors. As a self heard artist that in itself
Speaker 1: it is very meaningful and can be utilized to inspire.
Speaker 1: Are the next young man and woman that walks through
Speaker 1: my door? I've heard you say that. The question for
Speaker 1: you is how do I take all my experience as
Speaker 1: being a gang member, having no father drug addiction, put
Speaker 1: it in the jar, shake it up and see what
Speaker 1: comes out. Absolutely, and that was from the Getty Museum.
Speaker 1: I set that in a little short Dog of the
Speaker 1: Getty because one of my art works does live in
Speaker 1: the vote of the Getty Museum through the book called
Speaker 1: a Book of Friends, and at that book houses all
Speaker 1: l A graffiti artists. And so to me it's that
Speaker 1: artist is powerful man like art could make people or
Speaker 1: break people. Right, So if art is a window to
Speaker 1: another dimension, then what images them are portraying to the world.
Speaker 1: And so I think for me it's about taking my struggle,
Speaker 1: my lived experiences, and all those accomplishments and creating images
Speaker 1: that are reflective of my community. And this way they
Speaker 1: too can feel the transcendence of my own personal healing.
Speaker 1: But also say, man, I use it for uplifting and
Speaker 1: I also paint real people in my art, so I
Speaker 1: would choose someone from here, like, you know what, let's
Speaker 1: just say, Rosalinda, you have a look. Can I paint
Speaker 1: you to tell that story? I don't know what you're
Speaker 1: gonna do, but I guess. And so when I do
Speaker 1: that and I tell that story through an image, she
Speaker 1: feels inspired and she feels seen like he chose me
Speaker 1: to do that, Oh my god. And they also get
Speaker 1: to see themselves in a different light. But most importantly,
Speaker 1: I think for me, it's like, what is my responsibility
Speaker 1: as an artist? My responsibility as an artist is to
Speaker 1: help remove all stereotypes that have been placed upon the
Speaker 1: image of the game by utilizing identity, culture, religion, and gender.
Speaker 1: Those are my subject and things that are utilized to
Speaker 1: combat to stereotypes and helps me return the image of
Speaker 1: the game member back to his humanity or her humanity.
Speaker 1: That's beautiful. I want to ask you a question about hope.
Speaker 1: You know the work that you guys do at Homeboy,
Speaker 1: there are incredible stories of hope. Your story is an
Speaker 1: incredible story, but there's also great tragedy in there. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: How do you maintain a sense of hope or how
Speaker 1: do you know what to hope for in the work
Speaker 1: that you do? How do you think about hope? I mean,
Speaker 1: hope it's just extending our hand and being with folks tenderly,
Speaker 1: not judgment and all that. But I also believe that
Speaker 1: a lot of us already come from that lifestyle, right,
Speaker 1: So I think personally we get to build relationship with folks,
Speaker 1: we get to know folks. And I also believe that
Speaker 1: yet because this is the things that we are up against,
Speaker 1: you know, leaving or being part of a gang, and
Speaker 1: because of all those things we've seen, you know, we
Speaker 1: always living in fear. So the goal is to help
Speaker 1: them not to live in fear by creating a community
Speaker 1: of love, compassion and understanding that it will penetrate so
Speaker 1: much that then you have the essence to believe that
Speaker 1: you too belong and that you too have a sense
Speaker 1: of work in this world, and that in itself what
Speaker 1: smashed or topple that fear that we come from or
Speaker 1: that we lived through. And so it is important and
Speaker 1: it is through ritual that we acknowledge even in these tragedies,
Speaker 1: we always shine light on the goodness, for there is
Speaker 1: a lesson to be learned for every single one of us.
Speaker 1: Fabian brings something, Eric brings something. There are things that
Speaker 1: we contribute to this world, and when those strategies do happen,
Speaker 1: we make sure that our community recognizes and it's reminded
Speaker 1: of the individual's goodness, so that they too can feel
Speaker 1: that instance of hope coming from the contributions of those
Speaker 1: who might have left us a bit too. So what
Speaker 1: do you hope for now, at this stage in your life,
Speaker 1: your recovery, where you are, what do you hope for?
Speaker 1: I mean, I think for me, it's always been a
Speaker 1: dream of my you know, growing up in the Los
Speaker 1: Angeles boil hides. You know, there are minimal resources, and
Speaker 1: you know, I recognize that if I would have had
Speaker 1: for your college or had some sense of foundation or stability,
Speaker 1: I probably would have avoided many of the things that
Speaker 1: I've encountered. But because we come from deprivation, you know, poverty,
Speaker 1: you know, and knowing that I'm an artist, and I'm
Speaker 1: telling him my mom can afford art supplies, you know,
Speaker 1: I share that how it either we get milk or
Speaker 1: you get a brush. So of course I'm gonna run
Speaker 1: with the milk we needed for the house, right So
Speaker 1: we had to make choices around circumstantial barriers. So for me,
Speaker 1: my vision of the Humble Art Academy is to be
Speaker 1: able to create a community art school within the community,
Speaker 1: such as it's going to be able to receive everyone
Speaker 1: here and provide everything that institution can provide with hopes
Speaker 1: to put you into this trajectory of the art. Let's
Speaker 1: just say, and that's all it is. Man, if I
Speaker 1: can leave assets for my children, I have seven beautiful
Speaker 1: kids and a beautiful wife who stuck with me throughout
Speaker 1: my journey man and I put her through a lot,
Speaker 1: and she still stands by me. That's still with me,
Speaker 1: and now she reads all the rewards of my own recovery.
Speaker 1: But I would just want to be able to leave
Speaker 1: some assets and also let my kids know who I
Speaker 1: was as a legend and artist of Los Angeles. And
Speaker 1: I think I'm doing a great job so far, but
Speaker 1: most importantly, leave a community college within community that can
Speaker 1: live on for those next generations to come. Well, I
Speaker 1: think you are doing it beautifully. Also a word that's
Speaker 1: used a lot, at least in father Greg's writing, so
Speaker 1: I assume it works its way through Homeboy. Is the
Speaker 1: word kinship? Is that a word that has meaning to you. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: that's I think what we called for the world right,
Speaker 1: for all of us to be a kidship regardless of
Speaker 1: race and necessity, regardless of choices or where I come from,
Speaker 1: where you come from. I mean kidship. It's a circle
Speaker 1: where everyone belongs right. And I think that's what we
Speaker 1: tried to convey to the world world, and that's how
Speaker 1: we live here. And I think in kinship, that's how
Speaker 1: we penetrate the lives of these young men and women
Speaker 1: that come through our doors, because for so many years
Speaker 1: or so many decades, we have been excluded or demonized,
Speaker 1: or judge or pushed out in a sense. And when
Speaker 1: you come to Homeboy, regardless of what we do, we
Speaker 1: embrace you, and we're just gonna get closer. And I
Speaker 1: think that's how the world needs, you know, that's the
Speaker 1: an adult. If we can all just see either eye
Speaker 1: and live in kinship, regardless of where we are or
Speaker 1: who we are, then we're making a big old difference.
Speaker 1: And and that's just too bad that the world hasn't
Speaker 1: seen that yet. But in our world at Homeboy, we do.
Speaker 1: And then what happens at Homeboy, because I've changed my
Speaker 1: life now I have a ripple effect, and then I
Speaker 1: create the same thing put in place amongst my youth here,
Speaker 1: and then they change their life, and then they create
Speaker 1: a ripple effect. And that's the idea. So Father Greg,
Speaker 1: back in the days, they used to ask him, how
Speaker 1: is it working with gangs? And Father Greg would say,
Speaker 1: I don't work with gangs. I worked with gang member
Speaker 1: because the minute the gang member decides to redirect his life,
Speaker 1: in the end, there's no recruits. Now let's put in perspective,
Speaker 1: Fabian has seven children. The chances of my kids joining
Speaker 1: the gang is zero to none. It's ridiculous because now
Speaker 1: there's nothing but loved, compassion and understanding and my household
Speaker 1: everything a child needs to sustain his innocence, to feel
Speaker 1: his worth to go out ad meet the world. There's
Speaker 1: no more abuse, there's no more domestic violence, there's no alcoholism,
Speaker 1: no drug addiction, nothing but love, compassion and understanding, and
Speaker 1: that's it. And you'd be surprised. I have my fourteen
Speaker 1: year old. At fourteen, I was learly, I was already
Speaker 1: in and out of incarceration. At eighteen, I was already
Speaker 1: an adult prison in and out, and here I got
Speaker 1: my nineteen year old hard worker, got his car, doing
Speaker 1: great in college. I got my other eighteen year old
Speaker 1: who's going to be a police officer, and he's a
Speaker 1: leaka dead three years in the academy. He's getting ready
Speaker 1: to get an internship to go be a police officer.
Speaker 1: And I sit back, Eric, and I sit in my
Speaker 1: living room and I look at my family and my
Speaker 1: children and my kids, and I'm like, you're blessed at thirteen,
Speaker 1: look where you were. You have no worry about him
Speaker 1: going there or doing that. And that goes back to
Speaker 1: making the decision to turn my life around, because I
Speaker 1: know if I would be missing in their life, I
Speaker 1: could only imagine how dark it could get. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that really is a beautiful story. And I look at
Speaker 1: my son, who is now twenty three, and when I
Speaker 1: was his age, I was a homeless heroin addict, you know,
Speaker 1: and just to see where he's at. Everybody has challenges,
Speaker 1: but he is in just such a different place than
Speaker 1: I was at that age. I feel so fortunate and
Speaker 1: blessed absolutely. And then because we know you and I
Speaker 1: are know how dark it can get and how lonely
Speaker 1: it can be, and how destructive it can become and
Speaker 1: I think every father and if you hear it here
Speaker 1: working with these young men and women as well as adults,
Speaker 1: every father or every homeboy or home growth. The first
Speaker 1: thing they say is like, I just don't want my
Speaker 1: kids to go through what I've gone through. Yes, and
Speaker 1: that is to be true, and there's some major truth
Speaker 1: behind that. And they would say what if, though, And
Speaker 1: then they say what if one of your kids just
Speaker 1: decides to And then you say, well, at least I've
Speaker 1: crawled through those darkest tunnels of my life and I
Speaker 1: know and have discovered things that I feel my work,
Speaker 1: so I'll be the best person to hold them even
Speaker 1: if that happens in my household. Is there anything else
Speaker 1: you would like to add that you feel it's important? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I just want to share. You know, I'm a very
Speaker 1: spiritual person. Now, I'm a very spiritual believer. I'm a
Speaker 1: spiritual person, and I would just say this the book
Speaker 1: forgive everyone and everything to me. It's just another seal
Speaker 1: of approval. Knowing that I met Greg when I was
Speaker 1: ten years old and he always infused the arts within
Speaker 1: the community. Then and here we are, you know, thirty
Speaker 1: four years later, that I've known him. Maybe I've known
Speaker 1: him for like I was ten. Yeah, I probably know
Speaker 1: him for like twenty eight years, almost thirty years, let's say.
Speaker 1: And so I would say, here we are, thirty years later,
Speaker 1: coming together under this one book and him infusing the
Speaker 1: arts way back when I was ten years old. To
Speaker 1: see this book come together to power players. Man, it's
Speaker 1: like it just looks amazing. His words with my visuals.
Speaker 1: It's a beautiful chemistry. I always tell him it's a
Speaker 1: matchmate in heaven. He starts laughing, But yeah, it's a
Speaker 1: good book, and I think the art corresponds. And why
Speaker 1: does it work? I think they asked me last time.
Speaker 1: Why does it work so beautifully? It's because we're in enlightenment.
Speaker 1: Father greats were words are my images, and my images
Speaker 1: are inspired by Father Greg's words. Because we've come from homeboy,
Speaker 1: there's a movement, there's a healing element, and that's why
Speaker 1: the images correspond beautifully. Man, Because it's the same mission.
Speaker 1: I do it visually, he do it it through literature.
Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, I agree. I mean, like I said,
Speaker 1: I've read Father Greg's work since he's been publishing, but
Speaker 1: to see it with your art gives it a whole
Speaker 1: another element. It is a really beautiful book. And you're right,
Speaker 1: you guys are in kinship with each other for sure,
Speaker 1: and then it comes through in the book absolutely. But
Speaker 1: thank you Eric for allowing me to share and be
Speaker 1: here with you today. And I hope any of these
Speaker 1: words I have come through me whoever is listening, that
Speaker 1: it inspires you and that it motivates you. And if
Speaker 1: you have anyone who might be struggling, or people you
Speaker 1: may know, you know where does the stem from. Let's
Speaker 1: get to know them. Let's be tender and really get
Speaker 1: to the bottom of why is it that the folks
Speaker 1: tend to struggle? And maybe in and maybe there the
Speaker 1: movement will began for transformation for the individual. Don't lose
Speaker 1: hope for God is good. And with that being said,
Speaker 1: thank you so much Eric for having me here. You
Speaker 1: are very welcome. It is my pleasure. If what you
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