WEBVTT - Nigerians Aren’t Sold On Digital Cash

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<v Speaker 1>This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberg I Heard podcast,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing editor of Crypto for

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg News. It's Tuesday, November one. About a year ago,

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<v Speaker 1>Nigeria introduced a digital version of its official currency, the naira.

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<v Speaker 1>The introduction of the so called e Nira was partly

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<v Speaker 1>a response to concerns that the rising popularity of crypto

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<v Speaker 1>in the country was going to threaten the banking system.

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<v Speaker 1>Now there are a few countries experimenting with their own

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<v Speaker 1>versions of digital money, including the Central African Republic, which

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<v Speaker 1>we've talked about in the show, China, Jamaica, the Bahamas,

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<v Speaker 1>and various islands in the Eastern Caribbean. Other countries, including

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<v Speaker 1>where I am in the United States, are in the

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<v Speaker 1>studying and thinking deep thoughts about feasibility phase of things.

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<v Speaker 1>So how's it going for Nigeria and then Era, let's

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<v Speaker 1>ask Bloomberg reporter Ruth Ola Rumby is the one year

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<v Speaker 1>and only zero points five percent of the population is

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<v Speaker 1>just in um either nire and Bloomberg Nigeria Bureau chief

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<v Speaker 1>Anthony Osai Brown Usability is key, all right? Now, the

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<v Speaker 1>usability argument is very little for its occurrencies. One of

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<v Speaker 1>the topics that we cover a lot on this podcast

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<v Speaker 1>is obviously digital assets, and you know, within digital assets

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<v Speaker 1>certainly crypto cryptos. In the name that say is the

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Crypto Podcast. But we've also talked about something called

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<v Speaker 1>central bank digital currencies, which is the idea of governments

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<v Speaker 1>themselves issuing a kind of digital cash. Can you all

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<v Speaker 1>talk a little bit more about what the Nigerian ex

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<v Speaker 1>periament with digital money has been like. Okay, so the

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<v Speaker 1>Nigerent Central Bank launched a data currency about a year

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<v Speaker 1>ago when the central bank decided that he needed a

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<v Speaker 1>form of an alternity to the nira um and that

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<v Speaker 1>was interestingly, after asking financial institutions not to honor crypto transactions,

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<v Speaker 1>he felt he needed an alternative to crypto transactions, so

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<v Speaker 1>it launched the inn Era to sort of replace crypto.

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<v Speaker 1>And so that's what the central bank has been doing

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<v Speaker 1>for some time now, and interestingly, the currency has not

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<v Speaker 1>picked up, possibly as much as the central bank bop

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<v Speaker 1>it would. Since then, Yeah, they've they've had about a

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<v Speaker 1>million people downloading the inn Era. What percentage of the

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<v Speaker 1>population is actually using this thing, it's about zero points.

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<v Speaker 1>Five percent of the population is currently used in the admira.

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<v Speaker 1>The right of adoption has been slow, and that's messing

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<v Speaker 1>because people are not either not trust in the government

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<v Speaker 1>in a given its stance against cryptocurrency, and mostly because

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<v Speaker 1>many people also don't know about what's innira is. So

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<v Speaker 1>you've got a country with a population of more than

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<v Speaker 1>say two hundred million. The government didn't exactly ban crypto,

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<v Speaker 1>but the central Bank made it pretty clear that it

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<v Speaker 1>didn't approve and issued some sternly worded letters to other

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<v Speaker 1>financial institutions, and they come out with this inn era

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, according to your reporting, one of the

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<v Speaker 1>reasons for that was trying to encourage people who live

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<v Speaker 1>in Nigeria but didn't have a bank account. Is that correct, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>that's relatively correct. The innigent population about five per center

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<v Speaker 1>for others have no bank account, and so the central

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<v Speaker 1>Bank talked it to be the innira. Well, if five

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<v Speaker 1>percent people of the people don't have a bank account,

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<v Speaker 1>but we have at least one hundred and fifty million

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<v Speaker 1>mobile subscribers, at least it's one percent of the population

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<v Speaker 1>have the phones. So the central Bank felt the phone

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<v Speaker 1>could be a good leverage to drive financial inclusion by

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<v Speaker 1>creating an inn era which can you can basically use

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<v Speaker 1>your phone to assess and pay for services through that platform.

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<v Speaker 1>So that that was the idea to increase financial inclusion

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<v Speaker 1>by leverage and mobile telect communications, but it doesn't sound

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<v Speaker 1>like that's what's happening. There's been a lot of challenges.

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<v Speaker 1>Awareness is there, and as Ruth said, there's also some

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<v Speaker 1>level of suspicion, some level of lack of trust in

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<v Speaker 1>the Central Bank. And then physically affordability. Affordability in the

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<v Speaker 1>sense that yeah, that everybody uses the phone, but not

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<v Speaker 1>necessary everybody that uses the phone can afford to load

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<v Speaker 1>the phone with in era, So that has been also

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<v Speaker 1>a challenge and a lot of people are just like

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<v Speaker 1>indifferent about the in era. Usability is a big issue.

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<v Speaker 1>Most people who have phones are already used to using

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<v Speaker 1>their banking apps and alternatives from the banking sector. And

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<v Speaker 1>also if you consider that internet pronatortion in Nigeria is

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<v Speaker 1>less than and you need internet to use the INNIRA,

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<v Speaker 1>so that could also be a reason for why adoption

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<v Speaker 1>is very low in Nigeria. Ruth, what has the government

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<v Speaker 1>been do going to try to drive adoption? So currently

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<v Speaker 1>the government is trying to target the transportation sector and

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<v Speaker 1>specifically the tricycle operators, and my guess is that the

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<v Speaker 1>government is start getting them because they're everywhere, both in

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<v Speaker 1>the rural area and the urban area. I live in

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<v Speaker 1>a Punja and the transple is one of the biggest

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<v Speaker 1>means of transportation here in the capital city. So I'm

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<v Speaker 1>gonna ask a like a completely. I have clearly never

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<v Speaker 1>been to Nigeria. Question, when I hear tricycle, I think

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<v Speaker 1>of like bike with three wheels. When you say tricycle,

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<v Speaker 1>what do you mean, Yes, bike with three wheels, think

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<v Speaker 1>Hollywood movies. I think India. You know Hollywood movies and

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<v Speaker 1>if you go to any rural area in Nigeria you

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<v Speaker 1>will find them. So it makes sense that this tricycles

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<v Speaker 1>would be of Min's focus for driving adoption. I'm learning

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<v Speaker 1>so much right now. So you know, Anthony Ruth, you've

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<v Speaker 1>both been reporting on nigeria financial system for a long time.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, we have interviewed some folks who have written

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<v Speaker 1>about what's been happening to the attempts by the Central

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<v Speaker 1>African Republic to launch its own digital currency as well

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<v Speaker 1>as you know, they've been trying to follow El Salvador

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<v Speaker 1>in adopting bitcoin. We've talked on this podcast about you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the fact that lots of other countries are thinking about

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<v Speaker 1>doing digital currencies of their own, with mostly mixed results,

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<v Speaker 1>right Like, some of them, including the US, are like, ah,

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<v Speaker 1>we're trying to figure this out. Some of them, like China,

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<v Speaker 1>like we can make you use this. So there's there's

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of range in terms of the success of adoption.

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<v Speaker 1>With the latest attempts by the Nigerian government to drive

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<v Speaker 1>people to to use this an era. Are you seeing

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<v Speaker 1>are you I need to see any results or is

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<v Speaker 1>this still a case of like in a year from now,

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<v Speaker 1>it's still going to be a tiny fraction of the population.

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<v Speaker 1>That's that's difficult to say. The central bank is quite optimistic, um,

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<v Speaker 1>but yeah, there's been It depends on what what happens

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<v Speaker 1>going forward. Would were likely to see. People have suggested

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<v Speaker 1>that the government intervenes by for example, pain have salaries

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<v Speaker 1>or salaries below a certain rage in in ira if

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<v Speaker 1>the central if the government takes such an action, they

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<v Speaker 1>were kind of like, we are likely to see high

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<v Speaker 1>take oporate in the in era. So it depends on

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<v Speaker 1>what actions the central bank or the government takes going

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<v Speaker 1>forward to compel usage of the inn ira, and if

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<v Speaker 1>that happens, then we'll see a significant difference. But if

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<v Speaker 1>that doesn't happen, then they're still going to be huge

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<v Speaker 1>resistance in the tacoporate for the inerra. It also sounds

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<v Speaker 1>you know, there's a quote in your story from one

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<v Speaker 1>of the drivers of these motorized tricycles, which is, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>why is the government asking us to collect in ira?

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<v Speaker 1>I thought the government said cryptocurrency is bad, and I

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<v Speaker 1>thought that was so interesting because it's like, it can

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<v Speaker 1>be hard to explain to somebody how this is different

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<v Speaker 1>from them using bitcoin on their phones. How is the

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<v Speaker 1>government trying to help people understand the difference? Is the

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<v Speaker 1>government trying to help people understand the difference? The government

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<v Speaker 1>has just said that this is different from cryptocurrency. That's it,

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<v Speaker 1>So most people I can't I can't explain to you

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<v Speaker 1>how different this is to cryptocurrency. And you know, if

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<v Speaker 1>the if the governments, that if the central that is

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<v Speaker 1>introducing the innira is not communicating well with us telling

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<v Speaker 1>us how different this is to uh to other forms

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<v Speaker 1>of digital currency out there, that I think that's a

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<v Speaker 1>that's a problem. I would never describe myself as a copywriter,

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<v Speaker 1>but I do think it's been helpful for me to

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<v Speaker 1>think about the difference here as you know, like and

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<v Speaker 1>there are gonna be people who are gonna write me

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<v Speaker 1>angry emails about that feel free crypto at Bloomberg dot net.

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<v Speaker 1>But what I'm going to say is that, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>like digital currencies like the Nira are like crypto issued

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<v Speaker 1>by a government, right, whereas tokens like bitcoin, ether doage

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<v Speaker 1>coin are things for which there is no central bank

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<v Speaker 1>like entity someone described them, describe them as private currency,

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<v Speaker 1>private currencies, government currency, and the private currency indeed. And

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<v Speaker 1>so you know, I think like these sorts of distinctions

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<v Speaker 1>might not matter to the person on the other end

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<v Speaker 1>of a transaction, but governments get really fussed about them because,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, as you said at the beginning, one of

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<v Speaker 1>the concerns that governments often have is the stability of

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<v Speaker 1>their own banking systems. And you know, various regulators around

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<v Speaker 1>the world, not just in Nigeria, have definitely expressed concerns

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<v Speaker 1>that cryptocurrencies could pose some kind of threat, real or

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<v Speaker 1>perceived to the financial system. Yeah that like banks, commercial lenders, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I have been very slow in adopting in pushing creating

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<v Speaker 1>awareness for the in era because there's no instensive for

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<v Speaker 1>them to do that. Cash taking on the act of

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<v Speaker 1>the banks that put on in an inira wallets is

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<v Speaker 1>not counted as cash on the books of the banks.

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<v Speaker 1>This is a really really important point, and I think

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<v Speaker 1>it's something that a lot of people don't necessarily pay

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<v Speaker 1>attention to, which is the banks themselves are not huge

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<v Speaker 1>fans by default of this kind of digital money for

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<v Speaker 1>the exact reason that you're describing, which is they don't

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<v Speaker 1>necessarily have the ability to make money on digital money,

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<v Speaker 1>right because it's like when you're you're borrowing, if you

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<v Speaker 1>have one era, that's a claim directly on the Nigerian

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<v Speaker 1>Central Bank Central Bank, Yeah, exactly exactly, and not a

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<v Speaker 1>claim on them. And meanwhile, they mobilize that deposit at

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<v Speaker 1>the costom and so physically they are losing by you

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<v Speaker 1>creating an nira and well it's on their account. We'll

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<v Speaker 1>be right back with more from Bloomberg's Ruth all Around

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<v Speaker 1>By and Anthony Osi Brown. You know, if you have

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<v Speaker 1>somebody who's listening to this podcast and they're like, wow,

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<v Speaker 1>this is interesting, I hadn't I never thought about that

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<v Speaker 1>this way? What is like one key thing for each

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<v Speaker 1>of you you think somebody should really like take away

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<v Speaker 1>from you know you're reporting. I think the key thing

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<v Speaker 1>is for me is the fact that this experiment UH

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<v Speaker 1>needs some form of intervention to make it gain traction,

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<v Speaker 1>and so far that intervention is not coming, and that

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<v Speaker 1>until we get the intervention, the currency usage for EXAM

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<v Speaker 1>in Nigeria is going to be a dream and their

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<v Speaker 1>awareness is not just going to usability is key all

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<v Speaker 1>right now, the usability argument is very little for the

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<v Speaker 1>data currency. So for anyone launching a data currency, you

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<v Speaker 1>have to think of the usability question and answer it

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<v Speaker 1>before you introduce it. Once you don't create that question,

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<v Speaker 1>once you don't answer that question, they're most likely you're

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<v Speaker 1>not like likely to make any got it and Ruth,

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<v Speaker 1>what about you? For me? I would say that you

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<v Speaker 1>also need to invest in educating the public what your

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<v Speaker 1>product is about. Obviously, if you'll bring it out to

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<v Speaker 1>a product, you'll send a gap in the market. But

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<v Speaker 1>if you're not educating the public the market, if you're

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<v Speaker 1>not telling them why why they need to use this

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<v Speaker 1>as well why it's good for them the rest of

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<v Speaker 1>adoption of in Naira is going to do remain low.

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<v Speaker 1>It's been one year and only zero points five percent

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<v Speaker 1>of the population is using um in Nira. So if

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<v Speaker 1>you're not giving out bangor campaigns, you're not telling people

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<v Speaker 1>about it and why they need to use it. We

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<v Speaker 1>probably will come back next year and still talk about this. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>you're welcome back on the podcast next year or any

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<v Speaker 1>time before that. Thank you both, it's been a pleasure.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you, Thank you for having us. Thank you Ruth,

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<v Speaker 1>and thank you Anthony for joining me today. You can

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<v Speaker 1>find more of Anthony Osai Brown and Ruth olar Rumby's

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<v Speaker 1>reporting on the Bloomberg Terminal on Bloomberg dot com or

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<v Speaker 1>follow them on Twitter. Ruth is at olar room By

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<v Speaker 1>that's O l U r O U n b I

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<v Speaker 1>and Anthony is at O S A E B. On

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<v Speaker 1>the next episode of Bloomberg Crypto. Is Bitcoin boring? Now?

0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:31.720
<v Speaker 1>That's the current meme slash complaint among a certain kind

0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:35.200
<v Speaker 1>of crypto enthusiast, and it reflects the recent very tight

0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:38.840
<v Speaker 1>trading range for the largest digital token. How are traders

0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:42.960
<v Speaker 1>responding to Bitcoin's relative absence of volatility? We'll discuss tomorrow.

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<v Speaker 1>This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily podcast from Bloomberg and

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<v Speaker 1>I Heart Radio. For more shows from I Heart Radio,

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<v Speaker 1>visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

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<v Speaker 1>you get your podcasts. Send us your comments, questions, or

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<v Speaker 1>suggestion for the show to Crypto at Bloomberg dot net

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<v Speaker 1>or find us on Twitter. We're at Crypto. The supervising

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<v Speaker 1>producer of Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky Verglina. Our senior producer

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<v Speaker 1>is Janet Babin. Our producers are Mohammed Faruk and Sharon Barriro.

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<v Speaker 1>Our associate producers are Ty Butler and Moses on Them.

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<v Speaker 1>Desta wonder At is our engineer. Original music by Leo Sidron.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Stacy Marie Schmal. We'll be back tomorrow