1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: A media. 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:07,880 Speaker 2: Hi everyone, and welcome. What could happen here? 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:12,559 Speaker 1: It is a second episode about Kurdistan. I am very 4 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 1: lucky to be joined today by Vladimir van Wilgeenberg, who 5 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: many of you will know is a journalist covering Kurdistan, 6 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: has done excellent work for a lot of publications. 7 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 2: So welcome to the show of Vladimir. Thanks so much 8 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 2: for invitation. 9 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:28,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks thanks for being willing to join us so 10 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: late at night your time. Let's start off by discussing 11 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 1: an event you attended or the event you were in 12 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: proximity too. By the sounds of it, people will have 13 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 1: seen this online, I'm sure, but it was the disarmament 14 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:48,279 Speaker 1: of a number of PKK garrillas that took place in 15 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,879 Speaker 1: the mountains of southern Kurdistan over the weekend of the 16 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: tenth to twelfth of July. 17 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 3: So yeah, a few days ago, well, I tried to 18 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 3: attend the ceremony from for the biggilas that were disarming. 19 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:07,559 Speaker 3: Basically what happened is that they burned their weapons, although 20 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 3: technically it's not really possible to burn a weapon because 21 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,400 Speaker 3: there were this colossicals. Basically that they were put they 22 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 3: put in a fire and it was in like actually 23 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 3: a tourist cave near doc Kan, so this is not 24 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 3: It was actually very different because I also have been 25 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 3: in during the peace process. I've also was in a 26 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:26,039 Speaker 3: press conference of the pik a K in two thousand 27 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 3: fourteen or fifteen or some of that around that time, 28 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 3: and that was very different because it was basically in 29 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 3: the area that the PIKAK is activated. It was in 30 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 3: the area under their control, but this was under a 31 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,960 Speaker 3: different Kurdish parties control. It's called the patriarch Union of Kurdistan. 32 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 3: So in Iraqi Kurdistan, you have two main parties, the 33 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 3: Patriotic Union of Kurdistan and you have the Kurdistan Democratic Party. 34 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 3: So this cave where they did the ceremony, which is 35 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 3: actually a tourist cave, it's in PK controlled area, so 36 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 3: the ceremony was sort of protected by PUK security forces. 37 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's why. 38 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 3: Also the PUK media they got a lot of special access, 39 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 3: and also there was the Turkish government media was there 40 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 3: and also PIKK media was there and a lot of 41 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 3: other Kurdish TV channels. 42 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 2: So it was a very interesting day. 43 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 3: Although I was not able to pass the checkpoint towards 44 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 3: the ceremony because at the last moment, actually a few 45 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 3: days before the ceremony, they. 46 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 2: Changed the access. 47 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 3: Supposedly it will be a very open ceremony, but then 48 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 3: they said because of security reasons that they had to 49 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 3: restrict the ceremony and there would be some TV screens 50 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 3: and stuff. And then I couldn't find the TV screens. 51 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,959 Speaker 3: But that's another discussion. But I also don't still understand 52 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 3: what the security risk was. Although a day before there 53 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 3: was a drone strike on a Kurdish Peshmarga base, but 54 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 3: it was like quite far away from that. It was 55 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 3: one hour away from the ceremony location. 56 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's an Iranian durned to jake great like 57 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:57,239 Speaker 1: a Shahi drone. 58 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, So there have been like no group has these attacks. 59 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 3: But in the aftermath of the Twelve Day War, there 60 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 3: have been a lot of drawn strikes in the Kurdistan 61 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:12,919 Speaker 3: region in various areas, including this morning on American Oil 62 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 3: Company's facility in the Hawk Province and the day before 63 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 3: that also on another field near Airbill. 64 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 2: So it has been quite tense yeh. 65 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 3: Which also probably affected the ceremony, although it's not really 66 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:26,359 Speaker 3: related to it. 67 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's different. 68 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 3: So yeah, basically what was interesting. So they have this 69 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 3: peace process between Kurdish rebels and the Turkish state. 70 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 2: It's all started with a. 71 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 3: Call by a Turkish ultra nationalist leader which actually in 72 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 3: the past actually called for executing of the Logeland. The 73 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 3: leader of the Kurdistan Workers Party has been in prison 74 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 3: since the nineties. He was actually surprisingly starting this peace process. 75 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 3: He was saying like we should have him talked in 76 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 3: the parliament and call for disbanding the pik a K. 77 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 3: So he never came to the parliament, but he released 78 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 3: messages from prison, and before the ceremony he released also 79 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 3: a video message where he again focused on disarming basically, 80 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 3: and then the ceremony basically came where you have thirty fighters, 81 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 3: fifteen women, fifteen men, because the PIKK is all about 82 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 3: woman equality, so that's why they did it fifty to 83 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 3: fifty and they put their weapons in this fire. So 84 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 3: I think this also sacrifice a point of renewal because 85 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 3: Kurts as a tradition, they have this Kurdish New Year 86 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 3: every year on twenty one March where people jump over fires. 87 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 3: There's a lot of fireworks and the Kurdish and Atros 88 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 3: is basically the start of a new beginning. Yeah, so 89 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 3: I think one of the reasons they chose these fires 90 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 3: is because of this idea of a new beginning, and 91 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 3: also the fact that when the PICAK started, there were 92 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 3: people that sort of the creators of the PIKK. There 93 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 3: are actually some of them they burned themselves in prison 94 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 3: in the in the Turkish prison. Yeah, so it's also 95 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 3: sort of related to that. 96 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 2: This sort of interlinks with a fire. Yeah. 97 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 3: And you also saw that they carefully put the weapons 98 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 3: in the fire, they didn't just throw them. So it's 99 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:18,039 Speaker 3: it doesn't mean that they have completely given up on weapons, 100 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 3: because they're still waiting on counter steps from the Turkish government. 101 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like there has been fighting between p KK or 102 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,280 Speaker 1: hPG or how you want to say it, like hPG 103 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 1: being like the technically the armed wing. There's been fighting 104 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 1: in southern Kurdistan, like the in Iraqi kig Kerdistan Autonomous 105 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: Region of Iraq since the call for peace right, like, 106 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: there has been ongoing fighting. 107 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's not really I would not say 108 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 3: that it's like like actively fighting to take territory, yes, 109 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 3: which was happening before. So it's more that it's some 110 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 3: like Turkish armies shooting artillery on the PIKK, and there 111 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 3: was also one incident that the Pikk actually responded by drones. 112 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 3: But so far this didn't reach much in the Turkish 113 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 3: or the Kurdish media. I mean they were like, some 114 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 3: of this artillery shelling costs some fires, so villagers in 115 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 3: the areas it's a very hot summer now, they were 116 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 3: trying to put out the fires. 117 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 2: But it was not like the active, active fighting that. 118 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,919 Speaker 3: You had before, okay, And you know, since there was 119 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,040 Speaker 3: also a previous peace process. I mean, there have been 120 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 3: several peace processes since history between the Pikk and Turkey, 121 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 3: but they never had a positive result. And last one 122 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 3: before this song was twenty fifteen. And after that peace 123 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 3: process broke down when two policemen were shot. It's still 124 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 3: unclear who shot those policemen. The fighting erupted again and 125 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 3: since then there have been heavy fighting, first in the 126 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:57,599 Speaker 3: Kurdish majority areas of Turkey until basically Turkey defeated Kurdish 127 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 3: armed insurgents in the Kurdish cities in Turkey, and since 128 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 3: then actually the fighting has moved more to Iraqi, Kurdistan, 129 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 3: where the PIKK has also a historical presence. 130 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 2: Is the nineties. 131 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 3: But what you now have is that we have this 132 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 3: new piece process started by this call of bats Shelley 133 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 3: and the big AKA leader O Johan has said the 134 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 3: time for armed struggle is over. We don't want to 135 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 3: have a Kurdish date. So basically what now is happening 136 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 3: is that the Kurdish Pikak and the Kurdish political counterpart 137 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 3: in Turkey, they're basically waiting for steps by Turkey now 138 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 3: to give them basically trust to continue this process. 139 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 2: And there was also a speech by. 140 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 3: The Turkish president Erdoland where he was also saying that 141 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 3: it's the end. We don't need anymore. We need to talk. 142 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 3: It's not a time for weapons anymore. We spend trillions 143 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 3: of dollars on the war against the Pikak. We had 144 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 3: this a lot of martyrs and we sacrificed a lot, 145 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 3: and it's now the time to stop the war and 146 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 3: to do talking. And he said they're gonna work with 147 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 3: the Kurdish Party and this ultra Turkish nationalist party the 148 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 3: MHP in the parliament and to also set up a 149 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 3: commission to basically work on constitutional changes. 150 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's take a break for adverts here and then 151 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: we'll come back. All right, we are back. I guess 152 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: we should talk briefly about like the nature of this, 153 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: this call for piece. You explained very well that this 154 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: is probably a higher chance of success than that has 155 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: ever been right, Like, we have the explicit buying of Ojulan, 156 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 1: who hasn't been seen on video since the nineties, so 157 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: like to have him making a video statement, it's quite significant. 158 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: I'm sure he's been seen on video, but like not 159 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: not like making a speech, right, and then that we 160 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: have like this this endorsement in the Turkish Parliament. Like, 161 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: I think there's been a lot of speculation about what 162 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 1: led to this, and some of it's not particularly helpful. 163 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 1: But you know, you're very well educated on these matters. 164 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: What do you think this means for not just the 165 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:13,199 Speaker 1: PKK but the k c K. I guess, like the 166 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: Kurdish Freedom movement, that the different movements throughout kurtis down 167 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:19,079 Speaker 1: they are inspired by the political thought of Aujilan. 168 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, until now, it's difficult to say what 169 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 3: exactly is going to happen because the BIKK said they're 170 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 3: going to go there will disarm. But there's other groups 171 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:33,320 Speaker 3: which are linked to the big K in Iran Iran 172 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 3: and in Syria and also for instance Sinjar, those groups 173 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 3: said they were not Some of them have said publicly 174 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 3: that we're not part of this process or they walk 175 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 3: on the process, and others they didn't really say much 176 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 3: to this group, haven't said really a lot. Yeah, so 177 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 3: it's also going to be interesting what will happen with 178 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 3: those groups, with the Iranian Kurdish group and also with 179 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 3: the Serian democratic forces in Syria that have a different 180 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 3: situation also after the fall of so they have these 181 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 3: stocks with Omascus. And actually one of the reasons that 182 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 3: the first peace process broke down was because that in 183 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 3: actually at that time also that Turkey was a little 184 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 3: bit afraid of this alliance between the Kurds and the 185 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 3: Americans at the time against ISIS that was then rising 186 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 3: up in Syria and attacked the Kurdish town of Coban 187 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 3: in Syria, which created an alliance between the Kurds and 188 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 3: the US against the ISIS terrorists militant jihadi group. 189 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 2: But now the situation actually is interesting. 190 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 3: So at that time the Curds were empowered in Syria, 191 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 3: but now you can see there's a completely different situation 192 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 3: now the opposite way. So now you have the rebels 193 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 3: that took over Damascus and they are now the government 194 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 3: run by Jiulani his previous name, who's now called himself 195 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 3: antal Shada his real name. So they now have a 196 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 3: new Islamist controlled government and Damascus, and there's a lot 197 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 3: of tension between the curts in Syria and Theamascus. So 198 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 3: this could also risk basically this peace process with Turkey 199 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:07,079 Speaker 3: because the SDF they have also ideological ins with the 200 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 3: pik Ak, so it's also interesting how this will work out. 201 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 3: So in the past it was also always like the 202 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 3: fighting between Turkey and the Pikak could threaten the SDF Assyria, 203 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 3: but sort of the other way around that fighting between 204 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 3: possible fighting in the future between Damascus and the Curtain Syria, 205 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 3: it could threaten the peace process in Turkey and Erdolan. 206 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 3: He made this very big speech not a very long 207 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 3: time ago where he mentioned that Turkey doesn't only want 208 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 3: piece for the curse in Turkey and for Alla Whites 209 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 3: also a religious minority in Turkey, but he was also 210 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:39,719 Speaker 3: talking that he wants piece for the curse in Syria 211 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 3: and also in Iraq, that they should also live like 212 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 3: a prosperous life in Syria, and that they have good 213 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 3: relations with the Sieran government. So I think that's also 214 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 3: a very interesting point that you don't see in many articles, 215 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 3: that there's like this very big interlinkage between all these 216 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 3: different tissues. 217 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think Turkey has maintained that the SDF 218 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: is the peak KK, right, just with like a different badge, 219 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: which is not the case. They share a lot of politics, 220 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:10,239 Speaker 1: but they're distinct. Turkey also has like extensive proxy forces 221 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 1: in Syria. Right, there have been fighting with the SDF 222 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: since I guess late well, I mean for years, but 223 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 1: like in an expanded sense, since since the beginning of 224 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 1: the fall of the Asad regime that we saw like 225 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: probably seven or eight months ago. 226 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:30,199 Speaker 2: Now, it's a very complex situation. 227 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:34,319 Speaker 1: It's also as we record this today on the fifteenth, 228 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: Syria is a very diverse country and add to all 229 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:41,560 Speaker 1: the groups you mentioned, there is currently fighting between the 230 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: government and Dru's militias. Right, can you explain a little 231 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 1: bit about the situation there and the relevance of that. 232 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 3: Well, I mean the Druze they are a religious community 233 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 3: that are not same as the Sunni Muslims, and they 234 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 3: control their own area on the border the town called 235 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 3: Sweda and the villages around it, and also they have 236 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 3: some areas in Damascus where they have their presence. 237 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, so the Drews basically during the time where. 238 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 3: The Assad regime still was in power, they didn't really 239 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 3: like fight very heavily against the Assad regime in the beginning, 240 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 3: but they didn't allow the Assad regime to recruit military 241 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 3: recruit people in their area and they sort of tried 242 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 3: to keep the regime out of their area. So during 243 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 3: the civil war they were sort of semi autonomous, but 244 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 3: not officially. 245 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 2: And actually in the last years before. 246 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 3: The fall Offasad, they were like a big protests in 247 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 3: the Drews areas in support of the Syrian Revolution and 248 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 3: against the Assaut regimes. So they were like very big 249 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 3: protests in the Druze areas against the Assaut regime. So 250 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 3: when the Assad regime was militarily weakening and the rebels 251 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 3: from the other side of Syria they were attacking the 252 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 3: Assad regime, the Drews they also joined the fight and 253 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 3: they marched together with the Southern rebels. They marched on 254 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 3: to Moscus, and they were actually the first one that 255 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 3: entered the Mouscus, not not the ahmtal Shada or the Hts. 256 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 3: Actually the first ones that entered the Moscus was the 257 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 3: Southern rebels and the Drews. 258 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 2: But but there's this thing. 259 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 3: Is that the Moscus wants to have this this new 260 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:17,719 Speaker 3: regime or the new government in the Muscus. They want 261 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 3: to have this very centralized system, so they don't want 262 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 3: the Drews to run their own armed groups and they 263 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 3: have their own sort of local autonomy, so they have 264 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 3: They have been fighting before between the Drews and the 265 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 3: new authorities in Syria in areas near Theamascus, but there 266 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 3: was like a ceasefire and the fighting stopped. But recently 267 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 3: there's also like historical tensions between these Arab Bedouin tribes 268 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 3: and the Drews in the area. 269 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 2: So these areas are quite mixed. So there's actually this 270 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 2: this recent conflict. 271 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 3: They started when Biduan tribes they they robbed like a 272 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 3: merchant who was a Druce and then after that they 273 00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 3: were like mutual kidnapping like tensions between both. And then 274 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 3: basically although the Moscus said they were neutral, the Mascus 275 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 3: started to support these Bedouin groups against the Drus and 276 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 3: started marching on on Sueda, which is the the Drew 277 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 3: stronghold on the border. 278 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 2: And so actually there have been like. 279 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 3: A few days, not even a few days, but have 280 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 3: been like a short period of fighting now. And actually Damascus, 281 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 3: they they entered this druze town of Sueda and they 282 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 3: actually said, okay, we control the town now, and now 283 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 3: we're going to withdraw the Serian army and then the 284 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 3: internal security force is going to control the city. That 285 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 3: very shortly after Israel started bombing heavily the cern armed 286 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 3: forces of the new Sirn government and then the Drews 287 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 3: armed groups they sort of pushed back and they pushed 288 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 3: out this internal security force out of the city. And 289 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 3: now the Drews are, according to many reports, back in 290 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 3: control of the city of Zuida. And now you see 291 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 3: that just like what happened with the Alla Whites when 292 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 3: there was this Asad regime remnants that they had uprising 293 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 3: against the new authorities. And then they were like these rebels. 294 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 3: They were mobilized with mosks all over Syria and they 295 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 3: went to the coast areas and they defeated those Asad 296 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 3: regime remnants, but they killed also a lot of civilians 297 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 3: some reports over fifteen hundred people. So what you now 298 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 3: see is that the Damascus is against mobilizing those people with. 299 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 2: Mosques to march on Zueda. 300 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 3: But the difference is with the other whites is that 301 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 3: Israel also has Drews, so there's also pressure on the 302 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 3: Israeli government to support the drew So it's not only 303 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 3: because of their strategic interests, it's also because there are 304 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 3: Drews living in Israel itself that also have joined the 305 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 3: Israeli army, so they're also pushing Israel for taking action. 306 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 3: So you saw that today, like Israel, they took a 307 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 3: lot of they carried out a lot of air strikes, 308 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 3: and the Drews that are basically back in control of 309 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 3: most of the Sueda city, not of the whole area. 310 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 3: But the fight is not all real yet. And then 311 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 3: you also have different rustractions. Some of them they have 312 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:07,679 Speaker 3: better relations with Damascus, the majority of them don't. So 313 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,360 Speaker 3: now we're going to see if there's going to be fighting, 314 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 3: if the fighting is going to increase again. We've seen 315 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 3: our reports as of that the HDS or the the 316 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 3: Moscus government forces that are using drones strikes by themselves 317 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 3: on RUS forces, so they're using basically the drones that 318 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 3: they used to overthrow the us UT regime. 319 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 2: Okay, so yeah, that's the situation. 320 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the world stopped looking at Syria. I mean, 321 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: I guess the world stop looking at Syria a while ago, 322 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:35,920 Speaker 1: like really, after the defeat of the Territorial Calipate. It's 323 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: been much harder to sell stories in big newspapers in 324 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: the United States. But yeah, it's by no means, like 325 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: the fighting is not over and it leaves their SDF 326 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 1: Western Kurdistan branch of this Kurdish movement right, like in 327 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 1: as you said, a fairly perilous condition. Right, the Damascus 328 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: wants to centralize. I think they want to They don't 329 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,679 Speaker 1: want to have independent they don't want to have like 330 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: federated autonomy. The United States seems to be, at least 331 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 1: the United States envoy to Damascus seems to be making 332 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: statements that suggests that, like the only way forward is 333 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:29,880 Speaker 1: through centralization. On one hand, we have the PKK alene 334 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 1: Gan arm. The other hand, we have the SDF in 335 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: its difficult position. Where does this leave, like the Kurdish 336 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 1: Freedom Movement. I think this has been the thing that 337 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 1: a lot of people all over the world have looked 338 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 1: up to. Right, people have especially rich Ava as this 339 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: example that people could build something, a place where freedom 340 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 1: could exist in the middle of this terrible war in Syria. 341 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 2: Do you think the movement's like in danger now? 342 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 3: Well, I mean you have this new government in Syria. Actually, 343 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 3: and in initially to Trump administration was quite reluctant to 344 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 3: have relations with the new authorities in Damascus because they 345 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 3: were I mean, Joolani used to be on a Amachada, 346 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:09,400 Speaker 3: used to be on a terrorist sanctioned list. 347 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:11,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a bounty for him at one point, 348 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: it wasn't there. 349 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, But I think there was like a very intensive 350 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 3: love being by some Gulf states and Turkey to basically 351 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:22,119 Speaker 3: remove the sanctions on not a shot at Jolani, but 352 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 3: also remove sanctions on Syria that the economic sanctions that 353 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 3: were actually were on the Asaturgy. So I think the 354 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 3: Trump administration changed their position, and also a new ambassador 355 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,719 Speaker 3: for Syria and Turkey was appointed, so he was not 356 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,360 Speaker 3: only the bassador Turkey but also for Syria, and he's 357 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 3: basically echoing a lot of the points of the new 358 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 3: authorities in Damascus that they was talking about one state, 359 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 3: one army, one days, one days, and the SEF should 360 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 3: be integrated and blah blah blah. 361 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 2: So there was there. 362 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 3: Was also recently there were talks between Theamascus and the 363 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 3: STF because in March they reached an agreement with Western 364 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 3: support and they were trying to basically make them or 365 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:05,120 Speaker 3: finalized agreement in recently a few days ago, they had 366 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 3: these talks in Damascus and the French were there, and 367 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 3: the Brits were there, and Americans were there. But this 368 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 3: agreement was not implemented, it didn't lead to anything, so 369 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 3: it was not really it didn't really work very well 370 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 3: because the Moscus is insisting on this centralized state. And 371 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 3: I was just listening to Kurdish sharing Kurdish official and 372 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:25,880 Speaker 3: she was also saying like, we don't want to separate 373 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,159 Speaker 3: from Syria, but we want to have some form of 374 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 3: local councils and a decentralized Syria and not like a 375 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 3: centralized Syria. And she was also talking about what happened 376 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 3: to the Jews, that it's not a very good example 377 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 3: for the future of Syria. Yeah, so I think definitely 378 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 3: what you're saying that there is a sort of a 379 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 3: threat because in the past he was very supportive of 380 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 3: the SDF in the fight against Isis, although they didn't 381 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 3: support so much their political project, but they supported them 382 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 3: because they fought Isis. And also they were keeping out 383 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 3: Iranian backed malicious from areas like the resor. But now 384 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 3: you don't have me run anymore. In Syria, they were 385 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 3: completely kicked out after the fall of the Acet regime. 386 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 3: All these militias they have been disbanded or hiding or 387 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 3: some of them actually now being used by the Muscus. 388 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:12,159 Speaker 2: Against the Druze. 389 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,959 Speaker 3: So doubt that argument is not there anymore that you okay, 390 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 3: we have the SDF, they keep out the I ran 391 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 3: from the oil fields. Yeah, you could still argue you 392 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 3: have still have the fight against ICES, I mean ICES. 393 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 2: Is still fred. 394 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, but the Curts don't have that same leverage anymore 395 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 3: as is in the past that they said, okay, we're 396 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,440 Speaker 3: the main ones fighting ISS, we keep out the run 397 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 3: from these areas because now you have THEMSCUS. The Moscus said, 398 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 3: why the kurt should do that, Like, let's us take 399 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 3: over those prisons and the camps where you have these 400 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 3: thousands of Isis families and ICES prisoners, and we don't 401 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 3: need the Curds to run the ICES. Well, we can 402 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,199 Speaker 3: do that for you. So I think that's now, Like 403 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 3: the big issue is that the US seems to be 404 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 3: more supporting the Moscus at these diplomatically than the SDF, 405 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 3: although military speaking, the support is still going on for 406 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:06,479 Speaker 3: the SDF until twenty twenty six in the last Entergon 407 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,360 Speaker 3: budget which was not accepted yet they're still like millions 408 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,160 Speaker 3: of support for the SDF to to maintain the prisons 409 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 3: and this. 410 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 2: Kind of stuff. So I think it's it's it's a. 411 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: Difficult situation, yeah, that these prisons like our whole and others, right, 412 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 1: like they there, I guess kind of the only leverage 413 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: the FDF has with the United States where they along 414 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 1: with the continuing and somewhat increasing ISIS attacks, but that's 415 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,679 Speaker 1: still much less of a threat to the US than 416 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 1: it was ten years ago, say, right, Like, it's it's 417 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,399 Speaker 1: much less of a significant thing. So, like what is 418 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:47,159 Speaker 1: the status of those prisons that currently they're still guided 419 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,239 Speaker 1: by the SDF, right, but the people aren't familiar. Can 420 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:54,120 Speaker 1: you just explain what those prisons consist of and like 421 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 1: who's in there and who's guiding them? 422 00:22:56,280 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 3: Well, so IS has credit this jihadi state between twenty 423 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 3: fourteen and twenty nineteen, but then the Kurdish led SDF. 424 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 3: They basically took most of these areas under ISIS control. 425 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 3: They defeated basically ISIS with the support of the US, 426 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 3: so they lost the territory. And the last battle basically 427 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,439 Speaker 3: was for a small town called Bajus and the Rezor. 428 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:21,920 Speaker 3: So you had all these ISIS families there, and also 429 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 3: there were like several ISIS foreign members that were captured, 430 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 3: so you have the wives of ISIS fighters and you 431 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 3: also have IIS fighters themselves that were captured during these battles. 432 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 3: So all these people they were brought to camps. So 433 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,880 Speaker 3: I was there in Syria many times. For instance, during 434 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 3: the battle for Raka, which was used to be the 435 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,400 Speaker 3: capital of the ISIS Caliphate, they were like bringing the 436 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 3: ISIS families and women to a camp in I know Lisa. 437 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 3: But after that they moved most of those people to 438 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 3: actually move almost all of them to the Roche camp 439 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 3: and all hold camp in northern Syria in the Hassaka province. 440 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 2: And also that includes foreigners. 441 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 3: You can imagine people from Uzbek Kistan, from Uihus from China, 442 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 3: people from Turkey, French people, European people, so it's full 443 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 3: of a lot of different people, and then the majority 444 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,919 Speaker 3: are actually Iraqis and Syrians, so the sea they have 445 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 3: this foul they a majority. Like a lot of people 446 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 3: in those camps, they have been repatriated or they have 447 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 3: to return to their homes. So I think those camps 448 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 3: like a whole camp, like the prison. It's not a prison, 449 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,160 Speaker 3: it's the camp. I think like the number of people 450 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 3: that are basically decreased almost fifty percent, but there are 451 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 3: still a lot of people inside. But the prisons you 452 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 3: have still all these Isis spiders that were in prison 453 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,120 Speaker 3: during the war, and a lot of them are foreigners, 454 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 3: including Dutch another country. You know, some countries they have 455 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 3: returned there, they have returned their people there. So we 456 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 3: have some people, you know, America they took back most 457 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 3: of the families and the fighters and they prosecute them 458 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 3: in the US. But you also have countries that didn't 459 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 3: bring back the fighters, for instance, only brought back the woman. 460 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 3: So that's the situation that all those people are still there. 461 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,640 Speaker 3: And it's actually what you mentioned that it's like one 462 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,159 Speaker 3: of the big reasons for support for the SDF, and 463 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 3: it's also one of the reasons that the SDF is 464 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 3: getting millions to keep those prisons in good shape because 465 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 3: they have been also attims by isis to free those 466 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 3: prisoners from those prisons. 467 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: Basically, yeah, in successful attempts in twenty twenty, twenty twenty two, 468 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,719 Speaker 1: I think it was when they had the last like 469 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 1: major prison escape, which, yeah, it's a bad thing for 470 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: our world if if all those all those people get out, 471 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 1: and like you say, lots of European nations, I think 472 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: it's something that I wish Americans had paid more attention to, 473 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 1: because I think that European nations have done the United 474 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,719 Speaker 1: Kingdom being a paramount example, is like rendered some of 475 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:55,640 Speaker 1: those people stateless, right that they've removed in this case, 476 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: Shmima Bagoom is probably the most well known example. Right, 477 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 1: they've removed her British passport and now she doesn't have 478 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,120 Speaker 1: a state. She's stateless. It's something that the US has 479 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 1: recently done to people living in the United States, and 480 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,199 Speaker 1: like it does feel something as if you know that 481 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: the president has been established and now it's being carried out, 482 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:19,919 Speaker 1: and it's obviously deeply concerning to see it happening here 483 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: after like it happened there that wish people had opposed 484 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:24,120 Speaker 1: it when it did. 485 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 3: Well I mean the US, in the US itself in 486 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 3: Syria was very a big advocate of bringing the people out, Yes, 487 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 3: it was, Yeah, because it will make it easier for. 488 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 2: Them to withdraw. 489 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,880 Speaker 3: So they were actually pushing those countries that didn't want 490 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 3: to bring back there are nationals to basically bring them back, 491 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 3: like Western countries, the UK and others. Yeah, but some 492 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,639 Speaker 3: of these countries were actually forced by court orders or others. 493 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 3: But a lot of these counties were actually quite reluctant 494 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 3: to bring them back because they're afraid of like security 495 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 3: risk and stuff, or that they will be released quite 496 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 3: quickly and then they would again like be active and 497 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 3: jihadist activity. 498 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:02,879 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so US was very so. 499 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 3: I remember that the US was even offering like members 500 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 3: of this Coalition against ISIS which was created in twenty fourteen. 501 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 3: Like she said, if you cannot bring them yourself, I 502 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 3: mean we can, our military can help you to bring 503 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 3: those people out. If you think that you it's it's 504 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,440 Speaker 3: difficult for you to go to Syria and pick those 505 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 3: nationals up from your accounts. 506 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, been pretty unsuccessful, like in a lot of 507 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: well in some European cases they have, but still, yeah, 508 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:31,119 Speaker 1: lots of them utterly refusing to do it. I wonder 509 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: then as we finish up here, right, like we spoke 510 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:38,439 Speaker 1: about this PKK disarmament, obviously it's a symbolic disarmament, right 511 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,399 Speaker 1: there is still I don't quite know how big the 512 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,239 Speaker 1: hPG is, but it's much bigger than thirty people. And 513 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: then the weapons they laid down were like a very 514 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 1: small percentage of their weapons. Were they just burning like kalashnikov? 515 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: So did they burn like larger weapons too. 516 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:58,120 Speaker 3: No, it was just their personal collagicals basically. Okay, yeah, 517 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 3: I mean it was also like more symbol like symbolic ceremony, 518 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 3: like we are willing to give up. But the thing 519 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 3: is that also it's still not clear what happened to 520 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 3: those thirty people. 521 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 2: Are they going to go back to Turkey, That's what 522 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 2: I wanted to ask, Yeah, are. 523 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 3: They going to stay in Iraqi Curdistan and find a 524 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 3: job there? Because you have people like that in Iraqi 525 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:18,919 Speaker 3: Kurdistan that used to be with the pigger k and 526 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 3: that now they work in I don't know, in media 527 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 3: or construction sector or entertainment sector. You have people like that, 528 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 3: But there's not much clarity on that. But I think 529 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 3: also that's because they're waiting on Turkey to make possible 530 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 3: constitutional steps, you know, to see what Turkey is going 531 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 3: to do, because for instance, Turkey could offer an amnesty 532 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 3: or the kind of things, then those people could return. 533 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 3: And also some of them were saying like now it's 534 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 3: the end of weapons, but we still want to be 535 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 3: involved in. 536 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 2: Politics, right through the political party. 537 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 3: So it's also possible that those people want to go 538 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 3: back to Turkey and basically take part in Kurdish politics 539 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 3: or Turkish politics to be more corrected in Turkey. So 540 00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 3: I think it's a little bit too early to say 541 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 3: what happened with those people, because I remember also if 542 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 3: I very much corrected, they're also having peace process that 543 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 3: basically people have given basically went to the border and 544 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 3: give themselves up to Turkey. But that didn't happen now, 545 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 3: so it's a bit different than in the past. Yeah, 546 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 3: but it seems that the Turkish government was very happy 547 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 3: with the ceremony. They didn't complain about it. 548 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: So okay, yeah, yeah, I wondered what happened. So those 549 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 1: guerrillas or former guerrillas I suppose, who laid down their 550 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 1: weapons at the end of the ceremony, they just kind 551 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 1: of returned to the mountains or whatever. 552 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 2: We don't know what will happen with them now. 553 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 3: That's that's not clear to me because there are still 554 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 3: some unanswered questions like what you mentioned now, like what 555 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 3: those thirty people did, Yeah, what those people are going 556 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 3: to do now? 557 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 1: So right, there's a lot of people, and it's a 558 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 1: lot of people, some of whom have spent decades as 559 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: cadra of the revolution, right they have they haven't really 560 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: known life outside of the revolution for a very long time. 561 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's so a bit difficult for them to 562 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 3: return to civilian life because I mean because they probably 563 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 3: joined when they're quite young, and I think I was 564 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 3: also the profiles of the people of the thirty people 565 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 3: will burn their weapons that a lot of them they 566 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 3: joined in the nineties. Wow, so they have been in 567 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 3: they have been in the mountains for a very long time. Yeah, 568 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 3: I mean some of them were young, but there were 569 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 3: also older people among them. But definitely it's going to 570 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 3: be a question what will happen with those people, although 571 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,640 Speaker 3: I mean they were also talked that some leadership of 572 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 3: the armed Pikak movement might go to Europe and get 573 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 3: asylum there. 574 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, Instead of going back to Turkey. 575 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, you have also a lot of courage 576 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 3: the asport or organizations active there, so they could like 577 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 3: basically embrace those people. 578 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, but they're still listed as a foreign terrorist organization 579 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 1: in most two Yeah exactly. 580 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 3: I mean, for instance, they probably would want to have 581 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 3: something like what the Syrian president have now Ahmatoshada that 582 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 3: he used to be listed as a sanctioned as a 583 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 3: terrorist organization and then to have that removed. But I'm 584 00:30:57,680 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 3: sure that that's not on the table anytime soon. 585 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 2: But that happened with the HTS. 586 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 3: But also it t happened for instance much Hulk and 587 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 3: Uranian opposition group they also got delisted. So it's technically 588 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 3: as possible. But I think we are like in a 589 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 3: very early stage of the peace process. So that's why 590 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 3: I think it's going to take time before we have 591 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 3: more clarity and some of these answers that questions you ask, now, 592 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 3: I mean most of the people that attended the ceremony 593 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 3: didn't have an answer to that too, because there was 594 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 3: not much clarity on that because it was just a ceremony. 595 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 3: There was like a statement. Journals were not able to 596 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 3: talk to most of the journalists. I mean there was 597 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 3: like some statement in some Kurdish media, but in general, 598 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 3: like they were not able to talk to those fighters, 599 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 3: like now, what are you going to do? There was 600 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 3: not like access to those thirty people that burned their weapons, 601 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 3: so it was like sort of quite very much controlled ceremony. 602 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 3: It was very difficult to report on it basically, which 603 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 3: is very different from the previous peace process when it 604 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 3: was much more open. But that time there was not 605 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 3: like forty fighters giving up their weapons. They just had 606 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 3: like sort of a press conference, is what we I'm 607 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 3: gonna do? And that was very different than what happened now. 608 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it gets it's a big just to keep watching. 609 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,959 Speaker 1: It's fascinating to watch it unfold. Like I was in 610 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: Curdish Down a year and a half ago, and it 611 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 1: is competed, it's seen. The situation is completely different likewise 612 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 1: in the whole of Syria. So yeah, it's fascinating to watch. 613 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: I'm sure if people want to know more about it. 614 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: You're very good at reporting on this. You often post 615 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 1: on Twitter about the situation, and you write for a 616 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 1: number of outlets. So how can people follow your work? 617 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 3: Well, the best place to follow my workers on Twitter 618 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 3: on x X because I'm quite active there, but also 619 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 3: I write for places like Middle East I something thanks 620 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 3: like watching the Institute New a Liance Institute. I also 621 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 3: write for a Kurdish magazine called Kurtist thank Chronicle, and 622 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 3: also I pitched for other websites, so I'm quite active 623 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 3: on different issues, but mostly focused on things related to Kurts, 624 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 3: mostly stuff related to Iran, Turkey, Siria. 625 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,719 Speaker 2: It's inter Yeah, well, thank you so much for joining us. 626 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 2: We really appreciate your insight. You're welcome, my friend. It 627 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 2: Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 628 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 3: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 629 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 3: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 630 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 631 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 2: You can now find sources for It Could Happen Here. 632 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 2: Listened directly in episode descriptions. 633 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.