1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:06,160 Speaker 1: Welcome to Wrongful Conviction, False Confessions. I'm Laura and I writer. 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 2: And I'm Steve Drisen. 3 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:11,040 Speaker 1: Today we'll bring you to Philadelphia for the story of 4 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: Walter Ogrod. Walter was sent to death row for a 5 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:17,319 Speaker 1: murder who didn't commit by an old school Philly justice 6 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 1: system that was better known for injustice. Walter spent decades 7 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: in prison until a new wave of reform minded prosecutors 8 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: went looking for the truth behind his conviction. Walter's story 9 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:33,559 Speaker 1: gives Steph and me hope that real reform is really possible. 10 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 2: So I was born and raised in Philadelphia, and a 11 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 2: few years ago Laura and I took a trip there 12 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 2: for work. I'm very proud of Philadelphia and I like 13 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 2: to show off the city. And there was this place 14 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 2: that I had to take Laura too. It's not Constitution. 15 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: Hall, okay, not the Liberty Bell. 16 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:07,320 Speaker 2: It's the Eastern State Penitentiary. 17 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 1: So you drive me to downtown Philly and there's this 18 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 1: rundown relic of a prison that's crumbling. It's covered in cobwebs. 19 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: It's almost like a haunted house in the middle of 20 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 1: downtown Philadelphia. It's not used any longer. 21 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:22,639 Speaker 2: It was built in eighteen twenty nine, but it's. 22 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: Been preserved there as this incredible monument against mass incarceration. 23 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 2: It's my favorite place to go because it fits the 24 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:34,759 Speaker 2: city's personality and history so well. This is the city 25 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 2: with an unbelievable history of injustice, mass incarceration, and corruption 26 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 2: within the criminal justice system. And this history of injustice 27 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:46,839 Speaker 2: it peaked when I was a child in the sixties 28 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 2: and nineteen seventies. This was the time when Frank Rizzo 29 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 2: was the police chief and then he was the mayor. 30 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 2: He controlled the city and he sent out a message 31 00:01:55,960 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 2: that when police officers coerced confessions, he had their best. 32 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: You know, just like Eastern State Penitentiary. Frank Rizzo has 33 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: become this symbol for the heaviest of hands in the 34 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: criminal justice system, for the way it can just come 35 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: down on the backs of people, especially people without power. 36 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 1: And that's exactly what we see in today's story, the 37 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: story of Walter Ogrod. Today's story starts in Northeast Philadelphia. 38 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: It's a working class part of Philly. The side streets 39 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: are lined with bungalows and the main drags are lined 40 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: with discount big box stores. The Northeast is an outlying 41 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 1: area pretty far from downtown where the courthouses and police 42 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 1: department are found. It even tried to secede once from 43 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: the rest of the city. But when it comes to 44 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: criminal justice, the Northeast is Philadelphia through and through. It's 45 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:48,360 Speaker 1: a full participant in the city's policing machine. When our 46 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 1: story starts in nineteen eighty eight, that machine was notoriously 47 00:02:52,440 --> 00:03:01,359 Speaker 1: harsh and way too often couldn't deliver real justice. It's 48 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:03,919 Speaker 1: July nineteen eighty eight, and on one of Northeast Phillies' 49 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: side streets lived the family of a little girl, four 50 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: year old Barbara Jeane Horn. On the twelfth of July, 51 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 1: Barbara Jane went missing sometime around two o'clock that afternoon. 52 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: By five point thirty, a neighbor peeked inside a discarded 53 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: television box that was sitting outside on a curb next 54 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: to some trash cans. Inside the box was Barbara Jean 55 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: and she was dead. She was unclothed, her hair was wet, 56 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 1: and she'd been struck five times on the head. It 57 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: was a horrendous crime. Police swarmed the block and found 58 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: four eyewitnesses who'd seen a man earlier that afternoon dragging 59 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: a cardboard box down the sidewalk. The eyewitnesses all gave 60 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: roughly the same description. They'd seen a man with brown hair, 61 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: around thirty years old, somewhere between five six and five nine, 62 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: with a medium build. It was a pretty good description, 63 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: but police weren't able to generate any real leads. After 64 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: several months, Barbara Jean's murder was featured on the TV 65 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: show Unsolved Mysteries and a police tip line was set up. 66 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: Close to a thousand tips were phoned in, but police 67 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: still couldn't solve the case after almost four years. In 68 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: early nineteen ninety two, the case was reassigned to a 69 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: new group of Philly detectives, and these new cops seemed 70 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: to have no difficulty picking a suspect, a twenty three 71 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: year old man named Walter Ogrod. Walter was a round shoulders, 72 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 1: thick glasses kind of guy who lived across the street 73 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: from Barbara Jean's family. He was black haired, six foot one, 74 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: two hundred and twenty pounds, not exactly the short, slim 75 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: man who'd been seen dragging that box. Walter had no 76 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: criminal record at all, but he did have a record 77 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:49,159 Speaker 1: of profound learning disabilities over the years, professionals who evaluated 78 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: him used words like extreme dependency and social inadequacy. His 79 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 1: teachers said that Walter was no troublemaker. He'd only ever 80 00:04:57,520 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 1: get in trouble because he was in the wrong place 81 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: at the time. For Walter Ogrod, the wrong place at 82 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: the wrong time was a Philadelphia interrogation room on April fifth, 83 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two. That morning, police called Walter's house and 84 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 1: left a message asking him to come in for questioning 85 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:17,919 Speaker 1: about Barbara Jeane. He wasn't a suspect, they said, he 86 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 1: was an informational witness. 87 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 2: This happens all the time. But this is a ruse. 88 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 2: There's already a plan afoot. Police officers don't view that 89 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 2: person as a witness. They view that person as a suspect. 90 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 2: It's a ruse because it creates a context in which 91 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 2: the confession is going to be viewed as voluntary. He 92 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 2: drove down to the police station on his own accord. 93 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 2: We told him that the door is open and he 94 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 2: can leave at any time that he wants. All of 95 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 2: these tactics we see over and over again, and oftentimes 96 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 2: it's the first step down the road to a false confession. 97 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: Walter was to help first chance he got At about 98 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:06,599 Speaker 1: one thirty that afternoon, Walter drove himself to the Philadelphia 99 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:11,719 Speaker 1: Police Administration Building. It's an imposing, severe nineteen sixties era 100 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 1: complex that Philadelphians call the Roundhouse. 101 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 2: The confession was one of police officer's main tools to 102 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 2: solve cases that were still open. 103 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: There were experts in breaking people, and the Roundhouse is 104 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: where the breaking happened. 105 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 2: It's the seat of police power in the city. 106 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: Walter showed up to the Roundhouse ready to cooperate, but 107 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,720 Speaker 1: wiped out. He had just finished an eighteen hour shift 108 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 1: driving a bakery truck around a three hundred mile delivery route, 109 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: and he'd been awake for twelve hours. 110 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 2: Before that, he had been up for like thirty hours. 111 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 2: He was exhausted. He came into the interrogation room expecting 112 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 2: to be providing information that was helpful to the police, 113 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 2: and he got hit with an avalanche. 114 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,239 Speaker 1: At the Roundhouse, police put Walter into a back room 115 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: where the table and chairs were bolted to the floor. 116 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: That's where he'd face fourteen hours of interrogation. 117 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 2: If you go without sleep for some period of time, 118 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 2: it clouds your ability to make rational decisions and leads 119 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 2: people to agree to things that they otherwise would never 120 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 2: agree to. And Walter had cognitive disabilities too, so these 121 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 2: twin issues made him an easy mark. 122 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: Now, the interrogation wasn't recorded, so we have no objective 123 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: record of what happened in the room. But Walter has 124 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 1: given a very detailed account of the interrogation. So here 125 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: we go. According to Walter, police started by asking where 126 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: he'd been four years ago on the day Barbara Jean disappeared. 127 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,119 Speaker 1: He went to work, he said. After he got home, 128 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: he remembered seeing Barbara Jean's stepfather going door to door 129 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 1: looking for her. But these answers didn't seem to satisfy 130 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: the police. Walter started to feel strange. Why were the 131 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: cops so interested in him? He stood up tried to 132 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: leave the room, but he says, his interrogators blocked the door. 133 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 1: The police handcuffed Walter to the chair and started showing 134 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: him photos of Barbara Jean's dead body in the cardboard box. 135 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: We think you did this, they said, Walter says. Police 136 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: told him witnesses had identified him as the perpetrator, even 137 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 1: though no one actually had, and when Walter insisted he 138 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 1: was innocent, the police told him he must be blocking 139 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: memories of the murder. They wrote down a description of 140 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: how they thought Walter had committed the crime. If you 141 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:46,079 Speaker 1: don't sign this confession, they said, we're going to take 142 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: you downstairs and we're going to put you in a 143 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,199 Speaker 1: cell with a bunch of black people. We're going to 144 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: tell them you killed a bunch of black children, and 145 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: then we're going to see what happens, except, of course, 146 00:08:57,360 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: they didn't use the word black. 147 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 2: This is the old school police department, the department built 148 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 2: by Frank Rizzo, who was an unabashed racist. I mean, 149 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 2: when he ran for mayor, he would hand out buttons 150 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:15,439 Speaker 2: to his supporters that said vote white. It's no surprise 151 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 2: in this context that Walter Ogrod's interrogation was saturated with racism. 152 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:24,559 Speaker 1: By three point thirty in the morning, Walter had had enough. 153 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: He signed each page of a sixteen page confession, all 154 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: of which had been written out by the police. According 155 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: to the confession, Walter lured Barbara Jean into his basement, 156 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: where he tried to molest her. When she resisted, he 157 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 1: flew into a rage and hit her on the head 158 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: with a two foot long metal bar from his weight 159 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:47,079 Speaker 1: set he rinsed off her body, hit her clothes in 160 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 1: a crawl space, and put her in the cardboard box. 161 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: It was a brutal statement enough to get Walter booked 162 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: into jail and charged with murder, but by seven am 163 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:01,199 Speaker 1: Walter was recanting. He called an atturn from jail totally 164 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,839 Speaker 1: distraught and said that police were telling him that he'd 165 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: killed a little girl and had a mental block about it. 166 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,959 Speaker 1: Walter said he didn't do it. When the lawyer asked 167 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: why he hadn't called earlier, Walter explained that he had 168 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:16,439 Speaker 1: requested a lawyer during the interrogation, but the police had 169 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: said they'd have to put him in jail until the 170 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: lawyer came, and in the meantime the inmates would kill him. 171 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: That was more than enough to dissuade Walter. 172 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 2: You might be asking yourself, how can they do that? 173 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 2: Aren't they supposed to stop when a suspect asked for 174 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 2: the right to counsel? And the answer to that question 175 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 2: is yes, that's the one bright line rule of interrogation. 176 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 2: Suspect asked for a lawyer, police officers shut up until 177 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 2: a lawyer comes into the room. But they could get 178 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 2: away with it because there's no recording of this transaction. 179 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 2: Police officers are going to say he never asked for 180 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,439 Speaker 2: a lawyer, and in Philadelphia in a court of law 181 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:05,079 Speaker 2: during this time, nobody's going to believe Walter Ogrid. 182 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 1: Walter's trial for first degree murder began in October nineteen 183 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: ninety three. The only evidence against him was his confession, 184 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: and there was plenty of reason to disbelieve it. The 185 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 1: confession claimed that Walter had hidden Barbara Jean's clothes in 186 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 1: his crawl space, but Walter's defense pointed out that no 187 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: clothes had been found there. A psychiatrist testified about Walter's 188 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: limitations and said the confession wasn't written in Walter's style 189 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 1: of speaking, and when Walter took the stand to proclaim 190 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: his own innocence, it was pretty clear the confession was 191 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:44,679 Speaker 1: written in words he'd never use. On November fourth, nineteen 192 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 1: ninety three, the jury announced its verdict not guilty. 193 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 2: The jury acquitted Walter Ogrid. 194 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: Let's say that one more time. The jury found Walter 195 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: not guilty. I mean, we almost never see this in 196 00:11:58,800 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 1: confession cases. 197 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 2: He is a rare event. It's like a total eclipse 198 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 2: of the sun. 199 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: For a moment. It looked like Walter was going home, 200 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: but as soon as the acquittal was announced, one juror 201 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: changed everything. He stood up and announced, I do not 202 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: agree with the verdict. The courtroom erupted and the judge 203 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: declared a mistrial. In the end, the jury had hung 204 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: eleven in favor of acquittal, one in favor of conviction. 205 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: After the trial, one of the eleven jurors who believed 206 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 1: in Walter's innocence told the media that he saw gaping 207 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 1: holes in the prosecution's case. I didn't put much stock 208 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 1: in the confession, he said, I wanted to see evidence. 209 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: Walter was retried in nineteen ninety six, and this time 210 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:45,679 Speaker 1: the prosecutors filled the holes in their case. They had 211 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:50,559 Speaker 1: recruited a notorious jailhouse snitch, a man named John Hall, 212 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 1: who was locked up in the same jail as Walter. 213 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 1: Hall had a miles long track record of claiming to 214 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: overhear other inmates confess to their crimes and at least 215 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 1: twelve different homicide cases. He told the authorities about these 216 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: supposed confessions in exchange for benefits like reductions in his 217 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 1: sentence for his apparently priest like ability to hear confessions. 218 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: Hall was nicknamed the Monseignor. 219 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:21,559 Speaker 2: He would read newspaper articles about these stories and then 220 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 2: claim that this suspect confessed to him, and he did 221 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 2: it because he was getting something in return, he would 222 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:33,559 Speaker 2: get a cut. In his sentence, he was a con man, 223 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 2: he was a liar, and the fact that prosecutors were 224 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 2: willing to use this man over and over again speaks 225 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 2: volumes about this unholy alliance between police officers and prosecutors 226 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 2: in Philadelphia. 227 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: This partnership with such a prolific snitch had helped the 228 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 1: Philly DA's office win a steady stream of convictions, but 229 00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: by the time of Walter Ogrod's second trial, the monster 230 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 1: had accumulated such a reputation that even prosecutors realized he 231 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 1: had no credibility left. 232 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 2: The baggage around John Hall was so heavy that the 233 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 2: prosecutors couldn't use him in this case. So what did 234 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 2: Hall do? Hall trained another inmate in the details of 235 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 2: Walter's story and used that inmate to be the snitch. 236 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: He wasn't the only priest there to take confessions. 237 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 2: That's right. He turned the jail and prison system in 238 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 2: Pennsylvania into a seminary. 239 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: For Walter's second trial. Prosecutors got around their usual star 240 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: witnesses credibility problem by calling a different inmate to testify. 241 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 1: Ja Wolchansky was an acolyte of John Hall, and Jay 242 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: was all too happy to take the monseignor's place on 243 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: the witness stand. At trial, Jay testified that Walter had 244 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: confessed to him in jail. For good measure, Jay added 245 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 1: a story about Walter, describing what happened when his own 246 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: mom asked if he'd killed Barbara Jean. According to Jay, 247 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: Walter told his mom, damn right, I did, and if 248 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: you know what's best for you, you'll keep quiet. 249 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 2: Believe it or not. 250 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: This is enough. Based on Jay's snitch testimony and on 251 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: the confession, Walter Ogrod was convicted of the murder of 252 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: Barbara Jane Horn on October eighth, nineteen ninety six. The 253 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: next day, it took this jury less than ninety minutes 254 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 1: to sentence Walter Ogrod to death and off Walter went 255 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 1: to death row. Walter's case went through years of appeals 256 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: to no avail. Eventually, a team of lawyers from the 257 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: Federal Community Defender Office in Philadelphia, along with attorneys from 258 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: a local law firm, began to reinvestigate Walter's case. In 259 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: twenty eleven, they filed a post conviction petition with some 260 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: blockbuster pieces of evidence attached. First, the petition took down 261 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: the snitches. It included an affid david from the Monseigneur himself, 262 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: John Hall, who said that his buddy Jay wol Chansky 263 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: never really talked to Walter in any detail at all. Instead, 264 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 1: the Monseigneur had told Jay what to say about Walter. 265 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 2: The Monseigneur finally had his come to Jesus moment, he 266 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 2: admitted that he had lied about Walter Ogrod. 267 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: After the Monseigneur died, his widow also submitted an affidavit 268 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: spilling details about the snitch scheme. Turns out she was 269 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: an accomplice in fabricating the Monseigneur's confessions. It was her 270 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: newspaper research that served as the basis for his stories. 271 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 1: But when it came to Walter's case, she couldn't find 272 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 1: much information in the papers, so she wrote Walter a letter, 273 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: pretending to be a stripper, asking for information about his case. Walter, 274 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 1: of course, never confessed anything to her. The story of 275 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 1: his guilt was all made up. As for Walter's confession. 276 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: The lawyers pointed out that Barbara Jean didn't have the 277 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: kind of skull fracture as you'd expect if she had 278 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: actually been hit over the head with a weight bar. 279 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 1: The confession just didn't match the facts of the case, 280 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: and it seemed there was a reason for that. The 281 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: same officer who interrogated Walter had been implicated in at 282 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: least two other false confession cases. One involved a man 283 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 1: who'd confessed to raping a seventy seven year old woman, 284 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: and another involved a man who confessed to killing a 285 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: local businessman. For closing those cases, the Philly police gave 286 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: this officer the nickname Detective Perfect. Thankfully, both of these 287 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:35,879 Speaker 1: wrongfully convicted men were later exonerated, and Detective Perfects record 288 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: was deservedly tarnished. 289 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:41,640 Speaker 2: The detective who took Walter Ograd's confession was a golden 290 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:46,679 Speaker 2: boy in the Philadelphia Police Department, and he claimed to 291 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 2: have a ninety five percent success rate in getting confessions 292 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:52,160 Speaker 2: to close cases. 293 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: There's a great quote from a journalist who followed this 294 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: case very closely, man named Tom Lowenstein, who said, you know, 295 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: having a ninety five percent clearance rate for a homicide 296 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: detective is kind of like Mark maguire hitting seventy five 297 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: home runs. You got to ask, did he do it 298 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: honestly exactly? 299 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 2: When you see detectives claiming to have that high of 300 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 2: a confession rate, you know there's a lot of false 301 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 2: confessions in that mix. 302 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,880 Speaker 1: The post conviction lawyers had presented a pretty compelling case 303 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 1: for Walter's innocence. Nonetheless, seven years later, in twenty seventeen, 304 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 1: the court still had not issued a ruling. But while 305 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: Walter's case was stalled, Philadelphia began to change. In twenty seventeen, 306 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 1: the people of Philadelphia elected a new unlikely district attorney, 307 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: Larry Krasner. Larry was a civil rights lawyer who made 308 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: his name suing the Philadelphia police for misconduct. He was 309 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 1: elected on a wave of neighborhood activism led by Philadelphians 310 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: of color who were angry at the authorities for years 311 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 1: of abuse and neglect. Larry Krasner quickly came to define 312 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,160 Speaker 1: a new vision of what it meant to be a prosecutor. 313 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: He did not believe in the death penalty, he did 314 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 1: not believe in knee jerk mass incarceration, and he did 315 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:14,679 Speaker 1: not believe in keeping innocent men and women in prison. 316 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: Here's our friend Carrie Wood, who works in the part 317 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: of Larry Krasner's office dedicated to overturning wrongful convictions. Before 318 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: she joined his office, she was a wrongful conviction lawyer 319 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:29,360 Speaker 1: like us who worked at the Ohio Innocence Project. 320 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 3: Larry Krasner was really thinking about the system differently and 321 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 3: wanting to return to her role of truth seeker and 322 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 3: representing the whole community, not just a particular swath of it. 323 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 3: That was really something that made me change my mind 324 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 3: about wanting to work in a DA's office. 325 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 1: Carrie has crossed over to the prosecution side with the 326 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: goal of changing it, and we're pretty proud of her. 327 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 3: Unfortunately, one of the biggest roadblocks to getting justice were 328 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 3: often secutor's offices. I thought that coming to a DA's office, 329 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 3: I might actually be able to make a difference to 330 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 3: right past wrongs and to use those past wrongs to 331 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 3: point to practices that needed to change. 332 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: After Carrie began working in the Philadelphia Conviction Integrity Unit, 333 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,920 Speaker 1: one of the first cases assigned to her was Walter Ogrod. 334 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 3: Walter's attorneys had pointed out that Barbara jen Horn didn't 335 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 3: have any skull fractures, and Walter's initial confession was that 336 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 3: he had a hit her over the head with a 337 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 3: large weight bar. That was certainly something that sounded worth investigating. 338 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: Carrie and her colleagues dove into Walter's case and what 339 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: they found was revealing. 340 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 3: We began to identify documents that looked like they had 341 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 3: not been turned over to defense counsel at the time 342 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 3: of the original trial. One of the things that really 343 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 3: jumped out at me was notes from the prosecutor about 344 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 3: what the actual tries cause. 345 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:01,119 Speaker 2: Of death was. 346 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 3: In those notes, it says Barbara Jane Horn had not 347 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 3: died from a blow to the head. The most likely 348 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 3: scenario was that she had been suffocated. So that particular 349 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 3: note in the file, once we came across it, was 350 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 3: a pretty big deal. 351 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 1: The state had known all along that Walter's confession, which 352 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 1: didn't mention smothering once, was not true, even as it 353 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,119 Speaker 1: sought to execute him. In fact, a new review of 354 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 1: the autopsy revealed that whatever did strike Barberaging in the 355 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: head was light weight and thin in profile. It definitely 356 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: wasn't the heavy weight bar that Walter's confession described. That 357 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,479 Speaker 1: was enough for Carrie and the Conviction Integrity Unit to 358 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 1: do DNA testing on the liquid that the morgueuld use 359 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: to wash Barbara Jean's body. 360 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 3: What else can Barbara gen tell me about what happened 361 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 3: to her that maybe was missed at the time. 362 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 1: The result they found a full male DNA profile. That 363 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:00,680 Speaker 1: profile didn't match anyone in the state or national DNA atabases, 364 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 1: but one thing was clear. The DNA definitely did not 365 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 1: belong to Walter Ogrod. And unlike in so many of 366 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,880 Speaker 1: the stories we tell on this podcast, these prosecutors understood 367 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 1: what a DNA exclusion like this meant. It was undeniable 368 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 1: proof that Walter had been wrongfully convicted. On February twenty eighth, 369 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,639 Speaker 1: twenty twenty, Carrie and her team filed a motion to 370 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 1: throw out Walter's conviction. The evidence used to convict him, 371 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 1: she wrote, was false, unreliable, and incomplete. Instead, she stated 372 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: Walter Ogrod was very likely innocent. For Walter to win 373 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: exoneration and leave death row, though it wasn't enough for 374 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 1: the DA's office to declare him innocent, the judge had 375 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: to agree to exonerate him or Walter wasn't going anywhere. 376 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 1: This judge was a former prosecutor herself. She'd tried homicide 377 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 1: cases alongside another prosecutor who later became the judge who 378 00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 1: presided over Walter's conviction. These two judges epitomized Philadelphia's old Guard, 379 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: both its harshness and its cronyism. So when the office 380 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 1: of Larry Krasner, that new reformer DA declared Walter Ogrod innocent, well, 381 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:14,719 Speaker 1: the case encountered some major resistance. 382 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 3: Once we had concluded our investigation, we were originally scheduled 383 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:22,199 Speaker 3: to have a hearing in front of the judge, but 384 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 3: unfortunately COVID happened. 385 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: COVID nineteen hit Pennsylvania only a few weeks after prosecutors 386 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 1: asked the court to throw out Walter's conviction. Court operations 387 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: slowed way down. The judge had scheduled a March twenty 388 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 1: seventh hearing on Walter's case, but halfway through March she 389 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,880 Speaker 1: canceled it. She was too busy. Her clerk informed Walter's lawyers, 390 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 1: and Walter's case was no more important than any other. 391 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:00,919 Speaker 2: It is more important and then any other. This is 392 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 2: a case where the district attorney is saying, we believe 393 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 2: this man is innocent that almost never happens. She put 394 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 2: Walter's life at risk. Prisons are a peatri dish for 395 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 2: this virus. COVID should have been a reason for fast 396 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 2: tracking this, not an excuse for delaying it. 397 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 1: But while the judge was delaying the hearing, Walter Ogrod, 398 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: then fifty five years old, was falling ill. According to 399 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 1: his lawyers, Walter spiked one hundred and three degree temperature 400 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 1: and developed breathing problems that made him feel like he 401 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 1: was inhaling through a wet sponge. In mid March, Walter 402 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 1: was isolated in his cell and left to battle his 403 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: symptoms alone. 404 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 3: The prison where Walter was was a huge hotspot for COVID. 405 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:54,879 Speaker 3: You become concerned that, well, you know, is this COVID? 406 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 3: Will he die in prison before he is able to 407 00:24:58,040 --> 00:24:58,880 Speaker 3: be exonerated. 408 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: Walter's lawyer were terrified that he wouldn't live to see freedom. 409 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 1: On March nineteenth, they filed an emergency request to get 410 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,440 Speaker 1: him tested for COVID and treat it at an outside hospital. 411 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: The DA agreed, but the judge again delayed ruling for days. 412 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 2: This is not the time for a power struggle. Give 413 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,880 Speaker 2: the guy the fucking test, Oh, yeah, there are other 414 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,199 Speaker 2: people who want to be tested too, but nobody else 415 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 2: has been locked up for two decades or more for 416 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 2: a crime they didn't commit. 417 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 1: Walter ended up fighting whatever virus he had in his 418 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: cell alone. After many days of sickness, he recovered. Walter's 419 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: health crisis had passed, But what about his freedom? Walter's 420 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: lawyers kept pressing. They begged the judge for ten minutes 421 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: of her time, got to wait until June was the reply. Finally, 422 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: June fifth rolled around. In true twenty twenty fashion, the 423 00:25:55,880 --> 00:26:00,640 Speaker 1: court hearing on Walter's release unfolded virtually on Zoom. Appeared 424 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: in orange prison clothing and a disposable face mask. At 425 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:09,160 Speaker 1: the hearing, Prosecutor Carrie would tearfully apologized both to Barbara 426 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: Jean's mother, Sharon Fahe and to Walter. 427 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 3: I spent a lot of time with Sharon and saw 428 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,119 Speaker 3: the huge impact that this case had on her life 429 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 3: for decades, and worked really hard to see if I 430 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 3: could answer the questions for her and then came up short. 431 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,919 Speaker 3: One of the hardest things for me to do is 432 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 3: to tell her that I wasn't sure if I was 433 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 3: going to be able to find the person that did 434 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 3: to her little girl, and that it was the mistakes 435 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 3: of this office that resulted in that. You know, you 436 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:47,159 Speaker 3: can't begin to fix anything until you identify or admit 437 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,439 Speaker 3: that you have a problem, you apologize for it, and 438 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:52,440 Speaker 3: you begin to work to make things better. 439 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,959 Speaker 1: And Carrie also had something to say to Walter, something 440 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: so beautiful that I'm going to read it to you now. 441 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 1: I am sorry it twenty eight years for us to 442 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: listen to what Barbara Jean was trying to tell us, 443 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: that you are innocent and that the words on your 444 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: statement of confession came from Philadelphia Police detectives and not you. 445 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: Not only did this misconduct result in twenty eight years 446 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,640 Speaker 1: of your life being stolen, but you were also threatened 447 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,400 Speaker 1: with execution based on falsehoods. 448 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 3: Having worked on a number of cases that have resulted 449 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 3: in exonerations even before I came to the office, one 450 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 3: of the things that the innocent person had often commented 451 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:40,439 Speaker 3: on was did they ever apologize? And most often the 452 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:44,199 Speaker 3: answer was no, someone who's innocent, it's the thing they 453 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 3: most often wanted to hear. I did a lot of 454 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 3: work to try to rectify what I could, but for 455 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 3: the things that I couldn't fix that had caused harm. 456 00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 3: Of course, you apologize. 457 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 1: It was finally enough, after months of delay, the judge 458 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 1: granted the DA's motion to throw out Walter's conviction and 459 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,440 Speaker 1: death sentence. Walter Ogrod walked out of prison that same 460 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,919 Speaker 1: day after spending almost three decades behind bars. 461 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 3: You know, wrongful convictions don't make people safer. You just 462 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,399 Speaker 3: slowly try to push forward and improve things so that 463 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:28,400 Speaker 3: more wrongful convictions like mister Ogrod's don't happen. It's really 464 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 3: hard for people to admit mistakes. The hope is that 465 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 3: more folks will be willing to step up and say 466 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 3: I got it wrong. What I tend to focus on 467 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 3: is can identify a problem and how can I fix it? 468 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 3: What can I do to fix this for mister Ogrod? 469 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 3: And then what can we do to make it better 470 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 3: for the citizens of Philadelphia. That's why I do the 471 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 3: work that I do. That's why I work in a CiU. 472 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 2: The truth is the single most important thing a prosecutor 473 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 2: needs to be concerned with, because without truth, there can 474 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 2: be no justice. 475 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: It takes a lot of courage to face the truth, 476 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 1: especially when that means someone with power has to admit 477 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 1: they made a mistake. 478 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 2: These are the prosecutors that bring nobility to the profession. 479 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:21,479 Speaker 2: These are the prosecutors that place seeking justice ahead of 480 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 2: preserving convictions. You know, the ghost of Frank Rizzo still 481 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 2: haunts the city of Philadelphia. 482 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 1: There was a statue of Frank Rizzo erected as a 483 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 1: monument to the city's law enforcement. 484 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 2: That statute was a symbol of injustice. It became a 485 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 2: rallying point for all of the activists seeking change to 486 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 2: policinc in Philadelphia. And finally the Mayor of Philadelphia, using 487 00:29:53,920 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 2: a crane, lifted it from its moorings and removed Rizzo's ste. 488 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 1: That monument to the old, unjust ways of doing things 489 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 1: came down just a few days before Walter Ogrod walked 490 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: out of prison. 491 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 2: To me, it's this sort of final fitting end to 492 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 2: a kind of policing and a kind of law enforcement 493 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 2: that plagued Philadelphia for years. It's the sign that change 494 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,640 Speaker 2: is here now and hopefully that it will endure. 495 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: Out with the old, in with the new. And that's 496 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,479 Speaker 1: the story of Walter Ogrod. Next week, we'll tell you 497 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: about a California man named Ricky Davis who came home 498 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,719 Speaker 1: from a party to find his housemate had been murdered. 499 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 1: The case went cold until fourteen years later when detectives 500 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 1: coerced Ricky's ex girlfriend into implicating him. Police thought they'd 501 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 1: found the killer, but it took nineteen more years for 502 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 1: this cold case to finally be solved. Right Wrongful Conviction, 503 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 1: False Confessions is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts 504 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: in association with Signal Company Number one Special thanks to 505 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 1: our executive producers Jason Flamm and Kevin Wardis. Our production 506 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: team is headed by Senior producer and Pope, along with 507 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 1: producers Joshi Hammer and Jess Shane. Our show is mixed 508 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 1: by Genie Montalvo. John Colbert is our intrepid intern. Our 509 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 1: music was composed by Jay Ralph. You can follow me 510 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: on Instagram or Twitter at Laura and I Wrider, and 511 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,960 Speaker 1: you can follow me on Twitter at s Drizzen. For 512 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: more information on the show, visit Wrongful Conviction podcast dot com. 513 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 1: Be sure to follow the show on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, 514 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at 515 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: wrong Conviction