Speaker 1: Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and The Black Effect. Coming up on this week's
Speaker 1: episode of Checking In. Is someone so near and very
Speaker 1: dear to me, Doctor Anita Phillips. She is a trauma therapist.
Speaker 1: She's one of the folks who called me in December
Speaker 1: of twenty eighteen when for the second time of that
Speaker 1: year where it felt like my world literally was coming
Speaker 1: to an end, like really, really really coming to an end,
Speaker 1: And it was doctor Anita Phillips who called me. And
Speaker 1: I believe that that was one of the phone calls
Speaker 1: in that time that saved my life. And I'm thankful
Speaker 1: for her. And you get to hear how she is
Speaker 1: so awesome and how she is out here saving lives
Speaker 1: through her ministry. Not only is she a licensed trauma therapist,
Speaker 1: she is a powerhouse minister, y'all, And I love how
Speaker 1: she merges faith and mental health. She is the one
Speaker 1: where she says prayer is a weapon, therapy is strategy,
Speaker 1: and I personally have known that to be true. So
Speaker 1: you guys, pull up a seat and get ready for
Speaker 1: my friend, doctor Anita Phillips. Hey, everybody, you know I
Speaker 1: count all episodes of checking it as special because everybody's special,
Speaker 1: you know. But listen, this is truly, truly, truly an
Speaker 1: extra special podcast for me today because I feel like
Speaker 1: she could be anywhere else in the world, but she
Speaker 1: is showing up to be with us today. She is
Speaker 1: trusted with Oprah Winfrey, the Oprah Winfrey now at work,
Speaker 1: a woman Evolved. She is a trauma therapist, a minister,
Speaker 1: a life coach. She has her own podcast called in
Speaker 1: the Light. But guess what. She's on her way to
Speaker 1: be in a New York Times bestselling author. Please welcome,
Speaker 1: She's on her way. She is on her way. We
Speaker 1: can feel it. Please welcome to Checking In, doctor Anita Phillips.
Speaker 2: Hey, Michelle, thank you so much for having me again.
Speaker 2: It's great to see you.
Speaker 1: It is awesome to see you too. I am truly
Speaker 1: excited for you. You've made a few changes. You and
Speaker 1: your Friendily, y'all have moved from the East coast. Y'all
Speaker 1: are in the south, y'all. She might be by coastal,
Speaker 1: I don't know, but last I heard she is living
Speaker 1: it up now in Dallas, Texas. May I add you
Speaker 1: and your husband were pastors, and now you've moved to Dallas,
Speaker 1: where you are serving in another capacity. Is all of
Speaker 1: these changes going?
Speaker 2: Let me tell you, it's been a lot of change.
Speaker 2: And not only did. We were senior pastors for eighteen
Speaker 2: years in Baltimore and then moved to Dallas, and so
Speaker 2: we're in a completely different space now. My husband is
Speaker 2: leading Bishop Jake's enterprise organization and I'm doing my work independently.
Speaker 2: So suddenly ministry is very different. Our lives, our children
Speaker 2: are out on their own. In the last two years
Speaker 2: they went out. So it's been a lot of change.
Speaker 2: And I have enjoyed all the changes, but sometimes it's
Speaker 2: a little overwhelming because even when change is good, it
Speaker 2: still can be challenging, and I think we need to
Speaker 2: be more honest about that. It can still have as
Speaker 2: challenges even when it's good, even when we're grateful, it
Speaker 2: can still.
Speaker 1: Yes, my older sister has three children. Her last baby
Speaker 1: is now on his way to college, so all of
Speaker 1: her babies are college students. And she just posted on
Speaker 1: Facebook she's feeling empty already and lonely. And some people
Speaker 1: are like, girl, this it's time for you to have
Speaker 1: some you time, and she was like, I don't need
Speaker 1: to hear that right now. I need to help me
Speaker 1: process what I'm feeling. She's basically saying, this empty ness
Speaker 1: syndrome is real.
Speaker 2: It's very real. It's having a biological effect on her
Speaker 2: because our nervous system kind of balances itself out with
Speaker 2: the people that we spend time with, our bodies that
Speaker 2: really are connected to and aware of who we're spending
Speaker 2: time with. And so when your body is comfortable in
Speaker 2: a space with all these other humans and then suddenly
Speaker 2: there aren't any, it can feel very jarring. And so
Speaker 2: it's real. It's not just in our phone unquote in
Speaker 2: our heads. It's in your body, it's in your heart,
Speaker 2: and then it also is in your mind.
Speaker 1: Well, I don't think I've ever said this to my mom,
Speaker 1: and that is Mama. I was ready to go now.
Speaker 2: I was ready to when I went, I.
Speaker 1: Was ready to go. But I'm not gonna lie. College
Speaker 1: started about a week or two before Labor Day weekend,
Speaker 1: so you know that, and you're not in school. Why
Speaker 1: was home the first place I went back to.
Speaker 2: That's a good thing. If that was a safe place
Speaker 2: for you, you know, then it's like or a safe person.
Speaker 2: I miss. Yes, our body's prave familiarity. So when we
Speaker 2: have a place that's safe and our body knows that,
Speaker 2: it asks for it back. That's why when we moved
Speaker 2: sometimes it takes a month or two to start to
Speaker 2: feel that comfort, be able to drive home without thinking
Speaker 2: about the directions. All of that stuff adds to how
Speaker 2: we feel safe. We don't even realize it, and so
Speaker 2: it can take time to feel safe physically and subconsciously
Speaker 2: in a new space.
Speaker 1: Come on, doctor, Anita, listen. She's talking about a safe
Speaker 1: place and how we can cultivate a safe place is
Speaker 1: going to be the question that I asked next. But
Speaker 1: at the same time, a lot of those questions can
Speaker 1: and will be answered in your amazing new book called
Speaker 1: The Garden Within, where the War with your emotions end
Speaker 1: and your most powerful life, that drops on September eighteenth.
Speaker 1: I am excited because, y'all, yes, I'm a brag. I
Speaker 1: got the manuscript right here. I'm not gonna lie. It's
Speaker 1: right here. It's right here in my iPad. I have
Speaker 1: pre read it and guess what I ordered. I pre
Speaker 1: ordered my copy. You can pre order the copies now, do.
Speaker 1: Anita Phillips has had an amazing place in my journey
Speaker 1: beginning in twenty eighteen. You guys have heard me say
Speaker 1: time and time again that prayer is a weapon, therapy
Speaker 1: is a strategy, and I always say I got it
Speaker 1: from doctor Anita Phillips. I am not one that takes
Speaker 1: people's quotes and not give credit to the person that
Speaker 1: coined it. And I literally did buy the T shirt
Speaker 1: as well. The book The Garden Within. We want to
Speaker 1: talk about cultivating safe places, but changes that happen neurologically.
Speaker 1: You talk about the nervous system, you talk about the mind,
Speaker 1: you talk about the you talk about so many things,
Speaker 1: but you also bring the Word of God in it
Speaker 1: at the same time. But can you just share how
Speaker 1: trauma can sometimes create flowers.
Speaker 2: Well, we are designed as gardens. That's how the Creator
Speaker 2: made us. And so that's why the Bible begins with
Speaker 2: this meticulous description of how the garden was created, because
Speaker 2: what we haven't realized is that there is insight into
Speaker 2: our biological, emotional, psychological, and spiritual makeup based on the garden.
Speaker 2: So it was like a blueprint was being laid out
Speaker 2: in the first six days of creation, and then God
Speaker 2: made us. We are embodied gardens and the soil is
Speaker 2: our heart, our emotional life, and that sits in our bodies,
Speaker 2: and so we have to think about ourselves that way.
Speaker 2: And trauma is an earthquake. It shakes the soil, and
Speaker 2: that can change everything.
Speaker 1: In the beginning of the book, you share with us
Speaker 1: things about your family and what even inspired you to
Speaker 1: go into the mental health space. You so lovingly and
Speaker 1: with grace and gentleness. You speak to us about your sister,
Speaker 1: but you share something that happened at the age of six,
Speaker 1: that there was a devastating moment that planted the seeds
Speaker 1: for this very book. Can you share briefly what that
Speaker 1: moment was?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that will We will buy the book.
Speaker 1: We will buy the book, Yes you will.
Speaker 2: That was the night that I was first awakened by
Speaker 2: my sister's screams. We were close sister, she was six
Speaker 2: years older than me. We shared her bedroom, and my
Speaker 2: sister woke up in the middle of the night just screaming, streaming,
Speaker 2: and that awakened me. And that was the first time
Speaker 2: that her symptoms which would eventually tell us the mental
Speaker 2: illness that she had, came the light and she was
Speaker 2: seeing demons standing in our bedroom door. And of course
Speaker 2: I grew up church. You got in Christ, you Penticople,
Speaker 2: so you know, a demon is an door. My parents
Speaker 2: came running from to the same oil. We're gonna get
Speaker 2: the oil. We're going to rebuke this. And I have
Speaker 2: no problem with that because the devil was real and
Speaker 2: demonic activity is an issue, but it is not always
Speaker 2: the only issue, or the central issue, or the initiating issue.
Speaker 2: So I don't say that to say it's not real.
Speaker 2: The spirit of Roma is not real because I embraced
Speaker 2: my faith, it's as much as I embraced my profession.
Speaker 2: But what happened was, over time, my sister continued to
Speaker 2: have those what we found out were hallucinations, and the
Speaker 2: prayer and the rebuking of the enemy was not doing it.
Speaker 2: So we knew it had to be something distinct because
Speaker 2: if it was the enemy, if it was the devil,
Speaker 2: he'd a big cast out of our house. I can
Speaker 2: tell you that it wouldn't have it wouldn't have stood.
Speaker 2: And so as time passed, it just spirals my sister's
Speaker 2: symptoms that were and now this is the early eighties,
Speaker 2: so we didn't understand mental illness in the early eighties.
Speaker 2: There was no conversation my parents weren't being like religious
Speaker 2: and rejecting it. It wasn't on the table in the
Speaker 2: early eighties. We just didn't know and mentally became addicted
Speaker 2: to drugs, and then that stole decades of her life
Speaker 2: in itself. And so unfortunately she passed away young, late forties.
Speaker 2: And even though she we thank god, in the last
Speaker 2: seven years of her life she got clean, she had married.
Speaker 2: She really lived a beautiful life. We were built a
Speaker 2: lot of our relationship. But I still see untreated mental
Speaker 2: illness as the cause of my sister's death. She didn't
Speaker 2: die by suicide, but untreated mental illness stole so much
Speaker 2: of her physical health and body that her body lastly
Speaker 2: just broke down because of the drug youth, which was
Speaker 2: a response to the mental illness. So often we're just
Speaker 2: looking at the addiction, but the addiction is just an
Speaker 2: infection in a wound. The wound was the untreated mental illness.
Speaker 2: And so even once the addiction was cleared, it had
Speaker 2: been someone stands to her body and the mental illness
Speaker 2: still needed to be treated. And so I don't say
Speaker 2: I used to say mental illness killed my sister, but
Speaker 2: I'm now careful to say untreated mental illness killed my
Speaker 2: sister because when we get treatment, we can.
Speaker 1: Live hand raised as someone who understands the importance of
Speaker 1: treating mental illness. Now, I'm like you as far as
Speaker 1: in the eighties, Well, for me, even being in school
Speaker 1: in the nineties, I didn't know that there was even
Speaker 1: a word called depression. Right, We heard of things like AIDS, cancer.
Speaker 1: I don't even say loupis only because my aunt had it.
Speaker 2: Right, it had to happen to somebody, you knew. We
Speaker 2: weren't having all these different health conversations. Like I said,
Speaker 2: the HIV conversation was huge, You're right, but we didn't
Speaker 2: know about mental of them.
Speaker 1: It was huge. Or because even being in middle school,
Speaker 1: when I can trace back symptoms of depression and anxiety,
Speaker 1: we even heard about STDs. But when mental illness was
Speaker 1: talked about, it was called well, you know she crazy, right,
Speaker 1: you know he's crazy where you know your granddaddy was.
Speaker 2: And Jay emotional. They just need to get theirself together.
Speaker 2: It's not being so emotional, you know. That was the blame,
Speaker 2: is that emotions were the problem. That's one of the
Speaker 2: reasons why I'm talking about emotions so much, because a
Speaker 2: lot of the stigma that's attached to mental illness really
Speaker 2: starts with a stigma attached to emotion. We believe emotions
Speaker 2: are bad, We believe emotion makes us weak. We believe
Speaker 2: emotions or something we can we should be controlling in
Speaker 2: our everyday lives. And so then if someone has depression
Speaker 2: or anxiety disorder, that's emotion on steroids. So now it's
Speaker 2: even more of a stigma. So I really think changing
Speaker 2: the way we see emotions will eventually change the way
Speaker 2: we see mental illness. HM.
Speaker 1: Well, speaking of that, you definitely link cutting edge scientific
Speaker 1: inquiry and scriptures ancient use of gardens to reveal what
Speaker 1: it means to truly truly flourish. Can you share a
Speaker 1: bit about how you came across these ideas and how
Speaker 1: you link them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it was a leap of faith in
Speaker 2: a way. I in my very first neuroscience class, way
Speaker 2: back when I was a PhD student, I saw a
Speaker 2: picture of a neurons for the first time, and it
Speaker 2: looked just like a seedling, like a plant, And I
Speaker 2: was so struck by it that I thought, am I
Speaker 2: just gonna let this go by as a coincidence, or
Speaker 2: do I really believe in the God of my Sunday
Speaker 2: school stories, because if I do, then God must have
Speaker 2: done this on purpose. What is he trying to teach
Speaker 2: us about our minds by having neurons look like it?
Speaker 2: And I decided, what if I really just take a
Speaker 2: leap of faith here and believe that their spiritual significance
Speaker 2: to this parallel. And so I went down the rabbit
Speaker 2: hole and found out it was significant. And even now
Speaker 2: I always say science is catching up with scripture because
Speaker 2: in recent years we are learning more and more about
Speaker 2: how much we are like plants, down to the fact
Speaker 2: that plants actually communicate with each other through their roots
Speaker 2: by sending chemicals across the soil. Our neurons communicate with
Speaker 2: each other through their branches by sending chemicals between the
Speaker 2: spaces and plants you saw the same chemicals dopamine, serotonin
Speaker 2: they are actually using in some of their communication patterns.
Speaker 2: And so you can talk that up to what you want.
Speaker 2: But I talk it up to a creator who left
Speaker 2: me very clear information, even though he knew we wouldn't
Speaker 2: see it until the twentieth centy. Yes, here it is.
Speaker 2: And so if my neurons, what comprises my mind is
Speaker 2: based on a plant, then where's the soil. The soil
Speaker 2: is the heart. You can't understand a plant without understanding
Speaker 2: where it's plant hid. It's called a plant like it's
Speaker 2: defined by where's planet is. And so we love to
Speaker 2: talk about the mind, but if plants are meant to
Speaker 2: teach us about our mind, then we have to look
Speaker 2: at where the plant is planted. If we're going to
Speaker 2: be like trees planted by rivers of living water. If
Speaker 2: we are planted, we have to know. And the Bible
Speaker 2: tells us that the soil is the heart. And so
Speaker 2: that's why I started researching coming to understand emotion, because
Speaker 2: if our hearts are that valuable to God that he
Speaker 2: would plant us in that emotion and faith, then we
Speaker 2: have this. We might have it wrong how we see emotions.
Speaker 2: We're not seeing emotion the way that God does.
Speaker 1: So we're not seeing emotions the way that God sees emotions.
Speaker 1: We're taught that have any emotions is a bad thing.
Speaker 2: Yep, we're taught there's something we have to control, manage, repress, separate,
Speaker 2: and that's just the emotional pain. Because everybody's fine with
Speaker 2: feeling good, but the emotional pain. We have come to
Speaker 2: believe one that it is a product of the mind,
Speaker 2: that is a product of thinking. But how can a
Speaker 2: plant create soil? How it doesn't work that way. It
Speaker 2: doesn't work that way. And so when Jesus told us
Speaker 2: the parable the sower in Matthew chapter thirteen, he tells
Speaker 2: us the heart is the soil, the fruit is our behavior,
Speaker 2: the seed is the words that we believe. And we
Speaker 2: know from that neuron that the plant is the mind.
Speaker 2: And so anytime we're worried about where we're what our
Speaker 2: thinking is doing, I always want to ask, how are
Speaker 2: you feeling? Because it is the emotional pain in our
Speaker 2: hearts that drives that are painful. And then we try
Speaker 2: and wrestle with the thought instead of being honest about
Speaker 2: the feeling. And so if we work on healing our hearts,
Speaker 2: we can often quiet our minds.
Speaker 1: Come on, you posted something. I'm being present, but as
Speaker 1: you're speaking, it's making me go to your Instagram page
Speaker 1: as we speak to look up something you posted the
Speaker 1: other day. It was so beautiful. I actually went and
Speaker 1: looked up the artists because I was like, I want
Speaker 1: that piece of art. When you said your hearts was
Speaker 1: never meant to be a battlefield. Your heart is a
Speaker 1: garden and the artist Sarah Alama's I believe I don't
Speaker 1: know see I think, oh sorry, Okay, so the heart
Speaker 1: and then she has these beautiful flowers and the ventricles
Speaker 1: of the heart. But when you're talking about the heart
Speaker 1: and distance, you're not actually talking about the thing that's
Speaker 1: beating in us.
Speaker 2: I'm talking about both because our biological heart is actually
Speaker 2: a part of our emotional experience. Is amazing. So yeah,
Speaker 2: I am talking about our emotions and that also talking
Speaker 2: about our heart.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I know that. But when people I just
Speaker 1: wanted information to be clear. Listen, I'm just gonna be honest.
Speaker 1: When you talk about the mind and the brain, almos
Speaker 1: two different things. So I don't want no one to
Speaker 1: get intwisted. Are you meaning the heart that? Yes, the heart?
Speaker 1: How can I articulate this the heart that's beating in you? Okay, yes,
Speaker 1: we get that. Because when you are anxious your heart,
Speaker 1: you can have physical symptoms and your heart flutters. When
Speaker 1: you're in love, your heart might skip a beat. When
Speaker 1: you're sad, maybe it slows down a little bit, or
Speaker 1: you just feel that heavy so that.
Speaker 2: It can actually slow down a little bit. And you
Speaker 2: do feel that heapiness, and it can even change shape
Speaker 2: in a way that can kill you. There's an actual
Speaker 2: medical condition called broken heart syndrome tackles people syndrome where
Speaker 2: the breath hormones rush to the heart under that kind
Speaker 2: of pressure in grief and change the shape of the heart,
Speaker 2: and it has been known to cause heart attacks and
Speaker 2: kill people. But what you're saying is true when because
Speaker 2: I often make sure people understand, the mind and the
Speaker 2: brain are not exactly the same thing. They overlap, but
Speaker 2: they're not the same. And it's the same thing with
Speaker 2: our hearts. Our hearts and our emotional lives are not
Speaker 2: exactly the same thing, but they are connected because our
Speaker 2: emotions begin in our body, in our autonomic nervous system
Speaker 2: outside of our wareness, and then that system sends that
Speaker 2: information to our heart like a router almost, and it
Speaker 2: sends the information to the brain. And so the heart
Speaker 2: is very much involved in communicating emotional information from your body, yes, brain,
Speaker 2: and so they are overlapped.
Speaker 1: Even in the book you even tell us it's reminding
Speaker 1: me of we'd be trying to disconnect, yes, from the emotions,
Speaker 1: and because we don't want to feel that pain in
Speaker 1: the heart. We don't want to feel that.
Speaker 2: We don't want to feel that stomach turning, we don't
Speaker 2: want to feel that breath, you know, changing all the
Speaker 2: things that happens when we are emotional pain. So we
Speaker 2: disconnect from that, and by doing that, we disconnect from
Speaker 2: our bodies. That's so dangerous.
Speaker 1: It is so dangerous. But you are on a mission
Speaker 1: to help reverse the effects of that, especially trauma, and
Speaker 1: so I'm thankful. I'm really excited for everybody to get
Speaker 1: And I got to say it right, I missed a word.
Speaker 1: It is called the garden within, where the war with
Speaker 1: your emotions ends and your most powerful life begins.
Speaker 2: Indeed, that's where it starts.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I miss that word begins. And I'm really excited.
Speaker 1: Now I'm gonna tease my listeners as your book helps
Speaker 1: us to resolve the battle between heart and mind once
Speaker 1: and for all, and you help to identify personal pain
Speaker 1: and trauma. I wish people would admit that, hey, it
Speaker 1: is trauma. And I always say respectfully, trauma isn't always
Speaker 1: blood and guts on the ground. Trauma could be how
Speaker 1: it made you feel when you saw your parents go
Speaker 1: to physical blows. How did that it's for sure you
Speaker 1: weren't able to get over that feeling. What's a tool
Speaker 1: you can share with us to start us in the
Speaker 1: right direction when you talk about cultivate a unique inner garden.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so where trauma is concerned, it's important for people
Speaker 2: to realize that trauma is an event that overwhelms your body,
Speaker 2: your nervous system's capacity to cope. It changes how your
Speaker 2: autonomic nervous system is working. It can put you in
Speaker 2: a state of hyper vigilance, a fight or flight, unresolved
Speaker 2: stress responses. It's not in your mind. It's not even
Speaker 2: just a feeling that we make it sound like our
Speaker 2: mind's creating feelings. It's a biological fit. And so that's
Speaker 2: why triggers are not something we do on purpose. These
Speaker 2: things are all happening outside of our conscious awareness and
Speaker 2: our conscious control. And so when it comes to cultivating
Speaker 2: your inner garden, that soil of your heart has been
Speaker 2: shaken like an earthquake. And so we want to begin
Speaker 2: to repair what has happened in our bodies. And we
Speaker 2: do that and foremost by finding safe basis for ourselves.
Speaker 2: And we started out talking about that, and the safest
Speaker 2: place I want there to be in your life is
Speaker 2: inside your body, where inside of you you can cultivate peace.
Speaker 2: And that starts with making my body safe, breathing exercises,
Speaker 2: not spending time with costic people who cause my nervous
Speaker 2: systems alarms to go off. Please please sleep. There are
Speaker 2: so many things because we don't trust our bodies. We've
Speaker 2: been taught not to trust them. I want you to
Speaker 2: start trusting your body. When your body says, hey, this
Speaker 2: isn't a safe place for me, you're like, well, maybe
Speaker 2: that's just my trauma. Well maybe it is, but that
Speaker 2: don't mean you're wrong.
Speaker 1: Wait a matter, No I mean you're wrong, does not
Speaker 1: mean you're wrong. And that even means sometimes y'all have
Speaker 1: to get her because she she ain't tell you don't
Speaker 1: go to the family reunion. She ain't telling you not
Speaker 1: to have relationship with family members. But trust how you
Speaker 1: are made to feel. Especially if you try to have
Speaker 1: a conversation with someone, you try to create a safe
Speaker 1: space and their response isn't so safe. Well, then you
Speaker 1: you then have to say, you know what I'm gonna
Speaker 1: I have to almost love you from afar.
Speaker 2: Sometimes that's true, isn't.
Speaker 1: Just what black folks will, We'll be like, I'm best family.
Speaker 1: That is your brother. You gotta make it right on.
Speaker 1: That's your mother. She brought you in this world and
Speaker 1: she can take you out.
Speaker 2: I think that black folks definitely have a strong instansis
Speaker 2: on the family unit, right, and many other people of color,
Speaker 2: And that's beautiful about us. But sometimes we go a
Speaker 2: little too far and demand that people suffer traumatic experiences
Speaker 2: as a result of genetic connection. And I am not
Speaker 2: required to be traumatized because we have a genetic connection
Speaker 2: and so boundaries are required. But at the same time,
Speaker 2: I want to encourage people to do their trauma therapy work,
Speaker 2: especially when it comes to thematic practices, embr thematic experiencing,
Speaker 2: because those things help to remove the visual effects of
Speaker 2: trauma from your nervous system. And I've done a lot
Speaker 2: of my own trauma work. You'll say, I'm not just
Speaker 2: a I'm not just a president. I'm a member. Remember
Speaker 2: the hairclub guy, He's rights a president. I'm a member.
Speaker 2: I've done the trauma work, and over the years, as
Speaker 2: I engage that work, when I would go home to
Speaker 2: visit family, I would have less physical responses to the space.
Speaker 2: There was a time where there was so much trauma
Speaker 2: from that space for me. When I would lead home
Speaker 2: from visiting, nothing bad might have happened, but my body
Speaker 2: still would feel tense. But there may come a time
Speaker 2: when you don't have the same reaction in their presence
Speaker 2: because of the trauma work that you're able to do.
Speaker 2: And so then you also the boundaries as needed. You
Speaker 2: can move them closer or further as needed on your journey.
Speaker 1: So when you are doing the work, it is left
Speaker 1: up to you, but you are saying that it is
Speaker 1: possible that you, once you do the work, you can
Speaker 1: go into those spaces again and not feel.
Speaker 2: I GUESSCT Yeah. Sometimes absolutely, this is not a life denting.
Speaker 1: It's so good.
Speaker 2: Trauma's not a life dentsing.
Speaker 1: Doctor Nita Phillips is actually she told me about EMDR
Speaker 1: towards the end of twenty eighteen, and I was okay
Speaker 1: with therapy, but there were certain techniques that I didn't
Speaker 1: know about, or certain techniques that I was like, wait
Speaker 1: a minute, is this going to take me into a
Speaker 1: different spiritual realm? Is this gonna be you know? And
Speaker 1: there are times I've done EMDR and I felt like
Speaker 1: I could fly. There was a freedom that came because
Speaker 1: there were certain lies that I believed, and I will
Speaker 1: never forget having awakening in a therapy session once saying,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, that was a lie.
Speaker 2: I was, y'all.
Speaker 1: Probably I got up and I said, that was a lie. Y'all.
Speaker 1: I felt like I could fly. I felt like I
Speaker 1: could jump on go in the building and have some wings.
Speaker 1: And I was like, Okay, don't do that. You don't, don't.
Speaker 1: You don't want to do that, because it's gonna be
Speaker 1: a different type of ending. Don't do that. And then
Speaker 1: there are moments of e M d R. Eye movement, resensitive.
Speaker 2: Movement, desensitization and reprocessing. Yes, yes, Dr.
Speaker 1: I'm glad we got the doctor in the building because
Speaker 1: I said, resense, it's decent. And there was a time
Speaker 1: I felt maybe low, some regret or something. And then
Speaker 1: this one session I had a couple months ago, Doctor Phillips,
Speaker 1: I let out a cry and well, I feel like
Speaker 1: it came from the pit of my belly butt where
Speaker 1: the umbilical court used to be like. And I think
Speaker 1: therapists sometimes even feel like I cannot hug my client.
Speaker 1: But my therapist came and consoled the little girl.
Speaker 2: Yes, good for her good good for her because the
Speaker 2: little girl is who was traumatized and being able to
Speaker 2: get back there and let her let that cry out.
Speaker 1: Yes, any chance I get you, guys, I think doctor
Speaker 1: Anita Phillips to her face on the phone or through text,
Speaker 1: because since then that's a technique that I've used. Em dr.
Speaker 1: It must be with us licensed practitioner who the safe.
Speaker 1: The space is safe because you might cry, you might laugh,
Speaker 1: you might get up and dance. I don't know what
Speaker 1: your response is gonna be, but it must be with
Speaker 1: someone safe and someone licensed to do what you do.
Speaker 1: You found a beautiful bridge to connecting church with therapy,
Speaker 1: and you have shared your emotional pain is not mutually
Speaker 1: exclusive with your spiritual power. Jesus taught us that holding
Speaker 1: the pain doesn't make our faith stronger. It weakens us physically,
Speaker 1: mentally and spiritually. Keep it real. That's what Jesus did.
Speaker 1: So the question is how much as a culture do
Speaker 1: you feel that we as a culture have to unlearn
Speaker 1: holding in trauma?
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. We have brought culture to church. The
Speaker 2: culture around us says emotion is bad. The mind is
Speaker 2: where your power is. Change the way you think you'll
Speaker 2: change everything, but honey, it's heal the heart and you'll
Speaker 2: change everything. Jesus never held in a painful emotion. We
Speaker 2: see him crying, we see him mad, we see him
Speaker 2: afraid in the garden of Ysemone, begging God for a break.
Speaker 2: I mean Jesus never repented, which means no emotion is wrong,
Speaker 2: because Jesus never said sorry. And so I think we
Speaker 2: really need to pay close attention to that example and
Speaker 2: then look back and see that every time Jesus expressed
Speaker 2: a painful emotion through his words, through tears, through his
Speaker 2: body expressions, spiritual power showed up quickly. After that, he
Speaker 2: cried at Lazarusum and he raised them from the dead.
Speaker 2: He flipped tables at the temple with anger, and then
Speaker 2: he healed people from diseases, rying in Goosemite begging God
Speaker 2: to let him off the hook, and then walks out
Speaker 2: of Goodsemite and says, I am he and soldiers are
Speaker 2: knocked off their feet by the power of his voice.
Speaker 2: So every time Jesus allowed his emotional pain to flow
Speaker 2: out of him, spiritual power followed. And so there's a
Speaker 2: connection between my emotion and my spirit. And if we
Speaker 2: would stop trying not to break down, we might have
Speaker 2: more breaking through.
Speaker 1: Come on, Okay, wait now, in this interview, you have
Speaker 1: vacillated between therapists and co and a powerhouse preacher.
Speaker 2: Y'all.
Speaker 1: She preaches across this world, and some recent sermons have
Speaker 1: been at the Potter's house. I want to know how
Speaker 1: has that been or as far as seeing churches people
Speaker 1: of faith embrace mental health being talked about in the pulpit.
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna start crying, but I could. It is
Speaker 2: everything because my sister might be alive if we had this.
Speaker 2: And I asked God to give me the chance to
Speaker 2: be a voice in this movement, and why he said yes,
Speaker 2: I don't know, but I'm so grateful that this is
Speaker 2: the message, these are the sermons, This is the book
Speaker 2: that my family needed. Yeah, and every other family can
Speaker 2: now have. It's not just about illness. It's about how
Speaker 2: to be well. It's about how to live your spiritual
Speaker 2: life in full power with your heart and your mind
Speaker 2: and your body. It's everything we were created to be.
Speaker 2: This is the definition of an abundant life, god suitful garden. Yes,
Speaker 2: I'm so grateful to have been a part of this
Speaker 2: shift in the body of Christ. It means everything to me.
Speaker 1: Well, we certainly thank you so much for your yes.
Speaker 1: People don't understand the cost just saying yes, you know
Speaker 1: there is a cost.
Speaker 2: Yes, there is a cost.
Speaker 1: To living in purpose. I was, you know, thinking this morning.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I was having an out of
Speaker 1: body experience, a grad I don't know what it was,
Speaker 1: but I was like, I am a living being, walking
Speaker 1: and sharing, and I think I was getting fearful of assignment.
Speaker 1: But so much breakthrough is attached to when we are
Speaker 1: walking in purpose and doing what God wants us to
Speaker 1: do and speaking of purpose and walking and talking and teaching.
Speaker 1: You will be at the Woman Evolve conference this year.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so excited. We're just move September fourteenth or sixteenth.
Speaker 2: It's going to be incredible.
Speaker 1: We are excited. And the com conference is kind of
Speaker 1: on the eve or the week of your book release,
Speaker 1: and we are so excited. I'm going to be their honey,
Speaker 1: oh yay bells, bring in. My older sister is gonna
Speaker 1: come with me, And I'm so excited. I'm just so excited, y'all.
Speaker 1: Please please please the garden within. Yes, there are people
Speaker 1: who have inflicted pain on us and I've heard the
Speaker 1: same over and over and over again. We're not responsible
Speaker 1: for that, but we are responsible for the healing part.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, we're not responsible for what happened to us,
Speaker 2: but we're responsible for healing.
Speaker 1: Are responsible.
Speaker 2: No one's going to do it but you. No one
Speaker 2: can do it for you, but you.
Speaker 1: You say, your most powerful life begins, y'all, Your most
Speaker 1: powerful life can begin when we do the hard work.
Speaker 1: Somebody said, choose your heart.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, choose your heart. And now do.
Speaker 1: You want to live in healing or continually in the
Speaker 1: fruit of dysfunction? That's hard, That's got to be hard.
Speaker 1: I refuse, Yeah, I refuse. Well, sister, I'm excited. I'm
Speaker 1: excited y'all. The book The Garden Within, where the war
Speaker 1: with your emotions ends in your most powerful life begins. You, guys,
Speaker 1: I promise you you want to get the book. There
Speaker 1: are just certain details I'm not sharing because I want
Speaker 1: y'all to read it. And y'all have been good about
Speaker 1: your pre orders. You guys send us DMS or all
Speaker 1: kind of messages holding up your book saying you got
Speaker 1: the book because of checking in. You've got the book.
Speaker 1: So let it be that. Because of checking in. We
Speaker 1: are going to add to those numbers. She didn't ask
Speaker 1: me to say this, but this message has to be.
Speaker 1: This message has to get out there, authentic, fruitful and
Speaker 1: powerful doctor Phillips.
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: Wasn't this powerful, Doctor Nita Phillips is a force I
Speaker 1: hope you felt empowered. And we're so forceful with the
Speaker 1: healing topic because this is what she said off air.
Speaker 1: Sometimes you don't know how sick you've been until you
Speaker 1: get well. Sometimes you don't know how sick you've been
Speaker 1: until you get healed. And so I just encourage people
Speaker 1: do the work of healing. Cultivating environment in your home
Speaker 1: and on your job of safety, cultivating environment of healing.
Speaker 1: Maybe plants, good soothing music, even what we put in
Speaker 1: our bodies, drinking more water, you know, watching the conversations
Speaker 1: that we have with people, Do people bring you life
Speaker 1: or do they bring you mess? Do people bring you
Speaker 1: life or do they bring just anxiety and foolishness and shenanigans. Yes,
Speaker 1: we love a good key key. Now I'm not saying
Speaker 1: not to key key with your friends. But if the
Speaker 1: majority of the conversations are not life giving, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think, check your surroundings, check your surroundings. I want
Speaker 1: every listener of Checking In to have amazing testimonies about
Speaker 1: their healing journeys. You know what I mean. And if
Speaker 1: you have never dealt with trauma, abuse, betrayal, neglect, abandonment,
Speaker 1: broken relationships, you probably won't understand. And that's okay. I
Speaker 1: love that testimony for you too. You know, there are
Speaker 1: some people who could say, honestly have had be beautiful
Speaker 1: childhood's parents who were able to love on you because
Speaker 1: of the love that maybe they received from their parents
Speaker 1: or the love that they get from God that continuously
Speaker 1: fills them up. And that's what I want for all
Speaker 1: of us. Maybe you didn't get the love from both
Speaker 1: of your parents growing up, but press into the one
Speaker 1: and only God who can fill you up with his love.
Speaker 1: Because once you get filled up with love, then that
Speaker 1: is what you will give to other people. Is love,
Speaker 1: all right, That's what God is. God is love. I'm
Speaker 1: so thankful for y'all. I'm so thankful for this journey
Speaker 1: with all of you. Guys. Again, make sure you get
Speaker 1: doctor Anita Phillips's new book. I'm really excited about it.
Speaker 1: I got the pleasure of writing an endorsement for her book,
Speaker 1: and Sarah Jakes Roberts has done the forwards to her books.
Speaker 1: So I'm excited to be in a good company. All right, Okay, everybody,
Speaker 1: I love of you, Bye bye. Checking In with Michelle
Speaker 1: Williams is a production of iHeartRadio and The Black Effect.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast,
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.