1 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals is a production of I Heart Radio and 2 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:13,239 Speaker 1: Grim and Mild Some Aaron Manky, go Tellahu talk to 3 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: you tonight? Five General Food. Hello, here's your host Dall 4 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 1: to tell the crows call you? Why do one of 5 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: these beings? Right now? Let's meet our first team of challenge. 6 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: What is your name? Please? My name is Bonnie Hill. 7 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 1: My name is Barney Hill. My name is Bonnie Hill. 8 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: Let's start the questioning with Arson B and Arson Number two? 9 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: How tall were these humanoid creatures? Well? They were short 10 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: five nine or five ten at the most. Number three? 11 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: Did they speak English? Not in an actual speaking type voice? 12 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: It was something like thought transferred? Number one? What physical 13 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:09,320 Speaker 1: symptoms did you later? Notice? What's what's is tom? Number one? 14 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: Where you were alert when you were in the ship 15 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:16,320 Speaker 1: and awake? Uh? More like in a sim nabilistic states. 16 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:18,919 Speaker 1: Number two when they examined you, did they stick needles 17 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: in you? Not needles? Needle? Remember when did they stick 18 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:24,119 Speaker 1: a needle in Betty too? Yes, they stuck a needle 19 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: in Betty? Were they like our needles? Number one? I 20 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: didn't say the needle? Were they the same build as us? 21 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, how did they like have pointy 22 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 1: heads or something. No, they had large cranium and the 23 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: chin was very small, wouldn't you know it? That's all 24 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: the time we had, which we did have more fascinating story. 25 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: So mark a ballace, if you will please, without any consultation, 26 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,279 Speaker 1: and of course without changing once you have marked Tom. 27 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: For whom did you vote? I voted for number one, 28 00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: but I couldn't tell anything from the stories that they 29 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: each told. But he looked like the kind of man 30 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: who would have binoculars handy in his car, Beggy Cat. 31 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:09,839 Speaker 1: I voted for number one because they had big kids 32 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: in me seating chins and wouldn't you know it's arsen 33 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: I think that there's two great liars up there. And 34 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: I had no way of judging except that the whole 35 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: thing took place around New England. And when I asked 36 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: Number one about the warts, he said watch they had watched. 37 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: And I'm from New England too, and I noticed watches, watches, 38 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: watch votes are all in mind's made up, as you heard, 39 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:34,359 Speaker 1: and all let's find out which one of these three 40 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 1: gentlemen in truth is Barney Hill. Well, the real Barney Hill, 41 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: please stand up on this episode of To Tell the Truth, 42 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: the panelists were able to identify number one as the 43 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: real Barney Hill, and both here and elsewhere, he was 44 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: telling the truth as he saw it, but some of 45 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: this truth involved memories that were revealed during his hypnosis 46 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: sessions with Dr Benjamin Simon. This brings up an important 47 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: question in evaluating the Hills experience. How much can you 48 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: rely on memories recovered through hypnotic regression? Simply put, is 49 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 1: hypnosis a reliable tool for bringing back memories? I'm Toby 50 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: Ball and this is Strange Arrivals Episode five regressed Betty 51 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: and Barney underwent their hypnosis treatment with Dr Benjamin Simon. 52 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: We now have a much better understanding of how hypnosis works. 53 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: Hosted the Skeptic Podcast Bryan Dunning. So this is actually 54 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: what originally got me into this because I was working 55 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: on another subject at the time, which was the whole 56 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: topic of hypnotic regression in general. And these recovered memories 57 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 1: and the Betty Varney Hill story is kind of a 58 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: classic example of what we think of as these recovered 59 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: memories under hypnosis. It's now no longer the nineteen sixties, 60 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: it's now the two thousand teens, and we now have 61 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: very solid evidence that there is no such thing as 62 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: hypnotic regression or recovered repressed memories. That's just simply not 63 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 1: a part of psychology. That body of evidence is extraordinarily robust. 64 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: We see things like a court cases being overturned and 65 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: stuff based on kind of the modern science of hypnosis 66 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:59,599 Speaker 1: and psychology. Hypnotic regression came to the public attention in 67 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: the nine teen eighties and nineties. At this time, some 68 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 1: psychiatric professionals were working with patients, often children, to quote 69 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 1: unquote recover memories of sexual abuse. One outcome of this 70 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: movement was a rash of claims that sexual abuse rituals 71 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: were being organized by groups of Satanists. The so called 72 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:25,559 Speaker 1: Satanic panic was eventually fully discredited and hypnotic regression along 73 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: with it. Author freelance writer and skeptical investigator Robert Schaffer, 74 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,359 Speaker 1: and this whole business about recovered memories. If you recall 75 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:40,919 Speaker 1: back in the late eighties and early nineties, it was 76 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:46,720 Speaker 1: a big thing to hypnotize people that allegedly repressed memories 77 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 1: of sexual abuse, usually or some other trauma, but for 78 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: the most party, it was sexual abuse, and it was 79 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: there was just a huge controversy over this, so many people, 80 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: you know, we're claiming to have recovered such memories, either 81 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: with or without hypnosis. And when somebody you know, claimed 82 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 1: to recover this, they had, you know, there were support groups. 83 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,160 Speaker 1: It was a big thing. Innocent people got accused of 84 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: terrible crimes based only on so called recovered memories, and 85 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: the whole thing. Again, it's a very sad chapter. It's 86 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: a very embarrassing chapter. Nobody in serious academia today takes 87 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: any of this, you know, recovered memories as as anything 88 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: more than likely a fantasy. It's it's possible that maybe 89 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: some of it might be true, or somebody remembers something, 90 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:47,279 Speaker 1: but again there's just no way to tell. I don't 91 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 1: do hypnosis with people, but I have studied the literature 92 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 1: on hypnotically refreshed memories. This is Elizabeth Loftis. I am 93 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:00,919 Speaker 1: a professor at the University of California the Irvine, the 94 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: Irvine Campus. She's also one of the foremost experts on 95 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: human memory. One of the things that you can say 96 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: about hypnosis it it might be helpful to somebody who 97 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: wants to try to use it to lose weight or 98 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: stop smoking or be less anxious, But when it comes 99 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: to using hypnosis to try to to dig up allegedly 100 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: buried trauma memories. That's when you've got to be really, 101 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: really careful, because under the influence of hypnosis, especially if 102 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: you're highly hypnotize herbal you are even more susceptible to 103 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: contamination and distortion. And then when you produce something in 104 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: this hypnotic state, you have a tendency to believe, well, 105 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: if I thought about it under hypnosis, it must have 106 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: really happened to you become even more confident about it, 107 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 1: whether it's true or not. Did you catch the part 108 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: where Dr Loftis said that people who are easily hypnotized 109 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: are also highly suggestible. In nineties sixty four, when Dr 110 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: Simon conducted his sessions with the Hills, this connection was unknown. 111 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: In an undated document in the University of New Hampshire 112 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 1: Special Archives titled Hypnosis Betty basically braggs about how hypnotizable 113 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: she and Barney were. She writes at the end of 114 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: the sessions, Dr Simon said that both of us were 115 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: very good subjects who were able to reach a very 116 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: deep trance quickly and easily. The depth of our trances 117 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: was unusual, a level where only one person out of 118 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: millions might be able to reach the fact that both 119 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: of us were able to do this was outstanding that 120 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: we were two out of millions with the abilities to 121 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: do this. Even if we allow for some hyperbole, we 122 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: have it from Betty that Dr Simon considered them good subjects. 123 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 1: We now know this would also make them highly suggestible. 124 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: This is not to say that Dr Simon planted memories 125 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,199 Speaker 1: during these hypnosi successions. He was an experienced and a 126 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 1: highly respected psychiatrist, but it does raise the possibility that 127 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: they weren't necessarily remembering actual events. Do you remember in 128 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: the first episode we heard some audio from one of 129 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: Barney's hypnos secessions. What struck me was how emotional Barney 130 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 1: became when he described seeing the aliens looking at him 131 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 1: from the windows of the UFO. I'm thinking my head away, 132 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:56,199 Speaker 1: God give all right, yes, God gotta get away. Oh oh, alright, 133 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: I'm getting way. Would someone under hypnosis react with such 134 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 1: strong emotion to something that never actually happened? Just at 135 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: an intuitive level, it seems as though a false memory 136 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 1: wouldn't create that kind of dramatic fear response. Again, Elizabeth 137 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 1: loftus one of the questions that researchers have wondered about 138 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: is whether people would be emotional about false memories the 139 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: way they can sometimes be emotional about true memories. And 140 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 1: the psychologist psychology professor Richard McNally has actually studied the 141 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:42,079 Speaker 1: emotional reactions of people who believe they were abducted by aliens. 142 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 1: And what he has found and shown in a beautiful 143 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 1: study is that when people are thinking about their abduction experiences, 144 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: they are highly emotional. You measure their heart rate or 145 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: their their skin resistance or those physiological measures. They are 146 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: as aroused and upset when they think about these experiences 147 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: as other people are when they're thinking about truly traumatic 148 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: experiences that have happened to them. And so mcnali concludes, 149 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: and I would concur based on some work that I've done, 150 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: that emotional reaction is certainly no guarantee of authenticity, that 151 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: people can be very emotional about false memories. Our current 152 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: understanding of hypnosis and recovered memories is far more skeptical 153 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:35,440 Speaker 1: than it was in We know now that hypnosis is 154 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 1: not a tool by which people can recall the exact 155 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: details of past events. We also know that so called 156 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:45,559 Speaker 1: repressed memories are not reliable part of this has to 157 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: do with how hypnosis works, but it also has to 158 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: do with how memory itself is constructed and then retrieved. 159 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 1: We like to say that memory doesn't work like a 160 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: recording device, like a video recorder. You don't just red 161 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,559 Speaker 1: or did and play it back. The process is much 162 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 1: more complex and actually when we are remembering, we're essentially 163 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:11,079 Speaker 1: constructing or reconstructing the experience, and that means we are 164 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: taking bits and pieces of information, sometimes acquired at different 165 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:19,559 Speaker 1: times and places, and bringing it together to construct what 166 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: what feels like a memory, because that's what it feels like, 167 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: right that you are remembering things as they actually happened, 168 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: But you aren't. Your memories are the product of a 169 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: number of factors, which include the reality of what happened, 170 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:41,599 Speaker 1: but other things as well, memories of far more or 171 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:45,199 Speaker 1: I should say, remembering is a far more active process. 172 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 1: This is Dr Mark Kenn, principal lecturer at the University 173 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: of New Hampshire, among others. He's had a course on 174 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:58,199 Speaker 1: paranormal and other extraordinary beliefs. Every time you're telling that story, 175 00:12:58,240 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: as you're saying, if you've told it a hundred times, 176 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 1: the hundredth time you're telling it. You're remembering the ninety 177 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: nine time you told it. In the ninety time, you're 178 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 1: remembering the time you told it. And so we have 179 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 1: a several biases in there. We we have a bias 180 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: that makes us more the focus of the story, so 181 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: the things that happened to us are more prominent. We 182 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: have a bias that puts the memories in line with 183 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 1: what we believe about ourselves now. So even if we 184 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: have changed tremendously since that time, that story is going 185 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 1: to fit who we are now. There's a number of 186 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: other ones that stories tend to, as you say, streamline 187 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: and fit a storyline better than the fragmented way that 188 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: we might remember it initially. But there's a lot of time. 189 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: I mean, people remember things that they can't possibly have remembered. 190 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: They remember things that in fact did not happen. My 191 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: brother remembered stories about being born. He didn't. He remembered 192 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: people telling him stories about that. Trying often we will, 193 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: we will remember something as having happened to us when well, wait, no, 194 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 1: we heard about that from somebody else. It's just that 195 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: we imagined it so vividly that it became part of 196 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: our own autobiographical memory. People will remember something happened, and 197 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: in fact it was a TV show. The function of 198 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: memory is to be able to have stuff that happened 199 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: at time one help us at time too. There's absolutely 200 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: nothing about that that means it has to be accurate. 201 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: And in fact, if biases are going to help us 202 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: learn from the stuff that happened back then, to condense it, 203 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: to make it simple so that we can react more quickly, 204 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: then they're very useful, uh, to be able to say, oh, 205 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 1: instead of there's all this this, this weirdness and random 206 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: stuff that's happening back there, so I don't quite know 207 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: how to make use of it. Nope, there's a story 208 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: in it. Boom, I can make use of it now. 209 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: Strange arrivals will return in a moment. It's a difficult 210 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: thing to contemplate that memories that seem so real, so vivid, 211 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 1: are not necessarily what happened. There are mental recreations that 212 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: change over time due to a number of factors, new 213 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 1: perceptions about oneself, incorrect details that found their way into 214 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 1: the last time you told the story, and the instinct 215 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: to create a narrative out of the fragments from which 216 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: memories created. Memories can be vivid, but that does not 217 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: equate to being accurate. And there's another thing. Memories can 218 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 1: be influenced, altered, or even made up by external sources 219 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: after the fact. That is, memory is not only fairly unreliable, 220 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 1: but it is also easily corrupted. What we have shown 221 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: is out there in the real world, well, we're exposed 222 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: to misinformation. I don't know you could even say frequently. 223 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 1: We get misinformation when we talk to other people, or 224 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 1: when we overhear other witnesses being interviewed, or what when 225 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: we're asked a suggestive or leading questions by somebody who's 226 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: interrogating us. When we are exupposed to media coverage about 227 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: some event that we might have experienced. All of these 228 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: provide an opportunity for new information to become available to 229 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: a witness and to potentially produce a contamination of distortion 230 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 1: in the witnesses memory. I asked Dr loftis how malleable 231 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: people's memories really are. One of the things that I 232 00:16:54,680 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: and my collaborators have done is to expose people two events, 233 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 1: maybe a simulated crime or accident, and then we feed 234 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 1: them some misinformation about the event, and we look to 235 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 1: see the extent at which they will accept this misinformation 236 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: and it will alter or transform their memory. And so 237 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: we have found that you can show people an accident, 238 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:25,159 Speaker 1: for example, where a car goes to a yield sign, 239 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: and you can feed the misinformation that it was a 240 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: stop sign, and many people will claim that what they 241 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: actually saw was the stop sign. They fall for the 242 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 1: misinformation and it in essence becomes their memory. That's one 243 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: type of study that we have done showing that it's 244 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 1: pretty easy to change people's memories for the details of 245 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:54,120 Speaker 1: events that they actually did experience. Details can be altered, 246 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 1: I asked Dr loftis entirely new details could be created 247 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 1: from suggestion? Can you lead someone to believe in something 248 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: that wasn't there or didn't happen? You can add objects 249 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:12,639 Speaker 1: to memory. We've added objects to the memories of soldiers 250 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: who were being interrogated. We made them believe they saw 251 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: telephones or weapons in interrogation rooms when they didn't exist. 252 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: All through suggestive supplying of new information after some event 253 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 1: is over keep this concept in mind that through suggestive 254 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,399 Speaker 1: supplying of new information, you can make people believe that 255 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 1: they are remembering things that weren't there or didn't happen. 256 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: I talked to al Jundra Rojas, the host of Open 257 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:49,400 Speaker 1: minds UFO Radio. He also writes about UFOs and the paranormal. 258 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 1: You know my attempt, and luckily, I think making my 259 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: credits will agree I'm pretty good at it. Is that 260 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 1: I try to take a journalistic approach, so I try 261 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 1: to cover all sides and give all the facts available 262 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 1: so people have more of an unbiased kind of overview 263 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: of the phenomena or whatever it is that topic that 264 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 1: I'm covering in this arena. Here he talks about Betty 265 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 1: and Barney and the stories they told while under hypnosis. 266 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 1: You know, these two individuals under hypnosis and by you know, 267 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,719 Speaker 1: I believe a credible hypnotist who wasn't really you know, 268 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: trying to guide them. They had very similar stories, even 269 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: though they were regressed separately. I think that's the most 270 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 1: compelling piece as far as evidence goes. This is the 271 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: other mystery about the Hills hypnosis sessions. If you are 272 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: a skeptic, how do you account for Betty and Barney 273 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:52,479 Speaker 1: separately telling essentially the same story. Dr Simon went so 274 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 1: far as to have them forget what they disclosed so 275 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: they could not talk to each other about them between 276 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 1: the weekly sessions. So we put, if the abduction didn't happen, 277 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: how could their memories of it be so similar. This 278 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:10,880 Speaker 1: is Robert Schaeffer, followed by Brian Dunning. The whole idea 279 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 1: of you know, this alien contact and being stopped and 280 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: so on, that idea was not there originally. That's in 281 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,120 Speaker 1: the hypnosis part of the story. What happened was they 282 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 1: met with the number, talked with a number of upologists. 283 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:25,400 Speaker 1: They loved to tell the story. Betty loved to tell 284 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: the story to people who wanted to listen to her 285 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: about what she saw. And at that point it was 286 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 1: a UFO sighting. It wasn't an abduction or or or 287 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,679 Speaker 1: an alien encounter. And it was only after then she 288 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 1: started to have these dreams in her dream she was abducted. 289 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,479 Speaker 1: She did meet up with aliens, and she told her 290 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 1: dreams to people, and then somebody suggested, well, maybe it 291 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 1: wasn't a dream, maybe it really happened. And so then 292 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 1: when later when they went to doctor Simon, and really 293 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 1: the reason that both of them went to see Dr 294 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: Simon was they were having especially Barney was was very nervous. 295 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: He was having trouble sleeping, he was having ulcers. Frankly, 296 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:09,360 Speaker 1: he was in quite a state, and so then Dr 297 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:15,160 Speaker 1: Simon hypnotized both of them. I think the most significant 298 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: point about it is that this hypnotic regression didn't happen 299 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: for almost two and a half years after the supposed event, 300 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:25,439 Speaker 1: and a lot of people don't realize that. A lot 301 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:27,360 Speaker 1: of people think, oh, they went in the next day 302 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 1: and had their hypnosis and told the same story in 303 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 1: these separate rooms where they hadn't had time to corroborate 304 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: and get their stories straight. That's not the case at all. 305 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: So for more than two years, Betty had been writing 306 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:43,679 Speaker 1: down this version of her story in tremendous detail, writing 307 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: and rewriting and editing it, telling it to Barney over 308 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: and over and over again. Is it any surprised that 309 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: their stories were similar once they went under hypnosis. Once 310 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:56,160 Speaker 1: you get to that part of it and you see, 311 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, there goes the whole hypnos just part 312 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 1: of the story. Just there's nothing interesting or surprising about 313 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: it at all. Anymore, the question becomes did Betty tell 314 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: Barney about her dreams? If so, this would explain why 315 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: their stories were essentially two perspectives on the same narrative. 316 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 1: This came up during the March hypnosis session when Dr 317 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,199 Speaker 1: Simon questioned Barney about the basis for his tale of 318 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: alien abduction. This is from the transcript of that session 319 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: as read by actors. Somebody told you about this before 320 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:39,440 Speaker 1: that in some way? Who was that? Betty? My wife? Yeah? 321 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: And how did she tell you about it? She would 322 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,919 Speaker 1: say that she had a dream, and that a dream 323 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 1: was that she had been taken aboard a UFO, and 324 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: that I was also in a dream, I was taken 325 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 1: a boat. Yeah, but you told me that she didn't 326 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: speak to you about this. How did she tell you this? 327 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: She would tell me this from usually when someone would 328 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: ask us about our sighting of a UFO, and then 329 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: she would mention this, and I just told her it 330 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:13,199 Speaker 1: was a dream and nothing to get alarmed about. Did 331 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: she tell you all of the details? Can you tell 332 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 1: me all of the details of what happened to her? 333 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: She would tell me a great many of the details 334 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: of her dreams, but she was not certain to the 335 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: location where we had stopped. And she would tell me 336 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: she had gone into this UFO and had talked with 337 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 1: the people there on board and she was told she 338 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: would forget in her dreams, she would forget about this, 339 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:48,159 Speaker 1: and she said she would tell me that she was 340 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: determined that she would not forget. That she told these 341 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: people in this UFO that she would not forget. And 342 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 1: this is the way she would tell me of her dreams. 343 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: And I told her they were only dreams, and that 344 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,959 Speaker 1: I can't believe whatever these dreams are that she is having, 345 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: only that she is having nightmares if they are frightening, 346 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: and she said, no, they are not frightening. It's just 347 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: that she feels that somehow there is some connection between 348 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 1: her dreams, because she never dreamed of UFOs before. And 349 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:33,439 Speaker 1: she would tell me that they had stuck something in 350 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: her navel, causing great pain, and that just the wave 351 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 1: of the hand, this pain disappeared. And she was not 352 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: telling this to me, but I would be present while 353 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 1: she was telling it to friends of ours, or to 354 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: Walter Webb. Whenever we would see him, he would ask 355 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,199 Speaker 1: us about the UFO sighting that we had had. In 356 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 1: then I would hear of dreams. But never did she 357 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: tell this actually to me. Dr Simon himself endorsed the 358 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 1: theory that Barney had been influenced by Betty's dreams, and 359 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 1: that those dreams were the basis for both of their 360 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: quote unquote memories recovered through hypnosis. And in October letter 361 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 1: to the prominent UFO researcher Philip Class, Dr Simon writes 362 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 1: the UFO was a citing the abduction did not take place, 363 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: but was a reproduction of Betty's dream which occurred right 364 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 1: after the sighting. This was her expression of anxiety. Is 365 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 1: contrasted to Barney's more psychosomatic one. Of course, Dr Simon's 366 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: opinion is just that an opinion. It is an evidence, 367 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 1: and just as our understanding of memory and hypnosis has changed, 368 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: the concept of alien abduction was unknown at the time. 369 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 1: UFO researcher and physicist Stanton Friedman believes that it was 370 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: the unprecedented nature of the Hills experience that led Dr 371 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: Simon to discount it. There's no question that Dr Simon 372 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:08,199 Speaker 1: was skeptical of the notion of alien visitors. Everybody was. 373 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:13,159 Speaker 1: You know, we're talking in the sixties, long before we 374 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 1: had gone in the moon, long before we operated nuclear 375 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 1: rocket engines, for example. On the ground, there wasn't a 376 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: body of data which would lead most people to think 377 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 1: that this kind of thing could happen. That may be true, 378 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 1: but what we know about regression hypnosis makes Benny and 379 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: Barney's abduction seem unlikely. Absent other evidence, the hypnotically recalled 380 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 1: stories really don't prove anything, and we've already seen how 381 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: the alien symbols and the star map have at best 382 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:50,160 Speaker 1: questionable value as proof. We'll talk about the physical evidence 383 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: torn dress, scuff shoes, and so on in a later episode. 384 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,959 Speaker 1: Even in Dr Simon realized that they might very well 385 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 1: be talking about Betty dreams and not a real event. 386 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 1: Where did the line blur between reality and nightmare? Next 387 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:18,919 Speaker 1: time on Strange Arrivals. Strange Arrivals is a production of 388 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Mankey. 389 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: This episode was written and hosted by Toby Bowl and 390 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 1: produced by Miranda Hawkins and Josh Thane, with executive producers 391 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: Alex Williams, Matt Frederick, and Aaron Manky. Betty Hill was 392 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 1: portrayed by Gina Rickikey. Barney Hill was portrayed by Jason Williams. 393 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,679 Speaker 1: Special thanks to the Milns Special Collections and Archives at 394 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 1: the University of New Hampshire. John Horrigan w y A. M. 395 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 1: In Norwich, Connecticut, John White and David O'Leary, the executive 396 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: producer of the History Channel's dramatic series Project blue Book. 397 00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 1: Learn more about the show over at grimm and mil 398 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 1: dot com. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 399 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.