1
00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:02,880
Speaker 1: Col Zone Media.

2
00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:05,720
Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

3
00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:09,440
Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

4
00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:12,720
Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

5
00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:16,480
Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

6
00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:19,040
Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

7
00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,000
Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

8
00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:22,759
Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

9
00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:25,560
Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

10
00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,640
Speaker 3: This is it could happen here, I show about things

11
00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:35,559
Speaker 3: falling apart. I'm Garrison Davis. I'm joined by Robert Evans

12
00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:38,839
Speaker 3: to discuss the Prairie Land trial.

13
00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:41,680
Speaker 2: Yay.

14
00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:46,000
Speaker 3: This month, the Trump administration got their first conviction in

15
00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:51,800
Speaker 3: an Antifa terrorism case. On Friday, March thirteenth, eight people

16
00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:55,080
Speaker 3: were convicted by a federal jury on charges of riot,

17
00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:59,480
Speaker 3: conspiracy to use and carry an explosive, and providing material

18
00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,600
Speaker 3: support to terrorists. One of the defendants was convicted of

19
00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:07,520
Speaker 3: attempted murder of a police officer, and another person was

20
00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:11,440
Speaker 3: convicted on two counts of concealing documents, bringing the total

21
00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:16,280
Speaker 3: number of federal defendants to nine. Originally, this federal case

22
00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:20,480
Speaker 3: had way more defendants, but last year seven of them

23
00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:24,800
Speaker 3: pleaded guilty to providing material support terrorists, four of whom

24
00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:29,160
Speaker 3: were later called to testify for the prosecution during the trial.

25
00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,240
Speaker 2: Have they gotten sentenced yet the folks who pled.

26
00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:35,000
Speaker 3: Out, No, They are going to be sentenced later this summer,

27
00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:36,960
Speaker 3: along with all of the defendants that were convicted.

28
00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:39,399
Speaker 4: Gotcha, though their sentence will.

29
00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:44,480
Speaker 3: Be a maximum of fifteen years, which is shorter than

30
00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:46,080
Speaker 3: the defendants who were convicted.

31
00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:46,600
Speaker 5: Yeah.

32
00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, The Prairie Line Defendants Support Committee did ask me

33
00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:56,640
Speaker 3: to read their names. The defendants are inns Soto, Liz Soto,

34
00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:02,000
Speaker 3: Savannah Batten, meg and Morris, Autumn Hill, Mari Ruida, Benjamin

35
00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:08,000
Speaker 3: Song or b Song, Zachary Evitz, and des Estrada. The

36
00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:10,880
Speaker 3: prosecution tried to argue that this was a coordinated attack

37
00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:14,200
Speaker 3: on an ice facility in Prairie Land, Texas, while the

38
00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:17,760
Speaker 3: defense argued this was a noise demonstration protest outside of

39
00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:21,520
Speaker 3: this detention facility last summer. On the night of July fourth,

40
00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:27,000
Speaker 3: after protesters through fireworks and vandalized property, DJs personnel called

41
00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:31,200
Speaker 3: local police for assistance. One officer arrived, drew his handgun

42
00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:33,320
Speaker 3: and yelled stop at a person in all black clothes

43
00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:36,880
Speaker 3: who was running away. One of the defendants, b Song,

44
00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:41,360
Speaker 3: then yelled get to the rifles before firing toward the

45
00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:43,760
Speaker 3: officer with an Air fifteen, hitting him in the neck.

46
00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:47,720
Speaker 3: Song fired eleven times. The officer returned fire three times.

47
00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,520
Speaker 3: Song then fled the scene. Most of the defendants were

48
00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,760
Speaker 3: arrested in the days after the attacks, some that night

49
00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:58,480
Speaker 3: near the facility, though Song camped out, hiding in the

50
00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:02,280
Speaker 3: woods overnight and evaded care for eleven days with the

51
00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,280
Speaker 3: help of others. Many of those who assisted Song of

52
00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:09,200
Speaker 3: ad capture after the shooting pledg guilty to providing material

53
00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:13,720
Speaker 3: support to terrorists. On the first day of this trial,

54
00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:17,360
Speaker 3: the judge declared a mistrial because one of the defense

55
00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:21,680
Speaker 3: attorneys wore a shirt featuring civil rights leaders. A week

56
00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:26,240
Speaker 3: into the trial, US District Court Judge Mark Pittman ruled

57
00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:29,679
Speaker 3: that defense attorneys could not argue that the defendants, including

58
00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,120
Speaker 3: the accused shooter, were acting in self defense or the

59
00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:37,240
Speaker 3: defense of others against unlawful force just because the officer

60
00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:41,240
Speaker 3: had already drawn his handgun before Song fired. The prosecutors

61
00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:46,280
Speaker 3: compared this to Waco, and Judge Pittman ruled that the

62
00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,800
Speaker 3: officer drawing and pointing his handgun at a fleeing suspect

63
00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,280
Speaker 3: does not qualify as quote excessive as a matter of

64
00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:57,400
Speaker 3: law because the officer did not actually use deadly force

65
00:03:57,560 --> 00:03:58,440
Speaker 3: or shoot first.

66
00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense. Like if this were a civilian

67
00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:07,040
Speaker 2: on civilian situation, the fact that he had drawn his gun,

68
00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:10,720
Speaker 2: especially in Texas, would have been enough to at least

69
00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:15,280
Speaker 2: argue self defense. But absolutely, police officers have the right

70
00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:17,560
Speaker 2: to pull guns on whoever they want, whenever they want

71
00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:19,520
Speaker 2: pretty much, so yeah, yep.

72
00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:20,320
Speaker 5: Cool.

73
00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:25,240
Speaker 3: In court, the government argued that, based on the situation

74
00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:29,160
Speaker 3: at the protest, that it was reasonable for the officer

75
00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:33,040
Speaker 3: to decide to draw his handgun because there was crimes

76
00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,159
Speaker 3: being committed to property damage the fireworks, even if he

77
00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:40,520
Speaker 3: did not witness fireworks as he pulled up to the scene. Now,

78
00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:46,400
Speaker 3: headlines have framed this story as protesters being convicted of

79
00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:51,719
Speaker 3: terrorism for wearing black clothes or possessing radical political writing

80
00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,599
Speaker 3: also known as zines. There is like a kernel of

81
00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:59,280
Speaker 3: truth to these statements, but they're designed to serve primarily

82
00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:03,320
Speaker 3: as clickbait rather than useful information. So let's take a

83
00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:08,240
Speaker 3: closer look at these claims. Sure, let's start by getting

84
00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:12,359
Speaker 3: into the action planning so this action was originally planned

85
00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,520
Speaker 3: on the encrypted messaging app Signal, primarily in a group

86
00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,840
Speaker 3: chat called fourth of July Party Okay. The plan was

87
00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:24,200
Speaker 3: also discussed during an in person meeting the day before

88
00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,640
Speaker 3: the action, referred to during the trial as a gear check.

89
00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:32,080
Speaker 3: Participense in the planning chat agreed to where black block

90
00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,560
Speaker 3: and bring armor and rifles. Song advertised the action in

91
00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:39,080
Speaker 3: a larger group chat of dozens of quote unquote trusted individuals.

92
00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:42,400
Speaker 3: The event was characterized in this chat as a low

93
00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:46,880
Speaker 3: risk noise demonstration involving fireworks. A flyer was sent to

94
00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,400
Speaker 3: this larger chat, reading share with trusted folks only, do

95
00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:54,680
Speaker 3: not post mask up, be loud on quote. According to

96
00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:58,760
Speaker 3: cooperating witness Susan Kent, in the fourth of July Party

97
00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:02,640
Speaker 3: Signal chat, when asked about bringing guns, Songs stated, I'm

98
00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:04,120
Speaker 3: not going back to prison.

99
00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,760
Speaker 4: I'm not going to jail. I'm bringing guns unquote.

100
00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:11,560
Speaker 2: Okay, that's a terrible thing to have in writing, boy,

101
00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:13,159
Speaker 2: okay great.

102
00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,520
Speaker 3: This sentiment was also expressed at the gear check meeting

103
00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:21,120
Speaker 3: on July third, where the Fundans discussed bringing guns, and

104
00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,400
Speaker 3: Song repeatedly stated that they would be bringing guns because

105
00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:29,039
Speaker 3: he would not be quote unquote going to jail. They

106
00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,559
Speaker 3: talked about guns as a deterrent. Yeah, they talked about

107
00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:38,080
Speaker 3: how in previous instances the presence of guns deterred police

108
00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:43,120
Speaker 3: from engaging with protesters. And this is how the presence

109
00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:45,919
Speaker 3: of guns at the protest was largely framed in these

110
00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:49,679
Speaker 3: meetings and chats. It does not look good in writing

111
00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:50,760
Speaker 3: in a court case though.

112
00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:53,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is what the Elm Fork John Brown

113
00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:56,280
Speaker 2: Gun Club had done, like sweep defenses and stuff where

114
00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:57,280
Speaker 2: they'd shown up armed.

115
00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,000
Speaker 4: That incident was brought up. Yeah, that was specifically referenced.

116
00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:02,480
Speaker 2: It had in fact worked that way more or less.

117
00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:06,000
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a number of things to drill into here,

118
00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:08,640
Speaker 2: but one of the issues is just while that's a

119
00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,920
Speaker 2: thing people have used firearms for and have done so

120
00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:14,800
Speaker 2: in a way that worked in the past obviously, which

121
00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:17,520
Speaker 2: is what they were referencing, the problem is that you

122
00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,360
Speaker 2: can't ever lose sight of the fact that, like, a

123
00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:22,680
Speaker 2: gun is a gun, and if you're bringing a gun

124
00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:24,720
Speaker 2: into a situation.

125
00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:25,960
Speaker 4: There's potential for that gun to be used.

126
00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:28,440
Speaker 2: There's a potential for that gun to be used. And

127
00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:31,720
Speaker 2: if you're bringing that gun into a situation around a

128
00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:34,480
Speaker 2: police station. The odds that you will use that gun

129
00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,880
Speaker 2: in a way that is not going to cause a

130
00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:41,120
Speaker 2: life ruining legal nightmare for you and everyone else are

131
00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,080
Speaker 2: a lot lower. That's a real issue.

132
00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:44,680
Speaker 5: Yeah.

133
00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:46,320
Speaker 4: Also at this gear check.

134
00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:50,520
Speaker 3: On the third, song proposed to free detainees using quote

135
00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:54,880
Speaker 3: unquote suppressive fire. Oh my god, this idea was shut

136
00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:58,440
Speaker 3: down by other attendees, according to Susan Kent, who testified

137
00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:03,040
Speaker 3: after entering a guy plea. Kent testified that after looking

138
00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:06,240
Speaker 3: over photos of the facility, Song said, quote, this is

139
00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,000
Speaker 3: as easy as it's going to get. We can take

140
00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:13,360
Speaker 3: the place and free the people inside using quote unquote

141
00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:18,520
Speaker 3: suppressive fire. This idea was meant with quote unquote general disagreement,

142
00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:21,560
Speaker 3: according to Kent, Yeah, of course, also saying that it

143
00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:26,000
Speaker 3: was not seriously planned for or discussed the support committee

144
00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:29,840
Speaker 3: rights that. Kent also testified that the group quote discussed

145
00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,839
Speaker 3: stealing U hauls to move free detainees, but this did

146
00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:39,000
Speaker 3: not have popular support. Defendant Autumn Hill asked do we

147
00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:44,680
Speaker 3: bring our guns? Song replied, yes, I'm not getting arrested unquote.

148
00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:47,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, just a lot of really horrible things to have

149
00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:51,199
Speaker 2: read out in a courtroom. Just yep.

150
00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:56,120
Speaker 3: Cool, okay on Signal, song shared a YouTube short about

151
00:08:56,160 --> 00:09:01,400
Speaker 3: suppressive fire. Another defendant wrote that she didn't want to

152
00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:05,320
Speaker 3: quote unquote fed post Yeah. Someone else wrote that rifles

153
00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:09,440
Speaker 3: at the action may increase risk. Defendant Evitts sent a

154
00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:13,079
Speaker 3: timeline for the actions that day, writing things heat up

155
00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:18,080
Speaker 3: after sunset. Royeda wrote quote if people inside get rowdy,

156
00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:22,280
Speaker 3: people in this chat would be charged for conspiracy question mark.

157
00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:26,720
Speaker 3: And then after the fourth of July shooting, someone messaged, quote,

158
00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:30,960
Speaker 3: please delete signal chats. Chats still on phone even if

159
00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:36,040
Speaker 3: removed from groups unquote yeah. According to Support Committee notes,

160
00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:40,200
Speaker 3: some Signal messages were recovered from phones using Apple's internal

161
00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:44,360
Speaker 3: notification system, though even though Signal had been removed, incoming

162
00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:48,040
Speaker 3: messages were preserved in the internal memory on the phone.

163
00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,680
Speaker 3: Outgoing messages were not preserved because there's no notification system

164
00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:55,240
Speaker 3: for outgoing messages, and you can set your settings on

165
00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:58,040
Speaker 3: Signal to not display the message in notifications, and it

166
00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,040
Speaker 3: seems like that was not the case for these messages

167
00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,319
Speaker 3: that were taken from defendants phones.

168
00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is a known I mean, just the

169
00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:10,719
Speaker 2: fact that having notifications on with Signal as a privacy

170
00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:12,880
Speaker 2: issue has been known for a while but.

171
00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:18,959
Speaker 3: Yeah, two defendants, Liz Sojo and Savannah Batten, were neither

172
00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:24,040
Speaker 3: in planning chats nor attended the gear check. But all

173
00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:27,400
Speaker 3: the defendants who attended the protest did carpool together in

174
00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:31,959
Speaker 3: two vehicles and brought a total of eleven firearms, body armor,

175
00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,280
Speaker 3: individual first aid kits, and all these were presented as

176
00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:38,920
Speaker 3: government exhibits. I'm going to quote the Department of Justice

177
00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:40,040
Speaker 3: right up about this case.

178
00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:40,679
Speaker 4: Quote.

179
00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:45,280
Speaker 3: Evidence at trial revealed most of the ANTIFA cell involved

180
00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:48,760
Speaker 3: in the Prairie Line attack looked to Song as a leader.

181
00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,800
Speaker 3: Song acquired firearms that were distributed to co defendants and

182
00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:57,960
Speaker 3: recruited members that gun ranges and combat sessions that conducted unquote.

183
00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:01,920
Speaker 2: Yep I just as a general rule, like because the

184
00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:07,160
Speaker 2: potential consequences of having firearms in a protest are so high.

185
00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:11,600
Speaker 2: If you are showing up at a protest or organizing

186
00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:15,440
Speaker 2: one and people are talking about bringing them, it behooves

187
00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:18,840
Speaker 2: you to pay close attention to how they talk about them.

188
00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,680
Speaker 2: And if someone is talking about, for example, suppress a fire,

189
00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:27,840
Speaker 2: that's not something that is really relevant to a defensive

190
00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:31,400
Speaker 2: shooting in a legal situation, that's like a combat thing,

191
00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:35,720
Speaker 2: like very rarely do self defense shootings involve suppressing fire.

192
00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,400
Speaker 2: I just you have to be very very careful. Yeah,

193
00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:41,200
Speaker 2: And this is like a judgment thing. Like if you

194
00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,400
Speaker 2: hear people talking about guns who are going to be

195
00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,679
Speaker 2: bringing firearms to a protest or another event, and they

196
00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:49,520
Speaker 2: are talking in a way that sounds as if they

197
00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:52,440
Speaker 2: are like planning or eager to shoot it out with

198
00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:57,640
Speaker 2: the police or right wing count with anyone, that's a

199
00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:03,320
Speaker 2: thing to be very wary of. That's a real warning sign. Yeah,

200
00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:06,120
Speaker 2: that's a real red flag. Yeah, that's a real red flag.

201
00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:11,800
Speaker 3: The defense argued that when Song shot at the officer,

202
00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,360
Speaker 3: Song was using suppressive fire, claiming that Song aimed for

203
00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:18,960
Speaker 3: the ground and the officer was perhaps struck by a ricochet.

204
00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:21,200
Speaker 4: We don't know if that is true.

205
00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,959
Speaker 3: No, And there really is no legal precedent no arguing

206
00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:28,640
Speaker 3: suppressive fire in this way.

207
00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:29,920
Speaker 2: In a self defense shooting.

208
00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:32,440
Speaker 3: No, if you're shooting the direction of someone, yeah, they

209
00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:36,280
Speaker 3: absolutely can start shooting back, even if that absolute fire

210
00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,600
Speaker 3: is intended as being quote unquote suppressive. Right, Like, there's

211
00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:43,920
Speaker 3: there's really no legal precedent for arguing in this way.

212
00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,360
Speaker 2: And from a legal standpoint, if you were saying I

213
00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,840
Speaker 2: had to shoot at someone in immediate self defense. And

214
00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:52,120
Speaker 2: then you said, but I wasn't actually aiming at them.

215
00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:54,880
Speaker 2: I was just trying to suppress them that immediately. Like

216
00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:56,640
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think they were ever going to

217
00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,000
Speaker 2: be able to argue self defense because this was a cop.

218
00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:01,360
Speaker 2: But if this had not been, if this had been like,

219
00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,520
Speaker 2: you know, a right wing counter protester or something, the

220
00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:07,840
Speaker 2: fact that you're saying that you were like shooting to

221
00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:10,520
Speaker 2: try not to hit them is something that can get

222
00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:13,160
Speaker 2: you in trouble. That's an extremely dangerous thing from a

223
00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,000
Speaker 2: legal standpoint to talk about.

224
00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:16,920
Speaker 4: Especially if you're the one like initiating the use of

225
00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:17,480
Speaker 4: deadly force.

226
00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,440
Speaker 2: Yes, if you have now if they if a group

227
00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:22,680
Speaker 2: of people start shooting at you and you are firing

228
00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:24,400
Speaker 2: and you're just trying to keep it whatever that you're

229
00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:26,600
Speaker 2: in a say it because they've started shooting at you.

230
00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,679
Speaker 2: But like this person started shooting, Like just from a

231
00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:33,400
Speaker 2: legal standpoint, this is a nightmare for the defense. Yeah,

232
00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:35,160
Speaker 2: from the jump. Yeah.

233
00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,320
Speaker 3: Some of the defendants attended a daytime protest outside of

234
00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:42,440
Speaker 3: this facility earlier on July fourth, and after which they

235
00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,800
Speaker 3: then reported back to fellow defendants details regarding the facility

236
00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:50,600
Speaker 3: security prior to this nighttime action. I think it's time

237
00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:53,800
Speaker 3: for a quick break and then we'll return to discuss

238
00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:58,360
Speaker 3: the Antifa terrorism cell aspect of this case.

239
00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,079
Speaker 2: Great, well, I hate all of it so far, Garrison,

240
00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:13,880
Speaker 2: here's some ads. I guess we're back.

241
00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:16,680
Speaker 4: So let's talk about quote unquote Antifa.

242
00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:19,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's talk about quote end quote Antifa.

243
00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,440
Speaker 3: The government argued that the defendants were members of a

244
00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:29,920
Speaker 3: quote unquote North Texas Antifa cell. The indictment describes Antifa

245
00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,680
Speaker 3: as a quote militant enterprise made up of networks of

246
00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:36,520
Speaker 3: individuals and small groups, primarily ascribing to a revolutionary, anarchist

247
00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:40,600
Speaker 3: or autonomous Marxist ideology which explicitly calls for the overthrow

248
00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:43,480
Speaker 3: of the United States government, law enforcement authorities, and the

249
00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:47,320
Speaker 3: system of law unquote. So basically, they view Antifa as

250
00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:50,280
Speaker 3: left wing anti authoritarians. Right, That's how we can kind

251
00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:54,280
Speaker 3: of collapse the use of this term down into like

252
00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:57,800
Speaker 3: a single sentence, it's left wing anti authoritarianism. Though the

253
00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:03,080
Speaker 3: defendants never actually or organized altogether under the Antifa name,

254
00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,480
Speaker 3: the prosecution argued that they were linked through a triple

255
00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:12,080
Speaker 3: ven diagram of the Socialist Rifle Association the John Brown

256
00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:15,840
Speaker 3: Gun Club and the Emma Goldman book Club, and it's

257
00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:20,200
Speaker 3: all converged on quote unquote direct to militant action. I'm

258
00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:23,960
Speaker 3: assuming people are familiar with the SRA or the John

259
00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,040
Speaker 3: Brown Gun Club in some way.

260
00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:25,800
Speaker 5: Yeah.

261
00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:30,479
Speaker 3: The Emma Goldman Book Club was a local zene distributor

262
00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:36,000
Speaker 3: and publisher that also put on community events from a radical,

263
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:41,120
Speaker 3: anti capitalist, usually anarchist friendly perspective, Emma Goldwyn obviously being

264
00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:42,440
Speaker 3: an anarchist yep.

265
00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,960
Speaker 2: And like the fact that obviously these three organizations aren't

266
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:49,480
Speaker 2: actually tied together in any sort of like like they're

267
00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:51,800
Speaker 2: trying to frame it as like, you know, an al

268
00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:54,920
Speaker 2: Qaeda and an al Qaida affiliate type deal, right, which

269
00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:58,720
Speaker 2: is not sure accurate to how these organizations work or

270
00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,080
Speaker 2: what's going on here. But I'm not surprised they went

271
00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:03,040
Speaker 2: with this line of argument.

272
00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,720
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, the defendants had connections to these groups, right,

273
00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:11,960
Speaker 3: And because these groups have an ideological underpinning that can

274
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,080
Speaker 3: be seen as being quite similar in some ways, they're

275
00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,120
Speaker 3: viewing that as as part of the connection, right, that

276
00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:21,600
Speaker 3: connects the individuals who were involved in these sorts of

277
00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,040
Speaker 3: organizations or community events.

278
00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:26,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I'm not surprised. That's how they tried to

279
00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:27,120
Speaker 2: argue it sure.

280
00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:31,960
Speaker 3: A sticky notepad found at the Soto residence contained passwords

281
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:36,000
Speaker 3: for the Emma Goldman book Club Twitter account and an

282
00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:40,800
Speaker 3: Antifa Dallas fort Worth Twitter account, which prosecution usedes evidence

283
00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:44,960
Speaker 3: linking defendants to quote unquote Antifa. The government also called

284
00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:49,680
Speaker 3: on David Kyle Shittler as an expert weitness to testify

285
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:53,960
Speaker 3: about Antifa. Shittler is a member of the Center for

286
00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:58,160
Speaker 3: Security Policy and SBLC designeded hate group. He also helped

287
00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:01,840
Speaker 3: draft the definition of en Tifa given in this case,

288
00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:04,720
Speaker 3: and used that definition while testifying in front of the

289
00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:10,040
Speaker 3: Senate last year. The defense missed a deadline to challenge

290
00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:15,600
Speaker 3: the prosecutions and TIFA expert qualifications, which would have needed

291
00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,600
Speaker 3: to be filed as a pre trial motion as opposed

292
00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:22,960
Speaker 3: to an objection during the trial. Prosecutors also cited Trump's

293
00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:27,320
Speaker 3: Antifa Executive Order, despite this order being signed months after

294
00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,719
Speaker 3: the Prairie Land incident, and the prosecutors also claimed that

295
00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:37,399
Speaker 3: the International Antifa Defense Fund contributed over five thousand dollars

296
00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,959
Speaker 3: to the prairie Land defendants give Send Go crowd funding page.

297
00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:46,879
Speaker 3: So much of this case was spent arguing over whether

298
00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:52,240
Speaker 3: the defendants were in fact Antifa and what that even means, like,

299
00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:54,720
Speaker 3: what does it mean to be antifa and if that's

300
00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:58,359
Speaker 3: actually relevant to the charges that they were facing, And

301
00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:00,359
Speaker 3: by the end of the trial it became more clear

302
00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:05,480
Speaker 3: that the defendants weren't exactly being prosecuted for being members

303
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:09,679
Speaker 3: of Antifa. Rather, the government asserted that their proximity to

304
00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:14,199
Speaker 3: this idea of Antifa provided evidence to their motive and

305
00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:19,639
Speaker 3: preferred tactics. Quoting the Support Committee courtroom notes quote, the

306
00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,879
Speaker 3: government's strategy was to display zines, stickers, pamphlets, flags, and

307
00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:27,800
Speaker 3: other political materials anarchist, anti fascist, anti ice, animal liberation

308
00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:33,000
Speaker 3: and argued that this shared ideology proves conspiracy and motive.

309
00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:38,280
Speaker 3: FBI case agent Casey Bennett testified that the materials quote

310
00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:42,080
Speaker 3: show a group of people sharing an ideology and that

311
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,680
Speaker 3: this quote might lead us to intent behind the attack

312
00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:52,080
Speaker 3: and shows a conspiracy unquote. Towards the end of the trial,

313
00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:56,959
Speaker 3: Judge Pittman asked the prosecution quote, is it necessary to

314
00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:02,200
Speaker 3: prove this stuff about Antifa? The Support Committee courtroom notes

315
00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:07,360
Speaker 3: say that the prosecution responded by saying that Antifa ideology,

316
00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:11,800
Speaker 3: particularly black block was how the group operated. The judge pressed,

317
00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:16,400
Speaker 3: quote whether it's Antifa or the Methodist Women's Auxiliary, why

318
00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:17,000
Speaker 3: does it matter?

319
00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:17,520
Speaker 4: Yep.

320
00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:20,920
Speaker 3: The prosecution argued that they took quote unquote direct action

321
00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,919
Speaker 3: against the ICE facility, and argued Black Block and Antifa

322
00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:28,880
Speaker 3: ideology were central to how the alleged attack was carried out.

323
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:33,320
Speaker 2: Unquote, Well, that's yeah, that's positive at least, I guess.

324
00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:35,720
Speaker 3: The government described black Block for the purpose of this

325
00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,680
Speaker 3: case as quote dark clothing with head and face coverings

326
00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,880
Speaker 3: that concealed their identities, designed to hide each individual's identity,

327
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,719
Speaker 3: but also to aid and those members engaged in illegal

328
00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,480
Speaker 3: acts by making members indistinguishable from one another to law

329
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,760
Speaker 3: enforcement unquote. The jury was shown clothing from all the

330
00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,240
Speaker 3: defendants as evidence, as well as body armour and a

331
00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:58,800
Speaker 3: quote unquote resist fascism flag. Now, all this does raise

332
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,480
Speaker 3: the question about whether this press acution is against the

333
00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:06,080
Speaker 3: defendant's political ideology or the specific criminal acts of throwing

334
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,760
Speaker 3: fireworks or shooting at a police officer, rather than being

335
00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:13,640
Speaker 3: convicted of being members of Antifa, the terrorist group, something

336
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:17,360
Speaker 3: that still doesn't really have legal precedent. The prosecutors argued

337
00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:21,399
Speaker 3: that the Antifa ideology left wing anti authoritarianism played a

338
00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:24,720
Speaker 3: role in inspiring the defendants formed the basis of political

339
00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:28,800
Speaker 3: affinity that brought this collection of individuals together and relate

340
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:33,040
Speaker 3: to a collection of security practices, subcultural practices, and associated

341
00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,920
Speaker 3: tactics which were employed before, during, and after the criminal

342
00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:41,600
Speaker 3: acts related to the Noise demo quote unquote, opsec practices

343
00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,880
Speaker 3: like you know, black Block are using signal were used

344
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,720
Speaker 3: as evidence, Yeah, that there was some sort of conspiracy

345
00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:49,359
Speaker 3: at foot.

346
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,080
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, I mean, yeah, that makes sense from a

347
00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,679
Speaker 2: prosecutorial standpoint, right, these people are talking about like just

348
00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,280
Speaker 2: the fact that there are zines talking about the purpose

349
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:03,080
Speaker 2: of black Block and people are having a planning meeting

350
00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,239
Speaker 2: ahead of time where they're like checking their gear and

351
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,120
Speaker 2: talking about how they're going to come in block, Like yeah, yeah,

352
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,640
Speaker 2: that's uh, that's that's unfortunate. Yeah, I can see why

353
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:13,560
Speaker 2: the prosecution went with that line of argument.

354
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,280
Speaker 3: But how does this relate to like terrorism, right, because right,

355
00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,560
Speaker 3: conspiracy and terrorism are different things. Yes, So to get

356
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:24,480
Speaker 3: an idea of the government's own preferred language regarding antifa

357
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:28,439
Speaker 3: terrorism all quote from the guilty plea drafted by the

358
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,640
Speaker 3: government for a former defendant turned government witness.

359
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:32,280
Speaker 4: Quote.

360
00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:37,000
Speaker 3: The terrorism was calculated to influence and affect the conduct

361
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:41,800
Speaker 3: of government by intimidation or coercion. Co conspirators adhered to

362
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:46,879
Speaker 3: an Antifa anarchist ideology and organized cells or affinity groups.

363
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,440
Speaker 3: Co conspirators began planning direct action at Prairie Land. Co

364
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 3: conspirators agreed to address in black bloc to provide cover

365
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,640
Speaker 3: for each other to commit crimes, including concealing the escape

366
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 3: of those who committed destruction of govern property unquote. So

367
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,160
Speaker 3: this is how it relates to the actual legal definition

368
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 3: of terrorism, right, which is certain criminal acts intending to

369
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,840
Speaker 3: change or influence government policy by intimidation or coercion. Right.

370
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,920
Speaker 3: That's how the government uses the term terrorism. And this

371
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,760
Speaker 3: section of the plea written by the government shows how

372
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:23,120
Speaker 3: the government is self asserting the terrorism that happened at

373
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 3: Prairie Land.

374
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 5: Right.

375
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 3: There's been a lot of headlines talking about the role

376
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 3: of zines at this trial, and zines did play a

377
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 3: two part role. Prosecution did argue that the presence of

378
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:42,200
Speaker 3: insurrectionary zines is indicative of some alignment with Antifa, even

379
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,160
Speaker 3: if the possession of these zines itself is not a crime.

380
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:50,120
Speaker 3: The government's Antifa expert testified that owning political texts does

381
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:55,360
Speaker 3: not necessarily indicate group membership or personal allegiance to an ideology.

382
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:59,080
Speaker 3: Quote just because I own a copy of mind KOMF

383
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:01,880
Speaker 3: does that make make me a Nazi? If I own

384
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 3: the Capital, does that make me a Marxist?

385
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 4: Unquote?

386
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 5: Sure?

387
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 4: Stunning? Stunning A first example given here.

388
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, interesting call, but base, I mean, but also like

389
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,240
Speaker 2: a valid argument. Yeah, but this is true, right, Yes,

390
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 2: and this is I've seen people framing the verdict as

391
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,640
Speaker 2: having zines or whatever, like it's an act of terrorism.

392
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 2: That's not what it was decided here.

393
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:29,919
Speaker 3: No, what's happening here is a bit more complicated and

394
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:31,240
Speaker 3: harder to explain.

395
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:31,800
Speaker 5: Yes.

396
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,199
Speaker 3: The other relevancy of zines to this case relates to

397
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:39,960
Speaker 3: the concealing documents charges against des Estrata and his wife,

398
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 3: Mari Rayuda, based on transporting a box of political zines

399
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,360
Speaker 3: from his wife's house to a friend's house in Denton, Texas.

400
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,359
Speaker 3: The government claims that Roda called des from jail on

401
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:54,919
Speaker 3: July sixth, instructing him to conceal evidence. Now, we don't

402
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 3: have access to a full transcript of this call. The

403
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 3: full call was into the jury, but sections of it

404
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,879
Speaker 3: were read or listened to in court. The most detailed

405
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,640
Speaker 3: account of the call segments played in court come from

406
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 3: notes taken by the Prairie Land Defense Support Committee. The

407
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 3: actual evidence exhibit is not yet available to be purchased

408
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 3: on PACER. Not sure if it will be or if

409
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 3: that'll just be after sentencing. But I tried to actually

410
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,440
Speaker 3: get the transcript with the call and it was not available.

411
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 3: Des told his wife that he already talked with her mom,

412
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 3: who she had previously called the day before. Rita talked

413
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:39,199
Speaker 3: about fed's confiscating property. FBI Special Agent Whitworth said in

414
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 3: his opinion, Rieda was concerned about the evidence. Rieda then

415
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,440
Speaker 3: voiced concern for her car parked at the twenty four

416
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,919
Speaker 3: hundred block of fifty sixth Street, which had her phone

417
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:54,160
Speaker 3: stored inside. This was the staging site before she went

418
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,920
Speaker 3: to the action. She then instructed Dez to quote unquote,

419
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,920
Speaker 3: toe it. My phone is in the back. Do what

420
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 3: you got to do, Just tow it unquote. The Support

421
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 3: Committee wrote that quote. Prosecution replayed this section, characterizing it

422
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,880
Speaker 3: as Rida trying to get rid of evidence. Rada says

423
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,880
Speaker 3: to quote unquote retrieve her items from the vehicle, does

424
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,119
Speaker 3: not refer to her items using the word evidence, and

425
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:24,679
Speaker 3: does not say hide, destroy, or conceal. Des never actually

426
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 3: got to this car or the phone. He explained that

427
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 3: the vehicle would be repoed. But Rayeda also said in

428
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,159
Speaker 3: this call, quote move whatever you need to move in

429
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:39,159
Speaker 3: the house. The support committee wrote that quote. Prosecution argued

430
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 3: this meant moving evidence. Defense noted she was talking about

431
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:47,440
Speaker 3: pets at the time. On the call, Des mentioned that

432
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 3: he had already been at the house and replied, quote unquote,

433
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 3: were good in reference to moving stuff from the house.

434
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,679
Speaker 3: The defense questioned how they could have conspired out of

435
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 3: order right because the government claims there was a conspiracy

436
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:05,159
Speaker 3: to conceal documents, but Des here said that he moved

437
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 3: things before he actually got on this phone call with

438
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,679
Speaker 3: his wife. The FBI answered that Des just had already

439
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 3: acquired the necessary information to act, just not directly from

440
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 3: his wife. Now, Des was found guilty of quote corruptly

441
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 3: concealing a document or record by transporting a box containing

442
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 3: numerous Antifa materials such as insurrection planning, anti law enforcement,

443
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 3: anti government, and anti immigration enforcement documents and propaganda, intending

444
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 3: to conceal the box's contents and impair its availability for

445
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 3: use in a federal grand jury and federal criminal proceedings unquote,

446
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 3: that's from the DOJ.

447
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 4: He and his wife Rida.

448
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 3: Were found guilty of conspiracy to conceal documents and other

449
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 3: objects that would implicate Raeda in the riot and shooting

450
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 3: at the Prairie Land facility also according to the Department

451
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 3: of Justice. So basically this was an evidence tampering charge

452
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 3: of concealing evidence charge. The actual presence of the zines

453
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 3: was not the crime, but the government argued that the

454
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,360
Speaker 3: zines themselves were evidence, or that des suspected they could

455
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,719
Speaker 3: be evidence, and that's why he moved them from his

456
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 3: wife's house to this other location. We're gonna go and

457
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 3: rumber break and then return to discuss two more charges.

458
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:35,680
Speaker 4: Okay, we're back.

459
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 3: Nine of the counts, count one, two, four, and five

460
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 3: through ten cited Pinkerton versus United States nineteen forty six.

461
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 5: Okay.

462
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 3: The judge explained this to the jury by saying that

463
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 3: a defendant can be criminally liable for the offenses committed

464
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 3: by another co conspirator if the offense was quote reasonably

465
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:02,919
Speaker 3: foreseeable and committed and in furtherance of the conspiracy, with

466
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 3: the judge writing in jury instructions.

467
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:05,679
Speaker 4: Quote.

468
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,439
Speaker 3: A defendant can be found guilty and held criminally liable

469
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 3: for an offense under Pinkerton co conspirator liability, even if

470
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,119
Speaker 3: the defendant was not charged with conspiracy. It is not

471
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:19,160
Speaker 3: required that the conspiracy agrees to commit or facilitate each

472
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 3: and every part of a substantive offense that is in

473
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 3: furtherance of the conspiracy. A defendant must merely reach an

474
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,879
Speaker 3: agreement with the specific intent that the underlying criminal objective

475
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:35,159
Speaker 3: be achieved by the conspiracy unquote. Early in the trial,

476
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 3: prosecution argued that song firing on the officers was quote

477
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 3: unquote reasonably foreseeable based on the planning of the action

478
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 3: and previous statements made by Song, But this Pickerton liability

479
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 3: also applied to the other charges, including riot materials, port terrorism,

480
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 3: and the explosive charge. The jury found all defendants that

481
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 3: were charged guilty of counts one, two, three, and four

482
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 3: that's riot material support and to explosive charges, but did

483
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 3: not find the other defendants besides the Song, guilty of

484
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 3: attempted murder or discharging a firearm. Using the Pinkerton co

485
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 3: conspirator liability the prosecution wanted the other individuals at the

486
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 3: protest to be found guilty of the charges of attempted

487
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 3: murder using the liability, and the jury did not do that.

488
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 3: Let's talk about two of the charges that now carry

489
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 3: some worrying potential to be used against protesters in the

490
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 3: future based on the precedent that this case sets. First,

491
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 3: the conspiracy to use and carry in explosive and using

492
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 3: uncarry in explosive during a riot. The only quote unquote

493
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 3: explosives at this noise demonstration protest were fireworks, and the

494
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 3: judge even confirmed that it was established that the fireworks

495
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 3: caused no damage to the ice facility. Yet Steven Brennemann,

496
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 3: ats Explosives Special Agent testified that fireworks meet the statutory

497
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 3: definition of explosives under eighteen USC. Section eight four four

498
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 3: IJ because the fireworks contain gunpowder as defined in the statute.

499
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 3: This could have some pretty wide reaching implications. A lot

500
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 3: of protests use fireworks. This was a protest on fourth

501
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 3: of July, a day full of the use of fireworks.

502
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 3: Robert and I have been to a protest covered a

503
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 3: protest in twenty twenty outside of a federal government building

504
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 3: that also had a lot of fireworks and fireworks shot

505
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 3: towards the building. Yep, if that happened, now it's possible

506
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 3: that people at this protest could be charged with this

507
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 3: conspiracy to use and carry an explosive.

508
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I mean they've clearly been wanting arguing

509
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 2: for this ever since twenty twenty, right, like, yeah, fire Well,

510
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 2: because it wasn't just Portland, wasn't the only place where

511
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 2: people were using fireworks. Generally, people were using fireworks as

512
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 2: kind of a response to the police using flash flashbacks,

513
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 2: right like it, it was a force equalizer. Both were

514
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 2: used quite often. But you know, like I had so

515
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 2: many of those fucking things blow up in my face

516
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 2: and then every day, Like these are not bombs, These

517
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 2: are not pipe bombs. Like it's not fun to have

518
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 2: them blow up right next to you, but it's these

519
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 2: are not like deadly explosives.

520
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 4: Yes, agreed.

521
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 3: And even the agents investigating this case mailed materials from

522
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 3: these fireworks for testing using regular FedEx, not labeling them

523
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 3: as possibly dangerous or explosive, and the government argued that

524
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 3: it was because the amount in the FedEx package was

525
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 3: just so small that they didn't need to label it

526
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 3: as being dangerous.

527
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 2: Yeah.

528
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 3: Now, lastly, I need to discuss count two. It's providing

529
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 3: material support to terrorists. This is eighteen us C.

530
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 4: Two three three nine.

531
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 3: This is the charge that a lot of people are

532
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 3: talking about when they're mentioning someone has been convicted of

533
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 3: terrorism for XYZ, for using signal, for wearing black block,

534
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 3: for possessing zines. They're referring to this charge. Now, this

535
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 3: statute has two sections. Section B refers to knowingly attempting to,

536
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 3: conspiring to, or actually providing material support or resources to

537
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 3: a designated foreign terrorist organization. This is not how the

538
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 3: government used this statute, right, They're not considering Antifa a

539
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 3: foreign terrorist organization for the purposes of this case.

540
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 4: That's not how are using this.

541
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 3: The defendants were charged with Section A alleging that they

542
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,959
Speaker 3: provided and attempted to provide material support and resources, and

543
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 3: did conceal and disguise the nature of their material support

544
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 3: and resources, including property, services, training, communications, equipment, weapons, explosives, personnel,

545
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 3: including themselves, and transportation, and intending that they were to

546
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 3: be used in preparation for, and in carrying out an

547
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 3: offense identified as a federal crime of terrorism, or carrying

548
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 3: out the concealment of an escape from an offense identified

549
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 3: as a federal crime of terrorism.

550
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 4: That's a lot.

551
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a long sentence. This is certainly a very

552
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 3: confusing charge.

553
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 5: Yeah.

554
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 3: Now, this statute lists at least twenty eight possible terrorism offenses.

555
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 3: Now relevant to this case are three eighteen Usc. Eight

556
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 3: four four f, which is maliciously attempting to damage government

557
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 3: property by means of fire or an explosive. For the

558
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 3: purpose of this case, that is throwing fireworks at a building.

559
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 4: Eighteen USC. One three sixty one.

560
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 3: That's wilful depredation against any property of the United States

561
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 3: exceeding one thousand dollars. For the purposes of this case,

562
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 3: this would be damage a government property in other ways

563
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 3: like slashing tires, graffiti, that sort of thing, right. And finally,

564
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 3: eighteen USC one one four killing or attempting to kill

565
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 3: an officer or employee of the United States.

566
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 4: That's pretty self explanatory.

567
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, So the government accused the defendants of providing material

568
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 3: support in furtherance of committing these three crimes of terrorism,

569
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 3: even if each individual defendant themselves did not actually commit

570
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 3: one of these three crimes. To quote the jury instructions,

571
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 3: quote the government does not have to prove all of

572
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 3: these to you for you to return a guilty verdict

573
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 3: on this charge. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt on one

574
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 3: is enough, unquote. So the jury does not need to

575
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 3: find proof that all of these three terrorism offenses were committed,

576
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 3: that the explosives charge, the destruction government property charge, or

577
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,359
Speaker 3: the attempt at killing charge. They just need to find

578
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 3: proof beyond a reasonable doubt that material support was provided

579
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 3: for one of these. Part of what makes this charge

580
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 3: kind of dangerous is that we don't I don't know

581
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 3: which terroristic crime or crimes the jury found sufficient evidence for,

582
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 3: or if they used different offenses for different defendants, Nor

583
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,879
Speaker 3: do we explicitly know what the jury thought qualified as

584
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 3: material support. It could have been driving people to an action,

585
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 3: mere presence at an action, wearing black clothes, providing money

586
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 3: to buy fireworks, all those could be considered material support.

587
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 3: But because of how the jury just writes guilty on

588
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 3: this charge, we don't actually know what the specific justification

589
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:33,839
Speaker 3: they used to find this.

590
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 4: To be true.

591
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 3: Because the discharges so is so broad and can contain

592
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 3: a lot of things that qualify as material support, including

593
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 3: just being merely present at an action. Like personnel can

594
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 3: be material support in furtherance of a federal crime of terrorism.

595
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:53,360
Speaker 3: So wearing black block at an action where no crime

596
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 3: happens would not constitute terrorism, but wearing black clothes at

597
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 3: a protest where someone does ideologically motivated crime of terrorism

598
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 3: could be seen as materially supporting that crime or concealing

599
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 3: the escape of the person who committed that crime. I

600
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,760
Speaker 3: want to quote from the judge's instructions to the jury

601
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 3: regarding the First Amendment.

602
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 4: Quote.

603
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 3: Constitutionally protected speech can be properly used as evidence to

604
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:25,319
Speaker 3: prove a defendant's motive, intent, and knowledge to commit the

605
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 3: offense or further the unlawful purpose of any jointly undertaken

606
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 3: criminal activity. Stated another way, if a defendant's speech, expression,

607
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 3: or associations were made with the intent to knowingly provide

608
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:42,919
Speaker 3: material support or resources to be used to prepare for

609
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,840
Speaker 3: or carry out a violation of federal law, or to

610
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 3: carry out the concealment of an escape from such a violation,

611
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 3: then the First Amendment would not provide a defense to

612
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 3: that conduct.

613
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 4: Unquote.

614
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,360
Speaker 3: So it is possible now using this case as precedent,

615
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 3: if you're present at a protest before someone commits a

616
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 3: serious crime and you have a tangential link to that person,

617
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 3: you could also face similar charges. Yeah, if you're in

618
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 3: a group chat with someone and then they commit a crime,

619
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,399
Speaker 3: you could face similar charges. This is not the first

620
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 3: time the government has tried to use this sort of

621
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 3: like conspiracy against a large group of protesters. Notably, they

622
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,839
Speaker 3: tried to do this in Atlanta unsuccessfully. But I think

623
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,839
Speaker 3: it's worth noting they were only unsuccessful on their rico

624
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 3: charges because of procedural error, not because of actual evidence

625
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 3: argued in court. It's that the prosecutor in that case

626
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 3: did not actually have justification or the legal justification to

627
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 3: bring this charge. So we never actually saw this get

628
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 3: argued out in front of a jury and find the

629
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 3: jury's verdict. But this is a part of an ongoing

630
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,800
Speaker 3: strategy the prosecution has done against protesters the past few years,

631
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 3: and in this case successfully.

632
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's also like as bleak as this is, and

633
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:58,280
Speaker 2: this is very bleak, This is not the final say

634
00:37:58,440 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 2: on how any case like this will be a ge

635
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 2: dicated everywhere. This is a case in Texas, right, Like,

636
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,799
Speaker 2: this is not Yes, this isn't the fucking US Supreme Court.

637
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 2: It's not even the Texas Supreme Court, Right, Yeah, not

638
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 2: to minimize how fucking awful this is. But this does

639
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 2: not mean this is how cases like this will be

640
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:19,360
Speaker 2: adjudicated every time they come to court everywhere in the US.

641
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 3: Yes, And the vagueness of the material support charge is

642
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 3: like a double edged sword, right one. It can be

643
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 3: used in cases like this, and we don't actually know

644
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 3: how they were exactly able to successfully argue that, because

645
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 3: we don't know which specific federal offense of terrorism the

646
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 3: jury found material support was provided for, or if it

647
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 3: was multiple offenses. Nor do we know exactly which things

648
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 3: the jury found constituted material support. But because we don't

649
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 3: know these things, that means when prosecutors try to argue

650
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 3: this charge again in the future, they kind of have

651
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 3: to start from the ground floor all over again. It's

652
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 3: harder to apply this exact precedent because the specific things

653
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 3: that constituted material support and the specific crime that material

654
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 3: support was provided for are sort of ambiguous. But the

655
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 3: vagueness of this charge certainly leads to a lot of confusion.

656
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 3: And you can now look at this case and see

657
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 3: that legal possession of firearms or firearms training and possession

658
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 3: of political paraphernalia could bolster ideological links between you and defendants,

659
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 3: which could be used as evidence for a charge like this,

660
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 3: right yep, or for conspiracy charges, and that obviously is worrying.

661
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 3: Now a Song faces a minimum penalty of twenty years

662
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:41,759
Speaker 3: a maximum of life in prison. Other defendants of Prairie

663
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 3: Land face sentences ranging from a minimum of ten years

664
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 3: to up to sixty The husband convicted of concealing documents

665
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 3: faces up to forty years in prison, and those who

666
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,359
Speaker 3: pled guilty face the sentences of up to fifteen years

667
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 3: in federal prison.

668
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 4: Though their cooperation may lower that.

669
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 3: Another man faces charges for evidence tempering because he allegedly

670
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 3: removed Prairie Land defendants from discord chats last year. But

671
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 3: this is a state charge which will be going to

672
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 3: trial later in April.

673
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:15,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, that'll be interesting to watch, I guess. Yeah, this

674
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 2: is bleak. This is extremely worrying. That's part of the

675
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 2: point is to scare people, to make people feel like

676
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:27,360
Speaker 2: they can't trust other activists, to make people scared to organize,

677
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,719
Speaker 2: to make them scared to be in group chats. And yeah,

678
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:33,800
Speaker 2: there's very real reason to be concerned as a result

679
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:35,759
Speaker 2: of this. However, none of this should be seen as

680
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 2: like the final word on all of this stuff. And

681
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,400
Speaker 2: this certainly is not as simple as just having a

682
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 2: zine or wearing black is terrorism. Now, that's not what

683
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 2: was adjudicated here.

684
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 3: No, these things do all relate to, or they're trying

685
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 3: to be connected to, you know, actual crimes which did occur.

686
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 2: And that's certainly the goal by the way that the

687
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 2: right has, but that's not what they've achieved quite yet.

688
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 3: I mean, it's definitely a way to try to scare

689
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 3: people out of organizing in the sense that you know,

690
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 3: you cannot be found a terrorist just by calling yourself

691
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 3: like Antifa, just just by being Antifa alone by yourself,

692
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:13,879
Speaker 3: you're not going to be a terrorist. The same way

693
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:17,760
Speaker 3: you can't be put in jail just for being a Nazi. Right,

694
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 3: But if you are part of a Nazi group chat

695
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,399
Speaker 3: where you're planning an action and then a Nazi does

696
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 3: something at the at the action, like shooting a power substation,

697
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 3: then that Nazi and the other Nazis that he's organizing with,

698
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 3: you know, could face terrorism charges. That That is how

699
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 3: those sorts of like cases work, and a very similar

700
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 3: thing is being done here.

701
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 4: It's it's not the.

702
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 3: Actual like political ideology necessarily at trial, but organizing with

703
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 3: other people in furtherance of a political ideology is what

704
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 3: the government is trying to suppress.

705
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 6: Yep.

706
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:54,359
Speaker 2: Cool, Well, I don't have anything else to add at

707
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 2: this point.

708
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 3: You know, no way will certainly cover this. One's sentencing

709
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:01,720
Speaker 3: happens later this year in June.

710
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 2: Be careful. And if you're in a group chat with

711
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 2: somebody who keeps writing shit that you're like, wow, that

712
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 2: would be a terrible thing to hear read back in court,

713
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 2: really reconsider, say, in a group chat with that person.

714
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,319
Speaker 2: Just be wary about what you say and what other

715
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 2: people say to you online, not just because of court stuff,

716
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 2: because like, if somebody is being incredibly reckless with the

717
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:30,280
Speaker 2: things that they are putting down and writing, they're probably

718
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 2: being reckless in other areas. Just be careful, you know, folks,

719
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:34,240
Speaker 2: Be careful.

720
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 7: I'm Michael Phillips, an historian and the author of a

721
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 7: book about racism in Dallas called White Metropolis, and the

722
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 7: co author with longtime journalists Betsy Freeoff, of the history

723
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 7: of eugenics in Texas called The Purifying Knife.

724
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 8: I'm Stephen Monchelli. I'm a journalist who specializes in covering

725
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 8: political extremism and far right internet culture for The Texas Observer,

726
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:14,240
Speaker 8: The Barbed Wire, and other publications. Today we'll be talking

727
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,279
Speaker 8: about the Fifth Circuit, and we'll start with a man

728
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,360
Speaker 8: named James Hoe, who, on what might have been the

729
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 8: biggest day of his judicial career so far, couldn't have

730
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:24,880
Speaker 8: picked a creepier setting.

731
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:28,760
Speaker 7: The fifty two year old's legal career has rocketed forward

732
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:33,840
Speaker 7: at light speed. Born in Taiwan and a graduate of Stanford,

733
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:36,280
Speaker 7: he signed up as an attorney for the white shoe

734
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 7: law firm Gibson Dunn in California in two thousand. At

735
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 7: age twenty seven, he joined a high powered legal team

736
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 7: that forever shaped the history of the United States.

737
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 4: From NBC News in Washington, this is Meet the Press

738
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 4: with Tim Russer Our Issues.

739
00:43:56,200 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 8: This Sunday, thirty six days after the election.

740
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,839
Speaker 2: Al Gore ends his campaign. For the sake of our

741
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 2: unity as a people and the strength of our democracy,

742
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 2: I offer my concession.

743
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 4: George W.

744
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:13,920
Speaker 9: Bush will be the forty third President of the United States.

745
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:16,719
Speaker 1: I'm thankful to the American people for the great privilege

746
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 1: of being able to serve as your next president.

747
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:25,840
Speaker 8: Young and almost entirely unknown outside of legal circles. James

748
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 8: Hoe joined some of the most famous conservative lawyers in

749
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 8: the country in the year two thousand to convince the

750
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 8: United States Supreme Court to stop the hotly contested presidential

751
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 8: vote count in Florida. That move elevated President George W.

752
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:41,839
Speaker 8: Bush to the White House. In this effort, James Hoe

753
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:44,839
Speaker 8: rubbed shoulders with right wing luminaries like the man who

754
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 8: in five years would be the Chief Justice of the

755
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 8: Supreme Court, John Roberts.

756
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:55,280
Speaker 7: Ho rocketed to judicial superstardom. He clerked for Supreme Court

757
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 7: Justice Clarence Thomas for a couple of years, then from

758
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 7: two thousand and eight to two th and ten, he

759
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 7: succeeded Ted Cruz as Solicitor General of Texas. There he

760
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 7: handled appeals filed by the state in cases heard by

761
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 7: the state Supreme Court and the U. S Supreme Court.

762
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 7: On January four, twenty eighteen, Hose celebrated his next rapid

763
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 7: climb up the judicial ladder when he has sworn as

764
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,439
Speaker 7: the newest judge on the United States Fifth Circuit Court

765
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 7: of Appeals, which oversees federal cases that are originating Texas, Mississippi,

766
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 7: and Louisiana.

767
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 8: Hooe'se swearing in ceremony took place at the mansion of

768
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 8: Dallas real estate billionaire Harlan Crowe. You've probably heard that

769
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 8: name before because Crow has made news with the revelation

770
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:42,280
Speaker 8: that he lavished hundreds of thousands of dollars in gifts

771
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:46,280
Speaker 8: and favors on Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, including cruises

772
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:49,280
Speaker 8: to Indonesian islands on the businessman's one hundred and sixty

773
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:52,760
Speaker 8: two foot superyacht and a one hundred and nineteen thousand

774
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 8: dollars bible that once belonged to leading abolitionist Frederick Douglass.

775
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:00,360
Speaker 8: Crowe flew Thomas to Dallas on his private jet so

776
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 8: the Justice could swear in his former clerk. The surroundings

777
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:09,360
Speaker 8: included Crowe's unnerving souvenirs, once described on the program Inside Edition.

778
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 9: Questions are being raised today about Supreme Court Justice Clarence

779
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 9: Thomas's friendship with a billionaire who collects Nazi memorabilia. Published

780
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 9: reports say Dallas tycoon Harlan Crowe's controversial collection includes Hitler's

781
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:28,400
Speaker 9: notorious autobiography Mind Komfe, signed by Hitler, oil paintings by Hitler,

782
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 9: and Lennon Napkins embroidered with the Nazi swastika. The collection

783
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 9: is housed at Crowe's mansion in Dallas. I can't get

784
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:38,879
Speaker 9: over the collection of Nazi memorabilia, said one guest who

785
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,720
Speaker 9: saw the Nazi treasure trove. You sort of just gasp

786
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 9: when you walk into the room.

787
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 7: The estate also includes what Crow has called the Garden

788
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:52,359
Speaker 7: of Evil, a collection of imposing statues of past authoritarian

789
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 7: leaders like Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin, Mauzedung, Nikolai Chacchescu, the

790
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 7: eccentric Romaine and tyrant violently deposed in nineteen eighty nine,

791
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:06,759
Speaker 7: as well as a bust of Gavrilla Prinsep, the Bosnian

792
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 7: Serb nationalist who triggered World War One with his assassination

793
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 7: of Austrian Archduke Franz Ferdinand. Crow claims that his clutch

794
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 7: is somehow a statement of his hatred for both communism

795
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 7: and fascism.

796
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:24,360
Speaker 8: The creepy artwork perhaps foreshadowed Hoe's ominous career in the

797
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 8: Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals. On that bench, he has

798
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 8: become infamous for weirdly written and extreme opinions in which

799
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 8: he has suggested that the children of migrants might not

800
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 8: be eligible for birthright citizenship because the country is being

801
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 8: quote invaded, and that abortion actually somehow injures doctors because

802
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 8: they are denied the intense pleasure of delivering babies. Those

803
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 8: antics might lead him to one day occupy a seat

804
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 8: on the United States Supreme Court, potentially succeeding Thomas or

805
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:54,880
Speaker 8: Samuel Alito, the two oldest justices on the nation's highest bench.

806
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 7: In this episode, we'll look at the career of Judge

807
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 7: James hoe, is alarming right way judicial activism, and the

808
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 7: strange history of the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, which

809
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,239
Speaker 7: since the Reagan administration has transformed for one of the

810
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 7: most liberal judicial bodies in the country too, perhaps the

811
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:12,840
Speaker 7: scariest court in America.

812
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:16,719
Speaker 8: Given its current reactionary reputation, it's a bit ironic. The

813
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:19,879
Speaker 8: Fifth Circuit Court convenes in a New Orleans courthouse named

814
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 8: after John Minor Wisdom, a New Orleans native who formed

815
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 8: a critical part of a quartet of liberal judges known

816
00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:30,319
Speaker 8: simply as the Four who in the nineteen fifties and

817
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:34,800
Speaker 8: nineteen sixties issued a series of revolutionary rulings that advanced

818
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 8: the civil rights movement. President Dwight Eisenhower appointed Wisdom to

819
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:42,400
Speaker 8: the bench in nineteen fifty seven. He quickly formed an

820
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:44,760
Speaker 8: alliance with three other liberal judges on the Fifth Circuit,

821
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 8: Albert P. Tuttle of Georgia, John R. Brown of Texas,

822
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:52,959
Speaker 8: and Richard T. Rivis of Alabama. Rivers was the only

823
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:55,399
Speaker 8: Democrat on the squad that came to be known as

824
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 8: the Fifth Fore, these liberals typically prevailed over the conservatives

825
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 8: serving on the Fifth Circuit, and at that point, the

826
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:04,880
Speaker 8: Fifth Circuit heard cases from states that spread across the

827
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 8: core of the one time Confederacy, including Louisiana, Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Texas,

828
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 8: and Georgia. This placed the Fifth boar on the front

829
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:16,319
Speaker 8: lines of the civil rights struggle. In nineteen fifty eight,

830
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 8: the Fifth Circuit began shipping away at Jim Crow. The

831
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 8: court heard the case of Joe Dorsey Junior of New Orleans,

832
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:27,520
Speaker 8: challenging the Louisiana law that outlawed matches between black and

833
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:32,319
Speaker 8: white boxers. Wisdom wrote the majority opinion, which declared such

834
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 8: legislation made a mockery of the equal protection clause of

835
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 8: the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution. That opinion

836
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 8: like many, Wisdom wrote, would be upheld the following year

837
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:46,320
Speaker 8: by the Supreme Court that was presided over by Chief

838
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:51,320
Speaker 8: Justice Earl Warren. Louisiana integrated boxing matches, but for years

839
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 8: outside the ring, the arenas divided into black and white seating.

840
00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 8: In the coming years, the Fifth Circuit Forest and parish

841
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 8: in Louisiana to reopen their schools. After that school board

842
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:07,399
Speaker 8: voted to close all campuses to prevent integration. The Fifth

843
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,359
Speaker 8: Circuit Court ordered the University of Mississippi to admit an

844
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:14,760
Speaker 8: African American student, James Meredith. In his opinion, Wisdom wrote

845
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 8: that Ole miss as it's known had engaged in a

846
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:24,400
Speaker 8: carefully calculated campaign of delay, harassment, and masterly inactivity. Riots

847
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 8: broke out as federal troops had to enforce the order.

848
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:36,360
Speaker 10: James H. Meredith is formally enrolled at the University of Mississippi,

849
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 10: ending one chapter in the federal government's efforts to desegregate

850
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:42,879
Speaker 10: the university. The town of Oxford is an armed camp

851
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:46,320
Speaker 10: following riots that accompanied the registration of the first Negro

852
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:50,000
Speaker 10: in the university's one hundred and eighteen year history. Much

853
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:53,320
Speaker 10: of this film record was destroyed when our cameraman Gordon

854
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:56,440
Speaker 10: Yoder was attacked, but he did salvage. Pictures of Governor

855
00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 10: Ross Barnett at the scene. The governor thought the court

856
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:03,839
Speaker 10: order long and bitterly before modifying his stad saying Mississippi

857
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:11,279
Speaker 10: was overpowered by the federal government. President Kennedy appealed to

858
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 10: the students and to the people of the state to

859
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 10: comply peacefully with the law and bring the crisis to

860
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 10: an end. Even as he talked, riots were breaking out

861
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 10: in Oxford. Americans are free, in sure to disagree with

862
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 10: the law, but not to disobey it.

863
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:29,239
Speaker 1: For any government of laws and not of man.

864
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 10: No man, however prominent or powerful, and no mob, however

865
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:41,239
Speaker 10: unruly or boisterous, is entitled to defy a.

866
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:41,919
Speaker 2: Court of law.

867
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:46,440
Speaker 7: In nineteen sixty three, the Fifth Circuit ordered the desegregation

868
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 7: of community centers, cultural centers, playgrounds, and public parks. The

869
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 7: next year, the Court ruled that jury selection system in

870
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:58,279
Speaker 7: Orleans Paris, where as Wisdom noted, no black had ever

871
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 7: sit on his grand jury or trial jury panel, violated

872
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:06,120
Speaker 7: the Constitution. Two years after that, the Fifth Circuit overturned

873
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:10,160
Speaker 7: Louisiana's photo registration literacy tests, which required a citizen to

874
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:13,399
Speaker 7: pass in the judgment of white officials a written test

875
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:18,760
Speaker 7: on the Constitution. Such laws had long disenfranchised impoverished African

876
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 7: Americans and whites.

877
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 8: Perhaps Wisdom's most significant opinion came with the nineteen sixty

878
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:28,160
Speaker 8: eight United States v. Jefferson case, which blocked states from

879
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:31,240
Speaker 8: avoiding compliance with the Brown v. Board of Education decision

880
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:34,719
Speaker 8: by setting up so called quote school choice plans in

881
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 8: which parents allegedly freely chose to send their children to

882
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:39,280
Speaker 8: segregated schools.

883
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:44,760
Speaker 1: Wisdom wrote, the Constitution is both color blind and color

884
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:50,319
Speaker 1: conscious to avoid conflict with the equal Protection clause, a

885
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:55,600
Speaker 1: classification that denies a benefit, causes harm, or imposes a

886
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:59,880
Speaker 1: burden must not be based on race. In that sense,

887
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 1: the Constitution is color blind, but the Constitution is color conscious.

888
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 1: To prevent discrimination from being perpetuated and to undo the

889
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:13,359
Speaker 1: effects of past discrimination.

890
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:17,640
Speaker 7: Quitting a phrase that would later ignite fierce white backlash

891
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:21,840
Speaker 7: against civil rights North and South, Wisdom said school systems

892
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:25,399
Speaker 7: needed to move beyond ostensibly not discriminating and to take

893
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:30,719
Speaker 7: quote affirmative action to bring about a unitary, non racial system.

894
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:34,480
Speaker 7: That phrase would provide a legal foundation for school bussing

895
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:38,880
Speaker 7: as a means of genuinely integrating schools, and also introduced

896
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 7: the concept of affirmative action hiring practices in other stubborn

897
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 7: aspects of racial exclusion.

898
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:48,440
Speaker 8: The Fifth circuits record of judicial progressivism continued through the

899
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:51,920
Speaker 8: nineteen seventies. A nineteen seventy six decision by the Fifth Circuit,

900
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:55,520
Speaker 8: for instance, required public colleges and universities in Texas to

901
00:53:55,560 --> 00:54:00,320
Speaker 8: recognize gay student organizations. Meanwhile, moderate Republicans tried to persuade

902
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:04,360
Speaker 8: Richard Nixon to nominate Wisdom for the United States Supreme Court. However,

903
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:07,520
Speaker 8: Attorney General John Mitchell, who later went to prison for

904
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:11,319
Speaker 8: his role in the Watergates scandal, squashed the idea. He

905
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:14,359
Speaker 8: complained that the judge was a damn left winger who

906
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:17,560
Speaker 8: would specially be as bad as the famously liberal Chief

907
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:22,160
Speaker 8: Justice Warren. President Clinton would give Wisdom the Presidential Medal

908
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:25,920
Speaker 8: of Freedom in nineteen ninety three. Wisdom died six years later.

909
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:30,200
Speaker 8: If he miraculously returned, Wisdom would not recognize the Appeals

910
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:32,080
Speaker 8: Court that he spent so much of his life serving.

911
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 8: We'll talk about the transformation of the Fifth Circuit of Appeals,

912
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:38,120
Speaker 8: the extreme and disturbing decisions that has made since the

913
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:40,480
Speaker 8: start of the Trump era and the career of one

914
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:43,359
Speaker 8: of that court's most infamous judges, when we come back

915
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:57,399
Speaker 8: from our hopefully less infamous sponsors. In nineteen eighty one,

916
00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:01,799
Speaker 8: the federal judiciary was reorganized. The Fifth Circuit Court now

917
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:05,879
Speaker 8: heard appeals only from Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas. A new

918
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:09,840
Speaker 8: eleventh Circuit Court. Now here's cases from Alabama, Georgia, and Florida.

919
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:13,880
Speaker 8: We should provide a hopefully brief civics lesson here. The

920
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:17,880
Speaker 8: Fifth Court consists of seventeen active judges and nine senior judges.

921
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:21,400
Speaker 8: When a side loses a case in a federal district court,

922
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:23,719
Speaker 8: they can appeal to a circuit court, where the case

923
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:26,480
Speaker 8: is heard by a three judge panel. In some cases,

924
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:28,640
Speaker 8: if one side disagrees with the judgment of the panel,

925
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:31,680
Speaker 8: they may appeal the decision to the full judicial court.

926
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 7: Among the act of judges, those appointed by Republican presidents

927
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:39,720
Speaker 7: outnumber those appointed by Democrats by a margin of twelve

928
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:42,960
Speaker 7: to five. Donald Trump appointed more than a third of

929
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:47,239
Speaker 7: these judges, six in all, each of course, could serve

930
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:48,480
Speaker 7: on the court for the rest.

931
00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 2: Of their life.

932
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:52,799
Speaker 7: The Fifth Circuit also has eight senior judges who are

933
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:56,640
Speaker 7: semi retired but preside over a limited number of cases.

934
00:55:57,120 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 7: Six of them were also appointed by Republican presidents, stretching

935
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:02,160
Speaker 7: back to Ronald Reagan.

936
00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:06,799
Speaker 8: Even in that hyper conservative company, James Hoe has stood out.

937
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:10,520
Speaker 8: Mike Davis, the president of the Pro Trump Article three Project,

938
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:14,399
Speaker 8: a group dedicated to pushing federal courts further right, has said,

939
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 8: quote on every crucial but controversial legal issue, Jim Hoe

940
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 8: is constantly the tip of the spear.

941
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:25,720
Speaker 7: It has been a cliche among the American right wingers

942
00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:28,600
Speaker 7: that liberal judges fin the time of Franklin Roosevelt Laan

943
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:32,880
Speaker 7: had become judicial activists for abusing their positions on the

944
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:37,240
Speaker 7: bench to advance their political agendas rather than impartially ruling

945
00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:42,800
Speaker 7: on the law. Calling balls and strikes. Hoe's open political advocacy, however,

946
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:46,600
Speaker 7: has raised no alarms for those saying presume advocates for

947
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 7: judicial neutrality.

948
00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:52,200
Speaker 8: While he served as Texas's Solicitor General, Hoe did pro

949
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:55,920
Speaker 8: bono work for the First Liberty Institute, a Christian right

950
00:56:56,040 --> 00:57:00,359
Speaker 8: organization headquartered in Plano, Texas, just north of Dallas, that

951
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:03,000
Speaker 8: won a case for a Washington State high school football

952
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:06,319
Speaker 8: coach who was fired because he violated school policy by

953
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:09,640
Speaker 8: leading his team in prayer after each game. The group

954
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:13,040
Speaker 8: has also represented bakers who refused to make wedding cakes

955
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:14,360
Speaker 8: for same sex couples.

956
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:17,560
Speaker 7: As a judge, Hoe led a boycott of legal clerks

957
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:21,560
Speaker 7: who graduated from Yale Law School to punish that institution

958
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:26,480
Speaker 7: for its supposed leftists, cancel culture and intolerance and conservative views.

959
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 7: During his speech to the far right Heritage Foundation, the

960
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:34,480
Speaker 7: authors of Project twenty twenty five, Hoe ridiculed lawyers with

961
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:40,240
Speaker 7: fancy credentials, fancy law schools, fancy clerkships, fancy law firms,

962
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:44,360
Speaker 7: and government jobs. He claimed that issued liberal opinions for

963
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:46,439
Speaker 7: no other purpose than winning popularity.

964
00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:47,880
Speaker 2: He arged young.

965
00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:52,840
Speaker 7: Conservatives to assert themselves against the supposed popularity of political correctness.

966
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:55,640
Speaker 8: In addition to serving on the bench, Ho could be

967
00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 8: considered an activist, particularly on culture war issues like abortion.

968
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 8: He's condemned abortion as the quote immoral, tragic, and violent

969
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:07,920
Speaker 8: taking of innocent human life. In twenty eighteen, he upheld

970
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:10,400
Speaker 8: a Texas law that required the cremation or burial of

971
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:14,480
Speaker 8: fetal remains, a potentially costly burden for women receiving medical treatment,

972
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:17,800
Speaker 8: and the state of Texas argued that any potential financial

973
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 8: burdens to women or clinics were irrelevant, since the Texas

974
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:23,720
Speaker 8: Conference of Catholic Bishops made a pledge to bury the

975
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:27,080
Speaker 8: remains for low cost or even for free. Such a promise,

976
00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:28,960
Speaker 8: of course, was not legally binding.

977
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:31,960
Speaker 7: A district court overturned the law, but Hoe in the

978
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:37,840
Speaker 7: Fifths Circuit reinstated it, arguing that coarse burial protected religious

979
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:42,720
Speaker 7: freedom of the Catholic Bishops. Quote the First Amendment expressly

980
00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:46,440
Speaker 7: guarantees the free exercise of religion, including the right of

981
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:50,520
Speaker 7: bishops to express their profound objection to the moral tragedy

982
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:54,560
Speaker 7: of abortion, Hoe wrote, Texas still requires that fetal remains

983
00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:59,680
Speaker 7: receive burial or cremation. As we'll explain later, it's not

984
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:02,000
Speaker 7: only on the issue of abortion that Hoe has staked

985
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:05,920
Speaker 7: out in extreme position. In Man's first secessions, the Fifth

986
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:08,880
Speaker 7: Circuit Court, by an eight to seven vote, narrowly avoided

987
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:13,320
Speaker 7: overturning a federal gun law that prohibited interstate gun sales.

988
00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:17,840
Speaker 7: Hoe offered a bitter descent, quoting his mentor Clarence Thomas,

989
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:21,520
Speaker 7: complaining that in spite of the wide open access to

990
00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:25,280
Speaker 7: firearms in this country, the Second Amendment had become quote

991
00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:29,840
Speaker 7: a second class right. In his opinion, how ridiculed advocates

992
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:33,640
Speaker 7: of gun control is suffering from hoplophobia the irrational fear

993
00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:35,240
Speaker 7: of guns.

994
00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:38,720
Speaker 8: Hoe in the entire Fifth Circuit achieved national infamy after

995
00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:41,200
Speaker 8: the Supreme Court raised almost half a century of abortion

996
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:44,120
Speaker 8: rights when it overturned the Roe Vwaid decision in the

997
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:48,200
Speaker 8: Dobbs Vwomen's Health Organization case on June twenty fourth, twenty

998
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:50,600
Speaker 8: twenty two. A little more than a year after that

999
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:54,160
Speaker 8: landmark case, on August sixteenth, twenty twenty three, the Fifth

1000
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:58,040
Speaker 8: Circuit upheld tightened access for women to mifipristone, the so

1001
00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:00,520
Speaker 8: called abortion pill, which accounts from more than half of

1002
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:04,240
Speaker 8: all terminated pregnancies in the United States. Originally approved by

1003
01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:06,960
Speaker 8: the Food and Drug Administration in two thousand but only

1004
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:10,440
Speaker 8: for prescription by hospitals and other medical facilities, the FDA

1005
01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:13,520
Speaker 8: expanded access to the medication in twenty sixteen and gave

1006
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:17,720
Speaker 8: doctors the right to directly prescribe mifipriston in response to

1007
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:20,360
Speaker 8: the COVID nineteen pandemic. Starting in twenty twenty one, women

1008
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:21,560
Speaker 8: could receive it through the mail.

1009
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:26,360
Speaker 7: In twenty twenty for an anti abortion organization, the Alliance

1010
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:32,000
Speaker 7: or Hippocratic Medicine intentionally incorporated in twenty twenty two and Amarillo,

1011
01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 7: which placed it in the jurisdiction of the famously anti

1012
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:40,480
Speaker 7: abortion Federal District Judge Matthew J. Kasmeric. Like Judge Hoe,

1013
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:44,920
Speaker 7: Cosmeric belonged to the First Liberty Institute. While being considered

1014
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:47,800
Speaker 7: for the federal bench, he unsuccessfully tried to conceal his

1015
01:00:47,920 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 7: authorship of legal articles on gay rights he thought might

1016
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:55,520
Speaker 7: jeopardize approval of his domination by the US Senate. Cosmeric

1017
01:00:55,600 --> 01:00:59,440
Speaker 7: has described gay and trans people as mentally disordered. The

1018
01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:03,520
Speaker 7: Alliance for Hippocratic Medicine filed student Caasmerics Court seeking to

1019
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:06,960
Speaker 7: overturn the FDA's approval of mythi press Stone, even though

1020
01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:10,680
Speaker 7: decades of research had demonstrated its safety and its effectiveness

1021
01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:14,200
Speaker 7: for treating Cushing syndrome, a severe endocrine disorder.

1022
01:01:15,080 --> 01:01:16,960
Speaker 8: None of the doctors in the Alliance had ever been

1023
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:18,760
Speaker 8: involved in a medical case in which the use of

1024
01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:22,600
Speaker 8: mifiprestone had been considered. In his opinion, Kasmiric showed his

1025
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:26,240
Speaker 8: disdain for medical personnel providing women reproductive care, referring to

1026
01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:30,640
Speaker 8: them as quote abortionists and called terminating pregnancy through medication quote,

1027
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:33,120
Speaker 8: starving the unborn human until death.

1028
01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:37,920
Speaker 7: Courts require that parties have what just is called standing

1029
01:01:38,120 --> 01:01:41,160
Speaker 7: in order to file a lawsuit. That means, for instance,

1030
01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:44,040
Speaker 7: that one party has been in some way directly injured

1031
01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:47,479
Speaker 7: by the other party. President Joe Biden's Food and Drug

1032
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:50,640
Speaker 7: Administra I should question how the doctors in the Alliance

1033
01:01:50,680 --> 01:01:53,880
Speaker 7: for Hippocratic Medicine had in any way been directly harmed

1034
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:58,120
Speaker 7: Because women have access to abortion medications, Chasmeric found a

1035
01:01:58,120 --> 01:02:01,800
Speaker 7: fans full way to grant the alliance a right to sue.

1036
01:02:02,160 --> 01:02:06,160
Speaker 7: He claimed that treating the rare complications from Mytha pristone

1037
01:02:06,240 --> 01:02:10,400
Speaker 7: overwhelmed hospitals in placed quote enormous pressure and stress on

1038
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:15,960
Speaker 7: the doctors during emergencies and complications. After granting the alliance standing,

1039
01:02:16,280 --> 01:02:20,040
Speaker 7: Chasmeric issued a preliminary injunction suspending the FDA's approval of

1040
01:02:20,080 --> 01:02:22,800
Speaker 7: the drug. The decision would go into effect in seven

1041
01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:24,919
Speaker 7: days in order to give the federal government a chance

1042
01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:28,080
Speaker 7: to file an appeal. In his decision, Cosmeric cited two

1043
01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:30,880
Speaker 7: studies that claimed the drug was harmful, but both had

1044
01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:34,600
Speaker 7: been retracted by a medical journal. In effect, Chasmeric had

1045
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:38,840
Speaker 7: banned MiFi pristone nationwide. The United States Justice Department and

1046
01:02:38,920 --> 01:02:42,640
Speaker 7: dan CO Laboratories mif for pristone's manufacturer appealed, and the

1047
01:02:42,680 --> 01:02:47,520
Speaker 7: case went to the Fifth Circuit. Judicial chaos surrounding the

1048
01:02:47,520 --> 01:02:52,120
Speaker 7: status of Mytha pristone reigned within hours, as ABC seven

1049
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:54,240
Speaker 7: in Los Angeles reported.

1050
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:57,440
Speaker 11: In a judicial bombshell involving abortion that could have an

1051
01:02:57,480 --> 01:03:01,360
Speaker 11: impact in all fifty states, a Texas federal judge revoking

1052
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:04,680
Speaker 11: FDA approval of an abortion pill that's been used for

1053
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:07,760
Speaker 11: more than twenty years, but another federal judge in Washington

1054
01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:11,600
Speaker 11: State then issuing a contradictory ruling, setting up another major

1055
01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:12,400
Speaker 11: battle over.

1056
01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:13,440
Speaker 5: A woman's right to choose.

1057
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:16,400
Speaker 11: I went aso's reporter Amy Powell, joining us live in

1058
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:18,920
Speaker 11: studio with more tonight, Amy and Michelle.

1059
01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:20,480
Speaker 4: This is causing a lot of concern.

1060
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:23,439
Speaker 12: The reversal of Roe versus Weighed by the Supreme Court

1061
01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:26,200
Speaker 12: was supposed to mean that abortion laws would be left

1062
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:29,840
Speaker 12: up to individual states, but today a Texas federal judge

1063
01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:32,880
Speaker 12: issued a ruling that could end access to an abortion

1064
01:03:32,960 --> 01:03:36,960
Speaker 12: pill in all fifty states. Shortly after the Texas judge

1065
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:40,440
Speaker 12: issued his decision, a judge in Washington State issued a

1066
01:03:40,520 --> 01:03:43,640
Speaker 12: ruling ordering the FDA to make no changes to the

1067
01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:47,880
Speaker 12: availability of MiFi pristone. Those conflicting orders mean this case

1068
01:03:48,040 --> 01:03:51,040
Speaker 12: is likely to end up in the Supreme Court.

1069
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:54,640
Speaker 8: The mifipristone case went to the Fifth Circuit, where Judge

1070
01:03:54,640 --> 01:03:58,840
Speaker 8: Ho would write an opinion critics characterized as disturbing, baffling,

1071
01:03:59,160 --> 01:04:01,959
Speaker 8: and bizarre. We'll talk about what happened in the Miffi

1072
01:04:01,960 --> 01:04:05,280
Speaker 8: pristone case and how Judge Hoe, an immigrant himself, has

1073
01:04:05,280 --> 01:04:08,000
Speaker 8: suggested that the children of migrants might not be eligible

1074
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:10,840
Speaker 8: for birthright citizenship because of the United States is, in

1075
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:14,320
Speaker 8: his words, being invaded. But first we'll hear some, hopefully

1076
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:26,080
Speaker 8: not two bizarre messages from our sponsors.

1077
01:04:27,080 --> 01:04:30,120
Speaker 7: When the Fifth Circuit heard the appeal of Kasmeric's ruling,

1078
01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:33,760
Speaker 7: Hoe didn't recuse himself from the case, even though his wife, Allison,

1079
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:37,800
Speaker 7: a lawyer, has repeatedly appeared at events sponsored by the

1080
01:04:37,840 --> 01:04:41,800
Speaker 7: Alliance Defending Freedom, one of the litigants, and even received

1081
01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:46,200
Speaker 7: speaking fees from the organization. Hoe brushed off this obvious.

1082
01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:49,760
Speaker 8: Conflict of interest on August sixteenth, twenty twenty three. That

1083
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:53,520
Speaker 8: court didn't completely uphold Chismeric's ruling, but it did impose

1084
01:04:53,600 --> 01:04:57,240
Speaker 8: numerous restrictions on the abortion pill called MiFi pristone, claiming

1085
01:04:57,240 --> 01:05:00,200
Speaker 8: that the FDA didn't fully consider its potential health risks.

1086
01:05:01,080 --> 01:05:03,680
Speaker 8: If the Supreme Court had upheld the Fifth Circuit's opinion,

1087
01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:06,440
Speaker 8: women would not have been allowed to receive a prescription

1088
01:05:06,480 --> 01:05:09,640
Speaker 8: through the mail after online medical appointments. They would have

1089
01:05:09,680 --> 01:05:13,000
Speaker 8: been able to receive the prescription only after a direct

1090
01:05:13,120 --> 01:05:15,760
Speaker 8: visit with the doctor and after three in person follow

1091
01:05:15,840 --> 01:05:18,840
Speaker 8: up appointments. The window in which women would have been

1092
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:20,760
Speaker 8: allowed to take mif for pristown would have been cut

1093
01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:24,040
Speaker 8: from seventy days of pregnancy to about forty nine.

1094
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:28,680
Speaker 7: Hoe wanted to go much further than the Fifth Circuit's majority.

1095
01:05:28,800 --> 01:05:31,680
Speaker 7: He wanted to rescind the FDA's approval a myth for

1096
01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:34,240
Speaker 7: press though, which would have removed the drug from the

1097
01:05:34,240 --> 01:05:38,360
Speaker 7: market entirely. When judges agree with a majority on a panel,

1098
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:41,080
Speaker 7: they can write a concurring opinion that gives them a

1099
01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:44,439
Speaker 7: chance to grandstand about a case. This is what Hoe

1100
01:05:44,480 --> 01:05:47,520
Speaker 7: did in his concurrence when he bitterly complained that some

1101
01:05:47,720 --> 01:05:50,960
Speaker 7: believed that quote no one should ever question the FDA.

1102
01:05:51,960 --> 01:05:54,680
Speaker 8: Hoe then asked the public to pity the obstetricians, he

1103
01:05:54,720 --> 01:05:58,640
Speaker 8: claimed suffer because of women's abortion rights. Pe drew on

1104
01:05:58,760 --> 01:06:01,160
Speaker 8: environmental case law, which acknowledges that a member of the

1105
01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:04,760
Speaker 8: public might believe that they've suffered a loss when, for instance,

1106
01:06:04,880 --> 01:06:09,080
Speaker 8: a park is destroyed because it is the location of

1107
01:06:09,400 --> 01:06:12,240
Speaker 8: a new mining operation, and then they can sue on

1108
01:06:12,320 --> 01:06:15,560
Speaker 8: that basis. Hoe argued that doctors could suffer the same

1109
01:06:15,600 --> 01:06:19,520
Speaker 8: sort of damages when a pregnancy is medically ended. In

1110
01:06:19,560 --> 01:06:22,320
Speaker 8: his concurrence on MIFH Pristowe, Hoe wrote the following.

1111
01:06:22,880 --> 01:06:26,440
Speaker 1: Unborn babies are a source of profound joy for those

1112
01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:32,080
Speaker 1: who view them. Expectant parents eagerly share ultrasound photos with

1113
01:06:32,240 --> 01:06:36,320
Speaker 1: loved ones, friends and family cheer at the sight of

1114
01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:40,880
Speaker 1: an unborn child, and doctors delight in working with their

1115
01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:46,480
Speaker 1: unborn patients and experience an esthetic injury when they are aborted.

1116
01:06:47,640 --> 01:06:50,480
Speaker 7: Leo Yu is an assistant professor of law at the

1117
01:06:50,560 --> 01:06:55,160
Speaker 7: University of Massachusetts at Dartmouth. It specializes in civil rights law.

1118
01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:59,640
Speaker 7: You actually receive law degrees in two countries. Is Native

1119
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:03,400
Speaker 7: China and in the United States at Southern Messogist University

1120
01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:06,560
Speaker 7: in Dallas. While he lived in Texas, he lived under

1121
01:07:06,560 --> 01:07:09,840
Speaker 7: the jurisdiction of the Fifth Circuit and saw close hand

1122
01:07:09,880 --> 01:07:13,080
Speaker 7: the legal chaos. The Fifth Circuit is created in the

1123
01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:17,040
Speaker 7: states of Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi. In twenty twenty one, he

1124
01:07:17,120 --> 01:07:21,720
Speaker 7: created a podcast, Plead the Fifth Professor. You believes that

1125
01:07:21,760 --> 01:07:25,280
Speaker 7: when Hoe writes extreme opinions, such as in the Mesaprostone case,

1126
01:07:25,640 --> 01:07:28,360
Speaker 7: he's desperately trying to get one man's attention.

1127
01:07:29,000 --> 01:07:32,600
Speaker 13: He is auditioning all the time to the Supreme Court,

1128
01:07:32,680 --> 01:07:36,040
Speaker 13: and he went so far to create something that is

1129
01:07:36,200 --> 01:07:39,840
Speaker 13: quite honestly just not even sensible. It's like, you know,

1130
01:07:40,120 --> 01:07:45,040
Speaker 13: Peopaul wants to see cute little, you know, ultrasounds of babies,

1131
01:07:45,080 --> 01:07:47,760
Speaker 13: and that makes important, you know, of them having the

1132
01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:51,160
Speaker 13: standing to challenge abortion pills, that they wouldn't be able

1133
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:55,160
Speaker 13: to see those cute little alta sounds anymore. And it

1134
01:07:55,360 --> 01:07:59,360
Speaker 13: just that part of rationale is quite just insane.

1135
01:07:59,640 --> 01:08:00,800
Speaker 4: I think that part.

1136
01:08:00,960 --> 01:08:03,560
Speaker 13: I don't know if that is something that he truly believed,

1137
01:08:03,640 --> 01:08:06,640
Speaker 13: And I would say that it's hard to imagine for

1138
01:08:06,720 --> 01:08:11,240
Speaker 13: anybody who truly believed that sort of analysis. So I

1139
01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:14,840
Speaker 13: put that part of analysis as another way from justice

1140
01:08:14,840 --> 01:08:18,559
Speaker 13: hold trying to audition for the Supreme Court like, Hey,

1141
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:21,519
Speaker 13: you think you found a concern to the judge somewhere

1142
01:08:21,520 --> 01:08:22,559
Speaker 13: in DC, Look at me.

1143
01:08:22,680 --> 01:08:25,120
Speaker 5: I'm even more. And that's what it is.

1144
01:08:25,960 --> 01:08:28,240
Speaker 8: No one would accuse the United States Supreme Court under

1145
01:08:28,320 --> 01:08:32,519
Speaker 8: John Roberts of being moderate, but repeatedly Roberts and the

1146
01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:34,920
Speaker 8: other justices have taken the Fifth Circuit to task for

1147
01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:38,800
Speaker 8: going to extremes in its ruling. As Texas Tribune writer

1148
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:42,960
Speaker 8: Eleanor Klibanoff put it, quote, if the Fifth US Circuit

1149
01:08:43,080 --> 01:08:45,559
Speaker 8: Court of Appeals was a boxer, you'd bet on the

1150
01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:46,000
Speaker 8: other guy.

1151
01:08:46,920 --> 01:08:50,000
Speaker 7: Writing a Supreme Court's reaction of Fifth Circuit rulings in

1152
01:08:50,280 --> 01:08:54,160
Speaker 7: July twenty twenty four, Clibanoff noted that only three of

1153
01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:58,480
Speaker 7: the tribunal's decisions had been upheld, while eight had been overturned,

1154
01:08:58,960 --> 01:09:02,120
Speaker 7: a one lost record that ranked amongst the worst among

1155
01:09:02,240 --> 01:09:05,800
Speaker 7: circuit courts in the country. In a meth of pristone case,

1156
01:09:06,320 --> 01:09:10,200
Speaker 7: just as Brett Kavanaugh, hardly a Bolshevik, expressed dismay that

1157
01:09:10,240 --> 01:09:13,760
Speaker 7: the Alliance for Hippocratic Medicine had been granted standing.

1158
01:09:13,960 --> 01:09:18,240
Speaker 8: Kavanaugh wrote this quote for a plaintiff to get in

1159
01:09:18,240 --> 01:09:21,559
Speaker 8: the federal courthouse door and obtain a judicial determination of

1160
01:09:21,560 --> 01:09:24,240
Speaker 8: what the governing law is. The plaintiff cannot be a

1161
01:09:24,280 --> 01:09:27,519
Speaker 8: mere bystander, but instead must have a personal stake in

1162
01:09:27,560 --> 01:09:31,200
Speaker 8: the dispute end quote. If the standard set by Judge

1163
01:09:31,200 --> 01:09:35,559
Speaker 8: hon his peers in New Orleans remained in place, Kavanaugh warned, quote,

1164
01:09:35,680 --> 01:09:38,960
Speaker 8: virtually every citizen would have standing to challenge virtually every

1165
01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:42,960
Speaker 8: government action that they do not like. Governing, he suggested,

1166
01:09:43,200 --> 01:09:44,240
Speaker 8: would become impossible.

1167
01:09:44,960 --> 01:09:46,920
Speaker 7: It wasn't just on the issue of legal standing that

1168
01:09:46,960 --> 01:09:50,320
Speaker 7: the Supreme Court found the Fifth Circuit Court's judgment lacking.

1169
01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:53,400
Speaker 7: In the case of Rahemi versus the United States, the

1170
01:09:53,400 --> 01:09:57,960
Speaker 7: Fifth Circuit overturned a federal law that prohibited domestic abusers

1171
01:09:57,960 --> 01:10:02,240
Speaker 7: from buying firearms. The Highest Court on June twenty first,

1172
01:10:02,320 --> 01:10:05,519
Speaker 7: twenty twenty four, overturned that decision by an eight to

1173
01:10:05,560 --> 01:10:09,920
Speaker 7: one margin. Chief Justice John Roberts, who generally supports a

1174
01:10:10,040 --> 01:10:13,080
Speaker 7: very broad view of gun right, said that history quote

1175
01:10:13,400 --> 01:10:18,040
Speaker 7: confirms what common sense suggests. When an individual poses a

1176
01:10:18,040 --> 01:10:22,200
Speaker 7: clear threat of physical violence to another, the threatening individual

1177
01:10:22,439 --> 01:10:26,679
Speaker 7: may be disarmed. Roberts also suggested that the Fifth Circuit

1178
01:10:27,080 --> 01:10:31,240
Speaker 7: misunderstood the Supreme Court's view of the Second Amendment. Fusser,

1179
01:10:31,360 --> 01:10:34,639
Speaker 7: you told us that as conservative as Supreme Court majority

1180
01:10:34,720 --> 01:10:37,800
Speaker 7: might be, outside of Clarence Thomas, they have found the

1181
01:10:37,800 --> 01:10:42,520
Speaker 7: Fifth Circuit's rulings to be an embarrassment conservative judicial philosophy.

1182
01:10:43,080 --> 01:10:44,840
Speaker 13: On that again, I think that was the a to

1183
01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:47,720
Speaker 13: one opinion, and Clarence Thomas was the only person who

1184
01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:50,439
Speaker 13: would agree was the Fifth Circus. So in general, I

1185
01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:55,360
Speaker 13: think the Supreme Court is definitely conservative. But the Supreme

1186
01:10:55,439 --> 01:11:00,479
Speaker 13: Court appreciate a certain type of conservativeness that they can shounon,

1187
01:11:00,760 --> 01:11:03,880
Speaker 13: and it is something that it can lays with some

1188
01:11:03,960 --> 01:11:10,640
Speaker 13: academic legitimacy and knowledges, some sort of attention seeking paragraphed

1189
01:11:10,840 --> 01:11:14,160
Speaker 13: that would make people hold feel some sort of feeling.

1190
01:11:15,280 --> 01:11:17,200
Speaker 8: On the last day of its twenty twenty four session,

1191
01:11:17,600 --> 01:11:19,840
Speaker 8: the Supreme Court sent back to the Fifth Circuit a

1192
01:11:19,920 --> 01:11:22,759
Speaker 8: case involving a twenty twenty one Texas law that limited

1193
01:11:22,760 --> 01:11:25,639
Speaker 8: the ability of social media companies to suspend user accounts

1194
01:11:25,680 --> 01:11:29,559
Speaker 8: for extremist or violence inciting content. The law was inspired

1195
01:11:29,560 --> 01:11:32,519
Speaker 8: by the decision of what was then called Twitter and

1196
01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:36,160
Speaker 8: now x, as well as other social media companies to

1197
01:11:36,360 --> 01:11:39,680
Speaker 8: deplatform Donald Trump after the president encouraged his supporters to

1198
01:11:39,800 --> 01:11:43,320
Speaker 8: ransack the Capital and stop the counting of electoral college boats.

1199
01:11:43,400 --> 01:11:46,879
Speaker 8: On January sixth, twenty twenty one, the Fifth Circuit previously

1200
01:11:46,960 --> 01:11:50,120
Speaker 8: upheld the law, claiming that it rejected quote the idea

1201
01:11:50,200 --> 01:11:52,960
Speaker 8: that corporations have a free, willing, First Amendment right to

1202
01:11:53,040 --> 01:11:54,120
Speaker 8: censor what people say.

1203
01:11:54,960 --> 01:11:57,760
Speaker 7: Ho and his allies on the Fifth Circuit, however, our

1204
01:11:57,840 --> 01:12:02,160
Speaker 7: find was censoring free expression by members of the LGBTQ community.

1205
01:12:02,720 --> 01:12:06,200
Speaker 7: In March twenty twenty three, Walter Wendler, the president of

1206
01:12:06,280 --> 01:12:10,559
Speaker 7: West Texas A and M University, a public institution, cancel

1207
01:12:10,600 --> 01:12:14,479
Speaker 7: at drag shows schedule at Legacy Hall, a campus building.

1208
01:12:15,479 --> 01:12:18,599
Speaker 7: Organizers plan to use proceeds from the performance to raise

1209
01:12:18,640 --> 01:12:22,040
Speaker 7: money for the Trevor Project, a nonprofit group that seeks

1210
01:12:22,080 --> 01:12:26,240
Speaker 7: to prevent suicides in the LGBTQ plus community. In a

1211
01:12:26,280 --> 01:12:30,679
Speaker 7: statement canceling the show, Wendler explicitly said that his private

1212
01:12:30,760 --> 01:12:33,480
Speaker 7: religious beliefs guided his decision.

1213
01:12:34,320 --> 01:12:37,760
Speaker 1: West Texas A and M University will not host a

1214
01:12:37,840 --> 01:12:41,760
Speaker 1: drag show on campus. I believe every human being is

1215
01:12:41,840 --> 01:12:45,559
Speaker 1: created in the image of God, and therefore a person

1216
01:12:45,640 --> 01:12:50,120
Speaker 1: of dignity. Does a drag show reserve a single thread

1217
01:12:50,200 --> 01:12:55,560
Speaker 1: of human dignity? I think not. As a performance exaggerating

1218
01:12:55,720 --> 01:13:03,719
Speaker 1: aspects of womanhood, sexuality, femininity, gender. Drag shows stereotype women

1219
01:13:04,280 --> 01:13:09,439
Speaker 1: in cartoon like extremes for the amusement of others, and

1220
01:13:09,640 --> 01:13:17,680
Speaker 1: discriminate against womanhood. Drag shows are derisive, divisive, and demoralizing misogyny.

1221
01:13:18,240 --> 01:13:23,080
Speaker 1: No matter what the stated intent, such conduct runs counter

1222
01:13:23,520 --> 01:13:27,200
Speaker 1: to the purpose of West Texas A and M. A

1223
01:13:27,240 --> 01:13:30,840
Speaker 1: person or group should not attempt to elevate itself or

1224
01:13:30,880 --> 01:13:35,800
Speaker 1: a cause by mocking another person or group. As a

1225
01:13:35,920 --> 01:13:41,479
Speaker 1: university president, I would not support blackface performances on our campus,

1226
01:13:42,200 --> 01:13:45,599
Speaker 1: even if told the performance is a form of free

1227
01:13:45,600 --> 01:13:49,759
Speaker 1: speech or intended as humor, it is wrong.

1228
01:13:50,920 --> 01:13:55,599
Speaker 8: Spectrum WT, a pro LGBTQ student organization, file a suit

1229
01:13:55,680 --> 01:13:59,120
Speaker 8: challenging the band and requested an injunction blocking Wendler's action.

1230
01:14:00,160 --> 01:14:03,400
Speaker 8: Judge Kasmirick, the same jurist who initially blocked access to

1231
01:14:03,439 --> 01:14:06,720
Speaker 8: MiFi pristone, sided with West Texas A and M and

1232
01:14:06,800 --> 01:14:09,760
Speaker 8: issued a preliminary ruling preventing the drag show from taking

1233
01:14:09,800 --> 01:14:13,919
Speaker 8: place pending a trial. He said the performance supposed sexual

1234
01:14:13,960 --> 01:14:18,400
Speaker 8: content lacked free speech protections quote the First Amendment does

1235
01:14:18,439 --> 01:14:21,640
Speaker 8: not prevent school officials from restricting vulgar and lewd conduct

1236
01:14:21,880 --> 01:14:26,000
Speaker 8: that would undermine the school's basic educational mission, particularly in

1237
01:14:26,040 --> 01:14:28,800
Speaker 8: settings where children are physically present, Cosmeric wrote in his

1238
01:14:28,840 --> 01:14:30,920
Speaker 8: September twenty two to twenty twenty three opinion.

1239
01:14:31,640 --> 01:14:35,639
Speaker 7: Spectrum w T appealed. The case went to the Fifth Circuit,

1240
01:14:35,640 --> 01:14:39,080
Speaker 7: where three judge panel heard arguments on whether the fundraiser

1241
01:14:39,120 --> 01:14:42,960
Speaker 7: could proceed. On August eighteenth, twenty twenty five, by two

1242
01:14:42,960 --> 01:14:48,720
Speaker 7: to one vote, the panel reversed Kasmeric's ruling. Judge Leslie Southwick,

1243
01:14:48,800 --> 01:14:52,439
Speaker 7: a George W. Bush appointee, and a Bill Clinton appointed

1244
01:14:52,560 --> 01:14:56,160
Speaker 7: US Circuit Judge James Dennis ruled that West Texas A

1245
01:14:56,200 --> 01:14:59,880
Speaker 7: and M had violated the gay student organization's expressive right.

1246
01:15:00,840 --> 01:15:04,800
Speaker 8: Predictably, Hoe dissented. He simply echoed the arguments used by

1247
01:15:04,840 --> 01:15:09,520
Speaker 8: the university president, insisting that banning drag shows somehow advanced inclusivity.

1248
01:15:10,240 --> 01:15:14,559
Speaker 1: University officials have determined that drag shows are sexists for

1249
01:15:14,680 --> 01:15:19,519
Speaker 1: the same reason that blackface performances are racist, and Supreme

1250
01:15:19,560 --> 01:15:24,240
Speaker 1: Court precedent demands that we respect university officials when it

1251
01:15:24,280 --> 01:15:29,920
Speaker 1: comes to regulating student activities to ensure an inclusive educational

1252
01:15:30,040 --> 01:15:32,000
Speaker 1: environment for all.

1253
01:15:32,160 --> 01:15:36,240
Speaker 8: Spectrum wt's victory proved temporary. The panel's decision would not

1254
01:15:36,320 --> 01:15:38,360
Speaker 8: go into effect until the case was heard by the

1255
01:15:38,520 --> 01:15:42,360
Speaker 8: entire Fifth Circuit Court. Meanwhile, a full trial unfolded in

1256
01:15:42,439 --> 01:15:46,160
Speaker 8: Kasmirics Court in January. Not surprisingly, he ruled in favor

1257
01:15:46,200 --> 01:15:48,400
Speaker 8: of West Texas A and M. He said that the

1258
01:15:48,400 --> 01:15:50,639
Speaker 8: student group had not proven that the show was meant

1259
01:15:50,680 --> 01:15:52,720
Speaker 8: to convey a message that might be protected by the

1260
01:15:52,720 --> 01:15:55,720
Speaker 8: First Amendment, and that by their nature, drag shows have

1261
01:15:55,800 --> 01:15:59,240
Speaker 8: sexualized content and the university had the right to regulate

1262
01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:03,040
Speaker 8: on campus grounds. The hearing before the full Fifth Circuit

1263
01:16:03,120 --> 01:16:06,800
Speaker 8: was canceled, although Spectrum's legal team at the Foundation for

1264
01:16:06,840 --> 01:16:11,320
Speaker 8: Individual Rights and Expression plans a different appeal. On twenty fifth,

1265
01:16:11,640 --> 01:16:13,800
Speaker 8: a panel of the Fifth Circuit also upheld a new

1266
01:16:13,840 --> 01:16:17,679
Speaker 8: state ban on certain types of drag performances. Judge Kurt Engelhardt,

1267
01:16:17,720 --> 01:16:20,759
Speaker 8: appointed to the Fifth Circuit by President Donald Trump, expressed

1268
01:16:20,840 --> 01:16:23,879
Speaker 8: doubt that such shows were protected by the Constitution, especially

1269
01:16:23,920 --> 01:16:26,280
Speaker 8: said quote in the presence of miners.

1270
01:16:27,200 --> 01:16:30,200
Speaker 7: While the Fifth Circuit chipped away at free speech rights

1271
01:16:30,280 --> 01:16:33,960
Speaker 7: or the LGBTQ plus community, the advanced the rights of

1272
01:16:34,040 --> 01:16:38,080
Speaker 7: states to impose speech on public school teachers. The full

1273
01:16:38,120 --> 01:16:41,320
Speaker 7: court by a twelve to sixth margin, lifted a district

1274
01:16:41,360 --> 01:16:44,640
Speaker 7: court's hold on a Louisiana state law requiring teachers to

1275
01:16:44,680 --> 01:16:48,320
Speaker 7: display post or size copies of the Ten Commandments in

1276
01:16:48,360 --> 01:16:52,320
Speaker 7: public school classrooms in spite of the First Amendments prohibition

1277
01:16:52,600 --> 01:16:57,479
Speaker 7: establishing a state religion or requiring religious practice in the

1278
01:16:57,479 --> 01:17:00,200
Speaker 7: efforts of the founders of the American Republic, liked time Ms.

1279
01:17:00,320 --> 01:17:03,599
Speaker 7: Jefferson direct a wall of separation between church and state.

1280
01:17:04,280 --> 01:17:08,519
Speaker 7: James Host celebrated the decision. The Louisiana law was the

1281
01:17:08,600 --> 01:17:13,200
Speaker 7: only constitutional Host said it quote affirms our nation's highest

1282
01:17:13,240 --> 01:17:17,639
Speaker 7: and most noble traditions. That claim left Professor u baffled.

1283
01:17:18,240 --> 01:17:21,960
Speaker 13: The question is is he a historian when he said

1284
01:17:22,040 --> 01:17:25,160
Speaker 13: that the founding members of this country would like that?

1285
01:17:25,479 --> 01:17:27,800
Speaker 5: What historical record is he relying on?

1286
01:17:28,479 --> 01:17:32,040
Speaker 13: But isn't that even anti common knowledge that our founders

1287
01:17:32,120 --> 01:17:37,120
Speaker 13: would really resent that To push our newly establed republic

1288
01:17:37,439 --> 01:17:40,880
Speaker 13: to a situation where we push our citizens to bleeding

1289
01:17:40,920 --> 01:17:44,320
Speaker 13: certain things religiously, that is exactly the reason why they

1290
01:17:44,400 --> 01:17:45,360
Speaker 13: left Europe.

1291
01:17:46,360 --> 01:17:48,760
Speaker 8: The Fifth Circuit has presented a threat not only to

1292
01:17:49,160 --> 01:17:52,640
Speaker 8: the separation of church and state, free speech, and LGBTQ

1293
01:17:52,720 --> 01:17:55,679
Speaker 8: plus rights, but it's also placed the rights of workers

1294
01:17:55,680 --> 01:17:59,519
Speaker 8: in its crosshairs. On Angust nineteenth, the United States Fifth

1295
01:17:59,560 --> 01:18:02,880
Speaker 8: Circuit of Appeals upheld an injunction requested by attorneys for

1296
01:18:03,000 --> 01:18:06,720
Speaker 8: Elon Musk's SpaceX Corporation, ruling that the structure of the

1297
01:18:06,800 --> 01:18:11,160
Speaker 8: National Labor Relations Board is unconstitutional and prohibiting it from

1298
01:18:11,200 --> 01:18:15,200
Speaker 8: acting against that company and two other corporations the NLRB

1299
01:18:15,400 --> 01:18:19,680
Speaker 8: charged with labor law violations. As has often happened, the

1300
01:18:19,720 --> 01:18:23,120
Speaker 8: Fifth Circuit court ruling conflicts with that of another circuit court,

1301
01:18:23,280 --> 01:18:26,799
Speaker 8: the Ninth Circuit, which upheld the power granted by the NLRB.

1302
01:18:27,439 --> 01:18:29,800
Speaker 8: This split almost certainly guarantees the case will end up

1303
01:18:29,800 --> 01:18:31,640
Speaker 8: in front of a Supreme Court that has been no

1304
01:18:31,760 --> 01:18:33,080
Speaker 8: friend of American workers.

1305
01:18:34,160 --> 01:18:38,040
Speaker 7: On rare occasions, the Fifth Circuit might still acknowledge as

1306
01:18:38,080 --> 01:18:40,840
Speaker 7: society is tilted against the poor and people of color.

1307
01:18:42,040 --> 01:18:45,160
Speaker 7: A panel made up of Fifth Circuit judges ruled that

1308
01:18:45,320 --> 01:18:49,240
Speaker 7: Lebine Conan could proceed with our lawsuit against the United

1309
01:18:49,240 --> 01:18:53,840
Speaker 7: States Post Office, a landlord who owns two properties in Uless,

1310
01:18:53,880 --> 01:18:57,599
Speaker 7: a suburb between Dallas and for Worth. Conan claimed that,

1311
01:18:57,680 --> 01:19:02,280
Speaker 7: beginning in twenty twenty two, law postal employees abruptly stopped

1312
01:19:02,280 --> 01:19:05,320
Speaker 7: delivering mail, first to her and then to her tenants,

1313
01:19:05,640 --> 01:19:08,040
Speaker 7: because she said they didn't like the idea that a

1314
01:19:08,080 --> 01:19:09,840
Speaker 7: black person owned the properties.

1315
01:19:10,400 --> 01:19:13,680
Speaker 8: The Post Office is mostly shielded from lawsuits by a

1316
01:19:13,760 --> 01:19:18,559
Speaker 8: legal doctrine called sovereign immunity, under which, as legal analyst

1317
01:19:18,640 --> 01:19:21,679
Speaker 8: Ellie ms Dall explains, quote, the government cannot be held

1318
01:19:21,680 --> 01:19:24,720
Speaker 8: liable for monetary damages arising out of actions taken by

1319
01:19:24,720 --> 01:19:27,719
Speaker 8: the government. What was unique about the United States Postal

1320
01:19:27,760 --> 01:19:31,240
Speaker 8: Service Bucanan case, however, was that in this circumstance, the

1321
01:19:31,280 --> 01:19:35,160
Speaker 8: government was causing intentional damage to a private citizen. This time,

1322
01:19:35,200 --> 01:19:38,040
Speaker 8: the Fifth Circuit ruled in favor of a marginalized citizen

1323
01:19:38,160 --> 01:19:41,400
Speaker 8: and ruled the suit could go forward. This rare progressive

1324
01:19:41,479 --> 01:19:44,960
Speaker 8: ruling was for not. However, the Supreme Court overturned the

1325
01:19:45,000 --> 01:19:48,840
Speaker 8: Fifth Circuit once again. Clarence Thomas wrote the opinion for

1326
01:19:48,880 --> 01:19:52,320
Speaker 8: the five four majority, essentially ruling, as miss Stalls summarized

1327
01:19:52,360 --> 01:19:56,280
Speaker 8: the case, quote that the post officers immune from liability

1328
01:19:56,680 --> 01:20:00,120
Speaker 8: even when its workers intentionally refused to do their jobs.

1329
01:20:00,720 --> 01:20:05,120
Speaker 8: Misstall suggested that this decision carries ominous implications for the

1330
01:20:05,200 --> 01:20:09,240
Speaker 8: upcoming election should the US Postal Service, for instance, refuse

1331
01:20:09,280 --> 01:20:13,000
Speaker 8: to deliver mail in ballots in spite of james Hosts

1332
01:20:13,000 --> 01:20:16,120
Speaker 8: status as an immigrant. His most alarming opinion might be

1333
01:20:16,160 --> 01:20:20,720
Speaker 8: regarding birthright citizenship. Ratified in eighteen sixty eight, just three

1334
01:20:20,800 --> 01:20:23,360
Speaker 8: years after the end of the Civil War, fourteenth Amendment

1335
01:20:23,400 --> 01:20:25,920
Speaker 8: to the United States Constitution declares in its opening sentence

1336
01:20:26,000 --> 01:20:29,759
Speaker 8: that quote, all persons born or naturalized in the United States,

1337
01:20:29,960 --> 01:20:32,960
Speaker 8: and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the

1338
01:20:33,040 --> 01:20:36,120
Speaker 8: United States and of the state wherein they reside. For

1339
01:20:36,120 --> 01:20:38,679
Speaker 8: one hundred and twenty eight years, Supreme Court has rejected

1340
01:20:38,800 --> 01:20:42,400
Speaker 8: claims that citizenship can be denied to persons born or

1341
01:20:42,479 --> 01:20:46,280
Speaker 8: naturalized here based on their race or the immigration status

1342
01:20:46,280 --> 01:20:49,559
Speaker 8: of their parents. In the eighteen ninety eight United States

1343
01:20:49,680 --> 01:20:53,360
Speaker 8: versus Huang Kim Ar case, the Supreme Court upheld the

1344
01:20:53,400 --> 01:20:55,920
Speaker 8: citizenship of a man born in the United States to

1345
01:20:56,000 --> 01:21:00,479
Speaker 8: Chinese parents. The government tried to block Arc from returning

1346
01:21:00,520 --> 01:21:03,800
Speaker 8: to the United States after he visited China, based on

1347
01:21:03,880 --> 01:21:07,600
Speaker 8: the eighteen a two Chinese Exclusion Act, which barred the

1348
01:21:07,720 --> 01:21:11,519
Speaker 8: Chinese from immigrating here. The Court ruled sixth to two

1349
01:21:11,600 --> 01:21:15,080
Speaker 8: that ARC's birth in the United States established his American

1350
01:21:15,160 --> 01:21:19,840
Speaker 8: citizenship and his right to reside here. James Hoe has

1351
01:21:19,880 --> 01:21:23,360
Speaker 8: not always attacked the concept of birthright citizenship, and in fact,

1352
01:21:23,439 --> 01:21:24,400
Speaker 8: he used to defend it.

1353
01:21:24,840 --> 01:21:25,400
Speaker 5: Quote.

1354
01:21:25,640 --> 01:21:28,640
Speaker 8: Birthright citizenship is a constitutional right no less for the

1355
01:21:28,720 --> 01:21:32,240
Speaker 8: children of undocumented persons than for the descendants of passengers

1356
01:21:32,400 --> 01:21:34,680
Speaker 8: of the Mayflower, Hoe said in a two thousand and

1357
01:21:34,680 --> 01:21:37,080
Speaker 8: seven opinion piece for the Des Moines Registered.

1358
01:21:38,120 --> 01:21:41,799
Speaker 7: However, as the political wins shifted strongly against immigrants, particularly

1359
01:21:41,840 --> 01:21:44,960
Speaker 7: in the Trump era, Hoe is also tilted in a

1360
01:21:45,040 --> 01:21:49,439
Speaker 7: dramatically different direction. In a twenty twenty four interview, Hoe

1361
01:21:49,479 --> 01:21:51,800
Speaker 7: claimed that the United States was being invaded by the

1362
01:21:51,840 --> 01:21:55,640
Speaker 7: foreign born, and that denying citizenship to the children of

1363
01:21:55,680 --> 01:21:59,640
Speaker 7: the undocumented was necessary to defend national sovereignty.

1364
01:22:00,479 --> 01:22:06,120
Speaker 1: Hoe said, birthright citizenship obviously doesn't apply in case of

1365
01:22:06,240 --> 01:22:10,920
Speaker 1: war or invasion. No one, to my knowledge has ever

1366
01:22:11,080 --> 01:22:15,360
Speaker 1: argued that the children of invading aliens are entitled to

1367
01:22:15,479 --> 01:22:20,559
Speaker 1: birthright citizenship, and I can't imagine what the legal argument

1368
01:22:20,640 --> 01:22:25,120
Speaker 1: for that would be. It's like the debate over unlawful combatants.

1369
01:22:25,520 --> 01:22:30,599
Speaker 1: After nine to eleven, everyone agrees that birthright citizenship doesn't

1370
01:22:30,680 --> 01:22:35,000
Speaker 1: apply to the children of lawful combatants, and it's hard

1371
01:22:35,080 --> 01:22:39,880
Speaker 1: to see anyone arguing that unlawful combatants should be treated

1372
01:22:39,920 --> 01:22:42,800
Speaker 1: more favorably than lawful combatants.

1373
01:22:43,760 --> 01:22:46,280
Speaker 8: The question of birthright citizenship might now be out of

1374
01:22:46,320 --> 01:22:48,519
Speaker 8: the hands of Hoe and the rest of the Fifth Circuit.

1375
01:22:49,120 --> 01:22:51,640
Speaker 8: On December fifth, the Supreme Court agreed to hear a

1376
01:22:51,640 --> 01:22:54,840
Speaker 8: case on the constitutionality of Donald Trump's executive order that

1377
01:22:54,880 --> 01:22:57,280
Speaker 8: would deny citizenship to those born in the United States

1378
01:22:57,560 --> 01:23:00,320
Speaker 8: if their parents were in the country temporarily or lack

1379
01:23:00,439 --> 01:23:04,000
Speaker 8: legal status. Doctor you thinks that the Supreme Court is

1380
01:23:04,080 --> 01:23:07,240
Speaker 8: likely to accommodate those restrictions, even as they reject James

1381
01:23:07,320 --> 01:23:08,960
Speaker 8: Hoe's more extreme theories.

1382
01:23:09,600 --> 01:23:13,040
Speaker 13: I think that Supreme Court would roll back some portion

1383
01:23:13,200 --> 01:23:17,760
Speaker 13: of the Fourteenth Amendment protection over people who are born

1384
01:23:17,800 --> 01:23:18,599
Speaker 13: in this country.

1385
01:23:18,920 --> 01:23:20,280
Speaker 4: But I don't think they are.

1386
01:23:20,200 --> 01:23:23,720
Speaker 13: Going to what justice Hoe is going after, that is

1387
01:23:23,800 --> 01:23:25,000
Speaker 13: the invasion theory.

1388
01:23:25,680 --> 01:23:29,080
Speaker 7: That doesn't mean that James Hoe may not one day

1389
01:23:29,200 --> 01:23:33,360
Speaker 7: bring his extreme views on immigration to the nation's highest court.

1390
01:23:33,960 --> 01:23:36,160
Speaker 7: The two most far right judges on the United States

1391
01:23:36,200 --> 01:23:39,960
Speaker 7: Supreme Court are James Hoe's mentor, Clarence Thomas, who turns

1392
01:23:39,960 --> 01:23:43,680
Speaker 7: seventy eight on June twenty third, and Samuel Alito, who

1393
01:23:43,760 --> 01:23:48,560
Speaker 7: celebrates his seventy sixth birthday on April first. Court watchers

1394
01:23:49,080 --> 01:23:53,360
Speaker 7: are speculating that Alita might step down as early as October.

1395
01:23:54,160 --> 01:23:57,880
Speaker 7: His wife, Martha Anne, has expressed eager anticipation that the

1396
01:23:57,920 --> 01:24:00,400
Speaker 7: couple might soon be able to openly exp rest their

1397
01:24:00,400 --> 01:24:03,880
Speaker 7: political views. As though the Alito's opinions have ever been

1398
01:24:03,880 --> 01:24:07,639
Speaker 7: a mystery, It's still an uphill battle, but the odds

1399
01:24:07,640 --> 01:24:11,200
Speaker 7: of Democrats retaking the Senate after the off here elections

1400
01:24:11,720 --> 01:24:16,360
Speaker 7: have improved significantly in recent weeks. Alita may want to retire,

1401
01:24:16,520 --> 01:24:19,080
Speaker 7: while a Republican controlled Senate would still be able a

1402
01:24:19,160 --> 01:24:21,760
Speaker 7: rubber stamp Trump's choice for his successor.

1403
01:24:22,400 --> 01:24:25,439
Speaker 8: Alito also has a book coming out on October sixth,

1404
01:24:25,600 --> 01:24:27,960
Speaker 8: the day after the Supreme Court starts its fall term.

1405
01:24:28,640 --> 01:24:30,800
Speaker 8: Continuing to serve on the Court would interfere with any

1406
01:24:30,840 --> 01:24:34,360
Speaker 8: book promotion tour. Such an opening might lead to James

1407
01:24:34,360 --> 01:24:37,280
Speaker 8: Hoe getting a promotion, but Professor Hugh said that the

1408
01:24:37,280 --> 01:24:40,800
Speaker 8: Fifth Court judge shouldn't pack his bags just yet. Trump

1409
01:24:40,880 --> 01:24:43,320
Speaker 8: has largely outsourced the job of picking new federal judges

1410
01:24:43,400 --> 01:24:46,200
Speaker 8: or promoting them to the far right Federal Society, and

1411
01:24:46,320 --> 01:24:49,120
Speaker 8: you think that Home might lack the polish that a

1412
01:24:49,160 --> 01:24:50,960
Speaker 8: powerful lobbying group would see.

1413
01:24:51,320 --> 01:24:53,800
Speaker 13: I think, you know, it's not a secret that he's

1414
01:24:53,840 --> 01:24:56,120
Speaker 13: trying to get there, but I honestly think it's not

1415
01:24:56,200 --> 01:24:58,720
Speaker 13: going to be him. He does inter fit into the

1416
01:24:59,240 --> 01:25:02,720
Speaker 13: full file of a person who would get there. I

1417
01:25:02,760 --> 01:25:06,880
Speaker 13: think the Festoc, you know, the Federally Society is basically

1418
01:25:06,960 --> 01:25:08,480
Speaker 13: the handler of that situation.

1419
01:25:08,640 --> 01:25:09,680
Speaker 5: They would be able to.

1420
01:25:10,120 --> 01:25:12,960
Speaker 13: You know, screen in and you know, make short list

1421
01:25:13,680 --> 01:25:16,240
Speaker 13: to the White House. And so what kind of people

1422
01:25:16,240 --> 01:25:19,439
Speaker 13: they're looking for. I think that they're definitely looking for

1423
01:25:19,479 --> 01:25:22,679
Speaker 13: a conservative. If a little is going away right, Uh,

1424
01:25:22,800 --> 01:25:26,799
Speaker 13: They're looking for a conservative. But I don't think Justice

1425
01:25:26,840 --> 01:25:31,040
Speaker 13: Whole is in their favor because I think they are

1426
01:25:31,040 --> 01:25:35,680
Speaker 13: trying to find another person who is more sophisticated than

1427
01:25:35,920 --> 01:25:39,880
Speaker 13: Justice Whole, if I may say, may say that they

1428
01:25:39,920 --> 01:25:43,840
Speaker 13: wanted to find a person who is definitely a conservative

1429
01:25:44,200 --> 01:25:48,840
Speaker 13: but being able to rewrap the message with with academic

1430
01:25:49,000 --> 01:25:53,320
Speaker 13: legitimacy and to forge a need for majority at the

1431
01:25:53,400 --> 01:25:56,479
Speaker 13: Court to push through their agenda.

1432
01:25:56,600 --> 01:26:00,080
Speaker 7: Recently, Trump said he was considering Ted Cruz of Texas

1433
01:26:00,120 --> 01:26:03,080
Speaker 7: for the next Supreme Court vacancy. If so, James Hoe

1434
01:26:03,160 --> 01:26:05,759
Speaker 7: may be enjoying his lifetime post at the Fifth Circuit

1435
01:26:05,800 --> 01:26:10,839
Speaker 7: for the foreseeable future. Hoe celebrated his fifty third birthday

1436
01:26:10,880 --> 01:26:14,800
Speaker 7: on February twenty seventh. That means his legal philosophy will

1437
01:26:14,840 --> 01:26:18,040
Speaker 7: shape gay and trans writes the limits of free speech,

1438
01:26:18,320 --> 01:26:21,400
Speaker 7: who can buy firearms and where, and how how much

1439
01:26:21,439 --> 01:26:24,320
Speaker 7: autonomy women have over their bodies, and what access they

1440
01:26:24,320 --> 01:26:27,240
Speaker 7: will enjoy the healthcare and where the boundaries will be

1441
01:26:27,320 --> 01:26:31,679
Speaker 7: drawn between church and state for years to come. Hoe

1442
01:26:31,720 --> 01:26:33,880
Speaker 7: may not make it to the Supreme Court, but he

1443
01:26:33,880 --> 01:26:36,559
Speaker 7: could still be the loudest voice on the scariest court

1444
01:26:36,560 --> 01:26:39,920
Speaker 7: in America and shape the future of forty million Americans

1445
01:26:39,920 --> 01:26:43,719
Speaker 7: in Texas, Louisiana, and Mississippi for decades to come.

1446
01:26:44,920 --> 01:26:47,639
Speaker 8: We'd like to thank our friend Steve Mason for providing

1447
01:26:47,680 --> 01:26:50,439
Speaker 8: some of the voices today. This is Stephen Manchelly for

1448
01:26:50,479 --> 01:26:51,760
Speaker 8: it could happen here, and this.

1449
01:26:51,760 --> 01:26:54,360
Speaker 7: Is Michael Phillips. Until next time, Thanks for listening.

1450
01:27:10,439 --> 01:27:12,240
Speaker 4: Hello everyone, welcome to That could Happen Here.

1451
01:27:12,439 --> 01:27:13,479
Speaker 5: My name is Dana L.

1452
01:27:13,560 --> 01:27:16,599
Speaker 14: Kurd. I'm a researcher of Arab and Palestinian politics, and

1453
01:27:16,640 --> 01:27:19,280
Speaker 14: today I'm joined by Ilia Ayub.

1454
01:27:19,920 --> 01:27:21,200
Speaker 4: Would like to introduce yourself.

1455
01:27:21,520 --> 01:27:24,200
Speaker 15: Yeah, yeah, hi Danna, thank you for having me. My

1456
01:27:24,280 --> 01:27:27,600
Speaker 15: name is Idiah. I'm emotioning it from Lebanon. My background

1457
01:27:27,640 --> 01:27:31,920
Speaker 15: is in both history and journalism, and I often write

1458
01:27:31,960 --> 01:27:34,719
Speaker 15: about the region and more support Palestinian and I also

1459
01:27:34,760 --> 01:27:37,759
Speaker 15: write a lot about this aid in Palestine, and obviously

1460
01:27:37,800 --> 01:27:41,160
Speaker 15: in the past few years I've been covering and also

1461
01:27:41,240 --> 01:27:42,920
Speaker 15: worrying a lot about what's been happening.

1462
01:27:43,360 --> 01:27:45,880
Speaker 14: Yeah, thank you so much for joining us, especially at

1463
01:27:45,880 --> 01:27:48,839
Speaker 14: such a difficult time for the listeners. We are recording

1464
01:27:48,960 --> 01:27:53,160
Speaker 14: March twenty second, twenty twenty six, and is Uel's attack

1465
01:27:53,200 --> 01:27:56,759
Speaker 14: on Lebanon is ongoing. So we're really grateful to Elia

1466
01:27:56,920 --> 01:28:00,040
Speaker 14: for joining us and talking to us about what this

1467
01:28:00,160 --> 01:28:02,280
Speaker 14: means and what we're seeing on the ground. Yeah, So

1468
01:28:02,320 --> 01:28:04,360
Speaker 14: maybe I'll start there. Can you lay out for the

1469
01:28:04,400 --> 01:28:07,840
Speaker 14: listener what is happening in Lebanon right now?

1470
01:28:08,880 --> 01:28:10,200
Speaker 5: So what's been happening in Lebanon?

1471
01:28:10,280 --> 01:28:13,320
Speaker 15: Is that really connected to the US Israeli war on

1472
01:28:13,400 --> 01:28:16,720
Speaker 15: Iran which started what about twenty two twenty three days

1473
01:28:16,760 --> 01:28:19,960
Speaker 15: ago something like that, That was in itself in the

1474
01:28:20,000 --> 01:28:23,280
Speaker 15: context of negotiations between Americans and the Ionians in Switzerland

1475
01:28:23,320 --> 01:28:27,320
Speaker 15: mediated by Arman, and just moments later, really that same night,

1476
01:28:27,760 --> 01:28:29,800
Speaker 15: the bombing of Iran started.

1477
01:28:30,200 --> 01:28:33,360
Speaker 5: In Lebanon, or rather the way Lebanon enters.

1478
01:28:33,120 --> 01:28:36,720
Speaker 15: This story is a couple of days after the assassination

1479
01:28:36,760 --> 01:28:39,840
Speaker 15: of Chraminid atl of Ion has Boler launched the cockets

1480
01:28:39,880 --> 01:28:43,599
Speaker 15: towards Israel. And this was used by the Israelis as

1481
01:28:43,720 --> 01:28:46,639
Speaker 15: effectively them saying that we will only head on Lebanon.

1482
01:28:47,200 --> 01:28:50,679
Speaker 15: And that's often how it's been reported. What is often

1483
01:28:50,720 --> 01:28:53,599
Speaker 15: missed even in that context I mean, is that there

1484
01:28:53,720 --> 01:28:56,920
Speaker 15: was a so called ceasefire between Israel and Lebanon, and

1485
01:28:57,120 --> 01:29:01,600
Speaker 15: Hasball obviously for thirteen months before that, but that so

1486
01:29:01,680 --> 01:29:03,839
Speaker 15: called seasfire, the reason what I'm saying, so called seasfire

1487
01:29:04,280 --> 01:29:06,479
Speaker 15: had already been violated by the Israelis. And this is

1488
01:29:06,479 --> 01:29:09,040
Speaker 15: the figures that come from the uniform the unp Is

1489
01:29:09,080 --> 01:29:13,719
Speaker 15: keeping forces in Lebanon over fifteen thousand times, whereas they themselves.

1490
01:29:13,760 --> 01:29:15,559
Speaker 15: In fact, even the BBC today I saw an article

1491
01:29:15,560 --> 01:29:19,200
Speaker 15: today I acknowledged that has Bulah had not violated the ceasefire,

1492
01:29:19,760 --> 01:29:21,920
Speaker 15: which you know is just I guess still is. You're

1493
01:29:21,880 --> 01:29:23,519
Speaker 15: also where the where the mood is add inters of

1494
01:29:23,880 --> 01:29:27,040
Speaker 15: the coverage since then, like in the past three weeks,

1495
01:29:27,560 --> 01:29:31,000
Speaker 15: the hell and this term was used by israel officials

1496
01:29:31,040 --> 01:29:34,880
Speaker 15: themselves that has been unleashed on Lebanon has been unprecedented,

1497
01:29:34,960 --> 01:29:39,120
Speaker 15: and even even by Israeli wars on Lebanon standards, which

1498
01:29:39,160 --> 01:29:42,160
Speaker 15: is saying a lot. As of time of recording, at

1499
01:29:42,240 --> 01:29:45,479
Speaker 15: least twenty percent of the entirety of Lebanon has already

1500
01:29:45,520 --> 01:29:48,519
Speaker 15: been displaced, and for the most part, these are people

1501
01:29:48,520 --> 01:29:51,920
Speaker 15: that had already experienced this placement at least once in

1502
01:29:51,920 --> 01:29:56,040
Speaker 15: twenty twenty four when this war started, if not older

1503
01:29:56,120 --> 01:29:58,720
Speaker 15: patterns of displacements going back to the Civil War and

1504
01:29:58,800 --> 01:30:01,400
Speaker 15: the Israeli occupy of South Lebanon in the eighties and

1505
01:30:01,439 --> 01:30:05,720
Speaker 15: nineties and so on. And pretty unclear where this is

1506
01:30:05,760 --> 01:30:10,639
Speaker 15: headed because just hours before we even started recording, they

1507
01:30:11,000 --> 01:30:14,560
Speaker 15: escalated their bombings of bridges connecting South Lebanon to the

1508
01:30:14,600 --> 01:30:16,720
Speaker 15: Gust of Lebanon, which is over the Littonia River, which

1509
01:30:16,760 --> 01:30:18,720
Speaker 15: is one of the rivers in the south, as part

1510
01:30:18,720 --> 01:30:21,559
Speaker 15: of the attempt to cut off the entire region of Lebanon,

1511
01:30:21,720 --> 01:30:24,320
Speaker 15: of South Lebanon from the rest of the country. And yeah,

1512
01:30:24,360 --> 01:30:26,120
Speaker 15: we can get into oftenly more of the details and

1513
01:30:26,160 --> 01:30:28,400
Speaker 15: the impact that this is having on Lebanon itself, of course,

1514
01:30:28,400 --> 01:30:32,080
Speaker 15: because this tends to be unfortunately like not covered.

1515
01:30:31,760 --> 01:30:36,240
Speaker 14: A much, Yeah, thank you, So to kind of summarize,

1516
01:30:36,720 --> 01:30:40,080
Speaker 14: because they decided to launch a war against Iran, and

1517
01:30:40,240 --> 01:30:43,080
Speaker 14: obviously there's so much to say about that, we're not

1518
01:30:43,120 --> 01:30:45,839
Speaker 14: going to be able to address every aspect of this conflict.

1519
01:30:45,880 --> 01:30:49,640
Speaker 14: But because of that, and after particularly the assassination of

1520
01:30:50,080 --> 01:30:54,240
Speaker 14: the Ayatola Hasbolo launch rockets, and then the Israelis, who

1521
01:30:54,240 --> 01:30:57,919
Speaker 14: had already been breaking the seasefire between them and Hesbola

1522
01:30:58,040 --> 01:31:00,960
Speaker 14: that had emerged over the past year, decided to kind

1523
01:31:00,960 --> 01:31:03,320
Speaker 14: of ramp up their attacks. And when we say ramp

1524
01:31:03,400 --> 01:31:05,599
Speaker 14: up their attacks, you know, you've mentioned like the destruction

1525
01:31:05,640 --> 01:31:09,519
Speaker 14: of infrastructure, cutting off the south, basically clearing villages, et cetera.

1526
01:31:09,920 --> 01:31:13,200
Speaker 14: The Israeli officials, including Natanya, who have said they want

1527
01:31:13,240 --> 01:31:16,280
Speaker 14: to impose what they called the Gaza.

1528
01:31:15,920 --> 01:31:17,040
Speaker 2: Model on Lebanon.

1529
01:31:17,320 --> 01:31:22,799
Speaker 14: So what can we understand from from this kind of comment?

1530
01:31:23,479 --> 01:31:24,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, thank you.

1531
01:31:24,479 --> 01:31:28,559
Speaker 15: It's important to note that such comments are not new

1532
01:31:28,600 --> 01:31:31,880
Speaker 15: at all, and they have also been uttered in times

1533
01:31:31,880 --> 01:31:34,120
Speaker 15: of quote unquote peace. So when there isn't any kind

1534
01:31:34,120 --> 01:31:37,240
Speaker 15: of active conflict in my own article for nine seven two,

1535
01:31:37,240 --> 01:31:38,760
Speaker 15: which I wrote about it, don't know two weeks ago.

1536
01:31:38,880 --> 01:31:41,400
Speaker 15: So I quote in a number of those politicians, and

1537
01:31:41,439 --> 01:31:44,160
Speaker 15: I'll just mention a few of them. Here you have Galant,

1538
01:31:44,160 --> 01:31:46,920
Speaker 15: who has of course since been and still has in

1539
01:31:47,040 --> 01:31:51,040
Speaker 15: against warrant by the International Comment Court. He's hadned to

1540
01:31:51,080 --> 01:31:52,680
Speaker 15: send up on back to the Stone Agent. This was

1541
01:31:52,680 --> 01:31:56,600
Speaker 15: in November twenty twenty four. The Diaspora Affairs Minister Amishai

1542
01:31:57,080 --> 01:32:00,559
Speaker 15: quickly declared in September twenty twenty four that n quote

1543
01:32:00,600 --> 01:32:03,040
Speaker 15: does not mean the definition of a state, and he

1544
01:32:03,160 --> 01:32:06,120
Speaker 15: described all of the Shia population of Lebanon as quote

1545
01:32:06,160 --> 01:32:10,880
Speaker 15: unquote hostile, which is genocide the language by definition. And

1546
01:32:11,400 --> 01:32:14,559
Speaker 15: even about what two or three weeks ago, so smart

1547
01:32:14,640 --> 01:32:16,240
Speaker 15: Hitch who was one of kind of the main for

1548
01:32:16,400 --> 01:32:20,040
Speaker 15: great politicians in Israel today said that very soonly some

1549
01:32:20,080 --> 01:32:23,400
Speaker 15: un quoting, very soon Dahi will resemble Harne Newness. Dahi

1550
01:32:23,439 --> 01:32:27,080
Speaker 15: being the southern suburb of Bayhood where a lot there's

1551
01:32:27,080 --> 01:32:28,559
Speaker 15: a lot of support for has Bola and has always

1552
01:32:28,600 --> 01:32:31,080
Speaker 15: been talked about by the Israelis as like one of

1553
01:32:31,120 --> 01:32:35,439
Speaker 15: the quote blas songholds. In fact, they pioneered you might

1554
01:32:35,479 --> 01:32:37,960
Speaker 15: say that Dahi doctrine in two thousand and six, so

1555
01:32:38,080 --> 01:32:39,720
Speaker 15: named after Dahi, and there was a war in two

1556
01:32:39,720 --> 01:32:43,120
Speaker 15: thousand and six as well, Pteninsula has Butla, which is

1557
01:32:43,600 --> 01:32:48,760
Speaker 15: quite explicitly a policy of bombing civilian infrastructure in order

1558
01:32:48,800 --> 01:32:50,240
Speaker 15: to put pressure on the enemy.

1559
01:32:50,240 --> 01:32:52,559
Speaker 5: In this crist As Butler, which is basically in.

1560
01:32:52,640 --> 01:32:56,200
Speaker 15: Acknowledgment that they viorate international law as state policy. And

1561
01:32:56,360 --> 01:33:00,280
Speaker 15: on March eleven, a member of the Pignesset for the

1562
01:33:00,280 --> 01:33:03,439
Speaker 15: same party of smot Riach said, and I'm quoting, we

1563
01:33:03,560 --> 01:33:06,880
Speaker 15: must conquer territory in southern Lebanon, destroy villages there and

1564
01:33:06,960 --> 01:33:08,759
Speaker 15: annex the territory to the state of Israel.

1565
01:33:08,880 --> 01:33:10,479
Speaker 5: End quote. There's another one.

1566
01:33:10,520 --> 01:33:12,880
Speaker 15: Gadi Eisencote, who was the former chief of staff of

1567
01:33:12,920 --> 01:33:16,559
Speaker 15: the Israelia Media Idea, said around the same time, I

1568
01:33:16,560 --> 01:33:17,760
Speaker 15: think it was a couple of weeks ago.

1569
01:33:18,040 --> 01:33:19,080
Speaker 5: Quote the dog Hit.

1570
01:33:18,960 --> 01:33:21,400
Speaker 15: Doctine has never been more relevant than right now, and

1571
01:33:21,439 --> 01:33:23,160
Speaker 15: it must be implemented end quote.

1572
01:33:23,479 --> 01:33:25,280
Speaker 5: Die here doctrine being the one that I just mentioned.

1573
01:33:25,920 --> 01:33:28,360
Speaker 15: And this is I said, not new, whether in the

1574
01:33:28,360 --> 01:33:31,960
Speaker 15: context of talking about Palestinians in the res a long

1575
01:33:32,000 --> 01:33:35,280
Speaker 15: before the ongoing genocide, whether in the context of talking

1576
01:33:35,320 --> 01:33:38,240
Speaker 15: about the Lebanese and so on, there has been this

1577
01:33:38,439 --> 01:33:42,680
Speaker 15: stain of open utterances of genocidal framing on behalf of

1578
01:33:42,680 --> 01:33:46,160
Speaker 15: like Israeli politicians and military leaders. One needs to notice

1579
01:33:46,240 --> 01:33:49,000
Speaker 15: to understand why they act in certain ways in Lebanon.

1580
01:33:49,360 --> 01:33:51,439
Speaker 15: If it was just about like you know, targeting their

1581
01:33:51,560 --> 01:33:53,800
Speaker 15: enemies or whatever, that would be like one one way

1582
01:33:53,800 --> 01:33:57,000
Speaker 15: of doing warfare. But it will then explain like detonating

1583
01:33:57,160 --> 01:34:00,720
Speaker 15: entire villages as they've been doing during the so ceasefire.

1584
01:34:01,400 --> 01:34:05,000
Speaker 15: It wouldn't explainplaining herbicide, which they did about a month

1585
01:34:05,000 --> 01:34:07,800
Speaker 15: ago over like large parts of Stuft Lebanon, including parts

1586
01:34:07,800 --> 01:34:10,320
Speaker 15: of Celia for that matter, which killed cops and so on.

1587
01:34:10,360 --> 01:34:13,760
Speaker 15: It would explain them not allowing farmers to harvest their cops. Know,

1588
01:34:13,760 --> 01:34:16,240
Speaker 15: it would explain all of these things. What would explain

1589
01:34:16,280 --> 01:34:18,559
Speaker 15: all of these things is if you take into account

1590
01:34:18,920 --> 01:34:21,160
Speaker 15: what they say the intentions are in Lebanon or the

1591
01:34:21,200 --> 01:34:23,920
Speaker 15: valley is what they want it to happen in Lebanon.

1592
01:34:23,920 --> 01:34:24,559
Speaker 5: If that makes sense.

1593
01:34:25,080 --> 01:34:30,120
Speaker 14: Yeah, it really seems like the Israeli policy, especially now

1594
01:34:30,120 --> 01:34:33,120
Speaker 14: that there's been really no accountability for what happened in Gaza.

1595
01:34:33,760 --> 01:34:38,600
Speaker 14: It's like basically to pursue maximum violence, including against civilians,

1596
01:34:39,120 --> 01:34:41,240
Speaker 14: and create I think kind of like a no man's

1597
01:34:41,320 --> 01:34:45,479
Speaker 14: land buffer zone around Israel. Now, there are some elements

1598
01:34:45,520 --> 01:34:50,000
Speaker 14: of Israeli society that are like religious scientists, like messianic

1599
01:34:50,240 --> 01:34:54,479
Speaker 14: types who want to like settle and like expand. But

1600
01:34:54,520 --> 01:34:58,320
Speaker 14: aside from those those people, like I think even we

1601
01:34:58,360 --> 01:35:01,519
Speaker 14: would call like centrists in or like the liberals in

1602
01:35:01,640 --> 01:35:04,040
Speaker 14: Israel are like, okay, well, yeah, we do need we

1603
01:35:04,080 --> 01:35:06,040
Speaker 14: do need a buffers, so we need a flatten gaza.

1604
01:35:06,160 --> 01:35:08,200
Speaker 4: We need to flatten Southern Lebanon.

1605
01:35:08,840 --> 01:35:11,560
Speaker 14: And what this translates to, I mean in Lebanon in

1606
01:35:11,640 --> 01:35:15,320
Speaker 14: particular is I think you know, some estimates say over

1607
01:35:15,320 --> 01:35:17,599
Speaker 14: a thousand have been killed in just the past like

1608
01:35:17,640 --> 01:35:21,400
Speaker 14: two and a half weeks. Yeah, and then millions displaced.

1609
01:35:20,960 --> 01:35:22,960
Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, twenty percent of the country.

1610
01:35:23,040 --> 01:35:25,599
Speaker 15: Lebanon is one of the smallest countries in the world,

1611
01:35:26,160 --> 01:35:29,360
Speaker 15: and South Lebanon is one of the only regions in

1612
01:35:29,360 --> 01:35:31,200
Speaker 15: the country that you might call like a bread basket

1613
01:35:31,200 --> 01:35:33,840
Speaker 15: in terms of agriculture. So yeah, twenty percent of the

1614
01:35:33,840 --> 01:35:35,720
Speaker 15: population has already been in this place, and those are

1615
01:35:35,720 --> 01:35:37,040
Speaker 15: those that could be registered.

1616
01:35:37,160 --> 01:35:38,800
Speaker 5: You can imagine number as being higher than that.

1617
01:35:39,439 --> 01:35:41,400
Speaker 15: And as I said, like a lot of those people

1618
01:35:41,439 --> 01:35:44,679
Speaker 15: have already been displaced a number of times before, even

1619
01:35:44,680 --> 01:35:46,160
Speaker 15: in twenty twenty four when there was the kind of

1620
01:35:46,160 --> 01:35:49,240
Speaker 15: the initial escalation, but many of them even going back

1621
01:35:49,240 --> 01:35:50,720
Speaker 15: to two thousand and six when there was the war,

1622
01:35:50,800 --> 01:35:53,000
Speaker 15: and in some cases even further back in the eighties

1623
01:35:53,000 --> 01:35:55,720
Speaker 15: and nineties when day is Lightlies occupied southern Lebanon. And

1624
01:35:55,760 --> 01:35:58,360
Speaker 15: I guess this is really important to note because obviously

1625
01:35:58,400 --> 01:36:01,960
Speaker 15: what's happening today is connected to the war on Iran.

1626
01:36:02,040 --> 01:36:03,439
Speaker 5: Of course it's directly connected.

1627
01:36:04,160 --> 01:36:06,519
Speaker 15: But if one only knows this, I think we missed

1628
01:36:06,880 --> 01:36:08,439
Speaker 15: what I would describe as a bit of an israel

1629
01:36:08,479 --> 01:36:11,439
Speaker 15: obsession with Lebanon specifically for a long time.

1630
01:36:12,080 --> 01:36:14,000
Speaker 5: There's like historical roots to all of this.

1631
01:36:14,400 --> 01:36:17,320
Speaker 15: It even goes back to the Israelis like having ties

1632
01:36:17,360 --> 01:36:20,679
Speaker 15: with like the local Christian far right in the sixties,

1633
01:36:20,840 --> 01:36:22,040
Speaker 15: especially as the seventies and.

1634
01:36:22,000 --> 01:36:24,400
Speaker 4: Eighties, like during the civil war, during the Civil.

1635
01:36:24,200 --> 01:36:27,000
Speaker 15: War in Lebanon, and a bit of this almost I

1636
01:36:27,000 --> 01:36:30,080
Speaker 15: mean ideological thing of like we will focus on the

1637
01:36:30,120 --> 01:36:32,200
Speaker 15: non Muslims and hope that they're on our side, that

1638
01:36:32,600 --> 01:36:34,759
Speaker 15: sort of thing, which is a policy that these Raelies

1639
01:36:34,800 --> 01:36:38,479
Speaker 15: have done within is A Palestine and in Syria. You know,

1640
01:36:38,800 --> 01:36:40,600
Speaker 15: this is an ongoing thing as well, and so on

1641
01:36:40,680 --> 01:36:43,320
Speaker 15: and so forth. I really want to emphasize this because

1642
01:36:43,360 --> 01:36:45,000
Speaker 15: I have had the experience when I hit a lot

1643
01:36:45,000 --> 01:36:46,760
Speaker 15: of the coverage and you know, listen to podcasts what

1644
01:36:46,800 --> 01:36:50,720
Speaker 15: have you that even among people who don't support the

1645
01:36:50,760 --> 01:36:52,479
Speaker 15: state of is read who are very critical of it,

1646
01:36:53,000 --> 01:36:56,320
Speaker 15: there tends to be understandably because Lebanon is less powerful

1647
01:36:56,360 --> 01:36:58,640
Speaker 15: than Iran, as you know, not as influential on a

1648
01:36:58,680 --> 01:37:02,080
Speaker 15: global scene or whatnot. But there's usually a tendency to

1649
01:37:02,320 --> 01:37:05,200
Speaker 15: link what happens in Lebanon directly to what's happening in Yon.

1650
01:37:05,280 --> 01:37:07,040
Speaker 15: And this has been two in the past few weeks.

1651
01:37:07,200 --> 01:37:09,479
Speaker 15: And as I said, says, of course partly the cases,

1652
01:37:09,479 --> 01:37:12,519
Speaker 15: it's not like completely un irrelevant. Has Bala did even

1653
01:37:12,520 --> 01:37:14,680
Speaker 15: stated that the reason why they launched those cockets was

1654
01:37:14,760 --> 01:37:17,839
Speaker 15: to avenge the assassination of Dietolus, of course is directly created.

1655
01:37:18,360 --> 01:37:20,519
Speaker 15: But there's all of this, like why they're in all

1656
01:37:20,640 --> 01:37:24,360
Speaker 15: the context that can help at the very least explain

1657
01:37:24,439 --> 01:37:26,679
Speaker 15: why the Asaetias are doing that in Lebanon and also

1658
01:37:26,720 --> 01:37:29,040
Speaker 15: help extain what's happening to Lebanon itself, which tends to

1659
01:37:29,080 --> 01:37:30,200
Speaker 15: be not as focused on.

1660
01:37:30,840 --> 01:37:33,599
Speaker 14: I mean, yeah, let's discuss for a moment where Lebanon

1661
01:37:33,840 --> 01:37:39,200
Speaker 14: was before these latest attacks, before the ceasefire, before October seventh.

1662
01:37:39,640 --> 01:37:43,800
Speaker 14: For the Lebanese people, it has been increasingly unlivable. There's

1663
01:37:43,840 --> 01:37:48,160
Speaker 14: been a financial crisis and economic crisis. Lebanon has hosted

1664
01:37:48,680 --> 01:37:52,160
Speaker 14: huge amounts of refugees from Syria from Palestine. Continues to

1665
01:37:52,920 --> 01:37:57,479
Speaker 14: these conditions now where effectively like what like half of

1666
01:37:57,520 --> 01:38:01,160
Speaker 14: the country is like inaccessible or some large portion of

1667
01:38:01,160 --> 01:38:05,040
Speaker 14: the country is inaccessible, The capital city is being bombed,

1668
01:38:05,360 --> 01:38:09,080
Speaker 14: residential buildings, like there's nothing kind of off limits. What

1669
01:38:09,200 --> 01:38:12,599
Speaker 14: is the situation now for for regular people who first

1670
01:38:12,640 --> 01:38:16,200
Speaker 14: and foremost have not had any kind of like sense

1671
01:38:16,200 --> 01:38:19,599
Speaker 14: of accountability from their own government and have had also

1672
01:38:19,680 --> 01:38:23,879
Speaker 14: his Babla sort of you know, acting unilaterally in some ways.

1673
01:38:24,439 --> 01:38:27,760
Speaker 14: Obviously this does not excuse it's really actions in any way.

1674
01:38:27,920 --> 01:38:30,680
Speaker 14: But what's the kind of like sense of emotion right

1675
01:38:30,720 --> 01:38:31,960
Speaker 14: now among Lebanese people?

1676
01:38:32,600 --> 01:38:36,599
Speaker 15: I mean, despair is I guess one word to describe it.

1677
01:38:36,640 --> 01:38:39,560
Speaker 15: There's there's definitely a sense of helplessness. His bubble is

1678
01:38:39,600 --> 01:38:41,680
Speaker 15: not a popular party in the country in terms of

1679
01:38:41,720 --> 01:38:45,040
Speaker 15: like the percentage of the population there is in actions,

1680
01:38:45,320 --> 01:38:49,040
Speaker 15: whether this one or like after October seventh, the decision

1681
01:38:49,080 --> 01:38:51,160
Speaker 15: to join the war was unpopular.

1682
01:38:51,240 --> 01:38:52,240
Speaker 5: Instead it is unpopular.

1683
01:38:52,920 --> 01:38:55,479
Speaker 15: There's something that the Israelis are trying to capitalize on, obviously,

1684
01:38:56,240 --> 01:38:58,360
Speaker 15: either because they want to just descoy the party, you

1685
01:38:58,479 --> 01:39:00,519
Speaker 15: because as part of doing that they also want to

1686
01:39:00,520 --> 01:39:03,000
Speaker 15: destabilize all of Lebanon sort of that both of those

1687
01:39:03,040 --> 01:39:05,439
Speaker 15: things are happening at the same time. The current government

1688
01:39:05,439 --> 01:39:07,120
Speaker 15: in Leblon is led by the guy who was the

1689
01:39:07,160 --> 01:39:09,120
Speaker 15: head of the ICJ when South Africa had started this

1690
01:39:09,240 --> 01:39:11,479
Speaker 15: case of accusing is that of genocide like a year

1691
01:39:11,600 --> 01:39:13,840
Speaker 15: or so ago. So he's by no means a naive

1692
01:39:14,400 --> 01:39:17,200
Speaker 15: of what Israeli intentions are. But I think what's really

1693
01:39:17,200 --> 01:39:19,760
Speaker 15: important to understand of what's kind of the mood of

1694
01:39:19,800 --> 01:39:23,599
Speaker 15: the country is the sense that no matter what we

1695
01:39:23,720 --> 01:39:27,599
Speaker 15: decide as a nation, it's completely out of our hands.

1696
01:39:27,800 --> 01:39:30,880
Speaker 15: And this goes beyond even questions related to has Buddler

1697
01:39:30,920 --> 01:39:33,479
Speaker 15: and has Bula's actions, because, as I said, even when

1698
01:39:33,479 --> 01:39:36,880
Speaker 15: Hesbula does not launch cockets or whatnot, the Israeli Is

1699
01:39:36,920 --> 01:39:39,760
Speaker 15: continue to violence as far as anyway, they in coach

1700
01:39:39,840 --> 01:39:44,240
Speaker 15: Land anyway, they dynamite entire villages anyway, they sprayed those

1701
01:39:44,280 --> 01:39:47,240
Speaker 15: herbicides and so on and so on anyway, And it's

1702
01:39:47,240 --> 01:39:49,120
Speaker 15: one of those things that it's also important to know

1703
01:39:49,240 --> 01:39:51,160
Speaker 15: this to understand why there are people, for example, in

1704
01:39:51,200 --> 01:39:54,920
Speaker 15: South Lebanon that, regardless of their personal feelings towards his

1705
01:39:55,040 --> 01:39:58,360
Speaker 15: bud Law, don't see any alternatives because in fact there

1706
01:39:58,360 --> 01:40:01,040
Speaker 15: are none. Something that I know isn't talked about as

1707
01:40:01,120 --> 01:40:03,840
Speaker 15: much and certainly not covered as much, is the fact

1708
01:40:03,840 --> 01:40:05,800
Speaker 15: that the armed force that is supposed to be the

1709
01:40:05,840 --> 01:40:08,760
Speaker 15: alternative to Hasbola. The thing that we hear about all

1710
01:40:08,760 --> 01:40:11,240
Speaker 15: the time that the Americans what they want is for

1711
01:40:11,240 --> 01:40:13,960
Speaker 15: Hasbola to be disarmed and for the Lebanese army to

1712
01:40:14,000 --> 01:40:15,880
Speaker 15: take over, and so on and so forth. And this

1713
01:40:15,960 --> 01:40:18,640
Speaker 15: is basically the stated goal of the entire world in

1714
01:40:18,640 --> 01:40:20,720
Speaker 15: a sense, but is a good chunk of it, and

1715
01:40:20,720 --> 01:40:23,280
Speaker 15: in fact it's officially the stated policy of the Liberines

1716
01:40:23,360 --> 01:40:25,600
Speaker 15: state itself. That is their intention as far as like

1717
01:40:25,600 --> 01:40:28,040
Speaker 15: their public declarations and so on, and they have made

1718
01:40:28,040 --> 01:40:31,080
Speaker 15: certain moves to that end as well. But the Libanese

1719
01:40:31,160 --> 01:40:33,240
Speaker 15: army is the army of a very poor country that

1720
01:40:33,320 --> 01:40:35,960
Speaker 15: has been in economic crisis for a long time. When

1721
01:40:36,000 --> 01:40:39,280
Speaker 15: we had wildfires in twenty nineteen, there wasn't even enough

1722
01:40:39,360 --> 01:40:42,559
Speaker 15: like equipment to tackle them, and like foreign government had

1723
01:40:42,600 --> 01:40:45,960
Speaker 15: to donate helicopters and stuff like that. And that Libanese

1724
01:40:46,000 --> 01:40:48,559
Speaker 15: army is also heavily subsidized, if you want to say,

1725
01:40:48,680 --> 01:40:51,799
Speaker 15: like funded in any case by the United States itself,

1726
01:40:52,320 --> 01:40:55,200
Speaker 15: the same United States that obviously heavily funds and arms

1727
01:40:55,160 --> 01:40:58,439
Speaker 15: the Israelis. Of course, the weapons that the Lebanese get

1728
01:40:58,640 --> 01:41:00,840
Speaker 15: is nothing compared to the weapons that the Israelis get.

1729
01:41:00,920 --> 01:41:03,120
Speaker 15: There's no such thing as an iron dome in Lebanon.

1730
01:41:03,600 --> 01:41:06,680
Speaker 15: None of these things are available to the Lebanese. And

1731
01:41:06,720 --> 01:41:10,120
Speaker 15: so effectively, what is being asked off Lebanon itself, and

1732
01:41:10,200 --> 01:41:12,719
Speaker 15: especially of South Lebanon, of the Ahia and East Lebanon,

1733
01:41:13,000 --> 01:41:17,000
Speaker 15: ultimately of all of Lebanon, is that just accept your fate.

1734
01:41:17,760 --> 01:41:19,840
Speaker 15: Just accept that there's nothing you can do about the

1735
01:41:19,880 --> 01:41:22,280
Speaker 15: Israel least, there's nothing you can do about their actions

1736
01:41:22,320 --> 01:41:25,400
Speaker 15: in Lebanon proper. I'm not even talking about any actions

1737
01:41:25,439 --> 01:41:27,599
Speaker 15: like rockets towards this, and I'm talking to their actions

1738
01:41:27,640 --> 01:41:31,879
Speaker 15: in Lebanon itself and they're also asking has wella for example,

1739
01:41:31,920 --> 01:41:34,880
Speaker 15: to this arm which in itself I am not opposed to,

1740
01:41:35,479 --> 01:41:37,640
Speaker 15: but in the context of what has been happening, in

1741
01:41:37,680 --> 01:41:40,600
Speaker 15: the context of what's happening now, I think it's ludicrous

1742
01:41:40,640 --> 01:41:43,200
Speaker 15: to imagine that people in any context, like in South Lebanon,

1743
01:41:43,520 --> 01:41:48,200
Speaker 15: who have decades now long experience of seeing Israeli occupation,

1744
01:41:48,280 --> 01:41:51,640
Speaker 15: of seeing Israeli troops on their lands, no matter like

1745
01:41:51,880 --> 01:41:54,880
Speaker 15: multiple different you know, different prime ministers in Israel taking

1746
01:41:54,920 --> 01:41:57,080
Speaker 15: the charge and whatnot, but that continuing to be this

1747
01:41:57,200 --> 01:41:59,639
Speaker 15: kind of almost eternal fact. In a sense at least,

1748
01:41:59,640 --> 01:42:02,560
Speaker 15: that's how that's how it feels they're being asked to

1749
01:42:02,760 --> 01:42:06,120
Speaker 15: just disarm and hope for the best. That's really like

1750
01:42:06,160 --> 01:42:09,400
Speaker 15: effectively the policy towards Lebanon at the moment. Like I

1751
01:42:09,439 --> 01:42:11,200
Speaker 15: saw an interview with one of the French ministers a

1752
01:42:11,240 --> 01:42:14,519
Speaker 15: few few days ago, and she was asked like, why

1753
01:42:14,520 --> 01:42:17,280
Speaker 15: aren't we doing more to help Lebanon by someone in

1754
01:42:17,320 --> 01:42:19,120
Speaker 15: the audience or whatever, and she said that, like, we're

1755
01:42:19,160 --> 01:42:23,160
Speaker 15: sending humanitarian aid, and we have UNIFIL forces in southern

1756
01:42:23,240 --> 01:42:26,880
Speaker 15: Lebanon and so on, UNIFUIL forces those and peace keeping forces.

1757
01:42:26,880 --> 01:42:28,920
Speaker 15: As I said, don't have a legal right to even

1758
01:42:28,960 --> 01:42:32,880
Speaker 15: retaliate against the Israels, including when Israel bombs them, which

1759
01:42:32,920 --> 01:42:35,000
Speaker 15: it has done at least twice in the past few weeks.

1760
01:42:35,479 --> 01:42:38,240
Speaker 15: The Lebanese army really engages with Israelis, they don't even

1761
01:42:38,320 --> 01:42:41,080
Speaker 15: have the means in the first place, And so what

1762
01:42:41,280 --> 01:42:43,600
Speaker 15: do people expected to do? And this is sort of

1763
01:42:43,640 --> 01:42:46,479
Speaker 15: the context in which everything else almost doesn't matter, Like

1764
01:42:46,520 --> 01:42:49,519
Speaker 15: in terms of whether you personally like the Hasiboddla, I

1765
01:42:49,600 --> 01:42:53,559
Speaker 15: certainly don't, and whatever, like ones personal feelings or even

1766
01:42:53,600 --> 01:42:57,320
Speaker 15: politics is towards a political party because they're also members

1767
01:42:57,320 --> 01:43:00,519
Speaker 15: of the Lebanese Parliament, towards the state itself. It is

1768
01:43:00,960 --> 01:43:04,120
Speaker 15: that it really feels it ultimately, it's like out of

1769
01:43:04,160 --> 01:43:07,120
Speaker 15: our hands. And this is like a component of this

1770
01:43:07,360 --> 01:43:10,200
Speaker 15: entire thing that I really see, to be honest discussed

1771
01:43:10,240 --> 01:43:12,719
Speaker 15: as though like there are like two sides to the story,

1772
01:43:12,840 --> 01:43:14,720
Speaker 15: or like two equal armed actors for that even none

1773
01:43:14,720 --> 01:43:17,080
Speaker 15: on like equal states for that matter, and it's just

1774
01:43:17,120 --> 01:43:17,639
Speaker 15: not the case.

1775
01:43:17,960 --> 01:43:20,040
Speaker 14: Yeah, thank you so much for laying that out like that.

1776
01:43:20,200 --> 01:43:22,880
Speaker 14: I think that you're right that it's not well acknowledged

1777
01:43:23,120 --> 01:43:27,799
Speaker 14: how disempowered the international community basically expects people in the region,

1778
01:43:27,800 --> 01:43:30,559
Speaker 14: including the Lebanese, to behave and like accept the fact

1779
01:43:30,560 --> 01:43:34,040
Speaker 14: that they are collateral damage in Israel's you know, perpetual

1780
01:43:34,960 --> 01:43:49,879
Speaker 14: desire for domination. American political scientist Nathan Brown just published

1781
01:43:49,920 --> 01:43:52,960
Speaker 14: this article called Israel's Forever Wars for the Carnegie Domat.

1782
01:43:53,439 --> 01:43:56,360
Speaker 14: His argument is that there's been a shift in the

1783
01:43:56,520 --> 01:43:59,760
Speaker 14: Israeli policy where he says it used to be the

1784
01:44:00,360 --> 01:44:03,479
Speaker 14: domination and diplomacy have long blended in Israeli statecraft, and

1785
01:44:03,520 --> 01:44:06,920
Speaker 14: today he says, they've been eclipsed by something Harsher quote

1786
01:44:07,120 --> 01:44:10,320
Speaker 14: a preference for domination, degradation and the prevention of the

1787
01:44:10,320 --> 01:44:14,160
Speaker 14: adversaries recovery. I mean, I think he's right, though, I

1788
01:44:14,200 --> 01:44:16,880
Speaker 14: think that we've seen kind of a at least a

1789
01:44:16,920 --> 01:44:19,559
Speaker 14: lower intensity, maybe not as high intensity, but we've seen

1790
01:44:19,800 --> 01:44:23,960
Speaker 14: a long scale policy of domination even before this moment.

1791
01:44:24,000 --> 01:44:26,360
Speaker 14: But I think this moment does definitely bring it out,

1792
01:44:26,680 --> 01:44:29,320
Speaker 14: which brings me to my question of like for Hesbola

1793
01:44:29,360 --> 01:44:33,400
Speaker 14: in particular, in the last year two years, like, there

1794
01:44:33,400 --> 01:44:36,920
Speaker 14: have been assassinations, we saw the Pager attack. You know,

1795
01:44:37,280 --> 01:44:41,479
Speaker 14: it seems that Hesbola has been very effectively weakened, and

1796
01:44:41,600 --> 01:44:45,240
Speaker 14: since the Israelians are now kind of going all out.

1797
01:44:45,720 --> 01:44:48,120
Speaker 14: What do you think is going to happen to Hezbolas

1798
01:44:48,479 --> 01:44:52,160
Speaker 14: as a group, set aside perhaps their public support or

1799
01:44:52,439 --> 01:44:53,439
Speaker 14: you know, lack thereof.

1800
01:44:53,880 --> 01:44:56,240
Speaker 15: So it's important to note that Hezbola comes from a

1801
01:44:56,240 --> 01:44:58,880
Speaker 15: certain context, are they as in the context of South

1802
01:44:58,960 --> 01:45:02,400
Speaker 15: lebanojing the isla ocupation of South Lebanon. There goes as

1803
01:45:02,400 --> 01:45:05,080
Speaker 15: the alternative to existing parties that were either seen as

1804
01:45:05,080 --> 01:45:07,400
Speaker 15: to complicity with the Israelis or maybe too weak or

1805
01:45:07,439 --> 01:45:10,920
Speaker 15: complacent or whatnot. And essentially because there was a need

1806
01:45:11,560 --> 01:45:13,439
Speaker 15: for something like has Ball at the time. And again

1807
01:45:13,479 --> 01:45:16,880
Speaker 15: this is completely regardless of my personal opposition to a

1808
01:45:16,880 --> 01:45:19,040
Speaker 15: lot of their politics, whether it's in Lebanon or especially

1809
01:45:19,080 --> 01:45:22,479
Speaker 15: in Syria. But that question, if you're going to call

1810
01:45:22,479 --> 01:45:25,120
Speaker 15: it the Lebanese question, it's completely being side stepped.

1811
01:45:25,160 --> 01:45:26,479
Speaker 5: It's not being tackled whatsoever.

1812
01:45:26,920 --> 01:45:29,639
Speaker 15: And in fact it's not that dissimilar I think from

1813
01:45:29,880 --> 01:45:32,920
Speaker 15: the Israeli attempt to erase or high to pretend as

1814
01:45:32,960 --> 01:45:35,200
Speaker 15: of the Palestinian question as well as can be completely

1815
01:45:35,240 --> 01:45:38,040
Speaker 15: side stepped. But they can just continue to pursue this

1816
01:45:38,560 --> 01:45:41,000
Speaker 15: policy of just complete domination, as you said, you know,

1817
01:45:41,040 --> 01:45:44,040
Speaker 15: make these Applemic codeas with the UEE and other some

1818
01:45:44,080 --> 01:45:47,639
Speaker 15: of the other Arab states, for example, without any mentions

1819
01:45:47,680 --> 01:45:49,840
Speaker 15: of Palestine and Palestinians and so on and so forth.

1820
01:45:50,280 --> 01:45:52,759
Speaker 15: And in the case of Lebanon is like less official

1821
01:45:52,960 --> 01:45:56,160
Speaker 15: because there isn't that component, but sort of the spirit

1822
01:45:56,240 --> 01:45:59,200
Speaker 15: of it is pretty similar. There is a sort of

1823
01:45:59,240 --> 01:46:02,280
Speaker 15: like illegally legalistic framework of the Land for Peace, and

1824
01:46:02,320 --> 01:46:04,720
Speaker 15: I think explaining that at least briefly would I think

1825
01:46:04,760 --> 01:46:07,559
Speaker 15: could actualize the quote that even you just read out

1826
01:46:07,560 --> 01:46:10,519
Speaker 15: to us here that you know, the Israelis occupied Arab

1827
01:46:10,600 --> 01:46:14,479
Speaker 15: terriatories in nineteen sixty seven. Palestinitary there obviously they're being

1828
01:46:14,600 --> 01:46:17,200
Speaker 15: guzz at the West Bank, and is Jerusalem. Egypt, of

1829
01:46:17,200 --> 01:46:20,519
Speaker 15: course was the Sinai and Ciria was and still is

1830
01:46:20,560 --> 01:46:23,040
Speaker 15: the Golden Heights. And so that the Land for Peace

1831
01:46:23,479 --> 01:46:26,280
Speaker 15: quote unquote worked. In the case of Egypt, they occupied

1832
01:46:26,280 --> 01:46:28,400
Speaker 15: the Sinai and then as part of a peace deal

1833
01:46:28,439 --> 01:46:31,080
Speaker 15: with Egypt they returned the Sinai to the Egyptians.

1834
01:46:31,760 --> 01:46:34,280
Speaker 5: It didn't happen with Syria.

1835
01:46:34,439 --> 01:46:38,160
Speaker 15: The Sian Golden Heights have been occupied since nineteen sixty seven,

1836
01:46:38,360 --> 01:46:41,599
Speaker 15: were effectively the factor annexed in nineteen eighty one. They've

1837
01:46:41,600 --> 01:46:44,479
Speaker 15: been annexed for so long that Smotrich himself was born

1838
01:46:44,560 --> 01:46:48,720
Speaker 15: in an illegal settlement in the Sying Golden Heights. And

1839
01:46:48,960 --> 01:46:52,439
Speaker 15: I'm mentioning this because the Lebanese state, the Prime Minister

1840
01:46:52,479 --> 01:46:55,360
Speaker 15: I mentioned earlier about what a week ago, ten days

1841
01:46:55,400 --> 01:46:58,040
Speaker 15: ago or so, said that he's hoping for a Land

1842
01:46:58,040 --> 01:47:01,959
Speaker 15: for Peace framework, which to me shows just how desperate

1843
01:47:02,479 --> 01:47:05,040
Speaker 15: even they are, like they don't know what to do,

1844
01:47:05,080 --> 01:47:07,200
Speaker 15: they have no options in front of them. So what

1845
01:47:07,240 --> 01:47:10,080
Speaker 15: they're hoping is that by doing all of these things

1846
01:47:10,120 --> 01:47:13,160
Speaker 15: public declarations against hezball law I, declaining some of the

1847
01:47:13,200 --> 01:47:15,960
Speaker 15: activities illegal by I think like a few days ago

1848
01:47:16,040 --> 01:47:18,280
Speaker 15: they said that the media cannot call them the resistance,

1849
01:47:18,320 --> 01:47:20,760
Speaker 15: for example, which is there in Arabic how they would

1850
01:47:20,760 --> 01:47:23,360
Speaker 15: be referred to, and so on and so forth, these

1851
01:47:23,360 --> 01:47:27,320
Speaker 15: attempts to placate the Americans especially, and so on, and

1852
01:47:27,360 --> 01:47:30,080
Speaker 15: maybe like show that you know, we're doing something about.

1853
01:47:29,800 --> 01:47:30,599
Speaker 5: This, can you stop?

1854
01:47:30,640 --> 01:47:33,800
Speaker 15: The Israelis essentially haven't achieved anything there is really have

1855
01:47:33,960 --> 01:47:37,040
Speaker 15: just escalated, continue to escalate, continue to bomb more and

1856
01:47:37,080 --> 01:47:39,879
Speaker 15: more and more larger in larger parts of the country.

1857
01:47:40,479 --> 01:47:42,680
Speaker 15: But that Land for Peace framework which is the frame

1858
01:47:42,720 --> 01:47:45,160
Speaker 15: of since the sixties basically is as far as I

1859
01:47:45,160 --> 01:47:46,880
Speaker 15: can tell right now, the only thing that the Debanese

1860
01:47:46,920 --> 01:47:51,520
Speaker 15: government hope that they can even use. But the difficulty

1861
01:47:51,520 --> 01:47:53,360
Speaker 15: in all of that, like a, I don't think it's

1862
01:47:53,439 --> 01:47:56,320
Speaker 15: it's realistic because of the same example, like they haven't

1863
01:47:56,360 --> 01:47:58,680
Speaker 15: they have never given up their Golden Heights. I don't

1864
01:47:58,720 --> 01:48:00,839
Speaker 15: see any reason why they would if they do decide

1865
01:48:01,000 --> 01:48:04,040
Speaker 15: to occupy all the stuth Lebanon. And also because the

1866
01:48:04,160 --> 01:48:05,960
Speaker 15: shift and this is what you're referring to with that

1867
01:48:06,040 --> 01:48:09,080
Speaker 15: code of that person you mentioned, the shift in Israeli

1868
01:48:09,080 --> 01:48:12,880
Speaker 15: politics in the past few decades. Isn't even that if

1869
01:48:12,920 --> 01:48:15,479
Speaker 15: you might call it strategic that like we're going to

1870
01:48:15,520 --> 01:48:17,320
Speaker 15: do the thing even if it's illegal. We're going to

1871
01:48:17,320 --> 01:48:20,080
Speaker 15: occupy land if it's illegal. But sort of like the

1872
01:48:20,160 --> 01:48:23,840
Speaker 15: ultimate purpose of it is something that resembles some kind

1873
01:48:23,880 --> 01:48:28,800
Speaker 15: of diplomatic negotiation. It's domination almost for its own sake.

1874
01:48:29,479 --> 01:48:32,600
Speaker 15: There is no end goal necessarily. You mentioned there of

1875
01:48:32,600 --> 01:48:34,920
Speaker 15: course religious Zionists, but you also have others that are

1876
01:48:34,960 --> 01:48:37,880
Speaker 15: not interested in settlements. They're just interested in destroying the land,

1877
01:48:38,200 --> 01:48:40,120
Speaker 15: like destroying having this so called buffer zone, which is

1878
01:48:40,120 --> 01:48:43,280
Speaker 15: a euphemism for just in no man's lands, just destroying everything.

1879
01:48:43,760 --> 01:48:46,760
Speaker 15: And so the policy can shift in a sense, but

1880
01:48:46,840 --> 01:48:49,519
Speaker 15: the intention is to just try and dominate for as

1881
01:48:49,560 --> 01:48:52,680
Speaker 15: long as possible for its own sake. And this is

1882
01:48:52,720 --> 01:48:56,200
Speaker 15: a wider pattern in Israeli politics that I don't know

1883
01:48:56,240 --> 01:48:58,519
Speaker 15: how well understood. It is maybe a bit more now

1884
01:48:58,560 --> 01:49:02,160
Speaker 15: than before, because even before the ongoing war you unstarted theft.

1885
01:49:02,160 --> 01:49:04,479
Speaker 15: Tally Bennet, who was the Prime Minister of Israel and

1886
01:49:04,760 --> 01:49:07,760
Speaker 15: reportedly wants to replace Natanya, who in the upcoming elections,

1887
01:49:07,920 --> 01:49:11,280
Speaker 15: said that Turkey is the next Evon. But virtually any

1888
01:49:11,800 --> 01:49:15,800
Speaker 15: Israeli paper center and further to the right, which is

1889
01:49:15,800 --> 01:49:18,040
Speaker 15: most of them, you read them, there is someone who

1890
01:49:18,040 --> 01:49:19,760
Speaker 15: has at some point in this I'm not talking to

1891
01:49:19,840 --> 01:49:21,839
Speaker 15: this a random person, I'm talking like a high ranking

1892
01:49:21,880 --> 01:49:24,840
Speaker 15: politician and military official at some point this hype like

1893
01:49:24,920 --> 01:49:28,160
Speaker 15: Turkey as being next. And what needs to be understood

1894
01:49:28,160 --> 01:49:30,400
Speaker 15: with all of this is not or can they actually

1895
01:49:30,479 --> 01:49:31,160
Speaker 15: do this or whatnot?

1896
01:49:31,200 --> 01:49:32,599
Speaker 5: Because maybe they can't. I don't know.

1897
01:49:32,840 --> 01:49:35,760
Speaker 15: I hope we never find out, but it's that like

1898
01:49:35,800 --> 01:49:39,800
Speaker 15: they can't stop. It's becoming an end in itself. There

1899
01:49:39,840 --> 01:49:41,479
Speaker 15: has to be an enemy there has to be a

1900
01:49:41,520 --> 01:49:45,479
Speaker 15: constant creation almost of like an external enemy in like

1901
01:49:45,520 --> 01:49:49,800
Speaker 15: in Israeli political discourse today, because nothing else works in

1902
01:49:49,800 --> 01:49:50,559
Speaker 15: Italy politics.

1903
01:49:50,600 --> 01:49:53,120
Speaker 5: And this is a shift in Isaeli politics in the past.

1904
01:49:53,120 --> 01:49:54,639
Speaker 15: I'm going to say, I don't know, two three decades,

1905
01:49:54,640 --> 01:49:57,880
Speaker 15: don't know how one would start counting that shift. And

1906
01:49:57,920 --> 01:50:00,840
Speaker 15: it does go back to the Palestinian question, and in

1907
01:50:00,880 --> 01:50:03,439
Speaker 15: the sense of like them not wanting to address it

1908
01:50:03,520 --> 01:50:06,240
Speaker 15: at all, not even pretending that they're going to, because

1909
01:50:06,240 --> 01:50:09,000
Speaker 15: they've been pretending, you know, obviously not actually doing it,

1910
01:50:09,040 --> 01:50:10,720
Speaker 15: but even pretending that, you know, they were doing so

1911
01:50:10,760 --> 01:50:13,240
Speaker 15: with the Austro accord and whatnot. There isn't even that

1912
01:50:13,560 --> 01:50:17,519
Speaker 15: I think it's useful to understand their attitude towards Lebanon

1913
01:50:17,960 --> 01:50:21,400
Speaker 15: as at least in part, a continuation of that attitude

1914
01:50:21,439 --> 01:50:24,439
Speaker 15: towards Palestinians, and in many ways, like the Palestine question itself,

1915
01:50:24,520 --> 01:50:27,559
Speaker 15: he means the one that they want to avoid at

1916
01:50:27,560 --> 01:50:31,160
Speaker 15: all costs, and whatever that means, bombing Iran, bombing Lebanon,

1917
01:50:31,560 --> 01:50:34,400
Speaker 15: bombing other countries later I don't know, obviously bombing year

1918
01:50:34,439 --> 01:50:36,200
Speaker 15: they've already done it, you know, and so on and

1919
01:50:36,200 --> 01:50:36,679
Speaker 15: so forth.

1920
01:50:37,040 --> 01:50:39,559
Speaker 4: Genocide as a tool of concept management.

1921
01:50:39,960 --> 01:50:43,240
Speaker 15: Yeah, yeah, it's just domination, I said, for its own sake,

1922
01:50:43,280 --> 01:50:46,120
Speaker 15: because they can't imagine any kind of other alternative, and

1923
01:50:46,600 --> 01:50:49,120
Speaker 15: they haven't had a need to do so, because you know,

1924
01:50:49,120 --> 01:50:51,759
Speaker 15: as you said, they've gotten away with a livestream genocide

1925
01:50:51,800 --> 01:50:54,280
Speaker 15: for over two years now, why would they think differently

1926
01:50:54,360 --> 01:50:57,840
Speaker 15: about Lebanon, a very poor country that you know, doesn't

1927
01:50:57,880 --> 01:51:00,720
Speaker 15: have that many resources and whatnot. Which isn't to say

1928
01:51:00,720 --> 01:51:03,519
Speaker 15: that they would succeed and they will win and so on.

1929
01:51:03,600 --> 01:51:05,719
Speaker 15: But what they've been saying this is the intention.

1930
01:51:06,479 --> 01:51:07,599
Speaker 2: I think that's very valid.

1931
01:51:08,080 --> 01:51:10,439
Speaker 14: I mean, it's not a coincidence you said, you know,

1932
01:51:11,080 --> 01:51:13,040
Speaker 14: you would try to trace it back to like the

1933
01:51:13,040 --> 01:51:15,360
Speaker 14: past two or three decades. It's not a coincidence that

1934
01:51:15,880 --> 01:51:21,719
Speaker 14: this mentality and this you know, reorientation of Israel's entire

1935
01:51:21,800 --> 01:51:27,000
Speaker 14: policy especially comes after the end of the Second Pausani

1936
01:51:27,080 --> 01:51:31,200
Speaker 14: Intfalda and then not even just no meaningful negotiations, no

1937
01:51:31,320 --> 01:51:34,360
Speaker 14: negotiations at all. Like you said, there was the Land

1938
01:51:34,400 --> 01:51:38,240
Speaker 14: for Peace mantra. The idea with that is that they

1939
01:51:38,240 --> 01:51:41,120
Speaker 14: were going to get peace if they give back land.

1940
01:51:41,200 --> 01:51:43,280
Speaker 14: But the underlying assumption of that is that they would

1941
01:51:43,280 --> 01:51:47,880
Speaker 14: be held accountable by the international community by their own allies.

1942
01:51:48,439 --> 01:51:52,400
Speaker 14: After the Second Intafauda, basically the Americans and the international

1943
01:51:52,400 --> 01:51:56,920
Speaker 14: community gave up, essentially even pretending that Palestinians would ever

1944
01:51:57,520 --> 01:52:01,880
Speaker 14: get anything. This has culminated now and Israel that as

1945
01:52:01,880 --> 01:52:04,840
Speaker 14: you said, it's domination for domination's sake, and they think

1946
01:52:05,160 --> 01:52:10,200
Speaker 14: that they can maintain control in this way. Now Turkey

1947
01:52:10,360 --> 01:52:12,479
Speaker 14: is going to be a different beast than Iran. Turkey's

1948
01:52:12,520 --> 01:52:16,000
Speaker 14: and NATO member. But as we've seen in the last

1949
01:52:16,040 --> 01:52:19,720
Speaker 14: couple of weeks, like they don't care about blowing up

1950
01:52:19,760 --> 01:52:22,120
Speaker 14: the entire region, they don't care about the Strait up

1951
01:52:22,160 --> 01:52:24,959
Speaker 14: Hormus being closed, they don't care about oil fields being attacked,

1952
01:52:24,960 --> 01:52:27,599
Speaker 14: and they don't care about you know, the global economy tanking.

1953
01:52:27,680 --> 01:52:31,080
Speaker 14: Like it's not inconceivable that they attack Turkey, even if

1954
01:52:31,080 --> 01:52:33,080
Speaker 14: the outcome might be different or we might see like

1955
01:52:33,479 --> 01:52:36,880
Speaker 14: further escalations, it's not inconceivable. And now I just want

1956
01:52:36,920 --> 01:52:39,519
Speaker 14: to point this out the very kind of pro Israel

1957
01:52:39,640 --> 01:52:43,280
Speaker 14: think tank in Washington, the Foundation for the Defensive Democracy.

1958
01:52:43,720 --> 01:52:47,639
Speaker 14: Their new line now is to say land for peace

1959
01:52:47,680 --> 01:52:53,360
Speaker 14: is outdated. Now we need to pursue instead peace for land, Yeah,

1960
01:52:53,400 --> 01:52:57,080
Speaker 14: which means acceptance of Zionism earns these people a right

1961
01:52:57,479 --> 01:52:58,479
Speaker 14: to govern themselves.

1962
01:53:09,360 --> 01:53:12,360
Speaker 15: It's a politicular vision that does not see the other

1963
01:53:12,880 --> 01:53:16,519
Speaker 15: as humans, as having agency, as as as deserving anything.

1964
01:53:16,880 --> 01:53:20,040
Speaker 15: It's not like they have an opposing side on an

1965
01:53:20,080 --> 01:53:23,400
Speaker 15: opponent that they want to defeat, but ultimately have some

1966
01:53:23,520 --> 01:53:26,320
Speaker 15: kind of settlement or or and move beyond that or whatnot.

1967
01:53:26,760 --> 01:53:29,000
Speaker 5: There is no long term plan, is what I'm trying

1968
01:53:29,040 --> 01:53:30,080
Speaker 5: to say, I guess.

1969
01:53:30,080 --> 01:53:31,840
Speaker 15: And maybe to emphasize a bit more in the case

1970
01:53:31,880 --> 01:53:33,840
Speaker 15: in the case of Lebinon, like, so, what happens next

1971
01:53:33,840 --> 01:53:36,519
Speaker 15: for Hesbela, for example, I'm not entirely sure.

1972
01:53:36,520 --> 01:53:38,080
Speaker 5: I don't I don't think anyone really knows.

1973
01:53:38,120 --> 01:53:42,520
Speaker 15: It's it seems clear that the Israelis underestimated their capabilities.

1974
01:53:42,920 --> 01:53:45,639
Speaker 15: But to what extent that will matter if the Israels

1975
01:53:45,640 --> 01:53:47,760
Speaker 15: continue to just bomb and bomb and bomb Lebanon for

1976
01:53:47,880 --> 01:53:49,559
Speaker 15: weeks on end, if not on end, and so on,

1977
01:53:50,040 --> 01:53:52,280
Speaker 15: I can't tell. What I can tell is that in

1978
01:53:52,320 --> 01:53:54,560
Speaker 15: the same way as the Israelis want to ignore the

1979
01:53:54,640 --> 01:53:58,160
Speaker 15: Palestinian question, but it's still it's still there. It haunts

1980
01:53:58,160 --> 01:54:02,320
Speaker 15: them in a way because I work onontology, and in

1981
01:54:02,360 --> 01:54:03,040
Speaker 15: case of Lebanon.

1982
01:54:03,080 --> 01:54:05,439
Speaker 5: There is also that in many ways that.

1983
01:54:05,520 --> 01:54:07,439
Speaker 15: If you look at the shift in this course, even

1984
01:54:07,439 --> 01:54:10,679
Speaker 15: within Israeli politics from like let's say seventies, but especially

1985
01:54:10,680 --> 01:54:13,760
Speaker 15: eighties onwards. I'm not going to say it was never good,

1986
01:54:13,880 --> 01:54:17,800
Speaker 15: but there was a stronger component of the Israeli politicians,

1987
01:54:17,880 --> 01:54:20,679
Speaker 15: let's say, like a higher percentage of them anyway, that were,

1988
01:54:20,880 --> 01:54:23,599
Speaker 15: for lack of a better term, pragmatic that we're willing

1989
01:54:23,640 --> 01:54:25,759
Speaker 15: to have concessions, that we're wanting to have whatever, because

1990
01:54:25,880 --> 01:54:27,719
Speaker 15: if only because they just did not want to deal

1991
01:54:27,760 --> 01:54:30,600
Speaker 15: with like occupying a foreign country that they had no

1992
01:54:30,640 --> 01:54:33,520
Speaker 15: intention to legally annexed, as they did with the legally

1993
01:54:33,680 --> 01:54:35,360
Speaker 15: none of this is legal, but like within Israel law,

1994
01:54:35,400 --> 01:54:37,760
Speaker 15: I mean, as they did with the Golden Heights. And

1995
01:54:37,800 --> 01:54:39,560
Speaker 15: so that's what I'm saying in the case of Lebanon,

1996
01:54:39,640 --> 01:54:42,680
Speaker 15: that it's almost like the worst case scenario is what's

1997
01:54:42,720 --> 01:54:43,520
Speaker 15: currently happening.

1998
01:54:43,560 --> 01:54:45,240
Speaker 5: And that's like completely.

1999
01:54:44,720 --> 01:54:48,120
Speaker 15: Regardless of what happens to Hesbola, because Hezbola can disappeared

2000
01:54:48,120 --> 01:54:50,960
Speaker 15: tomorrow and the problem will continue to be the same,

2001
01:54:51,000 --> 01:54:54,760
Speaker 15: if not just get worse. The country has no economy

2002
01:54:54,880 --> 01:54:58,120
Speaker 15: to speak of, the currency was already devalued during the

2003
01:54:58,120 --> 01:54:59,320
Speaker 15: economic crisis, was one of the.

2004
01:54:59,320 --> 01:55:00,720
Speaker 5: Highest value in the world.

2005
01:55:01,240 --> 01:55:05,400
Speaker 15: And there are no prospects going forward in terms of

2006
01:55:05,400 --> 01:55:08,520
Speaker 15: like making this accountry that can even sustain itself. It's

2007
01:55:08,520 --> 01:55:12,400
Speaker 15: already very like import dependent. But if you exclude the

2008
01:55:12,920 --> 01:55:15,920
Speaker 15: South Lebanon and it being a bread basket, East Lebanon

2009
01:55:15,960 --> 01:55:18,520
Speaker 15: as well, by the way, it's also a bread basket,

2010
01:55:18,560 --> 01:55:21,360
Speaker 15: and that's another aa of Lebanon that the realies have

2011
01:55:21,440 --> 01:55:25,240
Speaker 15: been constantly bombarding, to paraphrase, that is really ministered that like,

2012
01:55:25,320 --> 01:55:27,320
Speaker 15: Lebanon is not a state, it's not a nation. It doesn't,

2013
01:55:27,520 --> 01:55:29,760
Speaker 15: it doesn't, it's just a place that's on the map.

2014
01:55:30,280 --> 01:55:32,120
Speaker 5: And that will.

2015
01:55:31,920 --> 01:55:34,600
Speaker 15: Pose a problem obviously first and foremost for us, like

2016
01:55:34,680 --> 01:55:36,800
Speaker 15: for the Lebanese and people who live in Lebanon, but

2017
01:55:36,920 --> 01:55:40,280
Speaker 15: it's also a problem geopolitically. It's a problem internationally. It

2018
01:55:40,320 --> 01:55:42,560
Speaker 15: will freak out the EU in terms of the refugee

2019
01:55:42,560 --> 01:55:45,760
Speaker 15: crisis because the EU has actually counted on Lebanon to

2020
01:55:46,000 --> 01:55:48,400
Speaker 15: keep a lot of people in Lebanon. They extend like

2021
01:55:48,400 --> 01:55:50,200
Speaker 15: a billion euros. I think it was two or three

2022
01:55:50,280 --> 01:55:51,800
Speaker 15: years ago or something like that. I got about it

2023
01:55:51,800 --> 01:55:54,280
Speaker 15: twitches a year at the time. Actually because Lebanon had

2024
01:55:54,360 --> 01:55:56,600
Speaker 15: the highest percentage maybe still does now. I don't know

2025
01:55:56,880 --> 01:55:59,520
Speaker 15: of refugees per capital, so to speak, like compared to

2026
01:55:59,640 --> 01:56:02,920
Speaker 15: citizens in the world one million or so sceneor refugees

2027
01:56:03,040 --> 01:56:05,240
Speaker 15: with got three five million Lebanese or something like that

2028
01:56:05,280 --> 01:56:05,880
Speaker 15: along those lines.

2029
01:56:05,880 --> 01:56:06,960
Speaker 5: There's no census in Lebanon.

2030
01:56:07,560 --> 01:56:10,160
Speaker 15: So I'm saying all of this to sort of emphasize

2031
01:56:10,200 --> 01:56:12,960
Speaker 15: the why there is this sense of despair in the

2032
01:56:13,000 --> 01:56:17,240
Speaker 15: country and why if that's not even remotely addressed. Whatever

2033
01:56:17,360 --> 01:56:19,840
Speaker 15: fires we're seeing now, whatever like hors we're seeing, I

2034
01:56:19,960 --> 01:56:23,040
Speaker 15: just don't see any any way. They will stop anytime soon,

2035
01:56:23,320 --> 01:56:25,640
Speaker 15: whatever happens, even to his bottle next. There's no reason

2036
01:56:25,680 --> 01:56:29,200
Speaker 15: to imagine that some other group wouldn't be formed at

2037
01:56:29,200 --> 01:56:32,760
Speaker 15: some point because people live there, people are from that lane.

2038
01:56:32,760 --> 01:56:36,160
Speaker 15: We're talking about a million people. They have nowhere else

2039
01:56:36,200 --> 01:56:38,680
Speaker 15: to go. It's not like the Lebanese passport is so

2040
01:56:38,720 --> 01:56:40,080
Speaker 15: good that you can just you know, go on a

2041
01:56:40,080 --> 01:56:41,920
Speaker 15: flight and go so but there's nowhere else. They're just

2042
01:56:41,960 --> 01:56:43,920
Speaker 15: going to stay in Lebanon, and many of them would

2043
01:56:43,920 --> 01:56:45,640
Speaker 15: want to, of course go back to South Lebanon.

2044
01:56:45,880 --> 01:56:47,480
Speaker 5: This problem is not going away.

2045
01:56:47,920 --> 01:56:51,400
Speaker 15: But if you hear the rhetoric of your Nitanyajo, you're

2046
01:56:51,440 --> 01:56:54,280
Speaker 15: you're in your other politicians, like this is not part

2047
01:56:54,280 --> 01:56:55,920
Speaker 15: of the picture. This has nothing to do with what

2048
01:56:55,960 --> 01:57:00,320
Speaker 15: their intentions are. They're exclusively talking to other Israelis. Is

2049
01:57:00,320 --> 01:57:04,280
Speaker 15: not whether we should destroy South Lebanon or whether we

2050
01:57:04,320 --> 01:57:05,839
Speaker 15: should destroy Lebanon itself.

2051
01:57:06,120 --> 01:57:08,280
Speaker 5: The debate is what do we do once it's destroyed?

2052
01:57:08,600 --> 01:57:10,360
Speaker 15: And even that it is barely a debate, but like

2053
01:57:10,400 --> 01:57:12,080
Speaker 15: that's the extent of where it goes in terms of

2054
01:57:12,120 --> 01:57:15,200
Speaker 15: like it's really discourse. And yeah, I guess maybe just

2055
01:57:15,200 --> 01:57:17,800
Speaker 15: to drive the point home that if the Israelis themselves

2056
01:57:17,880 --> 01:57:21,280
Speaker 15: are not stopped in one way or another by their allies,

2057
01:57:21,280 --> 01:57:23,480
Speaker 15: obvious the America has the biggest leverage, or the EU

2058
01:57:23,640 --> 01:57:25,800
Speaker 15: being the second closest one in one way or another,

2059
01:57:26,440 --> 01:57:30,560
Speaker 15: whatever the means are. Economic boycott withdrawing your ambassador as

2060
01:57:30,600 --> 01:57:32,520
Speaker 15: Pain has done a couple of weeks ago. But just

2061
01:57:32,560 --> 01:57:35,760
Speaker 15: like on a global scale, like even maybe dwarfing the

2062
01:57:36,360 --> 01:57:39,840
Speaker 15: and the boycott campaign against Aparthe South Africa at the time,

2063
01:57:40,680 --> 01:57:43,400
Speaker 15: this problem is just going to expand, and people in

2064
01:57:43,440 --> 01:57:46,280
Speaker 15: listening to this of course see that seeing version of

2065
01:57:46,320 --> 01:57:49,200
Speaker 15: that Iran can just close the strait of Homus and

2066
01:57:49,200 --> 01:57:52,960
Speaker 15: then suddenly everyone this is everyone's problem is well and

2067
01:57:53,160 --> 01:57:55,720
Speaker 15: America bombing those oil depots, and of course Elon has

2068
01:57:55,720 --> 01:57:59,240
Speaker 15: also done that in retaliation, but proportionately still more the

2069
01:57:59,240 --> 01:58:03,160
Speaker 15: Americans in this Ali has polluted like I forgot the number,

2070
01:58:03,160 --> 01:58:06,040
Speaker 15: but like the equivalent of like eighty four countries combined

2071
01:58:06,640 --> 01:58:08,760
Speaker 15: in terms of like the toxins release in these are

2072
01:58:08,760 --> 01:58:11,640
Speaker 15: things that people in Iran are breathing in. And the

2073
01:58:11,800 --> 01:58:15,880
Speaker 15: entire region relies on design nation plants. And the Americans

2074
01:58:15,880 --> 01:58:18,960
Speaker 15: bombed one in Iran, Iran retaliated and bombed another one

2075
01:58:19,000 --> 01:58:23,960
Speaker 15: in Bahrain. If that continues, who knows. There's been increasing attems,

2076
01:58:24,120 --> 01:58:27,200
Speaker 15: not as attems, actually strikes, including just yesterday against like

2077
01:58:27,600 --> 01:58:30,360
Speaker 15: nuclear facilities or like close enough to nuclear facilities, so

2078
01:58:30,400 --> 01:58:31,400
Speaker 15: who knows what would have happen.

2079
01:58:31,440 --> 01:58:33,400
Speaker 5: Then to say it's out of control.

2080
01:58:33,160 --> 01:58:35,840
Speaker 15: Would be like meaningless at this point, But there are

2081
01:58:36,000 --> 01:58:39,440
Speaker 15: levels of where this can go. And Lebanon is in

2082
01:58:40,040 --> 01:58:43,280
Speaker 15: a sense like deceivingly small. There's a book Would Beware

2083
01:58:43,280 --> 01:58:46,520
Speaker 15: of Small States that talks about Lebanon because a lot

2084
01:58:46,560 --> 01:58:48,840
Speaker 15: of the world is happening in Lebanon. To put it

2085
01:58:48,880 --> 01:58:51,640
Speaker 15: to kind of put it maybe metaphorically, and the trends

2086
01:58:51,720 --> 01:58:54,600
Speaker 15: that are being done to the Lebanese or two people

2087
01:58:54,640 --> 01:58:57,080
Speaker 15: in Lebanon, like the DOJ doctrine in two thousand and

2088
01:58:57,160 --> 01:59:01,000
Speaker 15: six was then used in Gaza, obviously, and now they're

2089
01:59:01,000 --> 01:59:03,879
Speaker 15: saying that they're going to use the Gaza methodology in Lebanon's.

2090
01:59:03,880 --> 01:59:05,640
Speaker 15: It's like it came back to Lebanon in a sense.

2091
01:59:06,080 --> 01:59:08,440
Speaker 15: But the point is that this will continue. There is

2092
01:59:08,480 --> 01:59:11,280
Speaker 15: no objective reason to believe that if has Bola is

2093
01:59:11,320 --> 01:59:15,560
Speaker 15: destroyed and completely disarmed and what have you, that this

2094
01:59:15,960 --> 01:59:18,480
Speaker 15: problem is going to go away, because if anything, a

2095
01:59:18,560 --> 01:59:21,240
Speaker 15: new beast of some kind is going to be to

2096
01:59:21,320 --> 01:59:23,400
Speaker 15: be created in the fires in the same way that

2097
01:59:23,400 --> 01:59:26,240
Speaker 15: has Bola was hated in the initial ones. And so yeah,

2098
01:59:26,320 --> 01:59:28,680
Speaker 15: the problem ultimately, and I say this as someone who

2099
01:59:28,720 --> 01:59:33,040
Speaker 15: has been campaigning, writing, gotten the death threats from like

2100
01:59:33,080 --> 01:59:36,400
Speaker 15: Hesballa supporters in twenty nineteen when I was as part

2101
01:59:36,400 --> 01:59:38,360
Speaker 15: of the protest, we were beaten up by them. This

2102
01:59:38,600 --> 01:59:42,400
Speaker 15: comes from no sympathy whatsoever towards them. It's just an acknowledgement,

2103
01:59:42,680 --> 01:59:44,800
Speaker 15: I'm also a historian, that they come from a certain

2104
01:59:44,840 --> 01:59:48,760
Speaker 15: context and if that context is not acknowledged at all,

2105
01:59:48,800 --> 01:59:51,040
Speaker 15: and in fact the conditions that brought them are now

2106
01:59:51,320 --> 01:59:54,840
Speaker 15: much worse than even the eighties. Why would we believe

2107
01:59:54,880 --> 01:59:57,840
Speaker 15: that something else won't come along later on in one

2108
01:59:57,840 --> 02:00:00,880
Speaker 15: way or another. And this no that the Aeties have

2109
02:00:01,000 --> 02:00:04,280
Speaker 15: they're just a buffer zone and then destabilized Lebanon endlessly

2110
02:00:04,400 --> 02:00:06,800
Speaker 15: or whatever it might be. It also comes from like

2111
02:00:06,840 --> 02:00:09,000
Speaker 15: the sort of imperious hubiists that they believe that this

2112
02:00:09,160 --> 02:00:11,680
Speaker 15: won't harm them in one way or another, that they

2113
02:00:11,720 --> 02:00:15,960
Speaker 15: can endlessly and permanently have enabled to their north that

2114
02:00:16,080 --> 02:00:18,680
Speaker 15: has a lot of armed components and also constantly.

2115
02:00:18,280 --> 02:00:19,640
Speaker 5: At war or whatever it might be.

2116
02:00:20,200 --> 02:00:23,360
Speaker 15: It's Hubans, it's imperiadt hubids, and it's also extremely extremely

2117
02:00:23,400 --> 02:00:26,560
Speaker 15: dangerous even beyond just what would happen to people in Lebanon.

2118
02:00:27,160 --> 02:00:30,960
Speaker 14: Yeah, it's hard to, like you said, underscore how apocalyptic

2119
02:00:31,880 --> 02:00:35,360
Speaker 14: this is turning out to be, whether it's we're worried

2120
02:00:35,400 --> 02:00:38,440
Speaker 14: about the refugee waves that are going to be generated

2121
02:00:38,440 --> 02:00:41,360
Speaker 14: because of this, whether we're worried about the ecological impact,

2122
02:00:42,240 --> 02:00:47,000
Speaker 14: whether we're worried about non state actors, militia groups, violent

2123
02:00:47,040 --> 02:00:48,280
Speaker 14: groups emerging in the future.

2124
02:00:48,360 --> 02:00:51,160
Speaker 4: Like, on every level, this is not sustainable.

2125
02:00:51,680 --> 02:00:52,040
Speaker 2: I don't know.

2126
02:00:52,080 --> 02:00:55,640
Speaker 14: I feel like I'm screaming into a void. Except we've known,

2127
02:00:55,880 --> 02:00:58,600
Speaker 14: We've known, like you said, for decades that this is

2128
02:00:58,640 --> 02:01:02,000
Speaker 14: not sustainable. This is this is not a sustainable situation

2129
02:01:02,120 --> 02:01:04,760
Speaker 14: in the Middle East. And I want people to know

2130
02:01:05,000 --> 02:01:07,200
Speaker 14: that this is not a trumpet problem.

2131
02:01:07,800 --> 02:01:08,720
Speaker 4: This has long.

2132
02:01:08,560 --> 02:01:14,080
Speaker 14: Been a problem of American decision makers. Biden in particular,

2133
02:01:14,640 --> 02:01:17,600
Speaker 14: also like bears a lot to blame for this situation.

2134
02:01:18,920 --> 02:01:22,600
Speaker 14: It's just like you said, it's an imperial hubris, both

2135
02:01:22,640 --> 02:01:25,200
Speaker 14: on the part of Israel and the United States. But

2136
02:01:26,280 --> 02:01:30,840
Speaker 14: it's also at its root the fact that they completely

2137
02:01:30,880 --> 02:01:34,000
Speaker 14: dehumanize people in the Middle East, like they don't see

2138
02:01:34,000 --> 02:01:40,880
Speaker 14: them as as human beings that will have human reactions. So, yeah,

2139
02:01:41,160 --> 02:01:43,560
Speaker 14: I'm not saying I'm not adding anything to what you're saying.

2140
02:01:43,600 --> 02:01:47,000
Speaker 14: I'm just emphasizing here because I'm, you know, as outraged

2141
02:01:47,040 --> 02:01:47,280
Speaker 14: as you.

2142
02:01:48,040 --> 02:01:48,240
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2143
02:01:48,320 --> 02:01:51,000
Speaker 15: Yeah, And like the thing is that it's it's sort

2144
02:01:51,000 --> 02:01:53,800
Speaker 15: of the same principle in a sense of the same

2145
02:01:53,880 --> 02:01:56,320
Speaker 15: understanding that also led me to like for years now,

2146
02:01:56,360 --> 02:01:59,240
Speaker 15: to oppose the Ionian regime. It's the same understanding. It's

2147
02:01:59,240 --> 02:02:02,400
Speaker 15: not just that their brutality towards people within Iran of course,

2148
02:02:02,400 --> 02:02:05,720
Speaker 15: but they have. They have engaged in plist campaigns in

2149
02:02:06,000 --> 02:02:09,080
Speaker 15: Cim most notably, but also in Iraq and in Lebanon.

2150
02:02:09,200 --> 02:02:10,880
Speaker 15: Is like a different kind of thing, but there is

2151
02:02:10,920 --> 02:02:14,440
Speaker 15: that that component of it as well that hasn't contributed

2152
02:02:14,440 --> 02:02:17,200
Speaker 15: to make them like a better opponent of the Israelis

2153
02:02:17,240 --> 02:02:17,839
Speaker 15: or the Americans.

2154
02:02:17,840 --> 02:02:21,280
Speaker 5: If anything, it's made them weaker. One of the many problems.

2155
02:02:21,320 --> 02:02:22,920
Speaker 15: But I think the biggest one now is that this

2156
02:02:23,200 --> 02:02:27,480
Speaker 15: is and this is completely regardless of the ethics of

2157
02:02:27,520 --> 02:02:30,200
Speaker 15: the Iranian regime, which I've opposed for several years as well.

2158
02:02:30,240 --> 02:02:32,560
Speaker 15: This has nothing to do with supporting them or excusing

2159
02:02:32,600 --> 02:02:36,760
Speaker 15: their actions or anything like that, but just understanding why

2160
02:02:37,320 --> 02:02:40,480
Speaker 15: the Israelites are acting. Specifically, the Israelis are acting the

2161
02:02:40,520 --> 02:02:42,680
Speaker 15: way they have been acting for years now.

2162
02:02:42,920 --> 02:02:43,839
Speaker 5: There is this tendency.

2163
02:02:43,840 --> 02:02:45,240
Speaker 15: I mean, if you go on the Garden for example,

2164
02:02:45,280 --> 02:02:46,920
Speaker 15: now you see like crisis in the Middle East, and

2165
02:02:47,040 --> 02:02:48,240
Speaker 15: you can click on it, and then you just go

2166
02:02:48,360 --> 02:02:50,800
Speaker 15: book years and years and years as though it's the

2167
02:02:50,840 --> 02:02:53,080
Speaker 15: same thing as like you know, it's just displays that

2168
02:02:53,120 --> 02:02:56,080
Speaker 15: has crises, and it's sort of like you expect that

2169
02:02:56,120 --> 02:02:59,000
Speaker 15: this will happen. But as I think people know a

2170
02:02:59,000 --> 02:03:03,280
Speaker 15: bit better. Now the global component of it. This also

2171
02:03:03,360 --> 02:03:06,720
Speaker 15: has a global ramification. Even the technologies that are being

2172
02:03:06,840 --> 02:03:08,880
Speaker 15: pioneered if you want, by the Israelis and also by

2173
02:03:08,920 --> 02:03:12,120
Speaker 15: the Americans to some extent in places like Gaza, then

2174
02:03:12,160 --> 02:03:15,320
Speaker 15: get exported elsewhere. Palenteer is now going to be a

2175
02:03:15,360 --> 02:03:17,720
Speaker 15: penalty AI is now going to be a core component

2176
02:03:18,080 --> 02:03:21,080
Speaker 15: of the US military. These are things that are like

2177
02:03:21,400 --> 02:03:24,640
Speaker 15: because that's what I mean by like. Lebanon is deceptively small.

2178
02:03:25,080 --> 02:03:28,320
Speaker 15: It's like, it's not important geopolitically for the most part.

2179
02:03:28,640 --> 02:03:30,920
Speaker 15: But because that is the case, and of course Gaza

2180
02:03:30,920 --> 02:03:34,280
Speaker 15: as well, then it allows it has allowed the Israelis

2181
02:03:34,320 --> 02:03:37,560
Speaker 15: to get away with a lot of things. So maybe

2182
02:03:37,560 --> 02:03:40,200
Speaker 15: this is, I don't know, a cliched or I don't know,

2183
02:03:40,200 --> 02:03:43,520
Speaker 15: it's a meaningless thing to repeat. But the problem really

2184
02:03:43,560 --> 02:03:46,400
Speaker 15: goes back to impunity. The problem really goes back to

2185
02:03:46,440 --> 02:03:49,680
Speaker 15: the fact that nothing the Israelis have ever done, at

2186
02:03:49,800 --> 02:03:53,120
Speaker 15: least in the past several decades, has had any consequences

2187
02:03:53,200 --> 02:03:55,440
Speaker 15: to them, to what they do to the region and

2188
02:03:55,480 --> 02:03:59,440
Speaker 15: so on. And this is absolutely a biparthisan problem in America.

2189
02:03:59,680 --> 02:04:02,400
Speaker 15: None of this would be possible without the Americans. There's

2190
02:04:02,440 --> 02:04:04,120
Speaker 15: a very good argument to be made that if we're

2191
02:04:04,160 --> 02:04:06,760
Speaker 15: talking about the iscaely occupation of Palestine, we need to

2192
02:04:06,760 --> 02:04:10,120
Speaker 15: say the American is raely occupation of Palestine, the bombing

2193
02:04:10,160 --> 02:04:12,560
Speaker 15: of Lebanon, we need to say. It's also none of

2194
02:04:12,560 --> 02:04:17,520
Speaker 15: this would be physically possible, diplomatically possible, economically possible were

2195
02:04:17,560 --> 02:04:20,680
Speaker 15: it not for this unconditional support that the Israelis have

2196
02:04:20,760 --> 02:04:23,880
Speaker 15: gotten from the Americans for decades and decades now. If

2197
02:04:23,880 --> 02:04:28,440
Speaker 15: Biden had done anything about Israel's genocide and Gaza, really

2198
02:04:28,480 --> 02:04:30,880
Speaker 15: almost anything, I don't think we would be aware we

2199
02:04:30,920 --> 02:04:33,400
Speaker 15: are today. And so no, this is not a Trump problem.

2200
02:04:33,400 --> 02:04:36,920
Speaker 15: It's just that Trump being Trump is making it much worse.

2201
02:04:37,120 --> 02:04:40,640
Speaker 15: Speeding it up, is just exploding everything even faster, speeding

2202
02:04:40,640 --> 02:04:43,280
Speaker 15: it up and adding new dimensions to it, and so

2203
02:04:43,280 --> 02:04:45,480
Speaker 15: on and so forth. But the problem goes back to

2204
02:04:45,560 --> 02:04:48,960
Speaker 15: American imperialist hubris, a lot of people not knowing what

2205
02:04:48,960 --> 02:04:51,120
Speaker 15: they're even doing in the region, and the consequences of

2206
02:04:51,160 --> 02:04:53,160
Speaker 15: it all. So, yeah, I'm not someone who tends to

2207
02:04:53,200 --> 02:04:56,760
Speaker 15: be very pessimistic necessarily and stuff like that, but there's

2208
02:04:56,840 --> 02:05:00,320
Speaker 15: a lot of ways in which what is currently happening

2209
02:05:00,400 --> 02:05:02,320
Speaker 15: in terms of the iscaily and American war on Iran,

2210
02:05:02,440 --> 02:05:05,440
Speaker 15: and it's Gaily war Lebanon and so on that can

2211
02:05:05,640 --> 02:05:10,640
Speaker 15: just go to different levels that I generally, and I'm

2212
02:05:10,680 --> 02:05:12,880
Speaker 15: someone who has report even reported on conflicts for a

2213
02:05:12,920 --> 02:05:17,040
Speaker 15: long time now, generally struggle to even imagine. And I

2214
02:05:17,040 --> 02:05:18,880
Speaker 15: don't want to stand like I'm just panicking or anything

2215
02:05:18,880 --> 02:05:20,520
Speaker 15: like that, or d is there is a component of that,

2216
02:05:21,120 --> 02:05:25,320
Speaker 15: but it is a real problem that if Israel is

2217
02:05:25,400 --> 02:05:29,960
Speaker 15: not stopped in any way at this point, this will

2218
02:05:29,960 --> 02:05:32,480
Speaker 15: continue and there's no objective reason to believe otherwise.

2219
02:05:33,720 --> 02:05:39,880
Speaker 14: Yeah, extremely alarming to say the least. But thank you

2220
02:05:39,920 --> 02:05:43,200
Speaker 14: Elia so much for making the time to explain this.

2221
02:05:43,560 --> 02:05:45,640
Speaker 14: I'll link to the fire these times in the show notes.

2222
02:05:45,680 --> 02:05:49,640
Speaker 14: Ilia has a excellent podcast and it's not Lebanon specific.

2223
02:05:49,920 --> 02:05:53,200
Speaker 14: It's kind of an internationalist perspective. For disclosure, I've been

2224
02:05:53,200 --> 02:05:58,440
Speaker 14: on it many times. I've produced some episodes, so yeah,

2225
02:05:58,480 --> 02:06:01,000
Speaker 14: there's not a bias. But it really is a good,

2226
02:06:01,200 --> 02:06:03,520
Speaker 14: very good podcast. In any case, Thank you so much, Ylia,

2227
02:06:03,720 --> 02:06:06,640
Speaker 14: and hopefully we'll have you on on better times.

2228
02:06:07,160 --> 02:06:08,520
Speaker 5: Thanks, thank thank thank you having me.

2229
02:06:24,920 --> 02:06:28,440
Speaker 4: Welcome to it could happen here podcasts where a bunch

2230
02:06:28,480 --> 02:06:32,240
Speaker 4: of incredibly convoluted and very silly financial instruments to shore

2231
02:06:32,320 --> 02:06:34,880
Speaker 4: the entire world economy. I am your host, Mia Wong,

2232
02:06:35,440 --> 02:06:38,520
Speaker 4: and with me today is someone who does not spend

2233
02:06:38,600 --> 02:06:42,040
Speaker 4: all of her time deep in the bowels of arcane

2234
02:06:42,680 --> 02:06:46,280
Speaker 4: bullshit written by different Federal Reserve boards. And that is

2235
02:06:46,360 --> 02:06:50,520
Speaker 4: Maldy Conger, who is the host of the absolutely delightful

2236
02:06:50,560 --> 02:06:53,440
Speaker 4: I mean, okay, I guess this is a who is

2237
02:06:53,520 --> 02:06:59,840
Speaker 4: really winning here kind of christion? In terms of things, research.

2238
02:06:59,720 --> 02:07:02,800
Speaker 16: Spent a lot of time reading stuff written by Federal

2239
02:07:02,880 --> 02:07:05,160
Speaker 16: Reserve guys. I read a lot of stuff written by

2240
02:07:05,240 --> 02:07:08,560
Speaker 16: guys who want to kill the Federal Reserve guys. Yeah,

2241
02:07:09,680 --> 02:07:11,640
Speaker 16: you know what, I still don't know what the Federal

2242
02:07:11,640 --> 02:07:13,240
Speaker 16: Reserve is, and I'm not gonna find out.

2243
02:07:14,360 --> 02:07:18,680
Speaker 4: You know, I don't actually think knowing what the Federal

2244
02:07:18,720 --> 02:07:20,320
Speaker 4: Reserve is somehow.

2245
02:07:19,960 --> 02:07:20,800
Speaker 16: It doesn't change anything.

2246
02:07:20,840 --> 02:07:23,280
Speaker 4: And I don't think it's actually relevant to this app

2247
02:07:23,320 --> 02:07:25,640
Speaker 4: I mean it kind of. It's obviously it's relevant to everything.

2248
02:07:25,640 --> 02:07:29,240
Speaker 16: But means to say is the reason I'm here is

2249
02:07:29,280 --> 02:07:31,280
Speaker 16: because I don't know what the economy is, and at

2250
02:07:31,320 --> 02:07:33,080
Speaker 16: this point I'm afraid to find out.

2251
02:07:33,680 --> 02:07:35,920
Speaker 4: And unfortunately, your worst fears are happening.

2252
02:07:36,200 --> 02:07:38,720
Speaker 16: Don't worry. By the end of this I will not understand.

2253
02:07:39,400 --> 02:07:43,120
Speaker 4: I am going to attempt to explain the economy, and

2254
02:07:43,160 --> 02:07:48,440
Speaker 4: by by the economy, I mean shadow banking. Yeah. Also,

2255
02:07:48,680 --> 02:07:50,360
Speaker 4: before before I go into this, though, you should, you

2256
02:07:50,360 --> 02:07:53,120
Speaker 4: should listen to Weird Little Guys. It is. It's it's

2257
02:07:53,160 --> 02:07:56,160
Speaker 4: really good. I like it. All my friends really like it.

2258
02:07:56,480 --> 02:08:02,560
Speaker 4: Thank you. Yeah, it's somehow a come a kind of

2259
02:08:02,640 --> 02:08:10,000
Speaker 4: relaxing show about neo Nazis. So that's got very chill vibes.

2260
02:08:10,080 --> 02:08:12,360
Speaker 16: Yeah for a show about guys who are trying to

2261
02:08:12,400 --> 02:08:13,600
Speaker 16: like blow up school bus ypes.

2262
02:08:13,920 --> 02:08:18,000
Speaker 4: Yep. So all right, you know I'm reading this. I'm

2263
02:08:18,000 --> 02:08:21,480
Speaker 4: looking over this script miraculously this isn't Oh wait, hold on,

2264
02:08:22,280 --> 02:08:23,960
Speaker 4: I think I cut the part where people blow up

2265
02:08:24,000 --> 02:08:26,800
Speaker 4: school buses. There was legitimately a segment in here that

2266
02:08:26,840 --> 02:08:29,280
Speaker 4: I might put back in or someone blows up a

2267
02:08:29,280 --> 02:08:29,840
Speaker 4: school bus.

2268
02:08:30,000 --> 02:08:32,240
Speaker 16: But what a crossover event.

2269
02:08:32,800 --> 02:08:35,720
Speaker 4: Oh boy, oh boy, the Saudi is really good at

2270
02:08:35,720 --> 02:08:40,200
Speaker 4: that shit. It turns out. Okay, okay, but let let's

2271
02:08:40,200 --> 02:08:42,720
Speaker 4: get back to the topic at hand, which is what

2272
02:08:42,880 --> 02:08:45,880
Speaker 4: is shadow banking and why does it matter to all

2273
02:08:45,920 --> 02:08:48,480
Speaker 4: of us people who live in the normal, real world

2274
02:08:48,560 --> 02:08:50,320
Speaker 4: and not in fake finance world.

2275
02:08:51,160 --> 02:08:53,000
Speaker 16: Does it have anything to do with shadow wolves?

2276
02:08:53,400 --> 02:08:59,879
Speaker 4: Unfortunately? No, what about shadow facts? Sadly? Actually they're probably

2277
02:09:00,120 --> 02:09:02,480
Speaker 4: is a connection between the financing for the Lord of

2278
02:09:02,480 --> 02:09:06,360
Speaker 4: the Rings movies and shadow banking. I'm just too tired

2279
02:09:06,680 --> 02:09:07,680
Speaker 4: to work it right now.

2280
02:09:08,240 --> 02:09:10,960
Speaker 16: I've dragged us off track. If we haven't even gotten

2281
02:09:11,000 --> 02:09:12,520
Speaker 16: on track yet. What is shadow bank?

2282
02:09:12,720 --> 02:09:15,120
Speaker 4: Okay? So the good news, the good news this this

2283
02:09:15,200 --> 02:09:17,520
Speaker 4: is this is the first. It's not the last piece

2284
02:09:17,520 --> 02:09:20,080
Speaker 4: of good news. We're gonna get this episode. But come,

2285
02:09:20,960 --> 02:09:24,760
Speaker 4: the definition used by most non academics is actually not

2286
02:09:25,320 --> 02:09:29,760
Speaker 4: that bad. There's a pretty good It's very wishy washy

2287
02:09:29,840 --> 02:09:32,640
Speaker 4: because it's a congressional report and so it's specifically not

2288
02:09:32,640 --> 02:09:34,960
Speaker 4: supposed to be taking a stance in either direction on

2289
02:09:35,040 --> 02:09:37,800
Speaker 4: anything because it's it's the Congressional Review Office, and they're

2290
02:09:37,800 --> 02:09:41,360
Speaker 4: supposed to be neutral, et cetera, et cetera. Allegedly, Yeah, right,

2291
02:09:41,440 --> 02:09:43,400
Speaker 4: you know, and like obviously they're not, but like you know,

2292
02:09:44,720 --> 02:09:48,520
Speaker 4: it's like kind of fine congressional report on the subject.

2293
02:09:49,000 --> 02:09:52,960
Speaker 4: And they do the thing that almost everyone does, which

2294
02:09:53,000 --> 02:09:56,680
Speaker 4: is they go back to the definition created by the

2295
02:09:56,680 --> 02:09:59,880
Speaker 4: Financial Stability Board. And I'm just gonna I'm just gonna

2296
02:10:00,080 --> 02:10:04,840
Speaker 4: quote that because it's not that bad. Quote financial activities

2297
02:10:04,880 --> 02:10:09,480
Speaker 4: facilitated by institutions other than central banks, banks or public

2298
02:10:09,520 --> 02:10:10,680
Speaker 4: financial institutions.

2299
02:10:11,720 --> 02:10:15,200
Speaker 16: So it's banking that doesn't involve a bank canceled. I'm out,

2300
02:10:15,320 --> 02:10:16,040
Speaker 16: I'm out already.

2301
02:10:16,320 --> 02:10:17,800
Speaker 4: Yes, And they.

2302
02:10:17,680 --> 02:10:19,520
Speaker 16: Don't mean like me loaning you twenty.

2303
02:10:19,280 --> 02:10:22,760
Speaker 4: Dollars No, no, no, of course not.

2304
02:10:23,160 --> 02:10:26,840
Speaker 16: They just mean unregulated banking. Oh yeah, which you can't

2305
02:10:26,920 --> 02:10:27,960
Speaker 16: legally call banking.

2306
02:10:28,640 --> 02:10:31,120
Speaker 4: I mean, you actually can't legally call it banking. It's

2307
02:10:31,240 --> 02:10:34,720
Speaker 4: just things get weird really quickly.

2308
02:10:34,800 --> 02:10:37,120
Speaker 16: I mean, I'm not a bank understander, but I know,

2309
02:10:37,120 --> 02:10:40,120
Speaker 16: at least in Virginia, you can't incorporate a business that

2310
02:10:40,200 --> 02:10:42,520
Speaker 16: has the word bank in the title unless you are

2311
02:10:42,600 --> 02:10:45,360
Speaker 16: legally a bank, because that's like misleading.

2312
02:10:45,520 --> 02:10:47,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't think they can legally call themselves a bank,

2313
02:10:47,720 --> 02:10:50,200
Speaker 4: but I guess you can call it banking activity that's

2314
02:10:50,240 --> 02:10:51,400
Speaker 4: stupid in a matter already.

2315
02:10:51,720 --> 02:10:52,040
Speaker 5: Yes.

2316
02:10:52,320 --> 02:10:54,080
Speaker 4: Oh, you're going to get so much more mad by

2317
02:10:54,080 --> 02:10:57,480
Speaker 4: the end of this. So the base definition is it's

2318
02:10:57,520 --> 02:11:00,360
Speaker 4: not that complicated, right, It's something that does banking stuff

2319
02:11:00,360 --> 02:11:03,480
Speaker 4: that is legally not a bank, you know, And so

2320
02:11:03,600 --> 02:11:07,440
Speaker 4: we could talk about what what kinds of things is this? Right,

2321
02:11:08,000 --> 02:11:11,600
Speaker 4: It's like private equity firms, it's hedge funds, it's venture

2322
02:11:11,640 --> 02:11:12,720
Speaker 4: capital firms.

2323
02:11:13,240 --> 02:11:15,800
Speaker 16: So it's like evil stuff that ruins the world for

2324
02:11:15,840 --> 02:11:18,160
Speaker 16: no reason except for like ten guys make money.

2325
02:11:18,720 --> 02:11:21,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, but it's also you know, pension funds, it's like

2326
02:11:21,160 --> 02:11:25,520
Speaker 4: insurance companies. It's sovereign wealth funds, business development companies, repo markets,

2327
02:11:25,560 --> 02:11:30,400
Speaker 4: broker dealers, special investment vehicles, securitization vehicles, money market mutual funds,

2328
02:11:30,440 --> 02:11:32,600
Speaker 4: assey backed commercial paper conduits.

2329
02:11:33,000 --> 02:11:36,160
Speaker 16: Hey thing, Bud, Most of those things you just said

2330
02:11:36,200 --> 02:11:38,320
Speaker 16: to me are fake and they make me upset.

2331
02:11:38,880 --> 02:11:42,840
Speaker 4: It's really bad. Sovereign wealth funds shop that's not that's

2332
02:11:42,880 --> 02:11:43,160
Speaker 4: not me.

2333
02:11:44,960 --> 02:11:47,360
Speaker 16: I still, you know all these all these things are

2334
02:11:47,400 --> 02:11:50,400
Speaker 16: just like different ways of saying like you're poor and

2335
02:11:50,440 --> 02:11:51,200
Speaker 16: you're gonna die.

2336
02:11:51,360 --> 02:11:52,960
Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean the funny thing is sovereign wealth fund

2337
02:11:53,080 --> 02:11:56,000
Speaker 4: is like kind of a less fake one in that

2338
02:11:56,080 --> 02:11:59,240
Speaker 4: it's like, hey, this is like sol fake. It's the well,

2339
02:11:59,280 --> 02:12:01,520
Speaker 4: It's like this is the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has

2340
02:12:01,600 --> 02:12:03,760
Speaker 4: pooled all of the money it's gotten from its like

2341
02:12:04,000 --> 02:12:07,320
Speaker 4: horrific crimes and put them together into one giant thing,

2342
02:12:07,360 --> 02:12:08,640
Speaker 4: and that's a sovereign wealth fund.

2343
02:12:09,120 --> 02:12:10,600
Speaker 16: Oh so it's good, it's what you mean.

2344
02:12:12,640 --> 02:12:15,360
Speaker 4: No, I am a notable. There is, by the way,

2345
02:12:15,400 --> 02:12:17,560
Speaker 4: a camp of people who believe that sovereign wealth funds

2346
02:12:17,560 --> 02:12:19,840
Speaker 4: are like a socialist thing and that you could use

2347
02:12:19,840 --> 02:12:20,800
Speaker 4: them to do socialism.

2348
02:12:20,840 --> 02:12:22,000
Speaker 16: I'm gonna jump out the window.

2349
02:12:22,080 --> 02:12:25,680
Speaker 4: I think this is so stupid. Yeah, we haven't even

2350
02:12:25,720 --> 02:12:29,200
Speaker 4: gotten into the nightmare stuff. So remember I was talking

2351
02:12:29,200 --> 02:12:33,480
Speaker 4: about the Financial Stability Board definition in that congressional report

2352
02:12:33,600 --> 02:12:35,320
Speaker 4: right where it's like, okay, this is a bank that

2353
02:12:35,360 --> 02:12:37,320
Speaker 4: does non banking stuff or a non bank that does

2354
02:12:37,360 --> 02:12:38,480
Speaker 4: banking stuff. Sorry, oh, I.

2355
02:12:38,400 --> 02:12:40,440
Speaker 16: Guess we should say I guess we forgot to say

2356
02:12:40,440 --> 02:12:43,040
Speaker 16: at the top. The reason you're explaining shadow banking to

2357
02:12:43,120 --> 02:12:45,760
Speaker 16: me is because we saw an article last week that

2358
02:12:46,520 --> 02:12:49,680
Speaker 16: what those not banks were putting a stop on withdrawals

2359
02:12:49,680 --> 02:12:52,840
Speaker 16: from their not banks and I didn't know what that meant.

2360
02:12:53,120 --> 02:12:57,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's amazingly, this is so convoluted. We're not even

2361
02:12:57,600 --> 02:12:59,160
Speaker 4: gonna get to that this week, right, But like that

2362
02:13:00,240 --> 02:13:02,920
Speaker 4: why we're exciting, That's why, right, there's like, yeah, there's

2363
02:13:02,920 --> 02:13:04,960
Speaker 4: like there's like a mini bank run going on with

2364
02:13:05,040 --> 02:13:08,840
Speaker 4: these like shadow banks, no banks. Yeah, so we're gonna

2365
02:13:08,840 --> 02:13:11,600
Speaker 4: get into how that can happen and why. But but

2366
02:13:11,640 --> 02:13:14,360
Speaker 4: before we get there, we need to talk about all, right,

2367
02:13:14,400 --> 02:13:16,640
Speaker 4: to get a sense of the complexity of this. Right,

2368
02:13:17,040 --> 02:13:20,880
Speaker 4: the Congressional report, like the accepted terminology for this is

2369
02:13:20,920 --> 02:13:22,160
Speaker 4: not shadow banks, it.

2370
02:13:22,120 --> 02:13:24,200
Speaker 16: Is, right, that can't be their official name. That's not

2371
02:13:24,240 --> 02:13:25,040
Speaker 16: their government name.

2372
02:13:25,680 --> 02:13:30,720
Speaker 4: No, it's it's non bank financial intermediation. Now what the

2373
02:13:30,800 --> 02:13:32,760
Speaker 4: fuck is that? And this is where this episode goes

2374
02:13:32,800 --> 02:13:36,160
Speaker 4: completely off the rails because the components of what count

2375
02:13:36,200 --> 02:13:39,720
Speaker 4: as intermediation are so complicated. I Am not going to

2376
02:13:39,760 --> 02:13:42,320
Speaker 4: try to describe it until literally the end of this I.

2377
02:13:42,320 --> 02:13:44,560
Speaker 16: Mean, is it like what is Venmo officially?

2378
02:13:44,720 --> 02:13:44,960
Speaker 4: Really?

2379
02:13:45,040 --> 02:13:48,480
Speaker 16: Venmo's not a bank, but it provides like financial services.

2380
02:13:49,040 --> 02:13:51,600
Speaker 4: Actually, I why.

2381
02:13:51,560 --> 02:13:53,600
Speaker 16: Because it's because it's like a financial intermediary.

2382
02:13:53,680 --> 02:13:57,000
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, it might technically be a non bank. I

2383
02:13:57,320 --> 02:14:01,160
Speaker 4: don't know what the regulatory structure is legally about. Yeah,

2384
02:14:01,160 --> 02:14:03,120
Speaker 4: I think I think that technically is.

2385
02:14:03,120 --> 02:14:04,720
Speaker 16: One score one for MOLI.

2386
02:14:05,440 --> 02:14:08,680
Speaker 4: Yeah. But okay, so this is this is gonna get

2387
02:14:08,720 --> 02:14:13,200
Speaker 4: really bad. Okay. So when I first started researching this episode, right,

2388
02:14:13,240 --> 02:14:16,880
Speaker 4: the first thing that I click on is is the

2389
02:14:16,880 --> 02:14:20,720
Speaker 4: Federal Reserves chart of how the shadow banking sector works

2390
02:14:20,720 --> 02:14:23,000
Speaker 4: compared to the normal banking sector. Molly, you have seen

2391
02:14:23,040 --> 02:14:25,680
Speaker 4: this because I posted it as a joke in our

2392
02:14:25,680 --> 02:14:31,040
Speaker 4: group chat. This chart. I have like a very very large,

2393
02:14:31,240 --> 02:14:33,919
Speaker 4: like it is like a big, normal ass size monitor

2394
02:14:34,080 --> 02:14:36,440
Speaker 4: that I like to do my work on. I had

2395
02:14:36,440 --> 02:14:39,720
Speaker 4: to zoom in to three hundred and eighty percent just

2396
02:14:39,800 --> 02:14:43,360
Speaker 4: to make out the letters that label the boxes on

2397
02:14:43,400 --> 02:14:45,760
Speaker 4: this chart. If you want to read it, you have

2398
02:14:45,800 --> 02:14:48,200
Speaker 4: to zoom into five hundred percent.

2399
02:14:48,680 --> 02:14:50,200
Speaker 16: That doesn't seem like a well made chart.

2400
02:14:51,040 --> 02:14:53,480
Speaker 4: No, here's the thing. It's actually really good. It's just

2401
02:14:53,560 --> 02:14:58,240
Speaker 4: this complicated. I learned later from a paper by Copenhagen

2402
02:14:58,240 --> 02:15:02,480
Speaker 4: Business School professor Odny Helga Daughter. We're gonna come back

2403
02:15:02,520 --> 02:15:05,840
Speaker 4: to Hellga Daughter's work a lot in this episode, but

2404
02:15:06,240 --> 02:15:09,320
Speaker 4: I learned from from her because she has also experienced

2405
02:15:09,320 --> 02:15:12,200
Speaker 4: seeing this same chart and going what the is this

2406
02:15:12,240 --> 02:15:15,440
Speaker 4: fuck ass chart? I found out that the Federal Reserve

2407
02:15:15,560 --> 02:15:19,000
Speaker 4: recommends that in order to have the diagram be legible,

2408
02:15:19,440 --> 02:15:23,280
Speaker 4: you're supposed to print this chart as a three foot

2409
02:15:23,280 --> 02:15:24,839
Speaker 4: by four foot poster.

2410
02:15:25,400 --> 02:15:29,400
Speaker 16: Oh that makes sense, like meeting style, but like we're

2411
02:15:29,440 --> 02:15:29,960
Speaker 16: on easel.

2412
02:15:30,200 --> 02:15:32,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, But like again, this is this is a

2413
02:15:32,680 --> 02:15:36,520
Speaker 4: diagram that he's just labeling the parts of the system

2414
02:15:36,880 --> 02:15:39,560
Speaker 4: and making and making like a line that shows how

2415
02:15:39,600 --> 02:15:40,680
Speaker 4: stuff moves through it.

2416
02:15:40,920 --> 02:15:43,520
Speaker 16: I guess I still don't know what we're talking about.

2417
02:15:45,320 --> 02:15:47,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, so this is what we're going to get into

2418
02:15:47,440 --> 02:15:49,800
Speaker 4: in a second. But first we have to talk about

2419
02:15:49,840 --> 02:15:51,840
Speaker 4: something even more bleak, which is that.

2420
02:15:51,920 --> 02:15:52,040
Speaker 2: Oh.

2421
02:15:52,120 --> 02:15:54,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, by the way, these like non banking bank things

2422
02:15:54,840 --> 02:15:56,800
Speaker 4: like these like all these like venture capital firms, all

2423
02:15:56,800 --> 02:16:01,360
Speaker 4: these hedge funds, all these fucking weird, ghoulish banks that

2424
02:16:01,440 --> 02:16:04,760
Speaker 4: are off banks. Yeah, they have twice as many assets

2425
02:16:05,000 --> 02:16:08,920
Speaker 4: than the regular banking system. Oh that doesn't seem good. Oh,

2426
02:16:08,920 --> 02:16:11,640
Speaker 4: it's about to get worse. It's about to get worse. Molley'.

2427
02:16:11,800 --> 02:16:14,400
Speaker 16: That's like saying I keep seventy percent of the food

2428
02:16:14,400 --> 02:16:16,920
Speaker 16: in my house outside on the porch, like it goes

2429
02:16:16,960 --> 02:16:17,600
Speaker 16: in the fridge.

2430
02:16:17,640 --> 02:16:21,920
Speaker 4: Oh, oh, it's so bad, it's so bad. So okay,

2431
02:16:22,240 --> 02:16:24,040
Speaker 4: there's a pretty good congressional report that I was talking

2432
02:16:24,080 --> 02:16:28,400
Speaker 4: about earlier that has this terrifying quote quote. As of

2433
02:16:28,440 --> 02:16:32,600
Speaker 4: twenty twenty three, the broad measured total financial assets and

2434
02:16:32,720 --> 02:16:37,640
Speaker 4: narrow measure assets at NBFISIS is the shadow banks reached

2435
02:16:38,040 --> 02:16:43,000
Speaker 4: eighty five point seven trillion dollars and twenty two point

2436
02:16:43,040 --> 02:16:46,359
Speaker 4: two trillion dollars, respectively in the United States.

2437
02:16:46,520 --> 02:16:48,360
Speaker 16: But that's more than our GDP.

2438
02:16:48,920 --> 02:16:51,440
Speaker 4: That's almost three times our GDP.

2439
02:16:51,680 --> 02:16:55,119
Speaker 16: So that's a fake amount of money. Yes, that's not real.

2440
02:16:55,000 --> 02:16:58,840
Speaker 4: At all, but it kind of is. Right. These compared

2441
02:16:58,920 --> 02:17:02,160
Speaker 4: to total financial assets of thirty one point one trillion

2442
02:17:02,200 --> 02:17:06,080
Speaker 4: dollars at banks in the same period. So again this

2443
02:17:06,160 --> 02:17:09,080
Speaker 4: is this is almost three times our GDP in assets

2444
02:17:09,080 --> 02:17:13,240
Speaker 4: that they manage or control. So where does the money live?

2445
02:17:13,879 --> 02:17:21,000
Speaker 4: In a whole bunch of unbelievably convoluted bullshit like combinations

2446
02:17:21,040 --> 02:17:23,680
Speaker 4: of like loans and real estate and stuff like that,

2447
02:17:24,080 --> 02:17:25,000
Speaker 4: not real money.

2448
02:17:25,000 --> 02:17:27,920
Speaker 16: So like, okay, imagine this is schoolhouse rock and instead

2449
02:17:27,920 --> 02:17:30,760
Speaker 16: of the singing bill, you're like a dollar bill, Like

2450
02:17:30,920 --> 02:17:31,600
Speaker 16: where are you?

2451
02:17:33,080 --> 02:17:38,320
Speaker 4: We are about to explain this where does the money live? Yeah?

2452
02:17:38,360 --> 02:17:42,119
Speaker 4: So okay, okay, we're we are about one huge paragraphs

2453
02:17:42,120 --> 02:17:45,720
Speaker 4: away from getting to this, or like one paragraph. Okay.

2454
02:17:45,800 --> 02:17:47,920
Speaker 4: So the other thing that's very important about this, and

2455
02:17:47,959 --> 02:17:49,560
Speaker 4: this is something Molly was kind of touching out to

2456
02:17:49,560 --> 02:17:50,880
Speaker 4: the beginning to get the appen So maybe I should

2457
02:17:50,879 --> 02:17:53,360
Speaker 4: have opened with this. Yeah, these people, these are the

2458
02:17:53,360 --> 02:17:55,560
Speaker 4: people who blew up the economy in two thousand and eight.

2459
02:17:56,080 --> 02:17:58,119
Speaker 16: Well, yeah, because they're making stuff up.

2460
02:17:58,360 --> 02:18:01,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's so, it's so bullshit, Molly, you're gonna get

2461
02:18:01,480 --> 02:18:04,680
Speaker 4: so mad if this is Calvin Ball, fuck you I win. Yeah,

2462
02:18:04,720 --> 02:18:09,119
Speaker 4: it literally is. It's nonsense. It's gibberish. They're doing fucking

2463
02:18:09,200 --> 02:18:12,039
Speaker 4: betting markets with the entire world economy. Oh yeah, we

2464
02:18:12,040 --> 02:18:14,959
Speaker 4: can all do that now. Yeah, it's fun. It's like

2465
02:18:15,000 --> 02:18:17,360
Speaker 4: we we now have the power to do the shit

2466
02:18:17,480 --> 02:18:19,840
Speaker 4: that destroyed the entire world economy in two thousand and eight.

2467
02:18:20,360 --> 02:18:22,200
Speaker 4: So that The thing about shadow banking, and the reason

2468
02:18:22,200 --> 02:18:25,760
Speaker 4: why it's complicated to explain, is that it's a catch

2469
02:18:25,800 --> 02:18:29,240
Speaker 4: all term for like a million types of institutions that

2470
02:18:29,280 --> 02:18:33,080
Speaker 4: do different things, Right, the commonality they have is that

2471
02:18:33,120 --> 02:18:36,800
Speaker 4: they're all not regulated by the banking regulations.

2472
02:18:37,160 --> 02:18:37,240
Speaker 5: Right.

2473
02:18:37,280 --> 02:18:39,119
Speaker 16: It's like, we found a way to do financial crime

2474
02:18:39,120 --> 02:18:41,560
Speaker 16: that's not illegal because they forgot to make this illegal.

2475
02:18:41,840 --> 02:18:44,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, but but the thing is it's

2476
02:18:44,560 --> 02:18:48,760
Speaker 4: so embedded into the system that, like the US debt

2477
02:18:49,240 --> 02:18:54,480
Speaker 4: working is dependent on the shadow banks buying it. Like

2478
02:18:54,640 --> 02:18:56,600
Speaker 4: I don't believe in that either. So I'm good. Oh

2479
02:18:56,680 --> 02:18:59,200
Speaker 4: it's so fake, Molly. I'm not even gonna attempt to

2480
02:18:59,280 --> 02:19:01,880
Speaker 4: explain what an o night repo purchases to you, because

2481
02:19:02,360 --> 02:19:05,080
Speaker 4: it's the fakest thing I've ever seen, where they they

2482
02:19:05,080 --> 02:19:07,560
Speaker 4: make one trillion dollars exist overnight and then it stops

2483
02:19:07,600 --> 02:19:09,560
Speaker 4: existing at the end of the night. It's incredible.

2484
02:19:10,040 --> 02:19:11,920
Speaker 16: I love how much of the economy is based on

2485
02:19:11,959 --> 02:19:14,520
Speaker 16: guys just imagining stuff and agreeing on the thing they

2486
02:19:14,600 --> 02:19:17,320
Speaker 16: imagined and then trading their imaginary tokens like this is

2487
02:19:17,320 --> 02:19:18,120
Speaker 16: fucking POGs.

2488
02:19:18,160 --> 02:19:21,480
Speaker 4: Grow up, yep, this is this is this is unfortunately,

2489
02:19:21,959 --> 02:19:24,440
Speaker 4: what our entire world is based on. It's so fun.

2490
02:19:25,720 --> 02:19:30,119
Speaker 4: Oh god, Okay, So what is actually shadow banking? I've

2491
02:19:30,120 --> 02:19:33,000
Speaker 4: given you like the broadest definition possible, which is like

2492
02:19:33,240 --> 02:19:35,560
Speaker 4: it again, it's the it's doing bank ship without being

2493
02:19:35,560 --> 02:19:38,480
Speaker 4: a bank. But let's go back to the beginning of

2494
02:19:38,600 --> 02:19:42,600
Speaker 4: the term, which is where most people tend to start

2495
02:19:42,720 --> 02:19:46,119
Speaker 4: or get to eventually. This is from an IMF paper quote.

2496
02:19:46,400 --> 02:19:49,840
Speaker 4: The term shadow bank was coined by economist Paul McCauley

2497
02:19:49,840 --> 02:19:52,440
Speaker 4: at a two thousand and seven speech at the Annual

2498
02:19:52,480 --> 02:19:56,000
Speaker 4: Financial Symposium hosted by the Kansas City Federal Reserve Bank

2499
02:19:56,000 --> 02:20:02,440
Speaker 4: in jacksonvill Wyoming. And basically it's institutions that borrow money

2500
02:20:02,480 --> 02:20:05,560
Speaker 4: in the short term through money markets to finance long

2501
02:20:05,640 --> 02:20:09,280
Speaker 4: term loans. But they aren't banks, so they can't go

2502
02:20:09,360 --> 02:20:13,000
Speaker 4: through the FED. They're financing loans with other loans. Yeah,

2503
02:20:13,000 --> 02:20:16,120
Speaker 4: we're gonna so from a not bank. Yeah, but the

2504
02:20:16,160 --> 02:20:17,920
Speaker 4: big loan is from a real bank, and then the

2505
02:20:17,959 --> 02:20:20,640
Speaker 4: little loan is from a fake bank. Give me, none

2506
02:20:20,680 --> 02:20:22,680
Speaker 4: of the money is real. Hold on, hold on, Okay,

2507
02:20:22,720 --> 02:20:25,840
Speaker 4: we're going to get there. We're going to explain this

2508
02:20:25,879 --> 02:20:28,120
Speaker 4: in terms of burgers. It's going to be Okay, I

2509
02:20:28,200 --> 02:20:30,440
Speaker 4: believe in us perfect, perfect, Yes. But the other thing

2510
02:20:30,520 --> 02:20:33,920
Speaker 4: he describes is, and this is from Helga daughter quote

2511
02:20:34,080 --> 02:20:36,720
Speaker 4: in the speech, she describes shadow banking as the whole

2512
02:20:36,800 --> 02:20:41,720
Speaker 4: alphabet soup of leveraged up investment conduits, vehicles, and structures.

2513
02:20:41,879 --> 02:20:44,880
Speaker 4: So what he's talking about specifically is these are the

2514
02:20:44,920 --> 02:20:46,680
Speaker 4: guys who blew up the economy two does eight like

2515
02:20:46,720 --> 02:20:49,400
Speaker 4: these specifically, this is what he's talking about, right, These

2516
02:20:49,400 --> 02:20:52,160
Speaker 4: are the people who took a mortgage and then did

2517
02:20:52,200 --> 02:20:54,120
Speaker 4: a bunch of bullshit to it and what's called a

2518
02:20:54,120 --> 02:20:57,280
Speaker 4: securitization chain. They did a bunch of bullshit to it,

2519
02:20:57,320 --> 02:20:59,320
Speaker 4: so you could give the loan to someone else, you

2520
02:20:59,320 --> 02:21:01,600
Speaker 4: could sell someone else, and this blew up the entire

2521
02:21:01,640 --> 02:21:03,720
Speaker 4: world economy. That's what she's talking about. He's talking about

2522
02:21:03,720 --> 02:21:06,760
Speaker 4: the banks that are not banks, the shadow banks that

2523
02:21:06,879 --> 02:21:10,680
Speaker 4: did all of this bullshit to turn like someone's mortgage

2524
02:21:10,720 --> 02:21:12,920
Speaker 4: into a fucking thing you could bet on.

2525
02:21:13,480 --> 02:21:19,400
Speaker 16: So selling debt is like selling the idea of future money. Yeah,

2526
02:21:19,440 --> 02:21:22,200
Speaker 16: and then sometimes that future money doesn't come. Yeah, so

2527
02:21:22,240 --> 02:21:23,120
Speaker 16: it doesn't exist.

2528
02:21:23,400 --> 02:21:26,000
Speaker 4: So so okay, I will say, you do not need

2529
02:21:26,040 --> 02:21:28,200
Speaker 4: to understand this yet, because we haven't. We still have

2530
02:21:28,240 --> 02:21:29,359
Speaker 4: not already the actual explanation.

2531
02:21:29,480 --> 02:21:30,320
Speaker 16: I'm never going to.

2532
02:21:30,680 --> 02:21:32,959
Speaker 4: I believe in us. We can do this. It's not

2533
02:21:33,080 --> 02:21:36,360
Speaker 4: that bad, okay. I'm not torturing your on purpose. I'm

2534
02:21:36,400 --> 02:21:40,560
Speaker 4: just no, it's okay, I believe in you. So I

2535
02:21:40,879 --> 02:21:43,400
Speaker 4: want to mention that I'm very indebted here to the

2536
02:21:43,440 --> 02:21:47,400
Speaker 4: paper I mentioned earlier from Copenhagen Business School professor Adny

2537
02:21:47,879 --> 02:21:50,600
Speaker 4: Helga Daughter, who wrote of She wrote a very good

2538
02:21:50,879 --> 02:21:53,879
Speaker 4: fight explanation of this in her Review of International Political

2539
02:21:53,920 --> 02:21:57,560
Speaker 4: Economy article called Banking upside Down The Implicit Politics of

2540
02:21:57,560 --> 02:22:01,720
Speaker 4: Shadow Banking expertise, but Okay, as you can tell by

2541
02:22:01,720 --> 02:22:05,720
Speaker 4: the fact that it's called banking upside down, the implicit

2542
02:22:05,760 --> 02:22:08,879
Speaker 4: politics of shadow banking expertise this has been when she's

2543
02:22:08,879 --> 02:22:12,920
Speaker 4: simplifying it. She's simplifying it from like economists down to

2544
02:22:13,120 --> 02:22:16,400
Speaker 4: like a political scientist or an anthropologist can understand this.

2545
02:22:17,080 --> 02:22:19,879
Speaker 4: I am about to attempt to simplify this down to

2546
02:22:20,840 --> 02:22:24,440
Speaker 4: a regular person. Can I understand this? So I'm drawing

2547
02:22:24,440 --> 02:22:26,560
Speaker 4: on a lot of her stuff for the first part

2548
02:22:26,560 --> 02:22:30,760
Speaker 4: of this explanation, but I am I've turned it into burgers.

2549
02:22:31,040 --> 02:22:33,720
Speaker 16: So I'll do my best. I'm being very brave.

2550
02:22:34,080 --> 02:22:34,320
Speaker 5: Okay.

2551
02:22:34,360 --> 02:22:37,400
Speaker 4: So a shadow bank, right, it's something that does banking shit.

2552
02:22:37,520 --> 02:22:39,000
Speaker 4: That's not a bank. So what do I mean by

2553
02:22:39,120 --> 02:22:39,760
Speaker 4: banking shit?

2554
02:22:40,440 --> 02:22:42,720
Speaker 16: That was my next question. Yes, I think we need

2555
02:22:42,760 --> 02:22:44,360
Speaker 16: to start with what is a bank?

2556
02:22:44,440 --> 02:22:46,640
Speaker 4: Yes? So first, so okay, okay, and this is this

2557
02:22:46,720 --> 02:22:50,080
Speaker 4: is where we're starting here. What does a bank do?

2558
02:22:50,720 --> 02:22:52,760
Speaker 16: I put my money in it and they hold it

2559
02:22:52,760 --> 02:22:53,000
Speaker 16: for me?

2560
02:22:53,280 --> 02:22:56,080
Speaker 4: So no, actually, and this is the interesting part.

2561
02:22:56,200 --> 02:22:59,000
Speaker 16: No, they do stuff with it. Oh yeah, they're holding

2562
02:22:59,040 --> 02:23:00,440
Speaker 16: onto the promise of my money.

2563
02:23:01,000 --> 02:23:01,560
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2564
02:23:01,600 --> 02:23:03,320
Speaker 4: So okay, let's let's just let's just look at this

2565
02:23:03,360 --> 02:23:06,080
Speaker 4: for a second. So Okay, So regular people give them

2566
02:23:06,080 --> 02:23:08,560
Speaker 4: money to store in the bank. This is called a deposit.

2567
02:23:09,280 --> 02:23:12,680
Speaker 4: The bank takes your money and loans it out right

2568
02:23:12,760 --> 02:23:16,160
Speaker 4: and uses that to make more money. This is how

2569
02:23:16,160 --> 02:23:18,680
Speaker 4: it pays you interest, right, is that it's it's taking

2570
02:23:18,760 --> 02:23:20,560
Speaker 4: your money and it's loaning it out to other to

2571
02:23:20,720 --> 02:23:23,000
Speaker 4: other people, it's buying things with it.

2572
02:23:23,160 --> 02:23:24,160
Speaker 16: That part I understand.

2573
02:23:24,280 --> 02:23:26,959
Speaker 4: Yeah, And this is obviously a cartoon image. And I

2574
02:23:27,000 --> 02:23:28,640
Speaker 4: know there's gonna be econ people who are gonna be

2575
02:23:28,680 --> 02:23:32,000
Speaker 4: mad at me. Look you, if you understand, why are.

2576
02:23:31,959 --> 02:23:34,000
Speaker 16: They listening to this? If you already know what this means,

2577
02:23:34,000 --> 02:23:38,680
Speaker 16: go away. This isn't for you. I'm not humiliating myself

2578
02:23:38,680 --> 02:23:40,200
Speaker 16: for your entertainment, like like for.

2579
02:23:40,200 --> 02:23:42,760
Speaker 4: The political economy people here. When I say stuff that

2580
02:23:42,840 --> 02:23:46,920
Speaker 4: might that's like technically kind of fuzzy. It's for me

2581
02:23:47,080 --> 02:23:50,320
Speaker 4: the podcast idiot. Yeah, like you you understand this, Like

2582
02:23:50,360 --> 02:23:52,320
Speaker 4: I work at the level of Hamburgers here, so like

2583
02:23:52,680 --> 02:23:56,600
Speaker 4: we have to do some abstractions. So okay, the important

2584
02:23:56,640 --> 02:23:59,760
Speaker 4: thing for our purposes, right, is that there's two things here. Right,

2585
02:23:59,800 --> 02:24:02,600
Speaker 4: There's like the deposit to the money you give them,

2586
02:24:02,680 --> 02:24:05,600
Speaker 4: and then there's the loans, right, and these operates on

2587
02:24:05,720 --> 02:24:09,160
Speaker 4: different timelines. Right. You can take the deposit out at

2588
02:24:09,200 --> 02:24:12,320
Speaker 4: any time, least in theory, but they can't get the

2589
02:24:12,360 --> 02:24:15,880
Speaker 4: money from the loan back at any time right now.

2590
02:24:16,120 --> 02:24:18,840
Speaker 4: This is like one of the critical things of what

2591
02:24:18,879 --> 02:24:23,120
Speaker 4: a bank is is this timeline thing. Right. It turns

2592
02:24:24,160 --> 02:24:26,560
Speaker 4: your money, which you can take out at any time,

2593
02:24:26,840 --> 02:24:30,440
Speaker 4: into a different kind of thing, this loan, which can't

2594
02:24:30,520 --> 02:24:33,400
Speaker 4: be taken out immediately, right, and then they use that

2595
02:24:33,480 --> 02:24:38,959
Speaker 4: to make money. So this is called maturity transformation. This

2596
02:24:39,040 --> 02:24:41,840
Speaker 4: is a very simple concept they have made very complicated.

2597
02:24:42,320 --> 02:24:44,520
Speaker 4: This is one of the core aspects of that definition

2598
02:24:44,520 --> 02:24:45,760
Speaker 4: I was talking about earlier. This is one of the

2599
02:24:45,800 --> 02:24:48,720
Speaker 4: four things in it. But you now understand this. It's

2600
02:24:48,720 --> 02:24:51,840
Speaker 4: not that complicated. It's takes short term, make long term,

2601
02:24:52,280 --> 02:24:54,600
Speaker 4: and we'll get to doing the reverse in a second.

2602
02:24:54,879 --> 02:24:57,680
Speaker 16: Oh, I don't think it works the other way.

2603
02:24:58,200 --> 02:25:00,879
Speaker 4: It's gonna go so badly, really so badly.

2604
02:25:00,920 --> 02:25:03,320
Speaker 16: I don't know about bank, but just generally speaking, like

2605
02:25:03,360 --> 02:25:06,520
Speaker 16: in terms of time and like how like material reality works.

2606
02:25:06,560 --> 02:25:08,000
Speaker 16: I don't think it works the other way.

2607
02:25:08,400 --> 02:25:11,959
Speaker 4: It's it's not great. It's not great, Molly, it's not great. Okay,

2608
02:25:12,000 --> 02:25:15,480
Speaker 4: So okay, there is However, a problem here, right, which

2609
02:25:15,520 --> 02:25:18,400
Speaker 4: is what happens if everyone tries to get their short

2610
02:25:18,520 --> 02:25:20,039
Speaker 4: term money back at the same time.

2611
02:25:20,480 --> 02:25:23,680
Speaker 16: I only can't, yeah, right, because you have deposit insurance.

2612
02:25:23,920 --> 02:25:27,959
Speaker 4: Yeah right, because the banks aren't holding short term cash.

2613
02:25:28,000 --> 02:25:31,160
Speaker 4: What they're holding is long term loans. And those loans

2614
02:25:31,680 --> 02:25:36,440
Speaker 4: like you can't pay someone alone. Well okay, actually, this

2615
02:25:36,640 --> 02:25:38,480
Speaker 4: entire the crux of this episode is they faced that

2616
02:25:38,520 --> 02:25:41,039
Speaker 4: they did do that. Yeah, yes, and it blew up

2617
02:25:41,040 --> 02:25:41,880
Speaker 4: the entire world to columy.

2618
02:25:41,920 --> 02:25:44,480
Speaker 16: But if but if I wanted forty thousand dollars out

2619
02:25:44,480 --> 02:25:45,960
Speaker 16: of my if I had a checking out it was

2620
02:25:46,000 --> 02:25:47,840
Speaker 16: forty thousand dollars in it. Yeah, and they gave me

2621
02:25:47,959 --> 02:25:50,080
Speaker 16: my neighbor's mortgage as a prompt Like that.

2622
02:25:50,080 --> 02:25:51,440
Speaker 4: Would have worked for me, That would have worked for

2623
02:25:51,879 --> 02:25:54,360
Speaker 4: no fuck that, No no, no, no. You need you need,

2624
02:25:54,440 --> 02:25:56,600
Speaker 4: you need, you need something that can buy a burger,

2625
02:25:56,840 --> 02:26:00,880
Speaker 4: and they're not giving you that. So okay, this is

2626
02:26:01,200 --> 02:26:03,120
Speaker 4: very very bad. If people try to do this, it

2627
02:26:03,200 --> 02:26:06,360
Speaker 4: is called a bank run. It is not good. It's bad. Yeah,

2628
02:26:06,400 --> 02:26:09,480
Speaker 4: And so this this blew up the entire world economy

2629
02:26:09,640 --> 02:26:13,879
Speaker 4: so many goddamn times that eventually we got financial regulation

2630
02:26:14,640 --> 02:26:18,480
Speaker 4: now this. This regulation requires banks to have money that

2631
02:26:18,600 --> 02:26:22,440
Speaker 4: is like actual cash they can hand you like right now,

2632
02:26:22,879 --> 02:26:25,480
Speaker 4: on hand at all times, and the government gets to

2633
02:26:25,760 --> 02:26:27,960
Speaker 4: and this is that's a little bit simification, but like yeah,

2634
02:26:28,000 --> 02:26:28,600
Speaker 4: that's how.

2635
02:26:28,520 --> 02:26:30,640
Speaker 16: It works, right, Like, and it's insured by the government.

2636
02:26:31,000 --> 02:26:32,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the government will give you your money back

2637
02:26:32,840 --> 02:26:34,680
Speaker 4: if if the bank goes under up to like a

2638
02:26:34,720 --> 02:26:39,240
Speaker 4: certain amount of dollars ensured. Yep, this is this this

2639
02:26:39,360 --> 02:26:41,240
Speaker 4: that's that's what that means, right, the government will give

2640
02:26:41,280 --> 02:26:44,560
Speaker 4: you your money back. But also there's a there's a

2641
02:26:44,640 --> 02:26:47,040
Speaker 4: trade off to this. So this is a massive benefit

2642
02:26:47,080 --> 02:26:48,680
Speaker 4: for the banks, right the fact the fact that if

2643
02:26:48,720 --> 02:26:50,680
Speaker 4: they go under, all of their assets will be repaid

2644
02:26:50,680 --> 02:26:53,160
Speaker 4: by the government. It's a it's a massive benefit for

2645
02:26:53,200 --> 02:26:55,240
Speaker 4: them because it means that putting your money in the

2646
02:26:55,280 --> 02:26:56,000
Speaker 4: bank is like safe.

2647
02:26:56,080 --> 02:26:58,320
Speaker 16: Yeah, I love that for me, right, Yeah.

2648
02:26:58,080 --> 02:27:01,400
Speaker 4: It's good. Now. The cost to the banks is that

2649
02:27:01,480 --> 02:27:03,600
Speaker 4: the Feds get to see their balance sheet, right, the

2650
02:27:03,640 --> 02:27:05,680
Speaker 4: Feds get to see what they're doing with their fucking money,

2651
02:27:05,680 --> 02:27:08,320
Speaker 4: and they get to make sure that these banks aren't

2652
02:27:08,360 --> 02:27:13,080
Speaker 4: doing insane shit. Okay, that makes sense because they're insurance. Yeah,

2653
02:27:13,120 --> 02:27:16,640
Speaker 4: and that like they're not doing like unbelievably risky, awful shit,

2654
02:27:16,920 --> 02:27:19,000
Speaker 4: and also that they're actually holding enough money to be

2655
02:27:19,000 --> 02:27:20,400
Speaker 4: able to pay people out right.

2656
02:27:20,480 --> 02:27:22,680
Speaker 16: Okay, so far, so good, I understand bank.

2657
02:27:23,480 --> 02:27:29,280
Speaker 4: Yeah. Now, shadow banking boldly asked the question, Okay, but

2658
02:27:29,280 --> 02:27:32,800
Speaker 4: what if you did all of the banking backwards, no

2659
02:27:32,840 --> 02:27:36,920
Speaker 4: one had access to the books, and the governments will

2660
02:27:36,920 --> 02:27:40,119
Speaker 4: only pay you back if the entire world economy looks

2661
02:27:40,120 --> 02:27:42,320
Speaker 4: like it's going to die. I feel like at that.

2662
02:27:42,320 --> 02:27:45,240
Speaker 16: Point the government should just just step back.

2663
02:27:45,120 --> 02:27:49,320
Speaker 4: And here's the thing. Here's the thing, right I I

2664
02:27:49,320 --> 02:27:51,600
Speaker 4: I yeah, Like I'm so down with this, Like yeah,

2665
02:27:51,640 --> 02:27:53,600
Speaker 4: I don't know, fuck it, Like every single one of

2666
02:27:53,600 --> 02:27:55,960
Speaker 4: your motherfuckers is gonna pay this off by working as

2667
02:27:55,959 --> 02:27:59,080
Speaker 4: a barista for thirty years, like fuck you. But the

2668
02:27:59,120 --> 02:28:01,760
Speaker 4: government was like, nah, we want like we want capitalism

2669
02:28:01,760 --> 02:28:02,360
Speaker 4: to keep working.

2670
02:28:02,520 --> 02:28:05,200
Speaker 16: Make every hedge fund manager work at a waffle house.

2671
02:28:05,320 --> 02:28:17,480
Speaker 17: Yeah, fuck them.

2672
02:28:17,560 --> 02:28:19,560
Speaker 4: Okay, I'm gonna say something and then I'm gonna make

2673
02:28:19,560 --> 02:28:23,720
Speaker 4: a disclaim. So the kind of shadow banks that did

2674
02:28:23,760 --> 02:28:27,680
Speaker 4: two thousand and eight work in the opposite direction. They

2675
02:28:27,760 --> 02:28:31,160
Speaker 4: start with debt, they take that debt, and they turn

2676
02:28:31,240 --> 02:28:34,840
Speaker 4: that debt into like cash, right.

2677
02:28:35,400 --> 02:28:39,360
Speaker 16: Can I do that No, does that work for me

2678
02:28:39,440 --> 02:28:40,200
Speaker 16: at my hed No?

2679
02:28:41,000 --> 02:28:43,200
Speaker 4: So okay, And I also want to mention there's a

2680
02:28:43,200 --> 02:28:45,240
Speaker 4: bunch of other kinds of shadow banks. The kind of

2681
02:28:45,280 --> 02:28:48,240
Speaker 4: shadow bank that's going under right now is not really this.

2682
02:28:48,959 --> 02:28:51,600
Speaker 4: The kind of shadow bank that's like exploding right now

2683
02:28:51,680 --> 02:28:54,240
Speaker 4: is a kind of shadow bank that's like what if

2684
02:28:54,280 --> 02:28:58,120
Speaker 4: a bank that wasn't a bank gave a completely unregulated

2685
02:28:58,200 --> 02:29:02,640
Speaker 4: loan with secret terms to a corporation, And that's the

2686
02:29:02,640 --> 02:29:05,640
Speaker 4: one that's going under right now. But for a long

2687
02:29:05,720 --> 02:29:07,520
Speaker 4: long time, the kind of shadow bank that was really

2688
02:29:07,520 --> 02:29:10,040
Speaker 4: important to the global economy, and this is still like

2689
02:29:10,120 --> 02:29:13,480
Speaker 4: a massive portion of how all of the economic system works,

2690
02:29:14,000 --> 02:29:16,960
Speaker 4: is these ones where you're trying to take debt and

2691
02:29:17,040 --> 02:29:20,959
Speaker 4: turn it into something you can trade for cash. So, okay,

2692
02:29:21,240 --> 02:29:23,959
Speaker 4: you take debt, right, you start off with a mortgage. Okay,

2693
02:29:24,120 --> 02:29:27,320
Speaker 4: so these mortgages pay out over the extremely long term, right,

2694
02:29:27,720 --> 02:29:30,240
Speaker 4: But you want to be able to trade this mortgage

2695
02:29:30,240 --> 02:29:34,200
Speaker 4: for cash, right, And this is a process called securitization.

2696
02:29:35,120 --> 02:29:37,440
Speaker 4: Turning this mortgage into something you can sell for cash

2697
02:29:37,520 --> 02:29:41,840
Speaker 4: is making it into what's called a security. So now

2698
02:29:41,959 --> 02:29:45,200
Speaker 4: what happens right when is packaged into a security when

2699
02:29:45,200 --> 02:29:47,960
Speaker 4: there's a securitization process, and then like the regular bank,

2700
02:29:48,160 --> 02:29:51,039
Speaker 4: the regular bank sends the mortgage to the shadow bank,

2701
02:29:51,280 --> 02:29:55,199
Speaker 4: and the shadow bank like does like stuff and turns

2702
02:29:55,240 --> 02:29:58,120
Speaker 4: it into a security. And now what this means is

2703
02:29:58,160 --> 02:30:00,480
Speaker 4: that instead of you, who paid the more gage, owing

2704
02:30:00,520 --> 02:30:02,879
Speaker 4: money to the bank, you own it to the shadow

2705
02:30:02,920 --> 02:30:05,200
Speaker 4: bank or whoever the fuck the shadow bank sells it to.

2706
02:30:05,360 --> 02:30:09,000
Speaker 16: Right, Okay, so the real bank is involved, The real

2707
02:30:09,000 --> 02:30:09,920
Speaker 16: bank is involved.

2708
02:30:10,040 --> 02:30:12,160
Speaker 4: Yes, oh yes, the real bank is making so much

2709
02:30:12,160 --> 02:30:14,160
Speaker 4: money off of this. Is this is why two thousand

2710
02:30:14,200 --> 02:30:14,760
Speaker 4: and eight happened.

2711
02:30:15,000 --> 02:30:17,480
Speaker 16: Oh because Wells Fargo did this with everybody's mortgage.

2712
02:30:17,680 --> 02:30:18,879
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, oh yeah, okay.

2713
02:30:18,680 --> 02:30:20,360
Speaker 16: Because I couldn't figure out because you said this is

2714
02:30:20,400 --> 02:30:21,600
Speaker 16: a two thousand names and I was like, I thought,

2715
02:30:21,640 --> 02:30:23,960
Speaker 16: Wells Fargo did that. That's a real bank. Oh, the

2716
02:30:24,080 --> 02:30:25,640
Speaker 16: real bank was shadow banking.

2717
02:30:25,800 --> 02:30:29,480
Speaker 4: The real bank figured out a way to sell their mortgages.

2718
02:30:30,120 --> 02:30:32,600
Speaker 4: And it's gonna get much worse as we go through this.

2719
02:30:33,120 --> 02:30:35,840
Speaker 4: But that's what causes this, right, is like turning is

2720
02:30:35,959 --> 02:30:40,360
Speaker 4: turning these mortgages into these like securities and like these

2721
02:30:40,400 --> 02:30:44,520
Speaker 4: like collateralized debt obligations and these like special packaged bullshit

2722
02:30:44,560 --> 02:30:46,640
Speaker 4: that you could sell to someone. So the way I

2723
02:30:46,680 --> 02:30:49,240
Speaker 4: would describe this is it's like, do you know how

2724
02:30:49,320 --> 02:30:54,240
Speaker 4: a bond works? Honestly, Mia, I do not. Okay, we

2725
02:30:54,360 --> 02:30:56,920
Speaker 4: let's let's do this. We can we can do this. Okay.

2726
02:30:57,000 --> 02:30:59,640
Speaker 4: So the kind of bond that you are normally likely

2727
02:30:59,720 --> 02:31:02,760
Speaker 4: to in character is a government bond. Yeah, okay, So

2728
02:31:02,879 --> 02:31:05,840
Speaker 4: you you pay the government money to buy the bond,

2729
02:31:06,840 --> 02:31:08,960
Speaker 4: and what the bond says is at a certain point

2730
02:31:09,000 --> 02:31:11,800
Speaker 4: in time, you hand it back to the government and

2731
02:31:11,879 --> 02:31:12,920
Speaker 4: they pay you more money.

2732
02:31:13,040 --> 02:31:14,280
Speaker 16: Right, It's like a promise for later.

2733
02:31:14,680 --> 02:31:18,080
Speaker 4: Yeah. Right, So it's it's basically a loan, but it's

2734
02:31:18,120 --> 02:31:21,720
Speaker 4: a loan in a form where like the government's technically

2735
02:31:21,800 --> 02:31:24,960
Speaker 4: like selling it. And and then the other thing about bonds,

2736
02:31:25,040 --> 02:31:27,800
Speaker 4: right is if you hand the bond to someone else,

2737
02:31:28,640 --> 02:31:30,240
Speaker 4: well okay, I mean this is technically bear bonds, but

2738
02:31:30,280 --> 02:31:33,400
Speaker 4: like you can you can then give the bond to

2739
02:31:33,560 --> 02:31:36,240
Speaker 4: someone else, and now if they give it back to

2740
02:31:36,280 --> 02:31:38,120
Speaker 4: the government, they get the money in like ten years,

2741
02:31:38,160 --> 02:31:40,200
Speaker 4: they get the money, right, right, Okay, I get that.

2742
02:31:40,600 --> 02:31:42,440
Speaker 4: And you can sell these things, and this is what

2743
02:31:42,560 --> 02:31:44,920
Speaker 4: these people are doing with mortgages.

2744
02:31:46,080 --> 02:31:48,640
Speaker 16: That's not as like secured as like a government bond,

2745
02:31:48,680 --> 02:31:50,320
Speaker 16: because if I had one hundred dollars government, like if

2746
02:31:50,320 --> 02:31:52,600
Speaker 16: I have one hundred dollar bearers bond, I know for

2747
02:31:52,760 --> 02:31:54,720
Speaker 16: a fact on the date on the bond, it's going

2748
02:31:54,760 --> 02:31:55,240
Speaker 16: to be worth.

2749
02:31:55,080 --> 02:31:57,320
Speaker 4: One hundred dollars. Yeah, they're gonna pay out right.

2750
02:31:57,640 --> 02:32:01,720
Speaker 16: But if it's mortgage, the government's go pay it. But

2751
02:32:01,840 --> 02:32:05,080
Speaker 16: like the mortgage, the property has the work. That's not Yep,

2752
02:32:05,160 --> 02:32:05,760
Speaker 16: that's not real.

2753
02:32:05,879 --> 02:32:08,280
Speaker 4: That's not money. Nope, yep, that's like that's a that's

2754
02:32:08,320 --> 02:32:10,760
Speaker 4: a promise. But like my hand, it's behind my back. Yeah,

2755
02:32:10,879 --> 02:32:14,000
Speaker 4: it's it's a shit show. And this whole process is

2756
02:32:14,240 --> 02:32:15,959
Speaker 4: the largest sort of I'm not sure if it's actually

2757
02:32:16,000 --> 02:32:18,880
Speaker 4: the largest that I would need to actually get I've

2758
02:32:18,920 --> 02:32:22,040
Speaker 4: never I haven't seen in death breakdown sectorially.

2759
02:32:21,640 --> 02:32:23,360
Speaker 16: But like, none of this is real. You could just

2760
02:32:23,360 --> 02:32:24,160
Speaker 16: say whatever.

2761
02:32:24,959 --> 02:32:26,520
Speaker 4: This this is one of the most important kind of

2762
02:32:26,560 --> 02:32:30,440
Speaker 4: shadow banks because in order to turn this mortgage into

2763
02:32:30,520 --> 02:32:33,040
Speaker 4: security the moment you do that, you do this by

2764
02:32:33,160 --> 02:32:35,879
Speaker 4: creating what's called a special purpose vehicle, or someone else

2765
02:32:35,959 --> 02:32:38,720
Speaker 4: creates one. It's called a special purpose vehicle. Yeah, it's

2766
02:32:38,840 --> 02:32:40,160
Speaker 4: it's a nightmare. It's a nightmare.

2767
02:32:40,760 --> 02:32:42,920
Speaker 16: I'm gonna put this mortgage on a roller coaster.

2768
02:32:43,320 --> 02:32:46,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's fucking ridiculous. Right, it's a special purpose vehicle,

2769
02:32:47,080 --> 02:32:49,680
Speaker 4: is it does a loopy loop. But the moment you

2770
02:32:49,760 --> 02:32:51,680
Speaker 4: create one of these, the moment you create one of

2771
02:32:51,760 --> 02:32:55,840
Speaker 4: these like security mortgages, right, that's a shadow bank. You've

2772
02:32:55,840 --> 02:32:56,879
Speaker 4: created a shadow bank.

2773
02:32:56,879 --> 02:32:59,000
Speaker 16: Right, because that's not real banking. That's shadow bank.

2774
02:32:59,240 --> 02:32:59,440
Speaker 18: Yep.

2775
02:32:59,720 --> 02:33:01,840
Speaker 4: Because because you're creating another entity that is not a

2776
02:33:01,920 --> 02:33:03,840
Speaker 4: bank that's doing the banking stuff.

2777
02:33:04,160 --> 02:33:06,080
Speaker 16: I thought that the banking and the shadow banking were

2778
02:33:06,120 --> 02:33:09,400
Speaker 16: like separate things, right, because it's shadow like it's like, oh,

2779
02:33:09,400 --> 02:33:09,760
Speaker 16: they're doing.

2780
02:33:09,760 --> 02:33:13,080
Speaker 4: Non things, they're all in all.

2781
02:33:13,280 --> 02:33:17,000
Speaker 16: If the bank is the shadow banking, I would I'm stupid,

2782
02:33:17,080 --> 02:33:17,840
Speaker 16: but I would call.

2783
02:33:17,800 --> 02:33:20,560
Speaker 4: That a crime. This is this is another thing that

2784
02:33:20,640 --> 02:33:22,200
Speaker 4: costs two thousand and eight because a bunch of what

2785
02:33:22,320 --> 02:33:25,960
Speaker 4: was happening. Isn't that a crime? Because our country is

2786
02:33:26,000 --> 02:33:28,240
Speaker 4: run by the bourgeoisie, Molly that that's why it's not

2787
02:33:28,320 --> 02:33:31,560
Speaker 4: a crime. You're just telling me this for the first time. Yeah,

2788
02:33:31,879 --> 02:33:32,360
Speaker 4: it's bad.

2789
02:33:32,640 --> 02:33:33,560
Speaker 13: So so what what what?

2790
02:33:33,640 --> 02:33:35,280
Speaker 4: What happened? What happened in two thousand and eight. One

2791
02:33:35,320 --> 02:33:37,320
Speaker 4: of the things that happened, right, is so all of

2792
02:33:37,360 --> 02:33:39,440
Speaker 4: these regulators are supposed to be looking at the balance

2793
02:33:39,480 --> 02:33:43,280
Speaker 4: sheets of these companies, but they're hiding stuff off the books. Yeah,

2794
02:33:43,320 --> 02:33:46,400
Speaker 4: they were hiding these things in these like special purpose vehicles,

2795
02:33:46,520 --> 02:33:48,000
Speaker 4: like in these like shadow banks.

2796
02:33:48,040 --> 02:33:50,320
Speaker 16: They didn't open the trunks on the special purpose vehicles.

2797
02:33:50,640 --> 02:33:52,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, so no one could see the fucking dead bodies

2798
02:33:52,400 --> 02:33:54,480
Speaker 4: in the trunks of the vehicles because they weren't on

2799
02:33:54,640 --> 02:33:56,680
Speaker 4: the balance sheet that like the government had access to.

2800
02:33:56,959 --> 02:33:58,480
Speaker 16: What's the point of the balance sheet if you don't

2801
02:33:58,480 --> 02:33:59,520
Speaker 16: put the whole balance on it.

2802
02:34:00,879 --> 02:34:04,480
Speaker 4: I'm fucking I don't know. And this is like legitimately

2803
02:34:04,720 --> 02:34:07,880
Speaker 4: when you read the accounts of like why shadow making

2804
02:34:07,920 --> 02:34:09,959
Speaker 4: has exploded, by the way it's exploded since two thousand

2805
02:34:09,959 --> 02:34:12,160
Speaker 4: and eight, it's like way bigger exploded.

2806
02:34:11,720 --> 02:34:14,800
Speaker 16: Like in popularity, or like exploded as in like distrubularity.

2807
02:34:15,040 --> 02:34:16,720
Speaker 4: There's so much there's so much more of it. There's

2808
02:34:16,760 --> 02:34:18,360
Speaker 4: so much more of it because also, oh.

2809
02:34:18,280 --> 02:34:20,760
Speaker 16: Because it went so well, It went so well in

2810
02:34:20,840 --> 02:34:21,720
Speaker 16: two thousand and eight, and now.

2811
02:34:21,640 --> 02:34:24,280
Speaker 4: We're because here's the thing. After two thousand and eight,

2812
02:34:24,320 --> 02:34:27,280
Speaker 4: we got like a little tiny bit of banking regulation,

2813
02:34:27,720 --> 02:34:30,760
Speaker 4: and the banks lost their fucking minds, and so more

2814
02:34:30,800 --> 02:34:34,119
Speaker 4: and more money went into all of these unhidden shadow

2815
02:34:34,160 --> 02:34:34,640
Speaker 4: making things.

2816
02:34:34,760 --> 02:34:36,720
Speaker 16: Okay, but so like when a toddler has a tantrum,

2817
02:34:36,800 --> 02:34:38,400
Speaker 16: you don't give them a billion dollars.

2818
02:34:38,879 --> 02:34:41,360
Speaker 4: When the shadow banks went under, these things were not

2819
02:34:41,440 --> 02:34:43,520
Speaker 4: backed by the government. The government bailed them out anyways. Yeah,

2820
02:34:43,520 --> 02:34:45,000
Speaker 4: they didn't have to do that. Nope.

2821
02:34:45,080 --> 02:34:47,280
Speaker 16: So they really they learned their lesson. They really learned

2822
02:34:47,320 --> 02:34:48,200
Speaker 16: their lesson this time.

2823
02:34:48,600 --> 02:34:50,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like they bailed out these banks and they fucking

2824
02:34:51,000 --> 02:34:53,800
Speaker 4: sold you out, and like you know, like and one

2825
02:34:53,840 --> 02:34:55,680
Speaker 4: of the things that I think people have forgotten was

2826
02:34:55,720 --> 02:34:58,520
Speaker 4: there's this thing called robocalls durning the Obama administration. Right,

2827
02:34:59,040 --> 02:35:02,320
Speaker 4: part of how the financial recovery happened was that all

2828
02:35:02,400 --> 02:35:06,640
Speaker 4: these banks would like go to courthouses, right, and they

2829
02:35:06,680 --> 02:35:08,840
Speaker 4: would just repossess mortgages on Mass.

2830
02:35:09,600 --> 02:35:09,760
Speaker 19: Oh.

2831
02:35:10,240 --> 02:35:12,200
Speaker 4: And they had like a robot that was like signed it.

2832
02:35:12,560 --> 02:35:15,200
Speaker 4: It would just sign like a blank check sign off

2833
02:35:15,240 --> 02:35:17,240
Speaker 4: on all of these mortgages that were supposed to be underwater.

2834
02:35:18,000 --> 02:35:20,840
Speaker 4: And they would just steal people's houses, people who were

2835
02:35:20,879 --> 02:35:22,760
Speaker 4: on top of their payings, people who liked to know money.

2836
02:35:22,959 --> 02:35:25,360
Speaker 4: They would just take their houses. And this happened on

2837
02:35:25,600 --> 02:35:28,640
Speaker 4: Mass And this is like how the banks recovered was

2838
02:35:28,680 --> 02:35:31,600
Speaker 4: they stole everyone's houses and that's a crime, right, it

2839
02:35:31,640 --> 02:35:34,360
Speaker 4: should have been a crime, like it was illegal. It

2840
02:35:34,440 --> 02:35:37,320
Speaker 4: didn't matter though, because everything you're describing to me as

2841
02:35:37,320 --> 02:35:39,640
Speaker 4: a crime, it's so nightmarish. Well it's here's the thing,

2842
02:35:39,879 --> 02:35:41,680
Speaker 4: most of this of them describing is not a crime.

2843
02:35:42,040 --> 02:35:45,120
Speaker 4: This was actually a crime. But why isn't nobody in

2844
02:35:45,280 --> 02:35:48,000
Speaker 4: jail because Barack Obama went up in front of these

2845
02:35:48,040 --> 02:35:50,240
Speaker 4: people and said, I am the only thing standing between

2846
02:35:50,280 --> 02:35:52,720
Speaker 4: you and the guillotines. I'm pretty sure that's a direct quote.

2847
02:35:52,840 --> 02:35:55,240
Speaker 4: And why didn't he bring the guillotine with him? Because

2848
02:35:55,480 --> 02:36:01,879
Speaker 4: he wants the capital assistant to continue. I mean, I'm

2849
02:36:01,959 --> 02:36:05,400
Speaker 4: just upset. It's not good. Okay, So let's get you

2850
02:36:05,440 --> 02:36:07,600
Speaker 4: another question that you asked, which is why would you

2851
02:36:07,720 --> 02:36:11,200
Speaker 4: do this? Why would you do this to make money? Yes,

2852
02:36:11,320 --> 02:36:14,560
Speaker 4: but it's actually more complicated than that. Oh okay. So

2853
02:36:14,720 --> 02:36:17,800
Speaker 4: on the one hand, these assets, you know, a mortgage

2854
02:36:17,879 --> 02:36:20,400
Speaker 4: does make more money than just putting your money in

2855
02:36:20,480 --> 02:36:23,440
Speaker 4: the bank. Right, That's like the basis of banking is

2856
02:36:23,520 --> 02:36:25,560
Speaker 4: that they can use your money that's sitting in the

2857
02:36:25,600 --> 02:36:27,400
Speaker 4: bank and getting interested and then they make more money

2858
02:36:27,440 --> 02:36:27,920
Speaker 4: by spending it.

2859
02:36:28,000 --> 02:36:28,360
Speaker 5: Elsewhere.

2860
02:36:28,680 --> 02:36:30,560
Speaker 16: But so they're just doing this because they hate us,

2861
02:36:30,800 --> 02:36:31,720
Speaker 16: not just to make money.

2862
02:36:31,959 --> 02:36:35,119
Speaker 4: No, there is an actual explanation, there's a third reason.

2863
02:36:35,720 --> 02:36:38,640
Speaker 4: So then why would you ever have your money in

2864
02:36:38,760 --> 02:36:41,640
Speaker 4: a bank or like buy something like safe like government

2865
02:36:41,680 --> 02:36:44,920
Speaker 4: bonds you can sell really quickly, right, Why would you

2866
02:36:45,080 --> 02:36:49,879
Speaker 4: ever want that? And the reason why is something called liquidity?

2867
02:36:50,520 --> 02:36:50,640
Speaker 18: Right.

2868
02:36:50,720 --> 02:36:52,360
Speaker 16: You want to be able to spend the money, yes,

2869
02:36:52,560 --> 02:36:54,760
Speaker 16: rather than wait thirty years for it to get paid back.

2870
02:36:55,000 --> 02:36:57,800
Speaker 4: Yes. Liquidity is just how easy is it to turn

2871
02:36:58,120 --> 02:36:59,400
Speaker 4: whatever you own into cash?

2872
02:36:59,600 --> 02:36:59,720
Speaker 5: Right?

2873
02:37:00,120 --> 02:37:00,720
Speaker 4: Real money?

2874
02:37:00,760 --> 02:37:02,520
Speaker 16: Because most of it we're talking about is not money,

2875
02:37:02,840 --> 02:37:04,000
Speaker 16: it's the idea of money.

2876
02:37:04,959 --> 02:37:08,880
Speaker 4: Yes, so, so liquidity is literally it's the burger test?

2877
02:37:08,959 --> 02:37:09,080
Speaker 6: Right?

2878
02:37:09,160 --> 02:37:12,800
Speaker 4: Can you buy a burger with this? Can I eat this? Money?

2879
02:37:12,959 --> 02:37:15,120
Speaker 4: Is like the most liquid asset, right, because you can?

2880
02:37:15,200 --> 02:37:16,640
Speaker 4: You can? You can turn this into a burger?

2881
02:37:16,800 --> 02:37:18,680
Speaker 16: Right, So liquidity is the only part of this that's

2882
02:37:18,680 --> 02:37:20,480
Speaker 16: actually money. Everything else is not money.

2883
02:37:21,000 --> 02:37:23,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, liquidity is the measure of how money is it?

2884
02:37:24,240 --> 02:37:27,279
Speaker 4: Basically like, how easy is it to turn this into burger?

2885
02:37:27,640 --> 02:37:30,800
Speaker 16: Is this a special vehicle securitization?

2886
02:37:31,280 --> 02:37:34,440
Speaker 4: That's not real? Mia, No, it's fake as shit, right,

2887
02:37:35,200 --> 02:37:38,039
Speaker 4: this is not that complicated, right if you if it's

2888
02:37:38,160 --> 02:37:39,760
Speaker 4: like like you can you can buy a burger with

2889
02:37:39,879 --> 02:37:42,560
Speaker 4: ten dollars, yeah, right, that's liquid. Actually you kind of

2890
02:37:42,600 --> 02:37:43,320
Speaker 4: can't these days.

2891
02:37:43,920 --> 02:37:44,120
Speaker 5: I know.

2892
02:37:45,040 --> 02:37:51,200
Speaker 4: Look, I look, I imagine a world where you can

2893
02:37:51,280 --> 02:37:55,240
Speaker 4: buy a burger for ten dollars. Imagine imagine a burger, yes,

2894
02:37:55,600 --> 02:37:59,240
Speaker 4: imagine a burger that's purchasable. Now, what you can't buy

2895
02:37:59,280 --> 02:38:03,280
Speaker 4: a burger with is like the ten bucks that a

2896
02:38:03,400 --> 02:38:06,600
Speaker 4: guy you work with owes you for buying him a burger.

2897
02:38:06,840 --> 02:38:08,320
Speaker 16: Depends on how well you know the burger guy.

2898
02:38:09,120 --> 02:38:13,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, but that's that's where things get bad. Yeah, right now,

2899
02:38:13,920 --> 02:38:15,880
Speaker 4: the thing is right, right, So the ten bucks the

2900
02:38:15,920 --> 02:38:19,720
Speaker 4: guy you work with like owes you not liquid. You

2901
02:38:19,760 --> 02:38:21,280
Speaker 4: don't have the money in your hands, and if you

2902
02:38:21,360 --> 02:38:23,160
Speaker 4: want to get it from him, you have to like

2903
02:38:23,720 --> 02:38:25,520
Speaker 4: go ask him for the money, and maybe he has

2904
02:38:25,600 --> 02:38:27,760
Speaker 4: ten bucks and maybe he doesn't, right at which point

2905
02:38:27,840 --> 02:38:30,280
Speaker 4: you can't get your ten dollars back until he has

2906
02:38:30,320 --> 02:38:30,640
Speaker 4: the money.

2907
02:38:30,920 --> 02:38:33,600
Speaker 16: That but then ten dollars that I'm theoretically owed is

2908
02:38:33,680 --> 02:38:35,680
Speaker 16: an asset though I have not a debt.

2909
02:38:36,320 --> 02:38:41,400
Speaker 4: Yes, okay, yes, it's stupid. Now, Loans loans are not

2910
02:38:41,600 --> 02:38:43,880
Speaker 4: liquid assets, right, and they're not liquid assets because you

2911
02:38:43,920 --> 02:38:45,560
Speaker 4: can't get the money back like immediately.

2912
02:38:45,879 --> 02:38:47,760
Speaker 16: So I don't have ten dollars I can spend, but

2913
02:38:47,840 --> 02:38:50,240
Speaker 16: on paper, I do have ten theoretical dollars.

2914
02:38:50,600 --> 02:38:52,480
Speaker 4: Yeah right. And this is also like most of what

2915
02:38:52,600 --> 02:38:55,240
Speaker 4: billionaire money is, hey, correct, Like most of their money

2916
02:38:55,400 --> 02:38:57,800
Speaker 4: is like in like a stock or some shit or

2917
02:38:57,920 --> 02:38:59,480
Speaker 4: like it's weird fake money.

2918
02:38:59,520 --> 02:39:01,879
Speaker 16: Like they could access this amount of money, but.

2919
02:39:01,840 --> 02:39:04,360
Speaker 4: They don't have it. Yeah, it's not real now, Okay,

2920
02:39:05,560 --> 02:39:07,240
Speaker 4: there is this question, so why why would you keep

2921
02:39:07,280 --> 02:39:09,480
Speaker 4: your money in fake money instead of real money? And

2922
02:39:09,600 --> 02:39:12,440
Speaker 4: the answer is that it gives you more money back

2923
02:39:12,920 --> 02:39:16,480
Speaker 4: because say you're an asshole, right, and you're charging interest

2924
02:39:16,640 --> 02:39:18,599
Speaker 4: on your coworker for that burger.

2925
02:39:18,360 --> 02:39:20,600
Speaker 16: Love right, So that ten dollars is actually worth more

2926
02:39:20,640 --> 02:39:22,880
Speaker 16: than ten dollars money. So the ten dollars that I

2927
02:39:23,000 --> 02:39:25,960
Speaker 16: don't have is theoretically worthwll.

2928
02:39:25,680 --> 02:39:28,080
Speaker 4: You're worth more. Yeah, it's worth more than the money

2929
02:39:28,160 --> 02:39:31,760
Speaker 4: that you do have. I can get cheese on the burger, yes, right.

2930
02:39:33,320 --> 02:39:36,600
Speaker 4: And this is like the fundamental thing of the banking system,

2931
02:39:36,760 --> 02:39:39,440
Speaker 4: Like one of them is that ill liquid assets or

2932
02:39:39,520 --> 02:39:42,040
Speaker 4: like assets that you that aren't money are worth more

2933
02:39:42,320 --> 02:39:42,959
Speaker 4: than money.

2934
02:39:43,800 --> 02:39:46,160
Speaker 16: I guess like when I put a small amount of

2935
02:39:46,240 --> 02:39:49,800
Speaker 16: my savings into a CD. That's what I'm doing, except

2936
02:39:49,879 --> 02:39:54,119
Speaker 16: normal style. They're doing it weird. Yeah, basically because that's

2937
02:39:54,160 --> 02:39:56,920
Speaker 16: like an I liquid asset that I'm I'm I'm trading

2938
02:39:56,959 --> 02:40:00,400
Speaker 16: the ability to access that liquidity for the POTENTI more

2939
02:40:00,400 --> 02:40:00,840
Speaker 16: money later.

2940
02:40:00,879 --> 02:40:02,280
Speaker 4: Wait. Sorry when you say do you mean like a

2941
02:40:02,440 --> 02:40:04,760
Speaker 4: like a physical like a disc, like a CD. No,

2942
02:40:04,879 --> 02:40:07,160
Speaker 4: a CD like at the bank, like the yeah yeah,

2943
02:40:07,320 --> 02:40:10,560
Speaker 4: like the investment product. Yeah sure, yeah yeah, Sorry. I

2944
02:40:10,680 --> 02:40:13,480
Speaker 4: was like, no, I'm not talking about buying compact. I

2945
02:40:14,040 --> 02:40:16,600
Speaker 4: would just leave at five am this time. It's been

2946
02:40:17,760 --> 02:40:20,959
Speaker 4: ever heard of it. Wow, there's there's actually a really

2947
02:40:21,400 --> 02:40:24,480
Speaker 4: an annoying thing researching this episode because there's like, so

2948
02:40:25,000 --> 02:40:27,440
Speaker 4: CDOs are like a type of loan that will kind

2949
02:40:27,440 --> 02:40:28,840
Speaker 4: of get you in a bit. But there's also a

2950
02:40:28,959 --> 02:40:32,640
Speaker 4: tech position called cdo. It's like chief something.

2951
02:40:32,480 --> 02:40:34,400
Speaker 16: Officer, a dookie officer who cares.

2952
02:40:34,560 --> 02:40:36,600
Speaker 4: Yeah whatever the fuck? Right, But like when you're trying

2953
02:40:36,680 --> 02:40:40,200
Speaker 4: to search for stuff that's like about CDOs, right, the

2954
02:40:40,360 --> 02:40:44,240
Speaker 4: other one keeps coming up. I hate it. Okay, okay,

2955
02:40:44,320 --> 02:40:47,760
Speaker 4: locking in, locking in, right, lock and load. Now what

2956
02:40:47,959 --> 02:40:50,600
Speaker 4: if you both want into more money and also the

2957
02:40:50,680 --> 02:40:51,720
Speaker 4: ability to buy a burger.

2958
02:40:52,160 --> 02:40:55,640
Speaker 16: I guess I would uh probably break one of Carl's fingers.

2959
02:40:56,280 --> 02:40:58,280
Speaker 16: This is the guy that owes me the ten dollars, Carl.

2960
02:40:58,640 --> 02:41:02,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, but even then, and it's hard to even that's like,

2961
02:41:03,040 --> 02:41:04,440
Speaker 4: this is too hard for these people.

2962
02:41:04,600 --> 02:41:06,520
Speaker 16: I would go to Carl's house and kick him out

2963
02:41:06,560 --> 02:41:06,680
Speaker 16: of it.

2964
02:41:07,280 --> 02:41:09,520
Speaker 4: Well yeah, so but the other thing is like you

2965
02:41:09,680 --> 02:41:12,320
Speaker 4: are not very rich, okay these people. If you are

2966
02:41:12,800 --> 02:41:16,080
Speaker 4: really really rich, I am talking like billionaires maybe like

2967
02:41:16,200 --> 02:41:19,560
Speaker 4: high high class multimillionaires. Well, you can go to a

2968
02:41:19,640 --> 02:41:23,320
Speaker 4: shadow bank. Oh right, you can get a loan based

2969
02:41:23,360 --> 02:41:26,120
Speaker 4: on the loan. No, well you're saying. So the thing

2970
02:41:26,200 --> 02:41:29,520
Speaker 4: is that you have money, right, but you want to

2971
02:41:29,600 --> 02:41:32,200
Speaker 4: turn your money into more money, Like you have like

2972
02:41:32,200 --> 02:41:35,840
Speaker 4: actual cash, right, like you are you are, for example,

2973
02:41:35,879 --> 02:41:39,360
Speaker 4: a pension fund. You have a shit ton of cash.

2974
02:41:39,840 --> 02:41:41,720
Speaker 4: Or imagine imagine a pension fund.

2975
02:41:41,840 --> 02:41:41,920
Speaker 3: Right.

2976
02:41:42,280 --> 02:41:42,920
Speaker 2: This is okay.

2977
02:41:43,320 --> 02:41:45,080
Speaker 4: This is also really hard because it used to be

2978
02:41:45,160 --> 02:41:47,520
Speaker 4: easier to explain this because like we used to live

2979
02:41:47,560 --> 02:41:50,080
Speaker 4: in a world where people had pension funds and had mortgages,

2980
02:41:50,480 --> 02:41:53,320
Speaker 4: and now we no longer have pension funds or mortgages.

2981
02:41:54,280 --> 02:41:56,200
Speaker 16: I live in an apartment, and I will always live

2982
02:41:56,280 --> 02:41:56,920
Speaker 16: in an apartment.

2983
02:41:57,560 --> 02:41:57,800
Speaker 12: Yeah.

2984
02:41:57,959 --> 02:42:01,240
Speaker 4: No, and still okay, So like imagine imagine a pension fund. Right,

2985
02:42:01,920 --> 02:42:04,080
Speaker 4: you have a shit ton of money from your members

2986
02:42:04,120 --> 02:42:07,400
Speaker 4: paying into the fund, but it's cash. You need to

2987
02:42:07,440 --> 02:42:10,320
Speaker 4: turn that cash into more money. But also you're a

2988
02:42:10,440 --> 02:42:13,320
Speaker 4: pension fund, so you constantly have to take money back

2989
02:42:13,480 --> 02:42:15,800
Speaker 4: out in order to pay the people who are retiring

2990
02:42:15,920 --> 02:42:18,640
Speaker 4: to pay old right. Well, yeah, and this is also

2991
02:42:18,680 --> 02:42:19,760
Speaker 4: a thing that like, you know, if you're just like

2992
02:42:19,800 --> 02:42:21,880
Speaker 4: a rich person, sometimes you want your a lot of

2993
02:42:21,920 --> 02:42:25,080
Speaker 4: times you want your money in assets that are like

2994
02:42:25,440 --> 02:42:27,240
Speaker 4: you can you can turn back into real money, but

2995
02:42:27,320 --> 02:42:28,760
Speaker 4: also make you a shit ton of money.

2996
02:42:29,400 --> 02:42:29,520
Speaker 18: Right.

2997
02:42:29,560 --> 02:42:31,480
Speaker 16: They need to sort of revolve a little bit theyd

2998
02:42:31,600 --> 02:42:34,400
Speaker 16: be like yeah, I don't know, like a jello like

2999
02:42:34,520 --> 02:42:35,400
Speaker 16: partially liquid.

3000
02:42:35,720 --> 02:42:39,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, and this is this is what the shadow banks do, right,

3001
02:42:39,440 --> 02:42:41,840
Speaker 4: because the thing that you can buy is one of

3002
02:42:41,920 --> 02:42:45,320
Speaker 4: those mortgages they've turned into like a security. Right, you

3003
02:42:45,400 --> 02:42:48,400
Speaker 4: can go buy someone else's debt, huh, but because it's

3004
02:42:48,440 --> 02:42:51,720
Speaker 4: a magic security now, and these are called mortgage backed securities.

3005
02:42:51,800 --> 02:42:54,560
Speaker 4: And again, if you're to remember, yeah, anything about anything

3006
02:42:54,560 --> 02:42:56,360
Speaker 4: about two thousand and eight, that's what blew up the

3007
02:42:56,360 --> 02:42:58,680
Speaker 4: whole economy. Is these mortgage backed securities?

3008
02:42:58,840 --> 02:43:01,119
Speaker 16: Yeah, I've heard of that because it was bad, yep,

3009
02:43:01,640 --> 02:43:03,800
Speaker 16: terrible idea, and so we're still doing that.

3010
02:43:04,320 --> 02:43:08,560
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, it's good. I mean it's it's less specifically

3011
02:43:08,640 --> 02:43:10,760
Speaker 4: the mortgage back ones are less bad as they started

3012
02:43:10,800 --> 02:43:16,360
Speaker 4: doing it with like commercial retail loans, which is incredible. Great,

3013
02:43:16,760 --> 02:43:19,840
Speaker 4: so that's really fun. They're also doing with other unhidden

3014
02:43:19,840 --> 02:43:22,400
Speaker 4: shit that we're gonna do like next episode. And what

3015
02:43:22,480 --> 02:43:25,240
Speaker 4: these people are really buying aren't just these like you're

3016
02:43:25,240 --> 02:43:27,760
Speaker 4: not buying like one person's mortgage, right right. They're like

3017
02:43:27,840 --> 02:43:31,080
Speaker 4: pooled and like bundled. Yeah, yeah, they like they bundle

3018
02:43:31,120 --> 02:43:33,680
Speaker 4: them all together and then you you buy the rights

3019
02:43:33,760 --> 02:43:36,080
Speaker 4: to a percentage of the pool.

3020
02:43:36,640 --> 02:43:38,960
Speaker 16: It's not like when you sponsor like an elephant in

3021
02:43:39,000 --> 02:43:40,680
Speaker 16: Africa or something, and they send you a picture of

3022
02:43:40,760 --> 02:43:42,720
Speaker 16: like a specific element, or they don't send you they

3023
02:43:42,760 --> 02:43:44,960
Speaker 16: doesten to a picture of the family you're arming. No,

3024
02:43:46,040 --> 02:43:47,880
Speaker 16: these are the Joneses. You own their fucking house.

3025
02:43:47,959 --> 02:43:51,119
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's it's it's it's it's a ship show. No, well,

3026
02:43:51,600 --> 02:43:53,280
Speaker 4: I mean eventually you might have to go figure out

3027
02:43:53,320 --> 02:43:55,720
Speaker 4: who that is because you like own whatever the fuck

3028
02:43:55,760 --> 02:43:59,120
Speaker 4: percentage of like the mortgages or whatever. But like, okay,

3029
02:43:59,600 --> 02:44:02,920
Speaker 4: so these are these are just like someone else's debt

3030
02:44:03,120 --> 02:44:05,920
Speaker 4: that you're buying, and that the people who can do

3031
02:44:06,080 --> 02:44:09,120
Speaker 4: this are you know, people who have billions of dollars.

3032
02:44:09,160 --> 02:44:10,760
Speaker 4: It's not you, the listener. And by the way, if

3033
02:44:10,800 --> 02:44:12,760
Speaker 4: you the listener have billions of dollars lying around for

3034
02:44:12,840 --> 02:44:16,160
Speaker 4: some reason, can I have some please? Yes, please please

3035
02:44:16,240 --> 02:44:18,280
Speaker 4: give me some of them so I can house like

3036
02:44:18,440 --> 02:44:21,560
Speaker 4: literally every trans woman and like transperson, I can. I

3037
02:44:21,640 --> 02:44:23,600
Speaker 4: can do it, Like, please give me your billions of

3038
02:44:23,640 --> 02:44:25,600
Speaker 4: dollars so I can I can achieve this goal. But

3039
02:44:25,720 --> 02:44:28,160
Speaker 4: like we're talking about you know, like like the Pension

3040
02:44:28,200 --> 02:44:31,160
Speaker 4: Fund of California, we're talking about mega corporations, insurance companies,

3041
02:44:31,200 --> 02:44:32,840
Speaker 4: the kinds of things I can actually buy these, like

3042
02:44:33,560 --> 02:44:37,000
Speaker 4: you know. Now, this is where we get to one

3043
02:44:37,040 --> 02:44:39,440
Speaker 4: of the other problems, which is that these things are

3044
02:44:39,480 --> 02:44:45,680
Speaker 4: not insured. So yeah, what do you do in order

3045
02:44:45,760 --> 02:44:47,480
Speaker 4: to try to make it less risky? What do you

3046
02:44:47,720 --> 02:44:50,120
Speaker 4: get if you can't pay the loan back? And this

3047
02:44:50,280 --> 02:44:52,600
Speaker 4: is what's called collateral I don't know, swift punch of

3048
02:44:52,640 --> 02:44:55,880
Speaker 4: the nuts. Oh no, they take your house right, Yes,

3049
02:44:56,120 --> 02:44:58,760
Speaker 4: that's supposed to be the thing. So okay. The way

3050
02:44:58,800 --> 02:45:01,960
Speaker 4: that like shadow banking loans tend to work is that

3051
02:45:03,040 --> 02:45:06,119
Speaker 4: they they have collateral, right, so you you give them

3052
02:45:06,240 --> 02:45:09,240
Speaker 4: something or or it's either you give them something directly

3053
02:45:09,600 --> 02:45:13,120
Speaker 4: or it's like if you promise to give them the thing. Yeah,

3054
02:45:13,200 --> 02:45:16,240
Speaker 4: and giving it to them directly is like a repo

3055
02:45:16,360 --> 02:45:18,280
Speaker 4: market thing. We're not really going to get into those

3056
02:45:18,640 --> 02:45:20,880
Speaker 4: right now, but this does. That's like, that's also a

3057
02:45:21,000 --> 02:45:24,000
Speaker 4: kind of shadow bank. But there's a problem, right, which

3058
02:45:24,120 --> 02:45:26,920
Speaker 4: is what if the thing that you're paying, you're paying

3059
02:45:27,000 --> 02:45:30,240
Speaker 4: as collateral, Like what if your house becomes worthless? And

3060
02:45:30,520 --> 02:45:32,680
Speaker 4: what if? What if Molly, and it's.

3061
02:45:32,560 --> 02:45:35,600
Speaker 16: Completely uninsured and there's no way to fix it because

3062
02:45:35,600 --> 02:45:36,879
Speaker 16: I don't even have anything to give you.

3063
02:45:38,360 --> 02:45:41,400
Speaker 4: Now, now, Molly, what if And this is purely hypothetical,

3064
02:45:41,600 --> 02:45:43,640
Speaker 4: It could never happen in the real world, Molly, But

3065
02:45:43,879 --> 02:45:49,080
Speaker 4: what if somehow, someone someone decided to use the same

3066
02:45:49,440 --> 02:45:53,480
Speaker 4: house as collateral for multiple different securities.

3067
02:45:53,840 --> 02:45:54,880
Speaker 16: Well, that could never go wrong.

3068
02:45:55,400 --> 02:45:58,240
Speaker 4: What if, Mollie, they made a word for this that

3069
02:45:58,440 --> 02:46:00,880
Speaker 4: is so complicated, I am not going to attempt to

3070
02:46:00,920 --> 02:46:02,960
Speaker 4: read it on the show. What if, Molly?

3071
02:46:03,240 --> 02:46:04,400
Speaker 16: What is it in German or something.

3072
02:46:04,440 --> 02:46:06,440
Speaker 4: No, it's like it's just like this, it's like the

3073
02:46:06,640 --> 02:46:08,680
Speaker 4: it's like the length of my head. It's like hyper

3074
02:46:09,080 --> 02:46:12,720
Speaker 4: hyper something bullshit. Like I refuse to say it because

3075
02:46:12,920 --> 02:46:16,480
Speaker 4: it is just like a completely like financed goal bullshit

3076
02:46:16,640 --> 02:46:17,360
Speaker 4: term they made up.

3077
02:46:17,840 --> 02:46:21,080
Speaker 16: So but the point of the point of collateral is

3078
02:46:21,200 --> 02:46:24,280
Speaker 16: that you can use it to pay off the loan

3079
02:46:24,440 --> 02:46:27,560
Speaker 16: if you default one. And so that literally won't work

3080
02:46:27,640 --> 02:46:31,040
Speaker 16: more than once because once I eat the burger, Once

3081
02:46:31,080 --> 02:46:32,039
Speaker 16: I eat the burger.

3082
02:46:31,800 --> 02:46:34,760
Speaker 4: It's bond yep. And this is one of the things

3083
02:46:34,800 --> 02:46:36,680
Speaker 4: that happened in two thousand years. I can't prom I

3084
02:46:36,760 --> 02:46:40,320
Speaker 4: can't promise ten guys my burger, now, Molly, here's the

3085
02:46:40,360 --> 02:46:43,000
Speaker 4: amazing thing here, right, Because but then the advantage for

3086
02:46:43,040 --> 02:46:45,280
Speaker 4: these companies, right is like, if you're the bank that

3087
02:46:45,320 --> 02:46:47,520
Speaker 4: has the mortgage, suddenly you can spin your mortgage off

3088
02:46:47,520 --> 02:46:49,720
Speaker 4: into like multiple securities that you can sell.

3089
02:46:49,800 --> 02:46:52,240
Speaker 16: Right, it's worth ten times more and that's great for you.

3090
02:46:52,440 --> 02:46:58,320
Speaker 4: Yes, and comma, comma, we we haven't even okay, I

3091
02:46:59,000 --> 02:47:00,720
Speaker 4: just I just described as to where these people are

3092
02:47:00,760 --> 02:47:04,039
Speaker 4: promising the same house to multiple people. This isn't even

3093
02:47:04,200 --> 02:47:07,480
Speaker 4: the extremely unfathomably reckless and greedy shit. No it is,

3094
02:47:08,040 --> 02:47:10,360
Speaker 4: Oh it is, but it's not the worst of it.

3095
02:47:10,560 --> 02:47:23,440
Speaker 4: Oh good. Okay, So do you remember that quote from

3096
02:47:23,560 --> 02:47:26,720
Speaker 4: when I was giving the first definition of shadow banking, right, Like,

3097
02:47:26,800 --> 02:47:30,760
Speaker 4: I gave this quote from the guy who invented the

3098
02:47:30,879 --> 02:47:34,320
Speaker 4: term where he called it quote the whole alphabet soup

3099
02:47:34,360 --> 02:47:38,320
Speaker 4: of leveraged up investment conduits, vehicles, and structures. Right. So

3100
02:47:38,520 --> 02:47:41,160
Speaker 4: we've kind of talked about the conduits, vehicles, and structures, right,

3101
02:47:41,200 --> 02:47:43,280
Speaker 4: those are all of the shadow banks that like make

3102
02:47:43,320 --> 02:47:43,760
Speaker 4: the things. Right.

3103
02:47:44,040 --> 02:47:47,480
Speaker 16: I love the conduits, vehicles, and structures. Yeah, all the acronyms.

3104
02:47:48,000 --> 02:47:50,040
Speaker 4: But what does leveraged up mean?

3105
02:47:50,879 --> 02:47:51,000
Speaker 14: Now?

3106
02:47:51,640 --> 02:47:55,040
Speaker 4: Okay? In this case, it means that a bunch of

3107
02:47:55,120 --> 02:47:58,280
Speaker 4: these banks have taken out a shit ton of like

3108
02:47:59,000 --> 02:48:01,760
Speaker 4: risky high end loans in order to buy more of

3109
02:48:01,879 --> 02:48:04,680
Speaker 4: these fucking mortgages because they think they can make more

3110
02:48:04,720 --> 02:48:05,280
Speaker 4: money off of it.

3111
02:48:05,520 --> 02:48:08,920
Speaker 16: So they took out they took out loans to buy

3112
02:48:09,120 --> 02:48:12,080
Speaker 16: these unsecured securities.

3113
02:48:12,520 --> 02:48:17,280
Speaker 4: The regular ass banks were doing this, Yeah, they they

3114
02:48:17,440 --> 02:48:20,640
Speaker 4: went into debt to buy more of these shitty mortgages.

3115
02:48:20,879 --> 02:48:23,920
Speaker 16: So they took out loans to buy what are essentially

3116
02:48:24,120 --> 02:48:25,560
Speaker 16: unsecured loans.

3117
02:48:25,879 --> 02:48:27,760
Speaker 4: Yep, because I thought it would make them more money.

3118
02:48:27,840 --> 02:48:29,240
Speaker 16: But there's no money involved.

3119
02:48:33,400 --> 02:48:36,240
Speaker 4: Money It is about to get so much worse, right,

3120
02:48:36,320 --> 02:48:39,280
Speaker 4: So okay, So sticking with leveraging for a second. Right,

3121
02:48:39,920 --> 02:48:42,800
Speaker 4: you might have actually heard of something called a leveraged buyout.

3122
02:48:43,280 --> 02:48:46,560
Speaker 4: I have heard those words, and then I stopped listening. Yeah,

3123
02:48:46,600 --> 02:48:49,200
Speaker 4: so here's the thing. Leverage buyouts are something that actually

3124
02:48:49,200 --> 02:48:51,600
Speaker 4: happens in the real world that does fuck you directly,

3125
02:48:52,000 --> 02:48:54,080
Speaker 4: which is a whole bunch of companies that used to

3126
02:48:54,120 --> 02:48:58,080
Speaker 4: be like normalized companies like died because venture capital firms, you,

3127
02:48:58,120 --> 02:49:01,680
Speaker 4: by the way, are also shadow banks. Oh did this right?

3128
02:49:01,879 --> 02:49:04,200
Speaker 4: They came in tactically speaking, they did it through like

3129
02:49:04,400 --> 02:49:06,600
Speaker 4: risky bond purchases, but basically they did a bunch of

3130
02:49:06,640 --> 02:49:09,240
Speaker 4: high interest loans and then they go buy a company

3131
02:49:09,280 --> 02:49:11,080
Speaker 4: and then they like strip it for parts, and then

3132
02:49:11,120 --> 02:49:12,960
Speaker 4: they try to raise the stock price of the company.

3133
02:49:13,040 --> 02:49:16,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, and the river parts, sell everything and and get out. Right,

3134
02:49:16,480 --> 02:49:17,760
Speaker 3: that's what a leverage buyout is.

3135
02:49:18,080 --> 02:49:19,880
Speaker 4: These people are sort of are doing kind of a

3136
02:49:20,040 --> 02:49:22,640
Speaker 4: version of that, but like they're they're taking on this

3137
02:49:22,800 --> 02:49:26,080
Speaker 4: debt in order to like buy fucking shitty underwater mortgages

3138
02:49:28,280 --> 02:49:30,320
Speaker 4: because they look like they're making so much money.

3139
02:49:30,600 --> 02:49:31,200
Speaker 15: They're taking on.

3140
02:49:31,320 --> 02:49:34,240
Speaker 16: Real debt to buy hypothetical debt.

3141
02:49:34,560 --> 02:49:37,600
Speaker 4: Oh, it's about to get so much worse.

3142
02:49:38,000 --> 02:49:40,480
Speaker 16: That doesn't seem like a good idea.

3143
02:49:40,480 --> 02:49:43,280
Speaker 4: So not to get so much worse. So that's what

3144
02:49:43,480 --> 02:49:44,920
Speaker 4: like the leveraged part of that.

3145
02:49:45,240 --> 02:49:47,400
Speaker 16: I don't even know how you do that in burgers.

3146
02:49:47,760 --> 02:49:52,400
Speaker 4: I don't know. You're going into debt to like buy

3147
02:49:52,520 --> 02:49:55,120
Speaker 4: the promise of burgers in the future so you can

3148
02:49:55,200 --> 02:49:56,359
Speaker 4: sell those future burgers.

3149
02:49:56,560 --> 02:49:59,000
Speaker 16: Yeah, but burgers are real. The thing we're not talking

3150
02:49:59,000 --> 02:49:59,640
Speaker 16: about a real.

3151
02:50:00,600 --> 02:50:03,600
Speaker 4: Well technically technically speaking. Somewhere at the bottom of this

3152
02:50:03,680 --> 02:50:06,240
Speaker 4: is mortgages. However, Comma, we're about to get into a

3153
02:50:06,360 --> 02:50:08,880
Speaker 4: kind of asset where there isn't anything behind it. And

3154
02:50:09,040 --> 02:50:14,199
Speaker 4: this is where the really really truly unhinged shit starts.

3155
02:50:14,360 --> 02:50:16,760
Speaker 4: It hasn't, which is that these companies figured out a

3156
02:50:16,840 --> 02:50:20,520
Speaker 4: way to bet on whether these mortgages were going to

3157
02:50:20,560 --> 02:50:21,040
Speaker 4: fail or not.

3158
02:50:21,360 --> 02:50:23,880
Speaker 16: That's so tight MEA, I fucking love that.

3159
02:50:24,280 --> 02:50:24,880
Speaker 2: I love it.

3160
02:50:25,240 --> 02:50:28,640
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, by the way, I kindatize enough, how how

3161
02:50:28,760 --> 02:50:32,240
Speaker 4: unhinged this is the mechanism they're using to do this

3162
02:50:32,800 --> 02:50:35,760
Speaker 4: is called a credit default swap. Oh, I've heard that phrase.

3163
02:50:36,200 --> 02:50:39,039
Speaker 4: This was supposed to be how they did insurance. Their

3164
02:50:39,120 --> 02:50:41,920
Speaker 4: mechanism for doing insurance on all of these insane loans

3165
02:50:41,920 --> 02:50:45,560
Speaker 4: they were doing was originally like Okay, I'm gonna you're

3166
02:50:45,840 --> 02:50:47,640
Speaker 4: don't know, so you have a you have a bank, right,

3167
02:50:47,720 --> 02:50:50,320
Speaker 4: the bank has given out a risky loan. So this

3168
02:50:50,480 --> 02:50:52,640
Speaker 4: bank goes to another bank they shouldn't do that, and

3169
02:50:52,720 --> 02:50:55,640
Speaker 4: they say, hey, if this person actually pays the loan back,

3170
02:50:55,720 --> 02:50:56,600
Speaker 4: I will pay you money.

3171
02:50:57,120 --> 02:50:58,880
Speaker 16: Okay, So the other so the other bank is like

3172
02:50:59,160 --> 02:50:59,879
Speaker 16: taking a gamble.

3173
02:51:00,560 --> 02:51:03,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, So the other bank that's giving out the loan

3174
02:51:04,080 --> 02:51:06,760
Speaker 4: right gets money if the loan goes under. So in

3175
02:51:06,879 --> 02:51:09,480
Speaker 4: theory they're sort of like insured against the risk. They

3176
02:51:09,520 --> 02:51:11,800
Speaker 4: call it like hedging. They're like so like like so

3177
02:51:11,920 --> 02:51:14,360
Speaker 4: theoretically it's less bad from them because now even if

3178
02:51:14,400 --> 02:51:16,320
Speaker 4: the loan goes under, they still get money back from

3179
02:51:16,360 --> 02:51:20,039
Speaker 4: that other bank. So the other bank is just a bookie. Yeah,

3180
02:51:20,480 --> 02:51:22,800
Speaker 4: and the other bank is betting that they are going

3181
02:51:22,920 --> 02:51:26,440
Speaker 4: to get it. So then and if the loan does

3182
02:51:26,520 --> 02:51:28,760
Speaker 4: get paid, then that bank makes money. And this is

3183
02:51:28,879 --> 02:51:30,760
Speaker 4: legal for everyone to do. Yep.

3184
02:51:31,320 --> 02:51:32,879
Speaker 16: This is real banking or shadow bank.

3185
02:51:33,000 --> 02:51:38,000
Speaker 4: This is real bank didn't know this is technically actually no,

3186
02:51:38,240 --> 02:51:41,480
Speaker 4: this is actually both both of them do this. Technically speaking,

3187
02:51:41,600 --> 02:51:44,280
Speaker 4: the instrument like like the actual like credit default swap

3188
02:51:44,400 --> 02:51:46,120
Speaker 4: or whatever, is made by the shadow banks, but then

3189
02:51:46,120 --> 02:51:47,680
Speaker 4: they're brought by the regular banks.

3190
02:51:47,800 --> 02:51:50,240
Speaker 16: I'm started to think that the bank starts the shadow

3191
02:51:50,280 --> 02:51:53,000
Speaker 16: banks and then all of this is just fake and bad.

3192
02:51:53,600 --> 02:51:53,640
Speaker 5: Like.

3193
02:51:53,840 --> 02:51:56,520
Speaker 4: So here's the thing about these systems, right, is that,

3194
02:51:56,600 --> 02:51:58,600
Speaker 4: like a lot of the original literature on it was

3195
02:51:58,600 --> 02:52:01,360
Speaker 4: considering them separate. But it's like no, like the regular

3196
02:52:01,440 --> 02:52:03,520
Speaker 4: banks are making their own shadow banks do these things.

3197
02:52:03,560 --> 02:52:06,240
Speaker 4: They're all involved in these assets. They're also investing in

3198
02:52:06,400 --> 02:52:08,800
Speaker 4: the shadow banks, which is the problem we're having right now.

3199
02:52:09,080 --> 02:52:10,280
Speaker 4: It's like it's the same guy.

3200
02:52:10,400 --> 02:52:12,320
Speaker 16: He just like turns his chair around at his desk

3201
02:52:12,400 --> 02:52:14,000
Speaker 16: and he's like, now I'm shadow bank Todd.

3202
02:52:14,240 --> 02:52:18,080
Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, and sometimes it's that sometimes there legitimately is

3203
02:52:18,240 --> 02:52:20,440
Speaker 4: just other entities they work with, but yeah.

3204
02:52:20,240 --> 02:52:22,959
Speaker 16: But there's still it's still a bank engaging. So it's like, oh,

3205
02:52:23,000 --> 02:52:25,160
Speaker 16: these are non banking practices, yeah, but the bank is

3206
02:52:25,200 --> 02:52:26,039
Speaker 16: doing it well.

3207
02:52:26,080 --> 02:52:28,080
Speaker 4: But here's the thing. The important part for that though,

3208
02:52:28,160 --> 02:52:29,920
Speaker 4: is that like the non bank also can do this

3209
02:52:30,040 --> 02:52:33,680
Speaker 4: with other non banks even better even yeah, right, I.

3210
02:52:33,720 --> 02:52:35,600
Speaker 16: Just feel like once we're once we're talking about shadow banking,

3211
02:52:35,640 --> 02:52:37,800
Speaker 16: like the real bank should not be in the room,

3212
02:52:38,200 --> 02:52:40,959
Speaker 16: Like go home, Wells Fargo, you don't belong here, you're drunk.

3213
02:52:41,240 --> 02:52:43,920
Speaker 4: No, But like they're funding all of this, right, If the.

3214
02:52:43,959 --> 02:52:45,840
Speaker 16: Real bank is involved with the shadow banking, that means

3215
02:52:45,879 --> 02:52:47,840
Speaker 16: like I can't opt out of being involved in this

3216
02:52:48,240 --> 02:52:49,360
Speaker 16: because they get my money.

3217
02:52:50,040 --> 02:52:51,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know what we were talking about that at

3218
02:52:51,760 --> 02:52:53,640
Speaker 4: the top that like so some of these like bank

3219
02:52:53,720 --> 02:52:55,600
Speaker 4: banks had to like stop their withdrawals. Oh yeah, one

3220
02:52:55,640 --> 02:52:57,680
Speaker 4: of those, by the way, was JP Morgan. But that's

3221
02:52:57,680 --> 02:53:00,720
Speaker 4: a real bank, Yep. They're involved in the banking shit,

3222
02:53:01,160 --> 02:53:04,600
Speaker 4: so they are exposed to when they're like fucking seven

3223
02:53:04,680 --> 02:53:07,120
Speaker 4: hundred million dollar loan to like a fucking actually went home.

3224
02:53:07,120 --> 02:53:09,119
Speaker 4: Which one was the seven hundred million dollar I think

3225
02:53:09,160 --> 02:53:11,160
Speaker 4: a seven hundred million dollar loan that went under was

3226
02:53:11,200 --> 02:53:15,119
Speaker 4: the one that was to a subprime auto loan company.

3227
02:53:15,600 --> 02:53:18,720
Speaker 4: That's a bad investment. It's why it's so evil.

3228
02:53:19,320 --> 02:53:22,480
Speaker 16: So why am I trusting all of my money that

3229
02:53:22,560 --> 02:53:24,640
Speaker 16: I have in this world? I'm letting this guy hold

3230
02:53:24,680 --> 02:53:27,119
Speaker 16: on to it who's obviously not good with fucking money.

3231
02:53:28,040 --> 02:53:31,360
Speaker 4: Well, because the fdi C is ensuring it. Why are

3232
02:53:31,440 --> 02:53:32,080
Speaker 4: you in charge of it?

3233
02:53:32,200 --> 02:53:33,920
Speaker 16: Why are you in charge of having the money? You

3234
02:53:34,000 --> 02:53:36,920
Speaker 16: obviously don't make great financial decisions because you invested seven

3235
02:53:37,000 --> 02:53:39,360
Speaker 16: hundred million dollars in subprime auto loans.

3236
02:53:40,800 --> 02:53:43,480
Speaker 4: So, Mollie, this is the this is the point where

3237
02:53:44,040 --> 02:53:46,440
Speaker 4: we need to bring debt the first five thousand years

3238
02:53:46,520 --> 02:53:48,520
Speaker 4: back into this and emphasize the extent to which the

3239
02:53:48,560 --> 02:53:51,800
Speaker 4: financial class has always been deeply connected to the military,

3240
02:53:52,240 --> 02:53:55,280
Speaker 4: and why has always been deconnected to war financing. I'm

3241
02:53:55,320 --> 02:53:58,760
Speaker 4: starting to realize that this is all very bad. It's

3242
02:53:58,959 --> 02:54:01,000
Speaker 4: very bad, it's all fair, and this is this is

3243
02:54:01,080 --> 02:54:04,200
Speaker 4: to some extent why right Like part part of what

3244
02:54:04,360 --> 02:54:08,120
Speaker 4: right wing conspiracism about the financial system is is that

3245
02:54:08,280 --> 02:54:10,800
Speaker 4: like these people are like like the right wingers, like

3246
02:54:10,840 --> 02:54:13,600
Speaker 4: these people are there's like a baseline level of anti semitism,

3247
02:54:13,720 --> 02:54:15,720
Speaker 4: like in the US right because it is a is

3248
02:54:15,760 --> 02:54:19,000
Speaker 4: a Christian society that is just like what fucking happens there?

3249
02:54:19,440 --> 02:54:22,879
Speaker 4: And these people are like, Okay, we can channel all

3250
02:54:23,000 --> 02:54:26,040
Speaker 4: of the anger at like, oh my god, by fucking

3251
02:54:26,120 --> 02:54:29,440
Speaker 4: house got stolen by the bank because because they were

3252
02:54:29,520 --> 02:54:30,760
Speaker 4: betting on the mortgage to.

3253
02:54:30,760 --> 02:54:33,680
Speaker 16: Fail, and I still understand why that's legal.

3254
02:54:34,480 --> 02:54:34,640
Speaker 10: Yeah.

3255
02:54:34,760 --> 02:54:36,760
Speaker 4: Well, all these right wing conspiracits do is they look

3256
02:54:36,800 --> 02:54:38,000
Speaker 4: at that shit and they go, oh, well it was

3257
02:54:38,040 --> 02:54:40,360
Speaker 4: the Jews, and it's like but no, like fuck off,

3258
02:54:40,680 --> 02:54:42,360
Speaker 4: like these are all No, it was the band and

3259
02:54:42,600 --> 02:54:44,119
Speaker 4: the other thing. And this is actually a really important

3260
02:54:44,120 --> 02:54:46,280
Speaker 4: thing that's not well understood here is that like the

3261
02:54:46,400 --> 02:54:48,840
Speaker 4: actual people who run these fucking banks and the people

3262
02:54:48,840 --> 02:54:51,760
Speaker 4: who work at them are all fucking white Christian dipshits.

3263
02:54:52,240 --> 02:54:54,840
Speaker 4: This is like a really really like persistent issue that

3264
02:54:54,920 --> 02:54:57,280
Speaker 4: everyone fucking has, which is that like one of one

3265
02:54:57,320 --> 02:54:59,720
Speaker 4: of the great successes of anti Semitism was like creating

3266
02:54:59,800 --> 02:55:02,520
Speaker 4: the image of the banker as a Jewish person. And no,

3267
02:55:03,040 --> 02:55:05,320
Speaker 4: they're not the bait, Like I fucking went to school

3268
02:55:05,320 --> 02:55:06,960
Speaker 4: with these people. They're all a bunch of fucking white

3269
02:55:07,040 --> 02:55:09,680
Speaker 4: frat bros. They're fucking white Christian frat ros. Oh right,

3270
02:55:09,720 --> 02:55:12,320
Speaker 4: you University of Chicago, you have a degree in economics

3271
02:55:12,360 --> 02:55:14,560
Speaker 4: in the University of Chicago. No, facing, I have an

3272
02:55:14,600 --> 02:55:19,280
Speaker 4: anthropology degree, Thank you very much. I took a not

3273
02:55:19,400 --> 02:55:22,000
Speaker 4: a fucking fake degree like the stupid econ bullshit.

3274
02:55:21,720 --> 02:55:25,560
Speaker 16: ID say that's actually so evil to study economics. It's Chicago,

3275
02:55:25,600 --> 02:55:27,400
Speaker 16: you probably met some of the most evil people.

3276
02:55:28,000 --> 02:55:30,480
Speaker 4: Armed I was just like in a dorm with them,

3277
02:55:31,160 --> 02:55:33,080
Speaker 4: so you saw that I know all these people. Yeah,

3278
02:55:33,120 --> 02:55:35,240
Speaker 4: and like it is not it is not a bunch

3279
02:55:35,280 --> 02:55:37,560
Speaker 4: of Jewish people. It's it's a bunch of Christian frat bros.

3280
02:55:37,879 --> 02:55:39,800
Speaker 4: Like that's like the thing that's actually going on. There's

3281
02:55:39,800 --> 02:55:42,640
Speaker 4: actually a whole One day I will write Behind the

3282
02:55:42,680 --> 02:55:46,320
Speaker 4: Basket's episode about leverage buyouts and about how like there

3283
02:55:46,440 --> 02:55:48,600
Speaker 4: was like a Jewish guy who kind of like like

3284
02:55:49,360 --> 02:55:51,920
Speaker 4: did a lot of the inventing stuff, but him breaking

3285
02:55:52,040 --> 02:55:54,400
Speaker 4: into the banking thing was like a whole thing because

3286
02:55:54,400 --> 02:55:56,200
Speaker 4: there was so much anti Semitism because all of the

3287
02:55:56,240 --> 02:55:59,000
Speaker 4: banking sector was run by all of the fucking like

3288
02:55:59,600 --> 02:56:07,040
Speaker 4: weird dipshit like CIA, like like wasp motherfuckers. I mean,

3289
02:56:07,080 --> 02:56:09,879
Speaker 4: the Mormons have a huge hedge fund. Yep, yep, yep,

3290
02:56:09,959 --> 02:56:10,560
Speaker 4: yep yep.

3291
02:56:10,640 --> 02:56:12,160
Speaker 16: Yeah, so like the what I say, I read an

3292
02:56:12,200 --> 02:56:13,880
Speaker 16: article about it, the hedge fund, that the Mormons operate

3293
02:56:14,000 --> 02:56:16,800
Speaker 16: like they have their like best and brightest finance bros.

3294
02:56:16,879 --> 02:56:19,000
Speaker 16: Like you know, Mormons do their to your mission. If

3295
02:56:19,040 --> 02:56:22,000
Speaker 16: you're really good at finance your mission that you don't

3296
02:56:22,000 --> 02:56:23,600
Speaker 16: have to go to South America and like tell people

3297
02:56:23,600 --> 02:56:25,040
Speaker 16: about the Book of Mormon. You can work at the

3298
02:56:25,080 --> 02:56:26,080
Speaker 16: hedge fund as your mission.

3299
02:56:26,480 --> 02:56:29,360
Speaker 4: It's a nightmare. I'm doing a hedge funds for God. Yep.

3300
02:56:29,440 --> 02:56:34,040
Speaker 4: That's a SATs shadow bank, by the way, Yep, it's great.

3301
02:56:34,720 --> 02:56:38,520
Speaker 4: So okay, okay, coming back to this again. Right, so

3302
02:56:38,640 --> 02:56:40,800
Speaker 4: we're talking about like what what causes two thousand and

3303
02:56:40,800 --> 02:56:43,080
Speaker 4: eight and how do these shadow banks like do this?

3304
02:56:43,800 --> 02:56:46,800
Speaker 4: And the answer is that they've turned all of these

3305
02:56:46,879 --> 02:56:50,760
Speaker 4: mortgages into these like fake securities then they can trade, right,

3306
02:56:51,520 --> 02:56:55,080
Speaker 4: they package them all together, and they find out something

3307
02:56:55,160 --> 02:56:57,360
Speaker 4: really crucial, which is that if they throw a bunch

3308
02:56:57,440 --> 02:56:59,360
Speaker 4: of loans that they obviously know are going to fail

3309
02:56:59,400 --> 02:57:02,040
Speaker 4: together and send them to a regulatory agency. And by

3310
02:57:02,040 --> 02:57:04,120
Speaker 4: the way, all of these like bonds that they're issuing

3311
02:57:04,200 --> 02:57:06,560
Speaker 4: have like grades based on supposed to be like how

3312
02:57:06,600 --> 02:57:09,600
Speaker 4: safe they are, And they figure out yeah, and they

3313
02:57:09,680 --> 02:57:11,560
Speaker 4: figure out that they can send a bunch of really

3314
02:57:11,600 --> 02:57:14,280
Speaker 4: shitty bonds. But if they package enough shitty bonds together,

3315
02:57:14,320 --> 02:57:17,040
Speaker 4: they could send them to the regulators and the regulators

3316
02:57:17,080 --> 02:57:19,480
Speaker 4: would have would evaluate some of them as being good,

3317
02:57:19,840 --> 02:57:21,600
Speaker 4: and then you could sell the good ones to your

3318
02:57:21,720 --> 02:57:24,800
Speaker 4: pension fund because I thought it was a good bond

3319
02:57:26,920 --> 02:57:30,360
Speaker 4: and it made money. That's just lying and then and

3320
02:57:30,480 --> 02:57:33,680
Speaker 4: then yes, and yes and then and then behind the scenes, right,

3321
02:57:33,920 --> 02:57:36,000
Speaker 4: all of these fucking companies, all these shadow banks, all

3322
02:57:36,040 --> 02:57:39,119
Speaker 4: the regular banks, they're all doing these. They're all doing

3323
02:57:39,200 --> 02:57:41,560
Speaker 4: these credit default swaps, right, so they're all betting on

3324
02:57:41,720 --> 02:57:43,000
Speaker 4: which ones of these are going to fail.

3325
02:57:43,120 --> 02:57:45,280
Speaker 16: I'm putting all of these boys in time out.

3326
02:57:45,440 --> 02:57:47,039
Speaker 4: I'm gonna put them in the bottom of a tad

3327
02:57:47,400 --> 02:57:50,440
Speaker 4: so evil. And and they they start, they start doing these,

3328
02:57:50,560 --> 02:57:53,520
Speaker 4: making these like even more complicated instruments right where, Now

3329
02:57:54,240 --> 02:57:56,320
Speaker 4: what they're what they're selling to you isn't just the

3330
02:57:56,400 --> 02:57:59,480
Speaker 4: package of mortgages. They're also selling you the credit default

3331
02:57:59,520 --> 02:58:02,760
Speaker 4: swaps with the loan. So theoretically, what's happening is like

3332
02:58:02,800 --> 02:58:05,520
Speaker 4: they've created an instrument that, regardless of what happens to

3333
02:58:05,600 --> 02:58:08,520
Speaker 4: the loan, you make money. That's not how anything works. No,

3334
02:58:08,879 --> 02:58:12,199
Speaker 4: it's bullshit. It's so obviously bullshit.

3335
02:58:12,520 --> 02:58:14,880
Speaker 16: I made up this fake thing where no matter what happens,

3336
02:58:14,959 --> 02:58:15,560
Speaker 16: I get rich.

3337
02:58:15,760 --> 02:58:18,280
Speaker 4: That's cool. I would love to do that. Yeah, And

3338
02:58:18,400 --> 02:58:20,240
Speaker 4: nobody was like wait, well, I mean sometimes a couple

3339
02:58:20,240 --> 02:58:22,360
Speaker 4: of people were, but like, like people didn't just be

3340
02:58:22,560 --> 02:58:24,920
Speaker 4: like wait, hold on, no, obviously, you can't make an

3341
02:58:24,959 --> 02:58:28,400
Speaker 4: asset that makes money regardless of whether the thing fails

3342
02:58:28,480 --> 02:58:31,439
Speaker 4: or not. I invented a money machine, Like that's fucking ridiculous.

3343
02:58:31,600 --> 02:58:33,680
Speaker 4: And then eventually, yeah, it was like, no, they ran

3344
02:58:33,720 --> 02:58:34,879
Speaker 4: out of fucking mortgages.

3345
02:58:35,480 --> 02:58:35,640
Speaker 6: You know.

3346
02:58:36,160 --> 02:58:37,680
Speaker 4: One of the ways that the blame for this was

3347
02:58:37,720 --> 02:58:41,120
Speaker 4: deflected onto regular people was that they blamed the banks

3348
02:58:41,480 --> 02:58:43,360
Speaker 4: or like they blamed regular people for like not being

3349
02:58:43,360 --> 02:58:45,560
Speaker 4: able to pay the mortgages. But the thing is, by

3350
02:58:45,600 --> 02:58:47,000
Speaker 4: the time you get to the point where you're like

3351
02:58:47,200 --> 02:58:50,160
Speaker 4: packaging all that, you're betting on the mortgages. Right, if

3352
02:58:50,200 --> 02:58:52,840
Speaker 4: you're a bank, even if you're the regular bank, you

3353
02:58:52,879 --> 02:58:55,640
Speaker 4: don't make money off of like someone paying their mortgage back.

3354
02:58:55,959 --> 02:59:00,000
Speaker 4: You make money on betting on the mortgages. So you're incentive.

3355
02:59:00,240 --> 02:59:02,720
Speaker 4: So just keep giving out loans you know won't happen

3356
02:59:02,760 --> 02:59:04,760
Speaker 4: because you can sell those loans off to some other

3357
02:59:04,840 --> 02:59:06,880
Speaker 4: dipshit and then you and then you can bet on

3358
02:59:07,000 --> 02:59:08,680
Speaker 4: those loans that they're going to fail and you can

3359
02:59:08,760 --> 02:59:10,840
Speaker 4: make money. And that's how you make your money because you're.

3360
02:59:10,879 --> 02:59:14,680
Speaker 16: You're not a bank anymore, you're a bookie who's cheating.

3361
02:59:15,520 --> 02:59:19,480
Speaker 4: Yep. I don't think that's good Mia. No, this was

3362
02:59:19,520 --> 02:59:23,280
Speaker 4: the entire fucking financial system. We just let these people

3363
02:59:23,320 --> 02:59:24,959
Speaker 4: stay in power, and.

3364
02:59:25,040 --> 02:59:27,400
Speaker 16: I'm just supposed to just continue living my life like this.

3365
02:59:28,520 --> 02:59:31,960
Speaker 4: I don't know, like looking at this and then and

3366
02:59:32,000 --> 02:59:33,959
Speaker 4: then learning that all of these people got fucking bailed

3367
02:59:34,000 --> 02:59:35,640
Speaker 4: up by the government and none of them went to prison.

3368
02:59:35,879 --> 02:59:39,080
Speaker 4: And do they know they're cheating liars who are faking

3369
02:59:39,120 --> 02:59:39,760
Speaker 4: and making it up?

3370
02:59:39,840 --> 02:59:41,520
Speaker 16: Or are they like so high on their own supply

3371
02:59:41,640 --> 02:59:43,120
Speaker 16: they're like they're like, no, bro, no, but this is

3372
02:59:43,120 --> 02:59:43,680
Speaker 16: totally gonna work.

3373
02:59:43,680 --> 02:59:45,960
Speaker 4: It's totally gonna work. Well, here's the thing. Some of

3374
02:59:46,080 --> 02:59:49,120
Speaker 4: them know and some of them don't, because some of

3375
02:59:49,200 --> 02:59:51,680
Speaker 4: them believe that this is cool. Yeah, Like some some

3376
02:59:51,800 --> 02:59:53,680
Speaker 4: of them legitimately thought that this was just going to

3377
02:59:53,760 --> 02:59:54,279
Speaker 4: work forever.

3378
02:59:54,680 --> 02:59:57,600
Speaker 16: Like do they believe they're negative money backed by other

3379
02:59:57,720 --> 03:00:00,280
Speaker 16: fake money backed by the idea of promise? Is a

3380
03:00:00,320 --> 03:00:01,879
Speaker 16: fake money? They think that's money?

3381
03:00:02,040 --> 03:00:05,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, yep, Well, thought was gonna work. It's not. It's not. Nope,

3382
03:00:05,760 --> 03:00:07,360
Speaker 4: And it turned out to not be any fucking money,

3383
03:00:07,360 --> 03:00:11,520
Speaker 4: and it blew up again, like entire countries, countries were

3384
03:00:11,560 --> 03:00:14,800
Speaker 4: buying these, they went bankrupt, So like this.

3385
03:00:15,040 --> 03:00:19,680
Speaker 16: Is less real than a board ape, nft, And that's

3386
03:00:19,879 --> 03:00:20,959
Speaker 16: really saying something.

3387
03:00:21,280 --> 03:00:23,800
Speaker 4: It's it's astonishing.

3388
03:00:23,320 --> 03:00:25,200
Speaker 16: Because at least the at least I can look at

3389
03:00:25,280 --> 03:00:27,080
Speaker 16: least I can look at the picture of the monkey.

3390
03:00:27,200 --> 03:00:29,280
Speaker 4: I can't look at this no, like it like you

3391
03:00:29,360 --> 03:00:31,520
Speaker 4: can't look at the bet you're making on whether and

3392
03:00:31,640 --> 03:00:34,840
Speaker 4: whether monkey go down, Like it's like like all my

3393
03:00:35,040 --> 03:00:38,680
Speaker 4: apes gone. Yeah, but it's suppressing because the entire world

3394
03:00:38,800 --> 03:00:40,360
Speaker 4: is just this. Now it's a shit the banks were

3395
03:00:40,400 --> 03:00:42,160
Speaker 4: doing where you're betting on whether mortgage would a fail,

3396
03:00:42,160 --> 03:00:44,320
Speaker 4: but now it's your betting on whether like what day

3397
03:00:44,400 --> 03:00:45,800
Speaker 4: we're going to drop a bomb on a run?

3398
03:00:46,520 --> 03:00:48,879
Speaker 16: Like nothing is real and everything is gambling.

3399
03:00:49,240 --> 03:00:52,800
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, And this is you know what what I

3400
03:00:52,800 --> 03:00:55,680
Speaker 4: would call a sort of terminal crisis stage of capitalism

3401
03:00:55,840 --> 03:00:56,520
Speaker 4: where alike.

3402
03:00:56,320 --> 03:00:59,360
Speaker 16: Because everything is so divorced from any material reality, from

3403
03:00:59,400 --> 03:00:59,959
Speaker 16: any good.

3404
03:00:59,879 --> 03:01:02,720
Speaker 4: Or service, Like there is a limit to which you

3405
03:01:02,760 --> 03:01:05,560
Speaker 4: can run an entire economy that is purely based on gambling.

3406
03:01:05,760 --> 03:01:08,200
Speaker 4: Like they're just there's a limit and we're going to

3407
03:01:08,240 --> 03:01:12,480
Speaker 4: hit it. Really, So that's God, that's gonna break, right, Yeah, yeah,

3408
03:01:12,560 --> 03:01:15,800
Speaker 4: it's going to break. It's going to break spectacularly. However, Comma,

3409
03:01:15,920 --> 03:01:18,680
Speaker 4: I do have good news for you, don't I do?

3410
03:01:19,000 --> 03:01:23,080
Speaker 4: I have good news. You now actually understand what non

3411
03:01:23,160 --> 03:01:28,080
Speaker 4: bank financial intermediation is. No, I don't. I'm gonna walk

3412
03:01:28,120 --> 03:01:31,080
Speaker 4: you through it. You actually do. So, I'm going to

3413
03:01:31,160 --> 03:01:36,119
Speaker 4: quote the IMFs definition of non bank financial intermediation. Quote

3414
03:01:36,440 --> 03:01:40,440
Speaker 4: all entities outside the regulated banking system that perform the

3415
03:01:40,600 --> 03:01:45,800
Speaker 4: core banking functions. Credit intermediation, that is taking money from

3416
03:01:45,840 --> 03:01:49,040
Speaker 4: savers and letting it to borrowers. The four key aspects

3417
03:01:49,080 --> 03:01:54,040
Speaker 4: of intermediation are maturity transformation. We know this one, right,

3418
03:01:54,360 --> 03:01:56,000
Speaker 4: This is this is what the bank does.

3419
03:01:56,000 --> 03:01:59,240
Speaker 16: Alone gets older, Yeah, yeah, you gets paid back over time.

3420
03:01:59,520 --> 03:01:59,720
Speaker 17: Yeah.

3421
03:01:59,760 --> 03:02:02,920
Speaker 4: Well it's you you turn your short term thing into

3422
03:02:03,000 --> 03:02:05,680
Speaker 4: a long term investment, or you do the opposite opposite.

3423
03:02:05,680 --> 03:02:09,560
Speaker 4: It's not good. They're both kind of a disaster, but like, yeah, yeah,

3424
03:02:09,560 --> 03:02:11,840
Speaker 4: the the other opposite is kind of how we got

3425
03:02:11,879 --> 03:02:16,280
Speaker 4: into this mess. There's liquidity transformation, which we know this too.

3426
03:02:16,400 --> 03:02:19,160
Speaker 16: It's turning money into a thing that's not money.

3427
03:02:19,120 --> 03:02:21,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, or turning not money into things you can buy

3428
03:02:21,680 --> 03:02:26,320
Speaker 4: burger with. Okay, Yeah, I got this leverage. We also

3429
03:02:26,480 --> 03:02:28,880
Speaker 4: know this, which is you go into a bunch of

3430
03:02:28,920 --> 03:02:33,760
Speaker 4: debt to buy something else. And then there's credit risk transfer,

3431
03:02:33,879 --> 03:02:35,720
Speaker 4: which we know that one too. It's the betting market.

3432
03:02:37,840 --> 03:02:41,720
Speaker 4: Were supposedly swapping the risk by both of you two

3433
03:02:41,760 --> 03:02:43,560
Speaker 4: are now betting on whether this thing is going to fail.

3434
03:02:43,800 --> 03:02:44,520
Speaker 4: So it sounds like.

3435
03:02:44,600 --> 03:02:48,400
Speaker 16: Even just like regular banking is kind of just gambling now.

3436
03:02:48,680 --> 03:02:52,120
Speaker 4: Yep, yep, yep. Well, and it's fun too, So this

3437
03:02:52,240 --> 03:02:53,640
Speaker 4: is the thing that you used to be talked about

3438
03:02:53,680 --> 03:02:56,920
Speaker 4: more and isn't now. But like most of like like

3439
03:02:57,160 --> 03:03:01,440
Speaker 4: the world's corporations are also basically this, know, like this

3440
03:03:01,480 --> 03:03:02,680
Speaker 4: has been a thing for a while. But it's like

3441
03:03:02,680 --> 03:03:04,960
Speaker 4: the auto manufacturers don't make their money off of cars.

3442
03:03:05,080 --> 03:03:06,520
Speaker 4: I mean they sort of do. They make some money

3443
03:03:06,520 --> 03:03:07,880
Speaker 4: of cars, or like most of what they make their

3444
03:03:07,920 --> 03:03:11,000
Speaker 4: money off of is like the forward finance company, which

3445
03:03:11,080 --> 03:03:13,880
Speaker 4: is like the auto loans thing. Oh and then the

3446
03:03:13,920 --> 03:03:16,320
Speaker 4: auto loans thing trades a bunch of like does all

3447
03:03:16,360 --> 03:03:18,840
Speaker 4: of this other financial bullshit to make money? So like,

3448
03:03:19,160 --> 03:03:22,200
Speaker 4: I don't think that's a good idea. That's that's what

3449
03:03:22,360 --> 03:03:23,200
Speaker 4: capitalism is.

3450
03:03:23,680 --> 03:03:28,400
Speaker 16: So everything everything is fully reliant on.

3451
03:03:28,560 --> 03:03:31,240
Speaker 4: This, like stupid, gambling, bullshit, Emperor's.

3452
03:03:30,760 --> 03:03:35,400
Speaker 16: Wearing no clothes, economy yep. And if anybody, if anybody

3453
03:03:35,480 --> 03:03:37,520
Speaker 16: points out that none of this is connected to a

3454
03:03:37,600 --> 03:03:39,680
Speaker 16: material reality, everything falls apart.

3455
03:03:40,360 --> 03:03:42,360
Speaker 4: Well, here's the thing. The thing that stoves everything for

3456
03:03:42,440 --> 03:03:44,160
Speaker 4: falling apart is that the one thing you can do

3457
03:03:44,320 --> 03:03:46,160
Speaker 4: with your money is turn it into gun.

3458
03:03:46,640 --> 03:03:49,600
Speaker 3: Now I'm listening, and that's what stops of falling apart, right,

3459
03:03:49,680 --> 03:03:52,160
Speaker 3: because now I'm listening. And this is also a sort

3460
03:03:52,200 --> 03:03:52,880
Speaker 3: of graverism.

3461
03:03:52,920 --> 03:03:55,440
Speaker 4: But it's like behind every bank is a man with

3462
03:03:55,520 --> 03:03:58,880
Speaker 4: a gun, because the reason that this money is even

3463
03:03:59,000 --> 03:04:02,640
Speaker 4: sort of real is that the bank can like like

3464
03:04:02,720 --> 03:04:05,840
Speaker 4: the police will come get you, right, like men with

3465
03:04:06,000 --> 03:04:08,440
Speaker 4: guns will appear and coerce you to pay shit.

3466
03:04:08,879 --> 03:04:12,400
Speaker 16: Right, But what if what if instead of burger we

3467
03:04:13,000 --> 03:04:14,120
Speaker 16: bought gun?

3468
03:04:15,200 --> 03:04:15,400
Speaker 3: You know?

3469
03:04:15,800 --> 03:04:17,960
Speaker 4: Like this is what is broadly referred to as the

3470
03:04:18,080 --> 03:04:21,640
Speaker 4: social revolution. Is it is broadly considered a negative by

3471
03:04:21,640 --> 03:04:24,200
Speaker 4: the financial sector. It is broadly considered a positive by

3472
03:04:24,320 --> 03:04:26,880
Speaker 4: everyone the fuck else. Okay, that's not true. It's not

3473
03:04:26,879 --> 03:04:28,920
Speaker 4: consider it a positive by like, I guess the people

3474
03:04:28,920 --> 03:04:31,600
Speaker 4: who own regular businesses. And this is like this shit

3475
03:04:31,680 --> 03:04:35,240
Speaker 4: that like, you know, it was kind of less unhinged

3476
03:04:35,320 --> 03:04:37,640
Speaker 4: back then. But like if you go read the people

3477
03:04:37,720 --> 03:04:39,360
Speaker 4: who were like doing this shit in like the early

3478
03:04:39,440 --> 03:04:42,520
Speaker 4: nineteen hundreds, if you read the writing, it's all them

3479
03:04:42,680 --> 03:04:44,960
Speaker 4: being like, oh yeah, no, by the way, like a

3480
03:04:45,000 --> 03:04:47,959
Speaker 4: bunch of banks just like turned the entire Ottoman empire

3481
03:04:48,000 --> 03:04:50,560
Speaker 4: into like a debt peon, and now their entire economy

3482
03:04:50,680 --> 03:04:53,080
Speaker 4: is just dedicated to paying off these fucking loans. And

3483
03:04:53,200 --> 03:04:56,440
Speaker 4: this is like hideously fucking evil, Like they're all complaining

3484
03:04:56,480 --> 03:04:57,640
Speaker 4: about the same shit.

3485
03:04:57,640 --> 03:05:00,640
Speaker 16: And the important lesson we learned from that, The important

3486
03:05:00,680 --> 03:05:03,280
Speaker 16: lesson we learned from that was to do it more

3487
03:05:03,560 --> 03:05:08,160
Speaker 16: more oh yeah, yeah yeah, to invent increasingly more complicated

3488
03:05:08,240 --> 03:05:09,440
Speaker 16: ways of doing that.

3489
03:05:10,080 --> 03:05:10,280
Speaker 18: Yeah.

3490
03:05:10,440 --> 03:05:13,560
Speaker 4: And like this this is why the term third world

3491
03:05:13,680 --> 03:05:16,840
Speaker 4: is a slur, because because instead of being a political movement,

3492
03:05:16,879 --> 03:05:19,120
Speaker 4: because those the countries in the political movement that was

3493
03:05:19,160 --> 03:05:21,920
Speaker 4: called the Third World movement, all of their economies got

3494
03:05:21,959 --> 03:05:25,200
Speaker 4: fucking annihilated because they had these like loans whose interest

3495
03:05:25,280 --> 03:05:27,880
Speaker 4: rate could change, and the US jacked up all the

3496
03:05:27,959 --> 03:05:31,360
Speaker 4: interest rates and so suddenly their loans were like like

3497
03:05:31,520 --> 03:05:33,360
Speaker 4: the amount you had to like pay on the loans

3498
03:05:33,600 --> 03:05:36,000
Speaker 4: it went from like twenty percent or something to like

3499
03:05:36,480 --> 03:05:38,720
Speaker 4: fifty or one hundred or some shit, and you know,

3500
03:05:38,800 --> 03:05:40,959
Speaker 4: and like in these countries have never recovered, like Nigeria

3501
03:05:41,040 --> 03:05:44,520
Speaker 4: has never really economically recovered from the shit that happened

3502
03:05:44,560 --> 03:05:46,120
Speaker 4: to them. This this is why a whole bunch of

3503
03:05:46,200 --> 03:05:48,400
Speaker 4: Latin America is like this too, Like it was, like

3504
03:05:48,520 --> 03:05:50,879
Speaker 4: why there's so much sort of like writing systemic poverty

3505
03:05:51,080 --> 03:05:55,520
Speaker 4: is that the economies were entirely transformed into machines to

3506
03:05:55,640 --> 03:05:58,320
Speaker 4: like pay back these fucking debts taken out by these dictators.

3507
03:05:59,160 --> 03:06:01,840
Speaker 4: This is the whole fucking economy now. And you know,

3508
03:06:02,040 --> 03:06:05,519
Speaker 4: there's other shadow banks that do other kind of completely unhandshit,

3509
03:06:05,680 --> 03:06:07,840
Speaker 4: right And I've been focusing this week on like specifically

3510
03:06:07,879 --> 03:06:09,520
Speaker 4: the kind that blew up the economy in two thousand

3511
03:06:09,520 --> 03:06:13,080
Speaker 4: and eight, But there's another kind that's like blowing up

3512
03:06:13,120 --> 03:06:15,480
Speaker 4: the economy right now, which is called private credit, which

3513
03:06:15,520 --> 03:06:18,080
Speaker 4: is I mentioned this briefly earlier. But private credit is

3514
03:06:18,160 --> 03:06:22,039
Speaker 4: when these like unregulated companies that are not banks, give

3515
03:06:22,080 --> 03:06:25,880
Speaker 4: out unregulated loans with unknown terms to other companies and

3516
03:06:25,959 --> 03:06:27,720
Speaker 4: then those loans go to shit. And there's a whole

3517
03:06:27,720 --> 03:06:29,440
Speaker 4: bunch of ways that can blow up, including by the

3518
03:06:29,480 --> 03:06:31,720
Speaker 4: way these companies are funding a bunch of the AI bubble.

3519
03:06:31,959 --> 03:06:33,520
Speaker 16: Oh, and that's a great investment.

3520
03:06:33,760 --> 03:06:35,840
Speaker 4: It's great, you know, because much much like a.

3521
03:06:35,879 --> 03:06:39,200
Speaker 16: Mortgage, there's a real physical thing like a house involved, Right,

3522
03:06:39,959 --> 03:06:40,959
Speaker 16: it's not just vibes.

3523
03:06:41,360 --> 03:06:44,400
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, oh Molly, Molly, they those motherfuckers. I'm gonna

3524
03:06:44,400 --> 03:06:45,640
Speaker 4: talk about this a bit. I might have d just

3525
03:06:45,800 --> 03:06:47,440
Speaker 4: run on for this part of it too, just because

3526
03:06:47,480 --> 03:06:49,720
Speaker 4: like Ed does this all the time, but like those

3527
03:06:49,760 --> 03:06:52,879
Speaker 4: motherfuckers out there selling securities that are backed by fucking

3528
03:06:53,200 --> 03:06:58,879
Speaker 4: graphics cards, Like at least the more I can't believe

3529
03:06:58,879 --> 03:07:02,720
Speaker 4: I'm fucking saying this, but at least the mortgage backed securities,

3530
03:07:03,040 --> 03:07:05,080
Speaker 4: like there was a house you could steal to get

3531
03:07:05,080 --> 03:07:09,720
Speaker 4: your money back graphics cards. Ball, My all my apes are.

3532
03:07:11,120 --> 03:07:11,360
Speaker 3: Gone.

3533
03:07:11,480 --> 03:07:12,520
Speaker 16: All my apes are gone.

3534
03:07:13,160 --> 03:07:16,760
Speaker 4: Like there's other ones like it's it's so bad. It's

3535
03:07:16,920 --> 03:07:22,800
Speaker 4: just bad. But that's for another time because it is

3536
03:07:23,120 --> 03:07:25,440
Speaker 4: late as fuck and we are out of here.

3537
03:07:25,520 --> 03:07:25,800
Speaker 5: Mollie.

3538
03:07:25,879 --> 03:07:28,720
Speaker 4: Thank you, Thank you for sitting and enduring an hour

3539
03:07:28,920 --> 03:07:31,280
Speaker 4: of you knowing what a shadow bank is.

3540
03:07:31,360 --> 03:07:34,840
Speaker 16: Now I almost know what a bank is. I'm still

3541
03:07:34,879 --> 03:07:36,520
Speaker 16: working on the rest of it, but I think I'm

3542
03:07:36,520 --> 03:07:37,160
Speaker 16: getting closer.

3543
03:07:37,480 --> 03:07:39,800
Speaker 4: I believe in you. I think we've made for a

3544
03:07:39,879 --> 03:07:40,600
Speaker 4: progress today.

3545
03:07:41,120 --> 03:07:41,640
Speaker 5: I don't know.

3546
03:07:41,920 --> 03:07:44,000
Speaker 4: Now, now you can kind of understand what's going on.

3547
03:07:44,160 --> 03:07:48,040
Speaker 4: When this sting sector explodes again in like two weeks,

3548
03:07:48,200 --> 03:07:49,880
Speaker 4: you'll have to explain it to me again. Then I

3549
03:07:49,920 --> 03:08:11,600
Speaker 4: will be happy to Oh God, I hate these assholes Zoom.

3550
03:08:11,760 --> 03:08:14,039
Speaker 4: If you're listening to this and leaking my ship.

3551
03:08:14,000 --> 03:08:16,240
Speaker 2: Keep follow this in, than you keep follow this in.

3552
03:08:16,800 --> 03:08:18,320
Speaker 2: Keep it all in beautiful.

3553
03:08:17,959 --> 03:08:19,240
Speaker 4: Settings, beautiful stuff.

3554
03:08:19,360 --> 03:08:24,640
Speaker 2: Sufferable, it's welcome to it could happen here. Executive dysfunction, disorder,

3555
03:08:24,760 --> 03:08:25,560
Speaker 2: I for disorder.

3556
03:08:26,360 --> 03:08:28,560
Speaker 3: The weekly newscast we do that covers what's happening in

3557
03:08:28,600 --> 03:08:30,760
Speaker 3: the White House, the crumbling world of what it means.

3558
03:08:30,600 --> 03:08:35,280
Speaker 2: For you, and Sophie's simmering rage at Zoom constantly moving

3559
03:08:35,320 --> 03:08:36,080
Speaker 2: the recording button.

3560
03:08:36,240 --> 03:08:39,440
Speaker 20: Not even just Zoom, it's all the it's insufferable, all

3561
03:08:39,520 --> 03:08:43,960
Speaker 20: these goddamn platforms, but they're stupid AI features and moving

3562
03:08:44,080 --> 03:08:44,920
Speaker 20: of my settings.

3563
03:08:44,959 --> 03:08:46,880
Speaker 4: I sound like the oldest person in the world, but

3564
03:08:47,200 --> 03:08:51,400
Speaker 4: that's the record. But this, sup it, it's so annoying.

3565
03:08:51,959 --> 03:08:54,680
Speaker 2: Holy shit, everybody's pretty pissed about AI these days.

3566
03:08:54,879 --> 03:09:00,080
Speaker 20: I mean, sufferbly stupid, but stop it, stop it, And

3567
03:09:00,160 --> 03:09:02,800
Speaker 20: we have to use Microsoft for work, and every time

3568
03:09:02,840 --> 03:09:05,279
Speaker 20: I try to copy something, it asks if I want.

3569
03:09:05,160 --> 03:09:09,280
Speaker 4: To use Copilot. No, I never want to use copilot.

3570
03:09:09,640 --> 03:09:13,360
Speaker 3: Fuck off, Sophie, You're really not maximizing your productivity.

3571
03:09:14,000 --> 03:09:18,879
Speaker 20: Okay, this week we're covering in I CO eighteens now

3572
03:09:19,000 --> 03:09:21,640
Speaker 20: and no, don't do that to me.

3573
03:09:23,120 --> 03:09:27,720
Speaker 4: Clavicular a shit, stop it, stop it. Okay, I'm going

3574
03:09:27,760 --> 03:09:28,920
Speaker 4: away now to your jobs.

3575
03:09:29,120 --> 03:09:29,920
Speaker 2: What are our jobs?

3576
03:09:30,040 --> 03:09:32,959
Speaker 4: Really? You're not going to join in? Oh I'm here,

3577
03:09:33,040 --> 03:09:34,000
Speaker 4: I'm always here.

3578
03:09:34,560 --> 03:09:38,800
Speaker 3: That's Sophie Lichterman, also Mia Wong, Robert Evans, I'm Garrison Davis.

3579
03:09:38,920 --> 03:09:39,280
Speaker 2: That's right.

3580
03:09:39,560 --> 03:09:42,240
Speaker 3: This episode recovering the week of March eighteen to March

3581
03:09:42,320 --> 03:09:46,720
Speaker 3: twenty fifth. Speaking of AI, open ai is announced they

3582
03:09:46,720 --> 03:09:51,280
Speaker 3: are shutting down their AI generated video apps Sora as

3583
03:09:51,320 --> 03:09:55,160
Speaker 3: a results, the Disney deal has fell through. Disney's no

3584
03:09:55,280 --> 03:09:57,680
Speaker 3: longer going through with the one billion dollar investment and

3585
03:09:57,920 --> 03:09:59,680
Speaker 3: character licensing deal with open Ai.

3586
03:10:00,040 --> 03:10:00,240
Speaker 4: Oh no.

3587
03:10:00,280 --> 03:10:04,080
Speaker 3: According to the Hollywood Reporter, I know our audience is

3588
03:10:04,120 --> 03:10:05,879
Speaker 3: full of a lot of big Sora ads, and I'm

3589
03:10:05,879 --> 03:10:07,199
Speaker 3: sure this is some tough news.

3590
03:10:07,640 --> 03:10:09,360
Speaker 2: The Soura community is taking hits.

3591
03:10:09,600 --> 03:10:12,680
Speaker 4: So yeah, it's okay. You can still play Sora in

3592
03:10:12,840 --> 03:10:15,879
Speaker 4: Smash Ultimate. You can recover I believe in you want.

3593
03:10:16,000 --> 03:10:17,920
Speaker 2: There's a video game character named Sora too.

3594
03:10:18,040 --> 03:10:20,960
Speaker 4: Huh yeah, the key Blade. The key Blade will still

3595
03:10:21,000 --> 03:10:21,320
Speaker 4: be there.

3596
03:10:21,760 --> 03:10:23,519
Speaker 2: I didn't. I didn't get into those games.

3597
03:10:23,680 --> 03:10:27,119
Speaker 4: Actually lyricously, Also, it also a Disney franchise, also licensed

3598
03:10:27,160 --> 03:10:27,640
Speaker 4: to Disney.

3599
03:10:27,720 --> 03:10:31,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, great, great stuff. Well, I found this very funny

3600
03:10:32,000 --> 03:10:35,000
Speaker 2: in part because like, when Sora came out, there was

3601
03:10:35,040 --> 03:10:37,200
Speaker 2: this like burst of enthusiasm for like, soon we'll just

3602
03:10:37,280 --> 03:10:40,800
Speaker 2: be generating our own movies and TV. You won't need Hollywood.

3603
03:10:41,440 --> 03:10:43,200
Speaker 2: But then it turned out that you can't actually like

3604
03:10:43,640 --> 03:10:46,240
Speaker 2: do like even if you want to make stuff with Sora,

3605
03:10:46,400 --> 03:10:48,520
Speaker 2: like even if you wanted to include like clips of

3606
03:10:48,560 --> 03:10:51,240
Speaker 2: it to like help augment other films you were making.

3607
03:10:51,280 --> 03:10:52,800
Speaker 2: And there were a couple of filmmakers who tried to

3608
03:10:52,879 --> 03:10:56,040
Speaker 2: do this. You can summon critical ways where they were like, oh, well,

3609
03:10:56,200 --> 03:10:58,640
Speaker 2: you know, I can use like pieces of Soora generated

3610
03:10:58,720 --> 03:11:00,760
Speaker 2: video to like illustrate at this point I want to

3611
03:11:00,800 --> 03:11:03,480
Speaker 2: about AI. Well, you couldn't actually use like Sora footage

3612
03:11:03,520 --> 03:11:06,320
Speaker 2: in anything that you wanted to like sell to Netflix

3613
03:11:06,480 --> 03:11:09,640
Speaker 2: or Amazon or like whoever put in a theater, because

3614
03:11:09,680 --> 03:11:12,800
Speaker 2: like the terms of use basically did not allow it

3615
03:11:13,120 --> 03:11:15,840
Speaker 2: because of how much risk you were at of getting

3616
03:11:16,240 --> 03:11:19,960
Speaker 2: sued for, you know, utilizing other people's shit content other

3617
03:11:20,040 --> 03:11:23,640
Speaker 2: people made. Open Ai was not willing to indemnify the users.

3618
03:11:24,000 --> 03:11:27,920
Speaker 2: Adobe has a similar like slop ai video generation machine

3619
03:11:27,959 --> 03:11:31,480
Speaker 2: that does indemnify like users of the content they make,

3620
03:11:31,560 --> 03:11:33,680
Speaker 2: and that is still going. Yeah, so I think that's

3621
03:11:34,000 --> 03:11:35,640
Speaker 2: was kind of like one of the key issues here

3622
03:11:35,720 --> 03:11:38,800
Speaker 2: is just that, like you can't actually do anything with

3623
03:11:39,000 --> 03:11:40,000
Speaker 2: your Sora eclips.

3624
03:11:40,760 --> 03:11:43,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, this doesn't mean it's gonna lead to

3625
03:11:43,280 --> 03:11:48,640
Speaker 3: the end of AI generated video on social media. Lord, No, unfortunately, No,

3626
03:11:49,240 --> 03:11:51,440
Speaker 3: this is a movement that open air is making towards

3627
03:11:51,520 --> 03:11:54,960
Speaker 3: business to business sales and away from this direct to

3628
03:11:55,040 --> 03:11:58,600
Speaker 3: consumer application. It's still an interesting move. The fact that

3629
03:11:59,000 --> 03:12:03,279
Speaker 3: Disney's breaking off the deal also interesting. Its exact gramifications

3630
03:12:03,400 --> 03:12:05,760
Speaker 3: for open ai and like a generated video in the

3631
03:12:05,800 --> 03:12:07,640
Speaker 3: long run still unclear.

3632
03:12:08,360 --> 03:12:10,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, I also just want to mention that, like, obviously,

3633
03:12:10,360 --> 03:12:12,160
Speaker 4: the other reason they're doing this is that this stuff

3634
03:12:12,240 --> 03:12:15,240
Speaker 4: is hideously expensive, Like, yeah, a lot of money to

3635
03:12:15,720 --> 03:12:19,240
Speaker 4: generate this stuff onfathomable amounts of money are just being

3636
03:12:19,320 --> 03:12:23,640
Speaker 4: lit on fire. Listen to everything ever written by our

3637
03:12:23,720 --> 03:12:26,400
Speaker 4: friends and colleague ed Zytron. If you want to know

3638
03:12:26,560 --> 03:12:29,680
Speaker 4: how much money is being lit on fire by this bullshit?

3639
03:12:29,840 --> 03:12:32,600
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah.

3640
03:12:33,000 --> 03:12:35,800
Speaker 3: A few other small news stories. The US Army has

3641
03:12:35,920 --> 03:12:40,080
Speaker 3: raised its maximum enlistment age to forty two, and the

3642
03:12:40,200 --> 03:12:44,039
Speaker 3: Pentagon is planning to maintain National Guard presence in Washington,

3643
03:12:44,120 --> 03:12:48,120
Speaker 3: d C. Through the entirety of Trump's second term. In

3644
03:12:48,200 --> 03:12:51,720
Speaker 3: a special election Tuesday night, the Dems flipped Trump's own

3645
03:12:52,040 --> 03:12:55,760
Speaker 3: state house district in Florida Palm Beach County. Trump won

3646
03:12:55,800 --> 03:12:58,959
Speaker 3: this district by eleven points in the twenty twenty four election.

3647
03:12:59,320 --> 03:13:03,680
Speaker 3: This Tuesday, Democrat Emily Gregory won by two points, nearly

3648
03:13:03,760 --> 03:13:05,360
Speaker 3: a fourteen point swing.

3649
03:13:05,680 --> 03:13:07,680
Speaker 4: Are we going to point out how he voted in that.

3650
03:13:07,720 --> 03:13:10,920
Speaker 3: Election vote by mail? But it's okay because the Florida

3651
03:13:11,000 --> 03:13:12,520
Speaker 3: system is safe and secure.

3652
03:13:12,840 --> 03:13:13,360
Speaker 5: Yeah huh.

3653
03:13:14,280 --> 03:13:16,240
Speaker 4: Also, I want to point out this is more vindication

3654
03:13:16,440 --> 03:13:19,520
Speaker 4: of the Meya of the Miya Blue tsunami theory that

3655
03:13:19,600 --> 03:13:20,840
Speaker 4: this is going to be a two thousand and eight

3656
03:13:20,879 --> 03:13:26,120
Speaker 4: style blowout if they're losing fucking Marl logo by two points.

3657
03:13:28,560 --> 03:13:31,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I try not to predict how the fucking bigger

3658
03:13:31,560 --> 03:13:34,600
Speaker 2: elections are going to go anymore. Yeah, just because Yeah,

3659
03:13:34,680 --> 03:13:37,240
Speaker 2: it's it's so hard. But isn't that you wouldn't call

3660
03:13:37,240 --> 03:13:38,760
Speaker 2: it a good sign for the Republicans.

3661
03:13:38,920 --> 03:13:40,480
Speaker 4: This is not a good sign for Republicans.

3662
03:13:40,600 --> 03:13:44,080
Speaker 3: Even though only like thirty three thousand people voted in

3663
03:13:44,120 --> 03:13:46,480
Speaker 3: this election, it is still interesting data.

3664
03:13:46,879 --> 03:13:49,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, you would think again that he would he would

3665
03:13:49,560 --> 03:13:52,360
Speaker 2: have more of a lock on his backyard. But also

3666
03:13:52,440 --> 03:13:54,240
Speaker 2: why would he have thought about it? Like I go

3667
03:13:54,360 --> 03:13:55,760
Speaker 2: back and forth and people are like, well, if they

3668
03:13:55,800 --> 03:13:57,520
Speaker 2: were going to steal an election, wouldn't they have done

3669
03:13:57,520 --> 03:13:59,840
Speaker 2: the one in mar Alago? Probably not, Nah, wouldn't the

3670
03:13:59,840 --> 03:14:01,480
Speaker 2: thought to do it? Probably would have figured they don't

3671
03:14:01,520 --> 03:14:01,720
Speaker 2: need to.

3672
03:14:02,480 --> 03:14:05,600
Speaker 3: The FBI is investigating former director of the National counter

3673
03:14:05,800 --> 03:14:09,640
Speaker 3: Terrorism Center Joe Kent for allegedly leaking class haided information,

3674
03:14:10,200 --> 03:14:13,640
Speaker 3: and this investigation predates his resignation last week. In an

3675
03:14:13,680 --> 03:14:17,440
Speaker 3: interview with Tucker Carlson last week, Kent implied Israel may

3676
03:14:17,520 --> 03:14:20,160
Speaker 3: have been involved in the killing of Charlie Kirk and

3677
03:14:20,280 --> 03:14:25,880
Speaker 3: that the FBI stopped Kent's investigation into this quote unquote linkage.

3678
03:14:25,600 --> 03:14:32,080
Speaker 2: Oh my Jesus, right, God, Yeah, man, Israel killed Charlie Kirk.

3679
03:14:32,640 --> 03:14:34,520
Speaker 2: That's why there haven't been any other people on the

3680
03:14:34,600 --> 03:14:38,040
Speaker 2: right who have complained about Trump's aiding and the betting

3681
03:14:38,200 --> 03:14:41,360
Speaker 2: Israeli war crimes. Like what, No other conservatives have been

3682
03:14:41,400 --> 03:14:43,640
Speaker 2: pissed about the invasion of Iran. Just Charlie Kirk.

3683
03:14:44,120 --> 03:14:47,400
Speaker 4: He was the lone anti semi He was the only one.

3684
03:14:47,920 --> 03:14:54,440
Speaker 3: Charlie Kirk was the Golden dome. Sly Trump, Yeah, no, yeah,

3685
03:14:55,760 --> 03:15:01,680
Speaker 3: silly idea for our first big story. Let's talk about airports,

3686
03:15:01,840 --> 03:15:07,440
Speaker 3: Everyone's favorite way to spend five to who knows, however impossible?

3687
03:15:07,440 --> 03:15:11,280
Speaker 4: How many hours? Yeah? An impossible avout? Oh god, no

3688
03:15:11,360 --> 03:15:13,480
Speaker 4: way to know. DHS has been shut.

3689
03:15:13,320 --> 03:15:15,440
Speaker 3: Down for over a month now, and more than four

3690
03:15:15,600 --> 03:15:18,480
Speaker 3: hundred TIS agents have quit after being left without pay,

3691
03:15:18,840 --> 03:15:22,000
Speaker 3: while ICE agents continued to receive paychecks through last year's

3692
03:15:22,080 --> 03:15:26,840
Speaker 3: Big Beautiful Bill. This past weekend, Trump announced ICE would

3693
03:15:26,879 --> 03:15:31,039
Speaker 3: be deployed to airports to assist TSA during the shutdown.

3694
03:15:31,640 --> 03:15:34,000
Speaker 3: By Monday morning, ICE agents have been sent to airports

3695
03:15:34,040 --> 03:15:39,680
Speaker 3: in Atlanta, Chicago, Cleveland, Houston, Fort Myers, New Orleans, Philadelphia, Phoenix, Pittsburgh,

3696
03:15:39,800 --> 03:15:44,400
Speaker 3: San Juan, Newark, and the two New York airports. Interestingly,

3697
03:15:45,000 --> 03:15:48,880
Speaker 3: come Monday, when ICE was spotted they were not wearing masks,

3698
03:15:49,120 --> 03:15:52,200
Speaker 3: which seems to go against agency claims that masks are

3699
03:15:52,280 --> 03:15:56,879
Speaker 3: for protecting agents against so called dosing. That morning, Trump

3700
03:15:57,120 --> 03:16:00,640
Speaker 3: truth to quote, I'm a big proponent of ice wearing

3701
03:16:00,720 --> 03:16:03,039
Speaker 3: masks as they search for and are forced to deal

3702
03:16:03,080 --> 03:16:04,240
Speaker 3: with hardened criminals.

3703
03:16:04,640 --> 03:16:08,320
Speaker 4: I would greatly appreciate. However, no masks in all caps.

3704
03:16:08,360 --> 03:16:11,320
Speaker 3: When helping our country out of the Democrat caused mess

3705
03:16:11,400 --> 03:16:12,400
Speaker 3: at the airports, etc.

3706
03:16:13,040 --> 03:16:13,360
Speaker 2: Thank you.

3707
03:16:14,160 --> 03:16:18,120
Speaker 3: Later on Monday, Trump was asked whose idea it was

3708
03:16:18,280 --> 03:16:22,320
Speaker 3: to send ice to airports, and he had this fascinating response.

3709
03:16:23,160 --> 03:16:24,400
Speaker 18: Mine, that was mine.

3710
03:16:25,360 --> 03:16:26,440
Speaker 10: That was like the paper clip.

3711
03:16:26,520 --> 03:16:28,720
Speaker 18: You know the story of the paper clip. One hundred

3712
03:16:28,720 --> 03:16:32,080
Speaker 18: and eighty two years ago. A man discovered the paper clip.

3713
03:16:32,760 --> 03:16:35,480
Speaker 18: It was so simple, and everybody that looked at it

3714
03:16:35,480 --> 03:16:36,800
Speaker 18: and say, why didn't I think of that?

3715
03:16:37,760 --> 03:16:38,959
Speaker 4: Ice was my idea.

3716
03:16:39,640 --> 03:16:42,360
Speaker 18: I called. First person I called was Tom Homan. I said,

3717
03:16:42,400 --> 03:16:44,720
Speaker 18: what do you think? He said, I think it's great.

3718
03:16:45,320 --> 03:16:47,240
Speaker 18: Then I saw it today there was some masks so

3719
03:16:47,320 --> 03:16:49,560
Speaker 18: and I didn't think the masks were proper. I put

3720
03:16:49,600 --> 03:16:52,080
Speaker 18: out a statement and I asked them would it be

3721
03:16:52,200 --> 03:16:55,039
Speaker 18: possible to take off the mask, because they should wear

3722
03:16:55,120 --> 03:16:57,640
Speaker 18: a mask when they're dealing with the murderers and the

3723
03:16:57,720 --> 03:16:59,400
Speaker 18: thugs left and let into our guns.

3724
03:17:00,600 --> 03:17:04,640
Speaker 2: Discovered the paper cliff, discovered the paper clip. Every now

3725
03:17:04,640 --> 03:17:06,720
Speaker 2: and then you get a little hint about his media diet.

3726
03:17:06,760 --> 03:17:09,960
Speaker 3: It is just fascinating discover the paper paper clip. It's

3727
03:17:09,959 --> 03:17:11,640
Speaker 3: one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard.

3728
03:17:11,800 --> 03:17:13,000
Speaker 4: It's it's insane.

3729
03:17:13,440 --> 03:17:15,720
Speaker 2: Somebody told them a little story about like, well, you

3730
03:17:15,760 --> 03:17:17,840
Speaker 2: know the person who vented the paper clip, and Trump

3731
03:17:17,959 --> 03:17:18,760
Speaker 2: just kind of ran with it.

3732
03:17:19,000 --> 03:17:21,640
Speaker 3: That's got to be it, right, Yeah, It's like it's

3733
03:17:21,640 --> 03:17:23,920
Speaker 3: like the paper clip exists as like as like a

3734
03:17:24,000 --> 03:17:25,520
Speaker 3: platonic form, like like.

3735
03:17:25,640 --> 03:17:28,320
Speaker 4: Existing, and the existing as like as like a piece

3736
03:17:28,360 --> 03:17:28,840
Speaker 4: of truth.

3737
03:17:28,959 --> 03:17:31,320
Speaker 2: Someone chiseled it out of a piece of granite, the

3738
03:17:31,400 --> 03:17:34,080
Speaker 2: first paper cliff and was like, yes, I've done it.

3739
03:17:35,000 --> 03:17:37,280
Speaker 2: It's like forty case shit. Where Like the theory is

3740
03:17:37,320 --> 03:17:39,720
Speaker 2: that all technology has already been invented. So if you

3741
03:17:39,840 --> 03:17:42,720
Speaker 2: invented technology or discovering it, yes, the dark Age of

3742
03:17:42,800 --> 03:17:45,560
Speaker 2: technology gave us the paper clip, and it is actually

3743
03:17:45,760 --> 03:17:48,360
Speaker 2: heresy to invent a new kind of paper clip or

3744
03:17:48,400 --> 03:17:50,400
Speaker 2: either way to attach papers together.

3745
03:17:50,840 --> 03:17:55,440
Speaker 3: Now in less funny news, also on Monday, Trump confirmed

3746
03:17:55,440 --> 03:17:58,240
Speaker 3: that ice would be arresting people at airports.

3747
03:17:59,040 --> 03:18:00,600
Speaker 9: We see ICE arresting legal migration.

3748
03:18:00,760 --> 03:18:04,800
Speaker 18: Yeah. Yeah, that's why the Democrats are going crazy because

3749
03:18:04,959 --> 03:18:08,360
Speaker 18: they've allowed by what they did and hold up. We

3750
03:18:08,520 --> 03:18:12,879
Speaker 18: put ICE who are a very high level I mean,

3751
03:18:12,959 --> 03:18:15,600
Speaker 18: they really are a high level group of people, and

3752
03:18:15,760 --> 03:18:19,000
Speaker 18: they love it because they're able to now arrest illegals

3753
03:18:19,240 --> 03:18:23,000
Speaker 18: as they come into the country that's.

3754
03:18:22,360 --> 03:18:25,680
Speaker 4: Very fertile territory. But that's not why they're there. They're

3755
03:18:25,720 --> 03:18:26,720
Speaker 4: really there to help.

3756
03:18:26,680 --> 03:18:28,080
Speaker 2: Uh huh, there to help.

3757
03:18:28,560 --> 03:18:31,920
Speaker 3: Most people who are documented do not illegally enter the

3758
03:18:32,000 --> 03:18:33,600
Speaker 3: country through airports.

3759
03:18:33,760 --> 03:18:34,560
Speaker 2: That would be silly.

3760
03:18:35,080 --> 03:18:38,039
Speaker 3: They overstay a visa that so they lose their legal presence.

3761
03:18:38,920 --> 03:18:42,560
Speaker 3: On Fox News, Tom Homan claimed that ICE was helping

3762
03:18:42,920 --> 03:18:47,439
Speaker 3: to reduce long lines at airports as well as arrest criminals.

3763
03:18:47,959 --> 03:18:51,279
Speaker 21: And we're filling the holes. The weight lines already dropped.

3764
03:18:51,360 --> 03:18:54,560
Speaker 21: Plus we're doing a security function at the airports. We're

3765
03:18:54,560 --> 03:18:56,640
Speaker 21: going to arrest criminals going to the airport. We're going

3766
03:18:56,680 --> 03:19:01,240
Speaker 21: to look for human trafficking, sex trafficking, money, you know, money,

3767
03:19:01,280 --> 03:19:03,720
Speaker 21: small run money smuggling.

3768
03:19:04,320 --> 03:19:06,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're they're just gonna steal cash off of people

3769
03:19:06,720 --> 03:19:09,320
Speaker 2: at the airport. Yeah, Yeah, Now, TSA has done that

3770
03:19:09,560 --> 03:19:13,000
Speaker 2: for a while off and on, so this isn't entirely new.

3771
03:19:13,040 --> 03:19:14,640
Speaker 2: But they're just gonna take money from people.

3772
03:19:15,720 --> 03:19:19,520
Speaker 3: By Tuesday evening lines at atl the airport in Atlanta,

3773
03:19:19,640 --> 03:19:22,520
Speaker 3: the most busy airport in the world, has the most

3774
03:19:22,560 --> 03:19:26,200
Speaker 3: amount of travel to and from. By Tuesday evening lines

3775
03:19:26,240 --> 03:19:29,920
Speaker 3: were back down, but by Wednesday morning, a friend of

3776
03:19:29,959 --> 03:19:33,120
Speaker 3: mine took three hours to get through TSA.

3777
03:19:33,520 --> 03:19:36,240
Speaker 4: God, so what exactly is ICE doing?

3778
03:19:37,080 --> 03:19:41,199
Speaker 3: Mostly standing behind TSA at security checkpoints, standing behind people

3779
03:19:41,480 --> 03:19:46,720
Speaker 3: still doing the regular TSA work, occasionally directing pedestrian traffic,

3780
03:19:46,879 --> 03:19:50,360
Speaker 3: and maybe at most yelling at people to empty their pockets.

3781
03:19:50,680 --> 03:19:54,080
Speaker 4: Hey, they're keeping the cookie clicker economy going. The mobile

3782
03:19:54,080 --> 03:19:57,600
Speaker 4: app economy is benefiting enormously for all these people standing

3783
03:19:57,640 --> 03:19:58,480
Speaker 4: around their phones.

3784
03:19:59,160 --> 03:20:01,760
Speaker 3: ICE agents cannot actually do the job of TSA since

3785
03:20:01,760 --> 03:20:04,720
Speaker 3: they do not have the training nor the certification required

3786
03:20:04,760 --> 03:20:07,400
Speaker 3: to do so. Nope, So ICE is largely just acting

3787
03:20:07,440 --> 03:20:11,119
Speaker 3: as auxiliary staff and security for the airport.

3788
03:20:11,840 --> 03:20:13,720
Speaker 4: But regular airport.

3789
03:20:13,440 --> 03:20:16,440
Speaker 3: Staff aren't suffering from the financial strain of the shutdown

3790
03:20:16,560 --> 03:20:20,880
Speaker 3: because they're still getting paid. Aaron Barker, the president of

3791
03:20:20,920 --> 03:20:24,280
Speaker 3: the TSA union Local five five, four, which covers airports

3792
03:20:24,320 --> 03:20:28,280
Speaker 3: in Georgia like atl denied that ice contributed to short

3793
03:20:28,360 --> 03:20:32,520
Speaker 3: lines on Tuesday compared to the weekend, noting that Tuesday

3794
03:20:32,680 --> 03:20:34,720
Speaker 3: is a non peak travel day.

3795
03:20:35,040 --> 03:20:37,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course it's quote, it has.

3796
03:20:37,640 --> 03:20:40,720
Speaker 3: Nothing to do with ice presence being there. The ICE

3797
03:20:40,800 --> 03:20:44,240
Speaker 3: officers in Atlanta are not doing any screening functions. They

3798
03:20:44,280 --> 03:20:47,160
Speaker 3: are literally standing behind the officers while they're checking documents

3799
03:20:47,320 --> 03:20:51,039
Speaker 3: and screening passengers or walking the que line that cascades

3800
03:20:51,120 --> 03:20:51,959
Speaker 3: through the airport.

3801
03:20:52,240 --> 03:20:52,720
Speaker 4: Un quote.

3802
03:20:53,959 --> 03:20:57,280
Speaker 3: New York and New Jersey TSA union president Heydrich Thomas

3803
03:20:57,480 --> 03:20:59,879
Speaker 3: said during a press conference, quote, you want to bring

3804
03:21:00,040 --> 03:21:02,960
Speaker 3: a tactical force into an environment where you're required to

3805
03:21:03,000 --> 03:21:06,760
Speaker 3: have customer service and skill set, a mindset where you

3806
03:21:06,920 --> 03:21:09,240
Speaker 3: know what you're doing, how to identify something that might

3807
03:21:09,280 --> 03:21:09,879
Speaker 3: be suspicious.

3808
03:21:10,280 --> 03:21:13,000
Speaker 4: They don't have that training unquote now, and.

3809
03:21:13,040 --> 03:21:16,320
Speaker 2: The TSA doesn't really have that training. Let's be clear, No, no,

3810
03:21:16,520 --> 03:21:18,760
Speaker 2: TSA does not actually a TSA doesn't know what they're

3811
03:21:18,800 --> 03:21:21,200
Speaker 2: doing at all. There was never any chance of this

3812
03:21:21,360 --> 03:21:23,680
Speaker 2: helping anything. This is only going to be more of

3813
03:21:23,720 --> 03:21:25,680
Speaker 2: a pain in the ass for people at airports, which

3814
03:21:25,800 --> 03:21:27,560
Speaker 2: already are unpleasant to be at.

3815
03:21:28,560 --> 03:21:33,000
Speaker 3: Now on Monday, there was viral video of plane clothes

3816
03:21:33,080 --> 03:21:38,080
Speaker 3: agents wrestling a woman into handcuffs at the San Francisco Airport.

3817
03:21:39,080 --> 03:21:43,600
Speaker 3: This incident actually took place Sunday night. Angelina Lopez Jimenez

3818
03:21:43,920 --> 03:21:46,240
Speaker 3: and her nine year old daughter were supposed to fly

3819
03:21:46,320 --> 03:21:49,359
Speaker 3: to Miami to visit a relative. Instead, she was detained

3820
03:21:49,360 --> 03:21:51,959
Speaker 3: by ICE agents and sent to an airport holding room,

3821
03:21:52,080 --> 03:21:56,320
Speaker 3: according to The New York Times, On Friday, TSA agents

3822
03:21:56,640 --> 03:21:59,800
Speaker 3: flagged her name on an upcoming passenger list and in

3823
03:22:00,120 --> 03:22:04,640
Speaker 3: formed ICE that Lopez Jimenez was scheduled to fly from

3824
03:22:04,720 --> 03:22:08,640
Speaker 3: Miami on Sunday. Lopez Semenez and her daughter were detained

3825
03:22:08,680 --> 03:22:11,920
Speaker 3: by border patrol back in twenty eighteen, but were released

3826
03:22:11,959 --> 03:22:15,440
Speaker 3: with a notice to attend court for removal proceedings. Eventually,

3827
03:22:15,520 --> 03:22:18,200
Speaker 3: she stopped showing up for appointments and her deportation was

3828
03:22:18,320 --> 03:22:21,800
Speaker 3: ordered in twenty nineteen. This weekend, at around nine to

3829
03:22:21,920 --> 03:22:26,920
Speaker 3: thirty pm Sunday night, two plane clothes agents approached Lopez

3830
03:22:27,000 --> 03:22:30,600
Speaker 3: Jimenez in Terminal three in San Francisco, and she then

3831
03:22:30,720 --> 03:22:33,960
Speaker 3: handed over her two Guatemalan passports, one for her and

3832
03:22:34,080 --> 03:22:36,760
Speaker 3: the other for her daughter. While being led to the

3833
03:22:36,840 --> 03:22:39,600
Speaker 3: international terminal, she tried to run away, prompting the agents

3834
03:22:39,640 --> 03:22:43,120
Speaker 3: to tackle her to the ground. On Tuesday, her and

3835
03:22:43,280 --> 03:22:46,160
Speaker 3: her daughter were sent to Guatemala. The New York Times

3836
03:22:46,200 --> 03:22:49,480
Speaker 3: says that this operation was unrelated to the Ice airport

3837
03:22:49,560 --> 03:22:55,160
Speaker 3: deployment ordered by Trump. Also on Sunday night, Republican Senate

3838
03:22:55,200 --> 03:22:58,720
Speaker 3: majority leader John Thune told Trump that the Senate had

3839
03:22:58,760 --> 03:23:02,240
Speaker 3: reached a deal to fund TSA and the rest of DHS,

3840
03:23:02,520 --> 03:23:05,480
Speaker 3: except for Ice, which would be handled later in a

3841
03:23:05,520 --> 03:23:10,080
Speaker 3: reconciliation bill, but Trump instructed Thune to kill the deal.

3842
03:23:10,680 --> 03:23:14,040
Speaker 3: Later that night, Trump truthed, I don't think that we

3843
03:23:14,080 --> 03:23:17,760
Speaker 3: should make any deal with crazy country destroying radical left

3844
03:23:17,800 --> 03:23:21,920
Speaker 3: Democrats unless and until they vote with Republicans to pass

3845
03:23:22,120 --> 03:23:26,600
Speaker 3: the Save America Act, that is, the voting Restriction Act,

3846
03:23:26,640 --> 03:23:30,600
Speaker 3: which includes voter ID with picture proof of citizenship to vote,

3847
03:23:30,840 --> 03:23:34,440
Speaker 3: heavily restricting mail in voting, requiring paper ballots, as well

3848
03:23:34,520 --> 03:23:38,599
Speaker 3: as quote no men in women's sports and no transgender

3849
03:23:38,760 --> 03:23:43,480
Speaker 3: mutilation of our precious children unquote. Senator Ted Cruz and

3850
03:23:43,720 --> 03:23:47,840
Speaker 3: John Kennedy are continuing to work on this plan that

3851
03:23:48,040 --> 03:23:52,480
Speaker 3: Thune told Trump about to reopen DHS sans Ice. On

3852
03:23:52,560 --> 03:23:56,039
Speaker 3: Tuesday morning, Kennedy said on Fox News that Thune told

3853
03:23:56,120 --> 03:23:59,480
Speaker 3: him the president is reconsidering the option and quote unquote

3854
03:23:59,640 --> 03:24:02,800
Speaker 3: may on board. Later that day, Trump was asked if

3855
03:24:02,800 --> 03:24:06,120
Speaker 3: he supports what appears to be the quote unquote emerging

3856
03:24:06,200 --> 03:24:10,600
Speaker 3: agreement coming out of the Senate reopen DHS. Trump replied, quote,

3857
03:24:10,959 --> 03:24:12,680
Speaker 3: I'm going to look at it. We're going to take

3858
03:24:12,680 --> 03:24:15,160
Speaker 3: a good, hard look at it. I want to support Republicans,

3859
03:24:15,200 --> 03:24:17,360
Speaker 3: and sometimes it's awfully hard to get votes when you

3860
03:24:17,440 --> 03:24:20,400
Speaker 3: have Democrats that don't want to have voter id unquote.

3861
03:24:21,040 --> 03:24:23,440
Speaker 3: Trump then went on to discuss the same act and

3862
03:24:23,600 --> 03:24:26,920
Speaker 3: how he added no men in women's sports quote unquote,

3863
03:24:27,240 --> 03:24:31,200
Speaker 3: because it's nearly a quote unquote ninety nine to one issue.

3864
03:24:32,280 --> 03:24:34,240
Speaker 3: It's time for our first break, and we will return

3865
03:24:34,440 --> 03:24:35,400
Speaker 3: with more news.

3866
03:24:47,200 --> 03:24:51,440
Speaker 2: We're back, So let's talk about the war that's been

3867
03:24:51,480 --> 03:24:54,160
Speaker 2: going on for like a month at this point in time.

3868
03:24:54,959 --> 03:24:57,560
Speaker 2: You know, as we're kind of sitting here right now,

3869
03:24:57,879 --> 03:25:02,359
Speaker 2: we've all seen gas prices leap up substantially. In California,

3870
03:25:02,360 --> 03:25:04,560
Speaker 2: there's samarias where you're paying like seven to fifty a gallon.

3871
03:25:04,680 --> 03:25:07,640
Speaker 2: Good lord, it's gone by about a dollar where I live.

3872
03:25:08,080 --> 03:25:10,360
Speaker 2: It looks fairly credible. There was a lot of fear

3873
03:25:10,400 --> 03:25:11,960
Speaker 2: that like kind of the worst case scenario would be

3874
03:25:12,000 --> 03:25:14,000
Speaker 2: that oil gets anywhere near like two hundred dollars a

3875
03:25:14,040 --> 03:25:16,240
Speaker 2: gallon or two hundred dollars a barrel from me a

3876
03:25:16,320 --> 03:25:19,960
Speaker 2: gallin Sorry, that would be that'd be real bad. But

3877
03:25:20,200 --> 03:25:24,160
Speaker 2: what we're looking at right now, there's credible reason to

3878
03:25:24,240 --> 03:25:26,840
Speaker 2: expect that like this stuff won't peak any lower than

3879
03:25:26,840 --> 03:25:28,920
Speaker 2: about one hundred and seventy five bucks a barrel, which

3880
03:25:29,000 --> 03:25:32,000
Speaker 2: is pretty catastrophic for the US economy and the global

3881
03:25:32,080 --> 03:25:35,480
Speaker 2: economy as a whole. Night it's bad, and Trump has been,

3882
03:25:35,640 --> 03:25:38,119
Speaker 2: i think, increasingly making it clear that he is looking

3883
03:25:38,200 --> 03:25:40,800
Speaker 2: for an off ramp. There's a lot of reporting from

3884
03:25:40,840 --> 03:25:43,360
Speaker 2: inside the administration that suggests they did not think things

3885
03:25:43,400 --> 03:25:45,640
Speaker 2: would still be going on this long, That they thought

3886
03:25:45,680 --> 03:25:49,520
Speaker 2: that after the first rank of Iranian leaders were kind

3887
03:25:49,560 --> 03:25:52,320
Speaker 2: of wiped out, the guys behind them would be willing

3888
03:25:52,360 --> 03:25:55,360
Speaker 2: to play ball with the administration in exchange for staying

3889
03:25:55,440 --> 03:25:57,320
Speaker 2: in power, which is more or less the offer that

3890
03:25:57,440 --> 03:26:03,160
Speaker 2: we gave Delsi Rodriguez in Venezuela and the Venezuelan regime.

3891
03:26:03,280 --> 03:26:06,280
Speaker 2: The people who kind of were behind Maduro were willing

3892
03:26:06,360 --> 03:26:08,760
Speaker 2: to take, but Iran is a very different country, and

3893
03:26:08,840 --> 03:26:10,520
Speaker 2: they're in a very different situation, and they have a

3894
03:26:10,640 --> 03:26:13,359
Speaker 2: very different military, and they have a very different physical

3895
03:26:13,440 --> 03:26:16,520
Speaker 2: strategic situation than Venezuela does than any other country that

3896
03:26:16,600 --> 03:26:19,160
Speaker 2: the United States has attempted to use these kind of

3897
03:26:19,320 --> 03:26:24,080
Speaker 2: like violent bullying tactics on and so far, on does

3898
03:26:24,120 --> 03:26:27,400
Speaker 2: not seem to be interested in coming to the table.

3899
03:26:27,520 --> 03:26:30,600
Speaker 2: Trump has made a couple of statements about how we're

3900
03:26:30,640 --> 03:26:33,039
Speaker 2: working on getting out of this. You know, we've presented

3901
03:26:33,080 --> 03:26:36,760
Speaker 2: an option to the Iranian government that would basically allow

3902
03:26:36,800 --> 03:26:38,879
Speaker 2: them to get rid of all of the sanctions if

3903
03:26:38,879 --> 03:26:42,000
Speaker 2: they just promised to stop enriching uranium and to handover

3904
03:26:42,120 --> 03:26:44,200
Speaker 2: everything that they do have and to never try to

3905
03:26:44,240 --> 03:26:46,320
Speaker 2: get a new I think it's pretty clear they're not

3906
03:26:46,600 --> 03:26:48,960
Speaker 2: willing to make that promise anymore.

3907
03:26:49,040 --> 03:26:49,560
Speaker 4: I think they were.

3908
03:26:49,600 --> 03:26:52,800
Speaker 2: I mean, they certainly were earlier five years ago. But

3909
03:26:53,200 --> 03:26:55,120
Speaker 2: at the time in which you've repeatedly killed all the

3910
03:26:55,240 --> 03:26:57,800
Speaker 2: people running the country, you've kind of only made it

3911
03:26:57,920 --> 03:27:01,160
Speaker 2: clear that they need noops. And that's the waiting game

3912
03:27:01,200 --> 03:27:04,000
Speaker 2: that we find ourselves kind of currently locked in here

3913
03:27:04,760 --> 03:27:07,199
Speaker 2: is Iran has shut down the straight of hornm moves.

3914
03:27:07,280 --> 03:27:09,760
Speaker 2: They've at least the last I checked, I think, hit

3915
03:27:10,000 --> 03:27:13,360
Speaker 2: seventeen ships heading through the straight or in the straight,

3916
03:27:13,959 --> 03:27:16,480
Speaker 2: and that's caused the vast majority of traffic that would

3917
03:27:16,480 --> 03:27:19,560
Speaker 2: be crossing through to hold back, and so you've got

3918
03:27:19,680 --> 03:27:23,119
Speaker 2: this massive backlog of craft just kind of waiting because

3919
03:27:23,160 --> 03:27:26,160
Speaker 2: they can't go through. Trump previously had made some big

3920
03:27:26,200 --> 03:27:29,200
Speaker 2: statements about while the US Navy will escort them through

3921
03:27:29,400 --> 03:27:33,680
Speaker 2: and will get like a global coalition of naval forces

3922
03:27:33,800 --> 03:27:38,000
Speaker 2: to escort them through. That hasn't come to pass. For

3923
03:27:38,080 --> 03:27:42,320
Speaker 2: one thing, very few governments with navies seem interested in

3924
03:27:42,520 --> 03:27:45,640
Speaker 2: sending sizeable naval forces to the strait of horror moves.

3925
03:27:45,480 --> 03:27:45,760
Speaker 5: To do this.

3926
03:27:46,480 --> 03:27:48,520
Speaker 2: And for the other thing, that's not an easy thing

3927
03:27:48,600 --> 03:27:51,959
Speaker 2: to do. It may seem like it because it would

3928
03:27:51,959 --> 03:27:54,520
Speaker 2: be a real crazy thing to all of us listening

3929
03:27:54,680 --> 03:27:58,040
Speaker 2: if a single US naval vessel were destroyed in combat,

3930
03:27:58,280 --> 03:28:00,640
Speaker 2: right like the last time anything that happened with the

3931
03:28:00,720 --> 03:28:02,680
Speaker 2: USS coal which was hit while it was in dock

3932
03:28:02,800 --> 03:28:05,119
Speaker 2: by a suicide bomb. The idea of like a destroyer

3933
03:28:05,200 --> 03:28:09,440
Speaker 2: getting sunk would be deeply upsetting to the American people,

3934
03:28:09,560 --> 03:28:11,800
Speaker 2: I think probably, and like deeply it would be a

3935
03:28:11,879 --> 03:28:14,720
Speaker 2: huge problem for let alone if an aircraft carrier were

3936
03:28:14,760 --> 03:28:18,960
Speaker 2: to take serious damage, these would be serious problems for

3937
03:28:19,120 --> 03:28:23,680
Speaker 2: the administration. The problem is that you can't escort fuel

3938
03:28:23,760 --> 03:28:28,320
Speaker 2: tankers through the Strait of Hormuz without exposing them and

3939
03:28:28,440 --> 03:28:33,119
Speaker 2: the ships escorting them to direct fire. Geographically, you've probably

3940
03:28:33,160 --> 03:28:35,240
Speaker 2: heard a lot about carg Island recently, which is this

3941
03:28:35,360 --> 03:28:37,400
Speaker 2: island that, as we talked about in a previous episode,

3942
03:28:37,720 --> 03:28:42,039
Speaker 2: a lot of Iran's oil infrastructures on because the coast

3943
03:28:42,360 --> 03:28:44,960
Speaker 2: of Iran is not mostly not deep water, and you

3944
03:28:45,040 --> 03:28:48,040
Speaker 2: need very deep water for the boats that transport huge

3945
03:28:48,080 --> 03:28:50,480
Speaker 2: amounts of crude oil. These are massive vessels. These are

3946
03:28:50,480 --> 03:28:52,520
Speaker 2: some of the largest machines human beings have ever built

3947
03:28:52,520 --> 03:28:54,400
Speaker 2: of any kind. Yeah, these are the size of skyscrapers,

3948
03:28:54,840 --> 03:28:58,480
Speaker 2: Like these are skyscrapers on their side. They are enormous boats.

3949
03:28:58,560 --> 03:29:00,680
Speaker 2: It is when people were suggested, what if we just

3950
03:29:00,760 --> 03:29:02,920
Speaker 2: drive the oil? You have no idea how big these

3951
03:29:02,959 --> 03:29:04,720
Speaker 2: fucking boats are and how much oil it takes to

3952
03:29:04,800 --> 03:29:08,280
Speaker 2: keep the world running. So you have a very narrow

3953
03:29:08,640 --> 03:29:11,120
Speaker 2: waterway through most of this, so it's not like it

3954
03:29:11,320 --> 03:29:14,160
Speaker 2: is in other waterways or in the broader ocean where

3955
03:29:14,200 --> 03:29:17,000
Speaker 2: people have a lot of roots they can take. Big

3956
03:29:17,080 --> 03:29:20,320
Speaker 2: ships can only take one very well known path through

3957
03:29:20,360 --> 03:29:23,760
Speaker 2: the strait, right, and it's really easy to mine that path.

3958
03:29:24,240 --> 03:29:27,600
Speaker 2: If you've got naval vessels escorting those big boats, then

3959
03:29:27,600 --> 03:29:30,480
Speaker 2: you've got us naval vessels that are exposing themselves to

3960
03:29:30,680 --> 03:29:33,560
Speaker 2: direct fire from the mountains and hills in a way

3961
03:29:33,600 --> 03:29:36,040
Speaker 2: that is impossible to stop them from getting shot at,

3962
03:29:36,120 --> 03:29:39,160
Speaker 2: from having drones flung at them. And we have a

3963
03:29:39,280 --> 03:29:41,680
Speaker 2: pretty good understanding of what we can stop and what

3964
03:29:41,800 --> 03:29:44,840
Speaker 2: we can't stop. And based on everything that's been happening,

3965
03:29:44,920 --> 03:29:46,920
Speaker 2: my suspicion is that Trump has been getting told by

3966
03:29:46,959 --> 03:29:50,640
Speaker 2: his officers, we can't guarantee we won't lose sailors and

3967
03:29:50,760 --> 03:29:53,880
Speaker 2: we won't lose ships if we do this, because you

3968
03:29:54,000 --> 03:29:57,480
Speaker 2: are sending them through the chokiest of choke points, and

3969
03:29:57,600 --> 03:30:01,480
Speaker 2: Iran has spent fifty years preparing to shit at naval

3970
03:30:01,560 --> 03:30:05,600
Speaker 2: vessels escorting oil tankers through the Strait of Hormus. There's

3971
03:30:05,680 --> 03:30:07,480
Speaker 2: no guarantee it's not going to be a blood bath.

3972
03:30:07,680 --> 03:30:10,240
Speaker 2: So that's why the administration is looking at stuff like

3973
03:30:10,400 --> 03:30:12,400
Speaker 2: what should be we sending in marines, and we have

3974
03:30:12,720 --> 03:30:15,720
Speaker 2: marines that are moving into the area. There's been a

3975
03:30:15,760 --> 03:30:18,800
Speaker 2: lot of talk about having them seize islands in the Strait,

3976
03:30:19,440 --> 03:30:22,800
Speaker 2: potentially even carg Island. The problem with that is, obviously

3977
03:30:22,920 --> 03:30:26,000
Speaker 2: Iran has to deal with the bottleneck of we need

3978
03:30:26,080 --> 03:30:29,320
Speaker 2: this big island with its deep harbors, otherwise we can't

3979
03:30:29,360 --> 03:30:32,800
Speaker 2: get our oil out. But if the US takes that island,

3980
03:30:33,360 --> 03:30:36,160
Speaker 2: it's in the middle of a bunch of shit Iran controls,

3981
03:30:36,240 --> 03:30:39,560
Speaker 2: and they can fling explosives at the forces who take

3982
03:30:39,640 --> 03:30:42,920
Speaker 2: that island all fucking day long. It is a very

3983
03:30:43,080 --> 03:30:45,640
Speaker 2: bad position to be in. If you're the Marines. I

3984
03:30:45,680 --> 03:30:47,680
Speaker 2: don't care how well trained you are, I don't care

3985
03:30:47,680 --> 03:30:50,560
Speaker 2: how much support you have. That is a bad position

3986
03:30:50,760 --> 03:30:53,680
Speaker 2: to be in. And any military leader who has been

3987
03:30:53,800 --> 03:30:56,800
Speaker 2: under fire is trying very hard right now to let

3988
03:30:56,840 --> 03:30:59,680
Speaker 2: Trump know this will not be a low casualty endeavor.

3989
03:30:59,840 --> 03:31:02,640
Speaker 2: It will not be an easy endeavor, and you will

3990
03:31:02,720 --> 03:31:05,760
Speaker 2: not wind up just controlling this island and being able

3991
03:31:05,800 --> 03:31:08,040
Speaker 2: to dictate things to Iran. You will wind up having

3992
03:31:08,320 --> 03:31:13,600
Speaker 2: potentially thousands of your boys held captive by Iranian forces

3993
03:31:13,840 --> 03:31:16,680
Speaker 2: that surround them and flink explosives at them all day long.

3994
03:31:16,720 --> 03:31:17,880
Speaker 2: It's a bad position to be in.

3995
03:31:18,600 --> 03:31:20,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, and this and this is I think part of

3996
03:31:20,480 --> 03:31:23,080
Speaker 4: like the issue with with the Trump administration's policy here

3997
03:31:23,160 --> 03:31:25,720
Speaker 4: is like Trump himself and the people around him just

3998
03:31:25,760 --> 03:31:27,920
Speaker 4: seem to have been treating the Iranian army as not

3999
03:31:28,120 --> 03:31:31,000
Speaker 4: a real armist and it is no, this is this

4000
03:31:31,120 --> 03:31:32,800
Speaker 4: is an actual they know what they're doing, Like this

4001
03:31:32,920 --> 03:31:34,920
Speaker 4: is this is not the Venezuelan army, Like this is

4002
03:31:34,959 --> 03:31:38,880
Speaker 4: an actual army. Yeah, Like you can't do this ship.

4003
03:31:39,040 --> 03:31:40,920
Speaker 2: There's a lot of guys left to have a lot

4004
03:31:40,959 --> 03:31:43,800
Speaker 2: of experience in it preparing for this exact war for

4005
03:31:43,879 --> 03:31:44,840
Speaker 2: a very long time.

4006
03:31:45,480 --> 03:31:49,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, and who are ideologically motivated to not have the

4007
03:31:49,240 --> 03:31:54,480
Speaker 4: US like invade their country. The issues here with the

4008
03:31:54,520 --> 03:31:57,120
Speaker 4: fact that there's there's no good way to open the

4009
03:31:57,240 --> 03:31:59,000
Speaker 4: straight I think it's been dictating a lot of what

4010
03:31:59,040 --> 03:32:02,280
Speaker 4: Trump's been doing with his newgotiations, and I've started calling

4011
03:32:02,360 --> 03:32:05,280
Speaker 4: them like market negotiations because if you look at whenever

4012
03:32:05,480 --> 03:32:08,680
Speaker 4: Trump releases a statement, So on Monday, for example, he

4013
03:32:08,720 --> 03:32:11,640
Speaker 4: released the thing saying like, ah, we've entered like peace negotiations.

4014
03:32:12,520 --> 03:32:15,600
Speaker 4: And that was Monday morning, as the markets were opening

4015
03:32:15,720 --> 03:32:17,640
Speaker 4: from a very panicky weekend where people were it was

4016
03:32:17,640 --> 03:32:19,440
Speaker 4: sort of setting in that oil prices were going to

4017
03:32:19,480 --> 03:32:22,640
Speaker 4: be increasing and whenever Trump does one of these speeches

4018
03:32:22,640 --> 03:32:24,400
Speaker 4: where he says, oh, well, we're gonna we're going to

4019
03:32:24,440 --> 03:32:26,080
Speaker 4: find some way to open the straight or he does

4020
03:32:26,760 --> 03:32:28,880
Speaker 4: these like peace off like he sends this piece deal

4021
03:32:28,920 --> 03:32:30,480
Speaker 4: to a Ron, which we don't know the details of.

4022
03:32:31,400 --> 03:32:33,120
Speaker 4: There was like a reported leak of it in the

4023
03:32:33,200 --> 03:32:36,200
Speaker 4: Israeli media, but we don't know exactly what's in it.

4024
03:32:36,480 --> 03:32:39,600
Speaker 4: From that Israeli leak, it didn't seem to be a

4025
03:32:40,120 --> 03:32:41,440
Speaker 4: I mean, it didn't seem to be something that the

4026
03:32:41,480 --> 03:32:43,320
Speaker 4: government would accept, right. But the reason he's doing it

4027
03:32:43,520 --> 03:32:45,800
Speaker 4: is because he's trying to calm the markets down on

4028
03:32:45,920 --> 03:32:47,760
Speaker 4: a sort of on a sort of day by day basis.

4029
03:32:48,680 --> 03:32:50,400
Speaker 4: And part of it also was that there was this

4030
03:32:50,480 --> 03:32:53,800
Speaker 4: whole panic that Trump had been threatening early this week

4031
03:32:53,920 --> 03:32:56,959
Speaker 4: to start doing all of these bombing campaigns against Iranian

4032
03:32:57,240 --> 03:33:01,200
Speaker 4: like civilian power facilities and supposedly Onzi billion power facilities too,

4033
03:33:01,600 --> 03:33:02,920
Speaker 4: and then on Monday he was like, no, no, no,

4034
03:33:02,959 --> 03:33:04,840
Speaker 4: we're not actually doing that. Actually, we're doing peace talks.

4035
03:33:04,879 --> 03:33:07,560
Speaker 4: We're pushing this off for five days. And this is

4036
03:33:08,000 --> 03:33:11,120
Speaker 4: again market manipulation stuff, right, because he.

4037
03:33:11,160 --> 03:33:14,280
Speaker 3: Walked only we're only at war during the weekend when

4038
03:33:14,360 --> 03:33:15,520
Speaker 3: the markets are closed.

4039
03:33:16,080 --> 03:33:18,400
Speaker 4: So so this is what these negotiations are, right, and

4040
03:33:18,600 --> 03:33:22,040
Speaker 4: that's why and Ron immediately like it goes like no,

4041
03:33:22,480 --> 03:33:24,960
Speaker 4: like we're not, We're not in negotiations, and then released

4042
03:33:25,440 --> 03:33:27,880
Speaker 4: their own five point plan to end the war, which

4043
03:33:27,920 --> 03:33:29,840
Speaker 4: the US would pay war damages. And they've been really

4044
03:33:29,879 --> 03:33:32,000
Speaker 4: consistent about this, which the US would pay war damages

4045
03:33:32,040 --> 03:33:34,800
Speaker 4: and reparations. And then this one. And also you know,

4046
03:33:34,840 --> 03:33:36,760
Speaker 4: there was a whole thing about obviously like the US

4047
03:33:36,800 --> 03:33:39,000
Speaker 4: stopping the war, they're being the current measures in place

4048
03:33:39,040 --> 03:33:41,360
Speaker 4: to keep the US and doing it again. They want

4049
03:33:41,440 --> 03:33:44,040
Speaker 4: the US to have its regional proxies stand down, which

4050
03:33:44,080 --> 03:33:46,960
Speaker 4: would also presumably end the other major thing that's going

4051
03:33:47,000 --> 03:33:50,000
Speaker 4: on in this war, which is just Israel ethnically cleansing

4052
03:33:50,040 --> 03:33:52,240
Speaker 4: this south to Lebanon. We just we just released an

4053
03:33:52,240 --> 03:33:53,640
Speaker 4: episode about this. It's very good.

4054
03:33:54,200 --> 03:33:55,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, make a defensive barrier.

4055
03:33:56,560 --> 03:33:56,800
Speaker 5: Yeah.

4056
03:33:57,160 --> 03:33:58,760
Speaker 4: And the ever, the last part about this, and this

4057
03:33:58,840 --> 03:34:00,560
Speaker 4: is the part that I that I I think is

4058
03:34:01,320 --> 03:34:04,520
Speaker 4: the real kind of clincher here, is that it would

4059
03:34:04,560 --> 03:34:07,600
Speaker 4: give Iran control over the straight oh hormeuse, which is

4060
03:34:07,720 --> 03:34:10,240
Speaker 4: a real problem for any kind of American negotiation because

4061
03:34:10,640 --> 03:34:13,200
Speaker 4: this was always a thing that the Iran government never did, right,

4062
03:34:13,280 --> 03:34:15,560
Speaker 4: They had the military capacity to hold the straight. The

4063
03:34:15,640 --> 03:34:17,520
Speaker 4: reason they didn't do it was that it would start

4064
03:34:17,560 --> 03:34:19,600
Speaker 4: a war. But now you've started the war, and now

4065
03:34:19,959 --> 03:34:22,400
Speaker 4: you've opened Pandora's box, and you can't put the fact

4066
03:34:22,400 --> 03:34:24,720
Speaker 4: that they can do this militarily back into the box.

4067
03:34:25,000 --> 03:34:25,160
Speaker 5: Yeah.

4068
03:34:25,240 --> 03:34:26,800
Speaker 4: Right, So now they're just being like, fuck it, you

4069
03:34:26,879 --> 03:34:30,040
Speaker 4: guys can't actually defeat us militarily before the entire world

4070
03:34:30,040 --> 03:34:33,360
Speaker 4: economy collapses, Like fuck it, give us the straight now.

4071
03:34:33,760 --> 03:34:35,680
Speaker 4: I do want to mention something about some of the

4072
03:34:36,200 --> 03:34:40,240
Speaker 4: oil tankers, which is that, Okay, the whole situation is

4073
03:34:40,360 --> 03:34:42,800
Speaker 4: very murky, but Iran has been I mean, obviously it's

4074
03:34:42,800 --> 03:34:45,320
Speaker 4: been allowing its own tankers to go through, which is

4075
03:34:45,360 --> 03:34:48,360
Speaker 4: not a huge amount of oil, but it's some We

4076
03:34:48,520 --> 03:34:52,720
Speaker 4: got a reported case. The statements on this were released

4077
03:34:52,840 --> 03:34:56,040
Speaker 4: by the Thai governments and also a Thai oil company

4078
03:34:56,800 --> 03:35:02,039
Speaker 4: where the Thai basically foreign minutes like called the Iranian

4079
03:35:02,080 --> 03:35:04,040
Speaker 4: government and said, hey, we have an oil taker here

4080
03:35:04,040 --> 03:35:05,840
Speaker 4: where you let it through, and they went yeah, sure.

4081
03:35:06,600 --> 03:35:10,320
Speaker 4: So there seems to be some kind of process by

4082
03:35:10,400 --> 03:35:13,640
Speaker 4: which countries can do some kind of negotiation with the

4083
03:35:13,720 --> 03:35:17,080
Speaker 4: running government and be let through. What exactly the look

4084
03:35:17,120 --> 03:35:19,640
Speaker 4: that looks like in the details of it are really unclear.

4085
03:35:19,720 --> 03:35:21,120
Speaker 4: We don't know if this is a pattern or if

4086
03:35:21,120 --> 03:35:23,120
Speaker 4: they were just like, yeah, sure whatever, Thailand, you can

4087
03:35:23,200 --> 03:35:26,320
Speaker 4: you can do this. But yeah, that's kind of the

4088
03:35:26,360 --> 03:35:26,879
Speaker 4: state of things.

4089
03:35:26,920 --> 03:35:27,160
Speaker 5: I guess.

4090
03:35:27,200 --> 03:35:29,400
Speaker 4: I guess we should also mention there's been a bunch

4091
03:35:29,440 --> 03:35:33,119
Speaker 4: of reporting at the US is deploying two thousand paratroopers.

4092
03:35:33,280 --> 03:35:35,560
Speaker 4: I've seen both one thousand and two thousand side it

4093
03:35:35,640 --> 03:35:39,080
Speaker 4: is the number from the eighty second Airborne into the region,

4094
03:35:39,200 --> 03:35:42,960
Speaker 4: which presumably would be there for that like disastrous carg

4095
03:35:43,040 --> 03:35:46,800
Speaker 4: Island campaign. But oh boy, which is not boots on

4096
03:35:46,840 --> 03:35:47,640
Speaker 4: the ground because it's.

4097
03:35:48,040 --> 03:35:52,360
Speaker 2: It's doesn't the ground doesn't. We're good.

4098
03:35:53,480 --> 03:35:55,760
Speaker 4: I'm so excited for US to fight an entire war

4099
03:35:55,840 --> 03:35:57,600
Speaker 4: in the Arctic where he's like, there's not boots on

4100
03:35:57,600 --> 03:35:59,199
Speaker 4: the ground because they're all wearing snow shirts.

4101
03:36:00,400 --> 03:36:01,440
Speaker 2: Can't can't get us there.

4102
03:36:02,400 --> 03:36:05,080
Speaker 3: You see, all the Marines are wearing jet packs. They

4103
03:36:05,160 --> 03:36:06,120
Speaker 3: never touched the ground.

4104
03:36:06,640 --> 03:36:08,680
Speaker 2: They never touched the ground. They've got those weird what

4105
03:36:08,959 --> 03:36:11,760
Speaker 2: there's wearing water backpacks that you fly you can fly.

4106
03:36:11,760 --> 03:36:17,080
Speaker 4: With little jet ski to get those. They're not touching

4107
03:36:17,120 --> 03:36:20,040
Speaker 4: the ground. They're they're all laying a corduet road in

4108
03:36:20,120 --> 03:36:22,080
Speaker 4: front of them, so they're not technically on the ground,

4109
03:36:22,120 --> 03:36:26,520
Speaker 4: they're on this road. That Yeah, so things continue to

4110
03:36:26,600 --> 03:36:30,000
Speaker 4: go bad. Leave for kind of everyone involved in this

4111
03:36:30,080 --> 03:36:33,640
Speaker 4: war except I guess the Israelis, who are they seem

4112
03:36:33,680 --> 03:36:35,879
Speaker 4: to be happy. Yeah, they shouldn't be having a great

4113
03:36:35,920 --> 03:36:39,760
Speaker 4: time doing their doing another ethnic cleansing. But another group

4114
03:36:39,800 --> 03:36:43,360
Speaker 4: of people who've been doing extremely badly as a result

4115
03:36:43,400 --> 03:36:47,120
Speaker 4: of this, and has gotten almost no coverage in the

4116
03:36:47,240 --> 03:36:49,680
Speaker 4: American press to the extent that like I found out

4117
03:36:49,720 --> 03:36:51,120
Speaker 4: about I mean, like I was started hearing about the

4118
03:36:51,120 --> 03:36:54,640
Speaker 4: stuff from just like by friends who are Indian, which

4119
03:36:54,720 --> 03:37:00,120
Speaker 4: is that things are very very bad right now in

4120
03:37:00,360 --> 03:37:04,920
Speaker 4: East and Southeast Asia and just Southeast in general. Multiple countries,

4121
03:37:05,240 --> 03:37:10,080
Speaker 4: including a Thailand for example, have either sent part or

4122
03:37:10,160 --> 03:37:12,560
Speaker 4: all of their government employees home and told them to

4123
03:37:12,720 --> 03:37:14,880
Speaker 4: just work from home because they can't afford to keep

4124
03:37:14,920 --> 03:37:18,720
Speaker 4: their offices open because like cooling the offices is too expensive.

4125
03:37:19,480 --> 03:37:22,800
Speaker 4: They're sort of rolling crisis like across the entire sort

4126
03:37:22,840 --> 03:37:25,560
Speaker 4: of Pacific rim area because all of these countries are

4127
03:37:25,680 --> 03:37:30,120
Speaker 4: unbelievably reliance on oil, natural gas. This is also down

4128
03:37:30,160 --> 03:37:32,880
Speaker 4: to stuff like cooking oil too, which they also have

4129
03:37:32,959 --> 03:37:35,000
Speaker 4: not been able to get. And so you know, you

4130
03:37:35,040 --> 03:37:38,240
Speaker 4: can look at Sri Lanka where there are these just

4131
03:37:38,600 --> 03:37:42,920
Speaker 4: enormous fuel cues because the Sri Lankan governments they're four

4132
03:37:43,000 --> 03:37:44,760
Speaker 4: years out from the last time that they weren't able

4133
03:37:44,800 --> 03:37:47,520
Speaker 4: to input oil. That one was a sort of currency crisis,

4134
03:37:48,320 --> 03:37:51,560
Speaker 4: balance of payments issue they were having, but the moment

4135
03:37:51,640 --> 03:37:53,240
Speaker 4: there was there was a problem with the oil supply,

4136
03:37:53,280 --> 03:37:55,200
Speaker 4: the government started doing rationing. So now you have these

4137
03:37:55,240 --> 03:37:58,520
Speaker 4: massive lines for people trying to get gasoline. That's I

4138
03:37:58,560 --> 03:38:01,600
Speaker 4: think one of the worst ones in terms of just

4139
03:38:02,320 --> 03:38:04,760
Speaker 4: pure inability to get gasoline. So this is a problem

4140
03:38:04,840 --> 03:38:08,640
Speaker 4: across the region. The BBC also said, I was just

4141
03:38:08,640 --> 03:38:10,200
Speaker 4: gonna read the quot from the VC that they quote

4142
03:38:10,280 --> 03:38:15,720
Speaker 4: declared Wednesdays a public holiday. Sure, so yeah, they're just

4143
03:38:15,720 --> 03:38:17,720
Speaker 4: adding another day to the weekend because they can't have

4144
03:38:17,800 --> 03:38:21,320
Speaker 4: businesses open. Because businesses can't afford to like heat or

4145
03:38:21,440 --> 03:38:24,680
Speaker 4: cool themselves, they literally can't afford to keep the economy running.

4146
03:38:25,160 --> 03:38:30,120
Speaker 4: And variations of this are playing out all across South Asia.

4147
03:38:30,200 --> 03:38:33,200
Speaker 4: There's been a massive closure of industries in India, A

4148
03:38:33,240 --> 03:38:35,600
Speaker 4: whole bunch of restaurants. I think the estimates were about

4149
03:38:35,640 --> 03:38:38,960
Speaker 4: one fifth of restaurants are just gone because they can't

4150
03:38:38,959 --> 03:38:42,800
Speaker 4: get cooking oil. And you have the situations where like

4151
03:38:42,800 --> 03:38:45,240
Speaker 4: anything that requires like cooking oil, even other things that

4152
03:38:45,280 --> 03:38:49,160
Speaker 4: are open like can't be used. Gujarat, but the Indian

4153
03:38:49,200 --> 03:38:51,600
Speaker 4: side of Gujarat has a very large ceramic industry and

4154
03:38:51,680 --> 03:38:54,480
Speaker 4: it's gone. It's been gone for like a month. Eighty

4155
03:38:54,520 --> 03:38:56,640
Speaker 4: percent of it is shut down. This is four hundred

4156
03:38:56,760 --> 03:39:00,280
Speaker 4: thousand people affected by this because they're using for pain

4157
03:39:00,440 --> 03:39:04,720
Speaker 4: and there's no propane and this this is playing out

4158
03:39:04,879 --> 03:39:08,600
Speaker 4: across the region right There's been some reporting about concerns

4159
03:39:08,640 --> 03:39:11,320
Speaker 4: in Taiwan over whether they're going to have enough sort

4160
03:39:11,320 --> 03:39:15,200
Speaker 4: of liquified natural gas in order to keep their ship

4161
03:39:15,280 --> 03:39:19,360
Speaker 4: facilities running. But Taiwan is like kind of okay. It's

4162
03:39:19,400 --> 03:39:22,599
Speaker 4: places like Sri Lanka's, places like Thailand's, places like Miammars,

4163
03:39:22,760 --> 03:39:27,520
Speaker 4: India where things are getting really really bleak really quickly.

4164
03:39:28,400 --> 03:39:30,600
Speaker 4: There's a story that kind of did make it through

4165
03:39:30,640 --> 03:39:34,320
Speaker 4: into the American press about how the US temporary lifted

4166
03:39:34,440 --> 03:39:37,360
Speaker 4: sanctions on Iranian oil specifically so that there were these

4167
03:39:37,400 --> 03:39:40,840
Speaker 4: tankers the Iranian tankers that were just at sea and

4168
03:39:41,600 --> 03:39:44,280
Speaker 4: the sanctions specifically on those tankers are lifted so India

4169
03:39:44,320 --> 03:39:46,360
Speaker 4: could buy it. And this has been happening with Russian

4170
03:39:46,360 --> 03:39:47,880
Speaker 4: oil too. And the reason this is happening is that

4171
03:39:48,000 --> 03:39:50,800
Speaker 4: if you're not getting these kind of injections of oil,

4172
03:39:51,920 --> 03:39:58,080
Speaker 4: the situation there would be even more bleak than it

4173
03:39:58,200 --> 03:39:59,960
Speaker 4: already is. And obviously there's some places where it's just

4174
03:40:00,280 --> 03:40:05,000
Speaker 4: everything is continuing as normal, but you're starting to see

4175
03:40:05,200 --> 03:40:09,600
Speaker 4: just kind of these countries un raffle because so much

4176
03:40:09,680 --> 03:40:13,680
Speaker 4: of their infrastructure is based on an oil and natural

4177
03:40:13,760 --> 03:40:16,320
Speaker 4: gas that's that's that's coming through the Gulf, and it's

4178
03:40:16,879 --> 03:40:20,280
Speaker 4: really fucking bleak. And it's something to keep in mind

4179
03:40:21,240 --> 03:40:24,080
Speaker 4: as as this crisis rolls on. We're dealing with like

4180
03:40:24,959 --> 03:40:28,520
Speaker 4: gas price go up, which is obviously bad in an issue.

4181
03:40:29,840 --> 03:40:31,240
Speaker 4: There are a shit ton of people in the world

4182
03:40:31,240 --> 03:40:32,840
Speaker 4: where it's like, yeah, I know, like four hundred thousand

4183
03:40:32,840 --> 03:40:35,400
Speaker 4: people are out of their jobs because their entire ceramics

4184
03:40:35,440 --> 03:40:37,880
Speaker 4: industry is gone. Yeah, right, and these are these are

4185
03:40:38,040 --> 03:40:40,960
Speaker 4: not people who have money in the first place. And

4186
03:40:41,520 --> 03:40:43,280
Speaker 4: this is crisis is just going to continue as long

4187
03:40:43,320 --> 03:40:44,600
Speaker 4: as the Trump keeps this war going.

4188
03:40:45,480 --> 03:40:46,880
Speaker 2: So I guess we'll see how long that is.

4189
03:40:47,240 --> 03:40:48,120
Speaker 4: Hopefully not long.

4190
03:40:48,720 --> 03:40:51,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean Poland continues to be bad.

4191
03:40:52,480 --> 03:40:54,800
Speaker 3: I'm sure Marco Rubio and JD. Events are going to

4192
03:40:54,840 --> 03:40:58,879
Speaker 3: be on it as they god, as they continue their negotiations.

4193
03:41:00,959 --> 03:41:03,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's not a long list of people that I

4194
03:41:03,280 --> 03:41:05,000
Speaker 4: want running negotiations less than JD.

4195
03:41:05,160 --> 03:41:05,440
Speaker 5: Vance.

4196
03:41:05,520 --> 03:41:10,400
Speaker 4: But like it's it's not great. It's not no, it's

4197
03:41:10,440 --> 03:41:12,600
Speaker 4: not great. It's there's no way to sugarcoat it here.

4198
03:41:13,280 --> 03:41:16,200
Speaker 2: It says something about how much fucking Kushner screwed the

4199
03:41:16,240 --> 03:41:18,240
Speaker 2: pooch that Iran is like, yeah, I get.

4200
03:41:18,200 --> 03:41:21,320
Speaker 4: Vance in here, bring bringing Vance, You get JD.

4201
03:41:21,520 --> 03:41:23,440
Speaker 2: Vance in here. I don't want to talk to that

4202
03:41:23,560 --> 03:41:24,280
Speaker 2: other guy again.

4203
03:41:24,680 --> 03:41:27,200
Speaker 4: There is like a legitimate problem they're having, which is

4204
03:41:27,280 --> 03:41:28,880
Speaker 4: like there's been a lot of jokes about how like

4205
03:41:29,000 --> 03:41:31,080
Speaker 4: all the DEI firings are like fucking the but like

4206
03:41:31,160 --> 03:41:33,200
Speaker 4: it actually is where there's like a whole bunch of

4207
03:41:33,200 --> 03:41:36,160
Speaker 4: the embassy staff people like got fired because they weren't

4208
03:41:36,200 --> 03:41:38,120
Speaker 4: white and because the Dose people were just like fuck it.

4209
03:41:38,440 --> 03:41:41,640
Speaker 4: And now it's like, I mean this was a situation already.

4210
03:41:41,720 --> 03:41:45,640
Speaker 4: The US government's, like experts on on other countries tend

4211
03:41:45,760 --> 03:41:46,400
Speaker 4: to be like.

4212
03:41:47,160 --> 03:41:48,640
Speaker 2: I mean, if you look at what happened in the

4213
03:41:48,720 --> 03:41:51,000
Speaker 2: lead up to the Iraq War, anyone who knew anything

4214
03:41:51,160 --> 03:41:54,280
Speaker 2: about Iraq as an actual s subject matter expert was

4215
03:41:54,320 --> 03:41:58,160
Speaker 2: basically isolated and cut out of like the planning because

4216
03:41:58,480 --> 03:42:00,599
Speaker 2: they were all saying, don't do what you do, it's

4217
03:42:00,640 --> 03:42:02,760
Speaker 2: not gonna work well.

4218
03:42:02,800 --> 03:42:05,320
Speaker 4: And and and even even even in administrations we regard

4219
03:42:05,360 --> 03:42:07,320
Speaker 4: as competent. Like I I randomly, like when I was

4220
03:42:07,360 --> 03:42:09,520
Speaker 4: at You'd reach Chicago, like going to school, I met

4221
03:42:09,640 --> 03:42:12,880
Speaker 4: the guy who was who was set Calm Syria analyst

4222
03:42:13,560 --> 03:42:15,440
Speaker 4: like right when at the beginning of this year in revolution,

4223
03:42:15,520 --> 03:42:17,520
Speaker 4: and he was like reporting to Barack Obama about what

4224
03:42:17,680 --> 03:42:19,600
Speaker 4: was going on, and it was just like some guy

4225
03:42:19,760 --> 03:42:21,119
Speaker 4: like it was it was it was like some guy

4226
03:42:21,120 --> 03:42:24,320
Speaker 4: who'd gotten like an undergrad degree, right, yeah, like and

4227
03:42:24,600 --> 03:42:26,520
Speaker 4: even those guys are getting like it was just like

4228
03:42:26,600 --> 03:42:29,520
Speaker 4: some random asshole with I mean, like he's like knew

4229
03:42:29,600 --> 03:42:31,400
Speaker 4: his stuff, but he wasn't like a he wasn't like

4230
03:42:31,480 --> 03:42:35,480
Speaker 4: an expert on this, right, And even those people are gone,

4231
03:42:35,520 --> 03:42:37,080
Speaker 4: And so now you're dealing with those people who are

4232
03:42:37,120 --> 03:42:40,200
Speaker 4: supposedly running these negotiations. You just have like literally no idea.

4233
03:42:40,240 --> 03:42:42,440
Speaker 4: What's going on? Because they fired every non white person,

4234
03:42:43,080 --> 03:42:47,199
Speaker 4: so it's just catastrophic for the entire world.

4235
03:42:48,480 --> 03:42:52,520
Speaker 3: Yep, cool, one more ad break and we will return

4236
03:42:52,760 --> 03:42:56,120
Speaker 3: for a final segment giving an update on a friend

4237
03:42:56,280 --> 03:43:14,400
Speaker 3: of the pod, Gregory Thethno oh, Greg, all right, we

4238
03:43:14,480 --> 03:43:19,240
Speaker 3: are back. Unfortunately, it's time for our reoccurring Bavino segment,

4239
03:43:19,360 --> 03:43:20,280
Speaker 3: hopefully the last.

4240
03:43:20,520 --> 03:43:22,520
Speaker 2: God what's boving on?

4241
03:43:24,440 --> 03:43:26,680
Speaker 3: He just had a very interesting interview with The New

4242
03:43:26,760 --> 03:43:29,600
Speaker 3: York Times he did in which he said that before

4243
03:43:29,640 --> 03:43:33,400
Speaker 3: he was demoted from his role as Commander at Large,

4244
03:43:34,440 --> 03:43:39,240
Speaker 3: he had a plan at DHS to deport one hundred

4245
03:43:39,480 --> 03:43:45,440
Speaker 3: million people, something that DHS then tweeted about with a

4246
03:43:45,720 --> 03:43:50,360
Speaker 3: silly little graphic that they stole from another artist. The

4247
03:43:50,440 --> 03:43:53,560
Speaker 3: New York Times reported quote mister Bavino said he had

4248
03:43:53,600 --> 03:43:57,680
Speaker 3: a master plan that was in motion before his exile

4249
03:43:57,840 --> 03:44:03,560
Speaker 3: back to Eli Centro. Have neutralized protesters, he said, and

4250
03:44:03,720 --> 03:44:07,960
Speaker 3: made it possible to deport one hundred million people. That

4251
03:44:08,040 --> 03:44:09,920
Speaker 3: as a goal that the Department of Home and Security

4252
03:44:10,160 --> 03:44:13,000
Speaker 3: has widely promoted. If it sounds extreme, it's because it's

4253
03:44:13,040 --> 03:44:15,880
Speaker 3: nearly ten times the estimated number of undocumented people in

4254
03:44:16,000 --> 03:44:18,560
Speaker 3: the country. It's also more than a quarter of the

4255
03:44:18,800 --> 03:44:21,240
Speaker 3: entire US population unquote.

4256
03:44:21,520 --> 03:44:21,760
Speaker 4: Yep.

4257
03:44:22,920 --> 03:44:26,680
Speaker 3: Gregory is also quoted in this piece of saying, I

4258
03:44:26,840 --> 03:44:30,320
Speaker 3: wish I'd caught even more illegal aliens. I mean, we

4259
03:44:30,440 --> 03:44:33,480
Speaker 3: went as hard as we could, but there's always a

4260
03:44:33,600 --> 03:44:39,800
Speaker 3: creative and innovative solution to catching more unquote. God would

4261
03:44:39,800 --> 03:44:42,080
Speaker 3: have been nice for a journalist to follow up.

4262
03:44:42,080 --> 03:44:46,320
Speaker 4: On what he meant by that, yep, yep, mm hmm.

4263
03:44:46,840 --> 03:44:48,200
Speaker 4: I want to talk a little bit about that one

4264
03:44:48,280 --> 03:44:50,920
Speaker 4: hundred million number, because sure there was a New York

4265
03:44:50,920 --> 03:44:54,480
Speaker 4: Times report where Trump said in one meeting to you

4266
03:44:54,560 --> 03:44:56,760
Speaker 4: the twenty twenty four campaign, mister Trump said that if

4267
03:44:56,760 --> 03:44:58,680
Speaker 4: it was up to mister Miller, there would only be

4268
03:44:58,760 --> 03:45:01,480
Speaker 4: one hundred million people in this country and they would

4269
03:45:01,480 --> 03:45:03,400
Speaker 4: all look like mister Miller. Wow.

4270
03:45:03,600 --> 03:45:06,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's he's not lying, Yeah, you.

4271
03:45:06,959 --> 03:45:07,600
Speaker 5: Know, and he he.

4272
03:45:07,720 --> 03:45:09,760
Speaker 4: I guess has the numbers reversed in that in that

4273
03:45:09,840 --> 03:45:11,879
Speaker 4: the Bovino one is to port one hundred million people,

4274
03:45:11,879 --> 03:45:15,120
Speaker 4: which is the one that's been floating around in sort

4275
03:45:15,160 --> 03:45:17,760
Speaker 4: of like right wind circles more and this one was

4276
03:45:17,800 --> 03:45:19,120
Speaker 4: that there's only one hundred million left.

4277
03:45:19,600 --> 03:45:23,000
Speaker 3: But it's completely disconnected from reality, and like the economic

4278
03:45:23,120 --> 03:45:27,600
Speaker 3: reasons for why. Yeah, these deportations are even something disconnected

4279
03:45:27,640 --> 03:45:32,240
Speaker 3: from the economic reasons behind this sort of immigration enforcement. Yeah,

4280
03:45:32,280 --> 03:45:35,000
Speaker 3: there's just no logistical capacity.

4281
03:45:35,240 --> 03:45:37,400
Speaker 4: No, they're like, it's it's I mean, yeah, it would

4282
03:45:37,440 --> 03:45:39,800
Speaker 4: be one of the largest ethnic cleansings we've ever seen.

4283
03:45:40,240 --> 03:45:42,320
Speaker 4: But it's it's a thing that like people like Miller

4284
03:45:42,560 --> 03:45:45,640
Speaker 4: and the Boveno want. This is kind of what we've

4285
03:45:45,680 --> 03:45:47,880
Speaker 4: seen a lot in thro administration between the people who

4286
03:45:47,920 --> 03:45:50,320
Speaker 4: actually want the economy to work and the people who

4287
03:45:50,720 --> 03:45:53,320
Speaker 4: have like some other ideological goal. Yeah, because there's the

4288
03:45:53,360 --> 03:45:56,400
Speaker 4: people who just want the white ethno state, right, and

4289
03:45:56,480 --> 03:45:59,600
Speaker 4: that's sort of the Boveno like Miller wing, and then

4290
03:45:59,640 --> 03:46:02,879
Speaker 4: there's everyone else like Scott Besting, like the Treasury people

4291
03:46:02,879 --> 03:46:05,960
Speaker 4: who were like holy shit, like yeah, we want we

4292
03:46:06,040 --> 03:46:07,880
Speaker 4: want there that we want that we we we we

4293
03:46:08,040 --> 03:46:10,680
Speaker 4: need the permanently subjucated immigant under class. You can't deport

4294
03:46:11,280 --> 03:46:13,440
Speaker 4: one hundred and well this wouldn't even be the immigrant

4295
03:46:13,480 --> 03:46:16,720
Speaker 4: under class, right, This is this is like most of

4296
03:46:16,840 --> 03:46:20,360
Speaker 4: the norn white people in the US, right, who who

4297
03:46:20,400 --> 03:46:23,520
Speaker 4: they're talking about deporting? Who are just you know, people

4298
03:46:23,640 --> 03:46:26,480
Speaker 4: here like me and obviously like we don't know if

4299
03:46:26,520 --> 03:46:30,080
Speaker 4: Bavino's just lying about this, because who knows it's Bovino.

4300
03:46:30,360 --> 03:46:33,800
Speaker 3: But yeah, what this master plan actually looks like or

4301
03:46:33,800 --> 03:46:37,800
Speaker 3: what it included also not expounded upon something that the

4302
03:46:37,879 --> 03:46:40,160
Speaker 3: journalists at least did not get an answer out of

4303
03:46:40,480 --> 03:46:45,880
Speaker 3: that was then reported. No, it's unclear, but during Bavino's

4304
03:46:45,959 --> 03:46:48,960
Speaker 3: like rain at border patrol, this number was something that

4305
03:46:49,040 --> 03:46:52,680
Speaker 3: d just mentioned as a gold multiple times. For an example,

4306
03:46:53,040 --> 03:46:57,720
Speaker 3: earlier this month, Louisiana Senator John Kennedy was questioning David J. Ber,

4307
03:46:58,120 --> 03:47:01,720
Speaker 3: director of Immigration Studies at the Cato Institute, about his

4308
03:47:01,800 --> 03:47:05,720
Speaker 3: criticism of DHS, and Senator Kennedy read a quote from

4309
03:47:05,879 --> 03:47:07,359
Speaker 3: Beer's social media.

4310
03:47:07,560 --> 03:47:13,560
Speaker 19: They referring to Republicans think they control their way into

4311
03:47:13,760 --> 03:47:16,440
Speaker 19: US accepting ethnic cleansing.

4312
03:47:18,440 --> 03:47:20,200
Speaker 8: End quote your your words, not mind?

4313
03:47:20,240 --> 03:47:21,320
Speaker 6: Did I read that correctly?

4314
03:47:21,879 --> 03:47:22,920
Speaker 2: That was in regard to.

4315
03:47:25,240 --> 03:47:29,320
Speaker 6: Post about advocating one hundred million deportations. That is what

4316
03:47:29,520 --> 03:47:32,920
Speaker 6: DHS has tweeted from their own account. One hundred million

4317
03:47:32,959 --> 03:47:36,080
Speaker 6: deprit parts that would be ethnic cleansing. You would be

4318
03:47:36,720 --> 03:47:41,199
Speaker 6: learning one third of the country. So yes, there are people,

4319
03:47:41,320 --> 03:47:43,920
Speaker 6: we got homeland security.

4320
03:47:44,000 --> 03:47:45,199
Speaker 2: I think this is hyperbolic.

4321
03:47:45,280 --> 03:47:46,560
Speaker 5: Give me thirty more seconds.

4322
03:47:46,879 --> 03:47:50,360
Speaker 6: I think advocating one hundred million pavications.

4323
03:47:49,879 --> 03:47:50,800
Speaker 14: In having fun.

4324
03:47:52,200 --> 03:47:55,560
Speaker 4: On February he really thought he ate with that one.

4325
03:47:55,680 --> 03:47:57,720
Speaker 2: He was really he was really thinking he was going

4326
03:47:57,800 --> 03:47:58,400
Speaker 2: to dine out on that.

4327
03:47:58,560 --> 03:48:03,560
Speaker 4: Huh Wow. What is rattling around in your skull that

4328
03:48:03,680 --> 03:48:06,720
Speaker 4: you listen to that and think you want, like, what

4329
03:48:06,879 --> 03:48:07,480
Speaker 4: is happening here?

4330
03:48:07,920 --> 03:48:12,199
Speaker 2: God, you're having fun having fun with that? Huh okay.

4331
03:48:14,560 --> 03:48:19,000
Speaker 3: Speaking of the Department of Homeland Security, there is a

4332
03:48:19,200 --> 03:48:22,360
Speaker 3: new big boss in town. Former Senator Mark Wayne Mullen

4333
03:48:22,520 --> 03:48:25,720
Speaker 3: has been sworn in as the new DHS Secretary. During

4334
03:48:25,800 --> 03:48:30,879
Speaker 3: his confirmation hearings, Mullen said he regrets calling Alex pretty

4335
03:48:31,240 --> 03:48:35,440
Speaker 3: a quote deranged individual who came to cause Max damage.

4336
03:48:36,440 --> 03:48:39,400
Speaker 19: Those words probably should have been retracted. I shouldn't have

4337
03:48:39,440 --> 03:48:41,920
Speaker 19: said that, and Secretary, I wouldn't. The investigation is ongoing

4338
03:48:42,600 --> 03:48:45,600
Speaker 19: and there is, Like I said, there's sometimes going to

4339
03:48:45,640 --> 03:48:48,040
Speaker 19: make mistake and I own it that one. I went

4340
03:48:48,080 --> 03:48:51,720
Speaker 19: out there too fast. I was responding immediately without the facts.

4341
03:48:51,840 --> 03:48:54,200
Speaker 19: That's my fault. That won't happen as secretary. So you

4342
03:48:54,720 --> 03:48:57,600
Speaker 19: regret that statement, I already said that, Yes, sir, would

4343
03:48:57,640 --> 03:48:59,879
Speaker 19: you want to apologize to the family.

4344
03:48:59,680 --> 03:49:01,720
Speaker 5: Of preddy Well.

4345
03:49:01,959 --> 03:49:03,760
Speaker 19: Sir, I just said I regret those statements.

4346
03:49:04,840 --> 03:49:06,120
Speaker 5: Is that the same as an apology?

4347
03:49:06,840 --> 03:49:09,360
Speaker 19: I haven't seen the investigation. We'll let the investigation go through,

4348
03:49:09,440 --> 03:49:12,160
Speaker 19: and if I'm proven wrong, then I will absolutely.

4349
03:49:12,600 --> 03:49:13,800
Speaker 2: The same as an apology.

4350
03:49:15,120 --> 03:49:19,640
Speaker 4: Oh God, man, just speak like a person.

4351
03:49:20,640 --> 03:49:22,640
Speaker 2: We got to bring mister Rogers in here to tell

4352
03:49:22,640 --> 03:49:25,200
Speaker 2: you what an apology is. Come on, bro, yes.

4353
03:49:25,440 --> 03:49:27,520
Speaker 22: I also there's a lot of discourse about his name

4354
03:49:27,600 --> 03:49:28,320
Speaker 22: being Mark Wayne.

4355
03:49:28,400 --> 03:49:30,200
Speaker 4: You can't tell me that guy doesn't look like a

4356
03:49:30,320 --> 03:49:30,840
Speaker 4: Mark Wayne.

4357
03:49:30,880 --> 03:49:31,800
Speaker 2: He looks like a Mark wayn.

4358
03:49:31,880 --> 03:49:33,720
Speaker 4: He looks like a Mark Wayne. Thank you so much,

4359
03:49:34,880 --> 03:49:37,360
Speaker 4: Jesus Christ. Just say sorry, dude.

4360
03:49:37,720 --> 03:49:42,080
Speaker 3: Later on in this same hearing, Mullen defended the actions

4361
03:49:42,080 --> 03:49:45,080
Speaker 3: of the officer who killed Renee Good, saying, quote, it's

4362
03:49:45,200 --> 03:49:47,600
Speaker 3: very clear that an officer had to make a split

4363
03:49:47,920 --> 03:49:52,800
Speaker 3: decision in that case. Throughout these lyrics, Mullen reiterated that

4364
03:49:53,160 --> 03:49:56,360
Speaker 3: he wants to keep the agency out of the news. Quote,

4365
03:49:56,760 --> 03:49:59,000
Speaker 3: my goal in six months is that we are not

4366
03:49:59,280 --> 03:50:05,160
Speaker 3: in the story every single day. When questioned about what

4367
03:50:05,440 --> 03:50:08,160
Speaker 3: ICE reforms he would be willing to put into law,

4368
03:50:08,720 --> 03:50:11,920
Speaker 3: Mullen said that a quote unquote better approach would be

4369
03:50:12,240 --> 03:50:14,120
Speaker 3: working with local municipalities.

4370
03:50:14,600 --> 03:50:17,560
Speaker 19: I would love to see ICE become a transport more

4371
03:50:17,680 --> 03:50:20,440
Speaker 19: than the front line if we get back, if we

4372
03:50:20,480 --> 03:50:22,680
Speaker 19: can get back into just simply working with law enforcement.

4373
03:50:22,760 --> 03:50:25,360
Speaker 19: We're going to them and we're picking up these criminals

4374
03:50:25,680 --> 03:50:26,360
Speaker 19: from their jail.

4375
03:50:26,440 --> 03:50:26,600
Speaker 5: One.

4376
03:50:26,920 --> 03:50:29,720
Speaker 19: We're going to reimburse them for having the person there.

4377
03:50:30,280 --> 03:50:32,760
Speaker 19: And a partnership is violent important. I don't think there

4378
03:50:32,840 --> 03:50:34,800
Speaker 19: needs to be a wall to change that. I think

4379
03:50:34,920 --> 03:50:38,800
Speaker 19: I can work within what is there. But there's an

4380
03:50:38,880 --> 03:50:42,440
Speaker 19: approach that can happen, but we've got to have partners.

4381
03:50:42,320 --> 03:50:45,760
Speaker 3: What he's trying to do here is essentially blame ICE

4382
03:50:45,880 --> 03:50:50,080
Speaker 3: overreach on sanctuary city policies, saying that ICE would need

4383
03:50:50,120 --> 03:50:52,280
Speaker 3: to be in all these places being on the ground

4384
03:50:52,840 --> 03:50:56,960
Speaker 3: if sanctuary cities would just cooperate with ICE for removal operations.

4385
03:50:57,480 --> 03:51:01,760
Speaker 3: In response to a question about ICE and cbp illegally

4386
03:51:02,080 --> 03:51:05,920
Speaker 3: entering people's homes, Mullen said, quote, we will not enter

4387
03:51:06,040 --> 03:51:09,040
Speaker 3: a home or a place of business without a judicial

4388
03:51:09,160 --> 03:51:13,200
Speaker 3: warrant unless we're pursuing an individual that runs into a

4389
03:51:13,240 --> 03:51:16,160
Speaker 3: place of business or residence or a house.

4390
03:51:16,640 --> 03:51:17,120
Speaker 4: Unquote.

4391
03:51:17,720 --> 03:51:21,480
Speaker 3: If this is true, this definitely is a partial movement

4392
03:51:21,720 --> 03:51:24,520
Speaker 3: still with this exception, but a partial movement from the

4393
03:51:25,080 --> 03:51:30,480
Speaker 3: so called administrative warrants which became popular under Christine Nome,

4394
03:51:31,280 --> 03:51:37,160
Speaker 3: which big if like it, I think, as like James

4395
03:51:37,200 --> 03:51:39,040
Speaker 3: has said before, I think there is like that the

4396
03:51:39,160 --> 03:51:41,920
Speaker 3: wind is changing a little bit, but I mean it

4397
03:51:42,000 --> 03:51:44,400
Speaker 3: could very easily change back. The other way is it

4398
03:51:44,520 --> 03:51:47,680
Speaker 3: is simply too soon to say. And obviously none of

4399
03:51:47,760 --> 03:51:50,520
Speaker 3: these things will be like satisfactory. ICE should not exist

4400
03:51:50,560 --> 03:51:54,160
Speaker 3: as an agency, But it is interesting to see the

4401
03:51:54,160 --> 03:51:58,880
Speaker 3: Trump administration slowly adjust towards pressure being put on ICE

4402
03:51:59,080 --> 03:52:03,520
Speaker 3: from the public. At Mullin's swearing in ceremony, Trump said, quote,

4403
03:52:04,080 --> 03:52:08,000
Speaker 3: generally speaking, Mark Wayne would be very much in favor of.

4404
03:52:08,080 --> 03:52:11,040
Speaker 4: What I'm in favor of. He might be worse. He

4405
03:52:11,160 --> 03:52:14,360
Speaker 4: might be worse than me. Oh no, So.

4406
03:52:14,560 --> 03:52:17,160
Speaker 18: Generally speaking, I think I can answer that Mark Wayne

4407
03:52:17,160 --> 03:52:20,000
Speaker 18: would be very much in favor of what I'm in

4408
03:52:20,120 --> 03:52:20,480
Speaker 18: favor of.

4409
03:52:20,520 --> 03:52:21,640
Speaker 2: Would you say that's right, Mark?

4410
03:52:21,760 --> 03:52:23,040
Speaker 5: I can't think of too many things.

4411
03:52:23,320 --> 03:52:24,120
Speaker 4: He might be worse.

4412
03:52:24,360 --> 03:52:25,320
Speaker 18: He might be worse than me.

4413
03:52:25,480 --> 03:52:28,040
Speaker 4: That's my look at his wife is saying that's right.

4414
03:52:28,680 --> 03:52:31,800
Speaker 18: But uh so, yeah, he's going to be great.

4415
03:52:32,280 --> 03:52:35,000
Speaker 4: So we'll see, we'll see what that turns out to be.

4416
03:52:35,360 --> 03:52:41,600
Speaker 4: Great stuff, great stuff. These people are so bizarre, like

4417
03:52:41,720 --> 03:52:51,000
Speaker 4: they can't talk. They sound ridiculous. Nightmare. That's my only take.

4418
03:52:51,280 --> 03:52:53,680
Speaker 4: They can't do nor they can't human.

4419
03:52:55,080 --> 03:52:58,360
Speaker 3: If you would like to send us a news tip

4420
03:52:58,560 --> 03:53:02,800
Speaker 3: relevant for news purposes, you can do so at cool

4421
03:53:02,880 --> 03:53:04,560
Speaker 3: Zone Tips at proton dot me.

4422
03:53:05,840 --> 03:53:10,320
Speaker 4: Again for news related tips, only put a transgirl on

4423
03:53:10,400 --> 03:53:10,760
Speaker 4: your couch.

4424
03:53:11,680 --> 03:53:14,240
Speaker 2: We reported the news, We reported the news.

4425
03:53:14,400 --> 03:53:15,320
Speaker 5: We reported the news.

4426
03:53:21,440 --> 03:53:24,560
Speaker 2: Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

4427
03:53:24,680 --> 03:53:26,560
Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the Universe.

4428
03:53:27,320 --> 03:53:29,800
Speaker 22: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

4429
03:53:30,000 --> 03:53:33,040
Speaker 22: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

4430
03:53:33,120 --> 03:53:37,080
Speaker 22: foolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio.

4431
03:53:36,440 --> 03:53:39,600
Speaker 4: App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

4432
03:53:40,120 --> 03:53:42,000
Speaker 22: You can now find sources for It Could Happen here,

4433
03:53:42,080 --> 03:53:45,000
Speaker 22: listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.