1 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Emily and this is Bridget and you're 2 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: listening to stuff mom never told you. And today I'm 3 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: so excited to talk about one of my favorite topics, 4 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: which is punk rock and Riot Girl. If you've listened 5 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: to Kristen and Caroline tackle this topic, UM, We're gonna 6 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:33,199 Speaker 1: be doing it a little bit different, so you can 7 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: think of this as really a companion piece to the 8 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 1: really great episode they put out um called Women and 9 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: Punk Um. I have been a long term love lover 10 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: of all things punk, really all things in music. In college, 11 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: I was actually a radio DJ out of my local 12 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: college radio station, w z m B, Greenville, North Carolina. 13 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: Oh my god, you've been behind the mic for a while. 14 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: No wonder you look such such a natural for the podcast. Yes, 15 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: I was DJ. Cole Slaw was my handle and that 16 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: is a reference to Enan Cold Slaw from the comic 17 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: book ghost World. And I DJ a radio show only 18 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 1: punk music. So I've been a big punk fan for 19 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 1: a long time. I've always loved Riot Girl, and today 20 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: I am so thrilled to talk through some of the 21 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: ways that black women have kind of sadly been erased 22 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: in the history of punk music and the history of retelling. Um, 23 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: the story behind what you might think of as riot 24 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: girl and why that is. Yeah, and punk rock, I 25 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: think is typically thought of as a white thing. It is, right, 26 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: or at least it's predominantly even like punk rock of 27 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: the eighties and nineties. We think of a lot of 28 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: British bands that come to mind, like the Clash, what 29 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: is It, the Sex Pistols, and even into the sort 30 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: of nineties grunge, which I know is not technically the 31 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: same exact thing as punk. I'm no punk expert, but 32 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: I think of a lot of angry white people totally 33 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 1: and I think I think that perception does persist. And 34 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: I think that's fair because punk definitely has roots in 35 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 1: this hyper masculine um response to sort of white working 36 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 1: class frustration, particularly in the UK. So it's totally fair. 37 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean that there wasn't a place for 38 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: black musicians, particularly black women, in these movements. Um. There's 39 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: this great quote from Day's magazine. There's no denying that 40 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 1: the UK punk scene was in part driven by the 41 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: anger and isolation felt by white working class But punk 42 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: music is not the sole property of whiteness. Even though 43 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: too many people of my generation. It may appear that 44 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: way at first glance. Like many fests of pop culture, 45 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: it's historical image has been whitewashed. When you think about 46 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: punk's history, its bands like the Class, the sex Pistols, 47 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 1: the Ramones that immediately come to mind, and so I 48 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: think it's important that even though yes, it may have 49 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: these roots in white frustrations of the working class, punk 50 00:02:55,560 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: music has the same kind of roots in black communities. Yeah, 51 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 1: and in so many ways, as we've talked about music 52 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 1: and cultural appropriation, the past, o'miley comes to mind. But 53 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:11,559 Speaker 1: what I find really interesting about punk here is that 54 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:13,919 Speaker 1: that article goes on to say that in many ways 55 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: black people were the original counterculture figures, and in so 56 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: many ways like rock and roll, has its roots in 57 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 1: black culture completely. I mean, if you've taken, you know, 58 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:30,239 Speaker 1: classes on on anthro cultural anthropology and where punk and 59 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: rock and roll come from, it really undeniably does have 60 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: roots in black musicians, going back to folks like Chuck 61 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 1: Berry and bou Didley. These are folks who were really improvising, 62 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: really trying a lot of new things, and a lot 63 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: of why things like rock and roll and the later punk, 64 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: why they stuck around so so fervently. So, for instance, 65 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: there's always been this really obvious connection between punk music 66 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: and you know, musical genres like reggae. I think that 67 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: you can definitely hear their influence in there. And it's 68 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: just like this journalist Charlie birken Hurst notes, the spirit 69 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: of punk is present and always has been in music 70 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: made by black people. So really, when you're thinking of punk, 71 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: is this white art form, it can just as easily 72 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: be said to be a black art form as well. Yeah, 73 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: so that is interesting how when you think of punk 74 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 1: rock in particular, it has been whitewashed, even though the 75 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: roots of punk rock came from a lot of black artists. 76 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: If you think about rock and roll writ large, there's 77 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 1: a lot of whiteness associated with rock and roll and 78 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 1: with its spinoff of punk rock. But in reality, a 79 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: lot of that cultural appropriation started way back in the fifties. 80 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 1: So n y Use cultural anthropologist professor Maureen Mahn explains 81 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: in this book what Are You Doing Here? A Black 82 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,720 Speaker 1: Woman's Life and Liberation in Heavy Metal. She says that 83 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 1: it you know this, as more white people started to 84 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: be attracted to rock and roll, black people started to 85 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: think this is for them, not for us. There were 86 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: always black people participating and present, but they had started 87 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 1: to be outnumbered, so beyond the year numbering, white rock 88 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:08,280 Speaker 1: musicians often had more success performing songs originally recorded by 89 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: black blues, R and B and rock musicians. I'm thinking Elvis, right, 90 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 1: Elvis became he was the original Miley right, Like, he 91 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: became controversial, and he became known for the ways in 92 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:25,919 Speaker 1: which that white Southern dude was basically embracing artistry that 93 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: had originally really been a black thing. Right. And if 94 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 1: you've ever seen the movie dream Girls, which by the way, 95 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 1: if you haven't seen it, it's so good. Um. They 96 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 1: illustrate this so nicely with the idea of they have 97 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:41,160 Speaker 1: this soulful song that this black girl group you know sings, 98 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: and that when that song is re recorded by white 99 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 1: teenagers that sound very bubbly, it becomes an instant smash hit. Um. 100 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: And so I think, you know, there are so many 101 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,280 Speaker 1: illustrations of that throughout culture. But really it's it's just 102 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: like Maureene Mahomes says, this idea that it becomes something 103 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: that you then associate with whiteness, whether it actually has 104 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 1: roots in whiteness alone, irregardless of that, it just becomes 105 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 1: something that you think of as white. And I think, 106 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: as someone who has been a long, you know, lover 107 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 1: of all kinds of music, but specifically punk, that certainly 108 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: jibs with my personal experience. You know know, I grew up 109 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:22,160 Speaker 1: feeling very isolated being like a black punk fan, particularly 110 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: a black a black female punk fan. But I grew 111 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 1: up feeling really self conscious for liking something that was 112 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: quote unquote for white kids. Um, I grew up. I 113 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:32,839 Speaker 1: wouldn't say I was teased for it, but I was 114 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 1: never very open about my love of punk, but I 115 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: never felt comfortable talking about it. When I would buy 116 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: CDs at the record store, I always remember feeling this 117 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:45,919 Speaker 1: kind of weird sense of shame or I would sometimes, 118 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: this is so embarrassing, but I would sometimes ask, UM. 119 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: I remember I was buying a Wheezer CD, and I asked, 120 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,559 Speaker 1: do you guys offer gift wrapping? Because I didn't want 121 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: the teller to be like, oh, why is this black 122 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 1: girl buying a Wheezer CD. It's definitely been part of 123 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 1: my and I think from the research, you actually see 124 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: a lot of black kids who grow up feeling this way. Um, 125 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: there's been an entire movement started called the afro Punk 126 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: movement that started as a collection of message boards online 127 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: or other black punk fans to find each other and 128 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 1: connect and swap stories and swap zines and swap CDs. 129 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: Now that whole movement has grown into an international phenomenon. 130 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: They have they have a global festival, they have festivals 131 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: in South Africa and New York, Atlanta, Brooklyn, and it's 132 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: really taken off as this cultural thing. Now it's sort 133 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: of it started as sort of this thing that a 134 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: lot of black kids felt kind of anxiety around, but 135 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: now it's sort of the who's who of like the 136 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: black glam glam folks you see lots of You know, 137 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: there was a spread and Vogue magazine of the various 138 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: fashions at afro punk and performs there. It's now it's 139 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: just like very hip, cool thing. But in the beginning, 140 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: it definitely did not feel that way. So would you 141 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: say afro punk is it different genre or is it 142 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 1: a reclaiming of a genre that had been whitewashed. I 143 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: think it's a reclaiming and I think it's sort of 144 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: carding out space for these black punk fans who have 145 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: long felt isolated, ignored, erased, or just felt kind of 146 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: weird about liking something that has been associated so heavily 147 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: with whiteness. It's a reclaiming and a way of opening 148 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: up space for those folks to connect in the met 149 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: each other and feel good about it. So basically, what 150 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: it comes down to is that black folks aren't the 151 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:30,679 Speaker 1: people that we talk about when we talk about punk music. 152 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: And we're gonna talk about why that's such a big 153 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 1: problem after this quick break and we're back. So the 154 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: erasure of people of color from depictions of the punk 155 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: movement really came to a head pretty recently, and it's 156 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 1: criticism that the recent Riot Girl collection at n y 157 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: U s Fail Library and a recent book of the 158 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: same name chronicling the movement that all but erased black women. Now, 159 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 1: Christen and Caroline again, they have this great episod all 160 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 1: about the Riot Girl movement, and they mentioned this collection, 161 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: this n y U collection in that episode. So wait, 162 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: can you back up and explain to me because I 163 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: had not really heard the term riot girl before today's episode. 164 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 1: So what what is riot girl all about? Yeah? So, 165 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:18,199 Speaker 1: according to Raise and Riot Girl from a journal out 166 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: of the University of Washington's Department of Gender Studies. Quote 167 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: Riot Girls an international underground feminist movement, mainly youth oriented, 168 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: that initially emerged from the West Coast American alternative and 169 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: punk music scene. Um, you can think of that as 170 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: bands like The Slits, the Raincoats, Heavens. To Betsy, this 171 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: was really and Carol Christen and Caroline shout out to 172 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 1: them because they break this down so nicely. This was 173 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: really a movement about young women getting to college feeling 174 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: a little bit frustrated with the lack of ability to 175 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: talk about things they were dealing with, things like sexual assault, 176 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: things like sexism, and expressing those frustrations through music. And 177 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: in this case, riot Girl is spelled with a bunch 178 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: of rs in there, right, so it's like a growl girl. Yeah. 179 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: So these are like angry young women screaming, slash shouting, 180 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: slash thinging there there feels, which I think is a 181 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: really cool artistic expression of uh, totally understandable and righteous anchor. Yeah, 182 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 1: I mean, I I'm just to be clear, I love 183 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 1: Riot Girl. I think a lot of what we're gonna 184 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: talk about in today's episode critiques and pushes back on 185 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: the whiteness of the spaces that Riot Girl presented. But 186 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: I really found my voice through a lot of these 187 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 1: screaming young women, through folks like Kathleen Hannah was one 188 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: of my idols, through bands like Latigra. These were groups 189 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: that that really were seminal in my development. So I 190 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: don't want to tell off like I'm trashing them, because 191 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: I'm definitely not. But I think it's important that we 192 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: sort of think back to the criticisms of the movement 193 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 1: and why certain women maybe didn't feel as involved as 194 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 1: they maybe could have or should have, and it actually 195 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: really reflects the fraction within the feminist space more broadly. Right. 196 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: I think we've talked on this and this show, and 197 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 1: by the way, I think we're screaming angry women on 198 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:12,439 Speaker 1: the podcast Variety on occasion too. So I fully identify 199 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: with this artistry in this art form. But you know, 200 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 1: we've talked on this show before about the friction when 201 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: it comes to movements to end racism and movements to 202 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: end sexism and the importance of intersectionality, and this is 203 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: really taking that intersectional feminist lens and bringing it to 204 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: the punk music scene totally basically the same arguments that 205 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 1: black feminists and white feminists are having today and online 206 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 1: spaces in academia. Those same arguments were happening on the 207 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: mosh pit, you might say, during the riot Girl movement, 208 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: things like yeah, I mean, oh my god, I forgot 209 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: about that. Have you ever been in I've yeah, I've like, 210 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 1: not always consensually like I've been. I've born witness to amash, 211 00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: but I've been on the outer ring of a mosh pit. Man, 212 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: I've been in a couple of mosh pits. I'll never 213 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: forget seeing a friend of mine break her nose taking 214 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 1: an elbow to the face at a no age. I 215 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:13,839 Speaker 1: didn't take an elbow to the nose. I saw my friends, 216 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 1: which is hardcore, was at the end of your concert. 217 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:21,839 Speaker 1: I think she was like, we have to leave right now. 218 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:24,559 Speaker 1: I'm like gushing blood from my as like, wa, I 219 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: want to see it. I want to stay. Oh my gosh. 220 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 1: So really, these issues of intersectionality, we're really coming to 221 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:33,839 Speaker 1: a head in the riot cral spaces. The same things 222 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 1: that I think a lot of feminists still grapple with today, 223 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: things like um issues of the white middle class women 224 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 1: being elevated over those of women of color, things of 225 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,199 Speaker 1: having to choose, feeling like you have to choose between 226 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: your race and your gender as opposed to having that 227 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:50,079 Speaker 1: be you know, an intersectional framework. These are the same 228 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: arguments we're having today, and they were the same arguments 229 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: playing out in the riot gral scene. That was fascinating 230 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: to see how it applies to totally different subsets of 231 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: society of the artistic and musical variety. Right. And this 232 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: article by Gabby bess and broadly called alternatives to Alternatives, 233 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: the Black Girls riot ignored, uh, really underscores the experience 234 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 1: U being let's say, a young black punk fan like you, 235 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: Bridget and reading these things like Newsweek article that literally 236 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:26,679 Speaker 1: defined the movement, the riot girl movement as something that 237 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 1: was quote young, white, suburban and middle class, basically literally 238 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 1: erasing black women or women who didn't fit any of 239 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 1: those categorizations. Um. And it just sort of confirmed the 240 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: explicit whiteness that was brought to the riot girl scene 241 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: by journalists who are covering it and describing it to 242 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: those who might not have been in it exactly. And 243 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: a line that resonated with me so much from that article. 244 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: There were black women who invite with the spirit of 245 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 1: punk in their bones outside the Riot Girl movement as well. 246 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 1: These women carved out their own feminist pathways into the 247 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: hardcore scene precisely because they were rendered invisible by the 248 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,200 Speaker 1: Riot Girl movement. And what I think jumps out at 249 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:10,959 Speaker 1: me at that quote is that because black women were 250 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 1: marginalized both by the larger punk scene, you know, with 251 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: lots of white dudes, and through the Riot Girls scene 252 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: that emerged from that scene, which is mostly white women. Um, 253 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: they really were forced to carve out their own pathways 254 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: for expression and kind of build these alternatives to the 255 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: alternatives alternative. Right If if punk is an alternative and 256 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: Riot Girls an alternative to punk, these black women had 257 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 1: to say, Okay, we're making another alternative to all those 258 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 1: different alternatives. It's again existing at the intersection of being 259 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: a black woman in a space that makes all women 260 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 1: marginalized and then further makes women of color not feel 261 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: included in that space that was carved out for women 262 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: in a male dominated space exactly. Um, there's a really 263 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: famous black feminist theorist called named pat Hill Collins, and 264 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: she has this great theory called the matrix of domination, 265 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: which basically means that as black women are marginalized women, 266 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: all of our oppression is interconnected and sort of magnified 267 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: because it's interconnected. And in reading about you know, black 268 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: punk women that just I was thinking about that theory 269 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: like jumping up in my head as I was reading. 270 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: One of these black punk rockers who was interviewed for 271 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: this article really sort of hit the day on the head. 272 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: She said, the double burden of being a black girl 273 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 1: who has to deal with the white girls in the 274 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: scene on top of being a girl who has to 275 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: deal with the white boys who dominated the mosh pit 276 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: at punk shows. And so again you can see how 277 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: it's this double bind of having to deal with the 278 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: isolation from these white guys in mosh pits who were awful, 279 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: and having to deal with these white riot girls who 280 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: could also be awful in their own ways. It sounds like, 281 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: as well, yeah, and can we explore what we mean 282 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: by being awful? Is a little bit here too, because 283 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: it doesn't take explicit intent to be awful in this case, 284 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: what we're really talking about is not being inclusive, and 285 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: that is just as awful because you're basically erasing the 286 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 1: right of women of color in this case to exist 287 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: in a space that doesn't even acknowledge their present exactly. UM, 288 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: one of the punk rockers interviewed in this article really 289 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 1: talked about how for her this idea that a lot 290 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: of female, white female riot girls had that you know, 291 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 1: I want to do a mosh pit where it's gonna 292 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 1: be safe, it's just gonna be women. She'd actually talked 293 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: about how she never felt unsafe because she was a woman. 294 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: She felt unsafe because she was black, and the the 295 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: conversation that was going on around UM women in punk 296 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: scenes and how they were treated totally forced her to 297 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: erase her blackness, even though that's impossible. And so it's 298 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: just like what you said. When I say awful, I 299 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: mean just not keeping in mind um inclusivity and intersectionality 300 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: when you're talking about this, and then also making marginalized 301 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 1: women feel like they should be grateful for even being 302 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: included at all, saying, you know, oh, the fact that 303 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: you were even invited into this scene. It doesn't matter 304 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: if we overlook you or erase you or completely don't 305 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: even speak to your issues. You should be thankful to 306 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 1: be here at all. And I see that large in 307 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:10,479 Speaker 1: the feminist movement. A lot those tensions definitely, and I 308 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:14,360 Speaker 1: think that also became such an issue when Riot Girl 309 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: was treated in a retrospective light. More recently so at 310 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:23,360 Speaker 1: that n y U collection. Looking back at Riot Girl, UM, 311 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:27,880 Speaker 1: I find it really fascinating to say that, UM. Now, 312 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 1: with it becoming this sort of symbol that we can 313 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,679 Speaker 1: look back on for punk and women in punk, the 314 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 1: fact that women of color being left out even in 315 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 1: retrospection is truly problematic. It doubles down on that experience 316 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 1: of ignorance, It doubles down on that exclusion of women 317 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,880 Speaker 1: of color being invited to even look back on that 318 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,360 Speaker 1: era and look back on that movement and look back 319 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: on the rise of the punk scene. And as Mimi 320 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: t Win, Professor of Gender Studies and Women Studies and 321 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 1: Asian American Studies at the University of Illinois a ban 322 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 1: A Champagne put it quote, with Riot Girl now becoming 323 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:09,360 Speaker 1: the subject of so much retrospection, I argue that how 324 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: the critiques of women of color are narrated is important 325 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:17,639 Speaker 1: to how we remember feminisms and how we produced feminist futures. 326 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: If Riot Girl fell apart because of a race riot, 327 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 1: how is this to be remembered as catastrophic melee, as 328 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,879 Speaker 1: course correction, as a brief interruption, and how then are 329 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: we to face the future with certain progress having been achieved, 330 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:36,640 Speaker 1: or with violence including a racier deferral or annexation, not 331 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: having ended. So basically, what she's saying is looking back 332 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,400 Speaker 1: on this movement, how we talk about race impacts, how 333 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: we can all move forward, if in either an inclusive 334 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:49,679 Speaker 1: or not some inclusive way. Definitely, And I struggle with 335 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: this a little bit because I love a lot of 336 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 1: these Riot Girl figures, and why I loved them is 337 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: because they talked openly about things that weren't pretty and 338 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: weren't great and weren't easy. They talked about sexual assault, 339 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: they talked about, you know, the patriarchy. They talked about 340 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: things that weren't easy, and it's I see them now, 341 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 1: and I really wish I had seen more artists using 342 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: race and conversations around race in their art in those ways. Um. 343 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 1: But one musician that I really want to shout out 344 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,679 Speaker 1: and who was really siminal in black punk and the 345 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,880 Speaker 1: Riot Girl and alternative movements that sprang up for black 346 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: women is Tamark Allie Brown. Um. She's an artist who 347 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 1: has performed with bands like Fishbone, which is another seminal 348 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 1: mostly black punk band and other acts like Outcasts shout 349 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:36,159 Speaker 1: out to them because we're here in Atlanta. And she 350 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,120 Speaker 1: even was the face of the documentary about afro punk. 351 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 1: So if you if you bought that movie that DVD, 352 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 1: she is the woman on the cover um And she's 353 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: actually talked about how, even though she is associated with 354 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: the afro punk movement now, back in the day, like 355 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 1: in the nineties in New York City, she didn't have 356 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 1: the benefit of an online message board for black punks, 357 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,880 Speaker 1: and it was a totally isolating experience for her. And 358 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: she writes about out sort of Riot Girl at the 359 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 1: time just wasn't speaking to her issue. She was a 360 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,879 Speaker 1: black woman living in these really intense urban environments that 361 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: were invested with crime, and she didn't feel safe. And 362 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: so this idea that Riot Girl for her represented this 363 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:21,199 Speaker 1: sort of um safe, sanitized version of white womanhood that 364 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: just did not jibe with what she was experiencing, which 365 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 1: is being a black woman with a shaved head having 366 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: to exist in these you know, very tough streets and 367 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: sort of live day to day. She didn't see her 368 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 1: own experiences being reflected in the music that Riot Girl 369 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,199 Speaker 1: was putting out right, and I love the way that 370 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 1: she described that frustration as saying, quote, riot girl felt 371 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 1: like a bubblegum expression. You know, she's talking about having 372 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 1: to be out in the world and just survive. I 373 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 1: have to survive. I have to defend myself, she said, 374 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 1: not not like her counterparts who were sort of the 375 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: white punk artists in the riot girl scene, saying things 376 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 1: like you just think I can't play because I'm a girl. 377 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: You know. She really described it as being a really, uh, 378 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 1: a lack of equivalence in in terms of the complaints 379 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: that she was talking about and sort of the frustration 380 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 1: and anger that she brought to her punk artistry versus 381 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: some of what was more mainstream in the riot girl movement. Totally, 382 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: and I think we should talk more about Brown, her 383 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,120 Speaker 1: eventual contributions to the riot girl scene and the alternatives 384 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 1: that sprang up after this quick break and we're back 385 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: and we were just talking about how black women feeling 386 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: isolated from the punk and riot girl scenes. We're really 387 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,160 Speaker 1: forced to carve out their own spaces as an alternative 388 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,119 Speaker 1: to the riot girl scene that did not seem very 389 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,679 Speaker 1: inclusive to them. And what I love about this is 390 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 1: that it starts with a party. Like most of good 391 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 1: things in life. Um Brown met up with other rockers 392 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,440 Speaker 1: like Maya Glick and Honey each Wild Coleman, and eventually 393 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: organized something called Sister Girl Riots, a series of d 394 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: i y punk shows for black women as an alternative 395 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:09,640 Speaker 1: to the punk scene that was dominated by white men 396 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 1: and the Riot Girls scene dominated by white women. Their 397 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 1: first show was Valentine's Day of and it sounds lit. 398 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 1: I just love the like reclaiming of the name to 399 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:25,880 Speaker 1: Sister Girl with the hard Girl in there too, which 400 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:30,400 Speaker 1: is a great way to sort of highlight the sisters 401 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 1: involved in the scene, right like black women in the scene. 402 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: And when I got fun facts about the Sister Girl 403 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: Riots is that they made space for white ally ships. 404 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: So they really went out of their way to be 405 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 1: inclusive um, even more so than I would say Riot 406 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 1: Girl as a movement had been for black women or 407 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,919 Speaker 1: for women of color in the punk scene. So iconic 408 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: feminist punk band um sort of lead the slitzes are up. 409 00:22:56,280 --> 00:23:01,160 Speaker 1: One of your favorite musicians so much she performed as 410 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,120 Speaker 1: a you know, as a white woman in the Riot 411 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,680 Speaker 1: Girl scene. She performed as an opener at a Sister 412 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 1: Girl ally. Um, so it's it's really interesting to see 413 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: that behavior of inclusivity modeled through the Sister Girl riots. 414 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:17,959 Speaker 1: And so you might be thinking, why does anyone care 415 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,880 Speaker 1: about this? Who cares? No Black women in punk? Sure? 416 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,400 Speaker 1: Why is it an issue? But it's an issue because 417 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 1: representation really does matter. If you listen to our Lisa 418 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: Simpson episode, you know that it's important for people of 419 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: all kinds to see themselves reflected in different spaces, and 420 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 1: growing up, I never saw myself reflected in this this 421 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 1: scene that I loved so much and that connected that 422 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 1: I connected with so much. And so having these conversations 423 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: now and going back and lifting up the examples of 424 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 1: black women in the punk scene is very, very important. 425 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 1: And I think that someone who noted this very well 426 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: is Laurnda Davis, who is the president of the Black 427 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 1: Rock the Black Rock Coalition. She argues for the necessity 428 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 1: of more representation not just for black women in punk, 429 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,360 Speaker 1: but for black women in general. She writes, I never 430 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 1: looked at a magazine and thought that that was what 431 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: I was supposed to look like. On the one hand, 432 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 1: it's actually kind of liberating to to not be the 433 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: standard for what womanhood is. That standard put a lot 434 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,920 Speaker 1: of women in boxes, and they live their lives trying 435 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 1: to get out of that box. Black women were never 436 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 1: even allowed in the box. I wasn't looking at a 437 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 1: TV saying, oh, that represents me. I wasn't listening to 438 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 1: music telling me about my experience. I had experiences that 439 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,119 Speaker 1: told me I wasn't concerned with these things that the 440 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:28,959 Speaker 1: happy songs were about. And so I think that quote 441 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,199 Speaker 1: really nails it for me. Why it's so important to 442 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 1: see yourself reflected, why representation really does matter in media 443 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:40,400 Speaker 1: of all kinds, including music totally. And I think it's 444 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: any episode about the history of black women and punk 445 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,440 Speaker 1: would be be ever missed and not mentioned that one 446 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 1: of the songs that I think of as the feminist 447 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 1: punk battle cry is actually we have it because of 448 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 1: a black woman. UM. You probably know the song. It's 449 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: O Bondage Up Yours by the X ray Specs, and 450 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: they had this amazing black woman singer called Polystyrene, which 451 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 1: is a pawn on sort of the plastic thing that 452 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 1: you get your hamburgers wrapped in UM. And really, what 453 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: I think makes this song such a feminist battle cry 454 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: is the opening lines, which if you know the song, 455 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: you know how it goes well, which we're gonna play 456 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: for our listeners. It's just an amazing song. It's so great. 457 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 1: If you don't know it, you're gonna love it. Some 458 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,919 Speaker 1: people think little Girl should basing and not hug but 459 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: I think our bondage the want I say so and 460 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: what I love is not only the artistry that she 461 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 1: brings to her music, but also her background, her story 462 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:02,919 Speaker 1: um they hear. In The Independent, they write of Polly 463 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 1: as a dumpy, frumpy, almost wilfully unsexual girl from Brixton 464 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,159 Speaker 1: with braces on her teeth. Polly Styrene was a perfect 465 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: candidate to find herself through punk, turning this persona on 466 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,919 Speaker 1: its head into an art form. She became one of 467 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: the movement's principal female figures. Her song, Oh Bondage up 468 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: yours a feminist rallying cry, I love it so much, 469 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: and even Kathleen Hannah's, who was often cited as an 470 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: early originator of riot Girl, although she would probably push 471 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,479 Speaker 1: back against that title, she often cites Polly as a 472 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: major musical influence. In Polly's obituary in The New York Times, 473 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: Kathleen Hannah was quoted as saying, Polly, it's the way 474 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 1: for me as a female singer who wanted to sing 475 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 1: about ideas. Her lyrics influenced everyone I know who makes music, 476 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,239 Speaker 1: and I think that's so important when you have this 477 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: person who was often cited as a seminal figure in punk, 478 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,400 Speaker 1: who went on to do all these really important female 479 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 1: lad projects like Latigue and Bikimi Kill, saying, oh it 480 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,919 Speaker 1: wasn't for Polly and X respects, these folks might not 481 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,399 Speaker 1: even be here. I love it. And let's talk a 482 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 1: little bit now about some black women artists in the 483 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,360 Speaker 1: punk scene now that we should all be paying more 484 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: attention to. So what artists would you recommend our listeners? Yeah, 485 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:19,120 Speaker 1: if if you're Yeah, if you're interested in more rock 486 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 1: music from black ladies, there's a lot of your in luck, 487 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,679 Speaker 1: it's a great time for it. Um. One band that 488 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,159 Speaker 1: I have to sort of shout out is the Alabama Shakes. 489 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: Alabama Shakes is fronted by a black woman. Their hit 490 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,400 Speaker 1: song Don't Want to Fight one Grammys for Best Rock 491 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 1: Song and Best Rock Performance, and when they won, it 492 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:38,639 Speaker 1: was the first time a black woman had one or 493 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: been nominated in those categories since Tracy Chapman in It's 494 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: Crazy and shout out to Tracy Chapman because like four 495 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: speaking of formative black women in my in my musical 496 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: thought of her as punk, Tracy Chapman, she's more She's 497 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 1: not really punk, she's more rock. So I don't know, yeah, not, 498 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 1: aren't me. Another band to checkout is a feminist punk 499 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,399 Speaker 1: band from London called Big Joanie Um. The lead singer 500 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:08,920 Speaker 1: of this band actually has a ted X talk about 501 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,879 Speaker 1: being a black feminist and punk of course called O 502 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 1: Bondage of Yours. Definitely check out and you might not 503 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: even think of them as punk. But two artists that 504 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 1: I love that you should definitely check out if you've 505 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 1: Beyonce and Solange Knowles. Beyonce used to really be thought 506 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 1: of as, you know, just a pop musician, but with 507 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 1: her seminal album Lemonade, she was actually nominated for a 508 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: Grammy for her song Don't Hurt Yourself in the category 509 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: of Best Rock Performance and perform Yeah. I don't think 510 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 1: people really know this about her, but that album really 511 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: was a big step in terms of her branching out 512 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: and sort of people opening there, opening the door for 513 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: other kinds of music to be considered um rock. That 514 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 1: track she co created with Jack White from White Stripes, right, 515 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 1: so he or he was at least sampled on that 516 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 1: track too, and he's like the White Stripes rot oh 517 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: for sure. Um. I know there was a lot of 518 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: noise when Beyonce was nominated in a rock category from 519 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 1: people who were probably super hardcore traditional rockers, But according 520 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 1: to Recording Academy Senior Vice President Bill Frymouth, he told 521 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: Metal Injection, I think what we found this year is 522 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: that so many artists that have that were in rock 523 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: or rock adjacent. We're taking more sonic risk this year 524 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 1: than ever before, and it made for a really exciting, 525 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 1: dynamic landscape in that field. That Beyonce recording has Jack 526 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,479 Speaker 1: White in it, and it has led Zeppelin samples and 527 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 1: in it. I think it's Beyonce really stretching. It's an 528 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: artist at the height of her musical powers, and it's 529 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 1: really reaching in many different directions and we're all better 530 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: for it. And I just love it's so great sonic risk. 531 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: I love that let's all take more sonic risk, let's 532 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 1: all be more like Beyonce in a ways. Um. And again, 533 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,479 Speaker 1: Beyonce isn't the only Knowles family member who's known for 534 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 1: taking those kinds of risks um, probably my favorite album 535 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 1: of the last five years is Solange Knowles as a 536 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,239 Speaker 1: Seat at the Table. If you haven't listened to it, 537 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 1: turn off this podcast and put on it will change 538 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: your life. Um. But basically she talks about how one 539 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: of the seminal songs on that album was really rooted 540 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 1: in exactly the kind of things that we're talking about, UM, 541 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 1: the isolation that she felt as a black woman interested 542 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: in punk and alternative music. So in an interview, she 543 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 1: explained how the song foo Boo really has punk rock roots. 544 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: She says, what I think of Fu Boo and the 545 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: album as a whole, I think of punk music and 546 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: how white kids were allowed to be completely disruptive, allowed 547 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 1: to be an anti establishment and express rage and anger. 548 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: They were allowed to have the space to do all 549 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 1: of that, even if it meant being violent or destroying property. 550 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,240 Speaker 1: And that wasn't exactly inclusive to us. If we created 551 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: the groundwork for rock and roll, if we were inclusive 552 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: and we were violent and destroying property and able to 553 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 1: express that kind of rage, that it would not be 554 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 1: allowed in the same way. And so even though Foo 555 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: Boo is not a song that you might think of 556 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 1: a traditionally punk. It really is rooted in exactly what 557 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: we're talking about today, this feeling of isolation that a 558 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 1: lot of black kids grew up feeling looking at their 559 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: white punk counterparts and food Boo stands for something for us, 560 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: by us, And it reminds me of the way that 561 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 1: we talk about protests a little bit, Like I've seen 562 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 1: that mirrored in Oh, this is such a peaceful, non 563 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: violent protests full of white women on on the Women's strike, 564 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:28,479 Speaker 1: contrary to Black Lives Matter protests that we've gotten violent 565 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 1: in the past. And it's like, well, violence is not 566 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 1: seen as threatening all the time when it comes from 567 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 1: a white kid setting up trash can on fire, whereas 568 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: at a predominantly black demonstration, like the same kinds of 569 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 1: behaviors are framed really differently and seen as more threatening. 570 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: And think about I've always I think that's a great example, 571 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 1: and I've always thought, you know, threatening behavior gets threatening behavior. 572 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: And so when I was at the Women's march, I 573 00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: didn't see things like tanks, I didn't see an over 574 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 1: size police presence. And so if you go to a 575 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter march or rally, the fact that those 576 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: things are already there before it even starts. I think 577 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: kind of becomes an indicator for what kind of climate 578 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 1: they're already preparing for. It's like a ratcheting up that 579 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: happened exactly the interesting Well, I think that's such a 580 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: great point about punk, because punk is violent in its undertones, right, 581 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: It's about expressions of anger and outbursts, and so creating 582 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: a space for black women in particular to buck gender 583 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 1: norms and to buck racial norms of what's expected and 584 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 1: what's tolerated in a really angry artistry um is important. Yeah, 585 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 1: I mean, what's more punk rock than growing up in 586 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: a situation where you are dealing with microaggressions all day long. 587 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 1: I think back to myself coming home in junior high 588 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: and turning on my stereo and just rocking the f 589 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: out some punk music and just getting that out at 590 00:32:57,560 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 1: the end of the day. And I think it's important 591 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: for black kids to be able to do that and 592 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: have that space the same as their white counterparts. Yes, 593 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: does minty listeners, we want to hear from you. What 594 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 1: is your favorite way to rock out, to punk rock 595 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 1: or to let loose and let's let your sort of 596 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: music expression, share your frustration with the patriarchy or with injustice. 597 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 1: How are you musically uh letting your punk flag fly nowadays? 598 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 1: So we want to hear from you black punk bands 599 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: and punk bands of all of all stripes. You can 600 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 1: hit us up on Instagram at stuff mom ever told You. 601 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 1: You can tweet at us at Mom's Stuff podcast, or 602 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 1: you can send us an email at mom Stuff at 603 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com