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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello Ben, Welcome to cool people who did cool stuff.

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Speaker 2: You're a weekly reminder that when people do bad things,

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Speaker 2: there's people trying to do good things in counter to

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Speaker 2: the bad things. I am your host, Margaret Kiljoy.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: Sophie's giving me a look saying you totally nailed it. It

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Speaker 2: wasn't a confused look. It wasn't a like, what are

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Speaker 2: you doing?

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Speaker 3: Why do I hire you?

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Speaker 2: It was you nailed it look, And I'm really proud

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Speaker 2: of that.

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Speaker 1: I'm proud of you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, thank you. That's my producer, Sophie. Also

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Speaker 2: on the line is my guest Charles McBride. Hello, Hi,

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Speaker 2: how are you.

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Speaker 3: I'm well.

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Speaker 2: When I tried to come up with a bio for

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Speaker 2: you without actually looking up your bio, I wrote Charles McBride,

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Speaker 2: a documentarian, an influencer and humanitarian and one of the

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Speaker 2: only people who's reels explaining politics, I actually bother watching

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Speaker 2: on Instagram.

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Speaker 3: That's very flattering. Thank you. Did you put CIA crisis

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Speaker 3: actor in there, because according to my comments section.

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Speaker 2: Oh your uncle Zone Media, it's understood. Yeah, Oh okay, gosh, yeah,

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Speaker 2: more like CIA Zone Media.

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Speaker 1: Don't worry, we're doing the secret handshake right now.

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Speaker 3: Yeah sounds good. Yeah, all those Soros books flowing again.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's fun having decent opinions of world politics based

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Speaker 2: on actually just trying to look at the situation with

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Speaker 2: empathy and ending up getting called a fed I presume

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Speaker 2: that it's something like your position on Ukraine that has

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Speaker 2: led you to be accused of this.

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Speaker 3: That's certainly how it started. Since then, it's like there's

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Speaker 3: a whole segment of the Internet waiting for me to

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Speaker 3: have the wrong opinion about other stuff. Right, so I

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Speaker 3: had the wrong opinion about Venezuela, I had the wrong

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Speaker 3: opinion about Iran.

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Speaker 2: You have the non tanky opinion, is what I'm assuming.

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Speaker 2: Sorry to go right into the jargon with stuff with everyone, Yeah, I.

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Speaker 3: Do not actually subscribe to the immortal science of Marxism Leninism.

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Speaker 2: Interesting, so I.

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Speaker 3: Am kind of a reactionary and counter revolutionary.

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Speaker 2: But it's an immortal science. And that's a word that

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Speaker 2: is normally attached to the word science in a way

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Speaker 2: that makes it even more sciencey and respectable.

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Speaker 3: That's yeah, it is scientific. Scientific materialism is I learned

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Speaker 3: that when it was like in college, it was like yeah, biology,

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Speaker 3: you know, you had chemistry, scientific materialism.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's really good to clear out all of

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Speaker 2: the people who are big putin fans. Right at the

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Speaker 2: top of this particular episode, I think people know that

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Speaker 2: I don't tell my guests what the episode is about,

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Speaker 2: but everyone listening already knows what the episode is about

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Speaker 2: because they saw it in their title. Charles. For some reason,

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Speaker 2: one of the main things on my mind lately has

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Speaker 2: been partisans, people who live within an authoritarian system while

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Speaker 2: actively at war against that authoritarian system. I don't know

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Speaker 2: why it's been on my mind. It's hard to imagine

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Speaker 2: why anyone in the United States of America would be

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Speaker 2: thinking about these things. The most famous partisan movements are,

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Speaker 2: of course, the partisan movements against fascist talccupation during World

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Speaker 2: War Two. I've covered these folks a bunch on the

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Speaker 2: show and will continue to do so. For example, right now,

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Speaker 2: I'm in a middle of research for a multi week

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Speaker 2: episode about Dutch partisans. But there are partisans everywhere, depending

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Speaker 2: on how you go about defining it, and even if

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Speaker 2: we use self definition, we're going to include today's subjects

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Speaker 2: because one of the places that there are a bunch

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Speaker 2: of partisans doing partisan shit against an authoritarian government is Russia.

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Speaker 2: An awful lot of Russians have refused to accept this

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Speaker 2: turned authoritarianism and the invasion of Ukraine. They've refused to

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Speaker 2: take it lying down. And the anti war movement in

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Speaker 2: Russia isn't afraid to get a little spicy and or

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Speaker 2: terroristic depending on who you ask. That's the subject of

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Speaker 2: this week's episodes. Russian partisans fighting against Russia.

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Speaker 3: That's exciting.

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Speaker 2: You actually went to Ukraine right at the start of

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Speaker 2: the war, there is that, right, That is correct. What

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Speaker 2: brought you there.

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Speaker 3: Besides the CIA? Yeah, So I had been working on

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Speaker 3: a food rescue startup charity thing based in California for

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Speaker 3: the past two years and it was a very simple

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Speaker 3: concept of connecting farms with excess produce to food banks

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Speaker 3: that had need during COVID And so when the Ukraine

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Speaker 3: War broke out, I found myself really feeling like I

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Speaker 3: needed to go, and I thought I'd just do the

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Speaker 3: same thing there, you know, But I was going to

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Speaker 3: find whatever that breakdown in the like relief supply chain

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Speaker 3: was and try and plug that. We ended up finding

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Speaker 3: that was with medical care, particularly people coming from eastern

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Speaker 3: Ukraine to the West kind of different cultural mix there,

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Speaker 3: especially the old folks who the war doesn't it can't

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Speaker 3: really interrupt your cancer treatment, you know, or your thyroid medicine,

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Speaker 3: like you said, need to find that. So that's what

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Speaker 3: we were running around doing for the first couple of months.

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Speaker 3: That ended up becoming a predominantly oncology focused medical relief

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Speaker 3: organization called Mission Harkiv based in the city of Haarkiv.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, that was what I was involved with. I've

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Speaker 3: spent five months there since the outbreak of war, well

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Speaker 3: the outbreak of the renewed invasion in twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 3: and yeah, that project is still going strong.

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Speaker 2: I'm particularly excited that, well, even just that you've been

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Speaker 2: to Ukraine, I haven't. I have spent a lot of

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Speaker 2: time reading Russian and Ukrainian history and have talked with

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Speaker 2: friends in both countries at various points. But there's so

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Speaker 2: much that I don't know, and I'm going to try

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Speaker 2: and get into some slightly forlorny stuff today about these things.

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Speaker 2: And so I'm excited to have you on.

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Speaker 3: For this good stuff.

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Speaker 2: As we record this, we just hit the fourth anniversary

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Speaker 2: of the intensification of the war, and I don't know

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Speaker 2: if there's a major world conflict that the left has

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Speaker 2: embarrassed itself with more than the war in Ukraine. You

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Speaker 2: mentioned some other ones that the left is doing embarrassing

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Speaker 2: things like Venezuela and Iran, but Russian talking points about

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Speaker 2: Ukraine have infiltrated left to spaces to a degree that

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Speaker 2: makes the left rival the right wing. If we're competing

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Speaker 2: in a competition to see who can swallow the most

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Speaker 2: pro putin propaganda, which is a thing that a pro

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Speaker 2: putin propaganda is a totally normal thing to write, and

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Speaker 2: then not a normal thing to have to say. And

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Speaker 2: I am recognizing this now. It's just too many peas

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Speaker 2: in a row. Thank you, Thank you, Sophie. It's a mouthful, Okay,

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Speaker 2: it's a mouthful to say pro putin propaganda. So why

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Speaker 2: is everyone doing it?

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Speaker 1: I'm proud of you, thank you, thank you.

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Speaker 2: Russia, of course had to invade Ukraine and massacre civilians

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Speaker 2: there and to try and deny the existence of Ukraine

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Speaker 2: because Ukraine was looking for a way to defend itself

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Speaker 2: against Russia. And that's the most victim blaming shit that

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Speaker 2: I've ever heard out of someone's mouth that pretends to

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Speaker 2: be radical. There are more subtle lies that pro Putin

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Speaker 2: propaganda says. I'm just going to say Russian propaganda at

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Speaker 2: this point, even though I'm talking about a bunch of

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Speaker 2: really Russians this week. Russian state propaganda. Perhaps we could

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Speaker 2: call it. There's more subtle lines, the idea that Ukraine

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Speaker 2: doesn't really exist since it doesn't have a single identity,

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Speaker 2: it's not really a country, and therefore it's okay to

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Speaker 2: invade it. And this one's funny because aren't we the internationalists?

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Speaker 3: Also, isn't that precisely the rationale that Desionists used to

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Speaker 3: deny Palestine. Yeah. I was sitting across from one Yep

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Speaker 3: back in May. Yeah, and she said, well, I mean

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Speaker 3: it's actually Unra that created this Palestinian identity to separate

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Speaker 3: the Palestinians from the Arabs of Jordan in Syria, even

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Speaker 3: though they had the same language and the same religion

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Speaker 3: and the same culture.

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Speaker 2: And it was like, wow, okay, Yeah, people like justifying

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Speaker 2: invading other countries and taking over their territory. It's like

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Speaker 2: a thing that people in power really like doing.

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Speaker 3: Leftists don't do that, though we've never done that.

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Speaker 2: Now we always have the correct opinion about everything.

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Speaker 1: Famously, leftist no infighting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, as we're basically in fighting now by basically being like,

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Speaker 2: approximately half of the left is wildly wrong about this.

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Speaker 2: Anarchists and progressives are both like, oh no, why would

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Speaker 2: you let another country invade the other country and kill

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Speaker 2: all the civilians there? That seems bad. That seems very comparable.

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Speaker 2: And then you know, as we hinted at it the opening,

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Speaker 2: there is a tendency that has a lot of different

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Speaker 2: names and a lot of different justifications that advocates that

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Speaker 2: basically anything that the US does and therefore NATO does

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Speaker 2: is inherently wrong, and therefore anyone who is fighting against

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Speaker 2: those things is inherently good, and therefore Russia is not imperialist.

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Speaker 2: Iron is not imperialist. And it's embarrassing, to say the least.

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Speaker 3: These people have like a very pathological approach to geopolitics.

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Speaker 3: It's very like geopolitical chessport. You got to be in

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Speaker 3: the right white squares versus black squares.

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Speaker 2: It's also very like childish. It's very like, I've never

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Speaker 2: heard of this thing called nuance, because in some ways

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Speaker 2: I actually consider my position in some ways on nuanced,

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Speaker 2: which is like maybe just like don't massacre people right,

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Speaker 2: like it would be bad even if it was like

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Speaker 2: the people I was friends with doing it right. Whenever

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Speaker 2: I want to find out how I feel about something

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Speaker 2: complicated happening in the world, one of the things that

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Speaker 2: I take into account very heavily is what people on

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Speaker 2: the ground have to say about that issue, rather than

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Speaker 2: what I assume I should feel. And specifically, as an anarchist,

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Speaker 2: I tend to listen to the anarchists in any given

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Speaker 2: region because they will have similar ideas as me, and

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Speaker 2: have a different context and be living in that different context.

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Speaker 2: And so if you listen to the anarchists in Ukraine,

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Speaker 2: in Russia and in Belarus, three of the countries most

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Speaker 2: directly affected, it is very clear. No one can speak

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Speaker 2: for all the anarchists in this or that place. That's

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Speaker 2: part of the beauty of anarchism. But overwhelmingly Ukrainian and

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Speaker 2: Russian and Belarusian anarchists are against this invasion, and overwhelmingly

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Speaker 2: they have supported military struggle against Russia, including by working

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Speaker 2: within the armed forces of Ukraine, which is of course

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Speaker 2: a compromise within Russia itself, at least as of a

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Speaker 2: couple of years ago. It is very hard to get

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Speaker 2: current information. The most active group of Partisans is the

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Speaker 2: subject of this week, a group called the Boak, whose

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Speaker 2: name I practiced pronouncing several times and I'm still going

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Speaker 2: to mess up as I look at my transliteration. The

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Speaker 2: boy I Vaya Organizacia Anarcho communistov the militant Anarcho Communist

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Speaker 2: organization so proud of you, thank you, which I'm happy

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Speaker 2: to say that they do what they say in their title,

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Speaker 2: that is what they do. Ever heard of this group?

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Speaker 2: I have, Okay, what are you coming in with?

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Speaker 3: What do you not much? It's basically, yeah, whispers of

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Speaker 3: a nameless fear. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: They had a big media moment in twenty twenty three

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Speaker 2: and not a lot since then, so I'm going to

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Speaker 2: be mostly working with sources from twenty twenty three. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: we've actually talked about one of their founders before on

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Speaker 2: this show. About a year ago. I did some episodes

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Speaker 2: that I recommend to people that some of my favorite

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Speaker 2: episodes that we've done, because there's matter the most to

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Speaker 2: me personally and to some of the people I know

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Speaker 2: about three internationalist anarchists who died fighting in Ukraine against Russia,

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Speaker 2: who died in the same air strike on April nineteenth,

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, three anarchists were martyred while defending the

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Speaker 2: humanitarian court or that brought relief to people in eastern Ukraine.

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Speaker 2: And Okay, like I read that right, But do you

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Speaker 2: know more about these humanitarian corders as someone who moved

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Speaker 2: things to eastern Ukraine?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean yes and no, which is that everyone

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Speaker 3: kind of knows that they're fake, if that makes sense. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: Like from the standpoint of literally from like day two

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Speaker 3: of the Russian invasion, they were capping journalists and humanitarians

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Speaker 3: as they were approaching Kiev, and like I remember being

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Speaker 3: over there and there was like a lot of there's

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Speaker 3: a lot of tension between people being like, oh, make

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Speaker 3: sure that you're wearing like clearly marked you know, clothes

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Speaker 3: and clearly marked vehicles and stuff like that to show

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Speaker 3: that you're non military and everything like that. Well, it

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Speaker 3: turns out putting crosses on the top of your white

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Speaker 3: vans just makes them a target. So it got to

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Speaker 3: the point where like you couldn't tell the difference between

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Speaker 3: like who was a soldier, who was a journalist, and

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Speaker 3: who was a humanitarian. And that that might sound bad,

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Speaker 3: but when you're talking about an enemy. He doesn't bother

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Speaker 3: distinguishing between you. You prefer to blend in rather than

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Speaker 3: stand out. Yeah, you know, that was something that the

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Speaker 3: people who really worked far ahead of the line understood

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Speaker 3: more than like the kind of UN bureaucrats who were

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Speaker 3: always trying to police the humanitarian stuff, because there is,

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Speaker 3: especially in Ukraine, there was a lot of people who

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Speaker 3: were blurring the lines between humanitarian journalists military. The people

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Speaker 3: who'd start as a journalist and then they joined the

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Speaker 3: humanitarian thing and then they'd say there long enough, they'd

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Speaker 3: get caught up in the cause and they would become

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Speaker 3: a medic or become a soldier, and that was a

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Speaker 3: real phenomenon. But there also was just this true understanding

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Speaker 3: that like if you go out there, you know, with

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Speaker 3: a white volunteer van and you know, clear markings, then

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Speaker 3: you're going to get destroyed. You know. That's like how

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Speaker 3: my friend Chris got killed by a tank as you know,

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Speaker 3: he was doing frontline evacuation stuff and yeah, in a

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Speaker 3: volunteer van that was white, you know. And yeah, so

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Speaker 3: the humanitarian cord in Ukraine is a fluid concept that

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Speaker 3: put it that way.

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Speaker 2: No, it's interesting because like I even came into When

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Speaker 2: I first read about the humanitarian corridor, I assume this

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Speaker 2: was something that Russia's not respecting and is just something

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Speaker 2: that Ukraine is trying to create, basically, like trying to

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Speaker 2: create a channel that allows humanitarian aid to flow in

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Speaker 2: and out, but against Russian forces that are trying to

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Speaker 2: prevent that from happening. And like maybe I thought that

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Speaker 2: because the first I read about it was that on

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Speaker 2: April nineteenth, twenty twenty thirty three anarchists that were martyred

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Speaker 2: while defending the humanitarian corridor, right, Like, they were killed

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Speaker 2: four trying to allow the free movement of people in

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Speaker 2: and out of this area, you know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: One of the people who was killed that day was

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Speaker 2: a Russian anarchist, writer and a direct actionist named Dmitri Petrov,

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Speaker 2: and he was one of the founders of the Boak.

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Speaker 2: He had a PhD in history, but he grew up

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Speaker 2: fighting the fascists who were coming to power in Russia.

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Speaker 2: He lost friends who were killed in street fights to

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Speaker 2: defend immigrants. Like during the twenty tens was a rough

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Speaker 2: time to be an anti fascist in an increasingly fascist

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Speaker 2: authoritarian country against something that is like totally not whatever

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Speaker 2: I'll just like lay out something that I end this

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Speaker 2: script with right now. I think Russia is the clearest

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Speaker 2: image of where America is going in the political world today.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, unequivocally.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So the twenty tens in Russia might be

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Speaker 2: the equivalent of the twenty twenties in America on some level.

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Speaker 2: And during this time he grew up street fighting fascists,

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Speaker 2: and he had several friends who died while trying to

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Speaker 2: defend immigrants. He began his war against Putin long before

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Speaker 2: the invasion of Ukraine because Putin became more and more

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Speaker 2: transparently a dictator in Russia. Like, for example, in twenty eleven,

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Speaker 2: he blew up a police station in a Communicae. For

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Speaker 2: that action, someone probably Dimitri wrote about it. We have

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Speaker 2: a lot of the writings that came out of movements

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Speaker 2: that he was part of, but we don't like, he

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Speaker 2: wasn't signing his names to like his criminal Hey, I'm

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Speaker 2: like sending police stations on fire documents, you know, for

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Speaker 2: some reason, Yeah, for some reason. Yeah. And now there's

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Speaker 2: a little bit of like, now that he's dead, you

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Speaker 2: can kind of be like, oh, he did all of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

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Speaker 2: You know, but he also is a prolific writer, and

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Speaker 2: so it's very likely that he wrote a lot of

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Speaker 2: the communicators for the actions he was involved in. He

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Speaker 2: wrote about that action in the Communica, or someone did,

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Speaker 2: probably him. You cannot seize power and impose anarchy on

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Speaker 2: people from above. You cannot make a revolution for them

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Speaker 2: and force them to live in a new society. Anarchist

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Speaker 2: ideals will win only when people realize their strength, taking

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Speaker 2: responsibility for their own lives and each others. Therefore, the

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Speaker 2: main thing is to restore people's faith in their own strength.

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Speaker 2: And so this was like one of the main ideas

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Speaker 2: that he's working with is this idea that like we

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Speaker 2: need to get people used to the idea that they

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Speaker 2: can do things directly, not just because it solves problems directly,

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Speaker 2: but because it gets people used to that idea that

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Speaker 2: they can do those things.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, everyone's looking to be told what to do. I mean,

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Speaker 3: like there's just it's really it's deep ingrained in terms

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Speaker 3: for our history and our doctrine that like someone's going

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Speaker 3: to come along and tell you what to do.

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Speaker 2: Daddy Stalin, That's who I'm counting on.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, or you know, Mom, Donnie, I mean, like, there's

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Speaker 3: the innocent version of this too, which is like, why

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Speaker 3: won't our socialist elites or influencers save us totally? And

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Speaker 3: I mean it's like, you can do the thing. Turns

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Speaker 3: out you can do the thing.

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Speaker 2: Have you ever had a Okay, I love punks. I

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Speaker 2: love going to punk shows. That a couple of times

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Speaker 2: now I've been to punk shows where people are singing

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Speaker 2: songs against influencers and podcasters and I'm like, Yo, that's incredible,

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, really glad that's part of this movement.

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Speaker 2: Oh fuck.

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Speaker 3: I made a joke on my subst yesterday about how, like,

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Speaker 3: if I was ever granted anarchist dictator quote unquote, I

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Speaker 3: would ban marketing agencies. Like the first thing I would do,

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Speaker 3: I would like send everyone who works in advertising to

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Speaker 3: the Cobalt Minds. And then I was like, and then

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Speaker 3: I would have to join them because I've spent most

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Speaker 3: of my professional life doing like advertising for nonprofits, so.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's actually, at the end of the day,

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Speaker 2: useful work.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, like, I'll go to the Cobalt Minds if

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Speaker 3: it means I'd get to be shoulder to shoulder with

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Speaker 3: advertising executives.

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Speaker 2: So Dmitri. After spending his twenty ten's doing this stuff,

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Speaker 2: he spent about half a year in Roshava learning from

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Speaker 2: the revolution there, and then he made his way back

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Speaker 2: to Russia. I go into more detail on the episodes

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Speaker 2: that's kind of about these three folks, but I, you know,

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Speaker 2: want to recap it. He was forced to flee in

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Speaker 2: twenty eighteen when he caught word that he was going

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Speaker 2: to be arrested. By this point, like most public anti

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Speaker 2: fascists had had to flee the country or had been

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Speaker 2: in prison, or like lawyers defending them were getting snipered

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Speaker 2: from rooftops and shit like that. Like, he joined the

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Speaker 2: expatriate community of Belarusian and Russian anarchists living in the

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Speaker 2: relative freedom of Ukraine. When Russia invaded Ukraine, he joined

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Speaker 2: the military to fight against Putin. Once again, it's complicated

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Speaker 2: for an anarchist to join a national military, but this

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Speaker 2: is what he wrote about it. As an anarchist, revolutionary

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Speaker 2: and Russian, I found it necessary to take part in

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Speaker 2: the armed resistance of the Ukrainian people against Putin's occupiers.

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Speaker 2: I did this for justice, for defense of the Ukrainian

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Speaker 2: society and for liberation of my country Russia from oppression

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Speaker 2: for the sake of all the people who are deprived

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Speaker 2: of their dignity and the opportunity to breathe freely by

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Speaker 2: the vile totalitarian system created in Russia and Belarus. And

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Speaker 2: so that's Dimitri. Then there was finnbar Kafarki, who was

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Speaker 2: born in the Irish speaking part of Ireland in the

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Speaker 2: late seventies and the gal tech on An Island. He

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Speaker 2: was an Irish folk singer and an activist anarchist. He

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Speaker 2: came up as part of more like traditional Western activist

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Speaker 2: campaigns like I'm sure he wasn't above punch and Nazis,

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Speaker 2: but he was like part of like land occupations to

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Speaker 2: try and keep shell from a exploiting Ireland. You know.

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Speaker 2: He spent time doing humanitarian work in Greece. He fought

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Speaker 2: with the YPG in Roshava in twenty seventeen, and he

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Speaker 2: wrote about his decision to fight there. When I learned

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Speaker 2: that the Islamic State was being facilitated financially and militarily

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Speaker 2: by the Turkish state in its attacks on the Kurds

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Speaker 2: in Syria and Iraq, I realized this was only made

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Speaker 2: possible by the connivance of its NATO allies in the

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Speaker 2: EU who turn a blind eye in return for Turkey

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Speaker 2: stopping Syrian refugees reaching Europe. As an EU citizen, this

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Speaker 2: made me complicit in the horrors perpetrated by the Islamic

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Speaker 2: state in the territory it controls, and I wasn't happy

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Speaker 2: about that. And I like this statement and one of

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Speaker 2: the reasons I want to include it here is I

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Speaker 2: think it's worth highlighting that anarchist fighting in Ukraine aren't

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Speaker 2: there to defend NATO, like Finbar had just been at

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Speaker 2: war against a proxy of a NATO country. Yeah, like

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Speaker 2: people want us to be playing forty chess or they

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Speaker 2: think they're playing for chess, and sometimes you're like, no, no, man,

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Speaker 2: that fascist is trying to kill people. We should stop there.

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Speaker 3: It's also there's these people who just they seem to

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Speaker 3: be the obvious embodiment of our philosophies in a way,

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Speaker 3: like we're like trying to think through these things, like okay,

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Speaker 3: what's the proper authentically anti imperialist position to have on

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Speaker 3: X Y or Z. And there's this Irish guy. I

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Speaker 3: was like, well, I didn't like those Isis fuckers and

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Speaker 3: those Russian fuckers seem to be cut from the same cloth.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to go shoot them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: By the way, he had a great mustache. He had

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Speaker 3: kind of the I'm blanking on his name. Wow. An

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Speaker 3: iconic character, the one from Call of Duty Modern Warfare.

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Speaker 2: I haven't played Call of Duty. Captain Price Oh okay,

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Speaker 2: fin Bo was a charismatic looking man.

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Speaker 3: Yeah he was. Yeah, I love that. Like, did you

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Speaker 3: know him or I didn't? No, no, I did not

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Speaker 3: have the pleasure of knowing either Harris or Pin bar

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Speaker 3: So No, I didn't either. That kind of rocked me

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Speaker 3: when that happened, because that that occurred about a couple

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Speaker 3: of days after I left Ukraine. Oh shit, that was

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Speaker 3: a blow for sure. You know what was interesting, I

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Speaker 3: was actually in Ukraine when Tortigito was.

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Speaker 2: Murdered in Atlanta for people who are yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, which is close to I mean, it was crazy

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Speaker 3: because it's a little cringe. But like I put, I

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Speaker 3: have friends everywhere in my bio A because I love

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Speaker 3: andor and B because that's like my actual experience of

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Speaker 3: being a quote unquote anarchist. Yeah, is that I have

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Speaker 3: been in the craziest places on Earth doing disaster relief

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Speaker 3: or journalism or whatever, and people have found me and

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Speaker 3: be like, yo, by the way, I'm a homie.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And I had this one experience after Torti Ghita was killed,

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Speaker 3: this Ukrainian anarchist sent me up and was like, Yo,

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Speaker 3: we should go tag some shit around Harkiv in memory

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Speaker 3: of Torti Ghita. So that was just kind of like

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Speaker 3: a crazy yeah. Yeah, it's just like wow, I mean

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Speaker 3: these this really is a network, and like you said,

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Speaker 3: it's difficult to parse when you're trying to find like

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Speaker 3: who's the good guy who's the bad guys in this.

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Speaker 3: It's so interesting to me because I'll be arriving at

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Speaker 3: some opinion of like, here's what I think should probably

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Speaker 3: be true, nobody seems to be echoing it, and then

434
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,719
Speaker 3: I'll just look at like any statement from a local

435
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,359
Speaker 3: anarchists collective in that country, and it's like, oh, okay,

436
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 3: they've taken precisely the line that I was hoping on this.

437
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:19,120
Speaker 2: And right it's so true, including complicated ones like we're

438
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 2: willing to fight in the state military that also has

439
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 2: fascist in it. Yeah, you know, it's not a fascist military,

440
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 2: but it sure is a state military, you.

441
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 3: Know, and it has Russian fascists in it. Like, yeah,

442
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,200
Speaker 3: there's a division in the Ukrainian Army which is composed

443
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 3: of like very far right Russians who fled Russia because

444
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:42,000
Speaker 3: they want too much of the fascism, and then there

445
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 3: are ones who are too far left. I mean, the

446
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,159
Speaker 3: Ukrainian Army really is kind of a grab bag, or

447
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 3: the Ukrainian Defense Force, the territory. It's kind of a

448
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,000
Speaker 3: grab bag of ideologies and ethnic backgrounds. A lot of

449
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,040
Speaker 3: bell Russians, a lot of Russians, yeah, a lot of anarchists.

450
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 3: And it's one of the reasons the Ukrainians really like

451
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,639
Speaker 3: the Kurds, like they get the Roajavas struggle intuitively, even

452
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,159
Speaker 3: more than the Pawescinian struggle, which I think took a

453
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 3: long time for them to come around to, but because

454
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 3: so many of the people who showed up to fight

455
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:11,680
Speaker 3: for them and their time of need were like, yeah,

456
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,399
Speaker 3: I've just spent six years in Northeast Syria doing the

457
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,440
Speaker 3: same thing, and they're like, all right, well, welcome to Europe.

458
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:18,199
Speaker 3: I guess you know.

459
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a really interesting effect where you can dramatically

460
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,360
Speaker 2: change a country's culture by showing up with a gun

461
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,879
Speaker 2: and defending people, yeah, you know, or like not even

462
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 2: necessarily with a gun. You can look at like there's

463
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,199
Speaker 2: solidarity is like really impactful, right, Like if you ever

464
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 2: want to cry, go watch that movie Pride.

465
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, about.

466
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 2: Gay rights groups in what the nineteen eighties in the

467
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,439
Speaker 2: UK who went to go defend the minor strike and

468
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,920
Speaker 2: were like hanging out in super rural England where they'd

469
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 2: never met gay people, and everyone just like learned it

470
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:51,919
Speaker 2: can get along. And as someone who's done a lot

471
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 2: of like I live in Appalachia and I spend a

472
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 2: lot of my time doing you know, work in Appalachia,

473
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,360
Speaker 2: and like, you know, in a lot of places people

474
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,479
Speaker 2: weren't necessarily used to seeing queer people and they're like,

475
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,879
Speaker 2: oh huh, well you showed up to help, you know,

476
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 2: and that matters more than almost anything else.

477
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,959
Speaker 3: This is oh my god, this is so close to

478
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 3: my sort of like philosophy of the left of like

479
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,399
Speaker 3: how so much of our movement thinks that leftism is

480
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 3: like a thing you do on the internet by believing

481
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 3: the right things and arguing with people about them. Right,

482
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 3: But it's like if more people associated socialists or anarchists

483
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:33,120
Speaker 3: or what leftists with like people who showed up at

484
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 3: their home with a box of dried goods after a

485
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 3: natural disaster, rather than what they hear about on Fox News.

486
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 3: We'd be much more popular people in Texas and Apple.

487
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 3: I was in like Weaverville, you know, for the floods.

488
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 3: I was doing relief in Nashville, and that's my people too,

489
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 3: Like I come from Lower Appalachis, so that was a

490
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 3: little bit easier to mix and stuff. But people were

491
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 3: often quite surprised to find out that I'm like, oh,

492
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 3: they'll follow me on Instagram and just like, oh, this

493
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 3: guy's like kind of politically radical or whatever. And because

494
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 3: their first context is like, oh, I'm just this guy

495
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 3: who like doesn't care what they look like or what

496
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 3: they've done. Remember this big tanky account has been like

497
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,120
Speaker 3: trying to chirp me for years. When I posted something

498
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 3: about how tragic it was that like Asheville, what happened

499
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 3: to Asheville and growing up to all those places, he

500
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:18,479
Speaker 3: basically said he was like, Oh, well that's what they

501
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 3: get for like voting for Trump.

502
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 2: Oh my god. And I was I was just like, man,

503
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 2: where's the There's eight things wrong with that. I don't

504
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 2: even know what it is.

505
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 3: Where's the working class solidarity?

506
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 1: You know?

507
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 3: And this is a guy who runs just like a

508
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 3: huge like tanky meme account. Yes, it's been weeks like

509
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:36,640
Speaker 3: making fun of everything from my hairline, to my work

510
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,399
Speaker 3: in Palestine to my work in Ukraine. Call me Cia Shill.

511
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 2: I've been meaning to talk to you about your hairline.

512
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,119
Speaker 2: By the way, it's just a it's devastating, right. I

513
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 2: don't even know what they would have said about it.

514
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,120
Speaker 2: I don't even join it. I'm making fun of.

515
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 1: It, but what is there to say?

516
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 3: I don't actually know. It felt like kind of their

517
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 3: version of transvestigating. It was more like they were like

518
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 3: hairline investigating. They're like comparing pictures to me, and they're

519
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,120
Speaker 3: like you could see he's like his hairline is receding

520
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 3: in this image, like as opposed to this one. And

521
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 3: they'd actually like reversed the dates of the image, like

522
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 3: the person was earlier than the other one.

523
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 2: Hell yeah.

524
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 3: And I was like, man, this is this is interesting

525
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 3: for sure?

526
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:16,120
Speaker 1: What a tactic?

527
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,159
Speaker 2: Well, do you know who will never transvestigate you?

528
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 3: I'm hoping the products and services that sponsor this podcast.

529
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 2: We give it are almost guarantee where we don't actually

530
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:32,160
Speaker 2: guarantee it, but we picked something really random, so it's unlikely.

531
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 3: Maybe less likely, I don't know, if unlikely fair.

532
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,439
Speaker 2: Enough, fair enough. These products and service less likely to

533
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 2: transvestigate you than someone who does it professionally, although I'm

534
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 2: secretly into trying to transvestigate people for trying to bring

535
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 2: them onto the team and accuse people of bingggx. But

536
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 2: that's my own problem. Anyway, here's ads and we're back.

537
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,479
Speaker 2: And during the break I learned about a bunch of

538
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 2: celebrities who I still don't know who, but so he

539
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 2: reminded me that I do like Harry Styles. I don't

540
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,159
Speaker 2: know what I'm saying when I say that I have

541
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 2: no content.

542
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 1: I played one song for you and you were like, oh,

543
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,119
Speaker 1: I like that. It's a pop song about sad things.

544
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 3: This is cool.

545
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 2: And then also he's the one who wrote the song

546
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 2: about liking going down on people.

547
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 1: This is true.

548
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 2: Those are the only two pieces of information I have

549
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 2: and that's enough.

550
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 1: And you don't need to know anybody.

551
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:22,719
Speaker 3: Yo.

552
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,199
Speaker 2: Great, I've discovered this man that no one else has

553
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,120
Speaker 2: heard of, Harry Styles.

554
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 3: You're the only new Harry Styles fan.

555
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 1: But Charles and I were talking about our mutual dislike

556
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 1: of Taylor Sheridan.

557
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 2: Who I don't know who is. I think it's Taylor Swift,

558
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 2: Mary and Sharon than Who's.

559
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 1: Not even close.

560
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 3: Nothing like that. Sophie has unfortunately given me a platform

561
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 3: for a grievance. I have been wanting a public platform

562
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 3: to share.

563
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 2: Okay, your time.

564
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 3: Taylor Sheridan is a filmmaker and a writer. He gave

565
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 3: us the three best Neo Western dramas created in the

566
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 3: past twenty five years are Ciicario, hell Or High Water,

567
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 3: and wind River. They are three excellent films, okay, and

568
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 3: taken together they are like the modern Western trilogy. They're

569
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 3: really good. Then he created Yellowstone, and he made so

570
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 3: much money off Yellowstone that he got a blank check

571
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 3: from I guess Paramount, right, that's them, Yeah, to do

572
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 3: what I call troop slop, yes, which is like it's

573
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 3: like this stuff that's like specifically targeted to like pass

574
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 3: the blood brain barrier of the MAGA audience, and it's

575
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 3: like it shows like Lioness. He did a prequel show

576
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 3: for Yellowstone, two prequel shows. They're both bad. Yellowstone's bad.

577
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 3: After watching Yellowstone, everyone in South Carolina, which is not

578
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 3: a Western place, started wearing cowboy boots and driving much

579
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 3: bigger trucks like they used to drive. Like, oh no,

580
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 3: that's terrible, it's so bad. They used to drive like

581
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 3: older Toyota Ta Comas and stuff, you know, like the

582
00:29:58,840 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 3: working man's vehicle.

583
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,479
Speaker 2: But no, no one can afford to keep a nineties Tacoma running.

584
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 2: This is my take. The bigger truck actually more working

585
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 2: class than the smaller truck. I say this because I

586
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 2: drive a giant I'm not gonna say what vehicle I drive.

587
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 2: I do drive a giant truck. And actually I am

588
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 2: going to say a truck I drive because I'm going

589
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 2: to go on my own tank.

590
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: Okay, the floor is yours.

591
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 2: You know how the Subaru is the lesbian outdoorsy car.

592
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: No, it is the official car of bisexuals. Please get

593
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 1: your fox straight.

594
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 2: I'm claiming that the Toyota Tundra is the butch lesbian

595
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 2: because every punk boy wants to drive an old nineties Tacoma.

596
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 2: Because I know Toyota advertises for us. But this is

597
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 2: not why I'm saying this. They want that Toyota reliability,

598
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,719
Speaker 2: and they want a truck, but they want the least

599
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 2: macho truck and the Toyota Tacoma is the least macho truck.

600
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 2: And I say this positively right because it's not American

601
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 2: maid even though they are American made, but it's not

602
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 2: an American brand, and it's the smallest truck they make.

603
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 2: It's not a tryhard truck at all. So people love

604
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 2: the Tacoma. Every punk boy wants a nineties Tacoma, but

605
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 2: US punk girls have nothing to prove, and we want

606
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 2: a bigger Trump so we can get Tundras. So this

607
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 2: is my theory. The super group is great for getting around,

608
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 2: but when you want to do like country shit and

609
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 2: you need a pickup truck and you're a lesbian Tundras,

610
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 2: the step up.

611
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you're still in the Toyota family. That's acceptable.

612
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 3: I'm talking about these gargantuan GMC monstrosities.

613
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 2: Oh no, no, it wouldn't be called dead. And I

614
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 2: actually don't care all that much about this. I don't

615
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 2: actually have any brand loyalty.

616
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 3: They looked like a love crafty and entity. That's like

617
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:41,239
Speaker 3: feasting off oil wells or something. I don't know, all right,

618
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 3: I just read raised in Nigaristani cyclonopedia, and I can't

619
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 3: think about war or the Middle East without thinking about

620
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 3: HP Lovecraft.

621
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 2: WHOA, all right, I should probably read that, but I

622
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 2: want to get back to our stool.

623
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, we went off the rails.

624
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, Sorry, Taylor Sheridan sucks SODA's landman troops.

625
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 2: So after Finn Barkafarki went to Rajsheva to fight against Isis,

626
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 2: he went to Ukraine after the invasion there, and he

627
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 2: worked at first as part of a vegan straight edge

628
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 2: solidarity organization. There's all of these solidarity organizations where people

629
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 2: go up and try and help with the material needs

630
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 2: of frontline fighters and things. And then he joined Solidarity Collectives,

631
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 2: which is an anti authoritarian solidarity organization. And then he

632
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 2: did what you've described as a very common thing. He

633
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 2: joined the fighting directly. His quote about it is that

634
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 2: he did it because quote, I have time and I

635
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 2: can be useful here, and I love how simple that is.

636
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 2: Then there was a black autonomist from Cleveland Heights in

637
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 2: Ohio who helped start the social center that I visit

638
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 2: in Cleveland all the time, the Rhizome House. Sorry in

639
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 2: Cleveland Heights. I have since learned that these are legally

640
00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 2: distinct cities. Cleveland Heights and Cleveland. He helped start the

641
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 2: Riizome House. He worked his ass off on mutual aid

642
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 2: initiatives his entire life, and he joined the Marines to

643
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 2: get the skills he would need to be an internationalist soldier.

644
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 2: He went to Ukraine after the invasion and he fought

645
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 2: for years before dying, holding open a humanitarian corridor. And Yeah,

646
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 2: when you're saying, like your friends everywhere, here is someone

647
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 2: from the gaeltech of Ireland, a black autonomist from Cleveland Heights,

648
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 2: and a Russian anti fascist who grew up fighting the fascists.

649
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 2: And they're fighting together, and they die together doing this thing.

650
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 2: And they're brought together both by a belief in creating

651
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 2: an anti authoritarian world and by trying to do that

652
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 2: directly by preventing an authoritarian takeover of Ukraine. These are

653
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 2: folks I've covered before, and I'm hoping to do more

654
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 2: about their lives and legacies in the future. I have

655
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 2: some stuff that I've been working on, but I wanted

656
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 2: to start with them and then get to the partisans.

657
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 2: I promised you.

658
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 3: But first, context contor context.

659
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 2: To crash course the Ukrainian Russian War. You've got this

660
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 2: totalitarian dictator in Russia named Vladimir Putin, who has been

661
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 2: in charge more or less for twenty six years now.

662
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 2: He likes when all the countries in his general vicinity

663
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,919
Speaker 2: are in lockstep with him, and neighboring Belarus has only

664
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 2: ever had one president, Alexander Lukashenko, who has been in

665
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 2: power since nineteen ninety four and is not not a dictator.

666
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 2: Whenever you have a president who's been president for thirty

667
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 2: two years, it's just like, not a good sign. In

668
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 2: twenty thirteen, the Ukrainian president was a guy named Victor Yanikovich.

669
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 2: He'd actually started off I don't know a ton about

670
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 2: this man. He started off as like the democracy guy.

671
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 2: He wanted closer ties with the West, and then he

672
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 2: was like, actually, this oligarchy thing sounds kind of good.

673
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 2: What if we went Russian instead? But the Ukrainian people,

674
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:01,479
Speaker 2: from way across the political spectrum, we're like, no, we don't.

675
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 2: We don't want that though, and so they had a

676
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 2: revolution in twenty thirteen what's called Euromaidan. It was a

677
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 2: very modern form of a revolution, with more protests than

678
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:14,839
Speaker 2: armed struggle, but it was a protest that saw more

679
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 2: than one hundred protesters die. The struggle started off more

680
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:23,359
Speaker 2: democratic and nationalist forces slowly gained more power within it,

681
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 2: but it still wasn't controlled by any single ideology, and

682
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 2: anarchists from this region are very clear that this was

683
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 2: not taken over by Nazis the way that Russian propaganda

684
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 2: claims that it was, Because Russian propaganda stations basically claimed

685
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,919
Speaker 2: that Nazis had just taken over Ukraine and those same

686
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 2: Nazis were going to head east to the parts of

687
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 2: Ukraine that are even more ethnically Russian than the rest

688
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,720
Speaker 2: of Ukraine and then go genocide all the Russian ethnic

689
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:54,240
Speaker 2: people living within Ukraine.

690
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 3: This was not true, which if we could pause real quick, Mary,

691
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 3: do you know why there are so many Ethnicrussians in

692
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 3: Eastern Ukraine. Let's talk about it. Well, there's this thing

693
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 3: called ethnic cleansing, which it turns out communists can do

694
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 3: just as well as just find anybody else. There have

695
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:15,280
Speaker 3: been many programs of rucification in Ukraine, particularly in the east,

696
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 3: and the latest wave. The reason there are so many

697
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 3: you know, puden Nois in most the Russian speakers in

698
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 3: eastern Ukraine. The reason there are so many Russian speakers,

699
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 3: so many ethnic Russians is because of previous waves of

700
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 3: state backed relocation projects to settle Russians in Eastern Ukraine,

701
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 3: particularly during and after the Holodomor, which was the man

702
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 3: made famine that starved famillions of Ukrainians during Stalin's tenure.

703
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:41,800
Speaker 3: So the people in the Eastern Ukraine are the descendants

704
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:42,719
Speaker 3: of those people.

705
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, which doesn't it's not their fault. No, these are

706
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 2: my friends, But that is why they're there, is because

707
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 2: of an ethnic cleansing.

708
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I spent most of my time with these

709
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 3: Russian speakers in Eastern Ukraine. I mean they are fighting

710
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:55,799
Speaker 3: just as hard for Ukraine as everybody else, if not harder,

711
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 3: because they're baring the brunt of those attacks places like

712
00:36:57,960 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 3: Harkiv obviously, Donetsky and Luhanski.

713
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 2: So yeah, no, and that gets left out of it

714
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,720
Speaker 2: whenever people try and like simplify things into ethnic struggle,

715
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:07,720
Speaker 2: which is like not what's happening.

716
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, my friends there, they're so inspiring to me. One

717
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 3: of the times they were chattering together over dinner and

718
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 3: they said, Charles, we know you don't understand what we're saying,

719
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,320
Speaker 3: but we're talking about how we all speak Russian to

720
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 3: each other, but our kids will be speaking Ukrainian.

721
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 2: Oh interesting, Yeah, how do they feel about that?

722
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:25,439
Speaker 3: They were saying that was aspirational?

723
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:26,359
Speaker 2: Oh sick.

724
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, some of them learned Ukrainian during this war, I mean,

725
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 3: because they feel like their identity is Ukrainian, even if

726
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 3: they're Russian speakers. You know, Russian is also you know,

727
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 3: like a huge identity. Most of the people in Ukraine

728
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 3: obviously speak Russian. But it was interesting that the people

729
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 3: who putin claims that he's defending, that he's saving, they

730
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 3: thought it aspirational that like their children would speak Ukrainian

731
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 3: even though they speak Russian.

732
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, this next part of it, the script, is about

733
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 2: some of this stuff because I feel like it's like wild,

734
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:58,360
Speaker 2: very misunderstood, because we get propagandized about this all the time.

735
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 2: And there were after Euromidon, which in twenty thirteen, pro

736
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 2: Russian protests started in the East and they were fueled

737
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:12,280
Speaker 2: by all kinds of disinformation. Russia spread a hoax claiming

738
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 2: that Ukrainians had crucified a three year old and dragged

739
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 2: him behind a tank. And to be clear, the Ukrainian

740
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 2: far right did gain a fair amount of political and

741
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 2: cultural power in the wake of the revolution. For that

742
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 2: reason that we talked about earlier that the left can

743
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 2: also do. They were in the streets like they were

744
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 2: part of this, and so that gained them sympathy. The

745
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,359
Speaker 2: Azov Battalion, a right wing military unit, was, and I

746
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 2: think is still one of the most effective military forces

747
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 2: in Ukraine. As some anonymous Ukrainian anarchists put it in

748
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 2: an article released in twenty twenty two, just before the

749
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 2: war quote, the far right made its way into the mainstream.

750
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,839
Speaker 2: They were invited to participate in television shows and other

751
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 2: corporate media platforms on which were presented as nationalists. In

752
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 2: twenty fourteen to twenty sixteen, anyone who was ready to

753
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 2: fight was embraced, whether it was a Nazi and anarchist,

754
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:13,360
Speaker 2: a kingpin from an organized crime syndicate, or a politician

755
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 2: who did not carry out any of his promises. So

756
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 2: basically people are like, yeah, like any port in a storm.

757
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's absolutely what it was. I mean, it literally

758
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 3: is like that third season or like the third act

759
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 3: of the show where like all the people come together

760
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 3: and like put aside their differences to fight Danos or

761
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 3: Suran or whatever. Yeah, that is I remember his story

762
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 3: in the early days of the war. This guy was

763
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 3: telling me how he worked at like a local municipal

764
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 3: sort of like like a depot kind of for the

765
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 3: for the territorial of Defense units. And on like February

766
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 3: twenty sixth or twenty seventh, this guy droves up in

767
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 3: like two like black Escalator or whatever their equivalent, like

768
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 3: black Escalate. Its probably G wagons or something, and he

769
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 3: cops out with sunglasses and a leather jacket and he's like,

770
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 3: is this the territorial defense station? And they're like, yeah, oh,

771
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,720
Speaker 3: what do you want? And he just like makes a call.

772
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 3: All these other trucks come and they just offload a

773
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:07,359
Speaker 3: bunch of AK forty seven.

774
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:10,880
Speaker 2: He's just a crime man, and he was like, my

775
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 2: powers are needed. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

776
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 3: He's like, I'm okay with crime, but I draw the

777
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 3: line at Russian imperialism.

778
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:23,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean okay, you know, like, but Nazis didn't

779
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:27,280
Speaker 2: seize Ukraine after this revolution in twenty thirteen, and Ukraine

780
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 2: continued and continues to be a safer place for leftists

781
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 2: and anarchists than Russia by several orders of magnitude. There's

782
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 2: a reason that there was this massive community of expatriates

783
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 2: or you know refugees essentially who had fled Russia. Russia

784
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:46,760
Speaker 2: under Putin is wildly right wing and imperialist, to quote

785
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 2: those same anonymous Ukrainian anarchists quote, Modern Russian imperialism is

786
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 2: built on the perception that Russia is the successor of

787
00:40:55,120 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 2: the USSR, not in its political system, but on territorial rounds.

788
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 2: The Putin regime sees the Soviet victory in World War

789
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 2: II not as an ideological victory over Nazism, but as

790
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 2: a victory over Europe that shows the strength of Russia.

791
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 2: The narrative is essentially as follows, the US and Europe

792
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 2: we're afraid of the strong USSR. Russia is the successor

793
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 2: to the USSR, and the entire territory of the former

794
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 2: USSR is Russian. Russian tanks entered Berlin, which means we

795
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 2: can do it again and will show NATO who is

796
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 2: strongest here. The reason Europe is rotting is because of

797
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 2: all of the gays and emigrants are out of control there,

798
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 2: which just no wonder. Trump loves Russia.

799
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a fucking loser.

800
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 2: Take yeah yeah. And the fact that Russian nationalism, including

801
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 2: the far right, loves Soviet imagery is worth understanding, and

802
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 2: it goes over the head of a lot of Western

803
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 2: leftists who are like Hammer and Sickle means it's my friend,

804
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 2: you know, their heart getting back to an era of

805
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,360
Speaker 2: great power. They like the things about the USSR that

806
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 2: I am critical about about the USSR. They do not

807
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 2: like the things about the USSR that people claim to

808
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 2: like about the USSR. If you're on the left right,

809
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 2: they don't have any love for communism. But then you

810
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 2: get an interesting inverse of that. Again, as I'm kind

811
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 2: of cribbing from these Ukrainian anarchists talking about this, the

812
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 2: Ukrainian right wing's embrace of Nazi imagery is sort of parallel.

813
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 2: The nationalists fighting in Eastern Ukraine moved more and more

814
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,360
Speaker 2: towards Nazi imagery, specifically as a sort of anti Russian

815
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 2: reference to a call back to World War Two. To

816
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:42,319
Speaker 2: be clear, a lot of them are Nazis. There are

817
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:44,479
Speaker 2: just a lot of Nazis on both sides of this war,

818
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 2: and Eastern Ukraine was where Ukrainian right wing nationalists fought

819
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,839
Speaker 2: Russian right wing nationalists for eight years. But so it's

820
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 2: like worth understanding that the part of the reason they

821
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 2: use all the swastika shit is because they're Nazis. And

822
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 2: the other part is that they're trolling the fake Soviets.

823
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 2: And if I could, if I could add an additional

824
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:07,360
Speaker 2: level of nuance to that, please, there's a lot of

825
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 2: fake Nazis. Yeah, like just they're fake Soviets. You got

826
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 2: the Russian tanks, you know, supporting a right wing fascist government,

827
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 2: but with the flag of the Soviet Union. Because again

828
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 2: they're they're calling back to this the sandwich is the

829
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 2: last time we gave Europe a black eye, well the

830
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 2: last people to kind of give the Soviets a black

831
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:27,279
Speaker 2: eye with the Germans. Like, I think something people don't

832
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:31,800
Speaker 2: realize is that like American tanks would put Swastika flags

833
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 2: and Confederate flags on their battle tanks in Vietnam just

834
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:38,799
Speaker 2: because people thought it was badass. It was like putting

835
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 2: a pirate flag. Yeah, that makes sense.

836
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 3: They fully understood that their dads had like gone against

837
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 3: this group, but they were like, oh, that's like hardcore.

838
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:48,959
Speaker 3: And even in the minds of like a kid from

839
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:51,279
Speaker 3: like a Jewish family who was like, I want to

840
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 3: be like hardcore, Like maybe you put the Confederate flag

841
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 3: or the Nazi flag and not even thinking about the

842
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 3: actual implications of that. And I know this sounds insane

843
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 3: to an American audience, but like, not everyone who was

844
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:08,320
Speaker 3: trafficking in far right Nazi imagery in Ukraine is themselves

845
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 3: a Nazi. That might seem counterintuitive, but if you understand,

846
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 3: like their cultural bully has always been Russia. Yeah, it

847
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 3: has always been Russia. And they see Lenin and they

848
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 3: see the Soviet Union as just another form of Muscovite imperialism,

849
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 3: which had the effect of suffocating Ukrainian nationalism, Ukrainian cultural identity.

850
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 3: And so when you're like maybe not the most educated

851
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:41,759
Speaker 3: or certainly someone who hasn't been raised on like the

852
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 3: constant drip feed of Holocaust bad, Nazis bad. They are

853
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:49,279
Speaker 3: the arch villain of Western history. Like you kind of

854
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 3: just see these guys as like the badasses who gave

855
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:54,239
Speaker 3: the Soviets or the Russians, to be clear, a bad

856
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:57,320
Speaker 3: eye because Ukrainians were Soviets too, Like hundreds of thousands

857
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 3: of Ukrainians died to liberate Berlin, you know, to liberate

858
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 3: Eastern Europe.

859
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, yeah.

860
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:04,880
Speaker 3: People always talk about the forty or so thousand that

861
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 3: worked with the UPA, and that you know that with

862
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 3: Bandera and these guys. But like, far more Ukrainians died

863
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 3: fighting for the Soviet Union than died fighting against it.

864
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, like it is, the USSR is just as much

865
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 2: Ukraine's heritage as it is Russia's. Yeah, like Ukraine was

866
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:23,880
Speaker 2: a huge chunk of the Red Army.

867
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 3: And also Ukraine is a huge chunk of the technical

868
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 3: development of the Soviet Union. You know, Harkiv, I'm pretty

869
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 3: sure that's where they came up with the atom baum

870
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 3: or like synthesized that. Okay, you had a lot of

871
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 3: the science and technology, the cosmonaut stuff coming out of Ukraine,

872
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:41,400
Speaker 3: which is why they're so technically proficient today because it

873
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 3: was the tech hub of the Soviet Union. Now it's

874
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 3: one of the tech hubs in Europe. That was a

875
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:46,399
Speaker 3: bit of a tangent, but yeah, what.

876
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:47,799
Speaker 2: You said you wanted to come up with something new

877
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 2: to get canceled on, and this is what it is

878
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 2: going to be, is you're trying to add nuance this

879
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 2: thing that is like very hard. It's actually very similar

880
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 2: to talking about old punks using swastikas in the seventies,

881
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 2: For you really had Nazi punks, you had punk bands,

882
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:08,359
Speaker 2: using swastikas who weren't Nazis, like Suzie Sue and the Banjees, right,

883
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:11,319
Speaker 2: who have a racist name and picked Nazi imagery and

884
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 2: like sure failed on a lot of fronts, but they

885
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 2: weren't ideologically Nazis, right, Yeah, it was a fuck you dad,

886
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 2: the same as the Iron Cross as part of biker

887
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:24,320
Speaker 2: culture in America. It does come out of a history

888
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:26,799
Speaker 2: of fascism. It actually comes out of a history of

889
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:32,799
Speaker 2: your dad killed Nazis and took their metals. Yeah, but

890
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 2: it's cool and badass, right, And like, I certainly would

891
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:40,719
Speaker 2: encourage people to not try and use like, like fuck

892
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 2: a swastika.

893
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 3: You know, I would like to point out Margaret and

894
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 3: I on the record would like to say we are

895
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:49,880
Speaker 3: not in favor of utilizing Nazi imagery in any form.

896
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:53,759
Speaker 2: But it is worth understanding, and like, he'll be the

897
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 2: thing that I'll say that will be my thing that

898
00:46:56,520 --> 00:47:00,880
Speaker 2: won't look great. There is a version of Nazi prison

899
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 2: gangs in the United States. One time I yelled at

900
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:07,200
Speaker 2: an armed murderer in the desert for having a swastika tattoo.

901
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:10,360
Speaker 2: It was not the smartest thing I've ever done, but

902
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:13,840
Speaker 2: he apologized he'd actually had it covered up, and I

903
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 2: was like, what the fuck, why did you have a

904
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 2: swastika tattoo? And he was like, but he apologized, yeah, yeah.

905
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 3: No.

906
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 2: I later my friend was like, I specifically told you

907
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:24,720
Speaker 2: not to fuck with this man. He is a murderer

908
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:29,359
Speaker 2: and has a gun. But it worked out, okay. And

909
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:32,479
Speaker 2: like people, when you go to prison, if you're white,

910
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:34,799
Speaker 2: you should not join the Nazis. But there is a

911
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 2: thing where it is like you are taking a huge

912
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 2: fucking danger to your life and limb by not joining

913
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,720
Speaker 2: the gang that will take you. Yeah, in prison. Oh yeah,

914
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:50,840
Speaker 2: I believe we do ask people to hold themselves to

915
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 2: that higher level, right, But like, there is a difference

916
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:58,439
Speaker 2: between a prison Nazi and a regular Nazi, and there's

917
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 2: a huge overlap, and everyone's gonna over simplify this. And

918
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 2: I've never been so terrified to say something with nuance

919
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 2: on this show, But there it is.

920
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 3: Was the guy you met in the desert? Was his

921
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 3: name Graham Platiner?

922
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:10,400
Speaker 2: By any chance, No, I've heard that man's name.

923
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 3: He's the guy who's running against Susan Collins in Maine's

924
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 3: Susan Collins.

925
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:17,800
Speaker 2: Oh oh, a swastika tattoo.

926
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Swasta covered up and his explanation. It was

927
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,279
Speaker 3: really funny. Everyone was clowning him for it because he

928
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 3: was like or.

929
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:25,439
Speaker 2: Was like ss bolts or something. What was it death?

930
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:27,600
Speaker 3: Heead, I can't, Yeah, no, it's like death sad tattoo.

931
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 3: He's like, yeah, like I got this in the military

932
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 3: because I was told it was badass, that I was

933
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 3: pretty badass, and like, to me, that made total sense

934
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:36,080
Speaker 3: because I feel like I've met like, you know, we

935
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:37,399
Speaker 3: talked about like types of guy.

936
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a type of guy.

937
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 3: That's the type of guy, and I've met him all

938
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:43,440
Speaker 3: over the place in Ukraine or in Syria, Like they

939
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:45,840
Speaker 3: are guys who fought for the YEPG who have Nazi tats,

940
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:47,879
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. Yah're like got him later,

941
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 3: you know, but it's more of like a oh yeah,

942
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 3: Like when I was twenty two, yeah, in the Marine Corps,

943
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:57,760
Speaker 3: I kind of thought having like an Afrika Core tat

944
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 3: would be sick because that was like bad ass and controversial.

945
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 3: Right now, I'm forty nine and I realized that that

946
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 3: was probably a mistake and that his explanation made total

947
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 3: sense to me. But I also understood why people who

948
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 3: had never met type of guy would be like outraged

949
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 3: by what he said.

950
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 2: No, and it's like, we do need to hold ourselves

951
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 2: to a high enough level that you're like, look, you

952
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 2: can't be a teenage edge lord anymore. You are a

953
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:26,799
Speaker 2: grown ass adult, you know, and like, but the thing

954
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 2: you're saying about Ukrainian nationalists is worth understanding, and it's

955
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:34,799
Speaker 2: worth understanding because we need to understand why people are

956
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:39,920
Speaker 2: like engaging with these folks, you know. Anyway, there's fighting

957
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:44,320
Speaker 2: in eastern Ukraine between various nationalist forces on both sides.

958
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 2: In February twenty twenty two, four years ago now, Russia

959
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 2: went for full scale invasion of Ukraine and they expected

960
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 2: to conquer the whole country in a matter of days.

961
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:58,439
Speaker 2: But instead, four years on, we've got a stalemate, although

962
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:00,440
Speaker 2: one that as best as I understand you, Krane has

963
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 2: been slowly losing. In Ukraine. It seems like most anarchists,

964
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:07,720
Speaker 2: whether they're from Ukraine or from the Belarusian or Russian

965
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 2: expatriate scenes, are fighting within the military and Belarus and Russia, though,

966
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:16,680
Speaker 2: people not just anarchists, are fighting the war with far

967
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 2: more vigor than I've ever seen. The US anti war

968
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 2: movement manage. But do you know, if you want your vigor,

969
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:34,680
Speaker 2: buy pills from advertisers guaranteed to vigorate, not reinvigorate. We're

970
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 2: counting on you having never had any vigor. They vigorate

971
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 2: for the first time. Gender affirming pills, the gender affirming pills,

972
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:44,439
Speaker 2: All of the products and services that support the show

973
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 2: are gender affirming. Even if they're terrible things. You will

974
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:51,319
Speaker 2: feel affirmed in your gender if you will, probably if

975
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:52,920
Speaker 2: you skip them, but I mean if you listen to

976
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:59,520
Speaker 2: them and buy things. Here's the ads and we're back.

977
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:04,400
Speaker 2: We know that Russia didn't manage to sweep across Ukraine

978
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 2: like they thought they would. And I love pulling out

979
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:10,759
Speaker 2: a red stringboard and coming up with some reason why

980
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:13,439
Speaker 2: anarchists have saved the world. And I've got another one

981
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 2: for you today. Russia was trying to blitz creak Ukraine,

982
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:20,719
Speaker 2: and I'm using that terminology very intentionally to harken back

983
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 2: to the invasion of Poland by Germany World War II,

984
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:28,279
Speaker 2: and they wanted to go through their allied country Belarus

985
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:31,600
Speaker 2: to do it. I'm curious about your take on this.

986
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 2: It's hard to know how different the world would have

987
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:36,960
Speaker 2: been if Russia had walked all over Ukraine like they

988
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 2: planned on, it's possible that Ukraine would have been the

989
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:45,279
Speaker 2: Poland for World War three. And my comparison here would

990
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:47,520
Speaker 2: be like, it's how when anarchists and cops in Spain

991
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:50,360
Speaker 2: stopped a fascist coup in nineteen thirty six, dragging Franco

992
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:53,360
Speaker 2: into a year's long civil war that dehabilitated the country.

993
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:56,400
Speaker 2: We don't know how differently world War two would have

994
00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:59,520
Speaker 2: gone if that hadn't happened. If people hadn't stopped the

995
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 2: fascist coup within Spain, a fascist have been able to

996
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 2: take the country quickly. Spain was a minor player and

997
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:08,279
Speaker 2: technically neutral world War two. But part of the reason

998
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:09,960
Speaker 2: they were a minor player and neutral is that their

999
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:13,520
Speaker 2: economy had just been crippled by war. So it matters,

1000
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:16,360
Speaker 2: is my claim. It matters that when Russia tried to

1001
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:20,319
Speaker 2: move troops through Belarus they met fierce resistance, not from

1002
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:22,719
Speaker 2: the country of Belarus. The country of Belarus is like, fuck, yeah,

1003
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 2: come on through, you are our friends. Belarusian anarchists had

1004
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:30,319
Speaker 2: several years of experience fucking up the railway infrastructure in

1005
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 2: their own country by that point, because that country was

1006
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 2: and is authoritarian, and so anarchists try hard to frustrate

1007
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 2: the movements of government troops and all of that. So

1008
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:44,640
Speaker 2: Russian supply lines were fucked right at the beginning of

1009
00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 2: the war, to quote an article from The Insider, Belarusian

1010
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:54,320
Speaker 2: partisans quote disrupted railway signaling control panels. As a result,

1011
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 2: trains stood idle for days, forcing Russians to use trucks

1012
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:01,759
Speaker 2: to resupply their troops. That in turn led to the

1013
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:06,960
Speaker 2: famous sixty kilometer convoys north of Kiev. So that's my

1014
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:11,720
Speaker 2: big red string board theory. Even the CIA was telling

1015
00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:14,800
Speaker 2: everyone that Kiev was going to fall in three days. Yeah,

1016
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 2: you know, if.

1017
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:18,400
Speaker 3: Kiev had fallen, I think it would have been a

1018
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:22,759
Speaker 3: lot harder to do the like Zelenski, We're going to

1019
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:25,800
Speaker 3: rally the country, We're going to fight back the Russians,

1020
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:27,800
Speaker 3: Like if they had been able to take the capital,

1021
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:31,680
Speaker 3: that would have dramatically shifted the battle lines, and I

1022
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 3: think like the spirit of resistance. Yeah, so yeah, maybe

1023
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:39,400
Speaker 3: it did. Maybe your red string theory is correct. Although

1024
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:41,920
Speaker 3: Russians also have a way of fucking things up for themselves,

1025
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 3: which can never be underestimated.

1026
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:48,280
Speaker 2: They do seem to specifically like sending untrained and poorly

1027
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:51,799
Speaker 2: equipped men to go die like even that glorious Red

1028
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:54,279
Speaker 2: Army stuff. I read a bunch of accounts from Red

1029
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 2: Army survivors who were like, they didn't give me a gun.

1030
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 2: They told me that I had to go to the

1031
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 2: front line and wait for someone with a gun to die,

1032
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:06,839
Speaker 2: to die, and then also things like they told us

1033
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:08,760
Speaker 2: to attack tanks with our bare hands.

1034
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:15,080
Speaker 3: Wow, the glorious Red Army was I mean, I do

1035
00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 3: not want to the sacrifice of the Soviet people during

1036
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 3: that war was tremendous and should never be minimized.

1037
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, that the Soviet people stopped the Nazis.

1038
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 3: And also, m this is everyone's like stalin Pete Hitler. No,

1039
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 3: he fucking did it. First of all, he signed them

1040
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:29,680
Speaker 3: all a toa Ribon tromp packed an alliance or a

1041
00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:32,760
Speaker 3: non aggression pact with Hitler, and then he spent six

1042
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:37,400
Speaker 3: years completely gutting the officer corps of the Soviet Army

1043
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:40,919
Speaker 3: so that when Hitler did the inevitable and he didn't listen,

1044
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:44,279
Speaker 3: didn't listen to his intelligence operofs saying, yo, Hitler's about

1045
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:46,360
Speaker 3: to invade, Like this guy's about to invade the soviety.

1046
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:47,759
Speaker 3: He's like, no, you never do that. He likes me

1047
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:50,839
Speaker 3: personally as like guy to guy. Yeah, and then they

1048
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:53,880
Speaker 3: did and he and they literally is basically Field Marshal's Zukov.

1049
00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:55,320
Speaker 2: This is Pikachu shockface.

1050
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:58,200
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, no, like he Pikachu shock face and Field

1051
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:02,560
Speaker 3: Marshal Zukov like pulled the Soviet military into the twentieth

1052
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 3: century and like somehow rallied them to fight because he

1053
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:08,240
Speaker 3: was one of the last people that Stalin hadn't purged

1054
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:10,440
Speaker 3: from the officer court, and that is the only reason

1055
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:13,240
Speaker 3: that the Soviets beat them, which is why he immediately

1056
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:15,719
Speaker 3: got sidelined after the war was over, because even though

1057
00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 3: he was a war hero, he threatened Stalin because of

1058
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 3: his popularity.

1059
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:21,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, a really good way to get killed by the

1060
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:24,160
Speaker 2: Bolsheviks is to be a Bolshevik and to be one

1061
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:26,920
Speaker 2: of the first Bolsheviks, to be someone who really believes

1062
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:28,879
Speaker 2: in the revolution was a really good way to get

1063
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:32,719
Speaker 2: killed by the Bolsheviks. So the reason that Belarusian and

1064
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:36,879
Speaker 2: anarchists and other activists, I actually when I read about this,

1065
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:39,799
Speaker 2: I see the word activists and anarchists used interchangeably, and

1066
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:42,279
Speaker 2: I do not know as much I know more about

1067
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:44,239
Speaker 2: the political ideology of most of the other players of

1068
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:46,080
Speaker 2: who I'm going to be talking about this week. I

1069
00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:49,080
Speaker 2: don't know as much here. But the reason that they

1070
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 2: had experienced fucking up the rail lines is that Belarus

1071
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 2: had been cracking down on protests for years, especially starting

1072
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:57,799
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty one, so various groups got frustrated and

1073
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:02,040
Speaker 2: started learning how to attack state infrastry structure. And I

1074
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 2: think the most likely thing is that they're actually the

1075
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:09,279
Speaker 2: same people and organizations that later became the or were

1076
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:12,799
Speaker 2: the combat organization of anarchist communists. But when you're doing

1077
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:15,439
Speaker 2: underground grilla shit, you don't always like sign your name.

1078
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:18,279
Speaker 2: And I kind of wish I'd focused on the Belarusian

1079
00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:20,839
Speaker 2: folks for an entire episode, and maybe they'll get more

1080
00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:24,720
Speaker 2: spotlights soon. They did all kinds of shit. They drone

1081
00:56:24,719 --> 00:56:28,640
Speaker 2: attacked a military training base, They used computers to hack

1082
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:31,840
Speaker 2: into the mainframe. They fucked up the rail lines and

1083
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:35,880
Speaker 2: destroyed databases and backups and encrypted everything so that Russia

1084
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:40,319
Speaker 2: couldn't use their train lines to slow Russia down right

1085
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:43,359
Speaker 2: at the beginning of the war. And so yeah, there's

1086
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:45,000
Speaker 2: a chance that we would be in World War three

1087
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:48,040
Speaker 2: without these people having done this, I don't know, I

1088
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:51,560
Speaker 2: genuinely don't know what would happen if I'm curious what

1089
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:54,920
Speaker 2: you think were if Russia had just stomped Ukraine, Like,

1090
00:56:56,400 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 2: would they have stayed there? Would they have been like,

1091
00:56:58,200 --> 00:56:59,760
Speaker 2: that's it, That's all we wanted.

1092
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:00,800
Speaker 1: It's a great question.

1093
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:05,279
Speaker 3: I think it's difficult to say, because had they gone

1094
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 3: any further, they obviously would have triggered NATO Article five.

1095
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:09,839
Speaker 3: And we now know had they done that, they would

1096
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:13,640
Speaker 3: have got curb stomped. Like. The Russian military in twenty

1097
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:16,600
Speaker 3: twenty two was a hot mess. It was unprepared to

1098
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:21,120
Speaker 3: fight that war. It is likely better now simply because

1099
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 3: it is one of two militaries on Earth to have

1100
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:29,560
Speaker 3: four years of experience of peer to peer combat in

1101
00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:33,240
Speaker 3: twenty first century trench, drone artillery warfare.

1102
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:35,640
Speaker 2: What a fun future we came We came up with

1103
00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:38,920
Speaker 2: the worst version of redoing World War One. I know,

1104
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:42,000
Speaker 2: it's yeah, it's just it's worse. And now we just

1105
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:46,400
Speaker 2: like upload videos of nineteen year olds being killed by

1106
00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:52,000
Speaker 2: FPV drones to like fundraise for stuff. Yeah, cyberpunk future.

1107
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:56,240
Speaker 3: I've a Venezuelan friend who says he says, yeah, this

1108
00:57:56,280 --> 00:57:58,600
Speaker 3: is all coming to you guys. He says, we have Venezuelans,

1109
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:00,200
Speaker 3: we had this, saying we come from the future. Sure

1110
00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:03,320
Speaker 3: it sucks here.

1111
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:05,520
Speaker 1: Just like Robert and I talk about this, Robert Evans

1112
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:07,200
Speaker 1: by Visus Preen and I talk about it all the time.

1113
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:09,720
Speaker 1: Just like the fact that you could just like livestream

1114
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:14,720
Speaker 1: like horrific crimes against humanity, and just like war is

1115
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:20,240
Speaker 1: being shown as it happens all across the Internet is

1116
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:24,480
Speaker 1: something that I don't think that we as society were

1117
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 1: prepared for.

1118
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:27,680
Speaker 2: I don't think we as a human animal are prepared

1119
00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:27,920
Speaker 2: for that.

1120
00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:32,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and like people, most people, almost all people not

1121
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:33,600
Speaker 1: handling it.

1122
00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:36,120
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, yeah.

1123
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:38,600
Speaker 3: I made a video about this recently where I was

1124
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:40,680
Speaker 3: just kind of like, can you guys please stop like

1125
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:44,240
Speaker 3: sending me combat footage and like video, can you stop

1126
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:47,200
Speaker 3: watching videos of people dying violently like it is doing

1127
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:50,720
Speaker 3: stuff you were experiencing vicarious trauma in your head.

1128
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 1: I have that, And especially when there's like any kind

1129
00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 1: of like mass shooter situation in the US, please stop

1130
00:58:56,840 --> 00:58:58,840
Speaker 1: sending me that shit. I've seen it. I didn't want

1131
00:58:58,880 --> 00:58:59,800
Speaker 1: to see it the first time.

1132
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Well, if you want to support the Belarusian

1133
00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:10,880
Speaker 2: anarchists who've been arrested for this kind of thing, which

1134
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:13,160
Speaker 2: is actually not as many of them have been arrested

1135
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:14,640
Speaker 2: as I think we're doing it, but I don't know.

1136
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:17,680
Speaker 2: There's a prisoner support group called Anarchist Black Cross Belarus

1137
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:20,680
Speaker 2: that is worth looking up and supporting. They make it

1138
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:22,640
Speaker 2: way easier to donate. Usually, if you're trying to like

1139
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:27,280
Speaker 2: donate places, it's hard. You have to like join telegram

1140
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:30,800
Speaker 2: and use cryptocurrency and do Anarchist Black Cross Belarus makes

1141
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:33,160
Speaker 2: it slightly easier. I believe they still have a Patreon.

1142
00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:35,920
Speaker 2: I haven't actually checked. They have a list of prisoners

1143
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:38,000
Speaker 2: they support on their site. You can read about various

1144
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:42,840
Speaker 2: folks cases and fighting fascism there and those Belarusian Partisans

1145
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:46,600
Speaker 2: they inspired the Russian Partisans, and we're going to talk

1146
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:51,320
Speaker 2: about those partisans, including the single most cyberpunk DIY sabotage

1147
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:55,200
Speaker 2: attack I've ever read about in my life on Wednesday.

1148
00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:57,640
Speaker 2: But for now, I think you want to plug.

1149
00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:00,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, while we're on the subjective, Crane does

1150
01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:04,160
Speaker 3: a great group called Solidarity Collectives that you should check

1151
01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:07,200
Speaker 3: out on Instagram and elsewhere. There's also a Radical Aid

1152
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:11,080
Speaker 3: Force who is a bunch of Polish and European folks

1153
01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 3: who are getting aid to Ukraine, have been for four years.

1154
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:20,000
Speaker 3: They make a sick nester macno black Army flag hoodie.

1155
01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:21,000
Speaker 2: Oh sick cool.

1156
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:23,440
Speaker 3: Every time I wear it in one of my videos,

1157
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:25,400
Speaker 3: I get all these people being like yo. So I

1158
01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:27,720
Speaker 3: don't know how much business I've driven to them, but

1159
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:30,040
Speaker 3: it's a fundraising dam. The profits for that go to

1160
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:34,720
Speaker 3: go to help Ukrainian anarchists, so that's good personally. You

1161
01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:38,200
Speaker 3: can find my substack it's just Charles McBride with a Y.

1162
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:42,800
Speaker 3: It's called Refused Dystopia, but the substack hyperlink is Charles McBride.

1163
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:46,200
Speaker 3: I am that name on all platforms, so you'll find

1164
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:48,720
Speaker 3: me bouncing around. I've probably been on your four you

1165
01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:50,800
Speaker 3: page already based on what I'm hearing.

1166
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:54,560
Speaker 2: Charles with a y. Everyone has to remember that's Charles with.

1167
01:00:54,760 --> 01:01:00,720
Speaker 3: Charles, Charles with a y. It's Ukrainian. Actually, yeah, McBride

1168
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:04,400
Speaker 3: is with McBride all right.

1169
01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:07,520
Speaker 2: And if you want to read about anarchists that were

1170
01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:10,360
Speaker 2: in other places, James Stout has a new book out

1171
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:15,320
Speaker 2: called Against the State. And if you want to read

1172
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:19,000
Speaker 2: the things that I say in other contexts. I have

1173
01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:22,400
Speaker 2: a substock also, it's Margaret Kiljoy dot substock dot com.

1174
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:24,160
Speaker 2: And you can put a Y anywhere you want in

1175
01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:26,320
Speaker 2: that and it won't work, but you could try it.

1176
01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:27,080
Speaker 3: Well.

1177
01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:29,160
Speaker 2: Actually there is a Y in Killjoy. Actually, so it's

1178
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:31,760
Speaker 2: kill Joy with a wy. It's this is fun. It's

1179
01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:34,320
Speaker 2: always fun to make jokes about people's names. I've learned

1180
01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:36,640
Speaker 2: that this is the single way to endear yourself to

1181
01:01:36,640 --> 01:01:40,360
Speaker 2: people is make jokes about their names. Sophie, you GotY

1182
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:41,040
Speaker 2: thing you want to plug?

1183
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:45,080
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards now has full episodes streaming on Netflix,

1184
01:01:45,080 --> 01:01:48,560
Speaker 1: available worldwide except for Korea and Vietnam. And I have

1185
01:01:48,600 --> 01:01:51,880
Speaker 1: no idea why, but was told that so worldwide minus

1186
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:53,840
Speaker 1: those two places, sorry countries.

1187
01:01:54,520 --> 01:01:56,840
Speaker 2: And you can see me on Is it the first

1188
01:01:56,920 --> 01:01:58,360
Speaker 2: episode that went up or is it one.

1189
01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:00,240
Speaker 1: Of one of the first episodes. I don't know what one.

1190
01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:02,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can actually see what I look like, and

1191
01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:03,840
Speaker 2: I'm terribly sorry.

1192
01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:04,720
Speaker 3: No I'm not.

1193
01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:05,959
Speaker 2: I think I look great.

1194
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:08,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is news to me. I didn't realize there

1195
01:02:08,520 --> 01:02:10,560
Speaker 3: was a Netflix show Behind.

1196
01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:11,040
Speaker 2: The Bastards, Sam.

1197
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:14,200
Speaker 1: We were releasing episodes on YouTube, and we recently got

1198
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:17,840
Speaker 1: licensed by Netflix to put that show on Netflix, which

1199
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:21,360
Speaker 1: is pretty cool and pretty weird to have relatives that

1200
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:24,880
Speaker 1: would normally not listen to my work be like, hey,

1201
01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:28,040
Speaker 1: I saw your face. Even had a doctor be like

1202
01:02:28,080 --> 01:02:30,200
Speaker 1: so your face came up on my Netflix and I

1203
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:34,280
Speaker 1: was like, I gotta go. I'm so sorry.

1204
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:36,520
Speaker 2: I have a very strange life. You have to explain

1205
01:02:36,560 --> 01:02:37,240
Speaker 2: to your sorry.

1206
01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:41,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a weird thing over here, Like, yeah.

1207
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:43,160
Speaker 2: All right, we will talk to you all on Wednesday.

1208
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:50,600
Speaker 3: Ye thanks for having me. Goodbye.

1209
01:02:51,720 --> 01:02:54,160
Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1210
01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:57,320
Speaker 1: pool Zone Media. For more podcasts and cool Zone Media,

1211
01:02:57,480 --> 01:03:00,920
Speaker 1: visit our website Goolezonemedia dot com. Check us out on

1212
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:03,960
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1213
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:05,040
Speaker 1: get your podcasts.