Speaker 1: Everything that happens has a meaning when meaning includes the
Speaker 1: opportunity for evolving. Welcome to the one you feed throughout time.
Speaker 1: Great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have.
Speaker 1: Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what
Speaker 1: you think ring true. And yet for many of us,
Speaker 1: our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 1: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 1: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 1: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 1: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 1: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 1: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 1: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Our
Speaker 1: guest today is David Rico, PhD. He's a psychotherapist, teacher,
Speaker 1: workshop leader, and a writer who works in Santa Barbara
Speaker 1: and San Francisco, California. He combines young i in poetic
Speaker 1: and mythic perspectives in his work with the intention of
Speaker 1: integrating the psychological and the spiritual. His books and workshops
Speaker 1: include attention to Buddhist and Christian spiritual practices. He is
Speaker 1: the author of the classic How to Be an Adult,
Speaker 1: a handbook on psychological and spiritual integration, and his latest
Speaker 1: book is called Five True Things, A Little Guide to
Speaker 1: Embracing Life's Big Challenges. And here is our conversation with
Speaker 1: David Hi. Dave, Welcome to the show, Sarah. Nice to
Speaker 1: be here. It's a pleasure to have you on. Your
Speaker 1: book is called Five True Things, A Little Guide to
Speaker 1: Embracing Life's Big Challenges. And we will talk more about
Speaker 1: that in a moment, but we'll start like we always do,
Speaker 1: with the parable. There's a grandfather who's talking with his
Speaker 1: granddaughter and he says, in life, there are two wolves
Speaker 1: inside of us that are always at battle. One is
Speaker 1: a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery
Speaker 1: and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which
Speaker 1: represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the
Speaker 1: granddaughter stops. She thinks about it for a second, and
Speaker 1: she looks up at her grandfather and she says, well, grandfather,
Speaker 1: which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed.
Speaker 1: So I'd like to start off by asking you what
Speaker 1: that parable means to you in your life and in
Speaker 1: the work that you do well. First of all, I
Speaker 1: relate to it very well, and I do understand what
Speaker 1: you mean. And when he says it depends on which
Speaker 1: one you feed, there I have a question because I
Speaker 1: believe that all through life we from time to time
Speaker 1: feed either one, and that we walk through life with
Speaker 1: the good wolf on one side and the bad wolf
Speaker 1: on the other, and it's never just entirely a life
Speaker 1: of one or the other. Since we all have a
Speaker 1: shadow side, since we all have a doctor Jacqueline mr
Speaker 1: Hyde orientation, then I'm presuming and noticing that, um, we
Speaker 1: feed both of them at one time or another. And
Speaker 1: I would also say this, at the end of his life,
Speaker 1: Hitler's good wolf wolf was still alive, and at the
Speaker 1: end of her life, Mother Teresa's bad wolf was still alive.
Speaker 1: I know that sounds like an unusual comment, but it
Speaker 1: goes with the union sense of all of us having
Speaker 1: a saintly side and a shall we say, demonic side,
Speaker 1: and we would never want to imagine that either one
Speaker 1: of them had totally disappeared, right, And I think that's
Speaker 1: why I love the parable, because it sort of makes
Speaker 1: it sound like, hey, we all have this battle and
Speaker 1: it's kind of a close match, right. It's it's you know,
Speaker 1: like the one you feed is the one that wins,
Speaker 1: but maybe only by a little bit, right. And I
Speaker 1: think it normalizes what you said, that we have both
Speaker 1: these things inside of us. We were never freed of them,
Speaker 1: like you said. And I think that's a perfection. Is
Speaker 1: not a real human option. We might strive for it,
Speaker 1: but it's not a real human option. I certainly agree.
Speaker 1: It's not one of the givens of life. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: let's talk about the givens. You say there's five true things.
Speaker 1: You also refer to them as the five unavoidable givens,
Speaker 1: And let's get into what those are in a minute.
Speaker 1: But first let's talk about what do you mean by
Speaker 1: a given? What does that mean to you? How are
Speaker 1: you using that term a given as an unalterable fact
Speaker 1: of life that all of us have to pay attention
Speaker 1: to and accept. For instance, one of the givens is
Speaker 1: um that at some point we will die. That's just
Speaker 1: a fact about human existence that all of us have
Speaker 1: to accept. Now, we have some leeway as to how
Speaker 1: long we might live, depending on our health, habits, and
Speaker 1: our genetic makeup and any unforeseen accidents that may come along,
Speaker 1: but the given is that, and the variable is how
Speaker 1: and when it happens, right right. The other thing that
Speaker 1: you say about given is you say, you know, first, yes,
Speaker 1: it's a condition that cannot be changed, but you say
Speaker 1: it's also something that has been granted to us. So
Speaker 1: you're using the term given in both an immutable fact
Speaker 1: as well as something that could be looked at as
Speaker 1: something we've been given. I also see the givens of life,
Speaker 1: and I'm referring to five specific ones in this book,
Speaker 1: but I just think that somehow there are also graces
Speaker 1: that have come our way, right right, kind of a
Speaker 1: gift to mention of life. Since these givens, which will
Speaker 1: soon describe, turn on to be the ingredients of a
Speaker 1: life that has meaning, character, depth, compassion. Right, So let's
Speaker 1: talk about what they are the five givens. Okay, first
Speaker 1: of all, there are thousands of givens, but the five
Speaker 1: that I'm working with in the book are One everything
Speaker 1: changes and ends. Two things do not always go according
Speaker 1: to our plans. Three life is not always fair, for
Speaker 1: pain is part of everyone's life. And five people are
Speaker 1: not loyal and loving all the time. So when I
Speaker 1: do quarrel with those, I am being my head against
Speaker 1: the wall because they are the givens of our life
Speaker 1: on this planet. So if I could say yes to these,
Speaker 1: I would be doing a lot to bring more equanimity
Speaker 1: and serenity into my life. The serenity to accept the
Speaker 1: things I cannot change is basically what this is about. Right,
Speaker 1: That's the topic of my book. So many of help
Speaker 1: books around the second part of the prayer, which is
Speaker 1: the courage to change the things that I can change.
Speaker 1: Self help books are about changing. But this book is
Speaker 1: not about changing. It's about accepting what can't be changed,
Speaker 1: while trusting that if it's like this here you're on Earth,
Speaker 1: and if this whole earth is oriented towards more and
Speaker 1: more evolution, towards higher consciousness, then it must be that
Speaker 1: givens like these are not penalties. They are not horrible
Speaker 1: fates that have been thrust upon us. They somehow have
Speaker 1: a gift dimension because each one of them helps us
Speaker 1: be stronger and more realistic. Right you say that we
Speaker 1: behave as if somehow these givens aren't always in effect
Speaker 1: or not applicable to all of us. But when we
Speaker 1: oppose these five basic truths, we resist reality, and life
Speaker 1: then becomes an endless series of disappointments, frustrations and sorrows. Yes,
Speaker 1: that's always see it. Yeah, that's a really great way
Speaker 1: to look at and I think it is so true.
Speaker 1: There is I've often said I think the Serenity Prayer
Speaker 1: is the wisest thing ever written, right, and that the
Speaker 1: trick for most of us is the last part of it,
Speaker 1: the wisdom to actually know. For some things it's very obvious.
Speaker 1: I can't change the weather, I can change my clothes, right,
Speaker 1: And then you get into these really complicated areas, and
Speaker 1: your your book here sort of wades a little bit
Speaker 1: into how you can sort of see more nuance in
Speaker 1: different areas of your life by accepting that these sort
Speaker 1: of things are true. And you know, it just makes
Speaker 1: me think about, makes me think about like I had
Speaker 1: to put a couple of dogs to sleep a couple
Speaker 1: of years ago, within about eight months of each other,
Speaker 1: and I just remember by the fact that I was
Speaker 1: really clear that like, this is just what happens. I
Speaker 1: didn't have a quarrel with the universe over it, right,
Speaker 1: All I had was the sadness, and that was plenty.
Speaker 1: That was plenty, right, but I think it's you know,
Speaker 1: we talked on this show often. In your book goes
Speaker 1: over it a lot too, about how we take these
Speaker 1: things that happen in life that might cause us sorrow
Speaker 1: or sadness or whatever, and then we add all this
Speaker 1: stuff to it, and that quarreling with life is part
Speaker 1: of what we add to it that makes our suffering grow.
Speaker 1: I really agree with that, and that's a very good
Speaker 1: way to put it. In other words, we um create
Speaker 1: our own suffering by our no to what is right.
Speaker 1: When we're insisting that everything go the way we wanted
Speaker 1: to go, we're setting ourselves up for the terrible pain
Speaker 1: of disappointment. And it's certainly okay to wish that things
Speaker 1: were different. I'm thinking of the stanza from famous poem
Speaker 1: the Rubaiyat of omark I am, and I think this
Speaker 1: is in book, But anyway, it goes like this, Love,
Speaker 1: if you and I could but conspire to change this
Speaker 1: sorry scheme of things entire, would we not shatter it
Speaker 1: to bits and mold it nearer to the heart's desire.
Speaker 1: So if I had my chance, I would change these givens.
Speaker 1: I would say things can remain the same for as
Speaker 1: long as I want them to, rather than everything changes
Speaker 1: in ends beyond my control. And it's okay to have
Speaker 1: that wish, to like while away a quiet afternoon, but
Speaker 1: to live as if that were possible, or to demand
Speaker 1: it gets us into big trouble because we're not sitting
Speaker 1: in the saddle and the dire action the horses going.
Speaker 1: I love, I love that phrase of yours. You say,
Speaker 1: saying yes to reality, to the things we cannot change,
Speaker 1: is like choosing to turn around and sit in the
Speaker 1: saddle in the direction the horses going. And I think
Speaker 1: that is such a great phrase that really sums this up.
Speaker 1: And as you were reading that poem there, it made
Speaker 1: me think of something somebody a friend of mine just
Speaker 1: sent me was right before the show, an email. It
Speaker 1: said that they had heard of in the High Faith
Speaker 1: that one of the definitions of God is the one
Speaker 1: who turns things up. I thought that was so great
Speaker 1: because it sort of speaks to this, And what it
Speaker 1: speaks to is the next line of yours that I
Speaker 1: want to read here. You say that I found that
Speaker 1: anything that crosses swords with are entitled ego is a
Speaker 1: powerful source of transformation and inner evolution. Yeah, because the
Speaker 1: ego is the part of us egos the Latin word
Speaker 1: for I egos, the part of us that's shall we say,
Speaker 1: I centered, And we live in a world that's a
Speaker 1: continually evolving web of life. It's not every man for himself,
Speaker 1: it's we're all in this together, and we're linked. And
Speaker 1: in Buddhism there's the realization that there is no separate self,
Speaker 1: that all of us are connected, and when the ego
Speaker 1: steps in, it tries to control the givens. In fact,
Speaker 1: I would say the opposite of yes in our context
Speaker 1: here is not know. The opposite of yes is I
Speaker 1: can control this. For instance, let's say we're looking at
Speaker 1: the given that people are not loving or loyal all
Speaker 1: the time, but yet in our relationship with someone special,
Speaker 1: we demand that he or she be loving and loyal
Speaker 1: all the time, since that's what we believe we're entitled to,
Speaker 1: and that entitlement is one of the characteristics of this
Speaker 1: inflated ego that we've been talking about. So when you
Speaker 1: demand that from someone, first of all, you're demanding something
Speaker 1: that's not humanly possible. Secondly, it's contraries to that given
Speaker 1: that all of us are loving at times, but at
Speaker 1: moments we might be unloving and we're all loyal and
Speaker 1: we're in some ways we're loyal all the time, but
Speaker 1: in other ways we're not as loyal as someone would
Speaker 1: like us to be. So if I can be okay
Speaker 1: with the ever moving pageant of human behavior, I'm going
Speaker 1: to have a much happier relationship and one that doesn't
Speaker 1: put so many unrealistic demands on my partner. So this
Speaker 1: is how accepting these givens to love more because love
Speaker 1: is accepting someone just as he or she is, and
Speaker 1: everyone comes in with these same five givens. Everyone occasionally
Speaker 1: makes plans with us that could fall through because she's
Speaker 1: often late or he sometimes forgets. But when you start
Speaker 1: off with well, anything can happen here because the human
Speaker 1: elements is always at work, you're gonna have a much
Speaker 1: happier time. Yeah, I think that, you know, particularly that
Speaker 1: people will not always be loving all the time is
Speaker 1: such a big one. Like my girlfriend to tell you
Speaker 1: right now, I was not as loving as I as
Speaker 1: I could have been last night. You know, I got
Speaker 1: kind of grumpy about things. I mean, I didn't I
Speaker 1: wasn't mean or anything. I just was kind of like
Speaker 1: in my own kind of space and learning that about
Speaker 1: other people is really helpful because I know when I
Speaker 1: was younger, you know, I would read every little sign
Speaker 1: like that is that it had some meaning, right, And
Speaker 1: it doesn't in most cases, right, it doesn't. It's it's
Speaker 1: the way people oscillate, you know. And knowing that is
Speaker 1: a is a real freedom. And I love that line.
Speaker 1: The opposite of yes is not know, it is control.
Speaker 1: And and you go on to say, I think this
Speaker 1: is really important too. We do not let go of control.
Speaker 1: We let go of the belief that we have control. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you want to remain in control of the car, and
Speaker 1: you have to let go of the belief that you're
Speaker 1: in control of everything. Right. That reminds me of something
Speaker 1: you say that all the givens of life are based
Speaker 1: on one underlying fact. Anything can happen to anyone. This
Speaker 1: is the given of givens, and that is a sort
Speaker 1: of terrifying possibility at first glance. Mark Mark Neppo, who
Speaker 1: we had on the podcast, calls it the terrible knowledge,
Speaker 1: you know, the terrible knowledge that, like you said, anything
Speaker 1: can happen to any of us anytime. We are completely
Speaker 1: out of control in that regard, as far as these
Speaker 1: forces outside of us. Absolutely, And so you know someone
Speaker 1: who smokes and says, well, maybe smoking doesn't cause cancer,
Speaker 1: but that won't happen to me. That's the opposite of
Speaker 1: anything can happen to anybody. Right And suddenly, the purpose
Speaker 1: then that we would be aiming at, if we're coming
Speaker 1: from a healthy place, is not to get off Scott free,
Speaker 1: to live a charmed life, to make sure most of
Speaker 1: the bad things that happens to some people don't ever
Speaker 1: happen to us. It would be more about how do
Speaker 1: I keep building the inner resources that made me strong
Speaker 1: enough to handle whatever gibbons come my way? Right? And
Speaker 1: I think that that is the heart of it, right
Speaker 1: is I remember thinking this, You know, I was in
Speaker 1: twelve step recovery for a long time and trying to
Speaker 1: sort of you know, when I started, I had this
Speaker 1: really immature idea of what God and spirituality was, and
Speaker 1: it was basically like, if I do really good, no
Speaker 1: bad things will happen to me until some really bad
Speaker 1: things happen to me. And I went, well, okay, that
Speaker 1: is a pretty immature way of viewing the world. And
Speaker 1: where I landed was that it wasn't that bad things
Speaker 1: wouldn't happen to me. It was that I had a
Speaker 1: faith that by applying certain spiritual principles, certain approaches, that
Speaker 1: I would be able to handle whatever life gave me.
Speaker 1: And that's a very different thing, but is also an
Speaker 1: enormously comforting thing when we get to that point, because
Speaker 1: then we are less afraid of everything. M hm. Yes,
Speaker 1: And I think one of the I like what you
Speaker 1: just said, Eric, and I totally agree, of course. And
Speaker 1: I think all another elements of this that has really
Speaker 1: helped me to get to what you just described is
Speaker 1: to become really skilled at grief. Yeah, because every one
Speaker 1: of these five has grief in it. If things are
Speaker 1: going to end and we're going to cry, if things
Speaker 1: don't go according to plan, we're going to be sad,
Speaker 1: If life is not fair, we're going to be greeting that,
Speaker 1: if pain is part of life that's going to hurt
Speaker 1: and bother us, and if certainly, if people are not
Speaker 1: loving and loyal all the time, we're going to be
Speaker 1: grieving because we had expected otherwise. So every one of
Speaker 1: these has grief in it. And since grief is the
Speaker 1: feeling that most of us avoid, like the plague, then
Speaker 1: it's understandable that it would be hard for us to
Speaker 1: say yes unconditionally to the way life is, so the
Speaker 1: part of it that's beyond our control, which is of
Speaker 1: course the biggest part of the pie. So I keep
Speaker 1: reminding myself that the more I can be comfortable with
Speaker 1: the feelings of grief, which our sadness, anger, fear. I'm
Speaker 1: sad that I didn't get my way. I'm angry I
Speaker 1: didn't get my way. I'm afraid I that my not
Speaker 1: getting my way is going to hurt me in some fashion.
Speaker 1: I can keep practicing letting my self have those feelings,
Speaker 1: And there's a direct connection between being okay with grief
Speaker 1: and being able to say yes and let go of
Speaker 1: trying to control things. Because also it's true that one
Speaker 1: of the main reasons we do try to control things
Speaker 1: is because if they don't go our way, we will
Speaker 1: be sad that they didn't go our way. So if
Speaker 1: you really look carefully, you realize that even control itself,
Speaker 1: it's not only based on the fear of not getting
Speaker 1: what we want. It's based on the grief that not
Speaker 1: getting what we want we will be sad. That's the
Speaker 1: lowest common denominator of it, right, and control is you know,
Speaker 1: I sort of think that at the heart of so
Speaker 1: much of this stuff is exactly what you said. It's
Speaker 1: the ability to be with the emotions that life brings
Speaker 1: and not let them be a catastrophe. Right. You know,
Speaker 1: a lot of us we will go to great lengths
Speaker 1: to avoid that, and we have very extreme measures of
Speaker 1: doing it, whether it be alcohol or drugs or gambling.
Speaker 1: We have slightly less extreme, whether it be eating or
Speaker 1: watching a lot of TV. And then we get more
Speaker 1: and more subtle, you know, And that's where we start
Speaker 1: to get into control, and we start to get into
Speaker 1: some of the spiritual stuff like well, you know, I
Speaker 1: just observe we get more and more sophisticated as we grow,
Speaker 1: and we learn more and more sophisticated with ways that
Speaker 1: we can avoid having to deal with the feelings. And
Speaker 1: I think what you said is so important. And this
Speaker 1: is a work in progress for me. I'm sure it
Speaker 1: is for everyone. But the more that I'm able to
Speaker 1: be like, all right, I can feel sad, I can
Speaker 1: sit here and cry and I can be okay with that.
Speaker 1: I don't like it. I'm not gonna seek it out,
Speaker 1: but I can do it. And also realizing that feelings
Speaker 1: have a life cycle. They come, they peak, they crest,
Speaker 1: they go, like the first given, every thing ends, you know.
Speaker 1: And so sometimes it's when we realized that that makes
Speaker 1: such a big change. It was the fundamental thing that
Speaker 1: I realized that allowed me to stop doing Heroin right,
Speaker 1: was that I went, I can have these really awful feelings.
Speaker 1: I can sit here. They'll come and they'll pass and
Speaker 1: I will survive. And it sure is better not to
Speaker 1: do something really destructive when I'm in the midst of them, right,
Speaker 1: And you know, and so I couldn't agree with you more.
Speaker 1: I think that that's so important. It makes me think
Speaker 1: of another guest we had, whose name is David K. Reynolds,
Speaker 1: and he wrote a book called Constructive Living, and in
Speaker 1: it he had a line that really kind of floored me,
Speaker 1: and he said, when we're able to trust in our behavior,
Speaker 1: then we can allow our feelings to really be And
Speaker 1: that speaks so true to me. When I knew that
Speaker 1: having a bad feeling wasn't going to cause me to
Speaker 1: run off and go on some epic binge the behavior,
Speaker 1: I knew I could sort of handle my behavior. I
Speaker 1: was free to allow emotion to run have more space
Speaker 1: my life. Oh, that's a beautiful way to put it.
Speaker 1: I'm impressed with you, know what you're saying. So I
Speaker 1: want to ask you a question in a slightly different direction,
Speaker 1: although it will circle back to the very same place.
Speaker 1: And that's that you're known for writing books, you know,
Speaker 1: the first one called How to be an Adult, How
Speaker 1: to be an Adult in Relationships. Being an adult is
Speaker 1: in the framework that runs through even this book. You
Speaker 1: reference it often. What do you mean by being in
Speaker 1: an adult and why is it good to be one?
Speaker 1: I would say, um, being an adult first of all,
Speaker 1: would be adhering to the prayer that we mentioned before,
Speaker 1: the one used in the twelve step programs. It's written
Speaker 1: by Ryan Hold Neibor of Lutheran Theologian, That we would
Speaker 1: have the serenity to accept the givens of life, the
Speaker 1: things we can't change, and appreciate them as graces that
Speaker 1: are helping us become people of character, your depth, and compassion.
Speaker 1: That we would work on being strong enough to confront
Speaker 1: the issues in our life that require some kind of change,
Speaker 1: like changing behaviors and our personality that are ineffective in
Speaker 1: our relationships, and we can learn to do that, and
Speaker 1: we can keep practicing it and gradually will we will
Speaker 1: make changes. So some things can be changed, and we're
Speaker 1: always wanting to work on those and that's not only
Speaker 1: applicable to ourselves but to the society around us. We
Speaker 1: also want to do what we can to make this
Speaker 1: a better world. And then finally, the wisdoms know the difference,
Speaker 1: which is entirely a grace comes to us from power
Speaker 1: beyond our own ego. We can't really make it happen,
Speaker 1: but we can always ask for it. May I have
Speaker 1: uh wisdom to know the difference between what I can
Speaker 1: change and what I can't change. Ye, So to me
Speaker 1: memorize is what being an adults is about. And then
Speaker 1: I try to apply it to our personal life and
Speaker 1: to our relationships. Yep, that's great. There is something you
Speaker 1: talk about being an adult often, and when I read it,
Speaker 1: I'm like, that's the way I kind of want to be.
Speaker 1: That's the opposite of the kind of magical thinking that
Speaker 1: everything will come out the way I want it, right right? Yep.
Speaker 1: You also say that I'm want to ask you to
Speaker 1: elaborate on this. You say, a spiritually evolved adult seeks
Speaker 1: not an answer but a significance. What do you mean
Speaker 1: by that that instead of looking for solutions and answers
Speaker 1: to everything that bothers us, we would live with the
Speaker 1: questions and notice where they take us. That we would
Speaker 1: um look for a meaning, which is one of our
Speaker 1: essential longings. My other book is called The Fine Longings,
Speaker 1: and one of these longings is meaning. So we're looking
Speaker 1: for what does this signify in my life? In the
Speaker 1: sense that this offers me an opportunity to grow both
Speaker 1: psychologically and spiritually, or another way of putting it is
Speaker 1: everything that happens has a meaning when meaning includes the
Speaker 1: opportunity for evolving. It's not like the New Age approach
Speaker 1: that you know everything had quote. Everything happens for a reason.
Speaker 1: It's not about the magical thinking that somehow the world
Speaker 1: is designing itself so that I I can have exactly
Speaker 1: what I want. Is that the world is shaping up
Speaker 1: the way it is shaping up, and all that matters
Speaker 1: is in every shape it takes. There's some chance that
Speaker 1: I could step up to the plate as a full
Speaker 1: on adult who will say yes to the part of
Speaker 1: it that can't be changed, and yes to the part
Speaker 1: of it that can be changed, and somehow from all
Speaker 1: that I will gradually become more and more adult. You
Speaker 1: said so many great things in there, and the way
Speaker 1: that you defined meaning right in that if we define
Speaker 1: meaning as we are able to find an opportunity for
Speaker 1: growth in this. I almost wanted to applaud um because
Speaker 1: that is so that is so critical, And I also
Speaker 1: agree with you this idea. When I hear like everything
Speaker 1: happens for a reason, I just cringe a little bit because,
Speaker 1: like you said, it always seems strange to me that
Speaker 1: the universe would be out there going all right, well,
Speaker 1: you know what, I'm going to cause Bob to get
Speaker 1: in a car accident and so that Sally has an
Speaker 1: opportunity to grow. Like I'm like, hang on a second.
Speaker 1: Talk about taking the ego to its furthest extent that
Speaker 1: the world is another wish for control. Along with statements
Speaker 1: like I chose my own parents, there were saying we
Speaker 1: even had control before we were conceived. Oh wow, that's
Speaker 1: really interesting. I never thought of it in that light,
Speaker 1: all these New Age superstitions. Bed rock reality is the alternative. Yeah,
Speaker 1: how is what's happening now offering me yet another chance
Speaker 1: to act to loving kindness and hold this with mindfulness.
Speaker 1: Those are the examples of our spiritual practices that get
Speaker 1: a chance, shall we say two be expressed through the
Speaker 1: events that are occurring. Yep, I couldn't agree more. I
Speaker 1: think that is such a such an important point. It
Speaker 1: made me think of something else that you wrote that
Speaker 1: I kind of wanted to talk about, because I think
Speaker 1: we can sort of head into this. And the word
Speaker 1: spiritual is used all the time, we use it. We
Speaker 1: offered a program called spiritual habits, right, it's used everywhere. Right. However,
Speaker 1: what it means is, you know, always kind up for debate.
Speaker 1: You have a definition of it that I love. And
Speaker 1: you say that spirituality is the intersection of three paths,
Speaker 1: letting go of ego, an unconditional yes to the conditions
Speaker 1: of human experience, and an immeasurable compassion. That's just again
Speaker 1: I could applaud that. That is so good. Oh thank you.
Speaker 1: It took me many years to come up with that.
Speaker 1: Well I can see why, because it really does. I mean,
Speaker 1: it just sums up to me like what we're after
Speaker 1: when we're talking about spirituality. Mm hmm. And all three
Speaker 1: of those are challenges, you know, It's not the comforting
Speaker 1: candles and incense and holy pictures. It's hey, can I
Speaker 1: let go my ego in this conflict I'm having at
Speaker 1: work or at home? That's what shows me that spirituality
Speaker 1: has come alive in Then I say yes to the
Speaker 1: givens of life rather than fight them tooth and nail
Speaker 1: and believe I'm entitled to an exemption. Can I feel
Speaker 1: compassion for those who suffer as I do or different
Speaker 1: from the way I do? Can I feel compassion for
Speaker 1: the perpetrator and the victim? When I get to that point,
Speaker 1: that's the flourishing of spirituality. And I have the kind
Speaker 1: of compassion that's not selective. It's not based on who
Speaker 1: seduced me into having pity for him or her. Is
Speaker 1: just for all suffering across the board. Those who endure
Speaker 1: it and those who cause it equally become the subjects
Speaker 1: of my compassion at heart. Right, it reminds me of
Speaker 1: the zen vow all beings one body, I vow to
Speaker 1: save them. Yeah, it doesn't really leave anything out. So
Speaker 1: the other thing I thought of that after we were
Speaker 1: talking about people wanting to control things by magical thinking,
Speaker 1: And that's an insight I'm going to be pondering tonight
Speaker 1: for a while, because I never saw it in that
Speaker 1: lightest control made me think of a phrase, things don't
Speaker 1: happen for the best, but we can make the best
Speaker 1: out of what happens. Oh, yes, that would be a
Speaker 1: great example of the opposite of magical. So magical thinking
Speaker 1: is they will turn out for the best. Now, what
Speaker 1: you're saying is they will turn out the way they
Speaker 1: turn out, and then it will be up to me
Speaker 1: to make the best of the way they turn out exactly,
Speaker 1: and I will have that chance. Yes, yes, And I
Speaker 1: think that is that is it. You know, things don't
Speaker 1: happen for the best. It's a beautiful way. And I
Speaker 1: really like that. Yeah, things don't happen for the best,
Speaker 1: but we can make the best out of what happens.
Speaker 1: And I think that's just a really it's been my
Speaker 1: my experience, you know. And in a similar vein you
Speaker 1: had a line I really like, which is the challenge
Speaker 1: is to find our destiny in exactly what we are
Speaker 1: refusing to engage in. And I think that's a really
Speaker 1: that's a really great way to sum up a lot
Speaker 1: of what we've talked about, which is that by saying
Speaker 1: no or trying to control. We are trying not to
Speaker 1: engage in something, but that when we do. You said,
Speaker 1: we find our destiny by engaging with these things that
Speaker 1: are hardest for us to say yes to. I often
Speaker 1: find that, right. I've gotten really good at saying yes
Speaker 1: to a lot of things, but there are still some
Speaker 1: that are my trigger. When they happen, I'm like, you know,
Speaker 1: I could just feel myself inside no no, no, no,
Speaker 1: like a child. Yeah, we still haven't gotten that reality
Speaker 1: is ruthless. Yes it is. It is. I like that
Speaker 1: phrase you used a few minutes ago, bedrock reality. That
Speaker 1: life is not going to let us get away with anything.
Speaker 1: And the reason it's doing this is not because it's
Speaker 1: a harsh task master or because we deserve punishment. And
Speaker 1: by the way, that's all when to come back to
Speaker 1: that in the moment, it's because that's the way it is.
Speaker 1: And when I say yes to the way it is,
Speaker 1: I noticed myself expanding, growing, evolving, Yes, And I wanted
Speaker 1: to throw in that regarding this idea of suffering, that
Speaker 1: another way of being realistic is getting it that happiness
Speaker 1: is not a reward and suffering is not a punishment.
Speaker 1: So we no longer think I must have done something
Speaker 1: wrong and that's why I have this illness, or that's
Speaker 1: why these terrible things are happening to me. It isn't
Speaker 1: set up that way. It isn't as if there's someone
Speaker 1: who's making sure that you get yours right either direction,
Speaker 1: negatively or positively. It's it's the way it is. It's
Speaker 1: the way the chips have fallen, and how do I
Speaker 1: make the best of the way they fell to? You know,
Speaker 1: echo what you just said. I think that's an enormously adult,
Speaker 1: that is mature, realistic way of looking at the things
Speaker 1: that happens to us. I couldn't agree more. And I
Speaker 1: was going to circle back to that because you in
Speaker 1: the book, you use it in the context of the
Speaker 1: first noble truth of Buddhism, which has often translated as
Speaker 1: life is suffering or life is unsatisfactory. And that's when
Speaker 1: you use that that line where you say, another way
Speaker 1: of stating this truth or given is that pain is
Speaker 1: not a punishment and happiness is not a reward. They
Speaker 1: are simply features of any existence. And that is so true,
Speaker 1: and I love that. It's a great way to think
Speaker 1: about that first noble truth. M hm, Yes, I agree.
Speaker 1: All this makes me think of you know that Buddhism
Speaker 1: talks about the three marks of existence, right, you know,
Speaker 1: I think things are impermanent. There's actually no no self,
Speaker 1: and there's unsatisfactory nous built into life. And we had
Speaker 1: a teacher on Ruth King and she has this phrase
Speaker 1: that I've used over and over I've talked to my
Speaker 1: coaching clients everything, which is that life isn't permanent, personal
Speaker 1: or perfect, and that you know, really covers so much
Speaker 1: of what we're talking about here, you know, and it's
Speaker 1: just a very little it's a very good catch phrase
Speaker 1: that I can sort of when I'm suffering, I can
Speaker 1: ask myself, am I expecting life something to be permanent?
Speaker 1: Am I taking this personally? Am I expecting that things
Speaker 1: are going to be perfect? And if I am, then
Speaker 1: I'm arguing against the three marks of existence or the
Speaker 1: givens of life. There's lots of different ways to say
Speaker 1: what you're saying. Or I'm arguing against things that can't
Speaker 1: be changed. The stubborn facts, that's another good one. The
Speaker 1: stubborn that they are very stubborn facts. Yes, as in immovable.
Speaker 1: And since everything is here toward evolving, it it has
Speaker 1: to be that such givens as we face, must also
Speaker 1: have an evolutionary impulse in them that is moving us
Speaker 1: along in the direction of more consciousness and more connection,
Speaker 1: the two purposes of evolution. So so that's another reason
Speaker 1: to trust. Our yes is based on a trust that
Speaker 1: if it's like this, it must be right, not right morally,
Speaker 1: but right on or fitting appropriate. When I align myself
Speaker 1: to these givens, the five that I mentioned in the book,
Speaker 1: or any of the thousands that we encounter in the
Speaker 1: course of our life. When I do that, I'm joining
Speaker 1: in with the forces that helped me evolve. And that's
Speaker 1: a wonderful reward. It is that comes. Yes, it is,
Speaker 1: and I think that is a beautiful place to wrap up,
Speaker 1: because you and I are out of time and I
Speaker 1: don't think we could end it any better than that. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you, yeah, thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 1: I've really enjoyed the conversation and it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 1: Thanks a lot, Eric, and good luck in your work.
Speaker 1: You're doing really important stuff. Thank you. Thank you. If
Speaker 1: what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider
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