WEBVTT - Bill Coore on Pete Dye, Sheep Ranch, and Under-Appreciated Holes 0:00:00.800 --> 0:00:04.200 Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. 0:00:04.559 --> 0:00:07.560 Today's episode is brought to you by our friends at 0:00:07.560 --> 0:00:11.440 b Draddy. It's cold in the Midwest and there's nothing 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:14.920 better for me than staying warm with the Russell quarter Zip. 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:17.800 This piece is like your favorite hoodie. 0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:20.720 You can make it dressed up as much as you want, 0:00:20.840 --> 0:00:23.000 like you could do business casual with it. You could 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:25.000 wear it on the golf course, stay warm on a 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:28.440 chilly morning or you know, brisk day, or you can 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:32.000 just lounge on the on the couch watching you know, 0:00:32.280 --> 0:00:36.680 golf on Sunday afternoon, like your favorite hoodie. So you 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:39.240 can get the Russell quarter Zip in our pro shop 0:00:39.320 --> 0:00:42.880 at the fridagg dot com or from b Draddy directly 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:49.840 at www dot bdradty dot com. All right, today's episode 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:55.720 is with legendary golf course designer Bill Korer. So Bill 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:58.840 and I talked in Scottsdale. We talked about a number 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:03.320 of topics, including his work at the Sheep Ranch, a 0:01:03.320 --> 0:01:07.440 little bit about Pete Die and much more so. Without 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:11.760 further ado, here is Bill cor I miss the green. 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:14.200 For example, I'm already upset when I find my ball 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:14.720 in the bunker. 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:16.640 I'm really upset and when I find my. 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:19.680 Ball in a brid egg, Friday egg, the dreaded Frida egg, 0:01:19.800 --> 0:01:22.440 fridagridagg bride egg. 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:24.160 Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the. 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:39.440 So if you, if you, uh, if you could go 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:43.440 and say, like a race time, there's this movie yesterday, 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:44.440 the Beatles movie. 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:45.800 I don't know if you've seen. 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:49.160 Yeah, you know, so like how they forget about the Beatles, right, 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:52.040 and then society just like nobody has any clue. 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:54.440 And we're talking golf here. 0:01:55.200 --> 0:01:58.360 If you could, if society could wake up one day 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:03.040 and have no clue this existed, one of these things? 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:08.959 Would it be the rangefinder, like the yardage gun, the 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:12.400 the big headed drivers, or the lobledge? Which one would 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:13.000 you get rid of? 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:16.119 Oh? 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:20.240 Gee, I thought you were going to ask something about 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:20.919 golf course. 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:23.640 Which one of those three? 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:28.200 And this is from a design pre well, I. 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:29.040 Think the rangefinder. 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:34.120 I think I would probably eliminate that because at least 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:38.520 I am now. I am now such a dinosaur and 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:45.640 old enough that I remember easily before rangefinders, and I 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:48.400 thought it was a fascinating part of golf, trying to 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:54.640 make distance judgments by sight and often by feel. And yes, 0:02:55.000 --> 0:03:00.000 I actually remember when we played golf even without yardage books. 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:02.639 I guess, you know, Dean Beaman I think was the 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:07.160 first or one of no built. You know, Phil Rogers 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:11.440 I think was the first professional who did the yardage books, 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:14.760 and Jack Nicholas got that from him, and I think 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:17.839 maybe Dean Beaman was doing it at the same time, 0:03:17.919 --> 0:03:20.480 Nicholas of course being the one who's the most well 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:23.360 known for doing it when they made their own yardage books. 0:03:23.400 --> 0:03:28.080 But I even remember prior to that it was judging 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:32.680 distances was really an integral part of golf. 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:33.800 Yeah. 0:03:33.919 --> 0:03:38.720 And then also the deception of bunkers and stuff that 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:40.520 it has been lost a little bit, where you can 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:42.600 just shoot the top edge of a bunker. 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:43.760 Well without question. 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:47.080 I mean Ben and I and the guys that we 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:49.320 work with, and lots of other folks who are in 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:56.000 this profession too, still are very enamored of the bunkers 0:03:56.040 --> 0:04:00.320 that are set short of the green surfaces but appear 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:03.200 to be right at the green surfaces. Generally, if you 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:05.880 can get the top line of a bunker, even if 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:08.720 it's thirty forty yards short of the green, if you 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:11.960 can get the top line of the bunker to match 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:16.200 the same visual line of sight into the front edge 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:19.479 of the green, that bunker will appear to be right 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:23.480 at the front of the green. And as you say, 0:04:23.800 --> 0:04:27.080 in days gone by, when you use visual judgment, that 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:30.560 foreshortened everything. It made the green look closer than it 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:34.400 really was because you didn't see that ground that was 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:37.600 between the bunker and the putting surface, and your mind 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:42.680 would automatically tell you it's not you know, it's one 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:45.200 hundred and seventy five yards. It might look like it's 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:47.599 a one hundred and fifty, one hundred and forty five 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:50.920 something like that. So even if you knew the ground 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:55.000 was there, your mind was telling you something different. Now today, 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:59.640 with the accuracy and the detail of the yardage finders, 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:04.680 the rain finders, I think we can all overcome what 0:05:04.760 --> 0:05:10.120 our what our site impressions are just because we know 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:13.680 the mathematics behind the numbers and Okay, it may look 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:15.960 like one fifty, but I know it's one seventy five. 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:22.839 So with that is using the horizon lines to match 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:28.360 for that deception. In terms of deception, how are there 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:31.920 other ways that you can deceive players with visual tricks, 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:36.919 whether it be with features or different You know, do 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:39.560 you have different tricks where you can maybe appear make 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:42.880 bunkers appear to look further away or closer than they are. 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:50.799 Well they obviously scale is one of them. Anything that's 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:52.800 the bigger it is, the closer it's going to look 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:58.480 to you. But angles, you can use angles that that 0:05:58.760 --> 0:06:02.480 seem to set ups certain ways you want to play. Uh, 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:05.560 we're we're still pretty much fond of the types that 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:06.200 help you. 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:08.960 In other words, if if if. 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:11.800 The ideal shot going into the green is right to left, 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:14.320 if you can set the bunkering in such a way 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:18.720 that it visually that it seems appealing to play or 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:24.039 right to left shot, that's that's a that's a type 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:28.160 of bunkering I guess you might say is positive and 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:31.520 is is reinforcing. Now you can do it the other 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:35.200 way and set up bunkering with angles that make it 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:37.200 appear you want to hit a shot a certain way 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:40.000 when in fact you want to hit the exact opposite 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:40.880 shape of shot. 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:45.880 That's uh, I think, yeah, deception is interesting. And then 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:50.000 you know, with with those visual those angles, it's oh, 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:52.320 this shot calls for right to left, like you can 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:55.479 just see it in there with those the way, it's 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:59.960 a good point about those. So what you got to 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:01.919 lot of new projects? What have you been working on 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:03.960 since since we last talked. 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:08.000 Well, it's been a long time, Andy, since we talked. 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:08.719 I gush. 0:07:08.839 --> 0:07:12.360 I think last time we talked it was at San Valley. 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:13.920 So it was colder. 0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:17.600 Oh. I was so grateful to you that day. 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:21.640 I was freezing out there, absolutely freezing, and when you 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:25.040 offered the chance to come inside and sit and talk 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:28.520 to you, I remember you said something like, well, Bill, 0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:30.040 it won't take very much of your time. 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:34.440 And I've made some response. I recall like, Andy. 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:37.160 I'll stand here as long as you want, as long 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:39.640 as we stay in this warm room, and somebody will 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:41.120 bring me some hot chocolate. 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:43.400 So we sat there quite a while. 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:44.160 Yeah. 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:47.400 Yeah, And I've gotten a lot better at producing audio, 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:49.320 so that's good for the listeners. 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:52.880 So I guess your big. 0:07:52.720 --> 0:07:57.800 Big opening this year is a sheep ranch, and I 0:07:57.840 --> 0:08:00.640 guess to kick things off the you know what everybody's 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:03.360 going to be talking about is the decision not to 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:06.960 have the traditional sand bunkers, so she branch abandoned dunes. 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:09.560 What went into that decision. 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:15.880 When win Primarily as you would walk on the site 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:20.880 and it it like the Old McDonald's site at Bandon 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:26.640 Or very likely the most exposed to the wind and 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:31.360 sheep Branch, possibly even more so than Old McDonald's. So 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:35.960 as we would walk the site and study it, thinking 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:39.760 about routing of holes and how golf could be played 0:08:39.800 --> 0:08:45.640 out there and the emphstis being on played, not just photographed, 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:48.480 we just realized that wind was going to be such 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:54.320 a factor that we thought, well, okay, bunkers would be 0:08:54.440 --> 0:09:00.520 extraordinarily beautiful. They could be off the chart spectactuor branch. 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:04.400 But it's not a sandy site. Andy, it's you know, 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:07.160 it doesn't have dunes like some of the other courses Abandon. 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:11.880 It's basically a red shot clay type on cliffs and 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:19.280 spectacular landforms and setting for golf, but not a sandy site. 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:23.840 And if we put if we created artificial formal type bunkers, 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:26.840 we just felt like the maintenance of those was gonna 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:30.360 be a nightmare with the wind constantly whipping the sand out, 0:09:30.440 --> 0:09:32.920 trying to water the bunkers to keep the sand in. 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:36.560 And the more we thought about this and we thought, 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:42.160 you know, Ben and I talked some but we've remembered 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:45.880 an old photograph that was in Robert Hunter's book The Lynx, 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:49.079 and it was an old black and white photograph and 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:54.400 it had a caption underneath something to the effect of, 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:57.880 one day there'll be a site with undulations good enough 0:09:58.760 --> 0:10:07.000 that bunkers will be unnecessary. And we just thought about, 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:10.560 if we're ever going to do a golf course with 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:14.720 no formal sand bunkers, maybe this is the place. The 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:19.160 contours are good enough at the Sheep Ranch, the natural ones, 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:21.960 the ones that had been manipulated through the years with 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:26.920 you know, by by equipment and men. But you put 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:29.760 all those contours together, they were so good for golf 0:10:30.200 --> 0:10:33.560 and they're just their basic presentation. We thought, this is 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:36.720 probably the site that we will just allow the contours 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:40.640 that exist and the ones that we will create to 0:10:40.679 --> 0:10:43.719 determine the golf without any formal bunkers. 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:47.439 So great contours, and then you also get that that 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:50.840 wind that you're round about, which you know that added 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:53.760 external factor that you probably are going to challenge players 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:55.040 enough with those two, right. 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:57.000 I think so Andy. I think we just felt like 0:10:57.040 --> 0:11:00.360 the wind in the and the fantastic contours would take 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:03.720 care of all the interests for golf and and any 0:11:04.480 --> 0:11:08.200 you know, type of defenses. The course needed, because those 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:11.720 those would be there through the contring on the ground 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:17.320 and through the wind. Now that doesn't mean people say, oh, 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:21.440 you're not you have no bunkers at all, Andy, There's 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:25.280 some we create, some scolloped out areas and some hollows 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:30.280 and things, and that probably will appear to be a 0:11:30.400 --> 0:11:34.960 bunkers that had been abandoned, you know, for twenty or 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:39.360 thirty or forty or fifty years, just because of the 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:43.200 their shapes and landforms and the fact that they collect balls. 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:48.760 But quite frankly, we decided where we will we will 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:51.440 do these, and we will make them. 0:11:51.240 --> 0:12:00.480 More like just wispy fescue type areas, abandoned bunker type 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:03.360 things with some scrapes of sand in them, but just 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:05.320 would not be any formal bunkers. 0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:08.760 How do you think those areas will play differently for 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:11.679 players than a traditional bunker. 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:16.680 Well, I think for the you know, for the average 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:19.319 to hire handicap or they're certainly going to be easier 0:12:19.920 --> 0:12:21.040 because you. 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:23.240 Know, we all know how those of us are. 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:27.240 Our handicaps are up there, so to speak, more often 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:31.679 not struggling bunkers, and particularly in bunkers that are severely 0:12:32.600 --> 0:12:37.760 impacted by wind as well. And I think in this case, 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:41.560 people will you know, they'll see their ball lying there, 0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:45.679 maybe in the taller, wispy fescue, but generally that abandon 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:48.959 that's very thin. So I think they're just going to 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:51.560 feel more comfortable. There's my ball, I can hit it. 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:54.200 I'm going to go I've got a chance at this. 0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:58.400 And yet perhaps for the very best players that play, 0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:00.800 they're going to find them. So since some of these 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:05.479 scolloped that areas or what might have been old bunkers 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:09.920 from at least from a perception standpoint, but they might 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:13.120 prefer to actually be in sand where they could play 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:17.720 their type of sand shot and spin the ball enough 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:18.840 to get close to the hole. 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:24.200 Yeah, for the really best players, sand is a very 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:25.520 predictable place to be. 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:34.120 It's interesting, Andy, I remember I learned something so interesting. 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:39.560 We were working at Chennecak Hills in Mike Davis and 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:45.080 you know, the executive director of the USGA, and I 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:51.240 remember we were out there walking and we were talking 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:56.080 about potential situations where a hole, say it like number 0:13:56.120 --> 0:14:03.360 fifteen or even number thirteen, could be set up in 0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:06.680 such a way that the players could drive. The players 0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:09.920 in the US Open could drive the ball to the 0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:17.800 green under certain circumstances. And I remember thinking, like the 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:23.440 fifteenth hold, just surrounded by bunkers, and I remember talking 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:23.960 to Mike. 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:27.000 Mike, why would anybody ever try to do this? You know, 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:28.320 to do this? 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:31.880 They almost cannot get a ball on this green, you know, 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:35.160 from the tee, because it's surrounded by bunkers. And I 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:39.200 remember Mike Stentners and Bill probably what they would like 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:41.920 more than anything is to be in one of these 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:46.080 bunkers right here, to have a perfect lie in the bunker. 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:49.200 For these players of that skill level, it's such a 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:53.880 predictable shot that they would much rather be there than 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:57.200 offen the rough someplace, or perhaps even in the fairway 0:14:57.360 --> 0:14:59.960 with a more with an awkward angle or lie. 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:04.760 Yeah, you know, there's because that sand, if you hit 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:06.800 it a little fat, it runs a little bit more. 0:15:06.920 --> 0:15:09.440 If you hit a little thin, it grabs a little 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:09.880 bit more. 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:11.080 And and there's. 0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:13.760 Just such a you know, for that high level player. 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:16.200 You look at some of the percentages these guys get 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:18.040 up and down from the sand over the course of 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:20.320 the season, and you're like, they get up and down 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:23.440 that often. It's really unbelievable. 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:25.240 It is. It's amazing. 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:29.440 And the consistency now for the tournament courses, the consistency 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:33.280 of the bunkers and the conditioning of the bunkers. 0:15:34.280 --> 0:15:34.720 Is so. 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:45.880 Perfect, and it's so again consistent that the players are, 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:49.480 you know, it's it's certainly the bunkers are not the 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:55.920 hazards they were when when being introduced into golf all 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:56.800 those years ago. 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:04.120 So with with the routing there at the Sheep Ranch, 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:07.680 it's a smaller site, I believe, right, you know, it 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:11.120 is eight bridge. You had to be very clever and 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:13.720 like what you said, you know, taking advantage for the golf. 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:16.320 How did you guys kind of come up with that? 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:20.120 And did you find it more difficult with there being 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:21.720 golf holes out there already? 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:23.760 Did you have to almost unsee golf. 0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:26.560 Holes without question? Andy? 0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:29.920 I mean because Tom Doak and Jim or being a 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:36.040 had had built greens out there. There were a very 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:40.280 few I guess you would say tea placements, but they 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:44.720 had built let's see, I think it was thirteen I 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:48.880 believe greens out there that they could be played from 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:54.360 different angles and sort of the cross country type golf 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:59.480 that Sheep Ranch had been through its existence. And I 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:02.080 just remember the first times going out there when there 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:07.119 were still flagsticks in those greens and looking at it, 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:09.359 and it's hard not to be your eye to be 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:14.000 drawn to those. And it actually became a lot easier 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:17.040 when we just ask them to take the flag sticks 0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:20.280 out and you'd walk out because you know, the greens. 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:23.919 It wasn't of course, it was highly maintained, so it 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:27.720 wasn't like the greens just stood out like beacons, you know, 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:33.520 themselves in the rest of the type of vegetation and 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:38.280 landforms and colorization of the vegetation. So once the flag 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:42.000 sticks were going a little easier to start to visualize 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:47.760 that site as more natural type contours or contours highly 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:52.920 conducing to golf without being predisposed to think we need 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:55.040 to play there, we need to play there, or we 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:55.960 need to play there. 0:17:57.560 --> 0:18:02.000 In terms of the small site, what type of challenges 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:06.119 did it present? And you know, what were the solutions 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:08.200 that you guys kind of figured out that you hacked 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:11.159 around with that you know, maybe some things that you 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:13.679 struggled through before finding a solution. 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:17.720 Well, I think the biggest solution was getting eighteen holes 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:21.760 on it. I mean the biggest challenge not solution, but 0:18:21.960 --> 0:18:27.840 the it that and the fact that Phil Friedman and 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:32.360 Mike Kincher and the owners of the Sheep Ranch, they 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:36.200 would very good naturedly, but at the same time and 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:41.119 you seriously remind us regularly that had some of the 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:46.040 most spectacular coastline of all the resort at Bandon, and 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:50.120 how could we use every linear foot of it and 0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:54.040 in some way in the golf and need to say, 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:58.640 that was a bit of a challenge, but so that 0:18:58.760 --> 0:19:02.760 was that that's where we started. We started saying, Okay, yes, 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:06.560 it's a small site, how do we best utilize the 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:14.080 coastline here and with holes that play certainly alongside it. 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:17.919 But if you did that repetitively, you weren't going to 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:21.160 get very many holes on the ocean. So we tried 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:24.480 to come up with a routing that you could literally 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:28.680 play from promontories over the ocean to fair ways other 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:32.560 holes more or less alongside the ocean, but then holes 0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:35.639 that went to greens right on the ocean, and then 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:38.159 the holes that played from tees right on the ocean 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:41.520 more inland. So trying to utilize it in different in 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:46.760 different ways and make that certainly the ocean holes the 0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:49.679 foundation of the golf course. But then how do you 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:53.640 work in from there and fit the puzzle pieces together. 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:58.320 I think the big there was certainly a lot of 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:03.800 concern about the fact that the holes, because the size 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:06.159 of the site, the holes were going to have to 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:11.640 be in reasonably close proximity to one another. And then 0:20:11.760 --> 0:20:18.560 given the wind the influence that you know, we certainly 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:21.679 had some concerns about balls that might travel from one 0:20:21.760 --> 0:20:26.960 golf hole to another. And I think and time will 0:20:27.000 --> 0:20:28.600 only tell how well this worked. 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:32.760 But our solution to that was to. 0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:40.160 Try, in several instances cluster teeing grounds together. For example, 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:43.880 the second and the eighteenth tees are right together. They 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:47.680 play at different angles in different directions, but the teeing 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:51.240 grounds themselves are very close together. That's the case on 0:20:51.320 --> 0:20:55.159 to an eighteen's case on five and fifteen, it's the 0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:58.560 case on eight and ten. By doing that, getting the 0:20:58.640 --> 0:21:03.159 team getting two teen grounds in a small area, and 0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:09.080 then playing at angles that radiated away at different angles 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:12.159 from those teeen grounds, it enables us to make the 0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:15.760 fairways wider. So like a piece of pie, I guess, 0:21:15.840 --> 0:21:18.359 or a piece of pizza, if you play from the 0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:21.719 tip out to the wide part, you can put two 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:26.399 tips together and the pizza edge is much wider and 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:29.520 the pieces of the pizza are much wider when you 0:21:29.560 --> 0:21:33.439 get away from the tip. So that was in essence 0:21:33.520 --> 0:21:36.640 what we did. We clustered some teeing grounds in order 0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:39.600 to make the fairways, the areas where you were going 0:21:39.640 --> 0:21:42.840 to actually be hitting a golf ball and playing golf wider, 0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:45.880 and that gave us, that seemed to give us more 0:21:46.000 --> 0:21:51.800 room to work to get the eighteen hole routing in there. 0:21:51.480 --> 0:21:54.920 You're you're also working on Terry D's second course, which 0:21:55.400 --> 0:22:00.480 is ocean front. When you're when you're working on a 0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:06.640 big body of water and you're routing, oftentimes you see 0:22:06.680 --> 0:22:09.600 with water, the ground a little bit back of the 0:22:09.600 --> 0:22:12.240 water is the best ground for golf because of just 0:22:12.280 --> 0:22:16.800 the way the you know, the ecological the way ground settles, 0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:18.760 you know, where it used to be wider or bigger. 0:22:19.240 --> 0:22:21.479 How big of a challenge is it to not just 0:22:21.680 --> 0:22:25.400 you know, to figure out the best way to use 0:22:25.440 --> 0:22:28.840 the water front, but also you know, have those holes 0:22:29.640 --> 0:22:33.399 inland really you know, I guess more so is it 0:22:33.440 --> 0:22:36.399 frustrating sometimes where you might think like some of the 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:39.160 best holes are the least talked about because they aren't 0:22:39.160 --> 0:22:39.719 on the ocean. 0:22:41.160 --> 0:22:44.360 Oh, I think so, Andy. I mean, I can tell 0:22:44.400 --> 0:22:47.560 you a prime example of that that we're just now 0:22:48.240 --> 0:22:52.760 beginning to work with is with the Cabot Links folks 0:22:52.800 --> 0:22:55.600 with their new project down in Saint Lucia on the. 0:22:55.920 --> 0:22:57.960 Super spectacular site. 0:22:57.960 --> 0:23:01.679 Oh my gosh, it mest be the visually spectacular of 0:23:01.720 --> 0:23:04.560 any site we've we've worked with us. It's saying quite 0:23:04.600 --> 0:23:10.120 a lot, actually, and uh, but the holes right on 0:23:10.160 --> 0:23:12.440 the cliffs on the ocean, and we're able to, like 0:23:12.520 --> 0:23:15.160 at the sheep wrench, to work right to the edge. 0:23:15.760 --> 0:23:17.560 So the holes that are right on the edge of 0:23:17.560 --> 0:23:20.639 the ocean at cab at Saint Lucia will be the 0:23:20.680 --> 0:23:23.720 ones that will without question be the most talked about 0:23:23.840 --> 0:23:28.560 because they are so visually stunning and dramatic. But the 0:23:28.600 --> 0:23:32.200 holes that are actually a bit more inland, on some 0:23:32.480 --> 0:23:36.000 on ground that's very very interesting for golf, even though 0:23:36.040 --> 0:23:40.919 it's not on the ocean. I think they're going to 0:23:42.080 --> 0:23:44.160 I think they're going to hold their own in terms 0:23:44.240 --> 0:23:47.600 of golf interest. Dave Axlan, who's worked with us for 0:23:47.680 --> 0:23:50.520 so many years now, so many places, and he and 0:23:50.560 --> 0:23:53.760 I were just there and I remember that after I'd 0:23:53.800 --> 0:23:57.680 walked Dave through the eighteen old routing twice. I remember 0:23:57.760 --> 0:24:00.680 he looked at me there a few days ago, just said, Bill, 0:24:00.960 --> 0:24:03.199 and everybody's going to talk about the ocean holes. But 0:24:03.320 --> 0:24:05.240 he said, I'm not so sure we're the best holes, 0:24:05.320 --> 0:24:05.960 aren't the inland. 0:24:06.720 --> 0:24:06.920 Yeah. 0:24:07.000 --> 0:24:09.960 It's funny I find myself when I think about like 0:24:10.640 --> 0:24:13.840 my most like my favorite golf holes. Like you know, 0:24:13.880 --> 0:24:17.800 obviously ocean holes or if they're on the lake, are stunning, 0:24:17.840 --> 0:24:21.840 but then you think about that contour that comes you know, 0:24:21.960 --> 0:24:26.760 the contour of a hole is in the in the slopes, 0:24:26.840 --> 0:24:28.840 Like the eighth hole at Prairie Dunes is one that 0:24:28.920 --> 0:24:31.399 always just jumps to the top of my mind, and 0:24:31.440 --> 0:24:34.480 it's like, if you put that hole on a course 0:24:34.520 --> 0:24:35.800 with an ocean, nobody would. 0:24:35.640 --> 0:24:37.000 Ever take pictures of that hole. 0:24:37.040 --> 0:24:41.119