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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie, and you're listening to stuff I've

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Speaker 1: never told you. Today, I'm joined by someone whose voice

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Speaker 1: you might recognize, the one Tracy V. Wilson, co host

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Speaker 1: of the podcast Stuff You Missed in History Class. Thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for joining us. Tracy, thank you for

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Speaker 1: having me. I'm excited to be here. I'm so excited

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Speaker 1: to have you. And today we're talking about something we

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Speaker 1: both really enjoy. Tabletop gaming. That's true, it's gonna be

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Speaker 1: really fun and peek behind the scenes. I used to

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Speaker 1: produce and edit a show that Tracy and Holly hosted

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Speaker 1: previously called pop Stuff. Yes, were you? Were you our

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Speaker 1: producer when we did the episode that we did about

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Speaker 1: tabletop games way back then? I was. I was, so,

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Speaker 1: we're like coming full sir. Cool. Yeah, we had some

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Speaker 1: some shifts and who did what and I couldn't remember

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Speaker 1: exactly where that fell in the timeline. Yeah, yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: pretty sure as the producer of the entire time of

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Speaker 1: that show. It was really fun to work on too.

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Speaker 1: It was it was a fun deal. It was. Today,

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Speaker 1: as I mentioned, we are talking about tabletop gaming, and

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Speaker 1: I think it would probably be a good thing to

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Speaker 1: start with a definition. Um when we say tabletop games,

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Speaker 1: what do we mean? What does that encompass? I think

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Speaker 1: it encompasses everything that's meant to be played around a table,

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Speaker 1: So it goes from card games to role playing games,

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Speaker 1: to board games, to anything that you would get in

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Speaker 1: a group and play around a table. I also know

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Speaker 1: that some people have kind of a more exclusive definition

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Speaker 1: than that, and they only want to include the ones

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Speaker 1: that they think are real games. That sounds very similar

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Speaker 1: to like the whole video game debate of like the

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Speaker 1: real exactly. Yeah, it has. Sometimes you will talk to

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Speaker 1: folks that they don't want to think that Clue is

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Speaker 1: a tabletop game because you can just buy that at

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Speaker 1: the regular toy store, and I think that's a silly argument.

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Speaker 1: I agree that is very silly. We are a big

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Speaker 1: tabletop game playing office here. Um we have a tabletop

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Speaker 1: gaming night once a month at work and a group

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Speaker 1: of us in office. As you've heard me mentioned before

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Speaker 1: on the show, I think we are in a Dungeons

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Speaker 1: and Dragons campaign and I'm about to dungeon master for

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Speaker 1: the first time. Very nervous, very excited. Both that is,

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Speaker 1: that's one of the things I'm envious about and not

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Speaker 1: not working locally to the rest of you, is that

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Speaker 1: that is the thing that I don't get to participate in. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: if you're ever like next time you're in town, we

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Speaker 1: should move the date and make it happen. Have Tracy's

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Speaker 1: sort of one shot expendable character showing up in the campaign.

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Speaker 1: We can make this happen, Tracy. Um. Yeah, and I

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Speaker 1: one thing I wanted to note here because we are

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Speaker 1: going to be looking at diversity and women in tabletop gaming,

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Speaker 1: but the crew that I play with is about even

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Speaker 1: in terms of male to female. In fact, I think

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Speaker 1: it's more female. Generally, we do get a you know,

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Speaker 1: one shot player come in sometimes it shifts the ratio,

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Speaker 1: but on on average it's even. It's even. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: have three role playing games that I'm playing in right now.

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Speaker 1: None of them are playing every week, once every two weeks,

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Speaker 1: and the other two are usually once a month. And

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Speaker 1: one of the games sometimes I'm the only woman at

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Speaker 1: the table. It depends a little bit on who's available

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Speaker 1: that day. One of the others is about a fifty

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Speaker 1: fifty and my favorite of the games. Not to diss

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Speaker 1: any of the gms running these games, but my favorite

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Speaker 1: of the game has four players. Only one is a

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Speaker 1: man and the guy running the campaign as a man.

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Speaker 1: But the fact that the men are in the minority

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Speaker 1: is a nice change of pace in that world for me. Yeah. Um,

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Speaker 1: and I I'm pretty new to the whole thing. This

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Speaker 1: This campaign I'm playing with co workers is the first

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Speaker 1: time I've ever played, so I haven't experienced much outside

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Speaker 1: of that. I have played online since I started this

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Speaker 1: in person campaign, So that is an option that it's

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Speaker 1: a thing. Yeah. My husband runs several campaigns that he

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Speaker 1: does exclusively online, and he used to run a local

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Speaker 1: campaign that had mostly local people but a couple of

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Speaker 1: people who had moved out of state and they were

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Speaker 1: looped in on Google Hangout or Skype or something similar.

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Speaker 1: So that is a thing that can be done. There

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Speaker 1: are whole tools to let people do that more efficiently

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Speaker 1: and have you know, little figurines on the screen of

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Speaker 1: where people's characters are and that kind of thing. Cool. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we were doing it um on Google Hangouts and I

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Speaker 1: must slow typer And that was my biggest problem I

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Speaker 1: encountered was people would get there before me and I'd

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Speaker 1: have to retype something else. Um. But if if you

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Speaker 1: don't if you want to play and maybe doing it

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Speaker 1: in person isn't an option that is something that you

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Speaker 1: could look into. Yeah, um, what is your history Tracy

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Speaker 1: and tabletop gaming? How did you get into it? Well,

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Speaker 1: when I was a kid, we had some of the

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Speaker 1: standard games that folks often have when their children at home,

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Speaker 1: like candy Land and Shoots and Ladders and that kind

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Speaker 1: of thing. But it was really my grandmother had two games.

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Speaker 1: They were Monopoly and Battleship. And so my brother and

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Speaker 1: my cousin and I we were the only three cousins

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Speaker 1: on that side of the family, and every time we

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Speaker 1: went to visit my grandmother, we would play one of

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Speaker 1: those games. Although normally, for some reason, it was me

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Speaker 1: and my cousin gagging up on my brother until he

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Speaker 1: would get so mad he would throw the board, which

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Speaker 1: is not a productive way to play a game. No,

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Speaker 1: it set the stage maybe for later rivalry, but that

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Speaker 1: was the real starting point. I kind of went on

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Speaker 1: a journey from there that that was not so much

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Speaker 1: about tormenting my brother just a little bit. Maybe sometimes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I our work game night, we've banned Monopoly, and uh,

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Speaker 1: I remember distinctly as a child, I've never wont to

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Speaker 1: gave Monopoly ever, and I even cheated more than once

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Speaker 1: and still lost. Monopoly is one of the most maligned games,

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Speaker 1: I think, and one of the interesting things about it

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Speaker 1: is that it's based on a game called the Landlords Game,

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Speaker 1: which was developed by a woman who was developing this

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Speaker 1: game because she wanted to show the dangers of capitalism.

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Speaker 1: So it actually had two different sets of rules. One

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Speaker 1: set of rules was based on this proposed tax change

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Speaker 1: that was going to be way more equal in the

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Speaker 1: distribution of wealth, and the other was like the monopolists

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Speaker 1: rules set, and those rules made meant that, you know,

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Speaker 1: one person became really really rich and everybody else lost

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Speaker 1: their money, and the whole idea was to show everybody

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Speaker 1: that that was but you know, the danger of capitalism.

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Speaker 1: But when later on first someone stole her idea and

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Speaker 1: then bought her patent for a tiny amount of money,

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Speaker 1: they kept only the rules for the capitalists because it's

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Speaker 1: uh more fun. I guess to play that way. Her

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Speaker 1: name was Lizzie McGee. There's a whole story there. Yeah, um,

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Speaker 1: I want to play her version of Monopoly. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: like the idea of having a version of Monopoly where

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Speaker 1: the whole purpose is that everyone winds up with enough money, right,

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Speaker 1: that's almost difficult for me to imagine. Um. I also

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Speaker 1: got into tabletop gaming when I was pretty young, although

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Speaker 1: similar to video games, which I also got into when

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Speaker 1: I was young, I didn't I wouldn't have called myself

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Speaker 1: a tabletop gamer until recently, even though it was something

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Speaker 1: I was doing. UM, I just didn't think of it

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Speaker 1: in that way. But when I was little, we had

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Speaker 1: a whole board game closet and I used to semi

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Speaker 1: look forward to um when the power would go out,

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Speaker 1: because it meant that my whole family would gather in

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Speaker 1: the living room and we would usually have a fire,

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Speaker 1: candles and we would play board games. And there was

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Speaker 1: something I loved about. There's no TV, no video games.

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Speaker 1: This is what we're gonna do, And it was one

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Speaker 1: of the rare times that we would do something together. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think that's one of the coolest things about most

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Speaker 1: of these games is that I only play them with

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Speaker 1: people I would also just hang out with. Like, I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to go play some tabletop games with people

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Speaker 1: who I actively dislike. Uh, It's it's all about spending

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Speaker 1: time together and actually having fun, which you're you're wanting

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Speaker 1: the power to go out story reminds me of and

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Speaker 1: and kind of going off of that. There are some

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Speaker 1: benefits of tabletop gaming. Um, it has a couple of

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Speaker 1: help benefits. It can be a therapeutic activity that is

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Speaker 1: beneficial for teens or children or adults to learn how

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Speaker 1: to socialize. I personally got into D and D last

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Speaker 1: year as a way to help manage my c PTSD,

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Speaker 1: and I also used it to help me figure out

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Speaker 1: the ending of the book I was writing. And I

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Speaker 1: absolutely figured out the ending right away after the first session.

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Speaker 1: I think because I was playing the main character of

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Speaker 1: the book and I knew what she would do right away. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's awesome. I didn't ever, I didn't get into gay

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Speaker 1: mean as a way to deal with my anxiety. But universally,

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Speaker 1: if I show up at game night and I am

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Speaker 1: just a ball of anxiety, I feel better by the end. Yeah. Sometimes,

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Speaker 1: I mean, sometimes it's just that when we are in

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Speaker 1: this fantasy world, there are predictable rules that govern the world,

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Speaker 1: and being there is kind of comforting. And then sometimes

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Speaker 1: it's more like I got to take out my aggression

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Speaker 1: by lighting some evil things on fire. Yeah, that surprisingly

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Speaker 1: does help release some aggression I've found. Yeah, another thing

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Speaker 1: that it does is playing these games can help promote empathy.

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Speaker 1: It can help kids in the development of memory and

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Speaker 1: cognitive skills like problem solving. I would also say, especially

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Speaker 1: in role playing games, creativity, storytelling, teamwork, improvisation, adaptability, and confidence.

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Speaker 1: I can say confidence. That was a big one for

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Speaker 1: me playing D and D in the beginning, because I

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Speaker 1: was so nervous about it. Yeah, I guess my character

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Speaker 1: does this. But it's been like a year and a

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Speaker 1: half now, and my I'm very much more like she

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Speaker 1: throws a bomb at that person. Yeah. Yeah, that just

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Speaker 1: reminded me of hearing Temple grand In talk about UM.

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Speaker 1: Temple Grandon is an animal husbandry expert who was also autistic,

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Speaker 1: and she talked about one of the ways that she

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Speaker 1: really learned to interact with people was that she and

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Speaker 1: her family played games when she was little. UM that

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Speaker 1: involved a lot of rules and a lot of taking

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Speaker 1: turns and a lot of having sort of predictable actions

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Speaker 1: that we're supposed to happen, and that really helped her

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Speaker 1: learn ways to interact with other people. Yeah, Um, I

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Speaker 1: could see that. Another thing is if you're running the game,

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Speaker 1: which is sometimes called like GM gamemastering or d M.

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Speaker 1: In the case of D and D dungeon master, you

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Speaker 1: can add project management and organizational skills to the mix.

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Speaker 1: I can say, as I'm preparing to do this right

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Speaker 1: now so much, yes, and just trying to predict what

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Speaker 1: a group of very different people is going to do,

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Speaker 1: and then knowing in the back of my head that

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Speaker 1: really I can't predict it, try my best. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: is like I feel like I'm running a project right now. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: One of the worst UM tabletop gaming experiences I've ever

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Speaker 1: had was way back in college where it was everybody's

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Speaker 1: early time, Like none of us had a lot of

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Speaker 1: experience either playing the game or running the game. It

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Speaker 1: was a whole group of very inexperienced people, but the

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Speaker 1: d M expected us to do something and we just

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Speaker 1: did not do that thing, and he was completely unprepared

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Speaker 1: for that eventuality, and then we all died, and then

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Speaker 1: everyone was mad at everyone, and just that we just

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Speaker 1: didn't play that again for a while. Yeah, I had

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Speaker 1: to take a step back. We had a similar experience

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Speaker 1: happened recently where UM we it was kind of like

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Speaker 1: the trolley car problem. We were faced with the fact

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Speaker 1: that either the entire party was going to die or

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Speaker 1: we were going to fail our mission, and the town

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Speaker 1: we were supposed to be saving, they were all going

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Speaker 1: to die, and uh, we chose to save ourselves. And

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Speaker 1: afterwards we kept kind of mentioning and passing. I can't

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Speaker 1: stop thinking about that village. And it's an imaginary village,

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Speaker 1: but you feel it, you get invested in it. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: We had a really similar thing in one of the

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Speaker 1: games that I'm playing, which is based on a system

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Speaker 1: called Fate, And in Fate, your characters have different aspects

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Speaker 1: and you figure out what they are kind of collaboratively,

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Speaker 1: and then you your actions in the game a lot

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Speaker 1: of times are connected to them. And we are in

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Speaker 1: this sort of post apocalyptic world where we have just

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Speaker 1: had a series of we show up somewhere a bad

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Speaker 1: things happening. We fix the bad thing, but at what cost.

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Speaker 1: And there was one time when the options were we

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Speaker 1: fail at doing this, or we burn this place down,

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Speaker 1: and without hesitation, we were like, We're just gonna have

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Speaker 1: to burn it down. It's the only thing that's gonna work.

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Speaker 1: I think maybe, um, just in case anyone listening is

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Speaker 1: unsure of what is involved in playing like D and

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Speaker 1: d R role playing game. It's essentially somebody designs a

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Speaker 1: game or you can find pre design games online, and

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Speaker 1: then you all the players have a character that they

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Speaker 1: can role play. Some people don't like the actual role

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Speaker 1: playing bit, but you can act as much as you

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Speaker 1: want on there. And then you're in a group and

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Speaker 1: you sort of it's, I don't know, like a board game,

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Speaker 1: but you're the you're the pieces moving around and talk

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Speaker 1: with each other and um trying to figure out what

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Speaker 1: your character would do. And you get missions save a

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Speaker 1: town from a dragon that sometimes you fail and the

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Speaker 1: whole town gets burned. It's kind of like when you're

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Speaker 1: a kid and you are playing Make believe when with

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Speaker 1: your friends, but there's a structure to kind of guide

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Speaker 1: your collaborative make believe. Yes, yeah, there there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of um rules, rule books. Uh, there is some you know,

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Speaker 1: calculation of of health points and math involved um And

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Speaker 1: that's one thing which we'll get into more later. But

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Speaker 1: that's one thing that kept me from it for a

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Speaker 1: while is because I thought it looked so complicated. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there are there can be not necessarily, there can be

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Speaker 1: many different types of dice. Yeah. Oh, Yeah. I asked

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Speaker 1: for dice for my mom last year for Christmas and

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Speaker 1: she got me. I must have hundreds of dice she

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Speaker 1: got me way to I'm very thankful, but it kind

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Speaker 1: of cracks me up every time. No shortage of dice choices. Nope.

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Speaker 1: But if we go back to the possible health benefits,

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Speaker 1: why talking about this matters at all? Another thing it

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Speaker 1: can do is reduce stress, sort of what we're talking

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Speaker 1: about before, unless you're playing something like Monopoly or I

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Speaker 1: would add risk a risk was a very stressful endeavor

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Speaker 1: for me and my siblings growing up. Yeah. Yeah. My

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Speaker 1: husband likes to play a game called Spirit Island, and

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Speaker 1: I love the idea of the game because a lot

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Speaker 1: of games have this setting where it's sort of like

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Speaker 1: you're the colonizers and the goal is to colonize this place,

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Speaker 1: and Spirit Island is the opposite, like you are the

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Speaker 1: spirits of this island and you're working with its indigenous

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Speaker 1: inhabitants to drive the colonizer's away. And I'm like, I'm

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Speaker 1: on board. I'm on board with that, but it's a

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Speaker 1: game that has so many layers of things going on

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Speaker 1: that I'm also like, this is a little more complex

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Speaker 1: that I want to spend my my fun time on. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that's something that I think people who aren't involved

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Speaker 1: in tabletop gaming might not realize that there are so

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Speaker 1: many options out there for you. And I have friends

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Speaker 1: who don't or haven't previously liked tabletop gaming because they're

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Speaker 1: they don't like competition, they're not competitive stresses them out.

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Speaker 1: But there are so many games that aren't that way.

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Speaker 1: And um, we're gonna give some recommendations at the end,

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Speaker 1: and one of the ones that I'm going to recommend

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Speaker 1: is it's like more cooperative. Yeah, there's a whole genre

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Speaker 1: of cooperative games. And if people watch Parks and Wreck

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Speaker 1: and they've seen that episode about the Cones of dun

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Speaker 1: Shire and they think that's what all these games are like, Like,

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Speaker 1: there are games that are kind of like the Cones

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Speaker 1: of Dunshire. A lot of them are way more chill

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Speaker 1: and are more like an elegant but challenging, simple system. Right,

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Speaker 1: I forgot about the Cones of don't dun Shire. I

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Speaker 1: recently reminded of the thirty Rock version, which is like

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Speaker 1: colonizers of I don't know, but it's it's sellers of Catan. Yeah. Yeah, Um,

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Speaker 1: a two thous and three study out of the New

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Speaker 1: England Journal of Medicine linked playing board games with decreased

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Speaker 1: risk of Alzheimer's and dementia. And I just wanted to

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Speaker 1: throw this in there in here because I thought it

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Speaker 1: was so interesting. Students at Gettysburg College use clue as

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Speaker 1: a way to practice creating an AI. Yeah, that's really cool.

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Speaker 1: While while we were getting ready for this episode, a

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Speaker 1: thing that I meant to mention earlier was that there's

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Speaker 1: also a study about ma jong and older people and

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Speaker 1: um like people in retirement communities and it helping both

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Speaker 1: with hand eye coordination and with basically having less stress

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Speaker 1: and more social activity, which I thought was really cool. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if we look at numbers, it seems that more and

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Speaker 1: more people are getting into tabletop gaming. If you look

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Speaker 1: at the hobby gaming market, which includes collectibles like Pokemon

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Speaker 1: cards and dice, board games, role playing games, and miniatures,

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Speaker 1: between sales doubled money wise, that's an increase from eight

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Speaker 1: hundred million to one point four billion. And I do

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Speaker 1: want to mention about miniatures here. So if you're playing

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Speaker 1: something like D and D, you can get these um miniatures.

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Speaker 1: They're little figurines and you can use that to represent

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Speaker 1: your character to move around, and that is another area

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Speaker 1: where you can be I've seen people do amazing artistic

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Speaker 1: creative stuff. I have my own little miniature. I've painted it.

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Speaker 1: It's not good, but I had fun doing it. I

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Speaker 1: have I have my one, uh, sort of adequately painted miniature.

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Speaker 1: My husband plays some games that are totally based in miniatures,

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Speaker 1: so he has these whole armies of painted miniatures. He

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Speaker 1: finds the painting part really relaxing, and he hasn't been

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Speaker 1: playing them as much recently. And I'm like, there's a

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Speaker 1: whole we have a whole shelf full of man's over here,

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Speaker 1: like you're gonna play with that? They're ready to go.

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Speaker 1: Um And because sort of a way I think to

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Speaker 1: to see the growth of tabletop gaming is through these

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Speaker 1: board game cafes and bars, which I have seen more

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Speaker 1: and more of. Um. There's gin Con, which is the

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Speaker 1: largest gaming convention in the United States. It's over fifty

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Speaker 1: years old and attendance broke records. I've never been, Have

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Speaker 1: you been, Tracy, I have not been. I have been

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Speaker 1: to other conventions that have tabletop gaming, like it's a

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Speaker 1: big component. But at about the same time that I

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Speaker 1: had enough interest and enough different types of games that

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Speaker 1: I wanted to go to an event just for that.

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Speaker 1: I also had become way less enamored with giant conventions

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Speaker 1: and a lot happier at smaller events. One of my favorite,

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Speaker 1: not even one of my my absolute favorite vacation every

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Speaker 1: year is that a bunch of friends rents a big

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Speaker 1: old house out in the poke knows and we go

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Speaker 1: out there for a long weekend and play a bunch

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Speaker 1: of games and like hang out and it's awesome. It's

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Speaker 1: like thirty five people, not thousand people, much more manageable crowdside.

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Speaker 1: And then also, if you just want to read a book,

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Speaker 1: nobody's gonna bother you. It's fine, right you can. You

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Speaker 1: can step away more easily should you so desire. If

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Speaker 1: we look at the number of female tabletop gamers, data

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Speaker 1: is difficult to come by, we can safely assume that

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Speaker 1: more women are playing now than previously, as more people

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Speaker 1: are playing in general. At gen Con, over half the

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Speaker 1: speakers were women, and that's huge considering that only one

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Speaker 1: of the speakers was female. It's not enough, oh no,

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Speaker 1: And I bet some of you will remember this from

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Speaker 1: your social media feeds. A panel at gen Con called

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Speaker 1: writing Women Friendly Comics at first had no women on

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Speaker 1: the panel. Yeah. Yeah, since I know several game developers,

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Speaker 1: many of them are women, and they've been doing this

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Speaker 1: thing where they go and submit a bunch of panels

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Speaker 1: to conventions and they don't really announce that they are

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Speaker 1: submitting a whole bunch of panels that only have women

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Speaker 1: and non binary people on them, just sneaking in there.

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Speaker 1: And then people show up and it's a panel that

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Speaker 1: is all women and non binary folks, and they're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is awesome. This is a bunch of women, and

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Speaker 1: they're talking about something besides being women in this space, right,

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Speaker 1: because we can talk about other things. It's true, yes,

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Speaker 1: but that is at least in my head, and I

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Speaker 1: would guess a lot of people's heads. That's the stereotype.

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Speaker 1: If you think of a tabletop gamer, it's a youngish

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Speaker 1: white male. Yeah, And the conventions I have been to

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Speaker 1: are like, youngish white males are the largest demographic, like

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Speaker 1: not only demographic, but for sure the biggest one. And

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Speaker 1: there are a few informal surveys out there that suggest

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Speaker 1: people who identify as women make up only ten of

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Speaker 1: board game players and that the majority of the respondents

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Speaker 1: in these surveys UM are white. Yeah. I always wonder

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Speaker 1: sort of what we were talking about at the beginning

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Speaker 1: with video games is how people are defining what counts

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Speaker 1: as a board game player, because a lot of the

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Speaker 1: studies that suggest that men are overwhelmingly the people playing

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Speaker 1: video games are just disregarding the games that are most

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Speaker 1: popular among women. And so I kind of wonder if

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Speaker 1: if these definitions are including things like party games that

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Speaker 1: women might be playing more than they might be playing

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Speaker 1: you know, Settlers of Ten right there, and maybe so

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Speaker 1: maybe it might be a little closer. I mean, I know,

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Speaker 1: as kids, games are for everyone, and then it's it's

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Speaker 1: an adulthood that suddenly it seems like there is a

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00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 1: world of specialty game stores that um have a largely

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Speaker 1: often male demographic. Yeah. And while I was looking into

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Speaker 1: the research for this episode there it's kind of a

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Speaker 1: new area of academic study. UM. But a lot of

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Speaker 1: people have been writing about it and are writing about it,

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Speaker 1: and from what I read, several women said, I know

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Speaker 1: that this is the stereotype, but that's not been my experience. UM.

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00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:40,360
Speaker 1: I've always had women, people of color playing in my group. Yeah,

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00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 1: which is interesting. Yeah, when it comes to the people

404
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 1: that I personally know and hang out with. UM. But

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00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 1: it's not just an overwhelmingly male scene. It's it's when

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Speaker 1: I get into a gigantic group of people at something

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Speaker 1: like a convention, and I just I don't think that's

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Speaker 1: totally reflective of who's really playing games, right, And I

409
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:07,239
Speaker 1: always think in surveys like the one we're discussing, a

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Speaker 1: lot of times they're self selecting who's right answer that survey,

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Speaker 1: it might more likely be this type of like white, young,

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Speaker 1: white male. UM. But we do have some more concrete

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Speaker 1: numbers on the development side. Be selling board games in

414
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Speaker 1: sixteen were all designed by men, and the nineteen nominees

415
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Speaker 1: for Game of the Year awards between of those, none

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Speaker 1: of them identified as women. And you, Tracy, have put

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Speaker 1: me in touch with some amazing women in the space,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to do a whole follow up episode

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Speaker 1: on the development side of tabletop gaming. I'm very excited

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Speaker 1: about that. Those are some of my favorite people. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna go ahead and say thank you. Two

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Speaker 1: of them are people I talked to literally every day

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Speaker 1: of my life. Yes, so excited. UM, so so we'll

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Speaker 1: we'll come back to we'll follow up with that. UM.

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Speaker 1: For me, when I first got into tabletop gaming, especially

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Speaker 1: something like D and D, I was very intimidated by it.

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Speaker 1: I remember distinctly being at dragon Con a couple of

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Speaker 1: years ago, and UM, me and some new friends were

429
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 1: discussing what kind of games we enjoyed, and when these

430
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 1: new friends of mine, who were all men, asked if

431
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 1: I liked tabletop games like D and D. Before before

432
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: he had even finished asking the question, I was frantically

433
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 1: shaking my head. Um. And I have looked back at

434
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 1: that moment. I tried to get to the bottom of

435
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 1: why I felt that way and why I felt so intimidated,

436
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 1: And I do think it's because I thought it was

437
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 1: something for mostly dudes who wouldn't have the patience to

438
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 1: teach me, who wouldn't want to play with me, who

439
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 1: might be sexist or me, and if I did play

440
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 1: with them, and then kind of expect me to just well,

441
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,120
Speaker 1: this is the game, it's fun. Um. And like I said,

442
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 1: I also thought I'd be really complicated to get into

443
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,200
Speaker 1: and it sort of stressed me out the thought of

444
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 1: acting or improving even though I'm somebody who does that,

445
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 1: like I act and I do improv. For some reason,

446
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 1: the idea of having to do it with a group

447
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 1: of people really made me nervous. But you don't have to.

448
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 1: That is one thing you can do that stuff, uh

449
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,879
Speaker 1: to the level of your comfort, right right? Yeah. I

450
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 1: think I had a related but slightly different response to

451
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:29,880
Speaker 1: the same, not exactly the same perception, because in my

452
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: college years in early twenties, my gaming life was sort

453
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: of rooted in some internalized misogyny because I had that

454
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,360
Speaker 1: whole idea that a lot of things that were typically

455
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 1: feminine were bad and that there was some kind of

456
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 1: value in being in quotation marks not like the other girls.

457
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,719
Speaker 1: So I was mostly hanging out with men, and I

458
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: was mostly hanging out with men because I sort of

459
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 1: felt like somehow women weren't as fun to hang out with.

460
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 1: All of this was incorrect. I'm used out onto like

461
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 1: some amazing friendships because of this like internal baggage, But

462
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 1: that meant that I was mostly hanging out with guys,

463
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 1: and I was mostly hanging out with guys who were

464
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:14,719
Speaker 1: playing a very particular style of of board gaming and

465
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 1: and role playing games specifically, and it wasn't until I

466
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 1: got probably into my thirties that I was like, oh wait,

467
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,679
Speaker 1: there is a whole world of games beyond that that

468
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 1: is more welcoming to more types of people than what

469
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: was back there before. And you know, then I also

470
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 1: started working on my whole internal life problem, you know,

471
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 1: on step at a time. I had a similar thing

472
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 1: with video games where I felt like it somehow made

473
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 1: me like I wore like a badge of honor that

474
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 1: I was playing these video games with with all men um.

475
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: But for me to get into the tabletop gaming, I

476
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 1: do owe a lot of people, some men, some women,

477
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: But it's sort of felt like it happened all at

478
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 1: once that everybody was telling me, You've got to play

479
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 1: this board game that I've never heard of, and you

480
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 1: gotta play this board game that I've never heard of.

481
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 1: I don't know if there was just some surge of

482
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: popularity somewhere, but I owe a lot of friends for

483
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 1: introducing me to all of these amazing games and and

484
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 1: sort of to this whole world that was yeah, yeah,

485
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:26,719
Speaker 1: And you and I are not the only ones who

486
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 1: have felt that tabletop games were not for us. And

487
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 1: we'll get into some reasons why after a quick break

488
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: for word from our sponsor, and we're back, Thank you sponsor.

489
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 1: Like a lot of our media, tabletop games do not

490
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: have the best track record with positive female portrayals and

491
00:29:55,680 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 1: providing diverse characters games that have a les her amount

492
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 1: of female characters, if any. UM. We mentioned in our

493
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 1: episode around female action figures that Asboro gotten some hot

494
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: water for leaving the female character ray out of the

495
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 1: newest version of Star Wars Monopoly, and my favorite part

496
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 1: of that was their response, She'll be another games. It's

497
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 1: not a great answer, We'll put her in a future game.

498
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: She's not here now. And it was they replaced her

499
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: with a stormtrooper. It was a character. She's a she's

500
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 1: a big character for those that don't know. UM. For

501
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 1: her not to be included was a pretty big deal.

502
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 1: Perhaps there are female characters, but they are overly sexualized

503
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 1: or they are relegated to traditionally female less active roles. Yeah,

504
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 1: it's like you'll have a game that's based on cards

505
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: with characters drawn on them, and for some reason the

506
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: women are all teachers and secretaries. Right would that be?

507
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 1: I can't imagine or um. I always love the critique

508
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: of when armors so sexualized and clearly that's not going

509
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 1: to help you in the fighting situation. Um, it's kind

510
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 1: of a running joke, and yet we still continue to

511
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 1: see it. And I will say, I got no problem.

512
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: If you wanna, in a game like D and D

513
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 1: create a sexy character, I'm I'm all for it. But

514
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 1: if if that's like we're seeing this in the official

515
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: media of the game, then that is a problem. Instruction

516
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: manuals have been called out to for using he to

517
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: refer to all players. And this is improving, but slowly,

518
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 1: and we have got a long way, though, because some

519
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 1: of the first articles written by playtesters about D and

520
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 1: D in the seventies came with gems like this one.

521
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 1: There will be four major groups in which women may enter.

522
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 1: They may be fighters, magic users, thieves, and clerics. They

523
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 1: may progress to the level of men in the area

524
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 1: of magic and in some ways surpass men as thieves.

525
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 1: Elvin women may arise especially to high levels, and clerics

526
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 1: to the elves only as fighters are women clearly behind

527
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 1: men in all cases, but even they have attributes that

528
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: their male characters do not. And this article goes on

529
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 1: to say that female characters true strength lies with the

530
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 1: beauty part of their Christmas score. So D and D

531
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: your character has these six ability scores. One of them

532
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 1: is charisma. As far as I know, the beauty thing

533
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: isn't there anymore. No. Well, and also now women don't

534
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: or female characters don't innately get one less strength because

535
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: they are female, right, which is a positive. But this,

536
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:46,719
Speaker 1: this beauty part of the Christmas score that is no

537
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 1: longer with us, gave women female characters abilities such as

538
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 1: charm men, seduction, horrid beauty, and worship. Yeah, we don't

539
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 1: need that. No. There were also campaign settings. I mean,

540
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: you can still go and buy copies of old campaign

541
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 1: settings from earlier versions of D and D, and sometimes

542
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: there are guidelines on how to adapt them to the

543
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 1: newest rules system. And you can find some where it's like, okay,

544
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 1: all of the characters who are all presumed to me

545
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: to be male, walk into this room where there is

546
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 1: a siren who is going to charm any but everybody,

547
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 1: and like it's now the bad the bad guy is

548
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 1: a woman, and the woman's power is that she's just

549
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 1: way too sexy, and oh yeah, the newest version did

550
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 1: come up as an example of a positive improvement when

551
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 1: I was researching this and that it suggests that players

552
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 1: should think outside of the binary box. Essentially, um, you

553
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 1: can be you can create whatever character you want to create. Um,

554
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be human, it could be all

555
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 1: kinds of things. In the kickstarter for one deck dungeon

556
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:06,719
Speaker 1: and made dollars, it's starting goal was twenty dollars, so

557
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: way surpast that. End of note, all of the images

558
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: of playable characters were of strong, diverse women. But of

559
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 1: course not everyone was excited about this Summer of yours

560
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: on Amazon called the game sexist or labeled it as

561
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: miss injury. It looks cool, yes, well, and we keep

562
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 1: seeing that same basic thing play out where uh, something

563
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 1: will come along that has an all female cast and

564
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 1: it will break box office records or become a best

565
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 1: seller or whatever, and then there will be this whole

566
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 1: conversation of can women really dominate at the box office?

567
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 1: Why we keep having this conversation? I know, I that

568
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 1: is a pet peeve of mine. Back to the tabletop

569
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:58,720
Speaker 1: gaming pasco host Kristen and I went to this women

570
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 1: in Gaming event at the Museum of Design Atlanta a

571
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 1: couple of years ago. You can find the video online

572
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 1: on YouTube, and it was one of my favorite. One

573
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 1: of my favorite parts of this whole exhibit was a

574
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:14,319
Speaker 1: section on old board games and of the games that

575
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:19,399
Speaker 1: included women, so many of them were women in domestic roles.

576
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 1: Are women trying to find a husband before the other players?

577
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 1: That was how you won as you found a husband first.

578
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,760
Speaker 1: One in particular, featured all the jobs that a woman

579
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 1: could have in this board game's mind at the time,

580
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 1: and they were secretary, teacher, flight attendant, nurse, princess, or ballerina.

581
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 1: All right, then, yeah, nothing wrong with any of those occupations.

582
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: But I feel that women perhaps can do other types

583
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 1: of things. I think possibly, like design games. Possibly. And

584
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 1: we've said it time and time again on this show,

585
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 1: but seeing yourself represented is important. That's not even just

586
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 1: me saying it. There have been studies that show that

587
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 1: bear that out. Um, not seeing yourself can lead to

588
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 1: feelings of disempowerment, invisibility, or insignificance on an individual level,

589
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,879
Speaker 1: on a community level, and it can lead to decisions

590
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 1: made based on who we see or don't see on

591
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 1: a societal level, like people in power will make decisions

592
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 1: based on perceived like representation, how they think that must

593
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 1: be the truth in society. So if all you're seeing

594
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 1: our white men, then you're going to make decisions based

595
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: on the fact that there are way more white men

596
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 1: than there actually are. Yeah. Yeah, And plus, think of

597
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 1: all the cool and diverse media that we're missing out on.

598
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 1: There's a lot of it. There is, there is. And

599
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 1: there was this study that you found Tracy looking into

600
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 1: gender and racial representation and when it comes to the

601
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 1: illustrators and designers of the top two hundred board games

602
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,720
Speaker 1: as ranked by Board Game Geek. And it came out

603
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: like this month, December twenty so it's pretty recent. Yeah.

604
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,359
Speaker 1: You and I had scheduled this recording and I saw it.

605
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,400
Speaker 1: I saw people talking about it on Twitter and said, Okay,

606
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:24,360
Speaker 1: need to bring this up for that episode. Excellent timing. Yeah,

607
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 1: And what it found is probably what you might expect.

608
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 1: The dime designers and illustrators were overwhelmingly white men of

609
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:34,839
Speaker 1: these two hundred games, and that this was reflected in

610
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:40,839
Speaker 1: the artwork, which disproportionately is of white men. The numbers

611
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:42,879
Speaker 1: on this very depending on the source, but it also

612
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 1: found a majority of the players were also white men.

613
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 1: The author does acknowledge the limitation of this work and

614
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 1: calls for more research, but it's definitely worth checking out

615
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 1: if this is something that is at all of interest

616
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 1: to you. Yeah, because it's one of those things that's

617
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 1: drawing from board game geek as a resource. If you're

618
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 1: not familiar with that. It's sort of like if you

619
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 1: were trying to look at trends in movies based on

620
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 1: their where they were ranked on IMDb. Um, it's like

621
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 1: that would be sort of like a comparable thing. So

622
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 1: there are a whole lot of movies out in the

623
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 1: world that for whatever reason, are not up at the

624
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 1: top of IMDb. So it gets a little bit of

625
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:27,240
Speaker 1: a skewed data set to start with, but still super interesting. Yeah,

626
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: and it it references a study that came out a

627
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: couple of years ago that found that board games are

628
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 1: more likely to feature a sheep on the cover than

629
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 1: a woman. And this study found that, at least according

630
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 1: to to the data um the study author was looking at,

631
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 1: that is true, aliens and barnyard animals like sheep grace

632
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 1: the cover art of board games at a higher rate

633
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 1: than women do. Yeah, some of those games are great, Like,

634
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 1: no criticizing over those games as a thing, but it

635
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 1: is a pattern a little disturbing a little bit, just

636
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:09,799
Speaker 1: a little bit. Something else I found a lot of

637
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 1: accounts of online but have never personally run into myself

638
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 1: is women running into a lot of misogyny when playing

639
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 1: an RPG game like D and D. Male players over

640
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: sexualizing the female character that the female player is playing.

641
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,919
Speaker 1: Are are maybe themselves playing a female character and then

642
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 1: over sexualizing her or making her do stupid things things

643
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,880
Speaker 1: like that. UM, And I know I do know people

644
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 1: personally who have lost friends over things like this. I've

645
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,759
Speaker 1: never experienced it personally, but I do know people that have. UM.

646
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 1: There are a couple of bars in Atlanta that do

647
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: D and D nights where you can drop in and play,

648
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 1: and I've done it once, so it's more likely to

649
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 1: be strangers that you're playing with, and I had a

650
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,280
Speaker 1: good time when I did it, but I generally avoid

651
00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:00,360
Speaker 1: them because I do have this suspicion that I would

652
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 1: run into something like that. Are people who will pick

653
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:10,839
Speaker 1: fights over the rules or um. Like you said, it's

654
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 1: a fun thing, and I think with friends it's much

655
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 1: more relaxed. But I have noticed I've gone out of

656
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 1: my way to avoid going to them, even if I

657
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 1: think they I want to play, and I think they

658
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 1: could be fun, because I do have this fear that

659
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:30,720
Speaker 1: I would run into this thing that we're describing right now. Yeah, yeah,

660
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 1: especially since I know so many women who develop games.

661
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 1: A lot of them go to game conventions all the

662
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 1: time and are running games for a ton of people

663
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 1: all the time because they're they're demonstrating their game, and

664
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 1: so I've heard a lot of stories about that kind

665
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 1: of you know, either comments that are inappropriate or sexualizing

666
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 1: encounters between characters in a game when that's not really necessary.

667
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:59,320
Speaker 1: And I think because I play almost exclusively with people

668
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 1: that I'm already ends with and want to hang out with,

669
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 1: I don't really have that experience the thing that I

670
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 1: do have sometimes, even though, like most of the guys

671
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 1: I know, try really hard to be self aware and

672
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 1: to to not just steamroll over everyone in the room,

673
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 1: especially when I'm at a game where I'm either the

674
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 1: only woman at the table or there's only one other

675
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 1: woman at the table, sometimes it does feel like the

676
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 1: guys are dominating the situation. Um and and normally if

677
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 1: we're like, hey, guys, they're also here. We also can

678
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 1: help make the decision of what we're gonna do against

679
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 1: this monster. Uh, they'll be like, all right, So that's

680
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 1: the thing. It's a process though. Yeah, and that's a

681
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 1: good point because I have definitely encountered being talked over

682
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 1: interrupted by dudes when I'm playing UM, and I think

683
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 1: it is a combination of me not having the confidence

684
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 1: to speak up as loudly as they do, but also yeah,

685
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:00,879
Speaker 1: just kind of a lack of awareness. But I think

686
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,959
Speaker 1: if you're playing with someone who is new, then maybe

687
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 1: keep that in mind, especially if you're running the game,

688
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 1: just checking in to see maybe this person just needs

689
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 1: a little more encouragement or needs sort of as a push,

690
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 1: because I'm a quiet person in general, and a lot

691
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:24,320
Speaker 1: of times I'm I'm happy to um let other people

692
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 1: be the loud ones. But at the same time, if

693
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 1: I am trying to say something, I should like to

694
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 1: be heard, right. Several articles I read encouraged dungeon masters.

695
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 1: So again, these folks that are running the D and

696
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:45,840
Speaker 1: D campaigns to make sure that they are putting female

697
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 1: characters and positions of power in the game that they're designing,

698
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:52,359
Speaker 1: instead of relegating them to things like barmaid. I've also

699
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 1: read plenty of accounts of female d M s facing

700
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 1: constant questioning by male players, which does not surprise me

701
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 1: at all. I've never seen it, but I believe it completely. Similarly,

702
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 1: several women I was reading accounts about online with it.

703
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 1: They would go into gaming stores and almost immediately would

704
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:14,759
Speaker 1: be asked if they were shopping for their boyfriend, if

705
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 1: they need any help, the assumption that a woman couldn't

706
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:23,240
Speaker 1: possibly be there for herself. Yeah, when I lived in Nashville,

707
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 1: there was a place that I went. There was a

708
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:29,959
Speaker 1: combination games, comics, and music store, and the first few

709
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,880
Speaker 1: times that I went in there, the assumption was that

710
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 1: I was there for the music, which sometimes I was

711
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: there for the music, but I was also there for

712
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:42,279
Speaker 1: the comics and the games. And I remember and went

713
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 1: walking in. I mean, this has been well over a

714
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:46,840
Speaker 1: decade ago, so like, don't go find that place and

715
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 1: yell at them. But I remember walking in at one

716
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,279
Speaker 1: point and somebody being like, the music's over there, and

717
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 1: I was there to pick up my weekly pulls of

718
00:43:55,239 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 1: my comic books. It's like, just not no, um, I've

719
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 1: I've definitely experienced that in the realm of comics too,

720
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 1: and I've spoke about on this show before. But what

721
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 1: really bothers me is once you've sort of passed this

722
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 1: test and proved that, oh, yes, I do read these things,

723
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: then I almost always would get asked out, is this

724
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 1: your only series comic books? Ah? Sometimes I would just

725
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:34,800
Speaker 1: start pretending like, no, this isn't for being be left alone.

726
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 1: Another thing we have to talk about, unfortunately, is sexual harassment.

727
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:47,320
Speaker 1: In A Canadian tabletop gamer named Emily Garland posted a

728
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 1: piece on Tumbler called tabletop Gaming has a white male

729
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 1: terrorist problem. As you can imagine from the title, it

730
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 1: got a lot of attention. I remember when this came out.

731
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:02,240
Speaker 1: Do you not remember it? Yeah? Well, and I remember,

732
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 1: in a good way a lot of the men in

733
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 1: my life passing it around amongst themselves, like, guys, this

734
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:11,280
Speaker 1: is a problem that we need to proactively be handling.

735
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 1: So go on, Yeah, that's great, um. She wrote in

736
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 1: this Tumbler post, white male terrorism is the white underbelly

737
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 1: of the gaming community, meant to terrify and disrupt the

738
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:25,280
Speaker 1: lives of those who threaten the status quo by race, gender,

739
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 1: or sexuality. And you can find the article online if

740
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 1: you want to read it. It's pretty upsetting, but it

741
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 1: is worth a read. She identifies three main concerns sexual harassment,

742
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 1: exclusion of women who are vocal about marginalization and unfair treatment,

743
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 1: and a failure of the tabletop gaming industry as a

744
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 1: whole to speak out about things like gamer gates and

745
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 1: she won a sexual harassment lawsuit against a gaming store

746
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:55,720
Speaker 1: that she worked in that same year. Yeah. Yeah, it's

747
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 1: not a pleasant read at all. It is not um.

748
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:04,240
Speaker 1: Definitely know that going in, but it's it's worth reading,

749
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 1: especially if you're somebody that is a part of the

750
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 1: tabletop gaming community. I would say check it out. And

751
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 1: something I saw in a lot of places that so

752
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 1: often the response to all of this everything we're talking about,

753
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:25,240
Speaker 1: UM is but from people who don't want the community

754
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 1: to change. UM, go play something else if it bothers.

755
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 1: You don't make this fun hobby political. But it's about

756
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 1: making this fun hobby uh and beneficial activity more inclusive

757
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 1: and better for everybody. And in light of that, we

758
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:47,839
Speaker 1: have some recommendations and resources for you. But first one

759
00:46:47,880 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 1: more quick break for word from our sponsor. H we're back,

760
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 1: Thank you sponsor, and we're back with some game recommendations.

761
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:08,880
Speaker 1: I've said it before, I'll say it again. I love

762
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 1: pandemic and this is so good. It is so good UM,

763
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:15,439
Speaker 1: and it's hard and I love it. There's like eight

764
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 1: ways to lose, an only one way to win. And

765
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 1: it's cooperative too, like we were staying in the beginning. Um.

766
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 1: Some people who don't like competition, you are competing against

767
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:25,920
Speaker 1: the game. It's pretty tense. I'm not gonna like sugarcoat it.

768
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 1: But you aren't competing against your friends, right. Your friends

769
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 1: are working with you to try to stop the illness.

770
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 1: One thing I love about this game is UM. A

771
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 1: lot of times when I'll have people over and we

772
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:43,359
Speaker 1: have all this entertainment available to us, friends of mine

773
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:46,799
Speaker 1: who aren't that in two tabletop gaming in general will

774
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:50,360
Speaker 1: request that we play Pandemic. It is like a fun

775
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 1: crowd pleaser. It has an equal number of male to

776
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 1: female characters who aren't sexualized. They're dressed appropriately for their job. UM,

777
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 1: and the jobs are things like scientists and quarantine specialists.

778
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 1: It's so fun. You can play it with just two

779
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:07,839
Speaker 1: players too. That's another thing I love about it. I

780
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:13,840
Speaker 1: have lost it spectacularly. I have two by once. Um,

781
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:17,239
Speaker 1: like we were doing fine, UM, and I don't want

782
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 1: to go too much in the mechanics here. But basically

783
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:21,759
Speaker 1: we drew one card and we went from fine too

784
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 1: we lost. Yeah. I think this was like three turns

785
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 1: into the game and we just had really bad luck

786
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:31,360
Speaker 1: and it was like this, this outbreak has spread and

787
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 1: the world is over. I think. I think one of

788
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 1: the mechanics is you have these little black cubes that

789
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:40,439
Speaker 1: represent the the illness, and if you run out of them,

790
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:44,239
Speaker 1: game over. And we ran out of them and just

791
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 1: an amazingly short amount of time. Yeah, and I am

792
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:52,960
Speaker 1: have lost these like little tiny cubes, and I've lost

793
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:55,960
Speaker 1: one in the game. The difficulty level is such that

794
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 1: it comes close enough that I made a note saying

795
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:02,359
Speaker 1: I am missing one of these cubes. One. So if

796
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 1: that's what it comes down to, I want everyone to

797
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:11,880
Speaker 1: know that you have one cube that is not there. Yeah,

798
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 1: I gotta have a couple of caveats with the one

799
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 1: that I'm going to recommend next. Because it is based

800
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 1: on Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice, it's called Marrying Mr Darcy.

801
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 1: It's a card game. Since it is based on Pride

802
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:29,200
Speaker 1: and Prejudice. All the characters are white and the goal

803
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 1: of the game is to marry the right person. So like,

804
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 1: let's just get that out on the table. However, it

805
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:40,839
Speaker 1: has the same sense of humor that Jane Austen's writing does,

806
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 1: so the it's a card game, and the cards have

807
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:49,799
Speaker 1: just these very rye witty instructions of of what's going

808
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:53,439
Speaker 1: on in the game. Um, you also do not have

809
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 1: to get married in order to win the game. It

810
00:49:55,800 --> 00:50:00,400
Speaker 1: is completely possible to win the game by not getting married,

811
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:05,759
Speaker 1: and it is it's accessible to people even if they

812
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 1: have no familiarity with Jane Austen. So when I very

813
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 1: first moved to Massachusetts, my husband, who at that time

814
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:15,319
Speaker 1: was my boyfriend, had gone out of town and I

815
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 1: didn't really know many people here very well yet, and

816
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 1: this friend of his said, come over and play games

817
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:22,359
Speaker 1: with us. And I was like, I'm gonna take marrying

818
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:24,759
Speaker 1: Mr Darcy, because I thought when he said us, he

819
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:28,080
Speaker 1: meant me and my wife, but what he really meant

820
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:33,280
Speaker 1: was me and these two other dudes. So it became

821
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:36,839
Speaker 1: me and these three dudes playing a game based on

822
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 1: pride and prejudice, and everybody had a great time. So

823
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:45,799
Speaker 1: that sounds wonderful. It was great. My friends would love

824
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 1: that game for sure. Yeah, yeah, I mean if if

825
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 1: I totally get why, like people might not be into

826
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:54,320
Speaker 1: the idea of playing a game where all the characters

827
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:56,400
Speaker 1: are white and the goal is to get married. Like

828
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:58,319
Speaker 1: I get like that might not be for you. But

829
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:01,279
Speaker 1: if that's for you, and it's probably really for you.

830
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:05,680
Speaker 1: I have another one that UM is a lot more

831
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 1: diverse in its representation, and it is called The T

832
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:12,800
Speaker 1: Dragon Society Card Game, and it's based on a graphic

833
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:16,240
Speaker 1: novel by Katie O'Neill that is called The T Dragon Society,

834
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:20,319
Speaker 1: and that graphic novel is full of LGBTQ characters and

835
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:23,480
Speaker 1: characters of color. And this is another card game where

836
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:26,759
Speaker 1: your goal is to raise these little T dragons. And

837
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:29,799
Speaker 1: the dragons are adorable and the art is adorable, and

838
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:33,839
Speaker 1: the characters the more humanoid characters. One of them is

839
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:37,400
Speaker 1: not strictly human, but they are also adorable. UM. And

840
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:39,319
Speaker 1: even if you're not playing with little kids, I think

841
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:42,359
Speaker 1: the age range is ten and up. UM. If if

842
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:45,239
Speaker 1: you are into the idea of taking care of some

843
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 1: adorable little dragons, you can be a room for like

844
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 1: a table full of adults, and it will still be great. UM.

845
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 1: One that my friends love UM is called Dixit, which

846
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:00,560
Speaker 1: I describe as apples apples but with to full art.

847
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 1: And again, this is this group of friends particularly that

848
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 1: loves it. They don't really like tabletop games in general,

849
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 1: they don't like the competitive aspect of it, but they

850
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:11,879
Speaker 1: love this one and they love the art of it.

851
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:14,840
Speaker 1: And it's really I find it really funny because I

852
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:18,480
Speaker 1: get frustrated playing with them. I I also get frustrated

853
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 1: playing Apple Sapples because I'm very I'm very competitive, and

854
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:29,359
Speaker 1: I I'll get angry if I can't see what you're seeing, Like,

855
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:34,319
Speaker 1: explain to me how that represents being lost, please, yeum.

856
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 1: But they all love it, and both dixit and Apples

857
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 1: to Apples can be really interesting to play when you

858
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:43,839
Speaker 1: when you either know everyone at the table really really

859
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:46,280
Speaker 1: well or when you don't know everyone at the table

860
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:48,920
Speaker 1: really really well, because if you know too people and

861
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:51,400
Speaker 1: you don't know everyone else, then like you might know

862
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:55,239
Speaker 1: enough about how that person thinks to to figure out

863
00:52:55,239 --> 00:53:00,120
Speaker 1: what they're doing a lot more easily. Yeah, it's one

864
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 1: of this thing. I've known this this group of friends

865
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:06,759
Speaker 1: since elementary school, and for some reason, I can't get

866
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:09,319
Speaker 1: a beat what they're seeing when they're looking at these

867
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 1: beautifully the art is really beautiful with that it is.

868
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:16,799
Speaker 1: It's beautiful and kind of abstract. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I

869
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 1: also love Betrayal at the House on the Hill, which

870
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:22,840
Speaker 1: is a game where your your group explores a haunted

871
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:25,560
Speaker 1: house together and about halfway through you trigger a haunt,

872
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:28,560
Speaker 1: and depending on a couple of circumstances, one of the

873
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:32,960
Speaker 1: players becomes a trader and you're sort of working against

874
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:36,919
Speaker 1: that player and then whatever demon, haunt, whatever it is

875
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:42,800
Speaker 1: that they're working with um and there's something like sixty scenarios. So, Annie,

876
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:47,160
Speaker 1: do you know about Betrayal Legacy? I do, but only

877
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 1: a little bit. Tell me about it. I can tell

878
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:51,799
Speaker 1: you about it because I play tested that game. Did

879
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:54,880
Speaker 1: you really? I did? I am listed in the credits.

880
00:53:55,239 --> 00:54:00,440
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I'm so excited. I am really sided to.

881
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:02,800
Speaker 1: I had actually been like, should I talk about betrayal

882
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:05,719
Speaker 1: talk about Betrayal Legacy you and then you win and

883
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:07,799
Speaker 1: put it on the list. I'm so excited. Okay, So

884
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 1: what Annie just said, Like, that's that's still the basic mechanics.

885
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 1: You have a haunted house that you're exploring, and something

886
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 1: happens that triggers a haunt, and somebody who is playing

887
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:21,880
Speaker 1: with you becomes a trader, and the betrayal legacy works

888
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:24,360
Speaker 1: the same way that other legacy games do, which is

889
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 1: that as you play, the game itself changes, so you

890
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:31,799
Speaker 1: might have like the first time you play, this is

891
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 1: made up. I'm not spoiling anything in the game, but

892
00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:38,080
Speaker 1: like the first time you play, a particular character dies

893
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 1: in a particular room, Well, that room might now the

894
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:44,280
Speaker 1: next time you play have something different about it because

895
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:47,160
Speaker 1: that happened in that room the last time. And so

896
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:52,080
Speaker 1: it is I think thirteen chapters. Each chapter takes place

897
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:54,840
Speaker 1: in a different year, so you're in this haunted house

898
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:58,240
Speaker 1: through time, and then once you get all through those

899
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:01,239
Speaker 1: Third Team sort of found National Games, there is a

900
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 1: free play mode where you can play all of these

901
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 1: other scenarios in the same game. So, because it's a

902
00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:10,120
Speaker 1: horror game, it does have some you know, some of

903
00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 1: the same horror tropes that I think some people might

904
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:16,120
Speaker 1: not enjoy. Like if you're not going to enjoy a

905
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 1: game that has a bunch of murder in it, then right, um,

906
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:21,319
Speaker 1: maybe not this one for you. But if you are

907
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 1: into horror movies and horrors books and settings that are

908
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:28,680
Speaker 1: full of ghosts and monsters and scary things, then yeah,

909
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:33,440
Speaker 1: I highly recommend it. Yeah, I have to check out

910
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:37,760
Speaker 1: Legacy now. I've been wanting to, but now I've got to.

911
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 1: I've go our rotation at game night here and it

912
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:44,720
Speaker 1: that is the perfect launching point for our next section,

913
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:50,080
Speaker 1: which is resources, because recently we did play Betrayal at

914
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:52,719
Speaker 1: the House on the Hill and it's kind of a

915
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:54,480
Speaker 1: rule here. And it also just kind of makes sense

916
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:56,719
Speaker 1: that if it's your game, then you're the one that's

917
00:55:56,760 --> 00:56:00,640
Speaker 1: sort of explains it. Make sure it runs smoothly. It's

918
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:04,480
Speaker 1: my game, um, and people voted to play it, but

919
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:07,040
Speaker 1: I hadn't played it in a while, so I wanted

920
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 1: to brush up on the rules. And one of the

921
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 1: first things I did was I got online and watched

922
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:15,319
Speaker 1: the Tabletop with Will Wheaton episode on playing Betrayal at

923
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:17,360
Speaker 1: the House on the Hill to refresh my memory. And

924
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:20,319
Speaker 1: this is an online video series. I watch it on

925
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:23,480
Speaker 1: YouTube where people play tabletop games. A lot of times

926
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 1: there are celebrities and it sounds boring, I know, but

927
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 1: it's usually pretty entertaining and it's it's just good to

928
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:32,200
Speaker 1: see people actually playing it because reading the instructions can

929
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:34,399
Speaker 1: feel really dense, especially on a game like the trail

930
00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:37,040
Speaker 1: at the House on the Hill um and seeing it

931
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:40,960
Speaker 1: kind of play out for me at least is very helpful. Yeah.

932
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:44,520
Speaker 1: I have found that very helpful for seeing how the

933
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:47,360
Speaker 1: game is played when there's not somebody experienced around to

934
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:49,160
Speaker 1: tell you how the game is played, and then it

935
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:53,279
Speaker 1: can be super entertaining. Sometimes the things that happen as

936
00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:57,960
Speaker 1: they are playing are hilarious. Yeah, I seem to recall

937
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:01,520
Speaker 1: when they were playing a Ticket to the story I

938
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:06,279
Speaker 1: was gonna tell's. I guess it's well known among the

939
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:09,319
Speaker 1: tabletop but I remember it vividly as I think it's

940
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:11,399
Speaker 1: one of those like this disaster happens in the middle

941
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:13,240
Speaker 1: of the game, and then there is a slow motion

942
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:18,320
Speaker 1: replay of the disaster. We'll go check out the episode

943
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 1: on Ticket to Ride if you want to find out

944
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:25,640
Speaker 1: what that disaster was. On top of that, there's so

945
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:29,480
Speaker 1: many things out There's so many things. There's podcast, Twitch channels,

946
00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:32,200
Speaker 1: YouTube shows. You've got Becca Scott over at the Twitch

947
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:35,200
Speaker 1: channel Game the Game, Brittany Beau or Bibo over a game,

948
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:38,720
Speaker 1: wire board game Breakfast on the YouTube channel the Dice Tower.

949
00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:41,760
Speaker 1: The amount of content out there on D and D

950
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:48,560
Speaker 1: alone is staggering. So there are if you're intimidated or

951
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:51,640
Speaker 1: you feel like you would just you you would feel

952
00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:57,080
Speaker 1: better if you had visual examples or just hearing people

953
00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:01,720
Speaker 1: talk about playing. There there's stuff for you out there. Yeah.

954
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:05,840
Speaker 1: And if just watching or listening to someone's role playing

955
00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:10,560
Speaker 1: campaign sounds interesting to you, there are options for that too, Yes,

956
00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 1: there are. I've thought about. I don't want to turn

957
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:14,760
Speaker 1: it into work is a thing, but I thought about

958
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:18,240
Speaker 1: recording our D n D sessions with our office campaign

959
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:22,400
Speaker 1: just because Yeah, they quite interest thought about. Yeah, I've

960
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:27,400
Speaker 1: thought about pitching some kind of RPG podcast, And because

961
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:30,920
Speaker 1: I have had too much other podcast work to do,

962
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:34,920
Speaker 1: that's never been a thing that's come to fruition. I

963
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:38,560
Speaker 1: would be so into that. Um. There's also Contesta, which

964
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 1: is a nonprofit founded in twelve to make the tabletop

965
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:46,920
Speaker 1: gaming space for marginalized folks more diverse and providing a

966
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:50,160
Speaker 1: space for them to run games. So if you're interested

967
00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:52,240
Speaker 1: in running a game, you can check them out and

968
00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:54,200
Speaker 1: getting involved in this at all. They have a lot

969
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:59,120
Speaker 1: of opportunities around that. So I I feel like we're

970
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:03,040
Speaker 1: about at the end of this exploration into tabletop gaming.

971
00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:06,640
Speaker 1: Think so, I think so to wrap things up there,

972
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:09,800
Speaker 1: there's a lot of things going on in the world

973
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:13,520
Speaker 1: of tabletop gaming, and there are clearly areas where the

974
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:16,360
Speaker 1: industry can improve. And it makes me sad that people

975
00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:18,000
Speaker 1: have been turned away from something that can be so

976
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:22,880
Speaker 1: fun and perhaps physically and mentally beneficial because they didn't

977
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:28,480
Speaker 1: feel welcome. So I'm really hoping that that will change,

978
00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:33,480
Speaker 1: and that maybe maybe somebody listening to this who's been

979
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:36,160
Speaker 1: interested in it but hasn't done it for one reason

980
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:39,360
Speaker 1: or the other, maybe this episode has inspired you to

981
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:42,640
Speaker 1: go check it out. Yeah, even if you are not

982
00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:45,360
Speaker 1: really into the idea of going to a gigantic convention

983
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:48,800
Speaker 1: and spending the whole weekend there, a lot of times

984
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:51,880
Speaker 1: the people that actually developed these games are working on

985
00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:55,160
Speaker 1: the dealer's floor at booths like with their games to

986
00:59:55,240 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 1: personally show you how to play, or somebody that they

987
00:59:57,360 --> 00:59:59,440
Speaker 1: know really well is is going to personally show you

988
00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:02,000
Speaker 1: how to game play the game. So at least doing

989
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:04,520
Speaker 1: a walk through and seeing what games are rein played

990
01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:08,240
Speaker 1: and what looks fun can be really awesome. Yeah, because

991
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:11,480
Speaker 1: as we said, there are so many games out there,

992
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:16,240
Speaker 1: all kinds of games that you may be unaware of,

993
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:20,959
Speaker 1: but there are options, options, options, and we will follow

994
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:25,760
Speaker 1: up with an episode about the development aspect of gaming,

995
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:29,919
Speaker 1: so look out for that um in the meantime. Thank

996
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:32,680
Speaker 1: you so much Tracy for joining us. This has been

997
01:00:32,720 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 1: such a lovely conversation. Thank you. I've had a really

998
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:38,880
Speaker 1: good time. Yeah, I really want to play some games.

999
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:44,280
Speaker 1: Now we got to go back to work. The alas,

1000
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:49,320
Speaker 1: Where can people find you? Tracy Well, I co host

1001
01:00:49,560 --> 01:00:52,920
Speaker 1: Stuff You Missed in History Class with Holly Fry and

1002
01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:55,520
Speaker 1: so the easiest way to get me is that the

1003
01:00:55,920 --> 01:00:58,920
Speaker 1: Stuff you miss in History Class email, which is history

1004
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:02,240
Speaker 1: podcast at how stuff Works dot com. And then we're

1005
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:05,960
Speaker 1: all over social media at ms in History. I'm also

1006
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:09,760
Speaker 1: personally on Twitter, but I'm often not looking at my mentions.

1007
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:14,600
Speaker 1: I'm the same. So yeah, sometimes I'll see that somebody

1008
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:17,600
Speaker 1: has said something like asked me a question or said

1009
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:20,440
Speaker 1: something nice, and I'm like, I did not that was

1010
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:23,919
Speaker 1: a week ago. Whoops. Yeah, I really have to build

1011
01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:26,400
Speaker 1: myself up to go on social media. I do. I

1012
01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:28,480
Speaker 1: don't want that to cheer you from contacting me, but

1013
01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:33,040
Speaker 1: it's like a once a week here we go. I

1014
01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:35,200
Speaker 1: spend a lot of time just scrolling to the top

1015
01:01:35,240 --> 01:01:38,120
Speaker 1: of the Twitter feed and being like, what's happening right now? Okay,

1016
01:01:38,120 --> 01:01:44,120
Speaker 1: putting this away right. You can also email this show

1017
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:47,360
Speaker 1: at mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com. You

1018
01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:50,640
Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast and

1019
01:01:50,720 --> 01:01:53,680
Speaker 1: on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks as

1020
01:01:53,680 --> 01:01:56,600
Speaker 1: always to our producer Andrew Howard, and thanks to you

1021
01:01:56,720 --> 01:02:03,680
Speaker 1: for listening to pay to Go on