1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,680 Speaker 1: We are saying inside as we collected intelligence, is that 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: you can lead a policy maker to intelligence, but you 3 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:10,039 Speaker 1: can't make them think I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea. 4 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: I served in the CIA's Clandestine Service for twenty eight years, 5 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,079 Speaker 1: living undercover all around the world. 6 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 2: And in my thirty three years with the CIA, I 7 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 2: served in Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East. 8 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: Although we don't usually look at it this way, we 9 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: created conspiracies in our operations. 10 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 3: We got people to believe things that were true. 11 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: Now we're investigating the conspiracy theories we see in the 12 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:33,200 Speaker 1: news almost every day. 13 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 2: Will break them down for you to determine whether they 14 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 2: could be real or whether we're being manipulated. 15 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: Welcome to Mission Implausible. 16 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 2: Adam Panover is a talented actor, writer intermediate and you're 17 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,560 Speaker 2: now doing You're not doing some stand up specials and Adam, 18 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 2: two of your shows treck really closely with what Mission 19 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 2: Implausible does your deconstruct conspiracy theories and commons misconceptions You've done. 20 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 2: Adam ruins everything by telling the truth about stuff and more. 21 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:08,320 Speaker 2: Dear to Our Hearts The G Word show about what 22 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 2: government the G word actually does and how it operates, 23 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 2: and you did it with some guy called Barack Obama 24 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:18,320 Speaker 2: and his wife Michelle. I'm not really sure. 25 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 4: Just this guy's trying to get started in Hollywood, and 26 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 4: you know I gave him a break by he had 27 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 4: this little idea for a TV show and I helped 28 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 4: him make it. 29 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, before we plunge into this podcast, I think you 30 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 2: really hit the nail on the head when you said 31 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:33,040 Speaker 2: I think it was an interview with The New York Observer. 32 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 2: We said that telling people the truth in your shows 33 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 2: often only ends up annoying them, and I think that's 34 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 2: something that we can It's something that we' we've found 35 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 2: as well, so I guess. So the first question is 36 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,919 Speaker 2: why do you think telling the truth they're talking about 37 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 2: fix why does it annoy people? 38 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 4: Well, I think people construct a comforting reality, mental model 39 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 4: of the world in which to live. Everyone needs to 40 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 4: create a the image of the world where everything operates 41 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 4: according to plan. You know, things are done with intention, 42 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 4: the world is as it should be. Some people feel 43 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 4: the opposite. Some people are conspiracy theorists, and they want 44 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:12,799 Speaker 4: to create an image of the world where everything is 45 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 4: out to get them and it's a sort of nefarious universe, 46 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 4: a clockwork world where every choice was made by some 47 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 4: shadowy figure. But either way, that's a false image of 48 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 4: the world. Right, The world itself is far messier and 49 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 4: more confusing, makes less sense, is not done intentionally, and 50 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 4: that discomforts people to think of the world that way. 51 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 4: It happens to be true, right, that we live in 52 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 4: a chaotic universe where things are not as they should be. 53 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:43,239 Speaker 4: But it's true, you know, and it bothers people either 54 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 4: way if you tell people that we don't live in 55 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 4: a perfectly constructed, benevolent democracy where you know, over the 56 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,079 Speaker 4: past couple decades we've defeated the forces of racism and 57 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 4: corruption and all those sorts of things, which is the 58 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 4: sort of liberal dream that I was brought up being 59 00:02:57,320 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 4: told by my baby boomer parents. And you find it, 60 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 4: actually the world is a much more complicated place. It's 61 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 4: uncomfortable to know that. It's also uncomfortable to find out 62 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 4: that the world is not so full of conspiracy theories. 63 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 4: I was talking to this dude the other day who 64 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 4: was like, he was British. He was like, don't you 65 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 4: think that the puppet masters are all pulling the strings 66 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 4: and calling the shots. We're only doing what they want 67 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 4: us to do, the people at the top. And I 68 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:17,639 Speaker 4: was like, no, I don't think that's true. I don't 69 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 4: think there's a couple of shadowy figures at the top. 70 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:21,799 Speaker 4: I think that there's nations that have leaders and they're 71 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 4: in conflict with each other, and like a lot of 72 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 4: bad things happen for that reason. But it's not the 73 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:28,959 Speaker 4: case that the world is even so orderly that there's 74 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 4: a couple of shadowy figures behind the scenes. That's not 75 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 4: the case. There is no new world order. 76 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 3: And he was up. 77 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 4: He was like, well, well you're talking about When I 78 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 4: said that to him, he like couldn't handle that because 79 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 4: it's a simpler world to think that there's only a 80 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 4: couple of people pulling the strings at the tops. 81 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 2: Even with this British accent, he couldn't win the argument. 82 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 2: Not with me. 83 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 4: I'm tougher than that. 84 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: You've started to explore these things and dig into things, 85 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: and you're a little like John Oliver. You know everything 86 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 1: about everything, a lot of stuff. How is it that 87 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 1: comedians have become the holders of knowledge these Ah, that's true. 88 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 4: I'll tell you the pompous answer, and then the real answer. 89 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 4: I do think that comedy is intimately related with the truth. 90 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 4: My personal theory about why people laugh is it's when 91 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 4: a surprise is combined with the truth. Even Slapstick has 92 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 4: that right if someone reacts in a surprising way, but 93 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 4: a way that sort of makes physical sense at the 94 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 4: same time when the three stooges are slapping each other. 95 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 4: But also you might when you hear a good joke, 96 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 4: like a really good stand up comedy joke, you laugh 97 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 4: and go, oh, that's true. I never thought of that, 98 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 4: But I also have known that my whole life right, 99 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 4: and comedy is a way of cutting to the truth 100 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 4: in a way that is faster and more direct and 101 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 4: a little blunter and hits people a little bit harder 102 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 4: than just explaining it to them. That's the pompous reason. 103 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 4: I think the actual reason is that people are bored 104 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:48,280 Speaker 4: giving them Giving them a little bit of giving them 105 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:50,479 Speaker 4: a little bit of spice with their information helps it 106 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 4: go down more easily. So I think, honestly, the trend 107 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 4: that you're talking about is not necessarily a good one, 108 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 4: because there's a lot of comedians out there who spread 109 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,119 Speaker 4: a lot of bullshit. If you don't mind me swearing 110 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 4: on the show but I try to be the kind 111 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 4: of comedian who brings people true information with the power 112 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 4: of comedy. 113 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 2: Unlike most people, You've delved into our you know, John 114 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,280 Speaker 2: and I as former CAA officers. You delved into our 115 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 2: former world, and you've done it with President Obama. And 116 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 2: what are some of the things that you've found out? 117 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 2: And as a comedian, what are some of your takes 118 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 2: on it? 119 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 4: Well, you know you were was a sixth part series. 120 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 4: Each explores a different area of American life and how 121 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 4: the government affects it. We do weather, we do food, 122 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:33,840 Speaker 4: we do money, things like that. And by the way, 123 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 4: it is some amazing things. We went up with the Noah's, 124 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 4: the National Isceanic and Atmospheric Agency, I think went up 125 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 4: with them with the hurricane hunters as they flew into hurricanes, 126 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 4: as we flew into a hurricane together. Really incredible. And 127 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 4: we went to see how the people at the FD 128 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 4: I see how they take over a bank in the 129 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 4: middle of the night when the bank fails, not in 130 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 4: the middle of the night, but a sort of somewhat 131 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 4: clandestine manner. They do so very secretly. And we also 132 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 4: talked about ways in which the federal government has hurt 133 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,359 Speaker 4: people deficiencies. In the COVID response, we talked about the 134 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 4: rise of drone warfare, for example. That was in an 135 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 4: episode about how the federal government has actually created so 136 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 4: many of our amazing technological advancements by government research and 137 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 4: development or by funding research and development, but has also 138 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 4: led They did it all for the purposes of war. 139 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:19,919 Speaker 4: That's why the government does it. That's why the government 140 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 4: invests so much money into DARPA and agencies like that 141 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 4: that are doing weapons research, and that's why we have 142 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 4: the Internet. It's also why we have the drone warfare 143 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 4: that's killed so many innocent people that the United States 144 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:35,119 Speaker 4: government has killed many innocent civilians unjustly around the world. 145 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 4: And I think one of my biggest takeaways is that 146 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 4: the federal government resists easy classification. People want to say, oh, 147 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,119 Speaker 4: is it good or is it bad? The United States 148 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 4: Government is the largest single organization of any kind on 149 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 4: planet Earth outside of like the Catholic Church depending on 150 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 4: how you count, but by most measures, it's the United 151 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 4: States federal government. And so you cannot say that it 152 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 4: is all good or all bad, because you cannot say 153 00:06:57,640 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 4: that the American people are all good or all bad, 154 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 4: or that an institution is all good or all bad. 155 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:07,479 Speaker 4: It does many incredibly important things, some of them extraordinarily destructive, right, 156 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 4: and some of them an incredibly beneficial And so I 157 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 4: think as a takeaway that makes you a what makes 158 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 4: me want to resist people who want to kick down 159 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 4: sand castles? The sort of approach where you know, Rick 160 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 4: Perry comes in and says, if you remember when he 161 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 4: ran for president in twenty twelve or sixteen, I forget 162 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 4: which year it was, but he says, I'm going to 163 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 4: eliminate three federal I'm going to eliminate the Department of Education, 164 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 4: Department of Energy in one other one and he forgot 165 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 4: which were the three? That was his big gat What 166 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 4: was the third one? I forgot? He said, I want 167 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 4: to eliminate the Department of Energy. Well, guess what. Under 168 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 4: Donald Trump, he was running the Department of Energy. And 169 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 4: I'm pretty sure that once he figured out what the 170 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 4: Department of Energy did, he didn't want to eliminate it anymore. 171 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 4: Because the Department of Energy is in charge of our 172 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 4: nuclear stockpile, of our nuclear weapons stockpile, and also does 173 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 4: some of the most important high energy physics work that 174 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 4: is being done anywhere in the world. And he probably 175 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:02,239 Speaker 4: realized that pretty quick when he had his first briefing. 176 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 4: And so what was he speaking out of when he 177 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:07,239 Speaker 4: said he wanted to eliminate the department Pure ignorance, right, 178 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 4: And my goal is to dispel some of that ignorance. 179 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 4: Then we should also dispel ignorance about the bad things 180 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 4: that the government does and not allow ourselves to be 181 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 4: blinded to it and be, oh, everything is so great 182 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 4: with our American system of government, because it plainly isn't 183 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 4: what you. 184 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: Just talked about. There is. The governmance is a complex, 185 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: massive thing. It's not just good or not just bad, 186 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: but there's become a narrative out there. But that sense 187 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: of trust in government, there's all sorts of things behind it. 188 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: But essentially, you know, when Nixon left government, that sort 189 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: of trust that sort of was there among the American 190 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: people in general with their government really went away. And 191 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: then when President Reagan came in, he ran on the 192 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: fact that the government is the enemy, and the sort 193 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: of more right wing Republicans have been in charge running 194 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: on that ever since. And I think nowadays you ask 195 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: most people, they tend to think negatively about their government, 196 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: and they don't have any sense of just how integral 197 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: it is to their life. 198 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 4: And as you say, it's a very maligned part of 199 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 4: American life and one that most people are I think 200 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 4: deliberately ignorant about. People don't want to know about it. 201 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 4: It's boring, and we don't valorize the people who work 202 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:16,439 Speaker 4: for the government the same way we do the people 203 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 4: who work for the tech industry. Right the United States 204 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 4: government doesn't do a good job of telling it story, 205 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 4: and so people like the hurricane hunters or the FDIC. 206 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 4: There are so many people who work for the federal 207 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 4: government who they are mission driven. I was up with 208 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 4: those hurricane hunters, you know what I mean. They could 209 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 4: have been commercial jet pilots that could have been flying 210 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 4: private jets making a lot of money. But these guys 211 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 4: are They work for the military and they fly into 212 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 4: hurricanes almost every day during hurricane season, and they do 213 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:46,199 Speaker 4: it because they want to protect people. And they also 214 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 4: feel like hot shots. I'm sure there's some machismo two 215 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 4: it's fun, but that's why they do it. People at 216 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 4: the FDIC really care about their mission, So why have 217 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 4: we lost that trust in them? I Mean, nobody was 218 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 4: feeling that great about the government in nineteen ten or 219 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 4: nineteen twenty, but the Great Depression nine destroys American life. Yeah, 220 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 4: nineteen twenty nine, exactly. There are all these bad periods 221 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 4: in the United States. Government was pretty fucked up in 222 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 4: the nineteenth century. People were not happy about it, and 223 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:14,680 Speaker 4: the government was like very ineffectual and small. What happens 224 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 4: the capitalists take over the economy and crash it right 225 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 4: in the Great Depression. What happens next? FDR comes along 226 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 4: and rebuilds American society through the might of the American government, right, 227 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 4: puts people back to work, literally says the government's going 228 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 4: to pay you to dig ditches and build highways and 229 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 4: stuff like that. What happens next? World War Two, the 230 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 4: biggest crisis in the world, and the United States wins, 231 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 4: and wins by investing massively more money, so many Americans 232 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:44,199 Speaker 4: were employed, went off to war in this great victory, 233 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 4: this great collective struggle that we won. Oh my god, incredible. 234 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 4: And of course people feel at that point, yes, the 235 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 4: government is doing the right thing. And if you look 236 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 4: at the series of presidents at that time, from FDR 237 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 4: through Nixon, hey, they're all pretty good presidents. Like they 238 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 4: got their problems, but they're you know, they're true statesman. Nixon, 239 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:07,319 Speaker 4: of course, incredibly corrupt individual. And also Nixon starts starts 240 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 4: specifically trying There's a wonderful book called nixon Land by 241 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:14,839 Speaker 4: the historian Rick Pearlsteine about this. It's an incredible book. 242 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 4: He is the first president who starts trying to divide 243 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 4: Americans politically as a political strategy, tries to turn white 244 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 4: Americans against black Americans, older Americans against younger Americans. 245 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: The Southern strategy. 246 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 4: The Southern strategy, yes, exactly, and it's one of dividing people. 247 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 4: It's saying, we are going to turn people against each other. 248 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 4: And that's the beginning of our current politics. As Parstin argues, 249 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 4: Reagan then supercharges that Nixon just got it started. Reagan 250 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 4: does that to create an entirely new political regime, and 251 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 4: it's an anti government political regime. And that came out 252 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 4: of both Nixonian sort of racial grievance, and then also 253 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 4: big businesses saying hey, we want to lower our taxes, 254 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 4: or rich people saying we want to lower our taxes. 255 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 4: We don't like these World War two year at tax rates. 256 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 4: They had a multi decade camp paying to spread propaganda 257 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,679 Speaker 4: and reduce faith in the federal government. And we've all 258 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 4: been living in that world ever since. And then even 259 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 4: Obama many administrations later, he was trying to pull the 260 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 4: lever back in the other direction. He was trying to 261 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 4: increase faith in federal government and do government programs again. 262 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 4: But he's still living in this world in which people 263 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,599 Speaker 4: have this huge skepticism. So when it comes to the 264 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 4: Affordable Care Act, for instance, his big initiative, he's not 265 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 4: able to get the ball across the finish line in 266 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 4: terms of having a true government sponsored healthcare program, which 267 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 4: would have been cheaper and would have worked better. He 268 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:33,439 Speaker 4: has to do this sort of public private partnership which 269 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 4: only half works, and people are like, ah, is it good? 270 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 3: Is it? 271 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,199 Speaker 4: My insurance is still crappy. I use this government marketplace. 272 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 4: It's a little bit better, but it's not that much better, 273 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 4: et cetera. So we're stuck in this middle ground where 274 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 4: we don't trust the government entirely, We don't let it 275 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 4: do its job. We undermine it as we attempt to 276 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 4: have it do things. And a lot of that undermining 277 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,079 Speaker 4: is purposeful by people who are ideological and want to 278 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 4: destroy it or want it to be smaller so they 279 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 4: don't have to pay for it, and as a result, 280 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 4: people don't feel positively about it. The average person when 281 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 4: they try to go to their health insurance marketplace here 282 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 4: in California, they're like, it's a little too confusing, it's 283 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:12,680 Speaker 4: a little too expensive, and so they have a bad 284 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 4: experience with it, and then their trust for with it 285 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 4: goes down. So it's a combination of that free floating 286 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 4: cynicism that Reagan really got started. Ah, there are all 287 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 4: just a bunch of crooks up there, combined with a 288 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 4: sort of bad experience of it. Now, it's not across 289 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 4: the board right if you look at for instance, people 290 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 4: do love the National Weather Service once they know what 291 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 4: it does. People love the Post Office, people love NASA, 292 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 4: they love the military. There's a lot of love for 293 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 4: the federal government still out. 294 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: Three out of four, though the publicans are trying to 295 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 1: privatize exactly right. 296 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 4: The guy who runs Acuweather has been I believe his 297 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:49,680 Speaker 4: name is Barry Myers, has spent the last thirty years 298 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 4: trying to prevent the National Weather Service from communicating with 299 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 4: the public when the weather when every I love talking 300 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 4: about this, every single weather prediction that you ever see 301 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 4: starts with the National Weather sce Service. When the local 302 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 4: newsance we've got Doppler ten thousand, that's bullshit. They do 303 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 4: not have any special technology. What they do is they 304 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 4: take the government weather predictions that you are paying for 305 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 4: that has some of the most the best meteorologists in 306 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 4: the world working for the National Weather Service. We have 307 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 4: weather stations all over the country, et cetera. We've got 308 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 4: literal people flying planes into hurricanes every single day. We 309 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 4: have satellites they have. The government is bruising that prediction, 310 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 4: and then your local weather person takes that prediction. They 311 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 4: put their own little special spice on top. They take 312 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 4: a look at the maps themselves and adjust it and 313 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 4: then say, here's what I think is going to happen 314 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 4: in your area. But it's coming from the government. And 315 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 4: but what are people like Barry Myers from Mackyweather want 316 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 4: to do. They want to prevent the They want to 317 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 4: protect prevent the government from communicating with you directly so 318 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 4: that they are the only ones who get the data. 319 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 4: And then they want to make you pay them to 320 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 4: get it, even though you've already paid for it. So 321 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 4: I compare it to somebody who is on the show. 322 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 4: We use the metaphor of somebody bottling government tap water, 323 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 4: bottling city tap water and trying to sell it to 324 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 4: you and prevent you from getting it directly. 325 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 3: More of this after a quick break, and we're back. 326 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: It is now the fiftieth anniversary of Robert Carroll's The 327 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: Power Broker, which is a famous book about Robert Moses' 328 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: important figure book Yeah in New York City. And one 329 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: of the things that Robert Carroll does very well is 330 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: talks about what life was like before, and he talks 331 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: a lot about what the government was like in the 332 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: late nineteenth century earliest twentieth century. And it was essentially 333 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: the spoils system. It wasn't based on law, it wasn't 334 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: based on regulations. It was politicians handing out jobs, people 335 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 1: having to give money to get things done. 336 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 2: And it was the good. 337 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: Government effort by reformers to try to create a system 338 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: that created professional civil servants that would be trained in 339 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: their job. They just given free jobs for free money. 340 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: And we forget about that. And how over the years 341 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: as that's moved on, and there's been more and more 342 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: reforms and more and more regulations and laws put behind it. 343 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: One of the great gems of this country is a 344 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: professional civil service and public servants who do, for the 345 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: most part, incredible work. And we lionize the military, but 346 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: there's lots of professionals that work in national security and 347 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: in other places that take their jobs just as seriously 348 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: and are just as professional. 349 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's a shame that we are not that 350 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 4: we don't lionize them more. Because one of the problems 351 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 4: that the government has is brain drain, because we do 352 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 4: not promote what these folks are doing. Or there's the 353 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 4: ads for joining the Air Force and you know, travel 354 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 4: the world, but we don't say the same thing about 355 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 4: the FDIC or Noah or all of our various government departments. 356 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 4: Are the USDA, which changes lives. You know, we have 357 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 4: the revolving door problem where people leave the government service 358 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 4: and then they go straight to corporations, and the corporations 359 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 4: employ them because they want to know how to better 360 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 4: cheat the government or screw the government. I have friends 361 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 4: who have gone that path, and I'm disappointed in them, 362 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:05,880 Speaker 4: but I also understand they need the money. And part 363 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,360 Speaker 4: of that is because government works and it doesn't pay 364 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 4: well enough. Because we've had leaders who for the past 365 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 4: couple decades have had a specific strategy of starving the 366 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 4: federal government. It creates a it's a vicious cycle. 367 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 3: Right. 368 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 4: If you denigrate the people doing the work, then you 369 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:20,880 Speaker 4: don't get as good people, which means the work is worse, 370 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 4: which means you denigrate them more and make fun of 371 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:24,679 Speaker 4: them more. Everyone's had the experience of going to the 372 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 4: post office and having a bad experience, right, and say, 373 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 4: I had to wait so long in the line, and 374 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 4: everything on the post office sucks. Everyone also knows that 375 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 4: the post office is the only place that delivers everywhere 376 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 4: in the country. You could have a community of three 377 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:38,439 Speaker 4: people in the mountains and they have to have a 378 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 4: post office there because of federal law. And everyone knows. 379 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 4: I think the American public wants a healthier postal service, right, 380 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 4: because that's one that we touch every day. We also 381 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 4: want a healthier government in all respects. 382 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 2: And you're a comedian, and Ronald Reagan wasn't, but he 383 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,199 Speaker 2: had the stick that he did where it was a 384 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 2: joke where he says, I'm from the government and I'm 385 00:17:58,000 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 2: here to help. 386 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 4: The scariest words in the English language. 387 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:04,200 Speaker 2: You said, Yeah, I remember talking to my dad about 388 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 2: some of the things that you mentioned. It was, where 389 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 2: did the highways come from the post office? The military? Right, 390 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 2: we have policemen who don't pull you over like in 391 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 2: Mexico or in Africa where they're looking for a bribe, right, 392 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:19,160 Speaker 2: Or you don't have judges that are taking money under 393 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 2: the table. I don't know. I thought the government isn't 394 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 2: doing so bad. And in my youth, I'd lived in 395 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 2: places like India, and you know, I'd been to Iran 396 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:32,400 Speaker 2: and syst places where Africa where there really is corruption. 397 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:37,120 Speaker 2: And I got the feeling that this was a conspiracy 398 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 2: theory that to paint or at least an alternate myth, 399 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 2: to paint the federal government in a bad way that 400 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 2: they're all corrupt somehow, and yet playing out most recently 401 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 2: in North Carolina where FEMA is coming in to help 402 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 2: people as best they can, and rumors are being spread 403 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 2: that they need to be hunted down. People will be 404 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,040 Speaker 2: better rested doing that. And I was wondering if you 405 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,199 Speaker 2: could comment on your journey from where you thought the 406 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 2: government was and now that you've looked into it and 407 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:08,880 Speaker 2: you've met with some of us, but what's your senses 408 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 2: of where you are now? With what the government can 409 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:12,199 Speaker 2: and can't do. 410 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,159 Speaker 4: I've never been a real conspiracy theory type person, and 411 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 4: I've never been that cynical. I've always tried to be 412 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 4: clear eyed about here's what's good and here's what's bad. 413 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 4: I've always liked groups that are like, genuinely trying to 414 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 4: help people. I've always've always been the kind of guy 415 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,199 Speaker 4: who loves my public library, you know what I mean. 416 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 4: And the government has a lot of that in it. 417 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:30,880 Speaker 4: These are the people who are just trying to help. 418 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 4: At the same time, I think we need to be 419 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 4: clear eyed about how the government hurts people. Foreign policy wise, 420 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 4: the US government has primarily been a disaster throughout the 421 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:42,400 Speaker 4: rest of the world. I understand why in some other 422 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 4: countries people go, oh, fuck the US government. Look at 423 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 4: what they did in my country, and you got to go, yeah, 424 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 4: I can't argue with that. People died, right, cities were destroyed, 425 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 4: et cetera. And there are people in the United States 426 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 4: who feel similarly about the federal government that like a 427 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 4: freeway was put through my neighborhood and everyone was forced 428 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 4: to leave, or look at different ways that different communities 429 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 4: received care. During COVID nineteen, it was sure, seemed like 430 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,120 Speaker 4: we had a great government response here where I live 431 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 4: as a white guy in Los Angeles. But we went 432 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:14,879 Speaker 4: to a largely black rural community in Alabama and the 433 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,160 Speaker 4: federal government was nowhere to be seen. There was one 434 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:19,920 Speaker 4: doctor in the entire county that we visited, and he 435 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 4: was employed by the federal government. But the's one guy 436 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:25,400 Speaker 4: treating thousands of people trying to get them all their vaccinations. 437 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 4: And this county as a result, had the highest COVID 438 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 4: rates in the nation at one point because they did 439 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 4: not have the full court press that communities might like. 440 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 2: Mind. 441 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 4: God, you know, there's conspiracy theories and cynicism, and then 442 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 4: there is having to acknowledge when things can actually be 443 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,400 Speaker 4: better and when the government has made mistakes. 444 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:49,719 Speaker 1: So in your show, obviously you were working with the 445 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: Obama's as producers, and we served under Obama and under 446 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 1: many other presidents too, and there was some concerns, like 447 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: you said about droll and warfare and all these other 448 00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:59,439 Speaker 1: kind of things and terrorism issues. 449 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 2: Is right? 450 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: Are there are there areas that you'd like to talk 451 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: about that have to do with a security that we 452 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 1: might have some insight on. 453 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, Oh good, that's a good question. We worked our 454 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 4: hardest to make sure that we did not steer clear 455 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 4: of areas because of the Obama's involvement. You know, we 456 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 4: talked about the rise of drone warfare during the Obama 457 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 4: administration and the number of civilians killed in that program 458 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,159 Speaker 4: and how in my view that's that's a mistake. He 459 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 4: and his administration will give you their reason of this 460 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,439 Speaker 4: allows them to avoid setting America soldiers into battle and 461 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 4: results in less loss of life overall, and it's targeted, 462 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 4: et cetera, et cetera. There is a rationale given. I 463 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:38,880 Speaker 4: disagree with it, and you know we had to fight 464 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 4: tooth and nail to get that on because not him himself, 465 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 4: but folks who work in the organization are like, should 466 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 4: we really be talking about this? And I just say, guys, 467 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 4: people aren't going to take the show seriously if we don't, 468 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 4: if we don't cover these topics. When we did the 469 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 4: show with the Obama's what's the number one thing people 470 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:56,439 Speaker 4: think we won't be able to do, it's talk about drones. 471 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 4: And we did an episode that we left on the 472 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 4: cut ding room floor, and it wasn't because it was 473 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 4: too controversial. It was just we had a little bit 474 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 4: of trouble. It was such a complex topic that we 475 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:09,400 Speaker 4: had a little bit of trouble getting the script to work, 476 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 4: and we decided to go with a different one. But 477 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 4: it was about American power. It was the episode was 478 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:18,919 Speaker 4: called Power, and we were talking about the power grid 479 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 4: and also nuclear power. Right, how the government is in 480 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,959 Speaker 4: charge of controlling the nuclear waste that comes from nuclear 481 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 4: power plants. Right, But the government, the same department, the 482 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 4: Department of Energy, is also in charge of our nuclear 483 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 4: weapons stockpile. And that stockpile gives us enormous power in 484 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:37,639 Speaker 4: the world and allows us to do whatever we want 485 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 4: in the world in a way that other countries are 486 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 4: not able to. And for instance, we were going to 487 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,159 Speaker 4: talk about how on the Marshall Islands, which is a 488 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 4: little island chain that's like what it's I believe it's 489 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 4: a it's a separate nation, but it's like under the 490 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 4: US umbrella a little bit. There's like an enormous stockpile 491 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 4: of US nuclear waste from atomic bomb tests that stored there, 492 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 4: and the people there are like, why the hell is 493 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 4: this on our island? Like it's making people sick and stuff, 494 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 4: and it's like, yeah, we can put it there because 495 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,640 Speaker 4: we're America. We could do whatever we want. You guys 496 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 4: are in foreign intelligence. How do you see American power operating? 497 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 4: How do you think about that? 498 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: We are saying inside as we collected intelligence, is that 499 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: you can lead a policy maker to intelligence, but you 500 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 1: can't make him think. So there are times when policymakers 501 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: get to make decisions, whether we agree with them or not. 502 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 1: I think the invasion of I Rock was obviously a 503 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:29,160 Speaker 1: disaster for this country that has ramifications even today. Now 504 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:30,919 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that I think the people who are 505 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 1: involved in trying to follow through and do some of 506 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,920 Speaker 1: those things didn't do serious work or good work, and 507 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: as well as some bad work. But I gotta be 508 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,160 Speaker 1: a little careful here on the drone thing, because it's 509 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 1: still very sensitive the CIA's role in those type of things. 510 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: But I saw some of what I saw was in fact, 511 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 1: incredibly focused. There is a narrative out there that other governments, 512 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: for their own purposes, have put that we've killed a 513 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 1: lot of civilians with drones, and I didn't see it. 514 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 1: I'm telling you there's times where I know specific what happened, 515 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: that the right horrible terrorist was killed and the next 516 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 1: day it was in the papers and spread through and 517 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: followed up with then Joe said, oh, all these people 518 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 1: were killed and it was terrible, and the places where 519 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:13,439 Speaker 1: this happened had an interest in making it look like 520 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: those are happening. No, that doesn't mean there weren't mistakes, 521 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:19,199 Speaker 1: but in general, there is a view out there that 522 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,879 Speaker 1: civilians were killed a lot in these type of things, 523 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: and I didn't see it, but I can't go too 524 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 1: deep into that. 525 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 4: Obviously, that's fascinating to know. 526 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, so John and I were both chiefs of station, 527 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 2: which means that the countries that we were in they 528 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 2: knew exactly who we were. We would liaise with that, 529 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,399 Speaker 2: we would work with them and their intelligence services, sometimes friendly, 530 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 2: sometimes less friendly. But I got to tell you, at 531 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,399 Speaker 2: no point do we walk in and everybody goes, WHOA, 532 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 2: this is the powerful Americans. They're mostly like you get 533 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 2: a lot of fuck us. And like if you think 534 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 2: the Germans of the French are like, oh the Americans 535 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 2: are here, it's oh the Americans are here. Let's see 536 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 2: what we can manipulate them into doing for us. So 537 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 2: I like I served in Zimbabwe. Zimbabweans know who exactly 538 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 2: who I was, and a lot of that time. When 539 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 2: I was in Zimbabwe, I found myself defending from the 540 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 2: Zimbabwean government officials talking lot is there, like, we know 541 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 2: you guys created AIDS. That was a conspiracy theory operation 542 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:17,880 Speaker 2: at Fecsion. We know all about it now put out 543 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 2: by the Soviets, right, and it costs hundreds of thousands, 544 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 2: if not millions of African lives because they were basically 545 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,640 Speaker 2: saying there's nothing you can do about it, don't protect yourself. 546 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 2: And you talk about power when you're on the inside, 547 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 2: it's a whole lot more complex. 548 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 4: But I do think that there is a power and 549 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:38,679 Speaker 4: balance between the countries that results in the US calling 550 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 4: the shots in the world, and in a way that 551 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 4: was not always beneficial. And by the way, if you 552 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,199 Speaker 4: look at the instability in our government, imagine if your 553 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 4: angela Merkel or another person who's just part of the 554 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 4: liberal order right that is running the world, and then 555 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 4: one day you wake up and your counterpart is Donald Trump, 556 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,360 Speaker 4: and you're like, hold on a second. The most important, 557 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,040 Speaker 4: the most powerful country in the world also had a 558 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 4: political system that can lead to this outcome. Having that 559 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 4: much power can be a bad thing because when the 560 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 4: wrong person gets in and it gets the keys. That's 561 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 4: bad for the world. 562 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,680 Speaker 2: Early when after he was elected, President Trump tweets that 563 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,400 Speaker 2: the Germans, he doesn't like the Germans very much. He 564 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 2: accuses them of manipulating their currency so that they can 565 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:24,120 Speaker 2: export more to improve their economy at others expenses. And 566 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 2: so this led to a comedy of errors inside of 567 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 2: the German government and they finally came to the US 568 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 2: side and said, look, we know that Donald Trump understands 569 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 2: that we don't have a currency, right, I mean the 570 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 2: currency the Euro is the rules and regulations are all 571 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 2: made in Brussels. We have the same currency as the 572 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 2: Greeks do. We can't manipulate our currency to help our 573 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,920 Speaker 2: export because we don't controul Because it was just beyond 574 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,919 Speaker 2: them that like Donald Trump didn't realize that the Germans 575 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,119 Speaker 2: don't have the mark anymore and have it for for 576 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 2: the last ten years. And I think it's since dawned 577 00:26:58,760 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 2: on them that no. 578 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, And that's a real dynamic by the way, throughout 579 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 4: the federal government that you've got the electeds and then 580 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,239 Speaker 4: you've got the political appointees they put in, and then 581 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 4: you have the career civil servants for INDs of the FDICE. 582 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,920 Speaker 4: I keep bringing up some of the smartest, most committed people. 583 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 4: These are the people who keep your money safe in 584 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 4: the bank, right, These are some of the best experts 585 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 4: and most competent people I've ever met in my life. 586 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 4: You need to trust those civil servants to know what 587 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 4: they're doing. And when Trump us talking about the deep state, 588 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 4: that's what he was really talking about, was like civil 589 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 4: servants who actually give a shit about their jobs and 590 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 4: are paying attention. And yeah, I think again, conspiracy theories 591 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,400 Speaker 4: come out as a result. But I think the truth 592 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,360 Speaker 4: is a lot of times people are just ignorant or stupid, 593 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 4: or incompetent or lazy, because that's what people are. That's 594 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:46,160 Speaker 4: what humanity is as a whole. 595 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:46,400 Speaker 3: Right. 596 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,680 Speaker 4: We have as much ignorance and stupidity and laziness as 597 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 4: we do bravery and intelligence and determination. 598 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 1: Sometimes bravery intelligence, these things are still not enough. The 599 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: world is so complex. 600 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 3: We'll be right back in OVID. All right, let's get 601 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 3: back into it one. 602 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 2: This is a bit sound, but on as a civil servant, 603 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 2: John and I both were in the Agency. I voted 604 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 2: against George Bush and yet when the Iraq War started, 605 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 2: I volunteered to go. And I spent over a year 606 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:25,880 Speaker 2: and a half of my life in Iraq, and I've 607 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 2: had friends killed there, and so you know, this isn't 608 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 2: something that I supported or started, at least I didn't 609 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:35,439 Speaker 2: not once I realized that there were no weapons of 610 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 2: mass destruction supported or stut And yet I'm the one 611 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 2: who paid the price. We take the hit often for 612 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 2: bad policies of our politicians who actually look with mails 613 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 2: of forthought to shove their bad policy outcomes into our shoes. 614 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 4: Absolutely. And look, there's also people in the federal government, 615 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 4: by the way, who are just collecting a paycheck and 616 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 4: or maybe seventy five percent as good an employee as 617 00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 4: the person next to them. But that's humanity. And guess what, 618 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 4: they also deserve to slack off a little bit and 619 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 4: collect a paycheck, just like we all do some days. 620 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 4: But as a whole, the civil services, like my experience was, 621 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 4: it's full of these incredible people who really give a 622 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 4: shit about their jobs and about making the country work. 623 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 4: And yeah, the problem, when there is one, usually starts 624 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 4: at the top. It certainly did with the Iraq War 625 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 4: and the Vietnam War as well. 626 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 2: To be quite honest for your next episode. 627 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: If you want, I can give you a list of 628 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: slackers in the government if you want. 629 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 4: Oh, that would be great again. I think people should 630 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 4: be allowed to slack off. I think that's part of 631 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 4: human life. A real memory of mine, and this maybe 632 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 4: really informed my perspective on this. I was on the subway. 633 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 4: I lived in New York City at the time. I 634 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 4: was on the subway. They say, hey, everybody, the train 635 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 4: is canceled. You all got to get off the train, 636 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 4: like we're shutting down this line. And I got off 637 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 4: the train. Everyone's so mad, and we all get in cabs. 638 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 4: And I get in a cab with this guy because 639 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 4: we're going in the same direction, and he goes The 640 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 4: MTA is so screwed up. They're just sitting around giving 641 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 4: each other pay raises over there. And I didn't arg 642 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 4: you with the guy because I don't want to argue 643 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 4: with the real New Yorker, you know, in the back 644 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 4: of a cab. He was really pissed off because he 645 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 4: was late for work. But I was reading Robert Carrow's book, right, 646 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 4: and I know that the reason the MTA has trouble 647 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 4: is it was created by the government and the Mayor 648 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 4: of New York City as a way to separate themselves 649 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 4: from responsibility because they didn't want to have to raise 650 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 4: fares or take the blame. So the MTA was literally 651 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 4: created as like a whipping boy for the New York 652 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 4: City Mayor and the government of New York. And then 653 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 4: they spent the next fifty years starving it of money, 654 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 4: right saying, we're not going to give you enough money 655 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 4: to fix the trains, to improve service, to build new 656 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 4: train lines, God forbid, or any of those things. And 657 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,239 Speaker 4: that's what happened, right the electives. The public doesn't want 658 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 4: to spend the money, and the electors don't want to 659 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 4: take responsibility, so they create this agency called the MTA 660 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 4: that everyone just you know, takes a crap on all 661 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 4: the time. And this guy's been reading the New York 662 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 4: Post his whole life and he's gotten that perspective. Oh, 663 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 4: it's the MTA. It's the people who work there. They're 664 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 4: just sitting around giving each other pay raised and instead 665 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 4: of getting work done, I'd say, number one, what do 666 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:04,960 Speaker 4: you do at your job, sir? You said, trying to 667 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:06,479 Speaker 4: figure out how to do less work, how to get 668 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 4: a raise. That's a human condition. Right, But why does 669 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,479 Speaker 4: the MTA specifically have problems. It's because the people in 670 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 4: charge of the city and the state we were being 671 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,719 Speaker 4: cowardly and venal and trying to preserve their own skins 672 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 4: rather than actually make the subway work better. 673 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 2: So I'm not a fan boy of any politician, but 674 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 2: I thought a lot of Barack Obama. 675 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 3: Right. 676 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 2: I didn't agree with him everywhere, but I thought he 677 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 2: was a guy who had some basic integrity. But I 678 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 2: did want to ask, what is it like working with 679 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 2: somebody who is, you know, an icon and that people 680 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 2: have strong opinions about one way or another, and somebody 681 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 2: like yourself who's clearly a comedian and iconic class What 682 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 2: was it like working with the Obamas to the extent 683 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 2: you you know, you're willing to talk about great question. 684 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm happy to. First of all, he I think 685 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 4: really interestingly lives his life as though he's still president. 686 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 4: So when we had to get him a script, it's like, Okay, 687 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 4: that script has to be in by so and so 688 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 4: on Friday, because it's got to go in his weekend 689 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 4: briefing book, because he gets a briefing book every weekend. 690 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 4: And that's like what the president gets right. The president 691 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 4: gets a briefing book where all his staffers put in 692 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 4: a document that he has to read, and you know 693 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:19,320 Speaker 4: he's going to set it's the same time to read this, 694 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 4: and so I was like, dude, you're not president anymore. 695 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 4: You don't have to have a briefing book. You know, 696 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 4: George Bush is just sitting around making paintings. And they 697 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 4: gave us our room to work. You know, we had 698 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 4: to fight sometimes to do our drones segment or to 699 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 4: do some other segments. We were also critical about the 700 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 4: origin of the Affordable Care Act, which on balance is 701 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 4: a good act, but was still a compromise with the 702 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 4: anti government forces who don't want the government to actually 703 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 4: put in place a program. Was less than it could 704 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 4: have been because it had to compromise with the Reagan 705 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 4: era ideologues. When it came to him appearing on the show, 706 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 4: I wrote a comedy scene for us to be in together. 707 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 4: He's incredibly funny. He has no right to be that funny. 708 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 4: It annoys me professionally as a comedian that he's as 709 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 4: funny as he is. We started the show with a 710 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 4: comedy scene with the two of us. We ended it 711 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 4: with me and him having a long form conversation about 712 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 4: the government and how people should feel about it and 713 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 4: the possibility for change, right because I experienced when he 714 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 4: entered office in two thousand and eight, I was in 715 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 4: my twenties, We're going to have change. By the time 716 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 4: he left, I think a lot of us were thinking 717 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 4: where was that change? 718 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 3: And I have. 719 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 4: Complex feelings about that, and I was able to have 720 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 4: a really substantive, long form conversation with him, and that 721 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 4: was one of certainly one of the highlights of my career. 722 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 2: You've got another project, factually, why don't you? Why do 723 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 2: you tell us about that a little bit? 724 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 4: Yes, it's a long form interview podcast I do. I 725 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 4: talked to experts and fascinating people from around the world 726 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 4: of human knowledge speaking of the government. We've had the 727 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 4: chair of the FTC, Lena Khannon. We've had a dot 728 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 4: had Pete Boudaje John, We've had local politicians here in 729 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 4: Los Angeles on to talk about the work that they do. 730 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 4: We have journalists, we have scholars, academics, anybody who knows 731 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,719 Speaker 4: something fascinating that the public doesn't know that I don't know. 732 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 4: And you can catch that out you guess that on YouTube. 733 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 4: Tube on YouTube and wherever you get your podcast. It's 734 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 4: called Factually Jeremy Cia. Guys, here's my question for you, 735 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 4: as too spies. I used to read a lot of 736 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,480 Speaker 4: John la Coray novels, but I was always like, this 737 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:13,879 Speaker 4: is a fantasy, right, But do you ever read any 738 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 4: book like that and go, okay, wait, that one actually 739 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 4: happened to me. 740 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,279 Speaker 1: John McCarey is probably one of the ones that we 741 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 1: that worked in the Clandestine Service, the spy side of 742 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: the agency, most trust and follow because it's about the 743 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 1: human relationships rather than many of the movies and shows 744 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,319 Speaker 1: are about sort of action and shooting and stuff like that. 745 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 1: For the most part, we weren't carrying guns, we weren't 746 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 1: involved in shootouts. We were trying to develop relationships with 747 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: people and build trust in an area where there's potential betrayal. 748 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 2: And what we did human intelligence is about, at its core, 749 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 2: two people sitting down and telling each other the truth. 750 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 2: So you know, you get someone from an authoritarian government 751 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 2: and they look over both their shoulders and they say, 752 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 2: I can't live like this anymore. I need to tell 753 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,359 Speaker 2: you the truth. This is what's really going on. I 754 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 2: love my country, but my government murders, people, murders us 755 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 2: and I just can't do this anymore. And for whatever reasons, 756 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 2: love hey, And it's always a cocktail of reasons. They've 757 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 2: opted to sit down and talk to someone from the agency, 758 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 2: and we talked about power earlier. I think mostly their 759 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 2: hope is that we can do something about it. When 760 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,400 Speaker 2: an Iranian nuclear scientist sits down and says, we're building 761 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,880 Speaker 2: these things to commit genocide and we're beggaring our country. 762 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 2: This is wrong. I need to talk to you about this. 763 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 4: That's really cool. 764 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 2: So I'll give you one anecdote to underline that I'm 765 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 2: sitting in a car driving through the wilderness at two 766 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 2: o'clock in the morning, and sitting with me is a 767 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 2: representative of a radical Islamic regime whose whole raisondetra is 768 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,760 Speaker 2: like to kill Jews and kill Americans. And this guy 769 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 2: has something eating on his soul and he can't tell 770 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 2: anybody about his wife, who he loves, families, friends, And 771 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 2: he looks at me and he says, do you think 772 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 2: there's a God? And I look at him and the like, 773 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 2: this is a tiny be truth. And I said, you 774 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 2: know what, I don't think there is, but maybe I'm 775 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 2: not sure, and he's like, I don't think there is, 776 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:17,880 Speaker 2: he says, but you have to understand. I get up 777 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 2: at four in the morning and pray with my wife 778 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 2: and I look at her and think she faking it. 779 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:23,839 Speaker 2: And then I pray with my friends and I look 780 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 2: at them and they faking it. And my whole life 781 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 2: is you know, this with missionary zeal to carry out 782 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,799 Speaker 2: something that very something deadly, like we're looking to kill 783 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,800 Speaker 2: Jews and Americans, and I can't live with this anymore. 784 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 2: I have to talk to you. I'm like, okay, now 785 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:41,480 Speaker 2: that where you look them straight in the eye, you 786 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 2: tell him I can keep you alive, but what do 787 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 2: you want to do about it? And this is where 788 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 2: the professionals gits involved. 789 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,719 Speaker 1: That's so cool, But at both sides it actually is 790 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,800 Speaker 1: transactional in the sense that we even though that relationship 791 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 1: is very serious and I will do anything I can 792 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 1: to protect that person, I need that relationship to provide 793 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 1: information to the US guy to do something with it. 794 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,959 Speaker 1: And he not always a heat but usually a he 795 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 1: needs that relationship hoping that we can do something that 796 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 1: can help solve his problem. What if his problem is 797 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: his kid needs medical care and he can't get it 798 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 1: from his government. That is something I can solve. If 799 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,279 Speaker 1: it is I want us to change his policy so 800 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,719 Speaker 1: that you destroy my regime. It's not always something that's 801 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 1: going it's going to happen. 802 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:25,799 Speaker 4: I do want to ask, do you guys ever like 803 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 4: people say, oh, the CIA is like top bled democracies. 804 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 4: This is stuff decades ago, top of democracies because it 805 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 4: was in the US's best interest to do so, and 806 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 4: some folks there would say, not in the best interests 807 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 4: of the people who live there. Do you ever, Are 808 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 4: you ever in a situation where someone is giving you 809 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 4: information you're like, actually, this is maybe not in your 810 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,280 Speaker 4: best interest. It's in the United States's best interest. 811 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,400 Speaker 1: That's I mean, you are working for the US government 812 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 1: and you work on behalf of the u's government. If 813 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 1: you're uncomfortable with that, you need to leave or you 814 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:54,880 Speaker 1: need to try to push back if you think a 815 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 1: policy is silly. Now, ninety to ninety five percent of 816 00:37:57,680 --> 00:37:59,919 Speaker 1: what the Clandestine Service does, the part of the spot 817 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,280 Speaker 1: side of the Inciaward Jerry and I worked is collecting 818 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 1: intelligence to give information to policymakers so they can make 819 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,239 Speaker 1: better policy. But there is that five percent, which is 820 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,720 Speaker 1: called covert action, which is action, which is the stuff 821 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,600 Speaker 1: you're talking about in the fifties, trying to in Chile 822 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 1: or in Guatemala or what have you. Now, there was 823 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 1: very serious reforms in the nineteen seventies. I think the 824 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:22,800 Speaker 1: US got involved in a lot of those overthrowing regime 825 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 1: things that you talk about in Iran and other places, 826 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:28,920 Speaker 1: and they had blowback to them. And in nineteen seventies 827 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 1: there was a lot of reforms to try to change things. 828 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:33,760 Speaker 1: In fact, the US comment can't be involved in assassinations, 829 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:35,799 Speaker 1: and there had to be a process by which if 830 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:37,920 Speaker 1: the CIA was going to be asked to do something, 831 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,240 Speaker 1: it had to be done in writing from the White 832 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,120 Speaker 1: House and shared with the Congress before Eisnawer could just 833 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 1: say hey, listen, get rid of that guy, and the 834 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:47,799 Speaker 1: CIA would do that. So it is different now than 835 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,759 Speaker 1: it was then. But in some ways it's not like 836 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,120 Speaker 1: if we were talking about toppling governments. Now it's done 837 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,720 Speaker 1: pretty overtly. The US military goes in in topples of government, 838 00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:00,600 Speaker 1: we're not necessarily doing it nefariously from the inside. And 839 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:02,279 Speaker 1: so the CIA that Jerry and I grew up in 840 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,719 Speaker 1: for our thirty years was a post reform CIA where 841 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 1: we were brief in Congress and we weren't getting somebody 842 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,760 Speaker 1: whispering in our ear to kill a politician or something 843 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: like that. 844 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:15,879 Speaker 4: For your sakes, I'm glad, yeah, me too. You didn't 845 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 4: have to like poison Dart anybody exactly. 846 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 1: Thank you very much for your time. It was really 847 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:22,960 Speaker 1: exciting and interesting to talk to you and enjoy what 848 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:23,359 Speaker 1: you're doing. 849 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 4: It was a thrill to be here. This was so 850 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 4: much fun. 851 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:31,200 Speaker 5: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'shay, John Cipher, 852 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 5: and Jonathan Stern. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission 853 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 5: Implausible It's a production of honorable mention and abominable pictures 854 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:48,800 Speaker 5: for iHeart Podcasts.