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Speaker 1: This is me eater podcast coming at you shirtless severely

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Speaker 1: bug bitten in my case underwear listening Hunt podcast, You

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Speaker 1: can't predict anything presented by on X. Hunt creators are

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Speaker 1: the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters. Download the

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Speaker 1: Hunt app from the iTunes or Google play store, nor

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Speaker 1: where you stand with on X. Gab to Gott to

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Speaker 1: bring people up to speed on what we were just

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Speaker 1: talking about. Before Phil hit the power button. What what

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Speaker 1: don't you hit over there, Phil, Well, there are several

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Speaker 1: I do have to hit power first, that's the first

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Speaker 1: step step one, Um, and then I armed the board

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Speaker 1: for recording, turns on a red light, and then I

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Speaker 1: hit a play button that actually starts the recording. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: before you did all that, Spencer pointed out the Phil

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Speaker 1: means like the name Phil, so all the Phils in

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Speaker 1: the world, Philip means horse lover. Yeah, well, like you know, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Phil and I were having a deep conversation about Phil

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Speaker 1: the name over here because my my brother Um was

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Speaker 1: the fifth Phill in our family. My dad was the fourth.

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Speaker 1: My nephew is a sixth pill. So I was asking,

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Speaker 1: didn't name you Phil because my older brother's eight years

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Speaker 1: came eight years he got the name, He got the name.

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Speaker 1: That's right, he's Philip the he'd be the fifth. I

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Speaker 1: believe my nephew is the sixth. So I was asking, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that makes sense, so that brother had a kid. Correct,

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Speaker 1: my nephew was good. Confused. Our film was asking if

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Speaker 1: he's a one L or two L Phil, what what

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Speaker 1: does he feel like to you? One L or two ell? Or?

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Speaker 1: I got it wrong? Cow Let me think where were

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Speaker 1: you born? Vancouver, Washington? Two els? Yeah, Phil felt like

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Speaker 1: a two L to me. I thought he was a

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Speaker 1: two L guy. What I'm okay, Phil, but I'd be

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Speaker 1: f I L L just as people. Yeah, what two ls? Why?

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Speaker 1: Because because one which one sounds more like Philippe. Well

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Speaker 1: that's that's that's a two pe situation. Oh that's right. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: This is strictly coming from my personal experience with phills.

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Speaker 1: And you're different than those pills, which is like your

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Speaker 1: name has to be spelled different. But the horse, the

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Speaker 1: horse lover thing um is derived from the Greek word Philippo's,

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Speaker 1: which means horse loving or fond of horses, fondling horses,

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Speaker 1: fond of horses. I'm with you. I got my on you,

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Speaker 1: Phil Well, I gotta say I don't. I don't live

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Speaker 1: up to the name. My parents really messed out because

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Speaker 1: I have horses. I hates a strong word. I have

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Speaker 1: no I have no like attractions. Okay, I'm gonna stop talking.

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Speaker 1: I'm not drawn to horses. I don't have an attachment

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Speaker 1: to horses. I didn't grow up with like a farm,

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Speaker 1: animals or anything like that. And I got a lot

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Speaker 1: of admiration for people that. Um. I know a lot

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Speaker 1: about horses because it's one of those things where my

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Speaker 1: sister in law they have a immense herd of horses

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Speaker 1: where she lives, and when she looks at a like

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Speaker 1: I look at a horse, I just see I don't

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Speaker 1: know horse. She looks at a horse, she sees like

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Speaker 1: not only the history of that animal, but like the

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Speaker 1: history of its mother. Do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: Like all of it's like neu ro season, past injuries

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Speaker 1: and what has been eating. It's just like it's amazing.

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Speaker 1: You could never learn at all like you have. I

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Speaker 1: think it's one of those you have to be brought

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Speaker 1: up around. I sat next to a girl in middle

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Speaker 1: school who wore nothing but like horse just sweaters and

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Speaker 1: was just spent with Spenter days drawing horses all day long.

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Speaker 1: I never understood it, like there's a thing with horses. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I bet you. I bet you. She had long hair

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Speaker 1: in a ponytail. Yeah. I find it's a weird thing

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Speaker 1: that happens. My sister in law doesn't do this, but

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Speaker 1: I find a lot of women who are very interested

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Speaker 1: in horses wind up having very long hair and a ponytail,

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Speaker 1: as though they were trying to replicate the horse's tail.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if they're even realize this. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: don't know. If i'd like to start asking people if

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Speaker 1: they realize this. Joined today by Nell's Johnson, We're gonna

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Speaker 1: be talking to a bunch later on. He's the North

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Speaker 1: American Energy Program director at the Nature Conservancy. So, hello Nels,

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Speaker 1: Hello Steve. So we we've found you because you rode

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Speaker 1: into us offering some clarifications and corrections. Someone who knows him,

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Speaker 1: someone who knows you suggest oh I thought you rolled in.

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Speaker 1: I'm fretting about is not a self promoter. I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: hold it against you. So, so who who are? It

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter? But but how did we how did we

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Speaker 1: track down? Because because we've been talking a little bit

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Speaker 1: about wind farms and how I don't like them. There's, uh,

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Speaker 1: I guess a listener out there in our community who

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Speaker 1: has been you know, who's heard us touch on this conversation,

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Speaker 1: and they said, you know, you ought to talk to

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Speaker 1: exactly and he's right there. So and then we reached

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Speaker 1: out you and you said, yes, well, yeah, there was

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Speaker 1: a little arm twisting involved, but yeah, happy to do it.

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Speaker 1: So you're gonna answer all of our questions about whether

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Speaker 1: or not the planet will soon be covered in windmills,

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Speaker 1: wind turbans. Uh. Well, yeah, that and a few other things.

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Speaker 1: And all the birds will be dead. Yeah, and uh,

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Speaker 1: the squirrels will be doing great though, because I can't

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Speaker 1: climb up those slick turbine shafts. We'll get to all

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Speaker 1: that in a minute. That's gonna be interesting, because I got,

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Speaker 1: I got. I've been doing a lot of handwringing and

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Speaker 1: a lot of fretting. You know, it's interesting. Uh, I'll

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Speaker 1: point this out, but we don't even to discuss it yet.

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Speaker 1: There's a feller that's been making some waves. Um ah,

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Speaker 1: he's a congressman. Ken's anger, Kenzinger, Ken's anger. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: just signed up for his email newsletter. So he's been

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Speaker 1: making a lot of waves by being um, not really

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Speaker 1: like in the direction of the Republican Party. Um. And

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Speaker 1: I've been kind of interested in what he's got to say.

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Speaker 1: And I was looking at his Twitter feed and he

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Speaker 1: was saying, Ah, let's make sure to keep nuclear in

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Speaker 1: the mix. So we'll talk about that. We will. That's

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Speaker 1: my thing, man, I want to end it on this,

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Speaker 1: that's my thing. It's good. Yeah. I hope you can

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Speaker 1: talk me out of it, but I don't think you can.

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Speaker 1: I don't even know if you're interested in talking me

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Speaker 1: out of it. Okay, UM, all right, but but be

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Speaker 1: realistic about when and how that happens, right, So that's yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to get mired nose, kind of make

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Speaker 1: sure they're doing it and doing it now. You're either

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Speaker 1: pro energy or your anti nature like, which is um. Okay,

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Speaker 1: we've got a handful of Hank tight nels. Feel free

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Speaker 1: to if something strikes your fancy, feel free to speak up. Absolutely. Thanks. Uh. Now,

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Speaker 1: we have to be sitting in Montana right now, and

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about some bills that are up,

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Speaker 1: some rule changes that are up, and I wouldn't talk

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Speaker 1: about it if I didn't think that they uh weren't

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Speaker 1: kind of like more broadly applicable, Like it brings up

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Speaker 1: interesting subjects that I think that anyone who's interested in

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Speaker 1: UH hunting and fishing rules and whatnot legislation, right, they

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Speaker 1: don't need to be here to appreciate the complexity and

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Speaker 1: relevance of these questions. Do you feel like I'm selling us, well,

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Speaker 1: col yeah, absolutely. One one thing that's up right now,

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Speaker 1: s B one one one. It's good they went with

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Speaker 1: s B and that BS one, but I think BS

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Speaker 1: one one one would have been better. I'll be curious

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Speaker 1: to hear Spencer's take on this. They want to legalize

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Speaker 1: crossbow hunting. They want to legalize, not that it's illegal,

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Speaker 1: they want to make it so you can hunt with

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Speaker 1: a crossbow during archery season right now, specifically for UH

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Speaker 1: impaired hunters, handicapped hunters. That's it. That's it. That's what

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Speaker 1: I thought. But then someone told me it was more

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Speaker 1: complicated than that. Well, I think someone gave me the

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Speaker 1: old slippery slope argument. That is, that's that's our that's

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Speaker 1: our argument that we always stand on, right. It's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I'm a slippery slope guy, I think that there

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Speaker 1: is in fact a slippery slope in the world and

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Speaker 1: people fall down the slippery Like I'm a big believer

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Speaker 1: in slippery slopes. So s B one one one is

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Speaker 1: is just that. So it would uh make crossbows legal

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Speaker 1: for those who apply for a handicapped validation to hunt

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Speaker 1: during the season and they can hunt with that crossbow

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Speaker 1: during the archery season. Right now, crossbows are legal to

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Speaker 1: hunt with in the state of Montana as long as

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Speaker 1: you use them during the firearms season. Mm hmm hmm.

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Speaker 1: How are they? I didn't know that, Like I I

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Speaker 1: know this from various text messages and stuff that I

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Speaker 1: got that didn't get into any level of detail. Is

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Speaker 1: just expressing horror text messages expressing like what are the

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Speaker 1: what will happen next? Yes, so where is the world headed?

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Speaker 1: So so explain the what what is caught as the handicapped,

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Speaker 1: like to what degree? So what this says is that

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Speaker 1: it's a discriminatory right. So right now that you use

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Speaker 1: a device that holds a traditional bow, which you know

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Speaker 1: traditional I'm encompassing really compound bows, or if you could

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Speaker 1: figure a device out for a recurve or long bow

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Speaker 1: that would hold that bow back at full draw with

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Speaker 1: an arrow in it, and that would be legal for

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Speaker 1: UH handicap hunters to use right now, which you can't

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Speaker 1: turn it sideways, but you can't turn it horizontal. Um hm.

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Speaker 1: And so this basically, if folks can't figure out how

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Speaker 1: to use that, then they can't hunt during ourchery season. However,

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Speaker 1: they can use a crossbow if that is uh, you

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Speaker 1: know something that they can can work, you know, something

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Speaker 1: that they can use effectively. They can use that during

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Speaker 1: rightful season, not our tree season. UM. What like Montana

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Speaker 1: traditional bow hunters are and is this is how crossbow

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Speaker 1: bow has become legal during our tree season. And the

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Speaker 1: issue there is we're gonna see much higher success rates,

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Speaker 1: which in turn is gonna shorten our archery season altogether

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Speaker 1: because our tree is gonna be way too effective. Um.

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Speaker 1: And then again there's the discrimination side of this too.

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Speaker 1: It's like, if this is keeping handicapped hunters out of

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Speaker 1: our tree season, then we need to address that and

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Speaker 1: make sure that handicap hunters are included in our tree

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Speaker 1: season if they are capable. The state code basically says that, UM,

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Speaker 1: as long like we can adapt anything to be as

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Speaker 1: inclusive as possible. As as as long as it doesn't change

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Speaker 1: the essence of what that thing is. Um. The inter

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Speaker 1: susting parts here are like I have been around, I've

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Speaker 1: I've guided some crossbow hunts for folks who were able

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Speaker 1: to use them under this same pretense. UM in what state? Colorado?

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Speaker 1: And it was for me, being somebody who's not familiar

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Speaker 1: with the crossbow, it was almost a two person job

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Speaker 1: to load the crossbow. UM. And that handicapped hunter was

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Speaker 1: not capable of loading that thing on their own. They

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Speaker 1: were very effective with it, uh to shoot, but it

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Speaker 1: wasn't a one person job to load the thing. UM.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure there's a lot of different crossbows out there,

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Speaker 1: but UM, this kind of seems like, oh, if we

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Speaker 1: just add crossbows, then everybody's gonna be happy. But it's like,

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Speaker 1: if you can't use the thing that holds your bow

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Speaker 1: back at full draw, I don't think there's anything that

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Speaker 1: necessarily says crossbows are going to fix that. And then

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Speaker 1: there's probably people that would still be incapable of shooting

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Speaker 1: a cross bow, yeah, absolutely, but could shoot a firearm,

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Speaker 1: yes for sure. Uh. A very near and dear person

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Speaker 1: to me was sharing with me that they really hope

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Speaker 1: this does not pass. They don't want to see crossbows.

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Speaker 1: Their argument was that this is like the playbook from

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Speaker 1: the crossbow industry, is that it always starts with this

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Speaker 1: and then pretty soon it's everybody. But he said that

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Speaker 1: if they do make cross bowls legal, he will start

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Speaker 1: to hunt with one because it's the arms race. Oh,

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Speaker 1: very interesting. I sure like I can't. I don't have

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Speaker 1: the level expertise about this to really have an opinion

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Speaker 1: about it. But if it was just generally to make

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Speaker 1: it that you could during archery season with crossbows, I

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Speaker 1: would point out there's all kinds of times with crossbows

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Speaker 1: with the crossbow during rifles season. And and that was

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Speaker 1: a great point, Like it's not like you can't use it.

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Speaker 1: You can use it for six damn weeks. Um. There

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Speaker 1: was a point made uh during the hearing for this that, uh,

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Speaker 1: if you want to take advantage of shoulder season hunts,

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Speaker 1: uh bird hunting opportunities, there's I'm gonna have to dig

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Speaker 1: in dead. You can use it for spring bear three

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Speaker 1: hundred days of crossbow hunting of crossbow hunting currently available.

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Speaker 1: That sounds pretty good. That sounds pretty good. Okay, here's

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Speaker 1: one Uh, here's another bill that's up and this is

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Speaker 1: an interesting one. So it's hard as hell, hard as

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Speaker 1: hell to draw. It doesn't matter where you are in

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Speaker 1: the West. It's hard to draw a moose, sheep or

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Speaker 1: goat tag in the West. I'll say, you know, I'll

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Speaker 1: out of Alaska, right, so you can apply your whole

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Speaker 1: life and never get one. I've been I just drew

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Speaker 1: a mountain goat for instance, I just drew a mountain

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Speaker 1: goat tag. After twenty six years of applying. I drew

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Speaker 1: a mountain goat tag in the state of Montana. Took

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Speaker 1: me twenty six years. I don't know how many They

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Speaker 1: started the bonus point system somewhere in the middle of

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Speaker 1: my application period. Your bonus points are squared. So when

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Speaker 1: I learned multiplication as a youngster, we only got up

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Speaker 1: to twelve times twelve, and then we quit for some reason.

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Speaker 1: I don't know why. We never got into what happens

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Speaker 1: when you times thirteen by something, so I still don't know.

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Speaker 1: But if you had twelve bonus points, your names in

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Speaker 1: the hat a hundred and forty four times, and I

244
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Speaker 1: finally drew a mount and go take now I have

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Speaker 1: to take off what you gotta quit yell a low

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Speaker 1: for five years or seven years, seven years, I think

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Speaker 1: before you can apply again, before you can eat an

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Speaker 1: amply know. But I have friends who because you were successful,

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Speaker 1: that would be an important part of this. I had

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00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,200
Speaker 1: friends who drew mount and like applied drew mount and

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Speaker 1: goat tag, laid low for all the years, started applying again,

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00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,520
Speaker 1: drew a second one, right, which I feel is like

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Speaker 1: a great feat it's a great triumph. There's a bill

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Speaker 1: that would make it that when you draw in some

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Speaker 1: states have this already that once you draw a moose, sheep,

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Speaker 1: or goat tag. I think it's if you're successful, if

257
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Speaker 1: you're successful on the hunt, so successful drawing and then

258
00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:38,800
Speaker 1: successful slapping that tag on a harvested animal, you are

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Speaker 1: done for life. You can never get back in the mix.

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Speaker 1: Is it individually per animal? You're not done with everything,

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Speaker 1: You're done with that one. What states have this? Idaho? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Idaho has once in a lifetime stuff. There's a bunch

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Speaker 1: of a handfuls like New Mexico has some once in

264
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Speaker 1: a lifetime And it's important to note too, if you're

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Speaker 1: you can apply for a cow, moose you know immediately

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Speaker 1: yeah or you know so there's there's you got two

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00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,919
Speaker 1: shots at hunting each animal, just one is gonna be

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Speaker 1: the animal with the more impressive headgear. Now, this rule

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Speaker 1: I was sharing that Cal and I were talking about

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Speaker 1: this on the phone. This rule is one of those

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Speaker 1: rules where everybody's opinion right down to whoever wrote this

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Speaker 1: thing up. Everybody's I guarantee whoever wrote this up hasn't

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Speaker 1: drawn moose, sheep or goat. Take garen ted, and they're

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Speaker 1: pissed because their cousin he's drawn too. I've never drawn one. Yep,

275
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Speaker 1: this is not fair, Like I guaren t. You should

276
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Speaker 1: look into that cran if he's the person that drew

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Speaker 1: this up piste, there's no way they're sitting on There's

278
00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:57,600
Speaker 1: no way they drew all these and they're trying to

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Speaker 1: draw him again. No way. Well, I wonder how many uh,

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Speaker 1: how many folks who have applied what percentage of the

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Speaker 1: total I don't know, per year over the past I

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Speaker 1: don't know, five years, ten years. If we figure out

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00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,040
Speaker 1: some kind of percentage of those who have drawn, who

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00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:20,720
Speaker 1: have drawn twice and been successful, like what would if

285
00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:22,880
Speaker 1: they were out of the mix, What would it really

286
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Speaker 1: do to the guy that drew this up, this bill,

287
00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:27,439
Speaker 1: what would it really do for his oddes? I mean,

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Speaker 1: are we talking about three people out of that is?

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00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:34,760
Speaker 1: That is the point and the pro con argument in

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Speaker 1: the debate for House Bill Too oh two is it

291
00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:43,840
Speaker 1: will increase people's odds who have not drawn yet. And

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Speaker 1: the con or the yeah, the con why this bill

293
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Speaker 1: shouldn't exist. This will not increase people. I don't like

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Speaker 1: it for this reason because did I ever tell you

295
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Speaker 1: about my Civics teacher in ninth grade? Al de Young?

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Speaker 1: Al de Young? Uh? He was. He was. He would

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Speaker 1: do parody, but none of us were old enough or

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Speaker 1: smart enough to know he was doing parody. Ald Young

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00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:15,960
Speaker 1: taught government through the letter he role played. We now

300
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,080
Speaker 1: know he role played as a guy who would say

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Speaker 1: and remember, I am concerned only with what effects? And

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00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:27,040
Speaker 1: you point himself Al de Young, and he would be like,

303
00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:28,840
Speaker 1: there was he was supposed to take everyone down to

304
00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:32,399
Speaker 1: register him to vote. He's like, there's no way I

305
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,720
Speaker 1: would take you people down to register to vote. Why

306
00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:39,639
Speaker 1: would I dilute my vote? I don't want you idiots voting.

307
00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,879
Speaker 1: That was a ship um, but it's stuck with me.

308
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,200
Speaker 1: And like a rule like this, I don't like it,

309
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Speaker 1: because what if they made it retroactive and I'm out

310
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Speaker 1: of the run on a mountain goat or I'm not

311
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Speaker 1: I'm old, I'm not totally old. I could draw a

312
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Speaker 1: sheep tag next year. I would hate to learn that

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00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:06,639
Speaker 1: I couldn't get back in the running in five years.

314
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:14,280
Speaker 1: Why not because your bro's got to rights that, dude,

315
00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,359
Speaker 1: It because Steve and his brother are competing. No, I

316
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:21,960
Speaker 1: just like, I don't like it, and I don't like only.

317
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:24,680
Speaker 1: I don't like only for what it would mean for me,

318
00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:27,480
Speaker 1: or is it the slippery slope problem? You know then

319
00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:29,400
Speaker 1: it's gonna be white tailed deer and that it's gonna

320
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:35,360
Speaker 1: be squirrels and you know you're done. That is interesting, Honestly,

321
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Speaker 1: I haven't thought about it that way. But one good

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Speaker 1: you know, speaking from the Idaho standpoint, right, it's kind

323
00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:51,680
Speaker 1: of could be a b S bill because already, uh,

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Speaker 1: there is a governor's tag, which if you love hunting

325
00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,359
Speaker 1: sheep so much, why don't you just buy the governor's tag.

326
00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,199
Speaker 1: I think it went for four or four yeah last year,

327
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:08,280
Speaker 1: four kids? Right? Uh? State Idaho? Is that once a lift,

328
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:13,280
Speaker 1: once in lifetime tag unless you wanna get in the

329
00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,440
Speaker 1: Governor's auction and buy the tag every year so you

330
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,239
Speaker 1: can hunt. You can hunt cheap in perpetuity. It's kind

331
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:24,960
Speaker 1: of a bunch of crap. Here's there's a question of statistics. Yeah,

332
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,679
Speaker 1: I think it's symbolic. I think it's symbolic flat statistics.

333
00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:33,439
Speaker 1: So uh, let's say you know, after you'r what waiting

334
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:39,000
Speaker 1: seven years, you apply again. Isn't it if a thousand

335
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:43,720
Speaker 1: people apply one year and two thousand people apply the next,

336
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 1: whether Steve is in the running during that a thousand

337
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,879
Speaker 1: people or not, isn't it just based on the total

338
00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,479
Speaker 1: number of people who have applied that year, That's what

339
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,200
Speaker 1: you based on. This is meant to be vindictive because

340
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,480
Speaker 1: even one that dude sits, even when that dude sits

341
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:03,360
Speaker 1: out seven years, okay, he's coming in with zero points,

342
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,320
Speaker 1: He's got to rebuild his whole collection of points. He's

343
00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:12,359
Speaker 1: like inconsequential, it's it's a way to punish the lucky people, right,

344
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:16,159
Speaker 1: that's right. It's not one to one. There's people, and

345
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:20,200
Speaker 1: so is the winning argument. It's the war unlucky people.

346
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,320
Speaker 1: If it doesn't matter, then why not get rid of them?

347
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,640
Speaker 1: Or is the winning argument? Is every little bit counts.

348
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,440
Speaker 1: You know, so like when you look, especially as a nonresident,

349
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,639
Speaker 1: if you look at your draw odds of getting like

350
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:37,640
Speaker 1: a premier sheep tag, it can be like point oh

351
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,639
Speaker 1: one five percent some places point oh five percent. And

352
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:45,280
Speaker 1: it's like, so if that point oh five percent is

353
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:49,960
Speaker 1: back in the pool, does does it really affect your

354
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,639
Speaker 1: odds of drawing? Oh? Yeah, because when you when you

355
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 1: get to looking at the odds on draw tags, you know,

356
00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,639
Speaker 1: you can see a draw tag is point five percent

357
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 1: chance of drawing, or it's uh, another tag is one

358
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 1: percent chance of drawing. There's something that happens in your head,

359
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 1: like you don't view it being twice as likely to

360
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:14,640
Speaker 1: draw the one. You just view it all as being shitty. Yes,

361
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,719
Speaker 1: you just view like dah ain't never gonna happen. So

362
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 1: this goes to directly into the next bill, uh, which

363
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,400
Speaker 1: is our bonus points bill, which is another great topic.

364
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:30,119
Speaker 1: And when you read the number on that, this one, okay,

365
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 1: HB one, this one strikes to my core. This one.

366
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Speaker 1: I would go so far. I wouldn't go so far

367
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Speaker 1: as to say that I would storm the state Capitol

368
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 1: building while they were telling the votes. I wouldn't go

369
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 1: that far. I don't know about it. I'm not saying

370
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 1: I would take it that far. But I've already bought

371
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 1: my kids a bunch of bonus points. You've invested in

372
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 1: their future, Listen, I've invested in my future. No, I've

373
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,200
Speaker 1: invested in my future because I think it's fun to

374
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 1: go hunt moves, sheep and go. So my kids, my

375
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 1: four year old, when he knows how old is he know,

376
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 1: he's six, he's already sitting on three bonus points. When

377
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,359
Speaker 1: he turns twelve, he'll be going into the draw with

378
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 1: nine points. Do you have another trying to rob this

379
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 1: from me? Do you at all feel partially responsible for

380
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 1: inspiring this bill? No, because you've talked about this so

381
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 1: many Yeah, listen, you gotta hate the hate the game,

382
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 1: not the player, bro. So I'll tell you what said

383
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 1: against this thing. Um. These Yeah, these are folks coming

384
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 1: in against the the You know, as the bill has written,

385
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 1: this is not the way the game is supposed to

386
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 1: be played. So the kids who have not invested in

387
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 1: hunting in the state of Montana are coming in as

388
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 1: if they have invested for well eight, nine, ten years, right,

389
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 1: But they're they're paying, They're paying money to the state

390
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:17,440
Speaker 1: agency and drawing nothing in return. It's a money. Let's

391
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 1: let's be frank. Okay, Okay, let's hear me out. I'll

392
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:31,159
Speaker 1: try explain it. Okay, HB one, please please, But I

393
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 1: think you got to talk about a bill for an

394
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:39,959
Speaker 1: act entitled an Act allowing only persons eligible to hunt

395
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 1: to apply for bonus points, which would be an amendment

396
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: of Montana Code's annotated section eight seven dash to dash

397
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 1: one seven. Okay, So in this state, a kid can

398
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:58,679
Speaker 1: start legally hunting at ten with a mentor um and

399
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:00,919
Speaker 1: they can only hunt over the counter tags. They can

400
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 1: a ten year old cannot try to draw a limited

401
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 1: draw permit. You have to be twelve to try to

402
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 1: draw a limited draw permit. It would stand to reason

403
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,239
Speaker 1: it would make most sense that you can at that

404
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 1: point you can start applying in accruing bonus points. But

405
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: through some weird like the thing that I don't even

406
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 1: think is that rational, but I exploit it. All of

407
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,359
Speaker 1: a sudden, they made it that your kids can start

408
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 1: A dad could her mom whatever the hell, could start

409
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 1: stocking up bonus points for their kids by just going

410
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 1: down and buying them over the counter. So I was like,

411
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 1: that's really kind of strange and a little almost like,

412
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: you know, I almost don't even like it, but again,

413
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 1: hate the game, not the player. I went down and

414
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,679
Speaker 1: got my kids little A L. S numbers that they

415
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 1: don't even need, and started buying them points. How much

416
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 1: is a point, I don't know. But when it's all

417
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 1: said and done, I can't remember on each But when

418
00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 1: it's all said and done, I walk out of their

419
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 1: danged buy a few hundred bucks because I buy the

420
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 1: points for everything, all of them, So all three of

421
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 1: them get all available points. And they don't even know this.

422
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 1: Well no, I kind of explained it the deal being.

423
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 1: I told him, if you don't bring me, if you

424
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 1: draw one of these things and don't bring me with you,

425
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: I want all this money back that investing. Yeah, I'm like, dude,

426
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 1: this is going on the hunt. If you decide to

427
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 1: go like with your bodies at school or something, you're

428
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 1: gonna be getting an invoice for all my point money back.

429
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:36,879
Speaker 1: I love it. I love it. Yeah. So the bonus

430
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:42,120
Speaker 1: points system in theory is set up as a here

431
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: is a way to reward people who are invested in

432
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:49,400
Speaker 1: the system right by extending it to people who are

433
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 1: not invested in the system and giving them a conceivably

434
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:59,160
Speaker 1: very large leg up depending on you know, changes in

435
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 1: in the state. Um, it violates the intention of the bill,

436
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 1: the original bill, um, would be my perspective. Now, I

437
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,680
Speaker 1: will also let you in on a little more perspective

438
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 1: of mine own. I have niece and a nephew at

439
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 1: this point, right, I don't buy them anything. Is because

440
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 1: you're a tight ass, because you don't agree with this.

441
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 1: What I do is I opened up a life insurance policy,

442
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 1: uh for each of them on based on my own life,

443
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: and they will get cash. But I also have to

444
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 1: deal with my death. That is going to be like

445
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 1: their only gift from all uncle cal Like they're gonna

446
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 1: have to bury your carcass. Why did you bring my

447
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: kids that, um, when you have your own nephews and stuff?

448
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 1: Was it just expedient? See why you brought my kids?

449
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: The No, they're getting a bunch of stuff too. Yeah, um,

450
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 1: the and the I think this is the way to go,

451
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 1: right because like you and I have a screw me over.

452
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 1: You robbed points from the mouth of my baby. Have

453
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 1: turned into a pretty decent human being and one of

454
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 1: those things that has made you a pretty decent human

455
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: being is like paying your way through school, right, Like,

456
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 1: oh god, let me tell you this sob story about

457
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 1: going to state school, trapping my way through until I

458
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: could get into the University Montana, and being becoming a

459
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: big swinging dick writer. Right. Uh, that's character, right, Okay,

460
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 1: you're robbing your children of knowing the pain of yes, exactly,

461
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: and therefore you're you're putting their uh their their lives

462
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: at risk of becoming decent humans. You know, these bills. Oh,

463
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 1: I want to move on here, but these bills are

464
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: a real one to punch to my children because imagine that, uh,

465
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,479
Speaker 1: I do well, like I do all this, and then

466
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 1: one of them draws a tag and they're not even

467
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 1: They're like twelve years old, right, and they don't you

468
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: know what the hell is going on. They don't even

469
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: know how cool it is. And then they can't ever

470
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 1: draw another one when they're growing up and would appreciate

471
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 1: it exactly. It's it's a war on children. I'm hung

472
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: up on this life and shirt. So do your nieces

473
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 1: and nephews know this? Like, do you think they root

474
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: for your death? A little bit? A little thin? By

475
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: that point, I've got shirts older than my niece I got,

476
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: I got shirts older than my nephew gets a little

477
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 1: thin down by the nice level. They might be kind

478
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: of being like, He's like, so you're telling me if

479
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 1: Calle dies exactly, And they're like, and I'm currently not

480
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 1: getting any birthday or Christmas presents. But they know about this.

481
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 1: The sister knows about this. So where is this cal

482
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 1: guy live? Yeah? So I also want to get to

483
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: this next one, which is super interesting. Is just going

484
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 1: to be a quick beat, which is what's the next

485
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: one on the list with the It eliminates the fishing

486
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 1: game's ability to have special draw tags in units that

487
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 1: are over objective. Yeah, but you're skipping one that I

488
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: want to understand a little better real quick. We gotta

489
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 1: hustle though. Yeah. Six, Okay, they I think we're going

490
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 1: to going back in time. So there's another thing. Nonresident

491
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: licenses Okay, nonresid license state sp They want to make

492
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 1: it the outfitters are guaranteed a significant percentage. That would

493
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: mean that people that would normally, like a nonresident hunter

494
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 1: that would normally come to a state to just do

495
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: a d I Y hunt, um, that they funnel more

496
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 1: of that business to outfitters and make it be that

497
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: that they have these outfitter specific permits. Yes, so it

498
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 1: would favor individuals who are going to hire an outfitter

499
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 1: over individuals are going to freelance it. Yes, and and

500
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 1: it does. The truest part of that is this will

501
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: favor those going with who have made the choice to

502
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: go with an outfitter. And you have to make the

503
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 1: choice earlier in the season than the general draw, the

504
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 1: general nonresident draw. So UM. Basically, it's kind of poised

505
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 1: as a if you're willing to commit early and at

506
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 1: this this point, the revised version of spe UM of

507
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 1: those non residents who are willing to commit to hunting

508
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 1: with an outfitter for the two combination tags that are

509
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 1: available in state Montana for nonresidents, and willing to spend

510
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 1: an additional three dollars on the application process per application,

511
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 1: they will be guaranteed a tag up until that threshold

512
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 1: of of the nonresident tags is met. UH. An interesting

513
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: part of this so I had a great conversation with

514
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 1: the head of Montana Outfits, Outfitters and Guides Association, Moga

515
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 1: mcmanard uh super nice guy and UH. The stated intention

516
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 1: of SPEE is to take care of the current customer

517
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 1: base for outfitters and guides in the state of Montana.

518
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 1: And they're saying that right now, it's about of non

519
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: residents already choose to hunt with an outfitter and guide. UM. However,

520
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: the amended version here has UH ten swing, so it

521
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 1: could go up to fift and that's based on the

522
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 1: number of applications that don't come in under the outfitters

523
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 1: bill UM from the previous season. So if choose to

524
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: apply only guaranteed tags, well next year, that can be

525
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:29,800
Speaker 1: increased to up to UM. It sounds a little complicated

526
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:31,839
Speaker 1: the way I'm saying it, but it's it's pretty darn

527
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 1: simple UM. And you know, the cleanest opposition to this

528
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 1: bill is why the hell should folks who are willing

529
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:48,760
Speaker 1: to pay more be guaranteed A sounds like it, uh,

530
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:54,719
Speaker 1: you know, privilege UM. And the counter argument to that,

531
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 1: which is an economic one. So the University Montana has

532
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 1: an ongo ng survey, and through this ongoing survey, it's

533
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 1: a recreation based survey, they've determined that out of the

534
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 1: three point three billion dollars that recreation brings into the

535
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 1: state of Montana, outfitted recreation, which is a much larger

536
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 1: umbrella than than hunting, which is what we're thinking of

537
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 1: right now. So be hunting fishing, it would more than

538
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 1: likely be your sister in law's outfit as well. Uh.

539
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 1: You know, guided horseback rides, there's guiding, there's rafting, there's

540
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: sled dog runs, all sorts of things. UM. I even

541
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 1: have a buddy who takes people on nature walks. UM.

542
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,720
Speaker 1: All of that recreation amounced about ten percent, so bitty,

543
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 1: you know, big big chunk change for the state of Montana.

544
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:48,839
Speaker 1: And they found that folks willing to go with an

545
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 1: outfitter outspend uh non outfitted recreators in the state of

546
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 1: Montana by five to one. UM, keep them like this

547
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 1: is one study. Everybody I've talked to you on this

548
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 1: is like, how the heck does that make sense? But

549
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 1: I think when you start thinking about the gamut of

550
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 1: outfitted experiences in the in the state, UM, there's definitely

551
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,240
Speaker 1: some folks spending a lot of money compared to folks

552
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,839
Speaker 1: who are, you know, throwing the kids in the old

553
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 1: family truckster and coming out to the state of Montana.

554
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 1: So there's a theme developing here the haves versus the

555
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 1: have nots, which is like the greatest argument of all time. Right, yeah, Hey,

556
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 1: we got a note from a guy. You remember how

557
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 1: we had a guy right in that uh he was hunting.

558
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:36,320
Speaker 1: He listened to our podcast with Adam Lazzara, who uh

559
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 1: helped advise and work on our medical section and the

560
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: Mediator Guide to Wilderness Skills and Survival, which is available

561
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: now on Amazon New York Times bestseller. Um, that guy

562
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 1: talked all about tourniquets, and a guy wrote in that

563
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 1: he his dad got shot in the arm hunting and

564
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 1: used the tourniquet to save him. Another guy wrote in says,

565
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 1: I would have never thought about tourniquet applying. Driving with

566
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 1: his kids, comes across car cash oh biker bikers in

567
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:10,319
Speaker 1: the middle of the road, compound fracture, lower left leg

568
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 1: bleeding profusely. The guy says he was not wearing a belt,

569
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 1: but thought about the episode we had and got a

570
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: belt off a bystander and through a tourniquet on the

571
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 1: guy stop the bleeding. Took ten minutes for the ambulance

572
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 1: to get there, saved his life. That is episode Bleeding

573
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 1: out in case here that was named the episode bleeding

574
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 1: out right. The proper thing to do when you go

575
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 1: to administer care right is to establish who you are.

576
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 1: So I'd be like Stephen hey, or you know, sir,

577
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 1: ma'am you, I would be like, I'm here on behalf

578
00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 1: of Dr Adam Lazara, right, And so I'm just dying

579
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: to know, like what the bedside manner was? Now, sir,

580
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,799
Speaker 1: I see your legs bleeding out. I have a belt here,

581
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 1: And I've listened to a podcast listening to this year

582
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 1: podcast stand stand Back called meat Everybody stand Back. I

583
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 1: heard the podcast No Need to Call for Help. Spencer

584
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 1: Guy wrote in about the Real Foot Lake deal Um,

585
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 1: which recovered extensively, but he talked about his grandpa. He

586
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 1: had a grandpa named Papa Duck, and Papa Duck was

587
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 1: a guide on a duck club in Utah, and the

588
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 1: Duck Club had these blinds out in a management unit

589
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,399
Speaker 1: and they would bring in clients by airboat and drop

590
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 1: them off hunt these blinds. But apparently the like the

591
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 1: blinds were there, but the Duck Club couldn't actually prohibit

592
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 1: dudes from using the blinds. So like they built the blinds,

593
00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:00,360
Speaker 1: but they couldn't do away with the public as aspect.

594
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 1: And he says one day, Gramps rolls in. There's a

595
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 1: guy in a blind. They're getting a fight, and he

596
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 1: ties a rope off to the blind and gets so mad.

597
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:14,800
Speaker 1: He ties a rope to the blind and ties it

598
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: off to his airboat and tries to pull the blind over,

599
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: getting a big fight. The blind tips over. Actually, the

600
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:29,360
Speaker 1: hunter tries to shoot the rope. Okay, tries to shoot

601
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 1: the rope clean, gets injured. The Sheriff's called, and Papa

602
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 1: Duck that Papa Duck thinking that the guy will get

603
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 1: I don't know how he thinks that the guy will

604
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: get in trouble. The sheriff comes and gives a citation

605
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:48,439
Speaker 1: to Papa Duck for harassment. Then he ends the note

606
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 1: by saying, my grandpa was later kicked out of the

607
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 1: Duck Club for reasons I'm not sure about. I was

608
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 1: really impressed with this guys honesty. Oh yeah, like typically

609
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: he's turning his own grandpa And yeah, typically grandparents have

610
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 1: like some level of divinity that grandchildren hold them to classhole. Yeah,

611
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 1: this was great, my grandpa. Before we get into our

612
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 1: renewable energy here, speaking of talking about hunter harassment, now,

613
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 1: it's a many I don't know how many states. I

614
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 1: wish I knew this off top of my head. A

615
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 1: lot of states, most states, I think, have hunter harassment laws.

616
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:48,320
Speaker 1: You know, Jeremiah Johnson when bear claw Chris clap, is

617
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:53,240
Speaker 1: it clap? That's an std isn't it? Clap? Clack clap

618
00:40:54,400 --> 00:41:01,399
Speaker 1: lap bear claw Chris clap played by the dude who

619
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 1: used to play uh the Judge and Hardcastle McCormick. Remember

620
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:10,279
Speaker 1: that it was a guy on like anyhow, sorry, st

621
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 1: Uh can you look that up? Spencer? Is it lap

622
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 1: or clap anyhow? And Jeremiah Johnson l app okay? And

623
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 1: Jeremiah Johnson he's out fiddling around the mountains trying to

624
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 1: make it as a mountain man and eventually gets a

625
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 1: good hollering at from old seasoned, grizzled mountain man who

626
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:35,279
Speaker 1: accuses him of of molesting his hunt. You've been molesting

627
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 1: my hunt, and it's illegal to molest someone's hunt. And

628
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 1: virtually all states like if someone's doing like a lawful activity,

629
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 1: like they're lawfully hunting, lawfully trapping, lawfully fishing, and someone

630
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 1: comes out to screw with them, it's against the law.

631
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,760
Speaker 1: But we got an interesting note from a guy who

632
00:41:53,880 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 1: is in a dispute with some people over his beaver

633
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:06,800
Speaker 1: trapping activities, and it's gotten heated and right now joining

634
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 1: us remotely from Michigan, my home state, the beaver trapping

635
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 1: country of Michigan is Josh Hagen. I want to ask

636
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 1: him some questions about his, uh, his experience here with

637
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:22,839
Speaker 1: within this case beaver trapper intimidation, trapping intimidation. Now, John,

638
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 1: in the interest of time, Josh, I want to run

639
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 1: through kind of the high level particulars and then you

640
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 1: correct me, uh if I screw some part up. Okay,

641
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 1: sounds good. So you are, your buddy owns property on

642
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 1: some lake. Your buddy owns property on lake in Michigan.

643
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 1: There's a big beaver colony on the lake with a

644
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 1: beaver lodge. Yeah, you guys go out and string a

645
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:56,479
Speaker 1: little steel and start catching some beavers. Yep. And then

646
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,919
Speaker 1: people start doing what to you or like, they start

647
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 1: doing the like people around the lake respond to this

648
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 1: by how by basically messing with our traps, breaking our

649
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 1: sticks that our traps are set in. They wrote us

650
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:15,239
Speaker 1: a little note one of the times kind of told

651
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 1: us broke broke the sticks and pulled basically the trap

652
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:20,800
Speaker 1: out of the water. Wrote us a little notes and

653
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 1: no more in the snow right next to the to

654
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:27,839
Speaker 1: the trap. And then the fourth and final time through

655
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 1: maybe a ten fifteen pound rock a little smaller than

656
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 1: a volleyball, threw it in the hole, set the trap off,

657
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: and actually the rock got jammed and stuck in the trap.

658
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 1: And you put out some trail cams in yeah, yep.

659
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:45,919
Speaker 1: So after after the rock incident, we put some trail

660
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 1: cams out to try and catch them because we had

661
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:50,919
Speaker 1: no idea who was doing it. We had a little

662
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 1: bit of an idea maybe who, but no hard evidence.

663
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 1: So we threw some trail cameras out and within twenty

664
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 1: four hours probably got three guys walking out to our

665
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 1: traps kind of looking at them, but they didn't they

666
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: didn't mess with the traps. They just kind of hung

667
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 1: out there and looked at the traps for a couple

668
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 1: of minutes. And do you feel that they knew you

669
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 1: had the trailer camp set up? Yeah? Yeah. One of

670
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:15,880
Speaker 1: the pictures he actually pointed at my trail camera. So

671
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 1: we set up too. We set up a Sellero trail

672
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: camera kind of off hidden a little bit, and then

673
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 1: we put a dummy camera right over the whole Our

674
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 1: thought was maybe keep their attention on the dummy camera

675
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 1: and then we'll we'll maybe get who's doing this on

676
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:34,959
Speaker 1: the other camera. Yea, And what's there? What's your best

677
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 1: understanding of what their gripe is That they like watching

678
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,799
Speaker 1: that they enjoy watching the beavers in the lake, and

679
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 1: they feel that these beavers should be off off limits.

680
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 1: They feel that no one should be able to mess

681
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:48,160
Speaker 1: with these beavers. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what we believe.

682
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:50,840
Speaker 1: They're grape as we are. In October, we kind of

683
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:53,280
Speaker 1: ran out there to do some recon of the beaver

684
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 1: beaver den and um ran into a few of the

685
00:44:56,680 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 1: neighbors who clearly didn't want us messing the beaver then.

686
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 1: So had a couple of conversations back in October with

687
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 1: a few of the neighbors back there. How has it

688
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:13,320
Speaker 1: been like when you called up fishing game to say, hey,

689
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:15,799
Speaker 1: we got this problem going on. What has been there

690
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 1: sort of what has been their attitude about it? Like,

691
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 1: have they suggested that want you just go and kinda

692
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:27,319
Speaker 1: go somewhere else and try to avoid friction. Actually, we

693
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,279
Speaker 1: actually when we got ahold of them, we had our

694
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 1: our traps pulled just we we kind of misunderstood one

695
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 1: of the rules of checking the traps every twenty four hours.

696
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 1: So she actually told us that we were in our

697
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 1: right and that that day go put the beaver traps

698
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:48,359
Speaker 1: back out there. Mhm, like encourage you to keep at it. Yep, Yeah,

699
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 1: she encouraged. Uh, told us like, have you run into

700
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,319
Speaker 1: any more problems, give me a call and I'll come

701
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 1: out and we'll come up with the game plan. Huh. Now,

702
00:45:57,760 --> 00:45:59,240
Speaker 1: this is what kind of the main thing I'm curious

703
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 1: about with this. A lot of like a lot of

704
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 1: times you go out, people want to go out and

705
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:07,880
Speaker 1: do stuff outside, like hunting fish or trapp in this case,

706
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 1: because like, um, some level of quietness, you know, of nature,

707
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 1: like solitude. You picture this particularly being convers solitary activity

708
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 1: in some way. But all of a sudden you're like

709
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 1: mired in this dispute with like a neighborhood h o

710
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 1: A y Uh. Did you feel compelled to keep at

711
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 1: it because you were interested in sort of like defending

712
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 1: your rights or did it still stay fun to do it,

713
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 1: you know, or did it become like not fun but

714
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 1: you didn't want to give up the terrorist wind, so

715
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 1: to speak, say a little bit of both. Are. It

716
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 1: was still fun, but then the other part was kind

717
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 1: of like, well, we don't want these these people to,

718
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 1: you know, to beat us, Like we were fairly confident

719
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 1: we're doing everything we should. So it took away from

720
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:01,840
Speaker 1: the on a little bit and kind of more morphed

721
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: into like we're not gonna let these people beat us

722
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 1: type thing. Yeah, like they're trying to intimidate you, and

723
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 1: you're in the right not be spooked off. Why do

724
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:14,919
Speaker 1: you guys set off trapping in the first place. We've

725
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 1: always been interested in it, so we've always talked about

726
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 1: doing it. Kind Of where we decided this year to

727
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 1: do it was they started to destroy damn my Buddy

728
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 1: Dance property. I think they dropped like four trees in

729
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks back in the fall. So that's

730
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:30,399
Speaker 1: kind of what let us pushed us into like, yeah,

731
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:33,280
Speaker 1: let's give this a try and see what happens. Um

732
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:38,319
Speaker 1: did some part of you everthink, man, these people like

733
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:42,759
Speaker 1: looking at these beavers obviously these beavers alone. Yeah, Yeah,

734
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 1: we we definitely went down that road of just is

735
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,359
Speaker 1: it worth it, Like we'll let the let them look

736
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:50,839
Speaker 1: at the beavers and we'll go on some public land

737
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 1: close by and and try and get into it. Um.

738
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 1: But once the CEO of the conservation officer called us

739
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:00,799
Speaker 1: kind of like made us to just keep doing it

740
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:03,440
Speaker 1: out there more. Um. Once she said that, you know,

741
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 1: we're good, We're good to be out there. Yeah, because

742
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 1: in a way, your CEO has to be able to

743
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 1: enforce the idea that it's stay owned wildlife, and you

744
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 1: wind up you kind of like inadvertently walked into a

745
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 1: little bit of a territorial battle where the state claims

746
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 1: ownership of the resource and sets the guidelines for extracting

747
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 1: the resource. And then you have kind of like a

748
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 1: vigilante group saying no, this resources in our custody, will

749
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 1: set the rules for it, and then they kind of

750
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 1: have to be like then it almost the beavers don't

751
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:48,880
Speaker 1: even matter. It almost becomes like this other conversation about

752
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 1: who owns it and who makes up the rules for it. Yeah, exactly.

753
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 1: You know, I would imagine, like you, you're a little

754
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 1: bit inadvertently wind up being sort of a pawn in

755
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 1: this much larger issue going on. I got a friend

756
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 1: has a ranch and he was explaining to a conservation officer.

757
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 1: He's talking about his elk. My friend saying, you know,

758
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 1: the guys you know, doing whatever always spooking my elk,

759
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:18,239
Speaker 1: And he said the Warden's like, come again, you have

760
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 1: to wonder too, like if you're conservation officer is also

761
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:29,279
Speaker 1: like aware of state funded mitigation efforts regarding beavers in

762
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 1: that area too, just like, well, yeah, i'd be great

763
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:33,879
Speaker 1: if you guys took a few out because every year

764
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,360
Speaker 1: in the spring we have to go live trap them

765
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 1: and then move those live traps to another body of

766
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 1: water where we drowned the beavers, which is not fun

767
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 1: for anybody. Yeah. Well, Josh, Matt, appreciate you coming on. Uh,

768
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 1: it was pretty interesting to read it. So, yeah, are

769
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:52,839
Speaker 1: you guys still plugging away out there? Is it kind

770
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 1: of like this is the smoke settled now? Oh? No,

771
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 1: we're out there. I'm not. When I get off here

772
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 1: with you guys, I'm gonna head out there and and

773
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 1: check the traps. So they're still out there. Hey, Josh,

774
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 1: if something else happens and transpires, you know, just let

775
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 1: me know. Yeah, I will absolutely. Yeah, they hanging on

776
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 1: the wall behind you. Is that like a it's like

777
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 1: a like an alcohol drinking Yeah, that's my fiance's it's

778
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 1: it's her little idea. I guess, I don't know. I

779
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 1: like it. She's making a bold statement about yeah yeah, yeah, yeah,

780
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:37,439
Speaker 1: all right, man, thanks a lot, appreciated, Thanks guys. Yeah.

781
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:40,760
Speaker 1: We had a duck hunting spot in high school and

782
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 1: in part of college in Missoula, and um, it was,

783
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 1: you know, like a fanned out section of the Clark Fork,

784
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:52,799
Speaker 1: the lower Clark Fork, and we'd set up on one

785
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 1: of these little stems of it, and every once in

786
00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:58,839
Speaker 1: a while we'd get an adjoining landowner that would come

787
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 1: out and her ask us and us why it was

788
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:03,440
Speaker 1: illegal to be there, and instead of dealing with it,

789
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:06,800
Speaker 1: we just pick up, you know, are like six half

790
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 1: sunken decoys that we had and walk out of there.

791
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:15,799
Speaker 1: And I called a Missoula conservation officer and let him

792
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:19,279
Speaker 1: know what was going on. And the officer that I

793
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:24,439
Speaker 1: talked to was like, yeah, yeah, He's like you're right,

794
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:27,280
Speaker 1: and he's like, but how good of a spot, isn't

795
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 1: you know? It's like, you know, that's almost too bad

796
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 1: it is. Yeah, I still want to tp that guy's house.

797
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:37,759
Speaker 1: If you're listening, you still live there, you know who

798
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 1: I'm talking about? Didn't Huey Lewis getting a big thing

799
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:43,439
Speaker 1: with spooking off duck hunters and whatnot. Remember this that

800
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 1: was on Mitchell Sleugh in the Bitter Rout and they

801
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:50,840
Speaker 1: they fixed that by baiting the slough um. So it

802
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 1: was illegal to duck hunt there because there was bait

803
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 1: present the Mitchell Slough Homeowners Association there and then but

804
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 1: this was on the lower Park Fork um, you know what,

805
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:07,239
Speaker 1: the and uh Kelly Island down there, which was like

806
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 1: for high school kids. You know, it's like you're pretty

807
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:13,080
Speaker 1: limited as far as like you don't have a lot

808
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 1: of stuff you don't have, you know, it's like none

809
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:20,239
Speaker 1: of us had chest waiters. It's like knee boots or

810
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:24,719
Speaker 1: hip hip boots, right, and it's like you're pretty no boats,

811
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 1: pretty limited, you know, so hip to be they cow

812
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:33,360
Speaker 1: segue us into our oil and gas deal. Spencer is

813
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:37,920
Speaker 1: not really bringing it this show. You know what's that like?

814
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 1: Name me a single thing? Oh no, the stuff about

815
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:48,319
Speaker 1: Phil's name, Phil's name, Yeah, but he didn't mean to

816
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:50,600
Speaker 1: do that. Couldn't have been more relevant. He didn't mean

817
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:55,759
Speaker 1: to do that. I just caught that. Uh, not really

818
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 1: bringing it, Spencer. If there's one thing somebody's gonna remember

819
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:05,360
Speaker 1: from this episode it's gonna be Horace Lever over Montana legislation. Fortunately. Yeah, Spencer,

820
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 1: he's just, I mean, just very recently, I thought he

821
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 1: was just an astounding personality. That's my fault to have

822
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:17,919
Speaker 1: on the show. Is happening, Spencer. I'm sorry, nfill rock

823
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 1: counting stories. He's got time. There's an hour left. St

824
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:25,800
Speaker 1: co in with something. There's been so much good content,

825
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:27,759
Speaker 1: I don't need to interrupt it with yeah, with some

826
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 1: lower level yeah, but yeah, you're sophisticated. Hosting might be

827
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:36,600
Speaker 1: just your silence, just existing. He's doing a good job

828
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:39,880
Speaker 1: by not talking. Yeah, it's it's restraint and maybe some

829
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:42,840
Speaker 1: people in this room could you know, you learn something.

830
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 1: He's not like look at me, look at me. It's

831
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:48,759
Speaker 1: not his style. Yeah, I like it. Cal Segue is

832
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:52,000
Speaker 1: into talking about the whole planet being covered up in

833
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:58,839
Speaker 1: wind farms and whatnot. Yeah. So you know, recently, real

834
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:01,920
Speaker 1: interesting or repel looking congressman out of the state Idaho

835
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:07,240
Speaker 1: put together a package that outlines a kind of grand

836
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:16,479
Speaker 1: scamand careful with the word slip grand skiing. I gotta

837
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:20,440
Speaker 1: owe some people apologies on that one. That would remove

838
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:23,560
Speaker 1: the lower Snake River dams, the four lower Snake River

839
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:27,879
Speaker 1: dams on behalf largely of of salmon, is the way

840
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 1: it's pitched. And that is a really interesting topic. As

841
00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:37,840
Speaker 1: we started talking about green energy, and we'll be getting

842
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 1: into that damn removal. Damn right, Oh, cute quick thing.

843
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:46,839
Speaker 1: This funny. What's the name of that writer? It is

844
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:49,840
Speaker 1: Kemmy Larson. Yeah, I got a book for my kids

845
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 1: called Beavers. What's the book called Beaver's damn Friends. Beaver's

846
00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:56,960
Speaker 1: damn Friends, Beavers. It's about this beavers, real lonely and

847
00:54:57,160 --> 00:55:00,120
Speaker 1: uh Alice says, built a damn make a pond. So

848
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:01,919
Speaker 1: he makes a pond and all kinds of people start

849
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 1: showing up, frogs, fish, birds, whatnot. And then he's not

850
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:08,600
Speaker 1: lonely anymore. And my kids like it because the last

851
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:11,920
Speaker 1: line of the book is about it says, now Beaver's

852
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:17,080
Speaker 1: got a lot of damn friends, and there's old dad

853
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:27,560
Speaker 1: walking in with this trap. This friend Beaver's got a

854
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:29,560
Speaker 1: lot of you know, Benny, the Beaver's got a lot

855
00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 1: of damn friends gone. So you know, as we you know,

856
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 1: really begin our path with this new administration, green energy

857
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:42,880
Speaker 1: is a major topic and we're damns meant to be

858
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:44,880
Speaker 1: green energy at a time, because we weren't having that

859
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:47,799
Speaker 1: conversation back then. No, we really weren't. Well, I mean,

860
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:50,440
Speaker 1: very few people were having that conversation. The research that

861
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 1: I've done, it's kind of shocking how none of these

862
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:58,920
Speaker 1: conservation ideas are are original now they're just really taking

863
00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:02,239
Speaker 1: hold now. So there's always somebody being like, you know,

864
00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:06,439
Speaker 1: if we put in you know, if we do enough

865
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:11,240
Speaker 1: blasting with dynamite here than all the previous world wars

866
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:15,600
Speaker 1: and build a dam that may affect upward travel of

867
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:19,400
Speaker 1: salmon it and I think it would be bad. And

868
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:24,080
Speaker 1: they were like, everybody needs jobs right now, and flood

869
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:28,080
Speaker 1: control is a necessary thing, and agriculture is a necessary thing.

870
00:56:29,239 --> 00:56:32,400
Speaker 1: We'll deal with the fish thing later. So people when

871
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:34,759
Speaker 1: they're building all these giant dams and and kind of

872
00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:38,600
Speaker 1: like destroying the world's largest like Salmon River in the

873
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:43,400
Speaker 1: Columbia drainage, um, people had to have been like, but

874
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:46,719
Speaker 1: what about the fish? Yes, but there's no way, I

875
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:49,200
Speaker 1: mean obviously not. There's no way there was ever any

876
00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:57,840
Speaker 1: conversation about fossil fuel like climate issues, fossil fuels, certainly

877
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:00,840
Speaker 1: nothing that's the sinct that I've ever come across. But

878
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 1: does anybody now are people that have like an ulterior

879
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:08,680
Speaker 1: motive or that like damns okay, that want that there's

880
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:12,400
Speaker 1: gonna be like pro damn people out there do the

881
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:14,840
Speaker 1: are the pro This is as much for Nels as

882
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:18,200
Speaker 1: this for you are the pro Damn is the pro

883
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:22,800
Speaker 1: damn lobby, whatever form it's in are They like, I

884
00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:26,400
Speaker 1: got you. It's clean energy, bro, I haven't not burning

885
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:30,160
Speaker 1: We're not burning oil. From a uh an employee at

886
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:36,080
Speaker 1: Bonneville Power saying there is nothing more green than hydro

887
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:41,160
Speaker 1: electric power. M hmm. I like them when people latch

888
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:43,440
Speaker 1: onto that nothing that. I like them when people when

889
00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:47,160
Speaker 1: it was like an argument sort of presents itself in

890
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:50,680
Speaker 1: a kind of fortuitous way. We're all of a sudden

891
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:52,640
Speaker 1: you're like, yeah, things aren't looking good for this damn

892
00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 1: this whole salmon thing. Yeah, and they're like ha ha suckers.

893
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:05,720
Speaker 1: The water moves through and energy, right, that's it hit

894
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 1: us with that Nels. Alright, well, so there is green energy,

895
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:12,640
Speaker 1: but you know we need to take a step back.

896
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:17,040
Speaker 1: Well we should think about clean energy is maybe the

897
00:58:17,080 --> 00:58:20,160
Speaker 1: better term. And then the question is can we make

898
00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:24,760
Speaker 1: clean energy green? And you know where we put energy,

899
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:27,720
Speaker 1: how we develop energy, even if it's clean, can have

900
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:33,200
Speaker 1: environmental impacts. So hydro is probably the most clear example

901
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:37,840
Speaker 1: of what's a clean energy technology that's not exactly always green,

902
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:43,600
Speaker 1: right because of blocking rivers and and ending uh and

903
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:47,040
Speaker 1: Drameda's fish runs like the salmon in the in the Columbia.

904
00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:50,160
Speaker 1: So you know, what we're really interested in in the

905
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:54,680
Speaker 1: Nature Conservancy is how do we develop clean energy? There

906
00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:58,280
Speaker 1: really is green that really ovoids and minimizes impacts the

907
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:02,480
Speaker 1: environment to habitats, to wildlife too, people. Um, And so

908
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:05,560
Speaker 1: that's what we're really interested in. So that word, uh,

909
00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:10,320
Speaker 1: the word I never teld this second thought of the

910
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:13,440
Speaker 1: difference between clean energy and green energy. Did did the

911
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:17,840
Speaker 1: word green energy come about sort of as a way

912
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:22,680
Speaker 1: that to to to to cause a kind of reckoning

913
00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 1: between renewable energy resources and its impact on the environment.

914
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:32,560
Speaker 1: Was like, was that word made up? Was that word coined?

915
00:59:33,080 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 1: Because there's this kind of friction. Well, I don't know

916
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:40,120
Speaker 1: that that friction really existed ten and twenty years ago,

917
00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:44,479
Speaker 1: because we hadn't developed all that much clean or green

918
00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:47,520
Speaker 1: energy that except for hydro, and a lot of that

919
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:49,480
Speaker 1: goes back to the thirties, right, I mean the reason

920
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:52,000
Speaker 1: why we didn't care about the fish so much in

921
00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:55,920
Speaker 1: the Columbia during the Great Depression is because people were starving.

922
00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:59,120
Speaker 1: I mean no, people had no money. Uh, people had

923
00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:03,560
Speaker 1: no electricity in rural areas, and so the dams that

924
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:07,520
Speaker 1: were built um in the Columbia weren't partly you know,

925
01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:12,280
Speaker 1: a job's creation program an economic improvement program, and people

926
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:14,800
Speaker 1: thought that tradeoff was worth making back then. And now

927
01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:18,400
Speaker 1: we have a different view of that tradeoff and we

928
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:21,440
Speaker 1: have a greater appreciation how profound that tradeoff is. Right.

929
01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:25,760
Speaker 1: I mean, salmon species that have evolved that have you know,

930
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:29,200
Speaker 1: migrated up the Columbia and the snake rivers to you

931
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:36,040
Speaker 1: know spawn way up into the rockies in Idaho are

932
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:38,200
Speaker 1: winking out. I mean they're just they're on the verge

933
01:00:38,720 --> 01:00:41,360
Speaker 1: being extirpated. They've been there for hundreds of thousands of

934
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:43,960
Speaker 1: years and now sudden they're about to be gone. So,

935
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:46,439
Speaker 1: you know, we need to think about the concert. There's

936
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:48,760
Speaker 1: no free lunch when it comes to energy. Regardless of

937
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:53,160
Speaker 1: the energy type, clean energy included. Uh, every form of

938
01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:56,920
Speaker 1: energy with a possible exception of efficiency is going to

939
01:00:57,000 --> 01:01:00,240
Speaker 1: have some sort of impact, and we need to Hey,

940
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:03,960
Speaker 1: what those impacts are so that we make trade offs

941
01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:07,560
Speaker 1: that we think are acceptable. Are you familiar with the

942
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:14,720
Speaker 1: intellectual exercise of saying, um, we would never have won

943
01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:20,120
Speaker 1: World War Two if it wasn't for the beaute copper mine. Right,

944
01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:25,360
Speaker 1: There's one that goes, um, we won World War two

945
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:32,760
Speaker 1: because we were able to smell aluminum better than Germany,

946
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:37,040
Speaker 1: because we had all those big ass damns that it

947
01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:40,000
Speaker 1: was like, there's like an electricity bottleneck, and we were

948
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:43,760
Speaker 1: able to outproduce aircraft. I don't know if I'm doing

949
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:47,439
Speaker 1: this right, but I've heard this. Yeah, I haven't heard

950
01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:49,600
Speaker 1: that one, but you know, I can imagine that being

951
01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:54,600
Speaker 1: a legitimate argument. That's interesting. How far those uh you know,

952
01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:58,760
Speaker 1: how how far can it damn fall? Yeah, And it's

953
01:01:58,840 --> 01:02:03,000
Speaker 1: and it's sort of public perception. But one interesting thing

954
01:02:03,040 --> 01:02:05,479
Speaker 1: about the whole damn thing is, you know, it used

955
01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:09,920
Speaker 1: to be the cheapest form of electricity out there anywhere

956
01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:12,320
Speaker 1: in the planet. Pretty much. Hydro was the cheapest thing.

957
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:15,320
Speaker 1: It's not anymore. The cheapest thing in the world today

958
01:02:15,400 --> 01:02:20,120
Speaker 1: is solar and wind. Really yeah, so, uh, most of

959
01:02:20,120 --> 01:02:24,440
Speaker 1: the United States right now, solar and wind go for

960
01:02:24,640 --> 01:02:28,760
Speaker 1: three to six cents per kilowatt hour natural gas and

961
01:02:28,960 --> 01:02:32,240
Speaker 1: coal or between five and seventeen cents per kilowatt hour

962
01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:37,200
Speaker 1: hydro is somewhere in between. UM, So it's still pretty cheap.

963
01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:38,640
Speaker 1: And hit me with hit me with that again. I

964
01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:44,480
Speaker 1: understand like you're saying, that's what it costs to produce,

965
01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:47,360
Speaker 1: to produce a kilowatt hour of But isn't it more

966
01:02:47,600 --> 01:02:51,200
Speaker 1: isn't haven't we made it that it's more valuable to

967
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:57,320
Speaker 1: the producer depending on how the producer is making it. Uh,

968
01:02:57,760 --> 01:02:59,560
Speaker 1: Like they sell it, they get it, they get a

969
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:05,560
Speaker 1: related rate to encourage renewables. Now, I mean, most energy

970
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 1: markets in the the United States are extremely competitive today. So

971
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:12,280
Speaker 1: you know that, you know, utilities put out a call

972
01:03:12,520 --> 01:03:20,000
Speaker 1: for proposals to build the next generation of energy producing sources.

973
01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:26,440
Speaker 1: And you know, the best packages coming into a lot

974
01:03:26,440 --> 01:03:30,720
Speaker 1: of utilities these days are wind and solar or a

975
01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:34,320
Speaker 1: combination of the two, usually paired with storage some storage

976
01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:37,680
Speaker 1: of some type. UM And that's you know, you know,

977
01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:44,480
Speaker 1: Xcel Energy. Uh in Colorado. They also have another major

978
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:49,960
Speaker 1: territory in the Midwest. Most of what they've you know,

979
01:03:50,120 --> 01:03:52,600
Speaker 1: put out there has come back as wind and solar.

980
01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:57,280
Speaker 1: That's been the most competitive and so of all new

981
01:03:57,320 --> 01:04:01,000
Speaker 1: additions to the electric generating fleet last year where either

982
01:04:01,120 --> 01:04:04,360
Speaker 1: wind or solar kind of split almost in half, solar

983
01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:09,120
Speaker 1: actually outpacing wind for the first time. UM, you know,

984
01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:12,160
Speaker 1: and just again, why is this happening? Well, part of it,

985
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:15,520
Speaker 1: of course is we are concerned about climate change, but

986
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:19,600
Speaker 1: economics is really a huge driver of this. Solar costs

987
01:04:19,800 --> 01:04:27,120
Speaker 1: have gone down in a decade. So that's because of

988
01:04:27,160 --> 01:04:33,160
Speaker 1: technological improvements, getting more and more experience with deploying UH

989
01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:37,080
Speaker 1: and setting up systems UH. You know, if you build

990
01:04:37,120 --> 01:04:39,920
Speaker 1: a coal plant, it will take years to get the

991
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:45,240
Speaker 1: coal plant online. If you develop a wind project or

992
01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:48,520
Speaker 1: a solar project, you can get that thing online after

993
01:04:48,520 --> 01:04:51,919
Speaker 1: it's permitted in six months or at most a year,

994
01:04:52,520 --> 01:04:56,640
Speaker 1: So it comes online much faster than than the forms

995
01:04:56,640 --> 01:04:59,200
Speaker 1: of energy that it's replaces. So that that's one way

996
01:04:59,240 --> 01:05:03,920
Speaker 1: where the UH start up costs start to even out right,

997
01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:07,600
Speaker 1: Because one argument that that I see over and over again,

998
01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:12,480
Speaker 1: right is like the cost of the shafts, the blades

999
01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:18,280
Speaker 1: of those wind turbines, UM, the you know, the the

1000
01:05:18,360 --> 01:05:24,800
Speaker 1: cost of the solar farms in UM, you know, materials

1001
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:28,720
Speaker 1: that are mined out of the earth UH and then

1002
01:05:28,800 --> 01:05:35,240
Speaker 1: compared to what we have in in the superstructure that

1003
01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:39,640
Speaker 1: we have currently, right, and like dams, think about like

1004
01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:42,960
Speaker 1: a modern damn, what a modern dam would cost to

1005
01:05:43,240 --> 01:05:50,640
Speaker 1: build currently versus you know, I believe the upgrading um

1006
01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:55,360
Speaker 1: the hydroelectric capabilities of some of these damns is also

1007
01:05:55,400 --> 01:05:59,440
Speaker 1: in the tune of billions of dollars to modernize them

1008
01:05:59,480 --> 01:06:04,520
Speaker 1: and get them where they need to be. I'm looking

1009
01:06:04,520 --> 01:06:10,240
Speaker 1: at a thing right here. UM solar and wind power

1010
01:06:11,480 --> 01:06:20,320
Speaker 1: need forty to fifty times more surface space than coal

1011
01:06:20,400 --> 01:06:26,320
Speaker 1: and gas. So solar and wind power needs around forty

1012
01:06:26,720 --> 01:06:30,240
Speaker 1: times more space than coal and nine times more space

1013
01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:34,720
Speaker 1: than gas. Is that is that? That's that's roughly right.

1014
01:06:35,480 --> 01:06:43,280
Speaker 1: So to power our whole country and UM solar would

1015
01:06:43,280 --> 01:06:48,480
Speaker 1: mean that we have eight million acres of solar farms. Yeah,

1016
01:06:48,600 --> 01:06:52,680
Speaker 1: that's that's yeah, that's consistent with our That does that

1017
01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:56,560
Speaker 1: intimidate you? Well, you know how many millions of acres

1018
01:06:56,600 --> 01:06:58,960
Speaker 1: are there in the United States? Just even you know,

1019
01:06:59,040 --> 01:07:02,240
Speaker 1: so I don't know that number is offhand, but just

1020
01:07:02,360 --> 01:07:05,240
Speaker 1: but just take the Bureau of Land Management, the largest

1021
01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:08,440
Speaker 1: landowning public agency in the United States. You know, they

1022
01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:12,040
Speaker 1: have about two hundred and fifty million acres, so it's

1023
01:07:12,080 --> 01:07:15,440
Speaker 1: a small fraction of that. The question, Steve, really is

1024
01:07:15,440 --> 01:07:18,600
Speaker 1: where does it go? You know, if we put not

1025
01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:21,920
Speaker 1: in my backyard. Argument, well, there's not in my backyard.

1026
01:07:22,000 --> 01:07:26,280
Speaker 1: But you know, we'd like to encourage up upfront planning

1027
01:07:26,400 --> 01:07:28,960
Speaker 1: at a landscape scale before we decide where to put

1028
01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:32,120
Speaker 1: this stuff. So some of the first big, really big

1029
01:07:32,160 --> 01:07:36,280
Speaker 1: solar projects Ivan Paw for example, right on the Nevada

1030
01:07:36,400 --> 01:07:38,320
Speaker 1: California line. I don't know if you've ever proven I

1031
01:07:38,480 --> 01:07:41,880
Speaker 1: fifty north of l A on the way to Las Vegas. Right,

1032
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:45,040
Speaker 1: you see these towers that are several hundred feet in

1033
01:07:45,080 --> 01:07:49,200
Speaker 1: the air with thousands of you know, solar mirrors all

1034
01:07:49,240 --> 01:07:52,960
Speaker 1: pointing at the top of those towers beating you know,

1035
01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:56,360
Speaker 1: this sunlight, so it can hit a temperature several thousand

1036
01:07:56,440 --> 01:08:00,640
Speaker 1: degrees the time. I mean, it's like a sun at

1037
01:08:00,680 --> 01:08:04,000
Speaker 1: the top of this tower. I mean, pilots have to

1038
01:08:04,080 --> 01:08:08,000
Speaker 1: fly around these things because they're so bright because of

1039
01:08:08,040 --> 01:08:13,040
Speaker 1: these thousands of solar rays um and uh and in fact,

1040
01:08:13,040 --> 01:08:16,880
Speaker 1: if birds fly through those, those rays of sunlight that

1041
01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:21,520
Speaker 1: are concentrated going up to the tower just basically vaporized.

1042
01:08:21,880 --> 01:08:25,599
Speaker 1: But the problem with that project is where it went,

1043
01:08:26,280 --> 01:08:29,479
Speaker 1: it went into an area that was really important for

1044
01:08:30,439 --> 01:08:33,600
Speaker 1: desert tortoise, which is an endangered species, and it also

1045
01:08:34,479 --> 01:08:37,599
Speaker 1: uh is in an area that is important for desert

1046
01:08:37,600 --> 01:08:41,120
Speaker 1: bighorn sheep. So you know, we didn't have the information

1047
01:08:41,160 --> 01:08:43,120
Speaker 1: we should have used at that point to figure out

1048
01:08:43,160 --> 01:08:45,880
Speaker 1: where that project goes. I think the point is is

1049
01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:49,559
Speaker 1: that we have more than enough room across the United

1050
01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:52,080
Speaker 1: States of what we would call low impact places that

1051
01:08:52,160 --> 01:08:56,280
Speaker 1: will have minimal conflicts with habitats, wildlife, and people that

1052
01:08:56,360 --> 01:08:58,479
Speaker 1: we could put this stuff. But we've got to think

1053
01:08:58,520 --> 01:09:01,479
Speaker 1: about it up front. And so that's what we're trying

1054
01:09:01,479 --> 01:09:04,200
Speaker 1: to do is help figure out where are the best

1055
01:09:04,240 --> 01:09:07,559
Speaker 1: places for this energy to go. So one project we

1056
01:09:07,600 --> 01:09:11,400
Speaker 1: have is called Mining the Sun. Right, so there are

1057
01:09:11,560 --> 01:09:16,120
Speaker 1: forty three million acres of mine lands and brown fields

1058
01:09:16,160 --> 01:09:19,400
Speaker 1: across the United States. E p A has a program

1059
01:09:19,400 --> 01:09:23,080
Speaker 1: called the Repowering Program, which is inventory these sites. And

1060
01:09:23,120 --> 01:09:26,120
Speaker 1: so what we're doing is trying to figure out how

1061
01:09:26,120 --> 01:09:29,400
Speaker 1: do we unlock these places and get renewable energy to

1062
01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:33,200
Speaker 1: go on those acres instead of out in what we

1063
01:09:33,280 --> 01:09:36,479
Speaker 1: call a green field situation, right, a natural environment in

1064
01:09:36,479 --> 01:09:39,840
Speaker 1: the middle of the Maave Desert. Interesting like doing like

1065
01:09:39,960 --> 01:09:43,639
Speaker 1: super fun sites and quarries and stuff. Yeah, or minds.

1066
01:09:43,680 --> 01:09:46,080
Speaker 1: I mean, so, for example, we're work in Nevada. Actually

1067
01:09:46,080 --> 01:09:51,080
Speaker 1: with the Nevada Mining Association. We've gotten some regulations changed

1068
01:09:51,120 --> 01:09:55,879
Speaker 1: to encourage renewable development to go online sites in Nevada.

1069
01:09:56,040 --> 01:09:59,160
Speaker 1: You know, it's the biggest hold uranium minds, well, copper

1070
01:09:59,240 --> 01:10:02,600
Speaker 1: minds still her minds, you know, they're Nevada is the

1071
01:10:02,600 --> 01:10:06,880
Speaker 1: biggest hard rock mining state in the country. Montana's up there,

1072
01:10:06,880 --> 01:10:10,680
Speaker 1: it's third or fourth maybe after Arizona. Uh. Then we're

1073
01:10:10,680 --> 01:10:13,439
Speaker 1: also working in West Virginia, and there we're looking at

1074
01:10:13,479 --> 01:10:17,320
Speaker 1: coal fields. Um. You know, there's you know, hundreds of

1075
01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:21,720
Speaker 1: thousands of acres of former uh coal fields in West

1076
01:10:21,800 --> 01:10:24,840
Speaker 1: Virginia that used to be mountains that were blasted off

1077
01:10:24,880 --> 01:10:28,439
Speaker 1: and leveled and and now there's no economic activity going

1078
01:10:28,479 --> 01:10:31,719
Speaker 1: on there. There's no jobs anymore there. What about putting

1079
01:10:31,760 --> 01:10:35,200
Speaker 1: renewable energy there? You know. The great thing about focusing,

1080
01:10:35,240 --> 01:10:37,320
Speaker 1: we've got to have either a shipload of wind or

1081
01:10:37,320 --> 01:10:41,240
Speaker 1: a shipload of sun, right, And what happens when there's

1082
01:10:41,400 --> 01:10:45,080
Speaker 1: no sun and no wind? Well true, and that's why

1083
01:10:45,120 --> 01:10:47,639
Speaker 1: we need to look at the whole country in terms

1084
01:10:47,640 --> 01:10:50,040
Speaker 1: of where we put this stuff. I mean, the bigger

1085
01:10:50,120 --> 01:10:54,720
Speaker 1: the field of view we have, the more complementary we

1086
01:10:54,760 --> 01:10:57,840
Speaker 1: can have wind and so because it's cloudy here one day,

1087
01:10:57,880 --> 01:11:01,960
Speaker 1: but it's sunny, you know, hundred miles away where it's

1088
01:11:02,040 --> 01:11:06,360
Speaker 1: windy uh in this place now, but it's calm over there.

1089
01:11:06,439 --> 01:11:09,040
Speaker 1: And so you know, if we have a big enough

1090
01:11:09,120 --> 01:11:11,240
Speaker 1: field of view, we can integrate a lot of this stuff.

1091
01:11:11,240 --> 01:11:13,880
Speaker 1: And then we need other things. We need storage, we

1092
01:11:13,920 --> 01:11:16,920
Speaker 1: need some other energy technologies that can do some baseload.

1093
01:11:17,360 --> 01:11:22,080
Speaker 1: That's why keeping, for example, existing nuclear online is important.

1094
01:11:22,120 --> 01:11:25,959
Speaker 1: You know, about twenty of our energy today is nuclear?

1095
01:11:26,240 --> 01:11:29,519
Speaker 1: Is it real? Well, it's maybe about eighteen now because

1096
01:11:29,520 --> 01:11:31,599
Speaker 1: a couple of plants of clothes in the last few years,

1097
01:11:31,600 --> 01:11:33,920
Speaker 1: but it's but it's still a big chunk of our

1098
01:11:33,960 --> 01:11:39,599
Speaker 1: electricity generating capacity and it's essentially carbon free. The problem

1099
01:11:39,640 --> 01:11:43,280
Speaker 1: with any you're probably gonna get there. But I mean,

1100
01:11:43,320 --> 01:11:51,240
Speaker 1: are we doing is anybody eyeballling um adding nuclear facilities

1101
01:11:51,280 --> 01:11:54,559
Speaker 1: online or is it all that they're just all destined

1102
01:11:54,560 --> 01:11:59,920
Speaker 1: to phase out? We also uh N nine three my

1103
01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:05,759
Speaker 1: all island happened in the forty years since then, there's

1104
01:12:05,800 --> 01:12:10,800
Speaker 1: been one facility added that's it Watts Bar in Tennessee

1105
01:12:10,880 --> 01:12:15,479
Speaker 1: in and that's the only new nuclear facility built in

1106
01:12:15,479 --> 01:12:19,280
Speaker 1: the United States since Three Mile Island. And there's another

1107
01:12:19,320 --> 01:12:21,599
Speaker 1: one that's being built in Georgia right now that's supposed

1108
01:12:21,640 --> 01:12:24,800
Speaker 1: to come online later this year. And those those plants

1109
01:12:24,840 --> 01:12:27,479
Speaker 1: are essentially the same technology we've had for the last

1110
01:12:27,520 --> 01:12:30,920
Speaker 1: sixty years. Uh. There are lots of enhancements, of course,

1111
01:12:30,920 --> 01:12:34,639
Speaker 1: because of of concerns we've had because of Three Mile Island,

1112
01:12:34,680 --> 01:12:38,000
Speaker 1: Fukushiv and other things, but essentially it's the same technology

1113
01:12:38,200 --> 01:12:41,400
Speaker 1: and UM and we have about how I don't know

1114
01:12:41,439 --> 01:12:46,479
Speaker 1: what the exact number is, somewhere around sixty existing nuclear

1115
01:12:46,520 --> 01:12:50,320
Speaker 1: plants across the country. Most of those were built in

1116
01:12:50,320 --> 01:12:54,439
Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies, so they're kind of approaching the end

1117
01:12:54,479 --> 01:12:57,639
Speaker 1: of their original planned lives. But you know, I think

1118
01:12:58,040 --> 01:13:01,720
Speaker 1: there are ways to keep them going longer, and I

1119
01:13:01,760 --> 01:13:05,360
Speaker 1: think utilities are doing that where they can. So I think,

1120
01:13:05,400 --> 01:13:07,720
Speaker 1: you know, one of one of the if you will,

1121
01:13:07,760 --> 01:13:10,360
Speaker 1: the building blocks of our clean energy future needs to

1122
01:13:10,360 --> 01:13:15,559
Speaker 1: be keeping existing nuclear in the fleet as long as

1123
01:13:15,560 --> 01:13:18,200
Speaker 1: it's safe, uh and as long as it's at least

1124
01:13:18,280 --> 01:13:22,519
Speaker 1: reasonably economic to do so. UM. That is going to

1125
01:13:22,680 --> 01:13:27,880
Speaker 1: be one of many solutions that we need. There's no

1126
01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:31,120
Speaker 1: silver bullet. There is no one technology that's going to

1127
01:13:31,240 --> 01:13:34,520
Speaker 1: save us. We need to combine a lot of technologies,

1128
01:13:34,520 --> 01:13:36,160
Speaker 1: some of which have been around for a long time

1129
01:13:36,200 --> 01:13:40,599
Speaker 1: and some of what you're totally new. Were you, Well,

1130
01:13:41,000 --> 01:13:42,920
Speaker 1: I was gonna ask let me ask you different thing first,

1131
01:13:43,120 --> 01:13:44,960
Speaker 1: just to t up. I was gonna ask you about

1132
01:13:44,960 --> 01:13:47,880
Speaker 1: whether you were surprised when GM made their announcement about

1133
01:13:47,880 --> 01:13:51,400
Speaker 1: all electric No, not really, Okay, we'll get to that

1134
01:13:51,400 --> 01:13:57,200
Speaker 1: in a minute. Uh So the Biden administration, like, what's there?

1135
01:13:57,280 --> 01:13:59,280
Speaker 1: They have a more They put in a moratorium on

1136
01:14:00,880 --> 01:14:03,759
Speaker 1: new oil and gas leases on public land. Is that correct?

1137
01:14:04,600 --> 01:14:06,759
Speaker 1: That's correct? And that's what it is, like a moratory

1138
01:14:06,800 --> 01:14:11,360
Speaker 1: about issuing new ones its federal lands. And yeah, my

1139
01:14:11,479 --> 01:14:14,320
Speaker 1: understanding is it's leases. It's not permits that have already

1140
01:14:14,320 --> 01:14:20,080
Speaker 1: been issued, right, so it would be new leases. Yeah. Um,

1141
01:14:20,240 --> 01:14:25,800
Speaker 1: do you imagine a future I'm not so much asking

1142
01:14:25,840 --> 01:14:28,680
Speaker 1: if you like would like to see it, but do

1143
01:14:28,760 --> 01:14:34,519
Speaker 1: you imagine a future where we have a lot of um, federal,

1144
01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:44,240
Speaker 1: federally managed public lands that are given over to renewable energies, Like,

1145
01:14:44,360 --> 01:14:47,680
Speaker 1: is that part of the mix. Yeah, it could be

1146
01:14:47,680 --> 01:14:50,000
Speaker 1: part of the mix. Yes. Um, Again, we have to

1147
01:14:50,040 --> 01:14:53,040
Speaker 1: look at what the value of those lands are. They're

1148
01:14:53,080 --> 01:14:55,759
Speaker 1: not all the same. I mean, Bureau of Land Management,

1149
01:14:55,800 --> 01:14:59,760
Speaker 1: for example, you know, has extensive areas that have been

1150
01:14:59,840 --> 01:15:04,200
Speaker 1: to graded through different processes. Mining of courses is one

1151
01:15:04,240 --> 01:15:07,440
Speaker 1: of those. And we think those places may be good candidates.

1152
01:15:07,439 --> 01:15:11,240
Speaker 1: In fact, we worked with the BLM five and six

1153
01:15:11,280 --> 01:15:13,320
Speaker 1: and seven years ago to create what was called the

1154
01:15:13,360 --> 01:15:17,639
Speaker 1: Southwest Solar Plan, where we looked across you know, six

1155
01:15:17,840 --> 01:15:23,160
Speaker 1: southwestern states. We looked across BLM lands and where are

1156
01:15:23,240 --> 01:15:28,880
Speaker 1: the places that development of solar or wind or geothermal

1157
01:15:28,960 --> 01:15:33,240
Speaker 1: for that matter would have relatively low impact. And and

1158
01:15:33,360 --> 01:15:37,840
Speaker 1: the BLM designated what we're called solar energy zones, and

1159
01:15:37,880 --> 01:15:40,439
Speaker 1: they've also been called development focus areas, but they're kind

1160
01:15:40,439 --> 01:15:45,240
Speaker 1: of zones where there would be relatively little impact to

1161
01:15:45,280 --> 01:15:48,920
Speaker 1: the habitat or to wildlife and that we would facilitate

1162
01:15:49,080 --> 01:15:52,479
Speaker 1: development there. And Congress passed something called the Omnibus, which

1163
01:15:52,520 --> 01:15:55,320
Speaker 1: is kind of the funding bill to keep government going

1164
01:15:55,439 --> 01:15:58,280
Speaker 1: back in I guess it was December, and part of

1165
01:15:58,320 --> 01:16:02,120
Speaker 1: that bill includes an editor g subtitle, and within that

1166
01:16:02,280 --> 01:16:06,320
Speaker 1: there's a a goal now for the federal government to

1167
01:16:06,479 --> 01:16:13,439
Speaker 1: develop twenty five gigawatts of renewable energy on essentially BLM Lands.

1168
01:16:13,479 --> 01:16:16,680
Speaker 1: And you know, just a little definition here. Gigawatt is

1169
01:16:16,720 --> 01:16:21,479
Speaker 1: a thousand megawatts, So a thousand megawatts or one gigawat,

1170
01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:24,599
Speaker 1: you know, used to be kind of a typical size

1171
01:16:24,600 --> 01:16:27,679
Speaker 1: of a power plant, a coal power plant or nuclear

1172
01:16:27,720 --> 01:16:31,080
Speaker 1: power plant. Not so much anymore because those economies of

1173
01:16:31,120 --> 01:16:33,920
Speaker 1: scale are less important for natural gas, solar way and

1174
01:16:34,000 --> 01:16:37,120
Speaker 1: other energy technologies. But that's roughly the way you can

1175
01:16:37,160 --> 01:16:41,680
Speaker 1: think of it. So twenty five large power plants. Uh.

1176
01:16:41,800 --> 01:16:44,000
Speaker 1: The goal is over the next four years on on

1177
01:16:44,080 --> 01:16:47,640
Speaker 1: BLM lands again, you know, that would be you know,

1178
01:16:47,880 --> 01:16:50,559
Speaker 1: a few hundred thousand acres out of you know again,

1179
01:16:50,600 --> 01:16:54,000
Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty million. We're pretty confident we can

1180
01:16:54,080 --> 01:17:00,479
Speaker 1: find low impact areas that could accommodate that twenty five gigawatts. Um,

1181
01:17:00,560 --> 01:17:02,800
Speaker 1: but you know, we need to be thoughtful, We need

1182
01:17:02,840 --> 01:17:15,920
Speaker 1: to be careful about when we quit news. Can we

1183
01:17:16,040 --> 01:17:19,799
Speaker 1: just go back for a sect to what you said, Steve,

1184
01:17:19,880 --> 01:17:24,160
Speaker 1: with the amount of surface area of the country or

1185
01:17:24,320 --> 01:17:27,840
Speaker 1: you know, eventually the planet to be covered. So when

1186
01:17:27,880 --> 01:17:31,080
Speaker 1: I spoke to you before, um, you said we are

1187
01:17:31,479 --> 01:17:38,599
Speaker 1: between now and probably we're about into our build out

1188
01:17:39,240 --> 01:17:43,000
Speaker 1: of of space and that we would you can pick

1189
01:17:43,120 --> 01:17:48,400
Speaker 1: up you said, a footprint from the size of Maine

1190
01:17:48,600 --> 01:17:58,320
Speaker 1: to potentially Texas. Yeah, so just that's that's essentially right, Karen. Um.

1191
01:17:58,400 --> 01:18:02,760
Speaker 1: We're roughly ten I mean maybe into where we're gonna

1192
01:18:02,800 --> 01:18:06,760
Speaker 1: go with the build out, which is it's inevitably going

1193
01:18:06,800 --> 01:18:09,920
Speaker 1: to come. You know, the question is how fast does

1194
01:18:09,960 --> 01:18:13,000
Speaker 1: it happen and how careful are we about? But you

1195
01:18:13,040 --> 01:18:18,720
Speaker 1: don't think that the technology might act that in half?

1196
01:18:18,720 --> 01:18:23,200
Speaker 1: It could, Yeah, I mean it's possible. I mean, you know,

1197
01:18:23,320 --> 01:18:27,240
Speaker 1: we can. We have to deal with the data and

1198
01:18:27,400 --> 01:18:30,360
Speaker 1: information we have and make our best guesses. One of

1199
01:18:30,439 --> 01:18:33,320
Speaker 1: the reasons why we give a range in terms of

1200
01:18:33,320 --> 01:18:36,080
Speaker 1: what the spatial impact could be main being at the

1201
01:18:36,120 --> 01:18:40,479
Speaker 1: small end. Actually Arizona's right, we think is the high end.

1202
01:18:40,479 --> 01:18:43,760
Speaker 1: And that's that's that's because of different assumptions about what

1203
01:18:43,800 --> 01:18:47,120
Speaker 1: technologies are being deployed. So for example, if we have

1204
01:18:47,200 --> 01:18:51,600
Speaker 1: a lot more rooftop solar and a lot more battery storage,

1205
01:18:51,760 --> 01:18:55,760
Speaker 1: that's less acres than if we have uh more of

1206
01:18:55,800 --> 01:18:58,840
Speaker 1: a reliance on just utility scale with less storage, then

1207
01:18:58,880 --> 01:19:00,960
Speaker 1: we have to build more older plants, we have to

1208
01:19:01,000 --> 01:19:03,840
Speaker 1: build more wind plants, so that is kind of the

1209
01:19:04,200 --> 01:19:08,160
Speaker 1: more upper area. UM. And then actually Princeton released a

1210
01:19:08,280 --> 01:19:12,040
Speaker 1: study just a couple of months ago, uh that suggested

1211
01:19:12,120 --> 01:19:14,240
Speaker 1: the footprint could be as big as the size of Texas.

1212
01:19:14,280 --> 01:19:16,679
Speaker 1: And I think that's because they're looking at transmission. We didn't,

1213
01:19:17,200 --> 01:19:20,040
Speaker 1: we didn't have good enough to always felt comfortable about

1214
01:19:20,080 --> 01:19:24,559
Speaker 1: projecting the transmission footprint. But it's it's you know, that

1215
01:19:24,560 --> 01:19:27,840
Speaker 1: would be significant, and that that might you know, and

1216
01:19:28,080 --> 01:19:30,479
Speaker 1: just well, you know, but but I think it's worth

1217
01:19:30,520 --> 01:19:35,920
Speaker 1: pointing out that, Um, if you look at the footprint

1218
01:19:36,000 --> 01:19:40,920
Speaker 1: of hydro and you count the reservoirs, So if you

1219
01:19:40,920 --> 01:19:47,360
Speaker 1: look at the footprint of hydro gas coal, that's not insignificant, right,

1220
01:19:47,600 --> 01:19:50,560
Speaker 1: It's not like it's not like there's zero energy footprint

1221
01:19:50,600 --> 01:19:53,679
Speaker 1: now and we're growing it to the size of Arizona.

1222
01:19:53,680 --> 01:19:55,280
Speaker 1: I don't know what the hell it is. Presumi is

1223
01:19:55,320 --> 01:19:59,120
Speaker 1: not Arizona, but it's not nothing. Yeah, I mean, it's

1224
01:19:59,120 --> 01:20:02,439
Speaker 1: a Rhode Island. It's it's still been large, right. I mean,

1225
01:20:02,479 --> 01:20:07,160
Speaker 1: if you look at Mountaintop removable mining in West Virginia,

1226
01:20:07,520 --> 01:20:10,280
Speaker 1: or the mining and the Powder River basin just a

1227
01:20:10,479 --> 01:20:12,360
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty miles from here. I mean there are

1228
01:20:12,360 --> 01:20:17,640
Speaker 1: extensive areas the West Virginia, Kentucky examples always strike me,

1229
01:20:17,800 --> 01:20:20,960
Speaker 1: right because it's like anytime we bring up mining. Anytime

1230
01:20:20,960 --> 01:20:26,040
Speaker 1: I bring up mining, uh, I will have emails that

1231
01:20:26,080 --> 01:20:29,040
Speaker 1: come in. Let's say, and all those mines have elk

1232
01:20:29,120 --> 01:20:30,920
Speaker 1: on them, now, so how could they be a bad thing?

1233
01:20:31,520 --> 01:20:34,640
Speaker 1: You know, hey man, we're just hunting in Pennsylvania. We

1234
01:20:34,640 --> 01:20:38,320
Speaker 1: were just flint locked deer hunting on top of some

1235
01:20:38,400 --> 01:20:41,920
Speaker 1: old mine, on top of hills that are mysteriously flat

1236
01:20:41,920 --> 01:20:44,800
Speaker 1: on top. Yeah, it's like what happened? It's kind of

1237
01:20:44,840 --> 01:20:48,960
Speaker 1: going up and then allously just flat. Yeah. Uh. Well,

1238
01:20:49,000 --> 01:20:53,320
Speaker 1: infrastructure too, Like I always think of Cold Strip, Montana. Right,

1239
01:20:54,080 --> 01:20:58,599
Speaker 1: It's like how much do you count? There's an entire

1240
01:20:58,720 --> 01:21:02,760
Speaker 1: railroad that goes us through Colster at Montana, Right, But

1241
01:21:03,160 --> 01:21:06,360
Speaker 1: that has a lot of other services involved with it too.

1242
01:21:06,439 --> 01:21:11,240
Speaker 1: But the reason that it's there is for that cold

1243
01:21:12,240 --> 01:21:15,200
Speaker 1: which is like how many yards wide? But then real

1244
01:21:15,280 --> 01:21:18,880
Speaker 1: damn long. Yeah, and you take oil and gas infrastructure.

1245
01:21:19,120 --> 01:21:21,200
Speaker 1: You know, if you've ever been in the Jonah Basin

1246
01:21:21,280 --> 01:21:25,479
Speaker 1: in southwestern Wyoming, you can kind of appreciate this. You know,

1247
01:21:25,520 --> 01:21:28,920
Speaker 1: there there are these oil and gas pads, you know,

1248
01:21:29,840 --> 01:21:34,040
Speaker 1: sprinkling the landscape over hundreds of thousands of acres with

1249
01:21:34,200 --> 01:21:40,080
Speaker 1: roads and and you know, pump stations and pipeline corridors,

1250
01:21:40,240 --> 01:21:43,320
Speaker 1: and you know it's a it's a spider web of impact,

1251
01:21:43,520 --> 01:21:48,960
Speaker 1: right that makes that area a lot less uh, appreciated

1252
01:21:49,040 --> 01:21:53,240
Speaker 1: by mule deer and pronghorn. And so for example, the

1253
01:21:53,240 --> 01:21:56,120
Speaker 1: Wyoming Department of Fish and Game, I think it's tracked

1254
01:21:56,160 --> 01:22:00,760
Speaker 1: about decline now and in the mule deer herd that

1255
01:22:00,840 --> 01:22:04,240
Speaker 1: you know would normally winner in that area because they

1256
01:22:04,479 --> 01:22:09,320
Speaker 1: just don't like human activity. You know, in concentrated forms

1257
01:22:09,360 --> 01:22:11,599
Speaker 1: like that, things are more spread out. You know, they

1258
01:22:11,600 --> 01:22:13,479
Speaker 1: can live with it, but when you have a lot

1259
01:22:13,520 --> 01:22:16,400
Speaker 1: of it in one place, uh, it really starts to

1260
01:22:16,439 --> 01:22:19,639
Speaker 1: impact the way animals think about the habitat that's there,

1261
01:22:20,160 --> 01:22:22,600
Speaker 1: and just to look at the footprint, you know, so

1262
01:22:23,439 --> 01:22:25,880
Speaker 1: it gets you know, it's always like peeling an onion.

1263
01:22:26,280 --> 01:22:28,400
Speaker 1: You know, we say these numbers like it's the size

1264
01:22:28,400 --> 01:22:31,960
Speaker 1: of Arizona, but not all of that impact is exactly

1265
01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:34,560
Speaker 1: the same. So the numbers we use for solar are

1266
01:22:35,040 --> 01:22:39,760
Speaker 1: about you know, eight acres are needed for every megawatt

1267
01:22:39,880 --> 01:22:44,200
Speaker 1: of solar. We need about sixty or eighty acres for

1268
01:22:44,280 --> 01:22:47,280
Speaker 1: every wind turbine that goes up, which might be three

1269
01:22:47,360 --> 01:22:51,720
Speaker 1: or four megawatts nameplate capacity. But there's a difference in

1270
01:22:51,760 --> 01:22:56,599
Speaker 1: that impact. I mean that solar is totally covering the

1271
01:22:56,640 --> 01:23:01,679
Speaker 1: ground and is totally changing habitat is something that's totally

1272
01:23:01,720 --> 01:23:05,160
Speaker 1: not what it was. On the other hand, a wind turban,

1273
01:23:06,280 --> 01:23:09,200
Speaker 1: you know, the footprint of the turban itself isn't very biggest.

1274
01:23:09,280 --> 01:23:11,720
Speaker 1: So when we use that six eight, we're using the

1275
01:23:11,800 --> 01:23:15,880
Speaker 1: spacing that's required between the turbans because it can't be

1276
01:23:15,920 --> 01:23:17,720
Speaker 1: too close to each other. They essentially have to be

1277
01:23:17,720 --> 01:23:21,400
Speaker 1: about a thousand feet apart. So it's the project area

1278
01:23:21,439 --> 01:23:25,439
Speaker 1: we're using for wind. So for some species, the fact

1279
01:23:25,439 --> 01:23:27,400
Speaker 1: that there's a turban there and there's a sprinkling of

1280
01:23:27,439 --> 01:23:30,720
Speaker 1: turbans across the landscape not a big deal. But if

1281
01:23:30,800 --> 01:23:32,720
Speaker 1: you're a bird or a bat, it could be a

1282
01:23:32,760 --> 01:23:36,400
Speaker 1: big deal. Um. And so you know their differential impacts

1283
01:23:37,439 --> 01:23:41,479
Speaker 1: to uh, these these technologies. So that's that's another thing

1284
01:23:41,479 --> 01:23:44,800
Speaker 1: we have to think about an account for. Remember when

1285
01:23:44,800 --> 01:23:49,200
Speaker 1: everybody's kind of realizing the damage that cigarettes cost, and

1286
01:23:49,240 --> 01:23:51,840
Speaker 1: then you had tobacco companies that would really want to

1287
01:23:51,880 --> 01:23:56,160
Speaker 1: like obfuse skate right what exactly was going on with

1288
01:23:56,240 --> 01:23:59,479
Speaker 1: tobacco to the point where it became a joke. And

1289
01:23:59,520 --> 01:24:05,280
Speaker 1: then you've had historically, we've had oil companies that wanted

1290
01:24:05,320 --> 01:24:10,040
Speaker 1: to sort of obfuskate some of the realities around oil.

1291
01:24:11,040 --> 01:24:15,920
Speaker 1: Do you feel that the renewable industry is is maybe

1292
01:24:15,960 --> 01:24:19,240
Speaker 1: hoodwinking people a little bit, like maybe obfu skating a

1293
01:24:19,280 --> 01:24:21,400
Speaker 1: little bit of what they're talking about, or do you

1294
01:24:21,439 --> 01:24:23,120
Speaker 1: feel that they're trying to deal in a way that

1295
01:24:23,160 --> 01:24:25,080
Speaker 1: they're like, this is what it will require, this is

1296
01:24:25,120 --> 01:24:27,599
Speaker 1: what it will look like, or are they a little

1297
01:24:27,640 --> 01:24:29,320
Speaker 1: bit of shape, Like are you a little bit like

1298
01:24:29,640 --> 01:24:34,120
Speaker 1: are you embarrassed about the numbers at all? Uh? No,

1299
01:24:34,200 --> 01:24:38,040
Speaker 1: I mean the numbers are what the numbers are in

1300
01:24:38,160 --> 01:24:42,320
Speaker 1: terms of, you know, our companies obfu skating the reality

1301
01:24:42,439 --> 01:24:45,880
Speaker 1: of what's going to happen. Uh. You know, I can't

1302
01:24:45,880 --> 01:24:49,720
Speaker 1: speak to the motivations of all companies. Companies have different motivations.

1303
01:24:49,760 --> 01:24:54,840
Speaker 1: I think some of them truly are focused on the

1304
01:24:54,880 --> 01:24:59,080
Speaker 1: social and environmental benefits. Yeah, but let's face it, I mean,

1305
01:24:59,160 --> 01:25:02,280
Speaker 1: companies have to make money. They have to make a profit.

1306
01:25:02,400 --> 01:25:06,120
Speaker 1: In order to be in that business. And an interesting

1307
01:25:06,160 --> 01:25:09,320
Speaker 1: thing about renewables is where is the money coming from

1308
01:25:09,400 --> 01:25:13,400
Speaker 1: that's driving all this investment. Ten trillion dollars going to

1309
01:25:13,479 --> 01:25:17,800
Speaker 1: go into renewable energy over the next several decades. A

1310
01:25:17,840 --> 01:25:20,040
Speaker 1: big chunk of that money is coming from oil and

1311
01:25:20,080 --> 01:25:23,200
Speaker 1: gas companies because they know what's coming. You know, it's

1312
01:25:23,200 --> 01:25:26,559
Speaker 1: a different world they're gonna have to operate in, and

1313
01:25:26,680 --> 01:25:29,519
Speaker 1: so they're hatching their bets and they're investing substantially and

1314
01:25:29,520 --> 01:25:31,720
Speaker 1: in renewable energy, along with lots of other folks, right,

1315
01:25:31,760 --> 01:25:36,880
Speaker 1: I mean, including myself. Um so, uh it's hard to

1316
01:25:37,280 --> 01:25:41,200
Speaker 1: you know, lump everybody together and say they're they're all

1317
01:25:41,560 --> 01:25:43,639
Speaker 1: in cahoots trying to hug with us. No, I mean

1318
01:25:43,680 --> 01:25:47,160
Speaker 1: I think, uh they are. You know, if you look

1319
01:25:47,160 --> 01:25:51,200
Speaker 1: at the history of energy now, we've progressively gotten better,

1320
01:25:51,320 --> 01:25:54,240
Speaker 1: I would say, I mean, we we went from wood, right,

1321
01:25:54,240 --> 01:25:57,880
Speaker 1: I mean, we cleared New England. There wasn't a tree

1322
01:25:57,960 --> 01:26:00,960
Speaker 1: growing in New England by about eighteen thirty because we

1323
01:26:01,040 --> 01:26:05,200
Speaker 1: had chopped everything down to burn it for charcoal or

1324
01:26:05,200 --> 01:26:11,240
Speaker 1: of course clear it for farming. And and yeah it's

1325
01:26:11,280 --> 01:26:13,760
Speaker 1: our whale I got. I mean, so yeah, wood wasn't

1326
01:26:13,760 --> 01:26:15,960
Speaker 1: a very sustainable thing. We had to come up with

1327
01:26:16,000 --> 01:26:18,400
Speaker 1: something else and we did, right, and that was coal.

1328
01:26:19,000 --> 01:26:22,000
Speaker 1: So coal was the next thing we did, and so

1329
01:26:22,960 --> 01:26:26,200
Speaker 1: um so we did that for a century. Uh, and

1330
01:26:26,320 --> 01:26:29,559
Speaker 1: then yeah, we started to like, well, you know, there

1331
01:26:29,560 --> 01:26:31,960
Speaker 1: are some real problems with coal. I mean, there's arsenic

1332
01:26:32,080 --> 01:26:37,320
Speaker 1: there's there's you know, sulfur dioxide. Remember the remember the

1333
01:26:37,360 --> 01:26:42,200
Speaker 1: acid rain thing back in the ages. Have you ever

1334
01:26:42,200 --> 01:26:48,960
Speaker 1: heard about acid rain recently? Why? Why don't? When I

1335
01:26:49,000 --> 01:26:52,000
Speaker 1: was in grad school, that was like a huge topic.

1336
01:26:52,120 --> 01:26:55,360
Speaker 1: That's what you know, drove a lot of the ecological

1337
01:26:55,400 --> 01:26:58,879
Speaker 1: research community. By the way, I'm a forest ecologist by training,

1338
01:26:59,760 --> 01:27:03,719
Speaker 1: I'm not an energy guy, so you know, but real quick, Uh,

1339
01:27:03,800 --> 01:27:07,160
Speaker 1: what happened to acid rain again? Well, you know, we

1340
01:27:07,240 --> 01:27:10,160
Speaker 1: stopped burning coal. I mean it's a big part of

1341
01:27:10,320 --> 01:27:15,280
Speaker 1: We use sulfur's dioxide, you know, scrubbers to keep nitrous

1342
01:27:15,400 --> 01:27:19,400
Speaker 1: uh oxide and sulfur dioxide out of the air. But

1343
01:27:19,520 --> 01:27:21,960
Speaker 1: a big part of it is is because of the

1344
01:27:21,960 --> 01:27:25,120
Speaker 1: burning of coal, is has been reduced over the last

1345
01:27:25,680 --> 01:27:28,519
Speaker 1: several decades. It seemed like during the last presidency you

1346
01:27:28,640 --> 01:27:32,320
Speaker 1: heard a lot about clean coal. Can you explain, like

1347
01:27:32,400 --> 01:27:34,880
Speaker 1: what that is what someone means when they're referring to

1348
01:27:34,880 --> 01:27:37,280
Speaker 1: clean coal and the reality of it. Spencer trying to

1349
01:27:37,280 --> 01:27:39,960
Speaker 1: get in there, see that totally. How you know? So,

1350
01:27:41,520 --> 01:27:45,000
Speaker 1: Um again, I'm a forest ecologist, I've gotten I've been

1351
01:27:45,040 --> 01:27:48,160
Speaker 1: immersed and energy development for a couple of decads. I

1352
01:27:48,200 --> 01:27:51,400
Speaker 1: can get to that in just a moment. But um,

1353
01:27:51,479 --> 01:27:56,080
Speaker 1: you know, there are ways to reduce the the various

1354
01:27:56,360 --> 01:27:59,160
Speaker 1: side effects of burning coal, right, I mean things like

1355
01:27:59,400 --> 01:28:05,160
Speaker 1: scrubbing the air to get uh, sulfur dioxide, nitrous oxides,

1356
01:28:05,439 --> 01:28:09,840
Speaker 1: arsenic mercury. But the more you do that, the more

1357
01:28:09,840 --> 01:28:12,280
Speaker 1: expensive it becomes. And one of the reasons why coal

1358
01:28:13,000 --> 01:28:16,919
Speaker 1: has become less and less competitive economically is the cost

1359
01:28:18,200 --> 01:28:21,720
Speaker 1: of dealing with those things that are in coal that

1360
01:28:21,720 --> 01:28:25,479
Speaker 1: are harmful to both human health and the environment. So

1361
01:28:25,560 --> 01:28:27,320
Speaker 1: that's where they point out, that's where they point out

1362
01:28:27,320 --> 01:28:30,920
Speaker 1: that regulations are killing the coal industry. Yeah, well, because

1363
01:28:30,920 --> 01:28:33,280
Speaker 1: if it was just unfettered coal burning, it would be

1364
01:28:33,280 --> 01:28:35,800
Speaker 1: a lot cheaper than when you make certain stipulations about

1365
01:28:35,840 --> 01:28:38,679
Speaker 1: what you can and can't do. Correct. Yeah, it would

1366
01:28:38,720 --> 01:28:42,080
Speaker 1: be cheaper, it's still be arguably it'd still be expensive

1367
01:28:42,640 --> 01:28:46,040
Speaker 1: for a whole bunch of reasons. But yeah, there's no question,

1368
01:28:46,200 --> 01:28:48,760
Speaker 1: you know, society has made the judgment the right one.

1369
01:28:48,800 --> 01:28:54,240
Speaker 1: I think that you know, we can't tolerate having unfettered

1370
01:28:54,320 --> 01:28:58,600
Speaker 1: burning of fossil fuels with no attempt to curb you know,

1371
01:28:58,640 --> 01:29:02,479
Speaker 1: they're really damaging side effects of burning fossil fuels. I mean,

1372
01:29:02,479 --> 01:29:07,280
Speaker 1: there's no there's no question that burning fossil stuff creates

1373
01:29:07,920 --> 01:29:11,880
Speaker 1: you know, a slew of of toxics that go into

1374
01:29:11,960 --> 01:29:15,400
Speaker 1: the air and go into the water, and and are

1375
01:29:15,680 --> 01:29:19,800
Speaker 1: you a real threat to human and environmental health? But

1376
01:29:19,880 --> 01:29:24,920
Speaker 1: aren't we looking at um? God? I feel like there's

1377
01:29:24,960 --> 01:29:28,599
Speaker 1: so many misnomers with green and clean and just Noman's

1378
01:29:28,640 --> 01:29:33,599
Speaker 1: really telling the we're the truth that, as you said,

1379
01:29:33,640 --> 01:29:36,200
Speaker 1: there's no such thing as a free lunch. You know,

1380
01:29:36,240 --> 01:29:40,440
Speaker 1: who's looking into what do you do with solar panels

1381
01:29:40,479 --> 01:29:43,920
Speaker 1: after they've run their life cycle? Or battery powered cars?

1382
01:29:44,439 --> 01:29:47,559
Speaker 1: Maybe we're not burning you know, fossil fuels, but what's

1383
01:29:48,160 --> 01:29:50,080
Speaker 1: you know, when are where are those Where are we

1384
01:29:50,080 --> 01:29:51,800
Speaker 1: going to bring those things? Where are we gonna where

1385
01:29:51,800 --> 01:29:53,960
Speaker 1: are they going to break down? What kind of environmental

1386
01:29:54,080 --> 01:29:57,840
Speaker 1: impact will they have later on? Like we won't maybe

1387
01:29:57,840 --> 01:30:01,120
Speaker 1: have them in our backyard country is will we be

1388
01:30:01,240 --> 01:30:04,200
Speaker 1: disposing of them in That's that's the thing I've been

1389
01:30:04,200 --> 01:30:06,720
Speaker 1: trying to introduce. A conversation we're trying to introduce in

1390
01:30:06,760 --> 01:30:10,800
Speaker 1: my family is, um, everything your kids go to now,

1391
01:30:12,640 --> 01:30:16,320
Speaker 1: anything they go to they come home with a stainless

1392
01:30:16,320 --> 01:30:21,360
Speaker 1: steel water bottle. As But it's like we have this

1393
01:30:21,479 --> 01:30:27,200
Speaker 1: idea that like the salvation of the world is from

1394
01:30:27,360 --> 01:30:30,320
Speaker 1: like the whole point that whole thing is that you

1395
01:30:30,360 --> 01:30:33,040
Speaker 1: get one and you hang on to it. But they've

1396
01:30:33,080 --> 01:30:36,000
Speaker 1: become almost like disposable, and I think that like people

1397
01:30:36,000 --> 01:30:38,120
Speaker 1: feel better about themselves doing that. But that ship comes

1398
01:30:38,120 --> 01:30:40,519
Speaker 1: out of the ground. Man, But it's all nonsense, Like

1399
01:30:40,600 --> 01:30:45,120
Speaker 1: I missed the milkman. Like everyone's talking about recycling. It

1400
01:30:45,160 --> 01:30:47,880
Speaker 1: takes a lot of energy space, it takes a lot

1401
01:30:47,920 --> 01:30:52,599
Speaker 1: of processing and processes to also recycle. Oh god, I'm

1402
01:30:52,640 --> 01:30:56,760
Speaker 1: just you. It makes you. That's kind of what I

1403
01:30:56,800 --> 01:30:59,040
Speaker 1: meant about the stainless steel bottle thing, is like it's

1404
01:30:59,080 --> 01:31:02,680
Speaker 1: like it's hard to it's you want to make it

1405
01:31:02,720 --> 01:31:08,479
Speaker 1: all super simplified, like plastic bottles, you know, are bad. Um.

1406
01:31:08,680 --> 01:31:10,960
Speaker 1: And there's a lot of reasons, like with with plastic

1407
01:31:11,000 --> 01:31:12,920
Speaker 1: and the oceans, right, there's all kinds of reasons to

1408
01:31:12,960 --> 01:31:15,160
Speaker 1: be down on plastic bottles, But I don't know that

1409
01:31:15,240 --> 01:31:22,080
Speaker 1: the answer is that every family has sixty merch you know,

1410
01:31:23,200 --> 01:31:27,599
Speaker 1: stainless steel bottles in there the cupboards, which is which

1411
01:31:27,640 --> 01:31:30,559
Speaker 1: is where my family went. Hey, Steve, you know I'm

1412
01:31:30,600 --> 01:31:33,559
Speaker 1: I'm drinking out of the same coffee thing that my

1413
01:31:33,840 --> 01:31:37,800
Speaker 1: brother gave me ten or twenty years ago. Now, by

1414
01:31:37,800 --> 01:31:41,280
Speaker 1: the way, it's good. Congratulates got a Yellowstone cutthroat. They're

1415
01:31:41,479 --> 01:31:46,320
Speaker 1: just congratulated. I try, I try to. I have this

1416
01:31:46,400 --> 01:31:48,680
Speaker 1: trusty cup. You'll see that I try to use. But

1417
01:31:48,760 --> 01:31:51,559
Speaker 1: I do see that people are like, it's you can

1418
01:31:51,680 --> 01:31:55,320
Speaker 1: fall into this thing where like, oh no, I'm rehabilitated.

1419
01:31:55,920 --> 01:31:59,559
Speaker 1: I now have eighty stainless steel containers and I lose

1420
01:31:59,600 --> 01:32:05,519
Speaker 1: one every but I'm not feeding into the bottlest at

1421
01:32:05,560 --> 01:32:10,840
Speaker 1: a time. No child is okay, no school event right

1422
01:32:11,080 --> 01:32:15,360
Speaker 1: has somebody distributing the stainless steel bottle, looking each child

1423
01:32:15,400 --> 01:32:20,480
Speaker 1: in the eyeballs and going, this is now your drinking about.

1424
01:32:20,960 --> 01:32:24,600
Speaker 1: It can hold many things. It is yours. Do not

1425
01:32:24,800 --> 01:32:28,080
Speaker 1: lose it. And if you ask the child, do you

1426
01:32:28,160 --> 01:32:31,479
Speaker 1: I want you to ask yourself, do you really need

1427
01:32:32,040 --> 01:32:37,920
Speaker 1: this stainless steel bottle, to which they will say, yeah, no,

1428
01:32:38,040 --> 01:32:41,439
Speaker 1: it's it's absolutely true. We live in a throw away society, right.

1429
01:32:41,640 --> 01:32:45,160
Speaker 1: But seriously, I think there's gonna be a lot of

1430
01:32:45,200 --> 01:32:49,600
Speaker 1: focus moving forward with these technologies to find ways to

1431
01:32:49,720 --> 01:32:52,320
Speaker 1: recycle them. For one thing, you know, you could save

1432
01:32:52,400 --> 01:32:57,160
Speaker 1: money just recycling batteries. For example, lithium and other rare

1433
01:32:57,200 --> 01:33:00,160
Speaker 1: earth metals that go into batteries that are you is

1434
01:33:00,240 --> 01:33:02,760
Speaker 1: now by cars and your cell phone sitting on the

1435
01:33:02,760 --> 01:33:06,160
Speaker 1: table are are expensive, really expensive. And so if we

1436
01:33:06,200 --> 01:33:09,519
Speaker 1: can find ways to recycle those batteries, if we can

1437
01:33:09,560 --> 01:33:13,559
Speaker 1: find cheaper components for those batteries, there's you know that

1438
01:33:13,680 --> 01:33:19,840
Speaker 1: the sixty four million, maybe billion dollar question is scalable

1439
01:33:20,040 --> 01:33:24,679
Speaker 1: cheap battery storage. And you know there's there's a hot

1440
01:33:24,720 --> 01:33:30,439
Speaker 1: technology race on around the world define cheaper, less impact

1441
01:33:30,560 --> 01:33:35,080
Speaker 1: ways to develop battery storage. There's some really promising research

1442
01:33:35,280 --> 01:33:38,760
Speaker 1: out there that suggests we can get beyond some of

1443
01:33:38,760 --> 01:33:42,280
Speaker 1: the rarers, including lithium, but we don't know, we don't

1444
01:33:42,280 --> 01:33:44,760
Speaker 1: have enough experience. There's it's too early in the R

1445
01:33:44,840 --> 01:33:47,559
Speaker 1: and D phase. But all I can say is there

1446
01:33:47,680 --> 01:33:50,000
Speaker 1: is going to be a lot of focus and attention

1447
01:33:51,040 --> 01:33:56,360
Speaker 1: on getting cheaper and less impactful ways of developing these

1448
01:33:56,400 --> 01:33:58,920
Speaker 1: technologies over time. I think the same as going to

1449
01:33:59,040 --> 01:34:02,920
Speaker 1: be true for you know, wind turbine blades. And you

1450
01:34:02,960 --> 01:34:05,040
Speaker 1: know one thing that's going on in the wind industry

1451
01:34:05,080 --> 01:34:08,960
Speaker 1: now is you know some of these wind turbines have

1452
01:34:09,080 --> 01:34:11,400
Speaker 1: been out there for twenty years. You know, they were

1453
01:34:12,120 --> 01:34:14,840
Speaker 1: one or one and a half megawatts. Now we're doing four.

1454
01:34:15,000 --> 01:34:18,719
Speaker 1: So how do they repurpose those twenty year old turban

1455
01:34:18,840 --> 01:34:23,439
Speaker 1: towers and get new blades on those things that are

1456
01:34:23,439 --> 01:34:26,360
Speaker 1: more efficient, can generate more energy, so we don't have

1457
01:34:26,400 --> 01:34:28,760
Speaker 1: to go out and build another turban and just leave

1458
01:34:28,840 --> 01:34:31,920
Speaker 1: that other one there, take it down and try and

1459
01:34:31,960 --> 01:34:35,360
Speaker 1: dispose of It's like, how do we reuse recycling cost?

1460
01:34:35,920 --> 01:34:39,439
Speaker 1: It's like we want really long lasting batteries. Yeah, we like,

1461
01:34:39,800 --> 01:34:44,440
Speaker 1: that's what I want because it's like the cost of recycling,

1462
01:34:44,520 --> 01:34:49,200
Speaker 1: like it's, uh, the input can outweigh the output of recycling,

1463
01:34:49,479 --> 01:34:51,439
Speaker 1: and then it's like what is the point. Yeah, And

1464
01:34:51,479 --> 01:34:54,960
Speaker 1: that's why recycling everything every place that always makes sense.

1465
01:34:55,040 --> 01:34:58,320
Speaker 1: Like right here in Bosen, right you cannot recycle glass.

1466
01:34:58,960 --> 01:35:01,760
Speaker 1: Why is that? Because you have to take it to

1467
01:35:01,880 --> 01:35:04,840
Speaker 1: Spokane or Denver to get rid of it. I mean

1468
01:35:04,880 --> 01:35:08,320
Speaker 1: that means putting it in a truck hauling a long ways.

1469
01:35:08,439 --> 01:35:10,040
Speaker 1: It costs a lot of money and it used a

1470
01:35:10,080 --> 01:35:12,720
Speaker 1: lot of fuel, So not a good idea. On the

1471
01:35:12,760 --> 01:35:16,840
Speaker 1: other hand, loom when i'm cans, yes, I mean let's

1472
01:35:16,880 --> 01:35:19,439
Speaker 1: do that. There are places that will recycle that. They

1473
01:35:19,439 --> 01:35:22,800
Speaker 1: are much more affordable and don't require the kind of

1474
01:35:22,880 --> 01:35:26,200
Speaker 1: energy that's required of glass, for example. So yeah, I

1475
01:35:26,200 --> 01:35:29,640
Speaker 1: mean we have to use our our noggins when we

1476
01:35:29,680 --> 01:35:33,960
Speaker 1: think about these things. There's not always one solution, you know.

1477
01:35:34,000 --> 01:35:36,120
Speaker 1: We have to think about what the right solution is

1478
01:35:36,160 --> 01:35:38,120
Speaker 1: in the right place at the right time. We'll think

1479
01:35:38,200 --> 01:35:42,120
Speaker 1: about what Karen said, right, It's like I think of

1480
01:35:42,680 --> 01:35:46,080
Speaker 1: salmon and damns again. Right. I know from doing a

1481
01:35:46,080 --> 01:35:51,320
Speaker 1: lot of my own construction that when I tear apart

1482
01:35:51,360 --> 01:35:54,840
Speaker 1: of house, all that lumber that's been sitting there forever,

1483
01:35:54,960 --> 01:35:57,880
Speaker 1: if I rip all the nails out and put that

1484
01:35:57,960 --> 01:36:00,439
Speaker 1: lumber back in a house or in to the new

1485
01:36:00,439 --> 01:36:02,680
Speaker 1: addition of the house, or into whatever I'm working on

1486
01:36:02,760 --> 01:36:05,800
Speaker 1: in the house, that is way better than me going

1487
01:36:05,840 --> 01:36:10,800
Speaker 1: down to the lumberyard and buying a brand new wet

1488
01:36:10,920 --> 01:36:15,719
Speaker 1: two by four. Who does that? I do know I mean,

1489
01:36:16,640 --> 01:36:20,720
Speaker 1: you know, but I also know that if you want

1490
01:36:20,760 --> 01:36:24,760
Speaker 1: to talk about green, clean energy, a protein source that

1491
01:36:24,800 --> 01:36:29,040
Speaker 1: can replicate itself, move halfway around the fricking globe, and

1492
01:36:29,080 --> 01:36:33,440
Speaker 1: then bring itself all the way back inland, that is renewable,

1493
01:36:33,479 --> 01:36:36,760
Speaker 1: that people can eat off of the entire way you

1494
01:36:36,840 --> 01:36:40,400
Speaker 1: have done responsibly. Salmon seems pretty damn green and clean.

1495
01:36:41,120 --> 01:36:43,799
Speaker 1: Now that's a hell of a pitch for a farmer.

1496
01:36:43,880 --> 01:36:48,240
Speaker 1: Be like, I got this idea. But that giant live

1497
01:36:48,400 --> 01:36:52,519
Speaker 1: stock right, you don't even touch. Yeah, it goes out

1498
01:36:52,560 --> 01:36:55,200
Speaker 1: into the ocean, it comes back all fat and good.

1499
01:36:55,520 --> 01:36:58,920
Speaker 1: No one does ship and we eat it, pluck a

1500
01:36:58,960 --> 01:37:01,840
Speaker 1: few off as it come by, and leave, leave enough

1501
01:37:02,000 --> 01:37:04,640
Speaker 1: so we can keep going up. But then you have

1502
01:37:04,680 --> 01:37:08,920
Speaker 1: the superstructure in the middle right that there, My god,

1503
01:37:08,960 --> 01:37:13,880
Speaker 1: the initial cost of putting that thing there. Uh, it

1504
01:37:14,000 --> 01:37:17,640
Speaker 1: seems that it would also be very beneficial to have

1505
01:37:17,800 --> 01:37:23,240
Speaker 1: that thing there in some capacity and renew it in

1506
01:37:23,240 --> 01:37:28,080
Speaker 1: a way that offset that mitigates that cost somehow while

1507
01:37:28,120 --> 01:37:32,800
Speaker 1: still allowing this miracle of protein to flow past at

1508
01:37:33,280 --> 01:37:37,840
Speaker 1: both downward and upward. Right, And then you look at

1509
01:37:37,880 --> 01:37:45,920
Speaker 1: brand new clean energy like this. The startup cost is

1510
01:37:45,479 --> 01:37:49,360
Speaker 1: is the hard part right, and it's like, just like

1511
01:37:49,439 --> 01:37:53,000
Speaker 1: those oil pads and gas pads, there's gonna be a

1512
01:37:53,000 --> 01:37:56,160
Speaker 1: lot of roads, probably a lot of chain link fencing

1513
01:37:56,840 --> 01:37:59,840
Speaker 1: that does not do a lot of good things for

1514
01:38:00,280 --> 01:38:04,040
Speaker 1: animals either. And then we talked about the space, right,

1515
01:38:04,120 --> 01:38:07,880
Speaker 1: so it's like like, how do we find our cake

1516
01:38:07,920 --> 01:38:11,160
Speaker 1: and eat it too? Yeah, and that's what we're all about.

1517
01:38:11,800 --> 01:38:14,839
Speaker 1: We need that. Let's take a step back. The reason

1518
01:38:14,920 --> 01:38:18,679
Speaker 1: why we think clean energy is so important is because

1519
01:38:18,760 --> 01:38:22,880
Speaker 1: climate change really threatens the mission that we have, which

1520
01:38:22,960 --> 01:38:27,439
Speaker 1: is sustaining lands and waters that all life needs to exist.

1521
01:38:27,760 --> 01:38:35,720
Speaker 1: And the number one threat habitats, wildlife, ultimately uan society

1522
01:38:35,760 --> 01:38:42,599
Speaker 1: faces is runaway climate change. The climate is changing at

1523
01:38:42,640 --> 01:38:47,160
Speaker 1: between one hundred and a thousand times faster than it

1524
01:38:47,240 --> 01:38:54,160
Speaker 1: has in millennia m eons. So we are compressing a

1525
01:38:54,240 --> 01:38:58,160
Speaker 1: huge amount of climate change into a very short period

1526
01:38:58,200 --> 01:39:02,480
Speaker 1: of time, a period of time that species and habitats

1527
01:39:02,479 --> 01:39:04,559
Speaker 1: will not be able to adapt to unless we slow

1528
01:39:04,560 --> 01:39:07,760
Speaker 1: it down. Uh. You know, living here in Montana, we

1529
01:39:07,760 --> 01:39:13,400
Speaker 1: can see it just in the last few years. You know,

1530
01:39:13,560 --> 01:39:16,360
Speaker 1: last year we had a record snow pack in a

1531
01:39:16,400 --> 01:39:22,760
Speaker 1: bunch of western Montana by June when the runoff normally peaks, right,

1532
01:39:22,800 --> 01:39:25,040
Speaker 1: I mean, you can't go fly fishing in June in Montana.

1533
01:39:25,120 --> 01:39:27,360
Speaker 1: That was always you know, as a kid growing up

1534
01:39:27,360 --> 01:39:29,280
Speaker 1: in North Dakota, we come out to Montana to go

1535
01:39:29,360 --> 01:39:32,040
Speaker 1: fly fishing because it's not very good in North Dakota.

1536
01:39:32,200 --> 01:39:35,360
Speaker 1: And and but you know, you wouldn't come in June

1537
01:39:35,439 --> 01:39:38,200
Speaker 1: because the water was always too high. You know, when

1538
01:39:38,240 --> 01:39:40,200
Speaker 1: the water peak last year, it was like the middle

1539
01:39:40,240 --> 01:39:43,680
Speaker 1: of May. And that's tip that's going on across the

1540
01:39:43,680 --> 01:39:47,679
Speaker 1: West right now, is that we are seeing the runoffs.

1541
01:39:47,680 --> 01:39:49,640
Speaker 1: So we're getting about the same amount of snow at

1542
01:39:49,680 --> 01:39:52,160
Speaker 1: least here. I mean further south that's not so true.

1543
01:39:52,200 --> 01:39:55,040
Speaker 1: But but here the northern Rockies, you know, we've been

1544
01:39:55,040 --> 01:39:57,640
Speaker 1: doing fine on annual snow pack and maybe even a

1545
01:39:57,640 --> 01:40:00,600
Speaker 1: slight increase. The problem is it's a running off a

1546
01:40:00,640 --> 01:40:04,919
Speaker 1: lot sooner. And so what does that mean hoodol restrictions.

1547
01:40:04,920 --> 01:40:06,760
Speaker 1: I'm the kid, you never heard of anything called the

1548
01:40:06,800 --> 01:40:10,519
Speaker 1: Hoodalo restriction. For those of the uninitiated, that means you

1549
01:40:10,560 --> 01:40:14,000
Speaker 1: can't fish. You can't fly fish for trout, for cold

1550
01:40:14,040 --> 01:40:17,639
Speaker 1: water species in the afternoon because they get stressed out

1551
01:40:17,680 --> 01:40:21,200
Speaker 1: because the water temperatures get up to the upper sixties

1552
01:40:21,320 --> 01:40:24,400
Speaker 1: low seventies, and you know, if you're a trout, you know,

1553
01:40:24,600 --> 01:40:27,160
Speaker 1: you depend on cold water because cold water has enough

1554
01:40:27,200 --> 01:40:31,400
Speaker 1: oxygen that you're used to, that you've evolved to. If

1555
01:40:31,400 --> 01:40:35,920
Speaker 1: the water gets above a threshold. You know, some trout

1556
01:40:36,000 --> 01:40:39,160
Speaker 1: like yellowstone cutthroats have a fairly low threshold in the

1557
01:40:39,240 --> 01:40:42,680
Speaker 1: upper sixties. You know, brown trout can tolerate into the

1558
01:40:43,360 --> 01:40:46,280
Speaker 1: you know, load amid seventies, but at some point you

1559
01:40:46,360 --> 01:40:51,600
Speaker 1: reach a temperature where the trout just can't exists. And

1560
01:40:51,840 --> 01:40:56,400
Speaker 1: certainly moving around and getting caught for example, um on

1561
01:40:56,439 --> 01:41:00,439
Speaker 1: one of those really warm afternoons is really stressful and fish,

1562
01:41:00,600 --> 01:41:03,479
Speaker 1: you know, have been shown not to survive that stress

1563
01:41:03,600 --> 01:41:06,000
Speaker 1: very well, and they it kills, you know, So they

1564
01:41:06,080 --> 01:41:09,360
Speaker 1: might survive that day to live another day, you know,

1565
01:41:09,400 --> 01:41:11,840
Speaker 1: if they don't get stressed out because they're being caught

1566
01:41:12,000 --> 01:41:16,519
Speaker 1: that afternoon. So those hood our restrictions. I looked online

1567
01:41:16,560 --> 01:41:18,479
Speaker 1: just trying to track how many of those have been

1568
01:41:18,520 --> 01:41:22,000
Speaker 1: imposed in Montana and whether there's some trend. I couldn't

1569
01:41:22,000 --> 01:41:23,760
Speaker 1: find any data on that, but just from my own

1570
01:41:23,800 --> 01:41:27,720
Speaker 1: personal experience, that's been going up right, and we have

1571
01:41:27,840 --> 01:41:31,479
Speaker 1: more and more days look at fire seasons you know,

1572
01:41:31,560 --> 01:41:36,920
Speaker 1: the fire season across the West has now been extended

1573
01:41:36,960 --> 01:41:39,599
Speaker 1: by weeks to several months, depending on where you are,

1574
01:41:40,080 --> 01:41:43,080
Speaker 1: even here in Montana, you know, I mean last fall

1575
01:41:43,160 --> 01:41:48,280
Speaker 1: there were wildfires, not just grass fires, but wildfires in

1576
01:41:48,439 --> 01:41:52,920
Speaker 1: four settings in November and December. That's almost unheard of.

1577
01:41:53,000 --> 01:41:57,840
Speaker 1: I mean, these changes are happening now. Um. So the

1578
01:41:57,960 --> 01:42:04,519
Speaker 1: reason why we're so devated, uh to advocate for clean

1579
01:42:04,640 --> 01:42:09,920
Speaker 1: energy is because of that underlying problem. Do you foresee

1580
01:42:10,560 --> 01:42:15,880
Speaker 1: that your organization, the Nature Conservancy? Uh? Will you guys

1581
01:42:15,960 --> 01:42:22,840
Speaker 1: turn nature conservancy lands over to renewable energy production? Uh? No,

1582
01:42:24,080 --> 01:42:29,280
Speaker 1: with possibly some exceptions. We own, for example, agricultural lands

1583
01:42:29,320 --> 01:42:32,559
Speaker 1: that are a buffer around to preserve that we might own,

1584
01:42:32,640 --> 01:42:34,960
Speaker 1: and you know, it might actually be better to have

1585
01:42:35,040 --> 01:42:39,639
Speaker 1: solar panels there then having a farmer dro corn there, right,

1586
01:42:39,680 --> 01:42:43,240
Speaker 1: I mean growing corn caused some erosion. You know, they

1587
01:42:43,320 --> 01:42:47,200
Speaker 1: might be using pesticides that might be a problem for

1588
01:42:47,320 --> 01:42:51,320
Speaker 1: insects or birds or whatever. So maybe solars a better

1589
01:42:51,439 --> 01:42:54,480
Speaker 1: use of that, But it would be an extremely limited circumstances.

1590
01:42:54,479 --> 01:42:56,479
Speaker 1: And in fact, actually we're looking we own two and

1591
01:42:56,520 --> 01:42:59,639
Speaker 1: a half million acres across the United States, so it's

1592
01:42:59,680 --> 01:43:02,360
Speaker 1: it's receivable that we would have some places that might

1593
01:43:02,400 --> 01:43:06,000
Speaker 1: be what we would call low impact for renoubal energy.

1594
01:43:06,040 --> 01:43:09,040
Speaker 1: But your lands are not. Your lands are not the

1595
01:43:09,120 --> 01:43:13,720
Speaker 1: kind of compromised landscapes that converting. You know a lot

1596
01:43:13,800 --> 01:43:16,400
Speaker 1: of our lands are really the ecological gems that are

1597
01:43:16,439 --> 01:43:19,800
Speaker 1: out there, right, I mean we need conservancy. Yeah, So

1598
01:43:19,920 --> 01:43:22,920
Speaker 1: we have about preserves across the United States. By the way,

1599
01:43:23,000 --> 01:43:26,840
Speaker 1: you can hunt fish on over a million acres and

1600
01:43:27,120 --> 01:43:30,760
Speaker 1: we have yeah, yeah, I mean here here a couple

1601
01:43:30,760 --> 01:43:34,879
Speaker 1: of examples. One is the Big Two Hearted Preserve in Michigan,

1602
01:43:35,080 --> 01:43:38,840
Speaker 1: you know where uh the Nick Adams stories by Ernest

1603
01:43:38,880 --> 01:43:41,320
Speaker 1: Hemingway or said, you know, we own a preserve there

1604
01:43:41,320 --> 01:43:44,240
Speaker 1: and you can go fly fishing right there where you

1605
01:43:44,280 --> 01:43:47,439
Speaker 1: know Hemingway at one point slowly fishing. And then we

1606
01:43:47,520 --> 01:43:50,080
Speaker 1: have someplace called the Silver Creek Preserve in Idaho, which

1607
01:43:50,080 --> 01:43:53,559
Speaker 1: actually was the last place at Hemingway lived and unfortunately

1608
01:43:53,560 --> 01:43:58,280
Speaker 1: committed suicide. But you could go fly fishing or duck

1609
01:43:58,360 --> 01:44:00,920
Speaker 1: hunting there. And so any way, so we yeah, we

1610
01:44:00,960 --> 01:44:03,240
Speaker 1: owned about a million a half acres I mean two

1611
01:44:03,280 --> 01:44:08,320
Speaker 1: and a half million acres um. We've acquired another fifteen

1612
01:44:08,439 --> 01:44:12,920
Speaker 1: or sixteen million acres nationwide that we've transferred to state

1613
01:44:12,960 --> 01:44:15,280
Speaker 1: and federal agencies of vast majority of that's open to

1614
01:44:15,360 --> 01:44:19,040
Speaker 1: hunting and fishing too. So yeah, yeah, So, I mean

1615
01:44:19,439 --> 01:44:22,519
Speaker 1: a lot of those lands went to state you know,

1616
01:44:23,000 --> 01:44:25,760
Speaker 1: wildlife management areas, or they went to the US four

1617
01:44:25,920 --> 01:44:29,160
Speaker 1: Service and they went to the Fish and Wildlife Service

1618
01:44:29,240 --> 01:44:31,080
Speaker 1: or the Bureau of Land Management. You know, some hard

1619
01:44:31,080 --> 01:44:32,599
Speaker 1: didn't know that. I didn't know that you guys did

1620
01:44:32,680 --> 01:44:36,320
Speaker 1: land transfers. They put land into public estate. Yeah, I

1621
01:44:36,320 --> 01:44:40,000
Speaker 1: mean we we Most of the LANDWA acquire ultimately ends

1622
01:44:40,080 --> 01:44:46,800
Speaker 1: up residing with a public agency and open access. Do

1623
01:44:46,840 --> 01:44:49,640
Speaker 1: you know that about the nature conservans? To be honest, no,

1624
01:44:49,720 --> 01:44:52,479
Speaker 1: I wasn't. I wasn't hip on the on the I

1625
01:44:52,760 --> 01:44:56,400
Speaker 1: know of some some cases, but I didn't know that

1626
01:44:56,400 --> 01:45:00,560
Speaker 1: that was. Um, I guess a pillar of the you

1627
01:45:00,680 --> 01:45:03,000
Speaker 1: hold two and a half million, but you guys have

1628
01:45:03,040 --> 01:45:07,920
Speaker 1: transferred somewhere around fifteen million acres. Okay, Yeah, I pres

1629
01:45:08,040 --> 01:45:11,920
Speaker 1: spent more time on Nature conservancy land than I thought maybe. Um.

1630
01:45:12,000 --> 01:45:14,040
Speaker 1: But by the way, before you go charging into a

1631
01:45:14,120 --> 01:45:19,479
Speaker 1: nature conservancy preserve, you contact the program ahead of time

1632
01:45:19,840 --> 01:45:23,960
Speaker 1: to make sure it's because some places are really sensitive

1633
01:45:24,240 --> 01:45:27,120
Speaker 1: and you know there's species out of that are sensitive that,

1634
01:45:27,840 --> 01:45:29,559
Speaker 1: you know, make it hard for us to have public

1635
01:45:29,640 --> 01:45:32,120
Speaker 1: access to those places. So they're in Michigan. We found

1636
01:45:32,320 --> 01:45:36,559
Speaker 1: We were hiking one time on a nature conservancy property

1637
01:45:36,840 --> 01:45:39,479
Speaker 1: and found a bunch of spawn and bluegills on a pond.

1638
01:45:40,840 --> 01:45:42,800
Speaker 1: I got a little nervous about it and did some

1639
01:45:43,080 --> 01:45:45,439
Speaker 1: checking around. This is not by Traverse City. Did some

1640
01:45:45,560 --> 01:45:47,640
Speaker 1: checking around and turned out that we were allowed to

1641
01:45:47,640 --> 01:45:51,960
Speaker 1: go fish those bluegills, and we did, but we checked

1642
01:45:52,080 --> 01:45:59,439
Speaker 1: with a fly rode within that no cooking worm man, Okay,

1643
01:46:00,040 --> 01:46:05,639
Speaker 1: that giling that out there. We were interesting. Here's why.

1644
01:46:05,720 --> 01:46:07,760
Speaker 1: Here's why we got to think. And you couldn't. We

1645
01:46:07,840 --> 01:46:11,400
Speaker 1: thought you couldn't because no one was And be like,

1646
01:46:11,439 --> 01:46:13,120
Speaker 1: how could it be the all these blue girls are

1647
01:46:13,120 --> 01:46:15,880
Speaker 1: in here, like spawning in plain sight and no one's

1648
01:46:15,920 --> 01:46:17,960
Speaker 1: angling form. It must be that you're not allowed to.

1649
01:46:18,800 --> 01:46:20,759
Speaker 1: But it's just that everybody else made the same mistake

1650
01:46:20,840 --> 01:46:24,040
Speaker 1: we made, assuming that you couldn't. Yeah, well, always check

1651
01:46:24,160 --> 01:46:29,760
Speaker 1: with your local nature conservancy, uh program? Yeah we did

1652
01:46:30,400 --> 01:46:34,000
Speaker 1: and it was cool. Okay, what else? Give us a

1653
01:46:34,040 --> 01:46:37,200
Speaker 1: final give us a final thing, man, like, let's do this. Oh,

1654
01:46:37,320 --> 01:46:39,439
Speaker 1: I want to ask you this too. The thing I

1655
01:46:39,479 --> 01:46:44,200
Speaker 1: mentioned GM. Yeah, when they said, Okay, everybody acted like

1656
01:46:44,280 --> 01:46:45,880
Speaker 1: it was all over the news, but I didn't think

1657
01:46:45,880 --> 01:46:52,120
Speaker 1: that it felt that ambitious. What was the year twenty fifth, fifty? Yeah,

1658
01:46:52,120 --> 01:46:54,240
Speaker 1: I think it's like thirty five or something like that.

1659
01:46:54,360 --> 01:46:56,759
Speaker 1: And they're you know, they're not the only car company

1660
01:46:56,800 --> 01:47:02,599
Speaker 1: making that commitment. I mean, Evolve, Toyota, I think Forward

1661
01:47:02,600 --> 01:47:06,960
Speaker 1: as well. You know, they've all made commitments to essentially

1662
01:47:07,400 --> 01:47:13,240
Speaker 1: completely replace internal combustion engines with electric or other non

1663
01:47:13,800 --> 01:47:19,280
Speaker 1: fossil fuel based technologies, you know, sometime in the next

1664
01:47:19,320 --> 01:47:23,120
Speaker 1: two decades. And the reason it doesn't surprise me is

1665
01:47:24,760 --> 01:47:30,120
Speaker 1: twofold one is the the economics of it are getting

1666
01:47:30,160 --> 01:47:32,960
Speaker 1: better and better. So, you know, it used to be

1667
01:47:33,400 --> 01:47:35,320
Speaker 1: the only electric car you get out There was a

1668
01:47:35,320 --> 01:47:39,559
Speaker 1: Tesla that costs you a hundred grand. Uh. Now you

1669
01:47:39,680 --> 01:47:46,120
Speaker 1: can get cars that are thirty five grand, thirty grand um.

1670
01:47:46,200 --> 01:47:48,240
Speaker 1: And when you know, obviously if you have a federal

1671
01:47:48,320 --> 01:47:50,400
Speaker 1: tax credit, that makes it even more attractive. So you're

1672
01:47:50,400 --> 01:47:54,160
Speaker 1: getting to the point where those vehicles are starting to

1673
01:47:54,200 --> 01:47:58,920
Speaker 1: be competitive. You're also are getting batteries that enable you

1674
01:47:59,040 --> 01:48:01,519
Speaker 1: to power more kinds of vehicles. You know, it used

1675
01:48:01,520 --> 01:48:05,439
Speaker 1: to be, you know, it would just cars, sedans, um,

1676
01:48:05,520 --> 01:48:10,640
Speaker 1: that would be manufactured as electric vehicles. Now we have

1677
01:48:10,760 --> 01:48:14,360
Speaker 1: a whole set of you know, pickups and SUVs that

1678
01:48:14,360 --> 01:48:16,479
Speaker 1: are going to be coming out that are electric powered.

1679
01:48:17,240 --> 01:48:19,600
Speaker 1: And they have and here's the second reason. They have

1680
01:48:19,720 --> 01:48:24,240
Speaker 1: some real advantages over our conventional internal combustion engine cars

1681
01:48:24,880 --> 01:48:30,599
Speaker 1: in the following sense. They almost require no maintenance, very

1682
01:48:30,640 --> 01:48:34,600
Speaker 1: little maintenance in contrast to internal complexity. You don't have

1683
01:48:34,640 --> 01:48:37,799
Speaker 1: to change the oil. Um, you may have gear trains

1684
01:48:37,800 --> 01:48:40,479
Speaker 1: that are much simpler. You actually have a motor that's

1685
01:48:40,479 --> 01:48:43,760
Speaker 1: in each wheel. You don't have, you know, a transmission

1686
01:48:43,800 --> 01:48:47,679
Speaker 1: system with linkages and things that actually make the engine

1687
01:48:47,720 --> 01:48:50,280
Speaker 1: less efficient in delivering power to the wheels. You actually

1688
01:48:50,360 --> 01:48:55,559
Speaker 1: have an electric engine or motor with each wheel. Uh.

1689
01:48:55,760 --> 01:49:02,120
Speaker 1: You have that kind of less cost of ownership over time.

1690
01:49:02,200 --> 01:49:06,120
Speaker 1: So that makes them more affordable. And I think where

1691
01:49:06,120 --> 01:49:09,400
Speaker 1: you're going to see the biggest progress with electric vehicles

1692
01:49:09,400 --> 01:49:13,559
Speaker 1: before they become more widespread with the public is with fleets. Right.

1693
01:49:13,640 --> 01:49:18,519
Speaker 1: So fleet uh, company companies that have large fleets, let's

1694
01:49:18,560 --> 01:49:22,240
Speaker 1: say FedEx or Ups for example. Yeah, they have all

1695
01:49:22,280 --> 01:49:25,639
Speaker 1: these trucks and vehicles that are out there making deliveries

1696
01:49:25,680 --> 01:49:28,840
Speaker 1: every day. They typically are out there for two d

1697
01:49:29,000 --> 01:49:35,760
Speaker 1: miles or something or less every day, and they require

1698
01:49:35,800 --> 01:49:38,760
Speaker 1: a lot of maintenance for all those vehicles all the

1699
01:49:38,800 --> 01:49:41,880
Speaker 1: time because it's stop and start driving, which is hard

1700
01:49:41,920 --> 01:49:45,240
Speaker 1: on internal combustion vehicles, and so there's a lot of

1701
01:49:45,240 --> 01:49:49,080
Speaker 1: maintenance required. So the idea of having an electric vehicle

1702
01:49:49,280 --> 01:49:55,880
Speaker 1: that you know has dramatically less maintenance means you have

1703
01:49:56,240 --> 01:49:59,799
Speaker 1: a much lower cost again of ownership of that fleet,

1704
01:50:00,280 --> 01:50:03,519
Speaker 1: and so that could be very attractive to a fleet owner.

1705
01:50:03,600 --> 01:50:05,599
Speaker 1: So that's where you're gonna see. I think a lot

1706
01:50:05,640 --> 01:50:09,479
Speaker 1: of these technologies really get further refined, and then we're

1707
01:50:09,520 --> 01:50:13,200
Speaker 1: gonna see it proliferating more and more into the public

1708
01:50:13,240 --> 01:50:17,519
Speaker 1: space where people who are motivated by something beyond carbon

1709
01:50:17,600 --> 01:50:21,000
Speaker 1: footprint are going electric just because it makes sense. Yeah,

1710
01:50:21,080 --> 01:50:24,719
Speaker 1: that's what it is today, but increasingly, I i'd predict

1711
01:50:24,800 --> 01:50:27,840
Speaker 1: in the next five to ten years, you know, the

1712
01:50:28,080 --> 01:50:30,320
Speaker 1: the fact of car people are gonna be buying is

1713
01:50:30,360 --> 01:50:33,400
Speaker 1: going to be electric because it's it's the same price

1714
01:50:33,600 --> 01:50:35,760
Speaker 1: as an internal combustion and it doesn't have all the

1715
01:50:35,760 --> 01:50:38,320
Speaker 1: maintenance problems. And I was I was in a nice

1716
01:50:38,320 --> 01:50:42,559
Speaker 1: one recently, and my god, the acceleration, it's awesome through

1717
01:50:42,600 --> 01:50:44,640
Speaker 1: the like put your eyeballs in the back of your

1718
01:50:44,640 --> 01:50:47,680
Speaker 1: head and made my daughter very nervous. Yeah, I mean

1719
01:50:47,760 --> 01:50:50,439
Speaker 1: these cars typically can go zero to was in a

1720
01:50:50,680 --> 01:50:55,120
Speaker 1: like a souped up tesla, but it's like it's unsettling.

1721
01:50:57,320 --> 01:51:00,080
Speaker 1: My dollar thought we were doing something wrong. The the

1722
01:51:00,160 --> 01:51:02,639
Speaker 1: the rate at which we got to the speed limit

1723
01:51:02,760 --> 01:51:04,640
Speaker 1: made her feel that there was like that we were

1724
01:51:04,640 --> 01:51:10,479
Speaker 1: going to get a ticket. It was incredible. Anyways, So

1725
01:51:10,560 --> 01:51:20,320
Speaker 1: GM will sell only zero emission vehicles by um, yeah,

1726
01:51:20,360 --> 01:51:24,680
Speaker 1: I mean I guess that like that could happen. That's

1727
01:51:24,680 --> 01:51:26,400
Speaker 1: I was trying to figure out. I was like, are

1728
01:51:26,439 --> 01:51:28,519
Speaker 1: they Here's I was trying to figure out and I

1729
01:51:28,520 --> 01:51:30,760
Speaker 1: never read enough about it. When GM made that announcement,

1730
01:51:31,640 --> 01:51:34,400
Speaker 1: was one day some guys saying, huh, you know, at

1731
01:51:34,400 --> 01:51:36,880
Speaker 1: the rate we're going and the way the markets are,

1732
01:51:37,640 --> 01:51:42,040
Speaker 1: I bet you by this will be the truth. Or

1733
01:51:42,400 --> 01:51:44,479
Speaker 1: did some guys say it like let's push for this

1734
01:51:44,560 --> 01:51:48,280
Speaker 1: goal and the engineers are like, can't be done, and

1735
01:51:48,360 --> 01:51:51,120
Speaker 1: they're like, my god, we can do it. We put

1736
01:51:51,160 --> 01:51:52,840
Speaker 1: a man on the moon. Like I'd love to know

1737
01:51:52,960 --> 01:51:56,240
Speaker 1: like how the conversation went. If it was more like

1738
01:51:56,320 --> 01:51:58,559
Speaker 1: it's just where everything's headed. There's not a big deal.

1739
01:51:58,640 --> 01:52:01,280
Speaker 1: We'd laying there anyway. But let's hey, I wasn't in

1740
01:52:01,280 --> 01:52:03,679
Speaker 1: the GM board room and then made that decision, But

1741
01:52:03,920 --> 01:52:06,240
Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure there were conversations about that, and

1742
01:52:06,240 --> 01:52:09,760
Speaker 1: I think it was both what's the competitive future, you know,

1743
01:52:09,880 --> 01:52:14,280
Speaker 1: who are we competing against, because you know, before GM

1744
01:52:14,360 --> 01:52:18,400
Speaker 1: there were other major manufacturings making that commitment. But I

1745
01:52:18,439 --> 01:52:22,280
Speaker 1: think it was also just a recognition that the technologies

1746
01:52:22,320 --> 01:52:26,840
Speaker 1: are improving. They can start to envision the scalability of it,

1747
01:52:26,920 --> 01:52:29,679
Speaker 1: the affordability of it, and it becomes more and more

1748
01:52:29,720 --> 01:52:34,679
Speaker 1: clear that, yeah, that is the way to go. What's

1749
01:52:34,720 --> 01:52:39,800
Speaker 1: interesting is, you know, during the last administration, administration you know,

1750
01:52:39,880 --> 01:52:42,479
Speaker 1: really wanted to try and roll back the clean energy

1751
01:52:42,560 --> 01:52:46,400
Speaker 1: standards for cars, for vehicles in California, right the Cafe standards,

1752
01:52:47,280 --> 01:52:50,120
Speaker 1: And actually a lot of the vehicle manufacturers said, no, no,

1753
01:52:50,200 --> 01:52:53,479
Speaker 1: don't do that. We're actually on track to, you know,

1754
01:52:53,560 --> 01:52:57,000
Speaker 1: to meet those standards and exceed them. In fact, we

1755
01:52:57,040 --> 01:52:59,320
Speaker 1: think that's a good thing competitively for us to be

1756
01:52:59,360 --> 01:53:02,240
Speaker 1: able to do that, because we're gonna be competing with

1757
01:53:02,320 --> 01:53:06,160
Speaker 1: cars from Japan and from China and from Europe where

1758
01:53:06,200 --> 01:53:08,400
Speaker 1: they are doing that stuff. And if we're not doing

1759
01:53:08,439 --> 01:53:12,360
Speaker 1: that stuff, We're gonna be caught uncompetitive at least with

1760
01:53:12,400 --> 01:53:14,360
Speaker 1: the rest of the world. So we need to keep

1761
01:53:14,439 --> 01:53:19,160
Speaker 1: up with the competition. As we record this, there's blackouts

1762
01:53:19,200 --> 01:53:23,280
Speaker 1: happening at across Texas and the Dakotas. How would things

1763
01:53:23,320 --> 01:53:28,640
Speaker 1: be better or worse if we relied more on renewable energy.

1764
01:53:29,040 --> 01:53:33,080
Speaker 1: I think actually it would be better. I'll tell you why.

1765
01:53:33,479 --> 01:53:37,639
Speaker 1: Um So, first of all, let's recognize what's driving the blackouts. Now.

1766
01:53:37,720 --> 01:53:41,800
Speaker 1: It isn't simply that you know, wind turbans are iced

1767
01:53:41,880 --> 01:53:47,200
Speaker 1: up and can't move. I mean here in Montana, Wyoming, Iowa, Minnesota,

1768
01:53:47,760 --> 01:53:50,840
Speaker 1: you know we have wind turbans, you know, many many

1769
01:53:50,920 --> 01:53:53,800
Speaker 1: thousands of them, no problem in the wintertime, and that's

1770
01:53:53,840 --> 01:53:58,479
Speaker 1: because they're winterized and they're you know, they're they're prepared

1771
01:53:58,520 --> 01:54:00,519
Speaker 1: to deal with that kind of client tech as they're not.

1772
01:54:01,040 --> 01:54:04,160
Speaker 1: And in fact, in Texas, natural gas plants and coal

1773
01:54:04,200 --> 01:54:07,599
Speaker 1: plants and nuclear plants aren't either, and those shut down

1774
01:54:07,600 --> 01:54:12,320
Speaker 1: way more than winded according to Aircott report I heard yesterday.

1775
01:54:12,439 --> 01:54:15,559
Speaker 1: And so you know, natural gas lines are freezing going

1776
01:54:15,600 --> 01:54:20,400
Speaker 1: into plants. Coal piles are frozen so hard they can't

1777
01:54:20,479 --> 01:54:22,839
Speaker 1: get the coal move to put it on the conveyor

1778
01:54:22,880 --> 01:54:25,919
Speaker 1: belt to take it into the plant, and water cooling

1779
01:54:26,000 --> 01:54:30,120
Speaker 1: systems at nuclear plants are frozen because again they're not insulated,

1780
01:54:30,120 --> 01:54:32,920
Speaker 1: they're not winter rised, they're not used to those kind

1781
01:54:32,960 --> 01:54:37,160
Speaker 1: of temperatures. The other reason why Texas is experiencing the

1782
01:54:37,320 --> 01:54:41,280
Speaker 1: energy blackouts that it's seeing currently is because they have

1783
01:54:41,360 --> 01:54:45,400
Speaker 1: a grid that's unto themselves. It's you know that the

1784
01:54:45,560 --> 01:54:50,760
Speaker 1: Energy Reliability uh system AIRCOT, it's called that's a grid

1785
01:54:50,840 --> 01:54:53,480
Speaker 1: manager and it's only Texas. It does not connect to

1786
01:54:53,520 --> 01:54:55,960
Speaker 1: the rest of the country. If they had a grid

1787
01:54:56,040 --> 01:54:59,920
Speaker 1: system that actually we're better interconnected. Uh, there would be

1788
01:55:00,120 --> 01:55:02,600
Speaker 1: energy from other parts of the company that come the

1789
01:55:02,640 --> 01:55:06,800
Speaker 1: country that could come into Texas. Stuff here man, Yeah,

1790
01:55:08,320 --> 01:55:11,240
Speaker 1: I know, there's there's you know, private independence and ownership,

1791
01:55:11,320 --> 01:55:17,840
Speaker 1: but ultimately that is gave gave up. But actually we're

1792
01:55:17,840 --> 01:55:21,840
Speaker 1: gonna be better off as a country building out renewables

1793
01:55:21,920 --> 01:55:26,400
Speaker 1: and increasing grid connectivity so we can move energy around

1794
01:55:27,000 --> 01:55:29,720
Speaker 1: more easily around the country so that we can get

1795
01:55:29,760 --> 01:55:33,000
Speaker 1: stuff to where it needs to go when it makes sense. Again,

1796
01:55:33,040 --> 01:55:38,880
Speaker 1: this goes back to it's cloudy sometimes, it's dark every day, Um,

1797
01:55:39,000 --> 01:55:42,120
Speaker 1: so we need to have a mix of energy in

1798
01:55:42,160 --> 01:55:45,320
Speaker 1: a lot of places, all interconnected, and they can flow

1799
01:55:45,360 --> 01:55:48,000
Speaker 1: around the country to where it's most needed. That's going

1800
01:55:48,080 --> 01:55:51,400
Speaker 1: to be part of the renewable energy solution that will

1801
01:55:51,480 --> 01:55:56,680
Speaker 1: actually help us. Well. We have things that can drive blackouts,

1802
01:55:57,280 --> 01:56:02,600
Speaker 1: like these big energy are these big climate impacts like

1803
01:56:02,640 --> 01:56:05,480
Speaker 1: we're seeing in Texas today with the cold weather, or

1804
01:56:05,560 --> 01:56:08,120
Speaker 1: like we saw in California last year with all the

1805
01:56:08,160 --> 01:56:10,880
Speaker 1: heat and the fires, which by the way, it wasn't

1806
01:56:11,280 --> 01:56:15,919
Speaker 1: solar projects that couldn't generate energy. It was forest fires

1807
01:56:15,960 --> 01:56:19,840
Speaker 1: burning transmission lines that actually were set by transmission lines

1808
01:56:20,240 --> 01:56:24,080
Speaker 1: arcing UM. And a big part of why the California

1809
01:56:24,160 --> 01:56:27,960
Speaker 1: system experienced so many problems last year was because of

1810
01:56:28,000 --> 01:56:32,640
Speaker 1: transmission lines. You haven't heard that conspiracy that it's um

1811
01:56:32,960 --> 01:56:38,480
Speaker 1: Israeli lasers you gotta get you got you hip to

1812
01:56:38,480 --> 01:56:43,600
Speaker 1: the news man, Jewish lasers. That's not I mean, let's

1813
01:56:44,120 --> 01:56:50,840
Speaker 1: make sure we're accurate, isn't Isn't that though? Mining for

1814
01:56:52,000 --> 01:56:54,360
Speaker 1: a lot more copper and digging up a lot more

1815
01:56:54,440 --> 01:57:00,480
Speaker 1: ground put all that connectivity in there. Yeah, Like I'm

1816
01:57:00,520 --> 01:57:08,200
Speaker 1: just so, there's no there's no I think the moral

1817
01:57:08,200 --> 01:57:10,360
Speaker 1: of the story is be more like and be more

1818
01:57:10,440 --> 01:57:13,280
Speaker 1: conscientious like Cal and live like Buck Bowden in the

1819
01:57:13,280 --> 01:57:15,760
Speaker 1: middle of nowhere, and you'll let your kids when they

1820
01:57:15,840 --> 01:57:18,720
Speaker 1: leave their closet light on. What is this gonna do

1821
01:57:19,080 --> 01:57:23,080
Speaker 1: to the trade in value of my Toyota tundra? I mean,

1822
01:57:23,160 --> 01:57:26,200
Speaker 1: I'm about about the time GM is making that switch.

1823
01:57:26,280 --> 01:57:27,800
Speaker 1: Is about the time we'll be looking for a new

1824
01:57:27,920 --> 01:57:33,240
Speaker 1: rail cal traded in fast. I mean it's still be

1825
01:57:33,280 --> 01:57:38,080
Speaker 1: good for a while, all right, Uh Okay, how do

1826
01:57:38,160 --> 01:57:41,160
Speaker 1: people go Let's say they wanted to go read up

1827
01:57:41,200 --> 01:57:43,960
Speaker 1: on this and you guys have do you have the

1828
01:57:44,120 --> 01:57:48,760
Speaker 1: sort of policy stance or like, where do people go?

1829
01:57:49,120 --> 01:57:50,840
Speaker 1: They're like, man, I need to find out or I

1830
01:57:50,880 --> 01:57:53,680
Speaker 1: need to refute this guy or whatever they want to do. Yeah,

1831
01:57:53,960 --> 01:57:56,800
Speaker 1: I'll provide Coren some links that you can load up

1832
01:57:56,880 --> 01:58:00,280
Speaker 1: so that any reader, any of the listeners out Derek

1833
01:58:00,360 --> 01:58:02,120
Speaker 1: and follow up and learn more about some of the

1834
01:58:02,200 --> 01:58:05,240
Speaker 1: solutions that we're working on. And um, you know I

1835
01:58:05,240 --> 01:58:07,400
Speaker 1: talked about the mining the son. Another one that we're

1836
01:58:07,440 --> 01:58:13,720
Speaker 1: working on is is you know what about marginal agricultural lands?

1837
01:58:13,760 --> 01:58:17,360
Speaker 1: You know, what role could they play? And one farmer's

1838
01:58:17,440 --> 01:58:21,400
Speaker 1: marginal is another farmer's you know, best place, but you know,

1839
01:58:21,520 --> 01:58:25,320
Speaker 1: for example, yea, we irgate a lot of land in

1840
01:58:25,360 --> 01:58:29,200
Speaker 1: the west for alfalfa, you know, and some of that

1841
01:58:29,280 --> 01:58:32,560
Speaker 1: land is really poor productivity, and the water is extremely

1842
01:58:32,640 --> 01:58:36,240
Speaker 1: valuable for lots of things besides the low value crop

1843
01:58:36,360 --> 01:58:39,760
Speaker 1: like alfalfa. Maybe you know, maybe we should put solar

1844
01:58:39,800 --> 01:58:44,360
Speaker 1: there instead of alfalfa and the fish benefit, people benefit, um,

1845
01:58:44,400 --> 01:58:47,840
Speaker 1: the rancher gets more money. Money might maybe more money.

1846
01:58:48,160 --> 01:58:50,280
Speaker 1: Uh you know, we have a place where we're not

1847
01:58:50,320 --> 01:58:52,800
Speaker 1: going to fight over you know, something going on the

1848
01:58:52,840 --> 01:58:58,200
Speaker 1: ground there because uh you know. So those are the

1849
01:58:58,320 --> 01:59:01,720
Speaker 1: solutions that I like. That kind of thing in there, man,

1850
01:59:02,160 --> 01:59:04,120
Speaker 1: like where they do. Like a guy's already doing it.

1851
01:59:04,280 --> 01:59:06,880
Speaker 1: He's using water. He walks away. I don't know if

1852
01:59:06,880 --> 01:59:10,680
Speaker 1: this is true or not. He walks away with more money. Yeah,

1853
01:59:10,800 --> 01:59:13,920
Speaker 1: I mean, less water gets used. We think that there

1854
01:59:13,960 --> 01:59:17,040
Speaker 1: are win win situations out there, and we think there's

1855
01:59:17,040 --> 01:59:19,960
Speaker 1: a lot of them. Actually, let's figure out where they

1856
01:59:20,000 --> 01:59:23,360
Speaker 1: are and how we unlock those places. Let's do that

1857
01:59:24,480 --> 01:59:26,920
Speaker 1: so we can spend less time fighting over it and

1858
01:59:26,960 --> 01:59:29,200
Speaker 1: more time hunting and fishing in the places that we

1859
01:59:29,280 --> 01:59:31,320
Speaker 1: love to go. This alfalf will deal. You better talk

1860
01:59:31,360 --> 01:59:33,840
Speaker 1: to Mark Kenyan because he probably likes those he likes

1861
01:59:33,840 --> 01:59:37,960
Speaker 1: those alfalfa fields. Tail. Hey, I'm not saying get rid

1862
01:59:37,960 --> 01:59:40,520
Speaker 1: of all of them, right, I mean we still malfalf out.

1863
01:59:40,560 --> 01:59:44,520
Speaker 1: There is gonna be an anti renewable crusader once you

1864
01:59:44,560 --> 01:59:48,920
Speaker 1: start talking about ruining all of his lfalfa fields. All right, uh,

1865
01:59:49,000 --> 01:59:52,640
Speaker 1: Nels Johnson, thank you very much for joining us, the

1866
01:59:52,680 --> 01:59:58,080
Speaker 1: North American Energy Program director at the Nature Conservancy. And

1867
01:59:58,720 --> 02:00:00,800
Speaker 1: if you, even if you don't realize that you have

1868
02:00:00,960 --> 02:00:07,520
Speaker 1: probably been on some of their properties. I know I have.

1869
02:00:08,080 --> 02:00:11,520
Speaker 1: I sure have killed an elk on one. Yeah, we're

1870
02:00:11,600 --> 02:00:14,080
Speaker 1: going well. I'd i'd like to point out to cal

1871
02:00:14,240 --> 02:00:16,280
Speaker 1: you gotta seek a deer on one. Oh I did

1872
02:00:16,280 --> 02:00:18,920
Speaker 1: get a seekret deer on one. Yes, all right, Thank

1873
02:00:18,920 --> 02:00:21,320
Speaker 1: you very much, appreciate you coming on. As things shake out,

1874
02:00:21,480 --> 02:00:23,440
Speaker 1: we'll hopefully we'll have you back to explain where we're

1875
02:00:23,480 --> 02:00:25,840
Speaker 1: at in the future. All right, body else, all right,

1876
02:00:25,840 --> 02:00:26,920
Speaker 1: thank you very much. Thanks