WEBVTT - Do video games produce real-life violence? 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:02.960 Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray. 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:07.600 It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff you should know 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:16.360 from house Stuff Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:19.919 the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. This Charles W. Chuck Bryant. 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:22.400 You can probably hear his forehead and scraping against his 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:26.000 mic cover. You do not feel like doing us today? Do? No, 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:29.000 We're gonna do it anyway. I mean, yes, we do 0:00:29.080 --> 0:00:31.880 not know we do? You can't affirm with the negative, 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:36.479 yes we don't. Well, there it is Chuck, the cleverest 0:00:36.479 --> 0:00:41.239 banter we will ever have. Um. Hey, how are you? 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:43.680 How are you? I'm fine, man, I'm feeling aggressive. I 0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:46.720 want to punch something. You've been playing violent video games, 0:00:46.760 --> 0:00:49.400 and I've been reading about people playing violent video games. 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:53.479 It's apparently the magic bullet. It's what really makes you 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:57.560 aggressive reading about that kind of thing. Oh, reading about yeah, 0:00:57.640 --> 0:01:00.640 articles on that sure. Yeah, so we need to be 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:05.479 watching out for um. Yeah, people who read like parenting 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:08.800 sections on like HuffPo or MSNBC, or like some of 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:13.320 the most violent criminals now because of those um, Chuck, 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:18.319 are you familiar with a little country called Germany? Mm? 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:23.039 Hmm yeah, old Uh is that that's Russian, isn't it? 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:28.160 That's Germany. I don't know if you've noticed this' not chuck, 0:01:28.240 --> 0:01:30.959 but over the last few weeks, I've gotten increasingly dumber. 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:35.600 Have you picked up on that? Who you have? I have? UM? 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:39.160 I don't really know. My the frequency of mispronouncing words 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:44.560 has just gone up dramatically, which is really saying something. Um. 0:01:44.160 --> 0:01:47.160 Uh getting language is wrong, as I just did. That's 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:50.160 a big one. Uh fallen asleep in the middle of 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:54.880 stuff like I'm about to right now. Okay, Uh, chuck, 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:58.120 you've heard of Germany? Uh. In two thousand six, late 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:01.320 two thousand six, there was some thing of a fairly 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:06.320 radical proposal that came up from the representatives of Bavaria 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:10.520 and Lower Saxony get those two together. Things happen normally, 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:14.640 not in this case, but normally. The representatives proposed a 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:20.720 bill that would offer fines of uh. Well, I don't 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:22.680 know how much the fines were, but the penalty of 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:27.760 jail time up to twelve months for um may I 0:02:27.840 --> 0:02:33.600 quote uh, cruel violence on humans or human looking characters 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:39.720 inside games. So creating a game inside games, yes, said, yeah, 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:43.680 that's funny. Creating a game where there is violence violence 0:02:43.760 --> 0:02:48.520 can happen, or playing a video game and inflicting violence 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:52.000 virtual violence could get your twelve months in jail, according 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:56.720 to these guys. So you can't play Call of Duty 0:02:56.840 --> 0:02:58.680 you would spend the rest of your life in jail. 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:04.560 If these guys had had their rather radical resolution passed, 0:03:06.480 --> 0:03:09.359 it felt flat on its face. But the whole thing 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:15.000 was in reaction to um the the prior month, the 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:20.120 spree killing or almost I guess free maiming by Sebastian Boss, 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:23.640 who was eighteen. He was the worst school shooter Germany 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:28.680 ever had. Any He wounded thirty seven people, didn't kill anybody, Um, 0:03:28.720 --> 0:03:33.000 but he did kill himself. You you you remember he 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:35.520 played counter Strike a lot. I find it interesting that 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:39.360 he shot thirty seven people and didn't kill anyone. I'll 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:42.720 bet he found that something other than interesting. Did he 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:46.120 try to just wound? No, I know that's probably dumb question. No, 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:49.320 he went on a rampage and he just missed. Okay, 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:53.600 so anyway, this is god he well yeah, he um, 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:55.640 but he played a lot of counter Strike. That was 0:03:55.720 --> 0:03:58.640 his big thing. And nowadays is you you have grown 0:03:58.720 --> 0:04:01.760 up and since the nine and you've been paying attention, 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:04.680 so you know that anytime there's a spree shooting at 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:08.119 a school by a teenager, one of the first things 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:10.720 that comes out is what their violent video game of 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:16.280 choice was. And legislation like this out of Germany. Is 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:19.960 it is radical like putting someone in jail for acts 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:24.159 of virtual violence? Um, but it's it's getting to be 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:27.039 par for the course, you know, which leads us to 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:30.160 a very big question, though, before you start throwing people 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:33.680 in jail for playing video games, before creating video games, 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:37.600 we have to prove whether or not video games is 0:04:37.960 --> 0:04:43.000 especially violent ones cause real life violence. And as I 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:45.760 learned after reading this article, the jury is very much 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:50.200 still out on that. Yeah, although both sides have very 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:55.280 persuasive arguments, and I think you should explore buff Um, 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:57.159 I'm just gonna go ahead and say it's probably hard 0:04:57.200 --> 0:05:02.440 to prove anything when it comes to this. Why. Well, 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:04.839 because of all the reasons we're going to mention, it's 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:07.960 it's a very complicated issue. Yeah, Um, whether or not 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:09.920 that was the thing that pushed someone over the edge, 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:12.040 or whether or not it was an inspiration, whether or 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:14.200 not it had nothing to do with it. It's uh, 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:17.760 it's tough to prove something like that, right, And there's 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:20.120 a lot of people who are like, yes, school shooters 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:24.840 are horrifying, They're terrifying. The idea that your kid could 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:28.039 go to school and get shot and killed by a 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:31.760 classmate on a rampage, that's that that would terrify anybody. 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:33.200 So yeah, of course you want to get to the 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:35.480 root of it. But a lot of people are saying, 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:39.000 don't stop at video games. Even the a p A, 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:44.800 The American Psychological Association, UM, who are very much in 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:47.880 favor of the idea that violent video games cause real 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:51.760 life violence, say, don't just stop at video games, like 0:05:51.800 --> 0:05:55.040 that's one part of a larger hole, and we've not 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:58.159 figured it out because video games. You can just lay 0:05:58.200 --> 0:06:00.360 that at the feet of one thing and go back 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:03.479 to work. Let your let your kids go back to 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:06.320 playing video games. Yeah, I gotta quote, I was gonna 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:08.119 hang onto this might as well read it though. UM. 0:06:08.160 --> 0:06:11.880 There's a book written called Grand Theft Childhood, The Surprising 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:14.520 Truth about Violent video Games and what Parents can do, 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:18.320 And this is by Lawrence Kutner and Cheryl Olsen, and 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:21.919 they are co directors of the Harvard Medical School Center 0:06:21.960 --> 0:06:26.239 for Mental Health and media. They wrote this book. Um, 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:29.360 and they have a guy that they interviewed, a psychologist 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:34.560 who specializes in media research called Guy Cumberbatch. Wow, it 0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:38.360 sounds like a Simpson's character. He's real though, Um And 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:41.560 he says, uh, and I'm gonna quote. The real puzzle 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:43.760 is that anyone looking at the research evidence in this 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:47.040 field could draw any conclusions about the pattern, let alone 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:50.440 argue with such confidence and even passion that demonstrates the 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:53.360 harmon violence on television, in film, and in video games. 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:57.560 While test of statistical significance are a vital tool of 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:00.440 the social sciences, they seem to have been more often 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:03.240 used in this field as instruments of torture on the 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:07.400 data until it confesses something which could justify publication in 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:13.240 a scientific journal. So basically, he's, in a very verbose way, 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:17.040 kind of said, what you're saying is that it's easy 0:07:17.080 --> 0:07:20.920 to scapegoat something like a video game by looking at 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:26.760 um anecdotal research. It is very easy. Um. And Also, 0:07:26.840 --> 0:07:30.200 I think part of the reason why school shooters not 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:34.840 not just because they're so sensational they are, sure, also 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:38.200 because most if not all of them did play violent 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:42.520 video games, but also because the school shooting rampage so 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:47.960 closely mirrors video game action even to the casual observer. 0:07:48.800 --> 0:07:51.600 Um that I think like it's something that's really been 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:54.480 zeroed in on. Well, the army uses it for training, 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:59.160 you know, and so it's bound to be Uh, it's 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:01.880 bound to put you in that headspace which makes a 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:05.360 lot of sense. Sure, which is that's an argument on 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:09.640 the side of um people who say that, yes, video games, 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:13.160 violent video games create real life violence. So let's let's 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:17.000 explore that. Let's look at the the side that says yes, obviously, 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:20.800 ding Bat, if you play violent video games, you're going 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:23.920 to be violent. And this isn't new. By the way, 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:26.800 we should point out that like before video games, it 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:29.400 was laid at the feet of TV, well, comic books 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:32.320 before that, even before that. And I wondered, though, if 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:34.760 you go back far enough, the media is a fairly 0:08:34.880 --> 0:08:38.520 recent thing, at least as far as like entertainment media. 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:43.560 So say the advent of radio, big radio in like 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:51.600 the twenties. Say, what did anybody blame violence on before that? Uh? 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:56.440 Probably the real reason, which is that some people are sociopaths. Well, 0:08:56.559 --> 0:08:59.240 I think you you make an excellent point, Chuck, What 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:01.000 what you're saying, I think I tend to agree with 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:06.880 is that's possible in in everybody, and then probably more 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:10.079 possible in some of us than others. So is it 0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:12.640 just a convergence of large public schools where you have 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:15.240 a lot of people who you don't like sitting like 0:09:15.320 --> 0:09:19.360 ducks in one place, and converging with access easy access 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:22.959 to guns? Is that all the school shooter is. It's 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:25.640 pretty complicated issue. Okay, so go ahead and sorry about that. 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:28.280 That's all right? UM, I guess we can sign a 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:30.520 couple of more cases that in the media at least 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:35.440 have placed the blame on on video games UM. In 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:39.880 two thousand and six, in Alabama, Devon Moore famously ah 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:44.400 was arrested for car theft UM suspicion and he's eighteen. 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:47.920 Brought him into the station to book him, and he 0:09:48.080 --> 0:09:51.600 kind of went nuts. He attacked the cop, stole his gun, 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:55.000 shot him, shot another cop, went down the hall, shot 0:09:55.040 --> 0:09:57.960 at nine one one dispatch in the head, then grabbed 0:09:58.120 --> 0:10:00.600 the squad car keys and took off in squad car. 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:03.840 That's crazy. And and what game did he play? He 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:06.840 played Grand Theft Auto, which is pretty much how that 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:10.320 game goes down, And reportedly after he was arrested. He 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:13.600 even said, quote life as a video game, everybody's got 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:17.079 to die sometime. And he was convicted and sentenced to death, 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:21.079 and I could not find out if he's still on 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:24.400 death row or if he was put to death. It's 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:26.560 so frustrating when you can't find out something that should 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:28.800 be so easy to find out. Did you try the 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:31.680 Alabama's Department of Corrections website. No, I mean I was 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:33.880 gonna call somebody, but it just ran out of time. 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:36.439 So at any rate, he was convicted, an appealed, and 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:39.680 I think that appeal was denied. But um, when this 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:43.520 happens a lot of times, there are lawsuits filed. In 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:47.679 the case of Columbine, one of the wife of a 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:51.880 teacher there, um sued wh she sue. She sued Sony 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:56.400 and Nintendo and Time Warner and Palm Pictures because, Uh, 0:10:56.840 --> 0:11:00.600 Clibold and Harris had also watched The Basketball Die. Yeah, 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:05.800 you remember that party. But what's strange is that that 0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:08.400 movie came out and with the late nineties, but the 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:11.840 Basketball Diaries were written by Jim Carroll and like the seventies, 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:15.520 maybe in the sixties, and people were thinking about doing 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:19.320 that back then obviously, well and also wonder and boy, 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:20.840 we're gonna be all over the place here, but also 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:24.280 wonder about what constitutes as far as the lawsuit goes, 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:29.560 a negative correlation, Like what if someone made a movie 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:34.000 about the Columbine massacre and some kid watched that and 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:39.120 then later on did his own thing, like if something, 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:42.160 you know, even if that movie decries it and shows 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:45.920 the repercussions, which is one of the big points that 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:48.160 a lot of parents make, because these video games don't 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:51.480 show the repercussions of these actions. It's all just fantasy. 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:54.000 So like, where do you draw the line there as 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:56.000 far as the lawsuit goes? Well, that's also a really 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:57.720 good question, like where do you draw the line as 0:11:57.760 --> 0:12:01.520 far as legislation goes, Because what we're talking about here 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:05.880 basically is say, ultimately, the idea that if video games 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:11.120 cause violence in just some people banning them all together. 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:13.800 It's the same thing like we did with booze and prohibitions. 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:16.760 There are some alcoholics who couldn't help themselves to the 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:19.439 rest of us who weren't alcoholics could just give it up, 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:21.640 and let's just do that, right, But are you gonna 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:26.040 ban movies and TV and comic books and everywhere else 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:30.080 that has any kind of violence portrayed. Art think, So 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:32.319 I don't think that's ever going to be able to happen, 0:12:32.360 --> 0:12:35.840 And no, I don't. I think ultimately, if you follow 0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:38.440 that argument to its logical conclusion, now you come to 0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:41.440 where you and I are sitting, which is, no, there's 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:45.760 some crazy people out there and some are kids. All right, 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:47.199 So should we talk about a little bit of the 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:51.199 studies in the science behind it. Yeah, So like on 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:54.440 the in the camp where they where they think that yes, 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:58.839 violent video games cause violence. There problem, Their most persuasive 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:04.400 argument is that, yes, TV has been linked to aggressive 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:08.480 behavior in kids. Right, TV violence has been through other studies. 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:10.120 They've been doing this for years and years and years. 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:15.080 Video games are relatively new, but um by extension, video 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:20.080 games should be even more prone degenerating violence in the 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:26.199 player because playing video games is more immersive than watching television. 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:32.200 You're interacting, right. Also though they're based on the reward 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:37.120 system of learning, right conditioning exactly, So if I if 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:40.720 I shoot you and behind you is like this magic donut, 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:43.040 and I get like, I get another life once I 0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:46.040 grab the magic donut, right, I'm gonna shoot you, and 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:48.160 I'm gonna learn the next time that I need to 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:50.679 shoot you again to get that magic donut. Last time 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:54.600 I got the reward. That's a pretty broad basic example, 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:57.559 but the the whole point of video games is based on, 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:00.960 like you said, classical conditioning. They should have a podcaster 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:04.720 game where it's like us and Mark Marrin and Ira 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:07.600 Glass and Jesse Thorne and we're all like out there 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:10.480 trying to kill each other, all right. I think that 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:13.040 would do us all a little good. Judge Judge John 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:17.680 Hodgman like presides over the whole thing. I don't know though, 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:23.480 Adam Carola going down, Yeah, who would you take on first? 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:31.360 Probably um you? It would be like um Golden Eye 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:34.040 and just get trapped in the corner and just keep 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:36.239 shooting me and waiting for me to come back. And 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:38.240 one of those things where we're supposed to be teammates 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:39.920 and like, you know, you can kill your own guy 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:43.800 sometimes and what call of duty? Right? Um? I think 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:45.400 a lot of those games where you can partner up, 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:47.400 you can still shoot your partners. You used to not 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:49.960 be the case. Oh it would just like fire by 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:51.760 you or something. Yeh. You just sit there and like 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:54.360 kind of move a little bit, but like nothing happened 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:56.360 to you, It didn't have any effect on your life. 0:14:56.800 --> 0:15:00.000 Oh good stuff. So those are two big ones there. 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:03.280 Immersive and they use classical conditioning. What else? Why else 0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:06.960 would a video game cause violence more be more likely 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:10.040 to cause violence than just play on TV. Well, they 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:12.160 did one study where they actually hook kids up to 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:15.600 uh it didn't actually say what they just said they 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:17.320 scanned the brain. So I'm guessing an m R. I 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:22.120 UM in two thousand six at Indiana University and they 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:24.960 UM have them play two games, A Need for Speed 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:29.800 Underground and Medal of Honor colon frontline One is non 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:31.960 violent Need for Speed I guess, and Medal of Honor 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:35.680 is violent. First person shooters were talking about if you 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:38.840 don't know what that is, carl out from under a rock, 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:41.600 But it's when you are. It's the point of view 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:48.080 of the person walking around shooting people. Is you? Um 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:50.600 And the brain scans say showed that the kids who 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:54.600 played the violent game showed increased activity in the amygdala, 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:59.360 which stimulates emotion, decreased activity in the prefrontal cortext or 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:04.120 lobe regulates inhibition and self control. Right, you realize what 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:08.600 you just described, right, zombie zombie. I think you're gonna 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:11.080 say that. But my question is is, like, wouldn't it 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:13.680 be more cause of concern if there was like zero 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:16.480 emotion going on. If these kids are playing these violent 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:19.320 games and make it like shut down, that would freak 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:21.400 me out. It's a really good point because the whole 0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:24.080 idea behind video games is to trick the brain into 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:27.960 thinking that it's actually experiencing the game play. Right. I 0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:30.160 get like I don't play much anymore, but when I 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:32.800 play Call of Duty, I would way get into it 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:35.080 and like my heart would increase, and like if someone 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:37.840 snuck up behind me and it was like, you know, 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:40.240 it puts you there. But that's to me, like the 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:42.800 fun of those games. Well, yeah, it's the point of them. Right, 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:46.960 So your fighter fight or flight response is aroused, Um, 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:50.040 your heart rates up, like you said, you're perspiring, you're jumpie, 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:54.280 you know, But how does that translate to video games? 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:57.000 And I guess an even bigger question is how long 0:16:57.040 --> 0:16:59.720 does that state of arousal last? Like if it did 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:03.600 trans violent, Really, the only person who's in trouble is 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:06.480 you know, your big brother or your best friend who 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:08.920 you're playing next to, who just killed you and you 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:11.160 lean over and you punch them like, yeah, I've done 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:13.560 that before. Well that happens. Actually, I saw a bunch 0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:16.800 of cases where and it wasn't just violent video games. 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:20.800 It was like people playing John Madden. Uh would like 0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:23.399 one guy Wisconsin, I think hit his buddy with a 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:26.240 lead pipe, and then you know this one guy in 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:28.680 England attacked a kid who killed him and call of duty. 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:32.160 But they're like, these people are crazy and competitive and 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:35.320 they might do the same thing playing monopoly. So maybe 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:40.720 it's not violent. It's competitive video games make you violent. 0:17:41.320 --> 0:17:44.360 Maybe that's what we should be looking at. Mak So, right, 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:47.880 let's see what else, Chuck, Oh, I've got one for you. 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:53.120 These studies are just so awesome. Um So, especially after 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:55.239 call him, I get the impression that there was like 0:17:55.320 --> 0:17:59.640 just a rash of studies like this. And then now 0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:02.160 the end is to go back and do meta analysis 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:06.840 of these studies. But um one study found that it 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:14.560 took kids and scored them um with like basically inherent hostility, right, 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:18.120 And what it found was that kids with the lowest 0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:22.320 hostility score they were just the nicest little kids. When 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:26.200 they played violent video games, they were ten times more 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:30.120 likely to get in a physical fight than the kids 0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:33.120 with the lowest hostility scores who didn't play violent video games. 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:36.240 So it was like they were thirty eight percent third 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:38.800 they were, they had a thirty eight percent likelihood he 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:40.960 getting a fight compared to like four so almost ten 0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:44.840 times right, and then even crazier according to the study, Um, 0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:48.440 there the kids with the lowest hostility score who played 0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:51.200 violent video games were more likely to get in a 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:54.280 fight than the kids with the highest hostility scores who 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:56.960 didn't play violent video games at least, so it would 0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:00.280 make nice kids bad and bad kids who didn't played 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:03.080 it would just they would maintain that level or whatever. 0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:06.199 The nice kids who played them were worse than the 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:10.760 bad kids, worse than the worst bad kids. Interesting, Yeah, so, 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:13.080 like studies like these are coming out and it's making 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:16.480 it like more and more clear, Like yes, all right, um, 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:20.200 video games do cause violence, but there's a lot of 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:24.440 ground left to cover before that link can be made, 0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:27.960 if it's ever made, And there's a lot of people 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:29.800 trying to put the reins on this, especially once we 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:32.960 are saying, well, you're you're looking, you're barking up the 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:35.959 wrong tree, Like maybe, so maybe you're even right. But 0:19:36.040 --> 0:19:40.320 this isn't it. This isn't the one thing that's the problem. 0:19:40.359 --> 0:19:43.720 So what are some of the criticisms of this science, 0:19:43.760 --> 0:19:49.120 I guess explaining or showing a link between the two. Uh. Well, 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:53.280 one is that it's a lot of anecdotal stories. Um 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:58.119 this uh the same guy Cumberbatch says, um the strong 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:00.879 link between video games violence and real world violence, and 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:05.400 the conclusion that it leads to social social isolation, poor 0:20:05.440 --> 0:20:09.800 interpersonal skills are drawn from bad and or irrelevant research, 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:14.520 muddle headed thinking, and unfounded simplistic news reports. So that, 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:20.119 for instance, in the Malvo DC sniper case, Lee Malvo, 0:20:20.160 --> 0:20:25.040 remember that his attorney actually argued that he trained quote 0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:31.120 unquote himself to kill by playing Halo on Xbox. Uh. 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:34.320 He was even quoted as saying he's trained and desensitized 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:37.560 with video games to shoot human forms over and over. 0:20:38.840 --> 0:20:44.480 In actuality, Lee Malvo trained by shooting paper plates with 0:20:44.680 --> 0:20:48.399 human faces drawn on them with real guns. Bye, what's 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:51.480 his face? Who's the guy? I can't remember his name? 0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:56.600 But yeah, yeah, And in Halo, you shoot this weird 0:20:56.840 --> 0:21:02.040 looking space gun at like giant bug. So this was 0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:04.119 even brought up in a court of law that like Halo, 0:21:04.200 --> 0:21:07.400 led him to be a DC sniper, So it's definitely 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:10.639 a lot of sensationalism going on. Um. And another thing 0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:15.760 they point out is that, ah, video game popularity and 0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:19.879 youth violence has been going in the opposite direction statistically. 0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:23.720 Since um it reached a peak, violent juvenile crime reached 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:28.320 a peak in has been in decline ever since. Between 0:21:28.400 --> 0:21:32.320 ninety four and two thousand one, arrest for murder, forcible rape, robbery, 0:21:32.320 --> 0:21:36.760 and aggravated assault fell fort and had the lowest juvenile 0:21:36.840 --> 0:21:42.880 arrest rate for violent crimes since the early eighties. So ah, 0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:45.119 you know, that seems to fly in the face of 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:47.800 the research at least. And the reason also people keep 0:21:47.800 --> 0:21:50.160 picking on kids is not just because there's school shooters, 0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:53.720 but the one of one of the assumptions that people's 0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:58.000 trying to prove that yes, um, violent video games caused 0:21:58.040 --> 0:22:00.760 violence is that if you are a child, you still 0:22:00.760 --> 0:22:04.320 have a developing brain, so you're gonna be more susceptible 0:22:04.359 --> 0:22:08.080 of that kind of classical conditioning that a violent video 0:22:08.119 --> 0:22:12.080 game provides. The thing is is like, as of I 0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:16.119 think two thousand and eleven, a survey of kids played 0:22:16.240 --> 0:22:19.680 video games, the average is about nine hours a week 0:22:20.520 --> 0:22:23.879 and then a great many of those video games are violent. 0:22:25.119 --> 0:22:28.240 So the numbers like that, it makes you wonder why 0:22:28.240 --> 0:22:31.440 there aren't more school shooters. Why, to make this point 0:22:31.440 --> 0:22:33.720 in this book, not a lot more common. Yeah, why 0:22:33.800 --> 0:22:36.760 isn't the world like millions of people play these games. 0:22:36.760 --> 0:22:40.600 Why isn't it just violent, chaotic world out there? All this? 0:22:40.760 --> 0:22:43.080 I might say this so again though, we should, we 0:22:43.080 --> 0:22:44.800 should kind of bring it back a little bit, like 0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:47.760 it's the school shooters are just like the most sensational 0:22:48.560 --> 0:22:52.119 um thing to point to. They're also worried that like 0:22:52.320 --> 0:22:57.080 kids are like pump punching each other more or you know, um, 0:22:57.280 --> 0:22:59.879 knifeing each other more. And the idea behind that is 0:23:00.960 --> 0:23:06.560 there's this thing called script theory, where um we it's 0:23:06.640 --> 0:23:09.159 it's an extension of this thing called affect theory. Right, 0:23:09.160 --> 0:23:12.200 We're basically like something happens to us, we have uh, 0:23:12.240 --> 0:23:16.320 an emotional reaction to something, and it triggers a response, 0:23:16.359 --> 0:23:20.320 a prescribed response, and it's it's fairly specific to the 0:23:20.400 --> 0:23:23.959 human being, but it's also kind of predictable well over time. 0:23:24.080 --> 0:23:26.119 Because remember, the brain is very lazy and likes to 0:23:26.200 --> 0:23:28.919 chunk things and do things as efficiently as possible. The 0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:33.919 same thing happens, Um, whenever we we come across the 0:23:34.040 --> 0:23:39.960 same emotional stimulus, right where we build a script. Okay, 0:23:40.400 --> 0:23:43.919 so if somebody comes up to us and we have 0:23:44.040 --> 0:23:47.200 been trained to or we've produced a script through violent 0:23:47.280 --> 0:23:50.320 video games where if somebody's coming at us, we have 0:23:50.359 --> 0:23:53.680 to shoot it. The idea behind script, they very crudely 0:23:53.720 --> 0:23:58.160 put is that, um, we would use violence, it would 0:23:58.160 --> 0:24:03.119 trigger a violent reaction because we are script for dealing 0:24:03.160 --> 0:24:07.280