1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grassoe from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: President Trump wants to return to the Oval office a 3 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: little over twenty four hours after being released from a 4 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:18,080 Speaker 1: three day hospital stay for the treatment of COVID nineteen. 5 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 1: That's according to Bloomberg sources. In the meantime, more coronavirus 6 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: infections emerged in the White House, while it appears to 7 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: be ignoring rigorous contact tracing around its own outbreak. Trump's 8 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: physician Sean Conley, issued a brief memorandum today saying that 9 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: the President reports no symptoms of the disease and his 10 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:41,480 Speaker 1: vital signs are stable. But there are questions about Dr 11 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: Conley's statements because of his upbeat assessments of the President's 12 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: health and his refusal to answer several major questions, including 13 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: when the president's last negative COVID test was. In fact, 14 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: calmly acknowledged on Sunday that he had made misleading statements 15 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: the day before about whether Trump was ever administered supplemental oxygen. 16 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 1: My guest is health care attorney Harry Nelson, managing partner 17 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: of Nelson Hardeman. Harry explained why Trump's doctor can't disclose 18 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: his medical information without Trump's consent. So federal law HIPPA, 19 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: the Health and Information Portability and Accountability Act, prohibits physicians 20 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: and other healthcare providers hospitals from sharing patients protected health 21 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 1: information without the patient's consent. What so, technically the doctor 22 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: correctly needed uh President Trump consent in order to share 23 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: his information. What made the whole thing strange is that, obviously, 24 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 1: in a situation where the whole country, in the whole 25 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 1: world is concerned about what the state of the president is, 26 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 1: the President had authorized him to talk about his health, 27 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: but he was selectively picking and choosing areas that he 28 00:01:55,320 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: didn't want to talk about. Did the doctor mistakes law 29 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 1: or misrepresented when he said there are HIPPA rules and 30 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: regulations that restrict me in sharing certain things for his 31 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: safety and his own health and reasons. So Dr Conley 32 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: was playing fast and loose with what HIPPA actually provides. 33 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:21,920 Speaker 1: HIPPA gives every patient the right to decide whether or 34 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: not a doctor can share their information. In the middle 35 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: of the pandemic, there's a lot of pressure on patients 36 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:32,919 Speaker 1: to authorize their providers to share health information with people needs. Clearly, 37 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: in this situation, President Trump had authorized Dr Conley to 38 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:41,359 Speaker 1: talk about his health information. So he had essentially waived 39 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 1: his HIPPA rights and consented to the disclosure. So for 40 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: Dr Conley then to pretend that somehow HIPPA was the 41 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: limitation upon him was misleading. Really, if any limitation was 42 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: upon him, it was the President saying you can share 43 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 1: these facts, but not the these other facts. That's legal 44 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 1: under hip. But a patient can say you can say this, 45 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: but don't tell them about that. It's unusual, it is 46 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 1: technically it's true that the patient's private, The patient's health 47 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: information is private, and it's a patient decision decision about 48 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:19,959 Speaker 1: what kind of information they want to release. H It 49 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:25,119 Speaker 1: just it seems that Dr Conley was comfortable sharing favorable 50 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 1: information but had had some reservations about sharing particular details. 51 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 1: So it's possible that that President Trump had instructed him 52 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: not too. It's also possible that that Dr Conley was 53 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: just trying to stay on message and not wanting to 54 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: go beyond the script that had been given to him. 55 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: So you have a public concerned on several levels, not 56 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: only the COVID, but you have a president who has 57 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: demonstrated slurred speech, trouble lifting a bottle, some you know, 58 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: repetitive speech patterns, So there's really no way for the 59 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: pub like to know what's behind those various problems. It's interesting, 60 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: you know, it's technically again, patients technically control their own 61 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: health information. There are exceptions, uh, when it's for the 62 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: public health. There is not a national security or kind 63 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:21,159 Speaker 1: of any kind of political override on HIPPA. So it's 64 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 1: true that it really is a decision by the president 65 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 1: and by his administration how much to share in these situations. 66 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 1: But obviously there's a cost to not sharing information, which 67 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 1: has been leading all the speculation and worry about what 68 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: the president's health really is. You said that as a 69 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: public health exception here, knowing the timeline of Trump's infection 70 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: would help with contact tracing, but his doctors and Trump 71 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: are not revealing when his last negative chest was. So 72 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:57,720 Speaker 1: is that a public health concern that might be an 73 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 1: exception to hippa? The resolutely. That's probably the most troubling 74 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: aspect of this from a legal standpoint is the way 75 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 1: that HIPPA is constructed. There are the public health authorities 76 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: local and state and federal have the right to demand 77 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: certain health information and to have closures so they can 78 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: decide what to do with it. So for the administration 79 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: to be making and for the president to be making 80 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: unilateral choices about public health issues that affect other people 81 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: is concerning and is inconsistent with HIPPA UH. And I 82 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: my understanding is that the Center for Disease Control actually 83 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 1: stepped in and offered to take on some of that 84 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: public health function by doing contracts contact racing of people 85 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 1: who are at some of the events and have been declined, 86 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:44,599 Speaker 1: which is both unfortunate and contrary to the the spirit 87 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:48,679 Speaker 1: of There are certain states I believe that if someone 88 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 1: exposes another person to HIV, they can be prosecuted. So 89 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:59,559 Speaker 1: what about someone exposing people to COVID's liberally not wearing 90 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: face maths or deliberately going into an event where there 91 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: are lots of people knowing you have COVID? I mean, 92 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: is there any possibility that for an average citizen that 93 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: could be something they could be prosecuted for or suit over. 94 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: So there's been a lot of talk about this and 95 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: not a lot of action. Yet, there's been a lot 96 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:21,239 Speaker 1: of a lot of seculation that we're going to start 97 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:27,359 Speaker 1: to see lawsuits UH and potentially criminal liability for people 98 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: who are reckless uh and who expose others to disease. 99 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 1: Those laws are certainly in place in every state for 100 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: people to be held responsible either financially in a civil 101 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 1: case if somebody gets sick and blame somebody else for 102 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: uh for exposing them to to a disease, for being 103 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: negligent or reckless and uh and likewise for the authorities 104 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: to pursue it and prosecuted criminally. So I think I 105 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: think those cases are coming and it's um, it's a 106 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: little bizarre to have the President United States be one 107 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: of the most talked about possible test case for people 108 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: who feel that he behaved recklessly in emposing them. What 109 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: are the penalties for doctors who violate HIPPA and give 110 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: out information about their patients? So, one of the things 111 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: that's really important understand about HIPPA is that it's only 112 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: enforced by the sederal government, by the Department of Health 113 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: and Human Services. But there are very severe financial penalties 114 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: up into depending on the number of people affected, into 115 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 1: the hundreds of thousands of dollars, but as much as 116 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: ten thousand dollars for violation. So um, So for doctors, 117 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: you know, the risk of hip hop penalty or HIPPO 118 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: violation come from have to come from the federal government, 119 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: but it can be quite severe, and we've seen a 120 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: number of a few medical practices and a number of 121 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: hospitals pay multimillion dollar find for not being careful with 122 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: people's privacy. Could doctors potentially lose their licenses? No, there's no. 123 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: There's no provision within HIPPA to allow for a doctor 124 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: to UH to lose his his or her license. The 125 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: only way that the doctor could actually lose their license 126 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: would be if a state medical board, which is the 127 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: in every state police is UH and regulates the licenses 128 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: of doctors, decided that a doctor had behaved so unprofessionally 129 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: that that the that the disclosure of patient information um 130 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: merited a disciplinary action. It's that's that would be separate 131 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: from HIPPA. It's been it's we have we have some 132 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: pretty extreme cases where doctors have gotten into privacy violations 133 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 1: that have led to UH, you know, dissensions and revocation. 134 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: I don't know about about outright loss of licensure just 135 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 1: for a disclosure, but in the context of of other 136 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: activity where where a doctor misused information in their possession 137 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: and and behaved unprofessionally. Um, that issue comes up every 138 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 1: once in a while. There are nurses and orderlies in 139 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: the hospital who are seeing what's happening. Are they bound 140 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: by HIPPA or could they reveal some of the details 141 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: of the president's care, like, oh, he's on oxygen. So 142 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: that's a great question. So the entire workforce of a 143 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 1: hospital is found by HIPPO. Technically, the hospital in this 144 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: case is that the hip hop covered entity, but its 145 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: entire workforce, including all the staff, all the order leaves, 146 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,079 Speaker 1: all the nurses, are responsible to HIPPA, and the hospital 147 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 1: has rules to ensure that that everybody wills to read 148 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 1: I following the policies to ensure HIPPA privacy. And what 149 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: will happen if any of those nurses or or or 150 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: staff go to uh C TMZ or US weekly, which 151 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: has happened in other celebrity cases. The hospital will be 152 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,959 Speaker 1: at risk of millions of dollars of penalties under federal 153 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: and state law, and generally those people will will lose 154 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:54,319 Speaker 1: their jobs pretty quickly. Generally, candidates for the presidency don't 155 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 1: release their medical records. They release letters from doctors. Usually 156 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: those letters are glowing. I mean President Trump his first 157 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: letter from a doctor. The doctor has come out now 158 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: and said that he dictated the letter to him. So 159 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: are doctors liable in any respect for misrepresenting a patient's health. 160 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 1: That's a really interesting question. I haven't seen a doctor 161 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:21,199 Speaker 1: held responsible for that, but it's certainly imaginable that a doctor, 162 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 1: you know, when a doctor uses the privilege of his 163 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: or her license to make representations and make those representations 164 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:31,719 Speaker 1: about the state of somebody's health that's required for them 165 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,680 Speaker 1: to fulfill a particular duty, it's certainly imaginable that a 166 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: doctor could be subject to professional discipline or to perjury 167 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: for making false statements. UM. And it's it's interesting to 168 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 1: watch these issues play out because UM, clearly there this 169 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 1: is UH. The pandemic has made this issue worse. But 170 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: to be honest with you, this issue has been coming 171 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:55,319 Speaker 1: up more and more in healthcare. UH, the issues around 172 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 1: neurocognitive decline and what people's true state is, over age 173 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: being and over other issues. Is really is definitely a 174 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: matter of public concern and it's something that doctors should 175 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: be taken seriously when they're making these statements. There is 176 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: no law saying the president has to disclose his medical records, 177 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 1: just as there's no law saying the president has to 178 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 1: disclose his tax returns. But should there be a lot 179 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 1: I think there should be. I think there is a 180 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 1: public right to know the health and UH and to 181 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: be informed of there's important issues that are affecting the 182 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 1: health and the ability to perform a function of people 183 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 1: in in highly sensitive roles. I think we expect that 184 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: in every other part of our society. We don't. We 185 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: don't get behind um, you know, we don't get into 186 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 1: a plane without being worried about the state of the pilot. 187 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 1: We don't go under the knife and surgery without worrying about, uh, 188 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 1: you know, the state of the surgeon. We sect the 189 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 1: people who regulate those industries to be policing that. And 190 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 1: here too, the public has a right to know and 191 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: it right to be protected from a from somebody in 192 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 1: the leadership position nationally having a disability. I don't follow 193 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: sports very closely, but every once in a while you 194 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 1: hear a league saying, oh, this player has tested positive 195 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: for COVID. Are they authorized by the players to say that? 196 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: Is it something in the contract? Yes? So what's happening 197 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 1: is the league in their contract? Uh, give team the 198 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: players authorized in their contracts the league and the teams 199 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: to disclose their information. It's a very important part of 200 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: of the NFL and of every league to be able 201 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: to announce which players are on the disabled list or 202 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 1: or or not aren't going to play on a particular game, 203 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: and so the players authorize that information up front. So 204 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: that's that's absolutely part of sports league. One of the 205 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:52,959 Speaker 1: big interesting trends that we're seeing with COVID is many 206 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: employers and many large companies are now requiring employees as 207 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:00,559 Speaker 1: a condition of coming back to work, to not only 208 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,080 Speaker 1: to be tested, but to to share the information if 209 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: they are if they do test positive, with their coworkers 210 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 1: or with managers, so that everybody can protect themselves from 211 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:12,319 Speaker 1: and know if they had a potential exposure. Thanks so 212 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,559 Speaker 1: much for being on the Bloomberg Law Show, Harry. That's 213 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: Harry Nelson, managing partner of Nelson Hardeman. Lower courts are 214 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: continuing to deal with lawsuits over everything from the deadlines 215 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: for accepting mail in ballots to witness signature requirements. The 216 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,559 Speaker 1: Democrats have been suing for months to ease rules for 217 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: mail in ballots given the coronavirus threat, while Republicans have 218 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: been intervening or suing themselves raising claims of potential voter fraud. 219 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: Joining me is Eric Larson, Bloomberg Legal Reporter. Is there 220 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 1: any way of telling, like right now, who's won more lawsuits? 221 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 1: It's a it's a tough call because there have been 222 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: so many preliminary decisions that are being appealed. UM. But 223 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 1: broadly speaking, if you're looking at which side it has 224 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: rulings in their favor, and some of these key swing states, 225 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 1: the Democrats seem to be coming out ahead in terms 226 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: of doing to make it easier for folks to vote 227 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 1: by mail um during the pandemic and to make sure 228 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 1: that their ballots get counted in its time like fashion 229 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:17,359 Speaker 1: given some of these mail delivery delays that we're expecting 230 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: um to. The Republicans, of course, are appealing a lot 231 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: of these decisions UM and it is unclear what will 232 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: happen with those, But for right now, the way that 233 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: seeing stand, the Democrats do seem to be coming out ahead. 234 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: So what are the basic charges or if you want 235 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: to say, the most popular charges that Republicans make as 236 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: to why a court should reject accommodations being made for 237 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: COVID nineteen and voting. Well, the more technical reason is 238 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: that the Republicans here, whether it's the state or national Republicans, 239 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: and sometimes the Trump campaign claimed that these changes were 240 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: made improperly, that for example, the state legislature didn't have 241 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 1: the authority to make the changes in the time that 242 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: they made UM or this pe terry of state for 243 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: a state which often is the top election of official 244 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: in the state, UH needed the approval of a legislature 245 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: to do it. The measures that they took um in 246 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: order to ease voting UM. But also, you know, one 247 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: common theme in all of these allegations from the Trump 248 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: campaign of the RNC is allegations of suspected widespread voter fraud. 249 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 1: That's really, you know, echoing what the President himself has 250 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 1: been saying for months now that this is expected surgeon 251 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: mail and voting is going to lead to a basically 252 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: a rigged election, that the Democrats are actually trying to 253 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: steal the election by making it easier for people to 254 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: vote by mail. You see that theme throughout a lot 255 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 1: of these filings in all of these states. Regardless of 256 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: what the specific claims, maybe whether they're constitutional or not, 257 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: they have this theme of allegations of fraud. We've heard 258 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 1: President Trump complain about mail in ballots, and one of 259 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 1: his claims is that when a state automatically sends out 260 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: mail in ballots to all registered voters, it will definitely 261 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: lead to fraud. So I know there was a case 262 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: in Montana. What have the judges decide in those kinds 263 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 1: of cases. Yeah, the Trump campaign has has sued over 264 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: state plans to mail ballots to all registered voters. That 265 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: also they've stued over plans to mail applications for mail 266 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 1: and ballots to all voters. But in the cases where 267 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: they've stued over the plan to mail ballots, Um, they 268 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: seem to be coming up short here because when they're good, 269 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: when they're going to court and making these arguments to 270 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: these judges, Um, they haven't been able to provide evidence 271 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: that automatically sending ballots to registered voters is going to 272 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 1: lead to fraud. It just sort of, I guess, is 273 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: that simple. In the case of Montana that you mentioned, 274 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: a federal judge just last week throughout the Trump campaign's 275 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: lawsuit over that state's plan to send ballots to all 276 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: voters and said that allegations of fraud in that case, 277 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: specifically in Montana, were a quote fiction. So the judge 278 00:16:55,400 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: really uh completely rejected that argument, And even during the 279 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 1: hearing in that case before the judge issued his decision, 280 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: that Trump campaign's own lawyer conceded on their questioning by 281 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:10,640 Speaker 1: the judge that they hadn't been able to produce any 282 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: evidence of fraud in Montana with mail in ballots, even 283 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 1: though mail in ballots has been used in that state 284 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: extensively for twenty years, including during the primary that they 285 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:22,640 Speaker 1: had earlier this year when it was all done by mail, 286 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 1: they couldn't produce any evidence of fraud, and the judge 287 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: tossed the case out. What about Nevada, same story there, 288 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 1: and of course that's more of a swing state. The 289 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 1: pretty crucial in Montana. The issue, by the way, was 290 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,439 Speaker 1: that there is a very tight race for the U. S. 291 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:40,439 Speaker 1: Senate that could help flip control of the Senate to 292 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: the Democrats potentially, So that's why there was a big 293 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: focus on Montana. In Nevada, it's an important swing state, 294 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,400 Speaker 1: they were also planning to spend ballots to all voters. 295 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 1: The Trump campaign suit over that plan and that was 296 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: also thrown out, and that was thrown out by a 297 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: judge appointed by George W. Bush Um in that case, 298 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: and he also said, sorry, no fraud here. Case dismissed. 299 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: Speaking of swing states, there have been several lawsuits in Pennsylvania, 300 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: I know, against the drop boxes. Tell us about those lawsuits. Yeah, 301 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: there's there's a lot going on there. The RNC in 302 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 1: the Trump campaign had sued over plans to expand the 303 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 1: use of valid drop boxes, to extend the deadline for 304 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: counting ballot and to ease the signature matching requirements, noting 305 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 1: that a lot of people are going to be mailing 306 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: ballots for the first time and a lot of times 307 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,439 Speaker 1: the signatures don't quite match or they're missing, and they 308 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: want to give both a chance to fix that error 309 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,879 Speaker 1: before descrowing the ballot out. There's also lawsuits over the 310 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 1: use of poll watchers at the polls in Pennsylvania, and 311 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:47,400 Speaker 1: at first the set was split between state federal court, 312 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: and the federal judge put the case on hold and said, 313 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: let the state court rule on this first, let us 314 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 1: know if the Pennsylvania's changes for the election and fit 315 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: with state law. And the Pennsylvania Supreme Court ruled that 316 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: was okay, that was ballots and the federal court restarted 317 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: that case, and right now the Trump campaign in the 318 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: r MC and the Pennsylvania election officials who are Democrats, 319 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 1: have filed and competing motions to summary judgment to win 320 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: that case without a trial. That was just over the weekend. 321 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: There's a Pennsylvania case that's pending before the Supreme Court 322 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:22,679 Speaker 1: and the justices haven't decided whether to take it or not. 323 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: What is that about. Right In that case, the top 324 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 1: court in Pennsylvania and state courts, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court 325 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 1: sided with Pennsylvania election officials and their plan to allow 326 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: ballots to be accepted up to three days after election day. 327 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:39,880 Speaker 1: The Republicans are trying to get that overturned. They want 328 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 1: to go back to the original rule that has been 329 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: in place, which is that the deadline is the evening 330 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 1: of election day. And obviously the Democrats want as many 331 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 1: ballots to get counted in the state, especially given some 332 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: of the delays and mail delivery. They expect that with 333 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:58,119 Speaker 1: the surge of ballots they could be flooding in for 334 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:00,439 Speaker 1: days after election day, and then want to make sure 335 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: let's get counted. There's a concept called ballot harvesting, which 336 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: sounds awful. Explain what that is and why the Republicans 337 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 1: seem to be winning in that area. You know that 338 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: that is Uh, it's a good question because in a 339 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 1: lot of states, UM, they have rules that limit or 340 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 1: restrict completely so called ballot harvesting, which is really just 341 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 1: where groups UM will go around and collect the absentee 342 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: ballots of various voters and then deliver them to election 343 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 1: officials when there are rules in place against this practice. 344 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 1: It is in the name of voter fraud, preventing voter fraud, 345 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,160 Speaker 1: and notwithstanding the fact that the GOP and the Trump 346 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: campaign have not been able to produce evidence of rampants 347 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: fraud from mail in voting in general. UM, A lot 348 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:49,679 Speaker 1: of course that said, we're going to go ahead and 349 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: keep this particular rule in place because it's a good 350 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: way to prevent voter fraud and that that's a valid 351 00:20:55,840 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: prevention effort. So you mentioned the deadline for accept ballots 352 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:04,959 Speaker 1: and states have different rules. Is there one preferred method 353 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: that the courts seem to be accepted. They do have 354 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 1: to be postmarked by election day. But the question this 355 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,919 Speaker 1: time around, given the expected flood of mail and ballots 356 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: across the country, one of the real questions is what 357 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: about the ballots that are lacking postmarks? And that's going 358 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: to be a real concern about whether or not ballots 359 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 1: should be counted if they arrive within the extended deadline 360 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: but don't have proof that they were mailed by election day. 361 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 1: Democrats are arguing that they should be assumed to have 362 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: been mailed by election day as long as they're arriving 363 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 1: within that deadline, that that all these thousands of ballots 364 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: are going to be counted, that they should go ahead 365 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: and count those ballots as well. Um and the Republicans 366 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 1: are against that as well, if they argue that if 367 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,159 Speaker 1: it doesn't have a clear postmark proving that it was 368 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: mailed by election day, that even if it arrives within 369 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: that extended window, it should be tossed out. There's also 370 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 1: requirement that becomes harder to get in this day of 371 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: COVID for witness signature to your ballot. Do a lot 372 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,160 Speaker 1: of states have that requirement and how is that faring? 373 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: They do? And democratic groups and the national and state 374 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: democrats have been suing states that have these restrictions in 375 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: place under normal years, saying that during the pandemic, this 376 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,919 Speaker 1: requirement for a witness signature should be lifted UH, and 377 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,159 Speaker 1: the Democrats have prevailed in a lot of states on 378 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: this argument. Judges have agreed that yet, when we're dealing 379 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 1: with a highly contagious virus, UH, the requiring voters to 380 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 1: essentially go up to a neighbor or a family or 381 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 1: friend or whoever and ask one or two people depending 382 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: on the state too to sign their ballot, that it's 383 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,919 Speaker 1: just too much of a risk. And they also present 384 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:55,919 Speaker 1: arguments and evidence that, uh, this witness requirement doesn't necessarily 385 00:22:55,960 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 1: prevent fraud anyway, that there's not really any cases, if 386 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 1: anywhere a witness signature exposed a fraudulent vote. So they 387 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 1: just argue it's another wall being put up, another effort 388 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: to restrict the vote, especially during a pandemic. And in 389 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: previous years, these witness requirements haven't really been focused on 390 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 1: a lot in court because mail in ballots simply weren't 391 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: used as much. But obviously this time around they're really 392 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:26,400 Speaker 1: focusing on this and they want to make it as 393 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 1: easy as possible for people to past ballots without having 394 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: to put their health at risk. In past elections, have 395 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,880 Speaker 1: states been allowing people to correct errors in their mail 396 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 1: in ballots. Yes, it's called a cure period, and a 397 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 1: lot of states do allow that, UM, and they want 398 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: to focus of some of these lawsuits is to extend 399 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 1: the deadline for allowing people to cure those There's the 400 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: issues again because of the expected service and a lot 401 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 1: of people voting in by mail for the first time, 402 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: there's arguments that people will make an honest mistake and 403 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: forget to sign, or they their signature doesn't quite look 404 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 1: right because it's changed from what's on file, or for 405 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: whatever reason, they didn't sign it the way they normally do. 406 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: And you know, hundreds of thousands of ballots get rejected 407 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 1: even during primaries and during a general elections with in 408 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: the normal years. So when we're talking about a surge 409 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: in November, there could be a surgeon ballots thrown off 410 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,120 Speaker 1: for this reason as well. And Democrats again are saying 411 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 1: give people more time to correct these theirs. Republicans have 412 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: the opposite view. You mean, there was so much litigation 413 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: over North Carolina and what happened there. What's the situation there? 414 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,160 Speaker 1: There is litigation in North Carolina over some of these 415 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: issues that we've been discussing here. UM. They have a 416 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: bit of a unique situation there because the courts have 417 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: pointed out UM in these recent rulings, they have a 418 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: history just back from back in two thousand eighteen when 419 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: there was a big scandal in North Carolina over mail 420 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: and ballots that were uh illegal harvested and by a 421 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 1: Republican political operative who was trying to get more ballots 422 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,679 Speaker 1: for Republicans and illegally and end the time to redo 423 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:16,119 Speaker 1: their election there. And it's caused a big scandal. Like 424 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: I said, so the judges are wary of that, and 425 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,160 Speaker 1: the Democrats are having a harder time getting their arguments 426 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 1: to stick there as a result. Can you tell us 427 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 1: a little bit about the guy who's heading the Democratic 428 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: operations so to speak with all these lawsuits. Tell us 429 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: a little bit about him. Yeah, his name is Mark Elias. 430 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 1: He is an election lawyer with Perfect Cooley and dc UM. 431 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,640 Speaker 1: He is running a huge team of lawyers across the country. 432 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,120 Speaker 1: They've been filing a dozens of lawsuits, some of the big, 433 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: high profile cases that we've been discussing where the Democrats 434 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 1: have had some some big victories UM in court, as 435 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,680 Speaker 1: well as settlements with states where they eased their rules. UM. 436 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 1: This has been his his brain child, and he was 437 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 1: the lawyer for Hillary Clinton's campaign. He represents now UM, 438 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: the d n C and the State National UM Democrats 439 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,680 Speaker 1: and various different lawsuits as well as UM. More or 440 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: less leaning nonprofit organizations are sometimes behind these cases UM. 441 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,199 Speaker 1: And you know there's dozens of I mean, he his effort, 442 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: he calls the four pillars of UH of mail and 443 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 1: voting during the pandemic, that he wants each state that 444 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 1: they're targeting to have set in plate rules for making 445 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,879 Speaker 1: it easier about like witness, getting rid of witness signature requirements, 446 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,439 Speaker 1: extending deadlines and things like that. And he's he's been 447 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:46,360 Speaker 1: pretty successful. Thanks Eric, that's Bloomberg Legal reporter Eric Larson. 448 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 1: I'm June Grosso. Thanks so much for listening, and please 449 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: tune into the Bloomberg Law Show every week now It 450 00:26:52,119 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 1: ten pm Eastern on Bloomberg Radio. The intent of kindred 451 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: of content, intent of end of the fam