1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Gradios How Stuff Works. Hello, welcome 5 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: back to the show. My name is Matt, my name 6 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: is Nol. They called me Ben. We are joined as 7 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: always with our super producer Paul, Mission controlled dec and 8 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: most importantly, you are you. You are here and that 9 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:40,639 Speaker 1: makes this stuff they don't want you to know. Today 10 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: we're we We've got to welcome you back. Nol. You've 11 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: been on some trips recently. You have not been tripping necessarily, 12 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 1: I don't. I just said necessarily necessarily means I'm not 13 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: saying I was in San Francisco for for a little while. 14 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: I would have been a good opportunity to do that, 15 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: but it did not cross my path. And today's episode, 16 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: for anyone who didn't bother to read the title, you 17 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: were so excited you just jumped in. Today's episode is 18 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: about tripping. It's about UH psychedelics, hallucinogens one in particular, 19 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: and UH. In the past, we've talked a little more 20 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: broadly about hallucinogens and psychedelics. In our episodes, avid listeners 21 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:27,759 Speaker 1: would remember did hallucinogens create religion? Or can hallucinogens cure addiction? 22 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: But today we're drilling down into one specific substance, and 23 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:35,040 Speaker 1: we've brought someone along with us to help. That's right, 24 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: we are not uh diving into this rabbit hole alone. 25 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: Please welcome to the show our good friend, co host 26 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, co host of Invention, 27 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: Mr Robert Lamb. Hey, thanks for having me. We're very 28 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: excited that you're here. Robert. We we very much are 29 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: looking to you as an expert because you you not 30 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: long ago come leaded a I believe, five part series 31 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: on this very substance on Stuff to Blow Your Mind. Yeah, 32 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: me and my my co host Joe McCormick, we did 33 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:13,079 Speaker 1: five part look at psilocybin, uh, psychedelics in general, but 34 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: with a very much of a focus on psilocybin. It's 35 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: an interesting time for that, especially because I think the 36 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:20,799 Speaker 1: tide is sort of turning in terms of not only 37 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: public opinion, but even just the laws surrounding it is 38 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: getting loosened up in a lot of places, and there's 39 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 1: legitimate research being done using psilocybin to treat things like 40 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: depression or anxiety or what have you. Yeah, I think 41 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 1: the research area is is perhaps the most exciting uh 42 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 1: area area to look at, because there was a lot 43 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:40,920 Speaker 1: of progress made, uh, you know, back in the fifties 44 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: and sixties and uh, and then of course things died 45 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: down almost you know, to a trickle to a crawl 46 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: for decades. And now we're living in a in a 47 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: true renaissance of psychedelic research. Uh, you know, where researchers 48 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 1: have picked up where others left off and are you know, 49 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: continuing to to really explore the healing potential of these substances. 50 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: And a lot of this has to do with the 51 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: social moraise, right, the way substances and certain drugs have 52 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 1: been viewed over the course of history. Right. But before 53 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: we get too deep into this, let's talk about what 54 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: we're talking about. What is psilocybin? Okay, Well, psilocybin, for starters, 55 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: is a psychedelic um and you know, the term itself 56 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: is from the Greek words for soul or mind and manifesting. 57 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 1: But in particular, psilocybin is a trip to mind psychedelic 58 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: It naturally occurs in some two hundred different varieties of mushroom, 59 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: and the primary compounds responsible for its psychedelic effects are 60 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: psilocybin and psilocin, which ultimately amount to pretty much the 61 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: same thing. Since psilocybin breaks down into pilicon inside the body. 62 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: Uh and you know, compared to almost you know, all 63 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: other known drugs, psilocybin has an exceptionally low potential for 64 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: abuse and uh, exceptionally few known physiological risks. Right right. 65 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: It turns out that men any of the urban legends 66 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: people have heard about, people about folks taking magic mushrooms 67 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 1: and then going completely insane for the rest of their 68 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: lives are just that urban legends. There also, I believe, 69 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: no proven fatalities due to this substance. Well, it's I 70 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 1: guess two things are worth worth pointing out. Like for starters, um, 71 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:25,720 Speaker 1: a certain segment of the population can't experience psychological ramifications. 72 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 1: So people with a predisposition for say, schizophrenia, um and 73 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,919 Speaker 1: uh and that's that's a something that everyone should always 74 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: keep in mind. On the other hand, I mean, they 75 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 1: are powerful substances. They're not you know, it's not bubblegum. Uh. 76 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: Set and setting are extremely important the mental state that 77 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: that one has going into using these substances is extremely important, 78 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: and so there therefore it's you know, it's very possible 79 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: for especially as you know, a young person who hasn't 80 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 1: put a lot of thought into what is going to happen, 81 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: it's very possible for them to have a a challenging time. 82 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: I guess the day of clarifying here is while all 83 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 1: of that is true, there has also been this persistent 84 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: this this persistent public image of psilocybin or hallucinogens in 85 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 1: general as something that someone would ingest one at one 86 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 1: point in their lives and then for the rest of 87 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: the natural span of their of their life they would 88 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 1: be functionally insane or unwell or unable to uh perform 89 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 1: as a as a regular member of society. And I 90 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 1: think that's fake. That's propaganda, right, that's negative PR in 91 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 1: the War on drugs, And speaking of PR, just really quickly, 92 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: we're not as we do with any ideas we discussed, 93 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 1: not saying you should believe this or this is something 94 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 1: you should go out and do, or saying you should 95 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: go out and micro dose and take psilocybin today it'll 96 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: improve your life. We're just going through some of the 97 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,480 Speaker 1: effects some of the history and some of the current 98 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 1: research and the news behind it. And speaking of that, 99 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: there was a study that just came out from Global 100 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 1: Drug Survey, to your point, band that pulled close to 101 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: a hundred and twenty thousand people in fifty different countries 102 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: about their drug and alcohol consumption, and uh, twelve thousand 103 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: people in that survey said they did mushrooms in twenty sixteen, 104 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: and only point two percent of them said they needed 105 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: emergency medical care afterward, as opposed to that was five 106 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: or six times lower than LSD, cocaine, m D m 107 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: A and alcohol, and three times lower than than marijuana. So, 108 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: and there's also something to be said here about combination 109 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: of substances when when you do those there's always a 110 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:41,799 Speaker 1: danger there. Um, someone could died being in an unsafe setting, 111 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 1: uh or a situation. Right, Yes, they caused them to 112 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:48,840 Speaker 1: behave uh erratically. Oh. Absolutely. And And just to kind 113 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: of harp one last time on this, this point that 114 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 1: both that everybody's kind of making here. The there is 115 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: a small segment of the population that should never likely 116 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: should never try so let ivan, but for the overwhelming majority, 117 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: it is not something that's going to cause deliterious effects right, Yeah, 118 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: one more statistic here. It looks like about eight per 119 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: cent of the US population people counting people over twenty 120 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: six eight percent of people over twenty six years old 121 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: have at least self reported using some sort of hallucinogen. 122 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: Is that number higher? And actuality maybe, but not that much. 123 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: So so again, this uh, this war on drugs mentality 124 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: doesn't really track. It is not as if one out 125 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: of three people on the street are tripping their balls 126 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: off or something, you know what I mean. And it's 127 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: and to Robert's point, it's not something well, historically US 128 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: psychedelics played a more formal role in human experience, or 129 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: a more spiritual role, rather than a recreational role. And 130 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: that's I think in terms of the tide turning, it's 131 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: starting to be seen more like that instead of just 132 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: some thing that you pop for jollys at a concert 133 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: or something like that. You know, this, this is something 134 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: that fastening me about your discussion on stuff to blow 135 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 1: your mind, Robert. When we get to the nuts and 136 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: bolts of psilocybin specifically, how much do we know about 137 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: how it actually works in the human brain. Yeah, well, 138 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: we we still don't know for sure the exact neurochemical mechanism. 139 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: But classic psychedelics appear to bind to a specific subclass 140 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: of serotonin receptor, the seras serotonin two A receptor, and 141 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: these receptors are found concentrated in the human cortex, which 142 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 1: is the outer layer of the cerebellum, which is associated 143 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 1: with a lot of the hot, lot of higher brain functions, 144 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: you know, sensation, speech, of course, language, voluntary action. Uh. 145 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: You know, So when you take a psychedelic like LSD 146 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: or psilocybin mushrooms, the active ingredient, the active compounds make 147 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: their way into the brain and a sort of act 148 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: as act as serotonin binding to these receptors. Um. But yeah, 149 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: there there are a lot of a lot of questions 150 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 1: to still remain of, you know, about exactly how it works. 151 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: So a lot of a lot of questions remain exactly 152 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 1: and regarding how serotonin really works in our minds. Well, 153 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 1: there are a lot of stories that are a little 154 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: more anecdotal about or I guess, let's say, tales of 155 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 1: what psilocybin actually is and how it functions within the 156 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: body outside of the medical research, right about it being 157 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: conscious in some way. I mean, they are all kinds 158 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:35,839 Speaker 1: of things we can get into it later. And here, 159 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 1: I mean there are stories that you will find across 160 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: the internet and perhaps here from acquaintances of yours um 161 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 1: that go and go a little deeper into the strangeness. 162 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: But let's imagine that there was like a big pharma 163 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: type commercial for psilocybin, and let's let's think about what 164 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: would be rattled off at the end, the things that 165 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: could be caused, things like nazis, diary and muscle relaxation. 166 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: We just in twitches, dawning, drowsing, dis is, lightheadedness and 167 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: lack of coordination, people dilation, tearing, dry mouth and facial flushing, 168 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:07,319 Speaker 1: increased heart rate, blood pressure and body temperatures, wedding followed 169 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 1: by shells and shivering, none of the tongue, lips or mouth, 170 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 1: feeling of physical heaviness or lightness, and feeling of floating. Yeah. 171 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:14,959 Speaker 1: And I was just reading the other day about how 172 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 1: how DARPA is interested in and basically harnessing all of 173 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: this about the mind altering aspects just to weaponize it essentially, right, Uh, 174 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:29,680 Speaker 1: DARPA our our eternal fourth co host, you know, So 175 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: there's there's another thing here when we're when we're dwelling 176 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,679 Speaker 1: on the anecdotal stuff. We do have to say that 177 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: this very quickly gets us into some of the more 178 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 1: out there or fringe concepts, beliefs authors and before we 179 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 1: before we get to those ideas which are grand and 180 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: many are as beautiful as they are unprovable, but they're 181 00:10:55,920 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: all based on not so much the physical sensations people encounter, 182 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: but the psychological uh situations they encounter. And this I 183 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: think Matt is directly tying into some of the anecdotes 184 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:12,559 Speaker 1: you've mentioned. Everybody has sort of a lot of people 185 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: rather who try hallucin gens have this kind of hero's 186 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 1: journey tail, right, And then sometimes it's full of young 187 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 1: yean arc types. Uh. Sometimes it's just full of strange 188 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: perceptions of time and space or even synesthesia, things much 189 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: less easy to quantify in a rattled off list at 190 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: rapid fire at the end of a television commercial. Yeah, 191 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,679 Speaker 1: I mean, the the ineffable aspect of it is is 192 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 1: always a key factor. Um. Michael Paulan has an excellent 193 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: book that came out this year about psychedelics called How 194 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 1: to Change Your Mind, which which I recommend to everybody. 195 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,199 Speaker 1: Just just a wonderful read. But In an interview with 196 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: Terry Gross, he mentioned that William James once said that 197 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: the mystical experience of psychedelics is ineffable, yet we try 198 00:11:55,559 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: very hard to effit. Yeah, so so, Yeah's I think 199 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: it's a big thing to keep in mind with the 200 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: subjective experiences of psychedelics. It's that, first of all, set 201 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: in it's highly susceptible to set and setting, it's highly 202 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: susceptible to your mindset going into it. Therefore, it's also 203 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 1: highly susceptible to stories you've heard about the use of psychedelics, 204 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: be it inspiring tales from you know, various you know, psychonauts, 205 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 1: or the scare tactics of the moral panic and the 206 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: war on drugs that you know, they popped up in 207 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: the wake of the counterculture. And then after we've had 208 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: those experiences, we of course have memories of those experience, 209 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,079 Speaker 1: and memories are highly susceptible to us then tinkering with 210 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: them as we turn them into narrative. That's I'm sorry 211 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 1: for anyone who who can't see because this is an 212 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: audio podcast. When you said that, Robert, that's I had 213 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: the point across the table, because yes, memory is a 214 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 1: treacherous territory. Right, it's a it's a domain where you 215 00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: cannot really trust the geography you encounter. Uh. I wouldn't 216 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 1: go back to hallucinogens in general. I think growing up, 217 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:10,679 Speaker 1: at least here in the West, many many children, when 218 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 1: they encounter the idea of hallucinogens, they encounter a very 219 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: fictionalized representation of this. Right, somebody ingest something, Maybe Alice 220 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 1: in Wonderland would be a good example. Uh, somebody, somebody 221 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: ingests something, and then their concept of time and space 222 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: changes right or size right, and then they begin to 223 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: see visibly strange creatures, right, the white rabbits and so on. 224 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 1: But is that nonsense? Is that true when people take psilocybin? 225 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: Is are they seeing visual entities? It seems like there's 226 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: a lot of Uh, there's a lot of malarkey about 227 00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: hallucination out there. So what's the fact? What's the fiction? Well, 228 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:02,719 Speaker 1: I mean, I think a lot of the malarkey does 229 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 1: come from media representations of it um And part of 230 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: that is that it's it's difficult to capture the psychedelic 231 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: experience and of a fictional medium, be at a book, 232 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,559 Speaker 1: certainly in a movie. Uh. And then so a lot 233 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: of the examples we have, they're gonna they're gonna be 234 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: more like a dream sequence. They're going to um, you 235 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: know that they might not be that well executed, and 236 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 1: they are also probably gonna play into something that's more dramatic, right, 237 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: maybe even something more horrific as a means of dis 238 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: advancing whatever story they're telling. Do you guys remember the 239 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: book Go Ask Alice? Uh No? So it was a 240 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: one fictional book for young adults written by written anonymously, 241 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: and at the time, like when I was a kid, 242 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: it was a required book we had to read. And 243 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: it's basically the story of this young girl who starts 244 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: taking drugs and ultimately takes psychedelics and ends up like 245 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: throwing herself off a building and like done. And it's 246 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: it's it's now looked at as utter propaganda, but I 247 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: was forced to read it. And it was in the 248 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 1: era of Dare where they come through the school with 249 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: like a giant suitcase full of every drug and pointed 250 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 1: out and tell you all about it, all of these 251 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: horror stories. But I gotta say, the giant suitcase of drugs. 252 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: Just as a kid, I'm like, oh, I want to 253 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: try that. One, and that one and that one. What 254 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: makes you think of Thompson of course, which which, of 255 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: course the book and of certainly the movie are I 256 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: think for a lot of people are kind of like 257 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: their first or at least an early introduction into what 258 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: like the psychedelic experience might consist of. And yet at 259 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: the same time that movie is completely ridiculous depiction of things, 260 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: you know, like, I mean, it's wonderful, but it is 261 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: it's a highly uh, it highly depends on the depictions 262 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: of hallucination. I'll write visual hallucination the Las Vegas movie 263 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: in that country. Yeah, just so. And this this is 264 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: interesting though, especially the point about Hunter S. Thompson, because 265 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: while that is still very much gonz O right, very 266 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: much his genre, there are true events there that that 267 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: formed the kernel of this. So we are reading, uh, 268 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: what do they always say, you know, a made for 269 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: TV movie is more or less bs when that little 270 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 1: card comes up at the front of the show and 271 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 1: it says inspired by true events, inspired by actual events. 272 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: So we can say then that a lot of a 273 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: lot of Hunter S. Thompson's work was inspired by true events, 274 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: if not, you know, with a lot of poetic license, 275 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: but there's still a factual account. And if we look 276 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: back through the canon, you know Hunter S. Thompson go 277 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: ask Alice various shamanic experiences, we see the people have 278 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: been writing about this stuff for a very very long 279 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: time and have been doing it since before we figured 280 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: out how to write things right. Yeah. I mean really, 281 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: you look at so many ancient cultures and it's it's 282 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: it's difficult to find an example of one where there's 283 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: not a case or a definite strong case or a 284 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:08,440 Speaker 1: definite case to be made for hallucinogenics playing the psychedelics 285 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: playing some sort of role, uh in their society. I 286 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:14,159 Speaker 1: mean it was, it was part of shamanistic practices and 287 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: still remains a part of shamanistic practices in certain parts 288 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 1: of the world. I'd just like to jump back really 289 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:26,640 Speaker 1: fast to the Maryland Center um physiological effects of ingesting psilocybin, 290 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: because I think there are a couple in here that 291 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:31,159 Speaker 1: speak directly to what we're talking about that are the 292 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:35,880 Speaker 1: reason that this type of substance is used in shamanistic 293 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: practices and has been for so long. UM. Just very 294 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:43,119 Speaker 1: very specifically, the heightened sensory perceptions that that can occur 295 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 1: and that's probably the one Darpest most interested in. Oh yeah, exactly. Um, 296 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: the time and space being altered, like the feelings of 297 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: time and space being altered, right, as well as the 298 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 1: detachment from the self from the body basically the third 299 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 1: person ing that can occur with these substances, and it 300 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 1: is it's those three combined become such a potent um 301 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 1: avenue to explore I guess, your own consciousness or the 302 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,639 Speaker 1: feelings that you're having within that moment, and and the 303 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: single person's connection to the greater universe or nature or 304 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 1: the spirit whatever is being worshiped. You know, you can 305 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: really see it as a potent tool. And it's not 306 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 1: as it doesn't have to be even that lofty. It 307 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: could be something as simple as your connection to something 308 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,959 Speaker 1: like television, the concept of like watching television and what 309 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: that means and how you interact with something like that, 310 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:38,199 Speaker 1: and don't even think about what it is. Under the 311 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,439 Speaker 1: influence something like this, you might see it completely different. 312 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 1: In question how much time you spend with this box 313 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:48,640 Speaker 1: watching other people doing things on TV and your relationship 314 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 1: That might seem very normal. Otherwise, all of a sudden 315 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: you start to question and be like why why am 316 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: I doing this? Why am I putting so much emphasis 317 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: on this experience? I like to you mention that because 318 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 1: there are some studies that indicate, if not necessarily, psilocybin, 319 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: some hallucinogens are very helpful with people who are struggling 320 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 1: with habits or addictions, right, anything from uh, smoking too. 321 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 1: I imagine I haven't seen a study on it, but 322 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 1: I imagine what if there's someone who watches too much 323 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 1: TV and they're like, drop this, now, watch this marathon? 324 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,920 Speaker 1: Is Seinfeld. It's just associations in general. Right, the idea, 325 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 1: Let's say I'm addicted to cigarettes. In my mind, this 326 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 1: is a steadfast part of who I am. Under the 327 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: influence of psychedelics, you might be able to take a 328 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: step back and see it as something that you can 329 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:36,360 Speaker 1: just be very easily cast off or take or leave. 330 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 1: You know. So there's a high level look at the 331 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 1: nuts and bolts of psilocybin and specific some of the history, 332 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 1: some of the current research, and you know, I think 333 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: a pretty accurate look at the controversy and the mechanics 334 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 1: of the experience. Right, But what if there is more 335 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 1: to the story, What if there is something beyond the 336 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 1: psychological effects that compels our species and has compelled it 337 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:12,880 Speaker 1: for thousands of years to to pursue these hallucinogenic experiences. 338 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. There's this author named Terrence McKenna. 339 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: Terrence mckennall was born in nineteen six And if you 340 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:38,159 Speaker 1: are familiar with characters such as Timothy Leary. Uh, if 341 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:44,120 Speaker 1: you're familiar with the the revolution of hallucinogens right through 342 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,360 Speaker 1: through the sixties into the seventies and so on, then 343 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: you have heard this name before. You may have read 344 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: books like Food of the Gods, The Search for the 345 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,919 Speaker 1: Original Tree of Knowledge, and uh, shout out to my 346 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 1: friend Henry if you're listening, because this this is the 347 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 1: part of the episode that I think you will find 348 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: incredibly fascinating. This this guy's a friend of ours. Will 349 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: sometimes write to me and try to get us to 350 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:16,399 Speaker 1: do another psychedelic episode. So you're you're helping us very much, Robert. Uh, 351 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 1: because you've read some Terrence McKenna, right, yeah, yeah, I've 352 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,640 Speaker 1: been on something of a Terence McKenna kick recently, and 353 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: uh yeah, I McKenna is a fascinating individual, wonderful writer, 354 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: a wonderful speaker too. There's no shortage of YouTube streams 355 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 1: and whatnot available out there, you can you can listen 356 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: to him present his ideas to people. Um he uh, 357 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: you know, I think it's it's fair to compare him 358 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: to Timothy Leary in in a sense, like in kind 359 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: of a way, he was kind of feeling that the void, uh, 360 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:53,399 Speaker 1: you know, feeling that the place for a you know, 361 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,399 Speaker 1: spokesperson for the psychedelic experience in the counter country culture, 362 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 1: especially during the nineteen nineties. Um. But he also I 363 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: think in many respects it's more it feels felt more 364 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 1: authentic than Leary. H. Leary was also a fascinating individual 365 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: who certainly said some profound things and and played a 366 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,160 Speaker 1: powerful role in the counterculture. At the same time, had 367 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: plenty of faults to go around as well. Um. And 368 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 1: uh definitely like leaned into the sort of guru nature 369 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: that was you know, that was given to him. But 370 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 1: McKinnon's fascinating from a number of standpoints. Uh. Certainly his 371 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: his commentary on psychedelics, but he also wrote and spoke 372 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 1: about the various aspects of the human experience. This name 373 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: may be unfamiliar to some of us listening today, but 374 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:48,360 Speaker 1: you may have already encountered some of his ideas, right, 375 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:56,399 Speaker 1: Because when we talk about a hallucinogenic psychedelic experience, we 376 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 1: we're humans, right. Our brains are built to kind of 377 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:03,199 Speaker 1: categorize and group things, and so it's no surprise that 378 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: similar to reports of near death experiences, some hallucinogens and 379 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: some people's experience using them appear to have trends. And 380 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: that's when you'll hear people tell you with complete conviction 381 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: that they have not only uh gone to a new 382 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: realm of consciousness, but they encountered something there when they 383 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: took the substance. Right. And then the big question for 384 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,880 Speaker 1: me here when we're discussing something like this is if 385 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: you are going to go down that route of there 386 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: is a shared experience in some way when using these substances. 387 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: Is it a shared thing with the humans and our 388 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: biological systems and out the history of our biological systems, 389 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 1: or is it something with the substance itself that is 390 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: either unlocking something within us or is imparting something, which 391 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: is always an interesting sort of the idea of like 392 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,919 Speaker 1: a collective unconsciousness that people are tapping unconscious people are 393 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: tapping into kind of or yeah, and I think A 394 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,479 Speaker 1: big part of it comes back to what we we 395 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: do believe that psychedelics are doing basic well. In one 396 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 1: of the analogies I love is the shaking of the 397 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 1: snow globe, shaking things up, changing your perspective, putting you 398 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 1: in a mindset that could enable you to overcome various addictions. Again, 399 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: that's one of the areas where we see some some 400 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: wonderful you know, research results. But uh, and again it's 401 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: not the psychedelic substances themselves that that are are treating 402 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: or could be used to treat addictions, but it is 403 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 1: the state that they invoke, the psychedelic experience itself. And 404 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 1: and so if you're you know, if you're put in 405 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,120 Speaker 1: a state where suddenly you're seeing everything from new perspectives, um, 406 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: you can certainly put you in a state where you 407 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 1: can you can have some rather uh you know, almost 408 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 1: alien interpretations of what's going on inside your your brain 409 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 1: and what's going on inside of a reality. And really quick, 410 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: as far as the research, do you know, we can 411 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: look this up if if no one does, are is 412 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,919 Speaker 1: there any st that goes into like does it change 413 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: your brain on a physiological level or about yeah, or 414 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: is it more about you remembering the experience and applying 415 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 1: that to your life in terms of using it as 416 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: treatment or in terms of the lasting impact of an 417 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 1: experience like this. Unless I'm forgetting a key study, I 418 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 1: don't don't believe there are any any studies that point 419 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 1: to like fixed changes and you know the structure of 420 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: the brain. I wouldn't have thought so either. To me, 421 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 1: it seems more like I'm learning, I'm having a session 422 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: where I'm experiencing something that I'm remembering that it almost 423 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 1: it doesn't require you to repeat the experience over and 424 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: over again. You can just do it a handful of times, 425 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 1: in the same way you can go to therapy. You 426 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: don't have to be in therapy seven. You go occasionally 427 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 1: and you learn from that and you take your experiences 428 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 1: and apply them to your life. Yeah, it's change behavior, 429 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 1: not going to change your DNA, which I think there 430 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:51,640 Speaker 1: were something stories about that back in the day. But yeah, 431 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: I think it's it's it comes back to the idea 432 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 1: that they are physiologically rather beyond but psychologically powerful, and 433 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 1: that's where the impact I did see. I did see 434 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: a study about some hallucinogen I think it was those 435 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:12,360 Speaker 1: the psychedelic drugs LSD and ecstasy, not mushrooms. And now 436 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: technically m D m A is not a psychedelic right 437 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: right that I think they they grouped it specifically LSD, 438 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,159 Speaker 1: and then they also studied ecstasy or m D m 439 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 1: A and they found that there can be some physical 440 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: alteration of the brain. But to these researchers, let's see 441 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,640 Speaker 1: who was this. This is David Olson, who's an assistant 442 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:39,120 Speaker 1: professor of chemistry and molecular medicine at u C. Davis. 443 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 1: What they found seemed to be potentially beneficial rather than 444 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 1: something damaging. They thought it could have benefits for people 445 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: with certain mood disorders. But I haven't I haven't seen 446 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: a ton of the a ton of the research that 447 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 1: would indicate, you know, what you're talking about in old 448 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: some kind of massive, system wide physical change in the brain. 449 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: And I think part of that is because our research 450 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 1: was stymied for so long, right due to some of 451 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:15,479 Speaker 1: the social concerns and taboos mentioned earlier. And that's why 452 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 1: that's why some of these concepts that are still so 453 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 1: very very out there. You know, the idea that accidental 454 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:29,880 Speaker 1: ingestion and then later purposeful ingestion of hallucinogenic materials lead 455 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 1: to religion, right or what's the uh, what's the other one. 456 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: That's the Terrence McKenna talked about the stoned ape that yeah, 457 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: that one, Yeah, they ape hypothesis, which is which is 458 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 1: a fabulous, very entertaining hypothesis. And his book Food of 459 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: the Gods is is really I found it really rewarding. 460 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: Read tell us a bit about that because this goes 461 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: into those uh, the heightened sensory percents that we talked to. 462 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 1: That's one of the that's one of the keys. So 463 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: he makes this argument that that human consciousness emerges in 464 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 1: large part due to the consumption of psychedelics by our 465 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: you know, our prehistoric ancestors. And he made the case 466 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 1: he makes is you know, incomplete. It's um. You know, 467 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 1: there's no way to prove it and maybe no way 468 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: to really disprove it. But he points to heightened perception, 469 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: which I believe there's been a recent study with with 470 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:25,120 Speaker 1: canines or or um canines are wolves, I forget which 471 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 1: that that that showed like similar situation like enhancing their 472 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,199 Speaker 1: ability to uh in the case of dogs, you know, 473 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 1: to to define their food. In the case of hunter, 474 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,640 Speaker 1: gatherers it could have had an effect there. McKinnon also 475 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 1: made an argument for like enhancing the libido, leading to, um, 476 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 1: you the more breeding and then just sort of a 477 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 1: you know, an evolution of thought and the the rise 478 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: of language and so forth. Um. And then he plays 479 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 1: a lot too with like looking at like where this 480 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: would have occurred, and how it would have occurred, what 481 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: substances might have occurred. Well, at the same time acknowledging 482 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: that it was written during the dark age of psychedelic research, 483 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 1: that there were still a lot of questions remaining and uh, 484 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 1: and certain archaeological finds he said, would need to be 485 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: made to like fully support his case. And that's you know, 486 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: that's one thing that gives him a ton of street 487 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: cred in my opinion, is being able to say, Okay, 488 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: also we have to, you know, wait for proof. I 489 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: think this is possible, but let's wait till we see 490 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: we see the bones. One of the biggest walkaways I 491 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: have whenever I read some McKenna stuff is I'll say, 492 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 1: all right, this is very this is very far away 493 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: from what maybe the mainstream thinks, right. Uh, certainly it's 494 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 1: far away from what the US federal government officially thinks 495 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: about psychedelics. However, you know, you read stuff like that 496 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 1: and you go back to medieval text that some really 497 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 1: probably intoxicated monks have been working on, and then you 498 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 1: see the strange art and you think, you know, okay, 499 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: it's plausible. Maybe more people were using psychedelics than we thought, right, 500 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: And the symbolism right in Mesoamerica, right, And I think 501 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: we mentioned to various different manuscripts seemed to have what 502 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: appears to be uh mushrooms of some sort playing these 503 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: incredibly important, significant symbolic roles, really quick diversion, I think 504 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,640 Speaker 1: the supplies. So I've been reading this book called Sapiens 505 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 1: by 'vall Noah Harari, and it's the idea of the 506 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 1: evolution of man, and I didn't realize that a lot 507 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: of pre um Homo sapien species existed on the planet 508 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 1: at the same time. You have this sense of there 509 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: being this like this graph of like the you know, 510 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 1: the slumped over pre man developing into the upright man. 511 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 1: But apparently all of these kind of developed at the 512 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 1: same time, and it was Homo sapiens ability to develop 513 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 1: language and be able to tell stories and almost create 514 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 1: these sort of belief systems that led to us becoming 515 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: the top of the food chain. That's sort of the 516 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: hypothesis in this book, and it makes a lot sense. 517 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 1: And to me, you know, maybe the ape that ate 518 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 1: the psychedelic mushroom and kind of had his perception change 519 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: would have been the one that started to develop language 520 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: or create these more abstract ideas of storytelling. And it's 521 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 1: something as simple as me telling you a sort of 522 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: fictional tale about some animals interacting to inventing something like 523 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 1: an LLC, like a corporation, or like the idea of money. 524 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: That's all just kind of fictions that we believe and 525 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 1: we accept. But that's what separates us from other species 526 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: that can only say the dog is over there, But 527 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: they can't say, you know, the dog talk to the 528 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 1: cat and create this narrative surrounding that whatever the dog 529 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: is over there, because that is the way to access 530 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 1: the afterlife exactly, you guys. It's because they accessed the overmind. 531 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 1: They got down into the my celial connections. They figured out, oh, 532 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 1: it's all one big thing, you guys, and we're just 533 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 1: a part of it. And I get the stone dp 534 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 1: thing is very unprovable, but I think I'm on the 535 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 1: same page with the Robbert that it's fascina, and I 536 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: can kind of see how that could be a leg up. Yeah, 537 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 1: Like I'm I'm not I'm not really into saying like 538 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: it's the thing, but I think there you can certainly 539 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: make a case that any substance or event or experience 540 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 1: that causes a person to sort of step outside of 541 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 1: their normal way of thinking. Um, and that can be anything. 542 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 1: It could be It could be so assignment, it could 543 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 1: be trauma, it could be a sickness. Uh, you know, 544 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 1: they're there are numerous things that can bring on these 545 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: states like those would undoubtedly have effects on the course 546 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,239 Speaker 1: of human culture over time, just because they would be 547 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,959 Speaker 1: moments where people would stop and say, why are we 548 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 1: doing it this way? Why am I thinking about the 549 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: world this way? What if we did it like this instead? 550 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 1: Is in tradition just pure pressure from dead people. Come on, guys, 551 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,719 Speaker 1: the sun will rise whether or not we sacrifice somewhat. 552 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: That's be very glib there. I do want to point out, though, 553 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: while Harari is an excellent writer, uh Sapiens, towards the 554 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 1: end feels a lot more speculative, and it feels like 555 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 1: his more of his opinions and his beliefs. And that's 556 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 1: something we run into with McKenna. Both of these authors, however, 557 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 1: I believe or careful to you know, are carefully couch 558 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 1: things as their beliefs. Right, Like you said, They're not 559 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 1: necessarily saying this is the way, this is the consistent 560 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 1: experience people have. But we do see some trends, and 561 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 1: some of those trends are inarguable and they are easily proven, 562 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 1: such as the spiritual use of these substances two sometimes 563 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 1: unite communities. Right, somebody goes maybe sometimes to change someone's 564 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 1: place in a society. Right, you have you have undergone this, right, 565 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: this ritual. Therefore you are a holy person or maybe 566 00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 1: you are now an adult something like that. And then 567 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: also there's this connection to the concept of the other world, 568 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 1: the dream world, right, and we um, I wonder how 569 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 1: that translates to the modern day. We know that there's 570 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:18,759 Speaker 1: still some traditional use of hallucinogens like ayahuasca, right, is 571 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 1: still traditionally used by several different communities. Uh, but are 572 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 1: there are there other things? Are there modern analogs? I mean? 573 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 1: Is I guess part of the question is when people 574 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,840 Speaker 1: go to burning man right, and they and they take 575 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:42,400 Speaker 1: hallucin genic substance. Are they are they doing something similar 576 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 1: to the shamanistic quest or is it is it just recreational? 577 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 1: I don't know. That's also a very personal question, like 578 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: how has our use of these substances changed? Well, you know, 579 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,320 Speaker 1: I think, you know, I Canno would have certainly agreed 580 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 1: that like Burning Man is part of like this bohemian 581 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 1: thread that he called it, this thing that's you know, 582 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 1: moving us towards an archaic revival return to especially in 583 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 1: Western civilization to a uh, it's just sort of almost 584 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 1: a neolithic state of not necessarily not really technology or 585 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 1: a culture about our connection with each other, in our 586 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 1: connection with nature. Um. That being said, yeah, there, I'm 587 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 1: sure there there are people at Burning Man who are 588 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:29,799 Speaker 1: just taking substances without a lot of forethought and doing 589 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 1: it just for you know, entertainment purposes, if you will. 590 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 1: And then there are you know, people who are having 591 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,360 Speaker 1: profound experiences and and setting out to have profound experiences. 592 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 1: Another big psychonaut and I guess who is still very 593 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,359 Speaker 1: much active to the is Alex Gray. I know you're 594 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,400 Speaker 1: a you're a fan of He's an incredible ye, he 595 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 1: was that burning Man. Yeah, he's a visual artist. He 596 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:49,719 Speaker 1: does these I don't know how you describe them. They're 597 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:51,960 Speaker 1: almost these mandala asked kind of where this flesh is 598 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 1: stripped away of figures. A lot of times they're sort 599 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 1: of mother and child kind of imagery. And it's very 600 00:35:57,480 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 1: much this idea of us as being soul and we 601 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: haven't they talked about that aspect of the psychedelic experience. 602 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: But what I'd like to but he Um has been 603 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 1: associated with the band Tool for years doing art for them, 604 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 1: and they did like a listening party for this new 605 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 1: Tool record that came out on this giant dragon like 606 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,359 Speaker 1: mad Max looking dragon boat truck thing. I don't know 607 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 1: what you call it. But he's a guy who it's 608 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: so funny, like Terence McKenna, very funny sounding guy. His voice, 609 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:26,440 Speaker 1: the way he speaks Alex Gray sounds very similar. I 610 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 1: wonder if that there's something about the fact that they've 611 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 1: been using these substances so frequently that causes them to 612 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 1: almost become a certain way. It's very interesting that well, 613 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,239 Speaker 1: I don't know. We we really can know, though, I mean, 614 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 1: we won't know until there's an opportunity to do a 615 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:47,279 Speaker 1: longitudinal study. Absolutely, and I'm not making fun or light 616 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: at all. They just both have a very similar way 617 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 1: that they speak, in a way that they kind of 618 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,319 Speaker 1: carry themselves. And I don't know. I only just heard 619 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 1: Alex Gray speak like the other day and I was like, 620 00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:01,440 Speaker 1: he sounds just like Terence McKenna. Well, well maybe to 621 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 1: certain materians that definitely had a real knack for speaking 622 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,640 Speaker 1: in a way of of stressing certain words would come 623 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 1: out of his mouth like he he had a wonderful cadence. Um. Again, 624 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,160 Speaker 1: he's all over YouTube, so you can find six he's 625 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,399 Speaker 1: on a tool song. I believe the Third Eye isn't 626 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:25,440 Speaker 1: there isn't there a sample of stuff? Uh, But but 627 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:27,839 Speaker 1: he he does show up in some I've heard some 628 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:30,719 Speaker 1: electronic tracks. There's a there's actually an artist by the 629 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 1: name of h We Plants Are Happy Plants, and they 630 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 1: have an album that has an extended sample from mckennady. 631 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:39,399 Speaker 1: It's really cool, and I think that artists also did 632 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:43,840 Speaker 1: a like a full length sort of documentary. Uh. That's uh, 633 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:49,400 Speaker 1: that's available just for free on YouTube. DJ's love sample 634 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 1: and Terris McKenny, because again, he has such this vast 635 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 1: catalog of recorded recorded speeches and monologues. And also I 636 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,600 Speaker 1: meant in the longitudinal study, uh, not to not to 637 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:07,800 Speaker 1: whoosh on a joke, but to return to one of 638 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:09,719 Speaker 1: the things you said at the very top of the 639 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:14,600 Speaker 1: show today, Robert. Uh, you talked about this renaissance, right, 640 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,279 Speaker 1: which in which we are currently living. We're recording this 641 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:25,839 Speaker 1: during a renaissance of research into psychedelics, into psilocybin. But 642 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,920 Speaker 1: we can't have a renaissance unless it is preceded by 643 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,279 Speaker 1: some sorts of dark age. And and that's why we 644 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 1: call these things a renaissance. So we know that during 645 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: the seventies and eighties there was intense and and to 646 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,920 Speaker 1: the nineties as well, there was an intense push by 647 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 1: Uncle Sam to make sure people were aware of at 648 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:56,239 Speaker 1: least the US legal opinion of psychedelics, which was that 649 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:58,520 Speaker 1: they were up to any dare kid can tell you 650 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 1: they were up there with heroin, with crack and things 651 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,000 Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, there's Schedule one still in most places. 652 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:06,799 Speaker 1: And uh, it's it's funny that they call it schedule one, 653 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:08,799 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like when does the train leave? 654 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,799 Speaker 1: I don't know, that's confusing when you're a child. Oh yeah, 655 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,720 Speaker 1: I mean it's a completely nonsense obviously. I mean, schedule 656 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,120 Speaker 1: one means that there's is supposed to have no like 657 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:21,520 Speaker 1: medicals um properties at all. But and yet so you have, 658 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:25,719 Speaker 1: you know, psilocybin schedule one, marijuana schedule one, cocaine schedule too. 659 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 1: I feel like that's cocaine. Yeah, I feel like that 660 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:32,880 Speaker 1: that says something about the people who made the list. 661 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:35,440 Speaker 1: And so I was like, I don't know, man, you know, 662 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:37,719 Speaker 1: if I've I've had, if I if I need a 663 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:41,560 Speaker 1: little extra kick before the meeting, Yeah, it's cocaine's schedule 664 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 1: to it's it's as it's as flawed as the food pyramid, honestly. 665 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:52,279 Speaker 1: But now we see these indications that we've been sort 666 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:56,279 Speaker 1: of foreshadowing and talking about during the length of today's show, 667 00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:00,040 Speaker 1: which our research forays or pushes in two things. It 668 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:05,440 Speaker 1: is like treating addiction PTSD. Right, could you could you 669 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,120 Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about They don't want to 670 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,719 Speaker 1: enter into speculation, but if you tell us a little 671 00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:15,719 Speaker 1: bit about what possibilities people are seeing out there for 672 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:20,240 Speaker 1: the you know, the future of humanities relationship to psychedelics, 673 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:25,360 Speaker 1: as well as uh, the potential findings research trends, we 674 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:27,279 Speaker 1: might see in the future. Well, i'd say the big 675 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,720 Speaker 1: research trends are, of course the treatment of various addictions 676 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:32,759 Speaker 1: and and a lot of that's going back. Like one 677 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,719 Speaker 1: of the real precursors of that was like pre um 678 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,920 Speaker 1: p nineteen seventies studies that looked at it's usefulness to 679 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:42,279 Speaker 1: treat alcoholism specifically, they were using LSD because that's what 680 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:44,800 Speaker 1: was available back then. And now most of the studies 681 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:48,040 Speaker 1: are using psilocybin because it is more readily available. It 682 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:52,080 Speaker 1: is less um tap made taboo by you know, the 683 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties, also less long act. Yeah, yeah, you can. 684 00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:57,400 Speaker 1: You can do it without the doctors having to babyset 685 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,359 Speaker 1: people for an extended period time. People can go home 686 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,840 Speaker 1: in the evening. But yeah, we're seeing a lot of 687 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:06,760 Speaker 1: a lot of advancements in the treatment of various addictions, 688 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:09,160 Speaker 1: but also the treatment of end of life anxiety and 689 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:14,240 Speaker 1: cancer depression. That that to me is it's huge because 690 00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:19,280 Speaker 1: if if we can imagine long term in the world 691 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:23,520 Speaker 1: using a substance like this to make people just almost 692 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,560 Speaker 1: if it's just a thing that occurs from some point 693 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:30,920 Speaker 1: moving forward where people are just okay, satisfied with the 694 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:33,880 Speaker 1: life that they've lived no matter you know what, good 695 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,799 Speaker 1: or terrible things have occurred within that life, but they're 696 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:39,719 Speaker 1: satisfied that the end is coming, and it is, you know, 697 00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:43,200 Speaker 1: either not the end, uh, you know, not fully the 698 00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:45,720 Speaker 1: end because of the way this substance is making me feel, 699 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,040 Speaker 1: or that I'm going to be recombined in some way 700 00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:51,719 Speaker 1: with the universe. Just having those positive feelings towards the 701 00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,279 Speaker 1: end of life for everyone could be an incredible thing 702 00:41:55,400 --> 00:42:05,680 Speaker 1: for I think a humanity. I think it just again, 703 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:11,320 Speaker 1: it's all about reframing an experience. It's it's less about oh, 704 00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,560 Speaker 1: everything's gonna be okay because I see a beautiful light 705 00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:17,080 Speaker 1: and I'm going to quote unquote heaven or some kind 706 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,040 Speaker 1: of beyond or universe connective thing to me. It's like, 707 00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:22,680 Speaker 1: in the same way that psychedelis could reframe you're thinking 708 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:26,840 Speaker 1: about smoking cigarettes, it could also reframe your thinking about death. 709 00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:29,759 Speaker 1: And I think that's that's the important part, and it's 710 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,600 Speaker 1: something we didn't already touch on earlier, but it's very important, 711 00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,200 Speaker 1: I think, to make make it clear that there is 712 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,000 Speaker 1: this whole dichotomy of like bad trip, good trip is 713 00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:43,200 Speaker 1: kind of nonsense. Like essentially, any report you look at, 714 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:45,000 Speaker 1: any any serious study that people are going to have 715 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,160 Speaker 1: a mix, they're going to um, they're going to have 716 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,799 Speaker 1: challenging moments, and they're going to have rewarding moments. And 717 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:54,319 Speaker 1: that is part of shaking up the snow globe, is 718 00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:56,440 Speaker 1: that it's going to put things in a new context 719 00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:58,400 Speaker 1: and may put your fear in a new context, but 720 00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:00,319 Speaker 1: it also may put some of the things you hold 721 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:02,560 Speaker 1: very dear in a new context and force you to 722 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:07,440 Speaker 1: re analyze them. I think at it's at its most powerful, 723 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,839 Speaker 1: one of the one of the analogs anecdotally for this 724 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:13,839 Speaker 1: kind of experience, at least the more positive end of 725 00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:20,280 Speaker 1: it is the revelation that many astronauts or cosmonauts report 726 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:24,320 Speaker 1: when they see the planet by itself for the first 727 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:28,280 Speaker 1: time and they they returned back to Earth hopefully safely, 728 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:33,759 Speaker 1: and they're, you know, nothing has physiologically changed in their brain, right, 729 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:39,560 Speaker 1: nothing is nothing other than the clearly traumatic experience of 730 00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,879 Speaker 1: having to exist in space. Nothing other than has changed them. 731 00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:47,800 Speaker 1: They literally just saw something and they had this moment 732 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:52,960 Speaker 1: that psychologically sent them to a different place and that's 733 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,360 Speaker 1: where they've stayed. And so when we see people having 734 00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:00,480 Speaker 1: you know, tremendously powerful whether for the good or the 735 00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:04,960 Speaker 1: ill experiences on hallucinogens. We have to understand that even 736 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:08,520 Speaker 1: if the brain cells don't stay, and even if memory 737 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:12,120 Speaker 1: does consistently erode and shift every time you're not looking 738 00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:15,319 Speaker 1: directly at it, that there there is a value to that. 739 00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:19,640 Speaker 1: And I have to wonder, you know, when did the 740 00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:24,080 Speaker 1: needle begin to swing away from you know, this stuff 741 00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:28,320 Speaker 1: being forbidden into this stuff being I wouldn't say accepted 742 00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:33,160 Speaker 1: because numbers of usage statistics are still really low, but 743 00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:37,000 Speaker 1: I would say it's increasingly going to the mainstream. Especially 744 00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:40,040 Speaker 1: you know, we've got a lot of Silicon Valley elites 745 00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:44,279 Speaker 1: who are very much on board with hallucinogen. It's not 746 00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,479 Speaker 1: just a burning man, right, and I think we see 747 00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:53,360 Speaker 1: these people as successful individuals in these are modern days. 748 00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:56,719 Speaker 1: So now there seems to be this logical I don't know, 749 00:44:56,719 --> 00:45:00,000 Speaker 1: I'm tracing into silicon value, but that's very uh cocktail 750 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,680 Speaker 1: a Napkin math, you know. Uh. Now there seems to 751 00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:07,440 Speaker 1: be the psychological association that says one can be successful 752 00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:10,120 Speaker 1: and use psychedelics. Think about this, like, what if you 753 00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:15,560 Speaker 1: combined use of psilocybin with a therapist who is very 754 00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:17,680 Speaker 1: versed in that in the same way you might have 755 00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:21,680 Speaker 1: a shaman or somebody in a ritualistic experience guiding you, 756 00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,560 Speaker 1: you know, um through this experience. What if you could 757 00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:26,680 Speaker 1: combine you know, we haven't even talked about micro dosing, 758 00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:30,120 Speaker 1: the idea of taking small amounts of hallucinogens that can 759 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:34,799 Speaker 1: have less of a hallucinogenic effect and more of just 760 00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:37,920 Speaker 1: a changing your base level kind of effect. But I 761 00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:42,319 Speaker 1: love the potential for pushing this into the mainstream even more, 762 00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:45,319 Speaker 1: you know, like going to a therapist who is very 763 00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:48,760 Speaker 1: well versed in hallucinogenic experiences and can you can dose 764 00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,320 Speaker 1: and then have your session where they may be in 765 00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:54,279 Speaker 1: the same as a guided meditation or a dream you know, 766 00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:56,920 Speaker 1: reversion or whatever whatever what have you. You know, I 767 00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:58,439 Speaker 1: think there's a lot of potential for that we haven't 768 00:45:58,480 --> 00:45:59,799 Speaker 1: seen yet. Yeah, I know, there's a lot of that 769 00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:03,360 Speaker 1: go on in the underground, uh you know, you know, 770 00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:05,920 Speaker 1: due to the legality, and that's that's where it is. 771 00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:08,040 Speaker 1: Michael Pollan talks about this in his book A little bit, 772 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:11,480 Speaker 1: actually shops around for the right people to go to 773 00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,759 Speaker 1: to have this experience because he wants an experience on 774 00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,600 Speaker 1: par with the sort of the clinical therapeutic experiences that 775 00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:20,960 Speaker 1: are taking place in these studies, and uh, you know, 776 00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,560 Speaker 1: he finds some people that look maybe seemed a little shifty. Uh, 777 00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:27,240 Speaker 1: but then I found some people that seemed that seemed 778 00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:29,880 Speaker 1: like they would be very promising and uh and and 779 00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:32,759 Speaker 1: had a profound experience. But yeah, I would I would 780 00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:36,200 Speaker 1: love to see that that sort of thing coming. I mean, 781 00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:39,640 Speaker 1: that's coming back into the world, but coming into Western 782 00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:42,160 Speaker 1: civilization really for the first time. Well, and you may 783 00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:44,920 Speaker 1: be in luck, Robert, because there's this guy named Christian 784 00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:48,880 Speaker 1: auger Meyer I believe is anger Meyer. Yeah. He Uh, 785 00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:52,319 Speaker 1: he's a very wealthy individual and he's got some very 786 00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:55,919 Speaker 1: powerful friends who are also extremely wealthy. I always trust 787 00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:01,080 Speaker 1: people like that. That's that's the main thing. Well, he 788 00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:04,320 Speaker 1: he has means right, and he has an idea because 789 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:08,120 Speaker 1: he had a personal experience with psychedelics that he says, 790 00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:10,960 Speaker 1: quote was the single most meaningful thing I've ever done 791 00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:14,439 Speaker 1: or experienced in my life. Uh, nothing has ever come 792 00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:17,600 Speaker 1: close to it. He wants to or at least he's 793 00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:21,680 Speaker 1: expressed that he wants to commercialize in some way or 794 00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:26,680 Speaker 1: at least mainstream psychedelics and in particular psilocybin. Uh, in 795 00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:29,799 Speaker 1: some way maybe like you're talking about maybe just more 796 00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,959 Speaker 1: of products, who knows, but it looks as though he's 797 00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:38,520 Speaker 1: on the route to make those things happen. As the legality, now, 798 00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:40,319 Speaker 1: I don't think we said this. It was just made 799 00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:45,080 Speaker 1: legal in Colorado. It was decriminalized, right, Maybe it was 800 00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:49,480 Speaker 1: it was recreationally passed somewhere. Okay, I know it's decriminalized 801 00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:55,239 Speaker 1: in uh in Colorado. It's I think Oakland, California, like 802 00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:59,759 Speaker 1: the single place of Oakland, California. There there are some 803 00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:03,120 Speaker 1: very strict laws were still placed all over the country. 804 00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:06,120 Speaker 1: I mean even when you get down to the plant itself, 805 00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:09,080 Speaker 1: I mean plants themselves, but in this case, the fungus itself, 806 00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:13,839 Speaker 1: the spores are particularly highly illegal in California and in 807 00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:17,919 Speaker 1: Georgia where we're recording this, because they're easy to transport to, right, 808 00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:23,520 Speaker 1: So it's not like you're hauling around a huge marijuana plant, right, 809 00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:26,279 Speaker 1: it's much easier. And But not to make the most 810 00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:30,400 Speaker 1: like obvious, like hippie statement ever, but just how ridiculous 811 00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:34,239 Speaker 1: is it that that certain plants are outlawed by the 812 00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:38,160 Speaker 1: descented apes that have you know, destroyed most of the planet. 813 00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,920 Speaker 1: It's true, It's true. Used them to gain their prominence 814 00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:45,760 Speaker 1: over the planet, and perhaps making them illegal is actually 815 00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:50,279 Speaker 1: preventing them from being a victim of this great extinction 816 00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:54,879 Speaker 1: in which we live. I'm spitballing there now in Colorado, 817 00:48:55,560 --> 00:49:00,000 Speaker 1: just in case anybody's outside of Denver and thinking, oh great, uh, 818 00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:02,879 Speaker 1: we do have to we do have to let you know. 819 00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:10,120 Speaker 1: Mushrooms of this sort are decriminalized in Denver. There's still 820 00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:14,200 Speaker 1: illegal in Colorado, and there's still illegal in Denver, and 821 00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:16,239 Speaker 1: they're still illegal in the United States. Pretty if you 822 00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:19,480 Speaker 1: were listening to this podcast, chances are you're somewhere where 823 00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:24,120 Speaker 1: mushrooms where psilocybin mushrooms are quite illegal. And if you're 824 00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:27,880 Speaker 1: if you're somewhere where they're legal, you know, let us know. 825 00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:29,759 Speaker 1: What are you doing this week? Do you wanna do 826 00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:34,280 Speaker 1: you want to hang out? Um? Speaking of hanging out, Robert, 827 00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:39,839 Speaker 1: thank you so much for taking this journey with us today. 828 00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:42,640 Speaker 1: A lot of our listeners right now are going but 829 00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:44,920 Speaker 1: you didn't get to this, You didn't get to this. 830 00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:50,920 Speaker 1: What else is there? We have some good news because, 831 00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,640 Speaker 1: as as the co host of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, 832 00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:58,560 Speaker 1: you and you and Joe McCormick, who appeared earlier in 833 00:49:58,600 --> 00:49:59,920 Speaker 1: an episode of stuff that I want you to know, 834 00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:05,360 Speaker 1: have done a deep dive into psychedelics. Where can people 835 00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:08,480 Speaker 1: find this five part series? So we did if Yeah, 836 00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:10,600 Speaker 1: the five part series on psychedelics. You can find it. 837 00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:12,239 Speaker 1: It's stuff to Blow your Mind dot com or just 838 00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:14,560 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. You just look up stuff 839 00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:16,960 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind and there it is. I do 840 00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:18,440 Speaker 1: have to say, you know, even though we took a 841 00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:21,280 Speaker 1: deep dive, you know, we were not able to explore everything. 842 00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:23,520 Speaker 1: Either it is you could, you could do an entire 843 00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:28,400 Speaker 1: series on psychedelics, on even particular psychedelics, and there's still 844 00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:31,200 Speaker 1: against so much that we don't know and our figuring out. 845 00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:33,359 Speaker 1: And it's a story that changes day to day too 846 00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:35,239 Speaker 1: with that, especially now that the doors have been kind 847 00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:37,719 Speaker 1: of blown open with this renaissance as you describe it, 848 00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:40,840 Speaker 1: with this research. Um, the sky's kind of the limit, 849 00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:43,759 Speaker 1: and it does feel like the tide is turning, if 850 00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:45,840 Speaker 1: a little bit slowly, as things tend to do in 851 00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:48,719 Speaker 1: the law. Yeah, I mean right now, the research is 852 00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:52,960 Speaker 1: very promising. Hopefully we'll see rescheduling in the future. I've 853 00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:56,040 Speaker 1: heard that there are some serious uh there a serious 854 00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:57,920 Speaker 1: possibility that to M. D. M A will be rescheduled 855 00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:01,640 Speaker 1: in the near future due to therapeutic advancements that were 856 00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:04,200 Speaker 1: being made with it. And in terms of the future 857 00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:06,120 Speaker 1: with psychedelics, Yeah, I mean, there's of course so many 858 00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:09,240 Speaker 1: questions like who who controls it been? Is it Silicon 859 00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:13,680 Speaker 1: Valley Bros. Is it the pharmaceutical industry? Uh? Does it 860 00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:17,319 Speaker 1: remain kind of an essential part of the underground? Of 861 00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:21,360 Speaker 1: course it won't be that. I mean, someone's gonna co 862 00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:23,160 Speaker 1: modify at somewhat, you know what I mean that is? 863 00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:25,480 Speaker 1: I don't know. I hate to be negative, but but 864 00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:27,800 Speaker 1: I will say I was reading one of these articles 865 00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:30,799 Speaker 1: about some of the studies. Another drug that has been 866 00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:34,920 Speaker 1: associated with sort of club culture, UM ketamine is being 867 00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:39,040 Speaker 1: used in very very high level clinical trials for treating 868 00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:46,120 Speaker 1: treatment resistant depression, also very controlled. A friend of mine 869 00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:49,719 Speaker 1: in New York City, UH is participating and you get 870 00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:53,960 Speaker 1: a drip of ketamine that is a very very um, 871 00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:58,759 Speaker 1: you know, um, purposeful dose and you were monitored and 872 00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:02,480 Speaker 1: he said, it's working like crazy. So it's interesting to 873 00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:05,440 Speaker 1: see some of these things we've associated with, you know, 874 00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:08,759 Speaker 1: unfairly even maligned substances that are starting to be kind 875 00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:10,799 Speaker 1: of like taking a little more seriously, Well, I think 876 00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,440 Speaker 1: it comes back to the idea of change, that like, 877 00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:18,440 Speaker 1: these are substances that, when used properly, can induce positive 878 00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:21,960 Speaker 1: change in individuals, and if they can make those changes 879 00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:24,640 Speaker 1: in individuals, then perhaps they can make those changes in 880 00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:27,400 Speaker 1: the culture as well. I mean, that's one of the 881 00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:29,319 Speaker 1: reasons that people have to have such hope for then 882 00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:31,359 Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons that the establishment was so 883 00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:35,120 Speaker 1: fearful of them. Uh. And hopefully our future will be 884 00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:39,040 Speaker 1: defined more by hope than fear. Uh. That's that's what 885 00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:42,480 Speaker 1: I'm hoping for. Well said, Well said, And we want 886 00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:46,440 Speaker 1: to hear from you off the record or on what 887 00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:52,760 Speaker 1: is your take? What is your perspective on hallucinogenic substances, psychedelics, 888 00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:58,279 Speaker 1: psilocybin and specific do you feel that your opinion has 889 00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:02,880 Speaker 1: changed over time? And so in which direction you can 890 00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:06,319 Speaker 1: let us know. We're we're all over the internet. We 891 00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:08,799 Speaker 1: want to make it easy for you to speak with us. 892 00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:13,000 Speaker 1: If you don't feel like the social needs and Facebook, 893 00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:16,719 Speaker 1: Instagram and Twitter or not your particular bag of badgers, 894 00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:19,560 Speaker 1: you can call us directly. We have a phone number, 895 00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:23,960 Speaker 1: yes one eight three three st d W y t 896 00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:26,879 Speaker 1: K and If you want to access our overmind our 897 00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:30,040 Speaker 1: over mind, you can go to Here's where it Gets Crazy. 898 00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:32,719 Speaker 1: That's our Facebook group. That place, in particular, you'll be 899 00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:36,000 Speaker 1: able to have a conversation with other conspiracy realists and 900 00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:39,000 Speaker 1: listeners slide in there some from time to time as well, 901 00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:41,160 Speaker 1: knowing that's correct. If you don't want to do any 902 00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:43,640 Speaker 1: of that stuff, just send us a good old fashioned email. 903 00:53:43,719 --> 00:54:05,720 Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at iHeart radio dot com. Y Stuff 904 00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:07,360 Speaker 1: They Don't Want You to Know is a production of 905 00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:10,239 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from 906 00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:13,320 Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 907 00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:15,240 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.