WEBVTT - SYSK Selects: A Podcast on Zoot Suits? Yes 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:03.760 M Hey everybody, it's me Josh, your old pal, and 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:06.840 for this week's s Y s K Select, I've chosen 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:11.200 our episode on zoot suits. It is a fascinating overlooked 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:14.520 piece of history about how clothes can mean so much 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:17.680 more than just what's keeping the elements off of you 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:21.560 or keeping your modesty intact. Plus, listen up for a 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:25.800 surprise appearance by Mystery Science Theater three thousand. It is 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:32.479 quite surprising. Enjoy. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:41.000 production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, and 0:00:41.040 --> 0:00:44.000 welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:47.760 Chuckers Bryant. And since two of us are sitting together 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:53.280 again and it's not lunchtime, um, it's leg wrestling time. 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:57.360 That's true. This means it's a stuff you should know? Right? Yeah, 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:00.560 what's up to? How are you? Josh? I'm good. We 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:03.000 just got something in today that I want to give 0:01:03.040 --> 0:01:06.760 a shout out of banks for to our friend Martin 0:01:06.840 --> 0:01:09.800 van Nostran. Did that come in today today? Okay? He 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:12.880 kept emailing us, pestering me has it not come yet? 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:16.240 Like I like, I'm the Postmaster general or something like that. 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:18.840 But anyway, He sent us each a T shirt and 0:01:19.240 --> 0:01:23.199 the new CD of his band. The Bangalore's in Vitro 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:26.720 Meat is the name of the album, and it's pretty awesome. 0:01:27.959 --> 0:01:29.400 I haven't listened to it yet. I just got it, 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:31.679 can't wait. He sent us some some songs off of 0:01:31.720 --> 0:01:35.880 it already, some previous cuts. Yeah, he was the first 0:01:35.880 --> 0:01:38.800 person to record a stuff you should know song like 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:41.640 in two thousand eight you remember, well, Yeah, and I 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:44.480 think he has a toxic plasmosis song on the new one, 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:46.800 right he does. Yeah, we've inspired a lot. I think 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:49.400 he released a whole album of stuff you should know 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:52.480 songs really yeah, and like quick little punk songs to 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:54.440 like a minute and a half. So there's like fifty 0:01:54.520 --> 0:01:57.360 of them. But anyway, thanks a lot to Van Nostrin. 0:01:57.400 --> 0:01:59.040 We won't say his real name, but we know it. 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:02.000 We do finally, we didn't for a long time. But anyway, 0:02:02.040 --> 0:02:04.600 if you feel like checking that out, it's um. The 0:02:04.680 --> 0:02:07.800 Bangalore's like the city in India and the album is 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:11.040 in vitro meat. And we'll probably get in trouble for 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:15.680 endorsing this, so Chuck, you want to get to it? Yes, 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:20.480 have you ever heard of some dumb laws? Yeah? Man, 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:23.080 there are some dumb laws in this great land of ours. 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:27.839 For example, if I may have prepared a shortlist. In Alabama, 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:33.359 bear wrestling matches are prohibited. It's illegal to sell peanuts 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:37.519 in Lee County after sundown on Wednesday. It would be 0:02:37.600 --> 0:02:40.240 Lee County, Alabama. Did you give a reason for that one? No, 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:42.880 there are some This is from I think dumb laws 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:47.040 dot com and um. They have like just international laws, 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:50.440 state laws, local laws, and then under some of them 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:52.440 they have like full text of the law or why 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:56.240 this law exists. It's pretty comprehensive sit Um. In Hawaii, 0:02:56.560 --> 0:02:59.000 coins are not allowed to be placed in one's ears 0:02:59.560 --> 0:03:02.960 for spec ending only. Um. All residents may be find 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:05.680 as a result of not owning a boat. You're going 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:08.760 to Hawaii tomorrow right or a couple of days. I 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:10.480 dare you to put a coin in your ear and 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:14.560 walk around like I don't own a boat. I don't 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:19.080 own a boat. Chumps um back in our fair state 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:22.000 of Georgia. To legally use profanity in front of a 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:24.360 dead body which lies in a funeral home or in 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:28.480 a corner's office, that's respectful. That's a good law. Okay. 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:31.720 Um in Ackworth, which is close to Kennesaw, where I 0:03:31.720 --> 0:03:34.480 grew up, where you had to own a gun. I 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:37.480 didn't know this. In Acworth, all citizens must own a rake. 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:42.520 Really yeah, not a blower? A rake? I think a blower. 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:44.440 That's kind of like asking a lot of some some 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:48.720 of the lower income classes, you know. Um, In Athens 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:52.160 on Mondays it's illegal for one to whistle very loudly 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:58.800 after eleven pm. What but on Monday's. And then California, 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:00.720 of course is going to have some zany lass They 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:04.360 have tons and tons of wacky dumb laws. Animals are 0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:08.000 banned from mating publicly within feet of a tavern, school 0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:11.240 or place of worship. That I agree. When women may 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:16.920 not drive in a housecoat too, and Fresno, getting drunk 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:19.919 in a playground is against the law, that is sound. 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:23.000 I don't agree with that one. That's sensible. Uh. And 0:04:23.120 --> 0:04:26.839 then in Los Angeles it's illegal to wear a zoot suit. 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:32.480 Yeah still still so I bring that up. And I 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:35.760 knew chuck with like that last one, because I'm sure 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:38.280 there's stories behind almost all of those zany laws, or 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:40.920 at least there's some reasoning people don't just make up 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:44.720 crazy laws like bear wrestlings. I'm sure, it got out 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:46.360 of hand once and now they're just like, that's it. 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:50.480 It's illegal. So Chuck and I actually know the reason 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:54.560 why zoot suits are illegal in Los Angeles County, California, 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:56.680 and we're going to tell you about it today. It's 0:04:56.680 --> 0:04:59.600 pretty neat. This little article started off as a bit 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:03.480 of a uh a lark. I don't know, but we 0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:06.240 thought zoot suits. Those are interesting and cool. But it's 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:08.840 more than a suit, as it turns out, it really is. 0:05:08.960 --> 0:05:11.320 It was at least you should probably mention, like, what 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:14.880 is a zoot suit, Chuck. Everybody's seen them before. Yeah, 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:17.480 back in the nineteen thirties. Uh, they were very much 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:21.360 in fashion, especially in uh in uh Latino communities, in 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:24.919 African American communities coast to coast though. Yeah, it seems 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:29.720 like uh, Caesar Chavez, Malcolm X, Cab Callaway, big band leaders, 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:33.400 the jazz scene in New York all very much associated 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:36.479 with zoot suits. Tom Cat from Tom and Jerry, Yeah, 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:39.440 who was going after a girl and she said he 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:41.760 was a square and was corny and he goes out 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:44.640 and gets some a zoot suit and becomes a cool cat, 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:48.000 cool cat. Yeah, so you'll know a zoot suit. They 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:51.520 were originally worn made of wool and then later rayon. 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:54.080 But you'll know it because they're very distinct. They have 0:05:55.240 --> 0:06:00.760 very broad, padded shoulders, very long waisted coats. Uh. Suit 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:03.360 pants were worn really really high, like up over the 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:06.680 belly and uh, we're very tight at the top, then 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:10.360 ballooned out like mc hammer style and then tapered back 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:13.760 down again at the ankle or were pegged. Oh of course, yeah, 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:19.279 that's how you achieved that look. And um, the jackets 0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:22.520 exaggerated contours and colors. A lot of times they would 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:25.960 wear the big pocket watch chain that went down to 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:28.320 their knee and the hat with a feather, and it 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:32.840 was shoes, pointy shoes. Sure, um so they if it 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:37.400 sounds a lot like um, pimps, seventies pimps. Yeah, where 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:39.240 to you? Not too far off? I guess I think 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:41.320 you could make an argument that it was a predecessor 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:43.560 of that. And in fact, you mentioned Malcolm X favorite 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:46.520 ZOOS suits. I didn't realize this today, but in researching 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:49.440 zo suits, Malcolm X used to be called Detroit Red, 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:53.480 who was in fact a pimp. Yeah, and he apparently 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:58.240 got his education in Harlem and became Malcolm X. Did 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:01.240 you not see the movie? No, it was good. From 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:03.960 what I remember from the awesome Spike Lee movie was 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:08.000 that he was into the zoot scene earlier. And then 0:07:08.080 --> 0:07:12.200 once he you know, became Malcolm X and uh not, 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:15.280 what was his original name, Shabaz? Yes, I believe so 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:18.280 Malcolm Shabaz. So once he became Malcolm X and got 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:21.440 serious about the civil rights, he ditched the zoot suit 0:07:21.480 --> 0:07:24.720 and stuff and a little more traditionally garbed right. Um, 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:28.200 another way, So the zoos suit you you just nailed 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:29.960 it on the head. You said, the zoos suit scene. 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:32.200 It was very much part of a scene, part of 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:35.160 the Harlem renaissance. Um. It was part of the pacho 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:40.480 scene out in Los Angeles, which we'll talk about. Pacho, Pacho, pachuco, pachuco. 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:47.480 I used, I like slang on top of slang, pacho. Um. 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:51.680 And so it was kind of the uniform of this 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:55.600 certain kind of scene, apparently the upscale black nightclubs of Harlem. 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:59.480 Like if if you saw an African American man walking 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:01.680 around where in a zoot suit, you're like, that guy 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:04.160 is a high roller and he knows how to get 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:06.720 into the good clubs. I thought you were gonna bust 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:09.920 out some Cab Callaway slang. Well, you mentioned Cab Callaway 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:12.960 was one of the the people who love zoos suits, 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:18.040 and he wrote a dictionary of slang, of jive slang. 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:22.320 Thank you. I could not be square if I tried um, 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:24.800 And one of the one of the words that he 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:29.600 put down was zoot which he says means exaggerated. It 0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:32.280 turns out that there's a whole lot of mystery surrounding 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:35.360 the origins of zoot suit. But if I may, in 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:39.959 Cab Callaway's jive slang, describe what a zoot suit looks like, 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:43.760 you did a great job in normal, square, corny terms. 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:46.760 But if you want to talk like a hepcat from 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:50.959 the jive jump zoot suit era, you would describe it 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:53.920 as a killer dealer coat with a drape shape, real 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:57.959 pleats and shoulders padded like a lunatic cell. Well, it's 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:01.120 interesting that he said drape because originally they were known 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:06.120 as drape suits and even advertised as extreme quote extreme 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:10.880 drapes in newspapers. Yeah pretty cool. Yeah, So the zoosus 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:14.160 hanging out there, it's kind of weird. Ralph Ellison wrote 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:17.320 about UM wrote about it in as an Invisible Man. 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:23.760 His novel The Narrator encounters um three young and extravagantly 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:27.839 dressed blacks in their zoos suits, and he says that 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:32.520 they were the stewards of something uncomfortable. So he's saying, like, 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:35.360 there's just it's almost like it was. It's the same 0:09:35.400 --> 0:09:37.520 as if you're if you saw a bunch of raid 0:09:37.640 --> 0:09:41.200 kids wearing like the stupid pants yes in the nineties 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:43.839 or whatever, you know, or hip hop kids today, it 0:09:43.880 --> 0:09:45.599 was this. It was the same thing, except this was 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:50.280 much more upscale, right than that. But it was basically 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:53.760 lands today. Yeah, that people have trouble walking in, but 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:56.679 they're still gotta have that look, you know, right, because 0:09:56.679 --> 0:09:58.839 that's what the cool kids do exactly. So this was 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:05.600 you could would argue the original American version of counter 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:10.319 culture dress agreed, and it grew out of Harlem and 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:14.920 was later adopted by um Mexican Americans or Latino Americans 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:17.280 in Los Angeles. Yeah, what's this one bit that it 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:20.439 could have originated in Gainesville, Georgia? How about that? So yeah, 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:23.559 there's a lot of there's some origin stories, right, and yeah, 0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:25.000 and they're none of them are the same, right, and 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:27.199 they're all very different. No, but I do like that 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:29.640 when you're talking about from Gainesville, what is it? Yeah? 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:33.600 They a man, a bus driver, I'm sorry, bust worker 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:37.000 named Clyde Duncan from New York. Um came back to 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:39.040 New York with one and said he bought it in Gainesville, Georgia, 0:10:39.640 --> 0:10:43.800 And allegedly, uh, he had been inspired by Gone with 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:46.559 the Wind and wanted to look like Rhet Butler and 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:48.840 so got a Taylor in Gainesville to make him this sing. 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:51.240 I'd like to go with that story. And well, the 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:53.360 New York Times put that story forth and they said 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:57.800 it basically on it quickly in and um that was 0:10:57.880 --> 0:11:00.720 the story for many many years until his oriens actually 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:03.079 started to put real effort and thought it into the 0:11:03.160 --> 0:11:07.400 zoot suits. Um, and they found that there It's possibly true, 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:11.520 but most likely uh, it came out of either guys 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:16.480 like Cab Callaway wearing them or guys like Cab Callaway 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:20.199 copying people in the jazz scene. And then you know 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:43.840 it basically going forth like that, asks good m H. Ultimately, 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:46.280 it seems that it did come out of this era, 0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:50.280 whether it was uh, this Clyde Duncan fella who had 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:53.199 the idea originally or whatever. You can basically say the 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:56.880 Harlem Renaissance. Zoot suits came out of that. And you know, 0:11:57.000 --> 0:11:59.960 I knew that. I did not know of its associate 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:04.439 Asian within the Latino and largely Mexican community. No, but 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:08.839 that's where like really started to It switched when it 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:11.679 hit the Latino American community. Before it was just like, 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:14.280 I'm wealthy, I can get into good clubs. I'm part 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:18.840 of this club scene in Harlem. Um. When it hit 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:26.240 Los Angeles and was taken up by the pachos Um Square, Uh, 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:29.719 it changed, it transformed, It turned into something political and 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:34.200 became ultimately a sign of defiance. Yeah. In the World 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:36.920 War Two, you know, everyone knows that there was there 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:39.880 was rationing going on everything from food to metals and 0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:45.120 ultimately wool and cloth. So wearing a zoot suit, which 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:51.760 required an abundance of cloth was deemed not patriotic because 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:55.120 you're basically flaunting, Hey, I don't care about the war effort. 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:56.959 I'm gonna wear my zoot suit. That's more important to me, 0:12:57.240 --> 0:13:00.640 right exactly. So. Um, In in the forties, the War 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:03.200 Production Board basically said we need to cut back all 0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:07.240 fabric use in the States by and to help you. 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:11.320 Here is the new American suit. It's streamline, it uses 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:15.600 less fabric. As long as you're making stuff according to these, um, 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:20.240 these sketches, your patriotic, you're American, You're within the law. Right. 0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:23.439 Uncle Sam wanted to squear tight clothes pretty much. And 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:25.200 if you think about if you look at the suits 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:29.360 in the fifties and sixties and after the forties, Um, 0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:33.719 the American the classic American suit is narrow, narrow cut, 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:37.160 the cuffs are high. Yeah. Um, so I wonder if 0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:39.880 that came out of I'm sure it did, but you 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:42.400 can take what they were saying a different way, and 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:45.199 that Uncle Sam's telling you to dress like this, and 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:49.920 everybody dressed like that. So zoos suits immediately became, um, 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:53.679 a symbol of defiance. Anybody who wore him was saying, 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:57.920 you know, up yours, Uncle Sam. Uh. And it was 0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:02.719 ultimately illegal to man facture or advertise as zoot suit 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:07.319 or anything that fell outside of those American suits. So incredibly, 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:12.080 bootleg and underground tailors grew up to make and sell 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:16.720 zoot suits, and at the same time, especially in Los Angeles, 0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:23.120 it had an association with UH gang activity, criminal activity 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:28.320 and thuggery, largely because of newspapers that would call them, 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:31.640 you know, zoot suitors committing crimes. They would you know, 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:35.960 label people in its particular clothing as being criminals. Essentially. Yeah, well, 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:38.960 racism is definitely nothing new in this country, and it 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:42.320 was um hot and heavy in the late thirties early 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:47.680 forties in Los Angeles among um it was mainly targeted, 0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:50.800 I think, toward Latino Americans, but it's not like African 0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:53.520 Americans didn't get the brunt of it as well. But 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:56.280 basically it was white people in California were like, hey, 0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:59.280 there's a lot of you these days, so you're making 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:02.960 us a little nervo us and um, you wearing the 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:06.080 zoots suit is easy to target. It just so happened 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:10.760 that the group that they were targeting was actually kind 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:14.560 of homogeneous people who wore zoos suits, kind of wore 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:18.000 them in defiance, but also identified themselves with them, right, 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:21.800 the pachos. It was a statement of independence, not necessarily 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:24.280 thumbing your nose at the United States, but just hey, 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:28.160 I'm independent, I'm Latino, I'm living in Los Angeles, and 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:32.840 this is our look. So the pachos, Yeah, the pachucos, 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:40.680 the pachos. I'm seeing pachos right here, Octavio pa said, pachos. Yeah, okay, Um, 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:45.520 So the pachos were it's They weren't an import from Mexico. 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:48.400 They were a real American hybrid. They were a second 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:54.240 generation UM Latino American kids who, ironically, because of the 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:57.680 war effort, were latch key kids. Their parents were off 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:01.360 working the night shift UM for war production and they 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:03.920 were basically left to them their own devices. They called 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:07.240 themselves twenty four hour orphans, the first latch key kids 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:11.720 and um. They were also arguably the first rebels, and 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:17.240 out of their emergence in America, UM came the whole 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:20.760 concept of juvenile delinquency. Yeah, I love that one quote 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:23.200 from Octavio pass Can I read that. He said the 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:26.720 zoot suit was a symbol of love and joy or 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:30.440 horror and loathing, an embodiment of liberty, of disorder, of 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:35.960 the forbidden. So it was the single fashion item was 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:41.680 at the same time asserting your independence and individuality as 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:45.440 well as what white folk saw as thumb in their nose, 0:16:45.760 --> 0:16:50.520 the white man. Basically, Um, and I guess that's exactly 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:52.760 what they were doing, because, as you said, like they 0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:56.800 weren't necessarily wearing the zoos suit as a statement. They 0:16:56.840 --> 0:16:59.760 weren't anti war protesters, but it was more like, you 0:16:59.840 --> 0:17:02.360 know what, I'm sick of you racist white people, and 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:05.399 I'm I'm not going to hide my identity. I'm not 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:07.720 going to try to blend in. I'm not going to 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:11.480 go back to my traditional roots from Mexico because I 0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:14.360 wasn't born here, but I'm not gonna, you know, join 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:18.080 the service and wear an American suit like like. So 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:23.639 this is this was the compromise, and it ticked white 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:28.920 people off like crazy, especially in Los Angeles. Yeah. Well, 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:32.000 at the time, in southern California, there was an enormous 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:36.040 presence of UM service manager who were waiting to ship 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:39.320 out to the Pacific Theater from California. Yeah, and they were, 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:42.480 you know, rubbing elbows with these guys that a lot 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:45.960 of people thought were gang members and zoot suitors, and 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:49.560 they rubbed elbows not in a very good way either, 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:53.600 which you know, ultimately led to the zoot Suit riots. 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:56.520 But there were some pretty striking events that led up 0:17:56.560 --> 0:17:59.760 to that NTE summer. So one of the things you 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:03.479 said you mentioned was that they were were getting negative press, right, 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:07.800 So people in zoos suits were associated with things like um. Uh, 0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:13.160 let me see quote. Um, the record already reveals killing 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:16.159 stabbings in cases of innocent women having been molested by 0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:20.119 zoot suit gangsters. That's from the Los Angeles Examiner. And 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:23.080 uh the article was titled police must clean up l 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:27.600 a hoodlumism, which is not a word, right, but so 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:31.280 so there's this joint effort of um just general racism 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:34.560 among whites in the in the general public UM, and 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:39.560 servicemen waiting to be deployed specifically, and the Los Angeles 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:43.480 media kind of fanning the flames, that's right. And then 0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:47.840 the Sleepy Lagoon murder happened. The Sleepy Lagoon case Sleepy Lagoon, 0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:51.560 Josh was the reservoir by the l A River. It's 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:54.840 not there anymore. Is that fascinting? It's like a plastics 0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:58.080 plant there now there's no reservoir. Yes, so don't go 0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:01.159 looking for it. Even though they said it's roughly it 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:05.720 was at fifty Slaws and Boulevard in Maywood. I know 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:07.000 where that is, actually. I think it's on the way 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:10.199 to the airport. Uh So the Sleepy Lagoon case. UM. 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:13.920 At the time, Mexican Americans were denied access to public 0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:16.840 pools and swimming holes and stuff like that, so they 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:21.000 used Sleepy Lagoon as a big hangout where they would 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:22.639 go and listen to music and swim and have a 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:29.720 good time. Um. In August to n uh, the body 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:33.440 of Jose Diaz was found at this reservoir. And what 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:36.720 I gathered there was a big party, like a big 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:39.800 house party, where a fight broke out and one guy 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:42.959 ended up getting killed. And as a result, they rounded 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:48.040 up three to four hundred Mexican American youths, had a 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:51.040 corrupt trial where they basically denied the many civil rights, 0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:54.600 cooked up evidence, had no evidence, had no physical evidence, 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:58.159 had no witnesses, nothing of the sort, and they basically 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:05.040 pinned that murder on twelve guys. Is that right? Nine kids? Yeah, 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:08.520 but they railroaded nine with no evidence that the guy 0:20:08.600 --> 0:20:12.800 had even been murdered. And eventually the Sleepy Lagoon Defense 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:15.680 Committee and the U. S. District Court of Appeals overturned 0:20:15.760 --> 0:20:20.119 that as a miscarriage of justice. Right, but the damage 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:22.879 was already done. Yeah, and his killer, incidentally, was never found. 0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:26.000 They never singled anyone out, which is sad. That's kind 0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:28.080 of lost a lot of times, I think. But at 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:29.640 the same time, you can't just cook up a case 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:32.119 against dudes that were there and say that they did 0:20:32.200 --> 0:20:36.119 it exactly. So Um. The press attention that the Sleepy 0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:41.439 Lagoon case received just fan the flames further and further. Um. 0:20:41.840 --> 0:20:47.000 And then uh in June no May of Yeah, that's 0:20:47.000 --> 0:20:49.320 when things really started to take a term for the worst. 0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:52.800 That's right, UM. I guess about a dozen servicemen I 0:20:52.880 --> 0:20:57.399 think Navy boys were um down in East l A. 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:01.119 And uh, a few of him approached some girls. One 0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:03.680 of them kept walking, and the one that kept walking 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:07.359 past a group of pouchos who were wearing zoot suits 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:11.800 and when when he passed um, one of them apparently 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:13.600 raised his hand and what the guy took as a 0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:17.520 threatening manner, So the serviceman grabbed his arm, and right 0:21:17.560 --> 0:21:20.159 after that everything went black because somebody knocked him over 0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:22.240 the back of his head with something and he fell 0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:25.239 and broke his jaw in two places. Okay, the other 0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:27.119 guy to see this, the other guy to see it, 0:21:27.200 --> 0:21:31.640 but before they even react, the the pouchos jump them, 0:21:32.240 --> 0:21:37.000 and these eleven other servicemen fight their way out and 0:21:37.520 --> 0:21:39.640 fight their way over to where the guy is laying 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:41.880 the guy with who's knocked out with the broken jaw 0:21:42.000 --> 0:21:44.760 and him and get him out of there. So this 0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:48.480 is not this is not bode well for um Mexican 0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:54.320 American white relations in Los Angeles. A few days after that, 0:21:55.119 --> 0:21:57.600 like revenge is on the mind of everybody after news 0:21:57.640 --> 0:21:59.800 of this gets out, Yeah, big time, especially in the 0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:02.600 mid military community. And basically sort of the same thing 0:22:02.680 --> 0:22:06.200 happened main Street East l A on June three eleven. 0:22:06.240 --> 0:22:10.560 Sailors got off a bus and there were words with 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:13.880 a gang of young Mexicans. And when I say gang, 0:22:14.280 --> 0:22:17.560 I should say group, and we shouldn't say necessarily Mexicans. 0:22:18.160 --> 0:22:21.399 The likelihood was that they were Mexicans and the authorities, 0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:25.240 but there they were Latino Americans, Okay. I tried to 0:22:25.240 --> 0:22:27.560 get to the whole bottom of the word Chicano as well. 0:22:28.600 --> 0:22:32.800 I know hispanic is from Ronald Reagan, is it? And 0:22:32.920 --> 0:22:36.240 it's basically it insinuates that everybody from Central or Latin 0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:39.520 America or South America comes from Hispaniola. Well, and what 0:22:39.640 --> 0:22:42.439 I found from Chicano was that it was a derogatory 0:22:42.600 --> 0:22:46.320 term early on, very negative, but it meant specifically Mexican 0:22:46.359 --> 0:22:50.680 American and then later I believe they some some of 0:22:50.720 --> 0:22:53.760 them chose to embrace that word and pride. Yeah there 0:22:53.840 --> 0:22:56.440 was sixties. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. I don't know where 0:22:56.440 --> 0:23:00.639 it stands today, so let's just say it as watched 0:23:02.440 --> 0:23:22.920 ska mm hmmm. So they ran into this group of 0:23:23.560 --> 0:23:27.680 young Latinos dressed in zoot suits, gotten an argument. The sailors, 0:23:27.720 --> 0:23:30.000 of course claimed that they were jumped, although it's unclear 0:23:30.040 --> 0:23:33.000 exactly how it started, and the l A p D 0:23:33.119 --> 0:23:36.560 responded and with a group of off duty officers and 0:23:36.680 --> 0:23:40.879 on duty officers, officers calling themselves the Vengeance Squad, and 0:23:41.119 --> 0:23:44.680 they basically took it upon themselves to clean up the 0:23:44.760 --> 0:23:48.040 streets of East l A to the cops rough house style. 0:23:48.480 --> 0:23:52.120 The cops, including off duty cops, took on the name 0:23:52.280 --> 0:23:57.040 the Vengeance Squad and went down to the Latin American Quarters, 0:23:57.240 --> 0:24:00.440 Latino American Quarters and just started beating people up. Yeah, 0:24:00.480 --> 0:24:02.760 and this really really set off what would be known 0:24:02.960 --> 0:24:06.080 as the zoot Suit Riots. The next day, on June four, 0:24:06.800 --> 0:24:10.520 about two hundred U. S. Navy servicemen jumped in a 0:24:10.600 --> 0:24:13.880 bunch of taxis went to East l A. And a caravan, Yeah, 0:24:13.880 --> 0:24:18.440 and a caravan like a mob essentially and started beating 0:24:18.560 --> 0:24:22.280 up Mexican kids, twelve and thirteen year old boys, clubbing them, 0:24:22.640 --> 0:24:25.280 stripping them of their clothes, burning their clothes those That 0:24:25.400 --> 0:24:27.639 was the first group they encountered, and a bunch of 0:24:27.680 --> 0:24:30.920 adults tried to intervene. They got Club two. Then after that, 0:24:31.240 --> 0:24:33.600 it wasn't just people wearing zoot suits. It was any 0:24:33.720 --> 0:24:37.320