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Speaker 1: Hey, Daniel, am I remembering correctly that your kids are

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Speaker 1: almost in college?

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Speaker 2: That's right, they're in high school, so college is just

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Speaker 2: around the corner.

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, it goes so fast.

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Speaker 1: Do they want to stay close to home or are

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Speaker 1: they needing a little distance from their parents?

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Speaker 2: Well, the oldest wants to be far enough away that

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Speaker 2: we can't pop into surprising.

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Speaker 3: So how far is that?

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Speaker 1: Are we talking like a long car drive one stayed

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Speaker 1: over a whole country.

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Speaker 2: This is the loophole my wife is relying on because

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Speaker 2: she's willing to travel a long way to just pop

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Speaker 2: in on somebody.

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Speaker 1: Ah right, So maybe they need to consider like universities

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Speaker 1: in Australia.

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Speaker 2: I'm wondering if Elon Musk is going to build a

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Speaker 2: university on Mars, they might be able to attend.

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Speaker 1: You know, he's got enough kids to fill the first

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Speaker 1: class of students by himself.

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Speaker 2: And if your dad, nowhere in the Solar system, is

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Speaker 2: far enough away.

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Speaker 4: Hi, I'm Daniel.

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Speaker 2: I'm a particle physicist and a professor at UC Irvine,

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Speaker 2: and I was definitely ready to leave home when it

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Speaker 2: was time to go to college.

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Speaker 3: I'm Kelly Wiener Smith.

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Speaker 1: I'm adjunct at Rice University, and I also was ready

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Speaker 1: to go when I started college. California was not far

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Speaker 1: enough from Ohio, but I stuck with that.

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Speaker 2: And Welcome to the podcast. Daniel and Jorge explain the Universe,

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Speaker 2: in which we take your mind to new locations to

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Speaker 2: explore new ideas and think about living in other places,

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Speaker 2: where we download the entire workings of the universe into

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Speaker 2: your little brain. My friend and co host Jorge isn't

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Speaker 2: here today, but I'm very glad to be joined by Kelly. Hi, Kelly,

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Speaker 2: thanks again for joining us.

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Speaker 3: Hey, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I think that maybe we should change

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Speaker 1: the introduction to my friend and co host Toorge isn't

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Speaker 1: available today, but my friend and co host Kelly is.

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Speaker 1: I want to be upgraded to friend and co host status.

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Speaker 2: You're definitely a friend and a co host, an a

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Speaker 2: fellow scientist, and a colleague, absolutely all those things.

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Speaker 3: Oh what a great day for me.

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Speaker 4: You were in all the prizes.

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Speaker 2: And you're also a great person to be talking to

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Speaker 2: about today's topic about casting not just our minds, but

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Speaker 2: maybe our bodies and our lives and our families out

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Speaker 2: of the little envelope of the Earth and into the

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Speaker 2: Solar System and maybe even the rest of the universe, and.

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Speaker 3: Not just the places that you usually think of.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about settling places that I think of as

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Speaker 1: maybe some of the worst places in space. But there

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Speaker 1: are people who disagree with me. So the question today

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Speaker 1: is could humans live on Venus?

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Speaker 4: That's right.

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Speaker 2: You might be wondering why anybody ever lives anywhere other

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Speaker 2: than the best place on Earth, otherwise known as southern California.

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Speaker 2: But for some reason, humans do live in the northern

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Speaker 2: reaches of Norway and the hottest deserts on Earth, and

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Speaker 2: so humans do seem to have this appetite for living

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Speaker 2: in crazy places, maybe even on Venus. So we went

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Speaker 2: out there to ask our audience if they thought it

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Speaker 2: was possible for humans to live on Venus. If you

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Speaker 2: would like to participate in this audience answer segment for

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Speaker 2: future episodes, please don't be shy. Write to me two

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Speaker 2: questions at Danielandthorge dot com and I'll put you on

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Speaker 2: the list. So think about it for a minute before

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Speaker 2: you hear these answers. Do you think humans could live

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Speaker 2: on Venus? Here's what people had to say. It might

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Speaker 2: be possible for us to live on Venus. But obviously

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Speaker 2: we've made protection from the extreme pressure, temperature, radiation, and

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Speaker 2: poisonous gases.

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Speaker 5: I guess in the ice caps in the northern region,

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Speaker 5: but we'd be vaporized before we got there, correct, So

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Speaker 5: yes and no.

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Speaker 6: Well, just today I heard that Venus is a sister

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Speaker 6: planet to planet Earth. So for that reason, I'd say, PEPs.

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Speaker 7: Humans could live on Venus if we could construct a

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Speaker 7: strong enough structure. Oh look, never say never, that's my motto.

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Speaker 8: Okay, So obviously humans could not live on the surface

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Speaker 8: of Venus. We don't know any life that could manage

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Speaker 8: that pressure and temperature. But there's definitely a habitable zone

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Speaker 8: up in the atmosphere kind of best bin like a

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Speaker 8: cloud city style where we kind of have like balloon

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Speaker 8: or other floating habitats, and there's possibility there. Is it

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Speaker 8: worth pursuing. I think everything's worth pursuing. Spend more money

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Speaker 8: on science.

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Speaker 6: There's no way you can live on Venus and be

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Speaker 6: a human unless you have some insanely good air conditioning

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Speaker 6: system because it's hundred degrees there absolutely not for three

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Speaker 6: reasons crushing air pressure, extreme air toxicity, and extreme heat.

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Speaker 2: Humans could live pretty high up in Venus kind of

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Speaker 2: like the Jetsons, maybe a balloon city or something like

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Speaker 2: that on surface, no, further out, no, but somewhere in

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Speaker 2: the middle of the clouds.

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Speaker 4: So what do you think of these answers, Kelly?

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Speaker 1: I think that the listeners who said never say never,

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Speaker 1: which was an interesting, you know, repetition in the answers,

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Speaker 1: are really going to like the guests that we have

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Speaker 1: on the show today.

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Speaker 2: I think there's a wonderful optimism there, you know, the

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Speaker 2: sense that problems that seemed impossible ten years ago or

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Speaker 2: fifty years ago might be solvable now. And the humans

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Speaker 2: are just so ingenious and always coming up with new solutions,

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Speaker 2: which means that places that used to be impossible to

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Speaker 2: imagine living might eventually one day be like cozy and comfortable.

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Speaker 3: Maybe. Who knows.

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Speaker 1: Humans like to dream big, and on today's show, we've

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Speaker 1: got a pretty big dreamer.

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Speaker 2: I mean, why do you think humans like to dream big?

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Speaker 4: Kelly?

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Speaker 2: You wrote a whole book on this where you were

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Speaker 2: not exactly you know, in favor of space colonization in

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Speaker 2: the near term. Why do you think it captures the imagination?

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Speaker 2: What are the motivations for everybody casting their ideas and

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Speaker 2: maybe even their families and their descendants out past the

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Speaker 2: comforts of Earth.

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Speaker 1: To be honest, I've been asked this question a lot,

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Speaker 1: and I don't think I will ever have a perfect answer.

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Speaker 1: But I think it's because we all think different things

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Speaker 1: are awesome, you know, Like like I have a vodka

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Speaker 1: bottle filled with tapeworms from a road killed porcupine on

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Speaker 1: my desk and I think that's awesome and I like

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Speaker 1: looking at it sometimes. And there are some people who

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Speaker 1: think it would be awesome to move to space, and like,

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Speaker 1: I can totally get both of those things.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I think humans we find our little niches that we

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Speaker 1: think are awesome and we want to go, and space

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Speaker 1: is particularly inspirational, you know. I think most of us,

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Speaker 1: you and I talk on the show all the time

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Speaker 1: about looking up at the stars and all the big

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Speaker 1: thoughts that makes us have and how small it makes

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Speaker 1: us feel. And yeah, I don't think I have a

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Speaker 1: really good answer, but I think just you know, it's

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Speaker 1: kind of awesome, and that's a good enough. He's going

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Speaker 1: to do a lot of things as long as it

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Speaker 1: doesn't hurt anyone else.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think it would be awesome.

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Speaker 2: If all the tapeworms on Earth were evicted and sent

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Speaker 2: to space, Daniel, bands are too awesome.

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Speaker 1: No, No, I am so glad you don't have any

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Speaker 1: power over these things, Daniel.

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Speaker 3: They have to say here where people like me can

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Speaker 3: study them.

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Speaker 2: All Right, Well, we have a fun expert to talk

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Speaker 2: to today who knows a lot about what it might

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Speaker 2: be like to live outside of the Earth's comfort zone,

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Speaker 2: out in space and maybe even in the atmosphere of Venus.

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Speaker 8: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So, our guest today is Guiermo Sunline. I've had the

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Speaker 1: pleasure of meeting Guermo in person. We've chatted virtually a

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Speaker 1: couple times. He's a really fun guy to talk to.

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Speaker 1: He's got big ideas. He was an officer in the

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Speaker 1: US Marine Corps. He got an AB in economics from

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Speaker 1: UC Berkeley and a jd from the UC College of

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Speaker 1: Law in San Francisco. He's an explorer, an entrepreneur, and

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Speaker 1: a philanthropist. And today we're going to talk to him

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Speaker 1: about a space venture studio he's working on called Humans

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Speaker 1: to Venus, where their goal is to get a thousand

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Speaker 1: people living in the Venusian atmosphere by twenty fifty and

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of challenges with that goal, but Ghermo's

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Speaker 1: the right person to be working on it, so let's

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Speaker 1: talk to him about why he thinks this is a

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Speaker 1: good plan for humanity.

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Speaker 2: I'm skeptical, but fascinated. Let's do it same.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to the show, Girmo. We're excited to have you here.

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Speaker 6: Hey, thanks for having me. Looking forward to it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, me too.

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Speaker 1: So you and I have met Irl once and it

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Speaker 1: was a lot of fun, So I'm excited to be

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Speaker 1: chatting with you again about all of your awesome Venus stuff.

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Speaker 1: You are the only person I've ever talked to who

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Speaker 1: made me think that maybe Venus isn't quite best bad.

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Speaker 3: But we'll get there. Okay.

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Speaker 1: So we're talking about settling space, and so first let's

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Speaker 1: talk about why space is so hard to settle. So

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Speaker 1: humans are like super well adapted to life on Earth.

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Speaker 1: What are some challenges that space poses to the human body?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, geez, where to start with that? I mean you

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Speaker 6: know this from writing your book, right, I mean, first

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Speaker 6: of all, we're adapted to our gravity here on Earth,

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Speaker 6: which I'm sure we'll come back to in a minute

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Speaker 6: here talking about Venus. Then we've got the protection of

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Speaker 6: our atmosphere. So we've got both the breathable air that

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Speaker 6: we take for granted as we take our breaths every day,

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Speaker 6: plus keeping us nice and cozy and warm from the

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Speaker 6: cold of space and at the same time keeping us

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Speaker 6: from getting fried by the sun, which is basically this

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Speaker 6: big star that we're just living very close to. So yeah, geez,

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Speaker 6: where to start. I mean, on top of all that,

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Speaker 6: obviously we have to eat and drink water, which is

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Speaker 6: easy to get relatively speaking, here on Earth, and it

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Speaker 6: gets harder as you leave Earth. So one of the

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Speaker 6: things that I always say is I think people that

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Speaker 6: work in space or work at trying to get humans

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Speaker 6: into space are probably some of the biggest environmentalists and

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Speaker 6: conservation because they have a true appreciation for how important

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Speaker 6: Earth is for the human body and how well, as

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Speaker 6: you said, how well adapted we are to Earth, and

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Speaker 6: how ill adapted we are to basically living anywhere else.

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Speaker 6: So it is our precious, our precious homeworld. We got

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Speaker 6: to take care of it.

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Speaker 1: I was surprised at how many people in the space

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Speaker 1: community are environmentalists who are really interested in sustainability, because

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Speaker 1: I think that when I, as.

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Speaker 3: An ecologist, talk to my friends.

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Speaker 1: A lot of them would be like, oh, but the

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Speaker 1: space people, they don't care about Earth. They just want

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Speaker 1: to dump it and leave it behind and go leave

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Speaker 1: somewhere else. But that has not at all been my

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Speaker 1: experience with the community since interacting with you all.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I think I think that's one of the frustrating things,

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Speaker 6: you know, as you're dealing with the media or the

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Speaker 6: general public, or even friends and family, right they're like,

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Speaker 6: you know, why are you trying to leave Earth? We

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Speaker 6: have so many problems here on Earth. It's like, yeah,

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Speaker 6: I know, but you know, it's also the best way

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Speaker 6: to draw attention to those problems on Earth and help

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Speaker 6: find solutions for them. So at least for some people,

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Speaker 6: it's the best way for you know, for people like

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Speaker 6: me and maybe you, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I think it's really interesting that you comment that humans

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Speaker 2: are well adapted to Earth but ill adapted anywhere else,

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Speaker 2: because one of the things I think about for human

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Speaker 2: adaptation is how amazing it is that we've been able

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Speaker 2: to live in so many different environments, Like what else

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Speaker 2: other than you know, bacteria can adapt to like really

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Speaker 2: cold and really warm and really wet and really dry,

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Speaker 2: and we've built cities basically everywhere on the Earth except

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Speaker 2: maybe Antarctica. Is that just because we're considering a pretty

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Speaker 2: narrow range of habitats compared to like the extraordinary radiation

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Speaker 2: and dryness and wetness and insanity of space.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, that's exactly as you were saying that, That's exactly

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Speaker 6: what I was going to say. You know, it is

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Speaker 6: such a narrow band relatively speaking. You know, the temperatures

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Speaker 6: is a big one, right, you mentioned you know, the

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Speaker 6: hottest place on Earth and the coldest place on Earth

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Speaker 6: range wise is nothing compared let's say to the excid

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Speaker 6: or light side of the Moon, or you know, day

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Speaker 6: or night on Mars. And so it is a very

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Speaker 6: narrow range. And again kind of focusing on the core

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Speaker 6: advantage of Venus, all of that is still within one

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Speaker 6: G of gravity. So even if you think about even

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Speaker 6: astronauts in low Earth orbit, they're still experiencing one g

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Speaker 6: of gravity. The reason they float is because they're constantly

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Speaker 6: falling off Earth in response to the one G of gravity.

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Speaker 6: But even that, we're still within one G of gravity.

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Speaker 6: Or even if you think about pressure, atmospheric pressure. As

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Speaker 6: you know, I've done work underwater taking humans underwater in

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Speaker 6: subs and going from the surface of the Earth, let's

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Speaker 6: say at sea level, where you have one atmosphere of

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Speaker 6: atmospheric pressure, and go into space to the vacuum of space,

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Speaker 6: it's a change of only one atmosphere. Going underwater, it's

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Speaker 6: a change of one atmosphere every thirty three feet roughly

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Speaker 6: ten meters going down, because you've got the way to

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Speaker 6: the atmosphere on top of you, plus you have the

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Speaker 6: weight of the water on top of you. But we

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Speaker 6: don't live underwater, and right now, we don't live in

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Speaker 6: the vacuum of space, and so even atmospheric pressure wise,

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Speaker 6: we're really only in a very narrow range from sea

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Speaker 6: level to maybe you know, some high altitude and that's

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Speaker 6: about it.

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Speaker 2: So basically Earth is like the southern California of the

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Speaker 2: Solar system. You know, we say we have seasiness, but

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Speaker 2: really it's not winter.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, it's always sixty eight in sunny.

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Speaker 2: You know, So then why should we ever leave It

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Speaker 2: seems great here?

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Speaker 6: Well, you know, it's funny. I just had that. I've

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Speaker 6: had that discussion several times, and I just had it

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Speaker 6: last week with a couple of students that I'm mentoring.

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Speaker 6: You know about why should we leave? And the short

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Speaker 6: answer I think is we should never leave, right. I mean,

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Speaker 6: if you think about it from a survival standpoint, survival

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Speaker 6: instinct standpoint, if you're somewhere comfortable and it's not dangerous

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Speaker 6: to you, and it's got water and air and food,

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Speaker 6: and you know, why would you ever leave? And the

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Speaker 6: thing is, I kind of look at this like in

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Speaker 6: nature when you look at an ant colony or a

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Speaker 6: bee hive. Right, once the queens have a good location

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Speaker 6: for their hive or their colony, they don't move the colony,

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Speaker 6: they don't move the hive, but they know that at

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Speaker 6: some point those circumstances may change and they may need

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Speaker 6: to move the colony and the hive. And so in

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Speaker 6: both cases they always have a small subset of the

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Speaker 6: colony or hive that is always going out and looking

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Speaker 6: at other places. You know, they're kind of, you know,

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Speaker 6: to use human terms, they're out exploring, you know, they

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Speaker 6: send scouts out in different places and they end up

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Speaker 6: losing a lot of ants and a lot of bees

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Speaker 6: in the process, but some of them make it back

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Speaker 6: and they convey information to the queens, and at some

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Speaker 6: point the queens make a decision that it's time to

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Speaker 6: move the colony or move the hive, and now they've

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Speaker 6: got some information, they and they actually do move them

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Speaker 6: for the survival of the colony or hive. I think,

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Speaker 6: to a certain extent, I think that's kind of what

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Speaker 6: driving a little bit of let's say Elon Musk looking

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Speaker 6: at Mars as a potential second home for humanity, is

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Speaker 6: that at some point we may decide we need to

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Speaker 6: move humanity somewhere, or at least a portion of humanity,

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Speaker 6: and by the time that day comes, it's going to

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Speaker 6: be too late to think about it, like we have

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Speaker 6: to have already, you know, taken some steps in that direction.

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Speaker 6: I think that's I think that's at the core of

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Speaker 6: what's driving someone like Elon to look at taking humanity

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Speaker 6: off planet. But I agree with you. I mean, until

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Speaker 6: something like that happens, like rationally, why would you ever

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Speaker 6: leave Earth?

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Speaker 1: Well, so that's why Elon wants to settle space. Why

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Speaker 1: do you want to settle space?

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Speaker 6: This is where it gets a little bit philosophical. But

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Speaker 6: going back to the ant and be analogy, I think genetically, psychologically,

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Speaker 6: I don't know, there's a small subset of Homo sapiens

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Speaker 6: that are wired the same way those scouts are in

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Speaker 6: the in the beehive or in the colony, and I

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Speaker 6: think I'm just wired that way. It's I think that's

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Speaker 6: also why within the explorer community, forget space for a second, right,

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Speaker 6: just the general explorer community. Like if you go to

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Speaker 6: the Explorers Club and talk to anybody there, any of

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Speaker 6: the members there, about the stuff that they're working on,

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Speaker 6: and they go some of the places Daniel was just

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Speaker 6: talking about, you know, the deserts, the polls, you know,

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Speaker 6: high altitudes. Probably the most common question that an explorer

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Speaker 6: gets asked is why, right, why are you doing this?

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Speaker 6: It just doesn't make sense. It seems it's counterintuitive, It

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Speaker 6: goes against your survival instinct to take a risk climbing

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Speaker 6: that mountain or doing whatever. And every explorer since you

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Speaker 6: get asked that question so often you come up with

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Speaker 6: an answer that you give, but it never feels like

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Speaker 6: a complete answer, It never feels like a fulfilling answer.

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Speaker 6: And I think if you talk to explorers, I think

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Speaker 6: at the core it's because they don't know really why

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Speaker 6: they're doing it. And I think the reason they don't

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Speaker 6: know why they're doing it is because they're just wired

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Speaker 6: that way. You know, they're just being themselves. That's one

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Speaker 6: question that explorers never ask each other. You never hear

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Speaker 6: an explorer. I remember at the Explorers Club ask another member, Hey,

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Speaker 6: why are you doing that? Like they already know that

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Speaker 6: the answer is, I don't know. It's because I'm being myself,

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Speaker 6: you know, and that's what I do.

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Speaker 2: It's like asking those ants what you're doing, and they're

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Speaker 2: just like, we're just anting.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, or at least the scouts, Yeah, they're just

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Speaker 6: doing what they think is right.

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Speaker 1: I like it, and I feel like, you know, the

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Speaker 1: parasitologists that I work with, no one is like, why

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Speaker 1: are you elbowed deep in.

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Speaker 3: Fish cuts for a worm? Just because we love the worms.

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Speaker 3: It's very different.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, okay, so where are we going to settle?

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Speaker 1: So that in my book, the two most commonplaces I

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Speaker 1: hear about people wanting to settle are rotating space stations,

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Speaker 1: where they argue that you can control so many different

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Speaker 1: aspects of your environment it's really great, and mores. So

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Speaker 1: I'd love to hear your takes on the pros and

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Speaker 1: cons of those two locations so that we can then

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Speaker 1: set up the even better option of Venus.

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Speaker 6: I'd love to see some sort of free floating, rotating

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Speaker 6: structure somewhere, kind of Oelian kind of future. I think

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Speaker 6: the big advantage to that one, obviously that everyone pushes

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Speaker 6: for it is you've got the artificial gravity, right. The

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Speaker 6: whole reason it's rotating is so that we we have

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Speaker 6: this artificial unji of gravity, which I think is a

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Speaker 6: big advantage obviously because I'm looking at Venus. But for

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Speaker 6: me as an explorer, what I like about that option

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Speaker 6: is that you can take that rotating ship and just

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Speaker 6: point it out on the exit on the off ramp

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Speaker 6: off the Solar System and just go. You know, it's

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Speaker 6: a one way trip, just go kind of like you know,

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Speaker 6: Star Trek, to boldly go where no one's gone before.

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Speaker 6: And I would love that if we have that built,

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Speaker 6: I'd sign up for that right now. But obviously the

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Speaker 6: con to that is just the cost is just enormous, right.

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Speaker 6: I Mean, the biggest engineering structure we've built as humanity

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Speaker 6: is the International Space Station, and that costs a huge

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Speaker 6: amount of money, took a lot of time, and it's

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Speaker 6: not nearly you know, the size that a big rotating,

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Speaker 6: kind of free floating station would have to be, or

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Speaker 6: for free floating community would have to be. So that's

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Speaker 6: the obvious con on that one.

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Speaker 2: Are you imagining something that's self sustaining? I mean, if

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Speaker 2: you're going to point this thing out of the Solar

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Speaker 2: System and needs to not rely on Earth's infrastructure, right,

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Speaker 2: are you talking about something at that scale where it's

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Speaker 2: like making its own food, et cetera.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, so yeah, So that's a great point, you know,

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Speaker 6: because then you've got the structure that's kind of a

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Speaker 6: free floating, rotating, rotating structure. But then you've got the

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Speaker 6: question of geography, like where are you going to put it?

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Speaker 6: And if you put that in orbit around Earth, that's fine.

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Speaker 6: If you've got it still within the Solar system, you know,

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Speaker 6: you can kind of still be dependent on Earth for

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Speaker 6: imports and potentially exports. But if you do what I

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Speaker 6: just suggested, which is just pointed out and just go yeah,

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Speaker 6: then you've got to make sure that thing's fully self sustaining.

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Speaker 6: And if you think about it, you know that's going

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Speaker 6: to require a lot of infrastructure and a lot of people,

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Speaker 6: you know, to really get to the point where that

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Speaker 6: society is as specialized as it needs to be to

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Speaker 6: put everything together.

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Speaker 1: And the letter recycling and redundancies. Yeah, it would be tough,

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Speaker 1: but awesome.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, my favorite. I'll tell you my mind got blown

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Speaker 6: of about a year ago. I'd heard this before, but

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Speaker 6: there's a YouTube video out that I watched over and

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Speaker 6: over again. Now I can never remember which economist it

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Speaker 6: was that that did this. Maybe as I tell you this,

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Speaker 6: you'll know which one it is. It's from like the

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Speaker 6: seventies where he holds up a pencil and he talks

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Speaker 6: about thinking about what it would take to build a

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Speaker 6: pencil from scratch, And if you think about it, it

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Speaker 6: takes like millions of people to build that number two pencil. Right,

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Speaker 6: If you just think about just the wood for the pencil, right,

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Speaker 6: requires a whole timber company, and you got to go

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Speaker 6: cut down the tree. Okay, but to do that you

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Speaker 6: need saws, So somebody's got to make the saws. And

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Speaker 6: for the saws, you're going to need metal. So someone's

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Speaker 6: going to need the metal for the blades for the saws,

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Speaker 6: and someone's going to have to build all that. And

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Speaker 6: if you think about that, the saws get made at

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Speaker 6: a factory, Well, someone's got to build the factory and

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Speaker 6: you got to power the factory. And now all of

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Speaker 6: a sudden you realize if you go through every single

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Speaker 6: nuance of that supply chain for that number two pencil,

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Speaker 6: it's millions of people that you need to get even

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Speaker 6: just to that number two pencil. You know, sometimes I'll

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Speaker 6: hold up I think, actually, Kelly, I may have even

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Speaker 6: done this when we last saw each other in Slovakia,

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Speaker 6: I held up a beer bottle and with someone I

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Speaker 6: was talking with, and I just pointed to the label.

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Speaker 6: Forget the bottle, forget the beer, just the label, the

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Speaker 6: printed label that goes on the beer bottle. You know,

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Speaker 6: if you think you know the paper that goes in that,

439
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,040
Speaker 6: the adhesive that goes in that, the paint that goes

440
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:51,520
Speaker 6: on that, the design, putting the label, and just getting

441
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,640
Speaker 6: that label ready, and then you think it takes millions

442
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:59,280
Speaker 6: of people just to even make that label. And in

443
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,679
Speaker 6: the world on Earth, I guess we just take a

444
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 6: lot for granted because we've got eight billion people, right

445
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,040
Speaker 6: and they're spread out everywhere, and we have so many

446
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:10,320
Speaker 6: people that we can specialize in these various areas. But

447
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,119
Speaker 6: when you think about trying to replicate that beer bottle

448
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,399
Speaker 6: label in space or as Daniel was saying, you know,

449
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,800
Speaker 6: in a free floating station that's going out toward outside

450
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,520
Speaker 6: the Solar System, you're not going to have millions of

451
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:27,160
Speaker 6: people to create all that. So that's that's where things

452
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,240
Speaker 6: get interesting, is when you know, we start going off planet,

453
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,720
Speaker 6: but we try making that community as self sustaining as possible.

454
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 6: And I think that's also a big premise of Kelly

455
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:38,240
Speaker 6: of your book, right, that we haven't thought through a

456
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,000
Speaker 6: lot of those things yet. We're so focused on, you know,

457
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 6: the technology and the science of getting humans off this planet,

458
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 6: but there's a lot of other stuff that we need

459
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,280
Speaker 6: to consider when we talk about doing that at scale.

460
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:53,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and those millions of people on Earth can just

461
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 1: go outside and take a big breath of fresh air,

462
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 1: and so you you know, those million people in space,

463
00:22:58,119 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 1: you also need to provide them the air they breathe.

464
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,560
Speaker 1: Everything down to that, it gets complicated.

465
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, it gets complicated in a hurry. So, Daniel, to

466
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,640
Speaker 6: one thing you were saying before, you know, a couple

467
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:10,360
Speaker 6: of years ago, I was talking with some friends. We

468
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 6: were talking about just kind of even trying to replicate

469
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 6: a community like that, like an off world community like that,

470
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,400
Speaker 6: just trying to replicate that here on earth. Right, if

471
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:21,919
Speaker 6: you just started, let's say you wanted to set up

472
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 6: a thousand people here on Earth to live somewhere remote

473
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 6: and be as self sufficient as possible. We realized, at

474
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,439
Speaker 6: least through the thought exercise, that the first people you

475
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 6: had to start with was the medical community, right, because

476
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,360
Speaker 6: you've got to make sure that these people don't die, right,

477
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 6: and that can stay healthy and then can reproduce and

478
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,680
Speaker 6: have kids and grow them into adulthood and all that.

479
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,159
Speaker 6: So you have to start with a medical community. And

480
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,400
Speaker 6: all of a sudden, we realized, man, this gets complicated

481
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:54,880
Speaker 6: in a hurry, because let's say you start with a hospital, right,

482
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,640
Speaker 6: But that hospital's got to be unlike any hospital you've

483
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 6: ever seen on Earth, because first of all, it has

484
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 6: to have every specialty, right. You got to have dentists,

485
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 6: you got to have oncologists, you got to have obstetricians

486
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 6: like cardio. You got to have everybody all in one hospital.

487
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 6: Number one. Number two, it's got to be a teaching

488
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,120
Speaker 6: hospital because you don't have medical schools that you can

489
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,199
Speaker 6: rely on, so you're going to have to teach the

490
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:21,680
Speaker 6: next generation of medical professionals that come up. Then it's

491
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,119
Speaker 6: also going to have to be its own pharmaceutical company,

492
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 6: because you're not going to be able to just order

493
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 6: drugs from a drug company to have them delivered there

494
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,440
Speaker 6: if you really want to be truly self sustaining, right,

495
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 6: So you're going to have to develop your own drugs there.

496
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 6: And you got to be a medical devices company because

497
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 6: if you're a dentist or an orthodonist in your drill breaks,

498
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 6: you can't just order another drill. You got to make one. Now,

499
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 6: all of that can be helped with modern robotics and

500
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,879
Speaker 6: AI and all sorts of stuff, but it still means

501
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,920
Speaker 6: that you need all that functionality all in that one hospital.

502
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 6: And if you think about that, that all of a sudden,

503
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:01,920
Speaker 6: you're getting i don't know, like three hundred people, four

504
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 6: hundred people, five hundred people at a minimum. And now

505
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 6: all those people have families, right, and all those families

506
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 6: have to live somewhere. Everyone's got to live somewhere, so

507
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 6: you need you know, houses and food and sewage and

508
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 6: water and security and all that stuff. It's hard to

509
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,879
Speaker 6: make a fully self sustaining society with only a thousand people.

510
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 6: So it's just crazy. Even just doing the thought exercise,

511
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 6: Even if the numbers are all off, you know, and

512
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 6: everything I just said, the premise still stands that it

513
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 6: gets complicated very quickly.

514
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 2: All Right, you convinced me I'm never leaving Southern California.

515
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:36,639
Speaker 2: I'm here to stay.

516
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:40,400
Speaker 6: Let me share an anecdote, and I don't think he'll

517
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 6: mind my my sharing this. So a few years ago,

518
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,920
Speaker 6: there's a group that was contemplating what it would take

519
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 6: to set up a permanent presence on the Moon. So

520
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 6: this was like eight years ago, nine years ago, and

521
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 6: at the time, this was the I think the third

522
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 6: organization in about a year that did these like workshops

523
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 6: where they would bring people together and just have them

524
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 6: talk about, you know, what would it take to set

525
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 6: up a you know, a permanent presence on the moon.

526
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:17,400
Speaker 6: And so this organization got twelve of us together in Chanuga,

527
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 6: Tennessee for a weekend and it was pretty good. They

528
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 6: brought people together that kind of understood space but came

529
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,440
Speaker 6: from different backgrounds. So you had, you know, a scientist,

530
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 6: an engineer, an entrepreneur, a marketer, a lawyer, like you

531
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 6: had different people. And the facilitators. The first thing they

532
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 6: did on the morning of the first day of this

533
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 6: weekend workshop is They went around and they how did

534
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,679
Speaker 6: everyone answer the same question, which is what would have

535
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 6: to be set up on the moon for you to

536
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 6: go visit there? Right, not even to go live there,

537
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 6: just to go visit there. And there were different answers

538
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 6: depending on you know, someone said, you know, I'm willing

539
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,120
Speaker 6: to go when they have the first music festival there,

540
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 6: because then that means that they've got enough infrastructure that

541
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 6: people could go and it's safe enough and all that.

542
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 6: One person said, you know, I'll go when they have

543
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 6: the first hotel there. You know, there were twelve people

544
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 6: in the room, the two ends of the spectrum. On

545
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 6: one end was me, I said, I'll be the first

546
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,640
Speaker 6: one there, like you send me. I don't care, there's

547
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 6: got to be nothing. That's fine. I'll go and I'll

548
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,159
Speaker 6: help set everything up for you guys, you know, to follow.

549
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:26,920
Speaker 6: The other end of the spectrum, interestingly enough, was Andy Aldrin, right,

550
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 6: so his dad was Buzz Aldrin, the second man to

551
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 6: walk on the Moon. And Andy surprised all of us

552
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 6: because he said exactly what Daniel just said. He says,

553
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,120
Speaker 6: I'm never going. It doesn't matter what you've got set

554
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,119
Speaker 6: up there, I'm never going. And he said, I like

555
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,439
Speaker 6: my air, I like my food, I like my water,

556
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,360
Speaker 6: I like my gravity, I like my radiation protection. I'm

557
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 6: staying right here. And first of all, it took us

558
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 6: all by surprise that some I don't know why. In

559
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 6: our minds, we just figured, well, the son of the

560
00:27:57,920 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 6: second Man walk on the Moon. Of course he's going

561
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 6: to want to go. And it surprised us that he

562
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 6: said no. And so we asked him, like, why do

563
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:08,679
Speaker 6: you have that, you know, this feeling, this opinion, And

564
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,680
Speaker 6: he said, precisely, because I grew up around astronauts. I

565
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 6: grew up with people who risk their lives leaving this planet.

566
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 6: I know how dangerous it is up there. I know

567
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 6: how rough it is. I know how you know, as

568
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 6: we were talking earlier, how well suited we are for Earth,

569
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 6: and like, why would I want to take that risk?

570
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 6: I'm perfectly happy being here. Now that was a few

571
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 6: years ago. I don't know if his mind's changed, but

572
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 6: the fact remained that, you know, the people that I

573
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 6: think are most aware of the risks of leaving this

574
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 6: planet sometimes they are the ones that, like, you know what,

575
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 6: I'm perfectly happy staying right here.

576
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 1: On that note, let's all take a break to think

577
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 1: about what it would take to convince us to go

578
00:28:49,160 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 1: to the Moon, and we'll be right back. So we're back,

579
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 1: and we are talking about settling space. So girmo, let's

580
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: quickly talk about Mars and why Mars is less good

581
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: in your mind than Venus, and then we're let's move

582
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 1: on to talking about Venus.

583
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 6: First of all, I'm not entirely convinced that Mars is

584
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 6: less good, because it depends on different parameters and why

585
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 6: you're going to where you're going. But each possible destination

586
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 6: in space has its drawbacks, right, It's got its pros

587
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 6: and cons, just like just like being here on Earth, right,

588
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 6: which is on the side, I was trying to figure

589
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 6: out where to live next, and every city on Earth

590
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 6: that I thought about living had its pros and cons,

591
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 6: and I couldn't make up my mind. So it's a

592
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 6: similar thing, I think. You know, the biggest advantage to Mars, obviously,

593
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 6: is just humans are used to walking on hard surfaces,

594
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 6: and you know, so landing on the Moon and landing

595
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 6: on Mars makes sense, which is the drawback, by the way,

596
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 6: to the free floating stations we were talking about earlier.

597
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 6: That's almost like being on a cruise ship stuck out

598
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 6: in the middle of the ocean, as opposed to actually

599
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 6: be ending up somewhere where you can, you know, walk

600
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 6: on ground. The biggest disadvantage I see to Mars is

601
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 6: the lack of gravity. It's the same as the Moon.

602
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 6: The difference is that the Moon is so close to Earth.

603
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 6: It's only three days away. You can go there and

604
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 6: come back. It's kind of a weekend trip almost going

605
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 6: back and forth. I don't want to minimize the risk

606
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 6: of going to the Moon and back, but you know, geographically,

607
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 6: on a Solar System level, it's basically our backyard, whereas

608
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 6: Mars is a lot further away, and if you've got

609
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 6: problems out there and with the lack of gravity or

610
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 6: anything else, it's tough to get any help. And we

611
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 6: already know from our own history of human spaceflight, even

612
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 6: with limited short duration hops to the Moon and lower

613
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 6: th orbit, that we don't react that well to lack

614
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 6: of gravity. Our bodies are as we keep talking about,

615
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 6: our bodies are well suited for one g of gravity

616
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 6: here on Earth. And so to go to Mars, where

617
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 6: it's so far away, it takes so long to get there,

618
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 6: you're kind of committed to being in zero gravity the

619
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 6: whole way there and the whole way back, and then

620
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 6: when you get there, it's only thirty eight percent diverts gravity.

621
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 6: You know, we're just not sure how the human body

622
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 6: is going to react to that. It could be that

623
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 6: it's fine, but it could be that it's not. And

624
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 6: if you're looking at being there from a Homo sapien

625
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 6: expansion into the cosmos perspective, being there multiple generations and

626
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 6: that's where the problems come up, where we're not sure

627
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 6: if humans can reproduce in less than one g of gravity.

628
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 6: And I know Kelly's heard me say this before, right,

629
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 6: you know, we're not sure if we can conceive, we're

630
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 6: not sure if we can carry a fetus to term,

631
00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 6: We're not sure if we can deliver a baby without defect,

632
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 6: and most importantly, we're not sure if that Martian born

633
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 6: Homo sapien baby can grow into adulthood and reproduce themselves.

634
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 6: So it's entirely possible that we could be going to

635
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 6: Mars and then kind of die out within one generation

636
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 6: because we can't reproduce. I think that's the biggest challenge.

637
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 6: I'm hoping that I'm wrong. You know, I'm hoping that

638
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 6: we get there and everything works out or we can

639
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 6: figure out ways around it. But as of right now,

640
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 6: given what we know, that is probably the biggest risk

641
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 6: of going to Mars from a species standpoint, at least

642
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 6: from a long term, permanent, multi generational standpoint. Now, the

643
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 6: pro of Mars, I think is from my standpoint because

644
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 6: I'm one of these explorer as explorer bees is you know,

645
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 6: we're on the third rock from the Sun here and

646
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 6: Mars is the fourth rock from the Sun, So it

647
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 6: feels like we're on our way out of the Solar System.

648
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 6: You know, it's closer to the asteroid belt. We can

649
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 6: get to some of the asteroids, and the asteroid belt,

650
00:32:58,640 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 6: we can get through that and get to the moon

651
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 6: of Jupiter and move on beyond. It seems like we're

652
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 6: heading in the right direction, either in actuality or psychologically.

653
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 6: It feels like we're going out in that direction. I

654
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 6: think that's the biggest advantage that Mars has.

655
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: So I think most people wouldn't listen to the list

656
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: of cons that you said and then think, well, we

657
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 1: should go to Venus instead.

658
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 3: Like so, when we were doing.

659
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: The research for our book, Venus was always compared unfavorably

660
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 1: to Hell. And I remember reading about the you know,

661
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 1: Russian venera probes they like landed and.

662
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 3: Immediately was squished and then melted.

663
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 1: So we listed in our book we put Venus is

664
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:42,719
Speaker 1: one of the less good options.

665
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, why were we wrong?

666
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 6: Well, so I've told you this before. I think even

667
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 6: the first time we met is until four years ago,

668
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 6: I agreed with you, and I think every time we

669
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 6: have to when we talk about Venus, we've got to

670
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 6: get past the everything you just said. If we land

671
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 6: on the surface of Venus, we're going to get crushed

672
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 6: or we're going to get fried, or both, because the

673
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 6: pressure and the temperature at the surface is just horrendous

674
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 6: for Homo sapiens. Or we have to combat the other

675
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 6: end of the sci fi spectrum, which is terraforming Venus. Right,

676
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 6: can we change it so that we take their big

677
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 6: atmosphere and make it more amenable to us, which, of

678
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 6: course we don't even know if it's possible, and even

679
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 6: if it's possible, it would take centuries, so like it's

680
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 6: total sci fi. So I think what changed for me

681
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,320
Speaker 6: four years ago is I was reading a white paper

682
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 6: about those Soviet era ven aera emissions that you were

683
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 6: talking about. And for people who are listening who don't know,

684
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 6: and I didn't know this until four years ago, the

685
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 6: former Soviet Union has more experience learning more about Venus

686
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 6: than anybody else because they've sent I don't know, a

687
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 6: dozen or so probes in orbit and through the atmosphere

688
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 6: and to the surface of Venus. So four years ago

689
00:34:57,680 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 6: I was reading this white paper about some of the

690
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:03,840
Speaker 6: data collected from these these missions, and there's a chart

691
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 6: in particular that stood out which showed that, yeah, on

692
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 6: the surface of Venus, the pressure is horrendous and the

693
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,800
Speaker 6: temperature is horrendous, but about fifty kilometers off the surface,

694
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 6: in the Venusian atmosphere, there's like a ten kilometer wide

695
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:26,760
Speaker 6: swath of the atmosphere where it's basically one atmosphere of pressure,

696
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 6: which is about what is sea level here on Earth,

697
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 6: and where temperatures range from twenty five to fifty degrees centigrade,

698
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:38,760
Speaker 6: which is definitely hot, but it's not fatal. It's gonna

699
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 6: it's not going to burn, you know, melt your suit

700
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 6: or anything.

701
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 2: I want to see that on the advertising for Venetian homes.

702
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:45,800
Speaker 2: Not fatal.

703
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 6: That's really yeah, hey, yeah, but you know what, as

704
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 6: we were talking about earlier, that's a claim that you

705
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 6: can't make on Mars or the Moon, right, you know,

706
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 6: you can't make them not fatal on on pressure, on

707
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:06,399
Speaker 6: gravity or on are on temperature. So so that's one

708
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 6: reason where all of a sudden I looked at it

709
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 6: and go, wait a second. And by the way, let's

710
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 6: back up. The whole reason I was looking at that

711
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:14,760
Speaker 6: white paper to begin with was because of the gravity

712
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 6: that we were talking about earlier, right, the problems with

713
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 6: making a Martian community multi generational and not knowing if

714
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:24,399
Speaker 6: we can reproduce. I started thinking, well, it'd be nice

715
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 6: if we found somewhere in their solar system then had

716
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 6: one g of gravity that was not one of these,

717
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 6: you know, human constructed spinning, rotating structures. And since gravity

718
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,240
Speaker 6: is related to size and mass of the object, obviously

719
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,759
Speaker 6: Venus would be the best choice because it's ninety eight

720
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 6: percent the size of Earth and it has ninety eight

721
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:46,240
Speaker 6: percent of our gravity.

722
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 2: But we are talking about a human constructed something, right,

723
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 2: because as you say, the surface is way too deep.

724
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:54,799
Speaker 2: The nice region is not on the surface. There's no

725
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 2: surface to walk around fifty kilometers fifty eight kilometers. Also,

726
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 2: that is very, very high. I'm terrified of heights. You

727
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,239
Speaker 2: talking about living fifty kilometers above the surface on some

728
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 2: human constructed platform. I'm really going to be having to

729
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 2: trust those engineers.

730
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, Well so you're right now. Backtracking one step though,

731
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 6: I'm talking about human constructed and rotating just so we

732
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:24,839
Speaker 6: can get artificial gravity. I see, right, You know, at

733
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 6: least on Venus, whatever the human constructed structure is, you

734
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 6: don't have to spin it around and rotate it and

735
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:35,919
Speaker 6: hope that it doesn't break apart, because you've got one

736
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 6: g of gravity. Right, And I want to come back

737
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 6: to the rest of what you just said, because I

738
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 6: think that that's very important. But let me just keep

739
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 6: kind of going through the thought process originally from four

740
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 6: years ago, because when I looked at it, I thought, well,

741
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 6: this is perfect. Then we've got one g of gravity

742
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 6: and fifty kilometers off the surface, we're going to have

743
00:37:56,239 --> 00:38:00,440
Speaker 6: decent temperature, decent pressure. I dug further. They're into the

744
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 6: white paper, and the data that they collected seem to

745
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 6: suggest that the Venusian atmosphere is still so thick that

746
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 6: even at fifty kilometers, as you said, that's very high up,

747
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,879
Speaker 6: but their atmosphere is so thick there, like there's people

748
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:15,359
Speaker 6: living there. I don't know why I just said that,

749
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 6: but you know, Venus' atmosphere is still so thick that

750
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 6: what's left above you at fifty kilometers is still thick

751
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,480
Speaker 6: enough to provide adequate protection from the Sun's radiation, even

752
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 6: though Venus is closer to the Sun and it does

753
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 6: not have a magnetic field the way we do. So

754
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,320
Speaker 6: I thought, wow, this would be like a perfect place,

755
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 6: you know, as close as it gets off Earth. Digging

756
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 6: a little further, it turns out Venus is also closer

757
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 6: to Earth than Mars is and has a more similar

758
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 6: orbit than Mars. If you've looked at Mars or thought

759
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 6: about Mars, you've seen or even talk listening to elon Talk,

760
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,439
Speaker 6: you know that there's a launch window every twenty six

761
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 6: months where we can launch anything toward Mars. And that's

762
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,319
Speaker 6: in large part because we have a fairly circular orbit

763
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 6: around the Sun, and Mars has a fairly more elliptical

764
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 6: orbit around the Sun, whereas Venus is a lot more circular,

765
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:10,839
Speaker 6: kind of like ours. So it kind of makes it

766
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 6: easier to get to and from Venus.

767
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 1: Is there a regular launch window though, that's an and

768
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:17,719
Speaker 1: if so, what is the timeframe there?

769
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 6: Yeah? So I think the transit time is a lot shorter,

770
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 6: but it's also more regular, like it's always three to

771
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 6: four months, whereas Venus can be anywhere from six to

772
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 6: nine months. And in some cases, if you hit it

773
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 6: on the wrong time, you may as well not even

774
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 6: try because you know you're never going to catch it

775
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 6: coming around. But also importantly, you're using less fuel to

776
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 6: catch it, you need less delta V We promise not

777
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 6: to get too technical, but so anyway, I started looking

778
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 6: at all that. But the problem is, as I've said before,

779
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 6: you know, I'm not technical, I'm not an engineer, I'm

780
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 6: not a scientist. So I was looking at this, going okay, this,

781
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 6: I can't be the first person to have seen this, right,

782
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:56,799
Speaker 6: So of course the first thing I did is a

783
00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:00,359
Speaker 6: Google search, And it turns out NASA had actually looked

784
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,840
Speaker 6: at this already a few years ago. They created a

785
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 6: thing called HAVOC. NASA loves their acronyms, right, so HAVOC

786
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:13,799
Speaker 6: High Altitude Venus Operational Concept, and they had come up

787
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 6: with this concept of having basically floating research stations in

788
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 6: the Venusian atmosphere, and I thought, okay, well, if NASA's

789
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 6: looked at it, then I'm not completely nuts. There's got

790
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 6: to be other people that have looked at it and

791
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 6: kept doing more Google search and poking around, and it

792
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 6: turns out a lot of people around the world have

793
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 6: looked at this, including the Russians, and so it just

794
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,760
Speaker 6: kind of became interesting seeing, Okay, there's all these experts

795
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 6: everywhere that have actually looked at this. And I thought

796
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 6: the same thing, Kelly. Did you know when you and

797
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 6: Zach were researching your book, It's like, well, then, how

798
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:44,359
Speaker 6: come we don't know about this?

799
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 4: You know?

800
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 6: Why is it such a hidden gem kind of thing?

801
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 6: And I think it's because all these people are kind

802
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:54,880
Speaker 6: of working in isolation around the world, and because the

803
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 6: world is so focused on Moon, Mars and beyond, and because,

804
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 6: as you were saying, you know, the conventional wisdom on

805
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 6: Venus is that it's hell. Everyone's afraid of poking their

806
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:10,359
Speaker 6: head up and being labeled some sort of lunatic on it.

807
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 6: And so I started, before I poked my head up

808
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 6: and started being labeled at lunatic, I started trying to

809
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 6: have private conversations with people that had talked about this

810
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 6: or discussed this or put out videos or blogs or whatever.

811
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:28,840
Speaker 6: And the more I talk to people, the more it

812
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 6: seemed to make sense.

813
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 3: So you said floating in the Venusian atmosphere.

814
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 1: So floating to me implies like no work needs to

815
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:38,839
Speaker 1: be done, but like propellant will constantly need to be

816
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 1: used to keep this thing up, so it doesn't, you know,

817
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 1: fall down, so everyone dies.

818
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, no, So that's great. So actually that's a

819
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:47,720
Speaker 6: good segue to come back to what Daniel said earlier

820
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 6: about living on this man made structure, you know, floating

821
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:53,799
Speaker 6: somewhere and trusting it and being afraid of heights and

822
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 6: all that. So the interesting thing in Venus's atmosphere, which

823
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 6: is primarily carbon dioxide, and it's very very dense. It

824
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 6: is so dense that if you take our normal breathable

825
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 6: air and put that in a balloon, it will actually

826
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 6: float in Venus' atmosphere, which means that if you're looking

827
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 6: to build something that's livable, you could essentially take something.

828
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 6: And this is an engineer did this. I didn't do

829
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 6: the calculation. So if it's wrong, someone else can work

830
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,800
Speaker 6: around it. If you take let's say a football stadium

831
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 6: that's domed, and you fill it with normal breathable air,

832
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:37,759
Speaker 6: it will create enough lifting force in venus' atmosphere to

833
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 6: keep the whole football stadium afloat?

834
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 3: Does that check out?

835
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 2: Particle physicists, Daniel, that's a whole lot of particles to

836
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 2: calculate it all at once. But doesn't that depend a

837
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 2: little bit on the extra mass, Like you know, how

838
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 2: heavy is the football stadium, et cetera.

839
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 4: But you know it might.

840
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 2: I mean, you can float like huge battleships that are

841
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 2: basically bubbled of air in the water. That's effectively we're

842
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 2: talking about, right.

843
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:05,799
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, something like that. So cool. Again, not being

844
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 6: an engineer and not being a scientist, I tend to

845
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:13,800
Speaker 6: live my life trusting engineers and scientists and instead of

846
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 6: questioning them, maybe I should question them more. But for

847
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 6: something like that, it seems to me like that's an

848
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 6: engineering problem. Like you put enough engineers on that they'll

849
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 6: figure out how to how to make this thing float.

850
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 6: So two things, Kelly to your point.

851
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,240
Speaker 2: And after the first few disasters crashes, they'll really figure

852
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 2: it out. Yeah, so you don't want to be in

853
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:32,880
Speaker 2: the first wave. But eventually.

854
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 6: Well, and hopefully, you know, the first few waves are

855
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 6: going to be autonomous and there won't be anyone on

856
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 6: them until they figure it out, right. But you know, Kelly,

857
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 6: to your point, despite the fact that this thing may

858
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:48,880
Speaker 6: kind of float, like you said, with like little or

859
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:51,360
Speaker 6: no effort, there is going to still have to be

860
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:55,240
Speaker 6: you know, maintaining that that equilibrium and keep it floating.

861
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 6: And then there's probably going to need to be some

862
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:01,280
Speaker 6: sort of system to keep it kind of station keeping,

863
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 6: you know, make sure it doesn't dip too far down

864
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:05,359
Speaker 6: or too far up, because if it goes down, it's

865
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 6: going to be subject to the additional pressure and temperature.

866
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 6: Too far up, it's it's going to be cold and

867
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 6: all that stuff. So there's going to have to be

868
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 6: some adjustment there. But Daniel, going back to your earlier

869
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 6: point about having the sphere of heights and all that stuff,

870
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 6: I think it's because when you think about it, you're

871
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:23,360
Speaker 6: kind of thinking of like a small like research station

872
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 6: kind of thing. But imagine an entire building or a

873
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 6: football stadium, right, or a mall right, you could kind of,

874
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:34,760
Speaker 6: or or a cruise ship right where you're you're always

875
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 6: on this big structure and and it's floating, and I

876
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 6: think it's also I guess related to that is one

877
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 6: thing that we don't have a lot of from a

878
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,279
Speaker 6: science standpoint. We don't have a lot of photographs or

879
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 6: video of the Venusian atmosphere, so we're not even sure

880
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 6: what the view will look like from up there. It's

881
00:44:57,360 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 6: very dense atmosphere. There are a lot of clouds there,

882
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:01,839
Speaker 6: and so so it may just be kind of like

883
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 6: when you're in an airplane and you're flying through clouds,

884
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:08,359
Speaker 6: or you're flying right above clouds, you may not even

885
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 6: get a sense for how high up you are.

886
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 2: Anyway, And if I fall off this platform, right, I'm

887
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:15,319
Speaker 2: not just going to be on my own. I'm going

888
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:17,480
Speaker 2: to be in some sort of breathable suit anyway. Say

889
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:19,719
Speaker 2: I'm like working on the outside of it, I fall off,

890
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:23,359
Speaker 2: I'm wondering because the pressure, will I actually fall off

891
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 2: or will I just float next to it? Is it

892
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:28,479
Speaker 2: more like being underwater where if you like lose your grip,

893
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:31,400
Speaker 2: you're floating next to it, as opposed to like actually

894
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:32,840
Speaker 2: plummeting towards the surface.

895
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 6: You know, that's a great question. I don't think I've

896
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:37,280
Speaker 6: ever been asked that question in the last four years.

897
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:39,239
Speaker 6: You know, I have no idea. So since I'm not

898
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 6: an engineer scientist, I'm going to have to ask somebody

899
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:43,919
Speaker 6: you know, to help out with that, because a part

900
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 6: of me says, well, you've got gravity pulling you down, right,

901
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 6: So it is like being one gee of gravity. It

902
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,400
Speaker 6: is going to pull you down. But I guess to

903
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 6: your point, is the atmosphere so dense that it wouldn't

904
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:56,400
Speaker 6: be able to pull you down? Would you float? Like?

905
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 6: You know, that's a great question.

906
00:45:58,000 --> 00:45:59,840
Speaker 2: I don't know the same physics should apply to a

907
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 2: in an air bubble as they do to a football

908
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:03,440
Speaker 2: stadium in an air bubble.

909
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 6: Right, so ooh, that's a great question.

910
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 1: Oh let's all take a break and see if we

911
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 1: could figure out the answer, and we'll come back in

912
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 1: a second to chat more about Venus. So, I think

913
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:28,759
Speaker 1: that living in Venus would also have some really interesting

914
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:30,320
Speaker 1: material science.

915
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:31,920
Speaker 3: Problems that would need to get solved.

916
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,319
Speaker 1: In particular, I'm thinking about the fact that there are

917
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:38,279
Speaker 1: lots of clouds made of sulphuric acid that you'd be

918
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:39,320
Speaker 1: floating on top.

919
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 3: Of in the Venutian atmosphere.

920
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:44,840
Speaker 1: What do we know about how well habitats can survive

921
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:45,799
Speaker 1: stuff like that.

922
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 6: Yeah, So that's great because there are two things that

923
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:52,959
Speaker 6: I was kind of excited about, because there are two

924
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 6: huge cons to venus, right you asked me earlier, the

925
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 6: cons to Mars. They're two huge cons to venus. One

926
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 6: is that the atmosphere is primarily CO two, so we

927
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,279
Speaker 6: can't breathe it. And the other one is what you

928
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 6: just mentioned is the clouds are made of sulphuric acid.

929
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 6: So when I read that, I'm like, oh, well, now

930
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 6: what do we do? But I kind of researched a

931
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 6: little bit more, and so the first thing we'd have

932
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:20,800
Speaker 6: to do on the first one is we'd have to

933
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 6: be able to convert the CO two into breathable air.

934
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 6: And the thing with that is if you're a scuba diver,

935
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:31,320
Speaker 6: you know that scuba divers have been using rebreathers for

936
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 6: a long time now, and so there is a method

937
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 6: of converting CO two into breathable air. And by the way,

938
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:41,400
Speaker 6: a few weeks ago, I was in Boston at a

939
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 6: conference and after one of the sessions, we were at

940
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 6: one of the receptions and I happened to be talking

941
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 6: with a guy and before he even knew what I

942
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:51,839
Speaker 6: was working on with the whole Venus thing. I asked

943
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 6: him what he was working on. It turns out he

944
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 6: was an atmospheric scientist, and I'm like, oh wait, I've

945
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:02,799
Speaker 6: got three questions for you. So question number one, is

946
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 6: it possible to turn CO two into breathable air just

947
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:09,319
Speaker 6: from a atmosphere chemistry standpoint? And he said, yes, it

948
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 6: depends on what scale, but yeah, it can be done.

949
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 6: And it depends on how much money it's going to

950
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 6: take to do it or resources it's going to take

951
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:20,800
Speaker 6: to do it, but yes, from a chemical standpoint, it

952
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:21,319
Speaker 6: can be done.

953
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 1: I think that's the subodia reaction. Didn't Moxie just do

954
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 1: that on Mars? I think they had a box on

955
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 1: Mars that was converting the carbon dioxide in the atmosphere anyway,

956
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:33,520
Speaker 1: So sorry, yeah, that's a problem we've made some progress on.

957
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Well, that's my point with this is

958
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:38,399
Speaker 6: that you know, these are not like we don't need

959
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 6: to like invent the warp drive or something, you know

960
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 6: to make this happen. You know, because number two is

961
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 6: can we extract water from sulphuric acid clouds and CO

962
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,759
Speaker 6: to atmosphere and he said, yeah, absolutely, that's a no brainer.

963
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 6: I said, okay. And then the third one is what

964
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 6: your question was, right, do we have materials that can

965
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:05,680
Speaker 6: withstand sulfuric acid? And he said yes, and the two

966
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 6: most common ones are glass and the big long scientific

967
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:17,520
Speaker 6: name that I don't know, but the common name is teflon. Right,

968
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:23,400
Speaker 6: so we've got teflon that's resistant to sulphuric acid and glass.

969
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 6: So I asked him, well, given you know CO two

970
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 6: and sulfuric acid, can you make teflon out of it?

971
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 6: It's like, well, you'd need fluorine or something like that,

972
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 6: you'd add it in, but you could, you could create it.

973
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:39,319
Speaker 6: So so the bottom line is it sounds like even

974
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:42,840
Speaker 6: the biggest obstacles to setting up shop in the Venusian

975
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 6: atmosphere are from an engineering perspective and from a scientific perspective,

976
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:51,759
Speaker 6: we can probably overcome even today if we really wanted

977
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 6: wanted to do it. It's not like, like I said,

978
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 6: it's not like we've got to invent warp drive or

979
00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 6: artificial gravity or anything else like that.

980
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:00,839
Speaker 1: So to try to bottom line, so, I think what

981
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 1: you're arguing is that so rotating space stations awesome but

982
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 1: super complicated, and Venus is less complicated because you don't

983
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:11,240
Speaker 1: have to spin, and Mars has a lot of benefits.

984
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 1: But if not living in one G is a game stopper,

985
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:17,920
Speaker 1: then Venus is a better option.

986
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:20,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, in some ways you could think about it.

987
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 6: You know, in the US, NASA has been following this Moon,

988
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 6: Mars and Beyond strategy for a couple of decades, and

989
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 6: the rationale behind that is, you know, kind of like

990
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 6: the crawl walk run approach. Right, we start in Leo,

991
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:37,520
Speaker 6: that's crawling, we're getting used to kind of operating in space.

992
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:40,759
Speaker 6: Then we go to the Moon, which is our planetary backyard,

993
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:43,880
Speaker 6: to build up some of the competencies and that develop

994
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 6: some of the technologies, and then we're going to actually

995
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 6: go out to Mars. So it's kind of like this

996
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:51,359
Speaker 6: crawl walk run kind of thing. But if you think

997
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 6: about it, in many ways, Venus may actually be a

998
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 6: better next stepping stone because at least we don't have

999
00:50:57,239 --> 00:51:00,439
Speaker 6: to worry about all these weird orbital mechanics, we don't

1000
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 6: have to worry about gravity, we don't have to worry

1001
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:05,600
Speaker 6: about you know, what's the hardest part you ask anybody

1002
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:08,239
Speaker 6: on Mars missions. What's the hardest part about a Mars mission,

1003
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:11,400
Speaker 6: and it's the hard landing on the surface, you know,

1004
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 6: surviving that hard landing. I don't know what the success

1005
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:19,319
Speaker 6: rate is on on the Mars missions, but you know,

1006
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 6: most of them failed just during the landing, and you know,

1007
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:25,279
Speaker 6: we don't have to worry about that on Venus. We

1008
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:27,759
Speaker 6: got to make sure that, you know, we don't fall

1009
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 6: through the fifty kilometer mark and implode on the way

1010
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:34,520
Speaker 6: down to the surface. But it's a lot of challenges

1011
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 6: that we're going to have going to Mars that we're

1012
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:40,280
Speaker 6: not going to have going to Venus. And so there's

1013
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 6: there's an argument to be made that maybe Venus is

1014
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:46,160
Speaker 6: even a good training ground for going to Mars or beyond.

1015
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 1: Would it be fair to say that that it's not

1016
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 1: necessarily that we don't have the same problems, but they're

1017
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:52,440
Speaker 1: just a little easier because, like Venus will still have

1018
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 1: some orbital mechanics to worry about, and getting just the

1019
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:58,879
Speaker 1: right spot in the Venusian atmosphere is tough, but maybe

1020
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:00,320
Speaker 1: not as tough as landing on Mors.

1021
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:04,399
Speaker 3: But space is never easy. Problems never go away.

1022
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, Yeah, that's why I never say that it's easy,

1023
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:10,879
Speaker 6: or even that it's better because it's just different, right,

1024
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 6: Because you're right, we've got similar problems, but they may

1025
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:18,280
Speaker 6: be easier to solve. But we also have some problems

1026
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 6: on Venus that you don't have on Mars, like dealing

1027
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 6: with the CO two atmosphere and dealing with the sulphuric

1028
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 6: acid clouds and dealing with you know, we haven't even

1029
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 6: talked about the mechanics of this, but you know, in

1030
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:31,279
Speaker 6: both cases, you're probably orbiting the planet and then you're

1031
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:34,719
Speaker 6: going down to where the human community is. On Mars

1032
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 6: you're going from orbit down and landing on the surface,

1033
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 6: and then in Venus you're going down to the atmosphere.

1034
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:40,759
Speaker 6: In both cases you also have to be able to

1035
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:44,280
Speaker 6: come back. So from Mars you're launching from the surface

1036
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 6: back to the orbit before coming back to Earth or whatever.

1037
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 6: And that's something we know how to do, because that's

1038
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:51,840
Speaker 6: how we've got there to begin with. Right, We launched

1039
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 6: off the surface of Earth into orbit and then beyond,

1040
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:58,480
Speaker 6: but launching from an atmospheric platform back to orbit is

1041
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:03,280
Speaker 6: something we really haven't done. We've tested, but we don't

1042
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:06,279
Speaker 6: have a lot of experience doing that, and certainly not humans. Right,

1043
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 6: we haven't launched humans from a hot air balloon or

1044
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 6: from a stratospheric balloon into orbit. So those are challenges

1045
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:17,760
Speaker 6: that we haven't faced yet and that we won't face

1046
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 6: on Mars or the Moon. But on the flip side,

1047
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:25,319
Speaker 6: a lot of those things are, like I said, are

1048
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:29,040
Speaker 6: challenges that, like I said, I keep kind of tritely saying,

1049
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:31,480
Speaker 6: we don't have to invent warp drive or something like

1050
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:33,799
Speaker 6: that to do that. It's something that we could even

1051
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:36,000
Speaker 6: start testing. That's the other nice thing, by the way,

1052
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:40,160
Speaker 6: with Venus is so much of the technologies and the

1053
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:42,520
Speaker 6: operational capabilities we're going to need to develop or about

1054
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:45,080
Speaker 6: operating in an atmosphere, and so we can actually test

1055
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 6: some of those here on Earth. Right. We could test

1056
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:51,720
Speaker 6: high altitude balloons and trying to launch rockets into orbit

1057
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:54,080
Speaker 6: from there, and people have tried that and have tested it.

1058
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:56,719
Speaker 6: But we could develop those capabilities. We could develop some

1059
00:53:56,800 --> 00:54:01,960
Speaker 6: of these larger floating structures and try The other thing

1060
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:05,799
Speaker 6: we haven't tried is point to point transportation within the atmosphere. Right,

1061
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 6: if we had two balloons with stations, can we get

1062
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:12,839
Speaker 6: from one to the other, you know, floating over there

1063
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 6: in some sort of transportation system. So it's things that

1064
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:18,680
Speaker 6: we could test here on Earth before we actually go

1065
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:21,520
Speaker 6: to Venus. It's tougher to test stuff from Mars because

1066
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 6: we can't simulate the gravity and everything else.

1067
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:26,799
Speaker 1: We're coming up on the end of our hour, and

1068
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:29,399
Speaker 1: my plan for wrapping things up was to ask if

1069
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 1: you would personally go to Venus given the chance.

1070
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:33,759
Speaker 3: But I feel like.

1071
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:36,560
Speaker 1: We've had enough comparisons to the scout Bees that the

1072
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:37,560
Speaker 1: answer must be yes.

1073
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:39,360
Speaker 3: So what is the answer?

1074
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 6: I think the advantage to living in Venus because of

1075
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:46,320
Speaker 6: the one G of gravity is it'll be relatively straightforward

1076
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 6: to go back and forth between Venus and Earth, especially

1077
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 6: for anyone born on Venus. Right, any homo sapien born

1078
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:55,279
Speaker 6: on Venus is going to be used to one G

1079
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:57,759
Speaker 6: of gravity there, and so they can easily come back

1080
00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 6: and visit here on Earth and go back. Any homo

1081
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:03,040
Speaker 6: sapien born on Mars is going to be used to

1082
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:06,799
Speaker 6: thirty eight percent of Earth gravity, So coming to visit

1083
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:10,560
Speaker 6: here on Earth to them, it will feel like they're

1084
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:13,880
Speaker 6: constantly pulling a two and a half g turn in

1085
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:18,800
Speaker 6: an airplane, and that's going to be uncomfortable. At a minimum,

1086
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,719
Speaker 6: it's going to be uncomfortable, you know. At worst, it's

1087
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:23,799
Speaker 6: just going to cause all sorts of health problems. So

1088
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:28,160
Speaker 6: I don't think very many Martian Homo sapiens, assuming we

1089
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:31,439
Speaker 6: can you conceive and be born there and all that,

1090
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:33,400
Speaker 6: I don't think very many of them are ever going

1091
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:36,839
Speaker 6: to be able to come back to Earth, whereas Venusians

1092
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:40,279
Speaker 6: will kind of be more of a society that will

1093
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:42,720
Speaker 6: have closer ties with Earth and go back and forth.

1094
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 6: Now I'm kind of talking more sci fi futuristic, you know,

1095
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:49,719
Speaker 6: one hundred years from now, but I think that's for

1096
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:52,719
Speaker 6: that reason. I think I'd rather live on a floating

1097
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:59,560
Speaker 6: platform in Venus than on some surface of Mars Station, which,

1098
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:01,759
Speaker 6: by the way, probably going to be underground anyway. So

1099
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:06,360
Speaker 6: it's going to be just as claustrophobic as staying stranded

1100
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:08,760
Speaker 6: on a little floating station in the middle of the

1101
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:09,960
Speaker 6: Venusian atmosphere.

1102
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:12,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, Daniel's afraid of heights and I'm claustrophobic. So I

1103
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:14,760
Speaker 1: suspect that Daniel and I are going to be staying

1104
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 1: on Earth and Germo.

1105
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:18,400
Speaker 3: You can visit Us from Venus because it'll.

1106
00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:20,319
Speaker 6: Be conunious, So I'll send you pictures.

1107
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:24,240
Speaker 3: Okay, was there any more questions you wanted to ask? Daniel?

1108
00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:26,280
Speaker 2: You know, I think a lot about where I moved

1109
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:29,520
Speaker 2: because it influences not just where my kids live, but

1110
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:32,080
Speaker 2: where they're from. You know, I moved to southern California,

1111
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 2: and now I have to hear my kids say, like,

1112
00:56:33,719 --> 00:56:35,759
Speaker 2: I'm from Orange County, which is a bit of a

1113
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:38,400
Speaker 2: shock to the system. So how do you feel about

1114
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:40,799
Speaker 2: moving to Venus and then having your kids be like,

1115
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:42,000
Speaker 2: I'm Venusian.

1116
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:44,680
Speaker 6: I think it would be cool. You know. I was

1117
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:47,239
Speaker 6: just thinking about this because I was watching For All

1118
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:51,640
Speaker 6: Mankind Love it and you know, not to spoil it

1119
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:54,880
Speaker 6: for people who haven't watched it yet, but it's just

1120
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:59,920
Speaker 6: interesting the evolution of off world communities when they're on

1121
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:05,160
Speaker 6: the Moon or on Mars and versus Venus, which by

1122
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:07,120
Speaker 6: the way, is not part of the For All Mankind.

1123
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:12,000
Speaker 6: And I think that kind of will evolve over time.

1124
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:14,120
Speaker 6: And I think to a certain extent, Kelly and Zach

1125
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:15,960
Speaker 6: kind of talked about this, and they're both too. But

1126
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 6: if you just kind of look at the history of

1127
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:22,439
Speaker 6: human expansion from one piece of land mass on Earth

1128
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 6: to another piece of land mass owner you know, initially

1129
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:28,480
Speaker 6: First of all, the demographics of whoever's in this new

1130
00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:31,200
Speaker 6: community change over time. You know, the first ones are

1131
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:34,240
Speaker 6: the explorers, and then you've got settlers, and then you've

1132
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 6: got natives who were born there, and a lot of

1133
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 6: them will always come back because they're originally from wherever

1134
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:44,080
Speaker 6: they were from. And eventually you get to a point

1135
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:46,320
Speaker 6: where you've got people that were born and raised in

1136
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:49,360
Speaker 6: this new community that have never been back to their ancestors,

1137
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:52,760
Speaker 6: you know, their parents' homeland or their grandparents' homeland, and

1138
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 6: so they start developing their own identity, and eventually they'll

1139
00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:59,919
Speaker 6: kind of become more independent because they'll have their own lane,

1140
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:03,920
Speaker 6: which their own culture, their own belief system and all that.

1141
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 6: I think that's going to be more true on Mars

1142
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 6: than on Venus. I think over time, I think the

1143
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:15,440
Speaker 6: Moon will never have that identity because it's just so

1144
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:18,320
Speaker 6: easy to go back and forth. I think it's always

1145
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:23,440
Speaker 6: going to be tied to Earth's identity. I think Venus

1146
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:27,200
Speaker 6: will have its own identity and people will say, hey,

1147
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:30,200
Speaker 6: I'm Venusian, I'm from Venus, but it'll still be fairly

1148
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:32,840
Speaker 6: closely tied to Earth because it's relatively easy to go

1149
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:35,480
Speaker 6: back and forth, although over time a lot of Venusians

1150
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 6: will never come to Earth, just like a lot of

1151
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:40,480
Speaker 6: Earthlings will never go to Venus. But Mars is really

1152
00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:43,240
Speaker 6: going to be where there's going to be I think

1153
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:49,360
Speaker 6: an independence movement because of just the physical problems of

1154
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:53,120
Speaker 6: Martian Homo sapiens coming back to Earth and vice versa.

1155
00:58:53,320 --> 00:58:58,480
Speaker 6: So I think, yeah, I'd be perfectly okay with descendants

1156
00:58:58,520 --> 00:59:01,840
Speaker 6: saying that they're from Venus. In fact, I think it'd

1157
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:02,439
Speaker 6: be pretty cool.

1158
00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:05,160
Speaker 2: It does sound pretty cool. Well, thanks very much for

1159
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:07,480
Speaker 2: answering all of our questions. Really appreciate your time.

1160
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, sure, it's great. It's always great talking with Kelly

1161
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:12,120
Speaker 6: and Daniel. It's great meeting you all.

1162
00:59:12,240 --> 00:59:15,560
Speaker 2: Ride super fun to talk to Giermo. So what do

1163
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:17,720
Speaker 2: you think in the end, Kelly, what are the chances

1164
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:19,880
Speaker 2: that they're going to get a thousand people to live

1165
00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 2: if floating in the atmosphere or Venus by twenty to fifty.

1166
00:59:23,640 --> 00:59:24,919
Speaker 3: I think.

1167
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:29,600
Speaker 1: I think that conversations like this make me realize just

1168
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:33,200
Speaker 1: how harsh space is. You know that Venus, that by

1169
00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:35,280
Speaker 1: listening to someone like Germo at the end, you could

1170
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:38,760
Speaker 1: be like, well, maybe Venus isn't quite as inhospitable, as

1171
00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:40,720
Speaker 1: I thought to me, that just says that everything out

1172
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:43,200
Speaker 1: there is just absolute rubbish.

1173
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:46,960
Speaker 3: It's just really bad living out in space. But you

1174
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:48,800
Speaker 3: know it does. I don't know.

1175
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:50,520
Speaker 1: I don't think we're going to be living having space

1176
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:51,960
Speaker 1: settlements anywhere.

1177
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:53,560
Speaker 3: In space by twenty fifty. And I think if you ask.

1178
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:55,920
Speaker 1: Ghermo, he'd say that they're shooting for twenty fifty.

1179
00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:58,439
Speaker 3: But you know, he wouldn't hang his hat on that date.

1180
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:04,400
Speaker 1: It's my not answer answer to your question is what

1181
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:05,080
Speaker 1: do you think?

1182
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:07,640
Speaker 2: My answer to my question is that the question is

1183
01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:10,560
Speaker 2: totally bogus because it's impossible to predict this kind of stuff.

1184
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:14,760
Speaker 2: Humanity and human civilization and technology changes so quickly, and

1185
01:00:14,800 --> 01:00:17,840
Speaker 2: the changes happen faster every year that you know, the

1186
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:22,320
Speaker 2: technology required could be invented that what is impossible today

1187
01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:25,080
Speaker 2: could be totally possible in five years. Somebody could invent

1188
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:27,280
Speaker 2: some new kind of material which makes these things really

1189
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 2: easy or simple. And so it's impossible to predict. And

1190
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:32,600
Speaker 2: I like their strategy of like, let's aim for it,

1191
01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:35,600
Speaker 2: let's push for it, because that's exactly the kind of work.

1192
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:37,200
Speaker 4: You have to do to make it possible.

1193
01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:39,720
Speaker 2: You have to push forward on all these boundaries and

1194
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:42,720
Speaker 2: do basic research and trying to crack problems. And you know,

1195
01:00:42,720 --> 01:00:45,040
Speaker 2: even if they don't figure this out, this kind of

1196
01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:46,960
Speaker 2: work could lead to new ideas that.

1197
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:48,240
Speaker 4: Helps solve other problems.

1198
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:50,680
Speaker 2: And so I'm in favor of, like, let's do all

1199
01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:53,000
Speaker 2: of it, you know, all the science and all the engineering.

1200
01:00:53,560 --> 01:00:55,520
Speaker 1: Sure, I'm with you, and I can tell you that

1201
01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:57,160
Speaker 1: it's a lot of fun drinking with Garamo.

1202
01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:01,360
Speaker 2: Well, thanks very much for bringing him on the show.

1203
01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:04,400
Speaker 2: And thanks again to Germo for answering all of our questions,

1204
01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:05,480
Speaker 2: well meaning.

1205
01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:06,560
Speaker 4: And naive as they were.

1206
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:09,120
Speaker 2: Thanks very much Kelly for joining us today, and thanks

1207
01:01:09,160 --> 01:01:12,040
Speaker 2: everybody for taking this mental trip to Venus with us.

1208
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:14,200
Speaker 3: Thanks friend and co host Daniel.

1209
01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:18,280
Speaker 2: Thanks brand and co host Kelly, and thanks to all

1210
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:25,439
Speaker 2: the listeners. All right, tune in next time for more

1211
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:28,560
Speaker 2: science and curiosity. Come find us on social media where

1212
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 2: we answer questions and post videos. We're on Twitter, Discorg, Instant,

1213
01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:36,720
Speaker 2: and now TikTok. Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel

1214
01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:40,200
Speaker 2: and Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio.

1215
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:44,960
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple

1216
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:48,080
Speaker 2: Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,