1
00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:04,520
Speaker 1: Welcome to this evening's classic episode of Folks. Have you

2
00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:08,200
Speaker 1: ever been to a bog? Matt and Noll, Have you, guys,

3
00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:11,480
Speaker 1: ever been to a bog? A bog standard bog, not

4
00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,960
Speaker 1: the bathroom, No, no, the bio Ah. Yes, of course no,

5
00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:19,040
Speaker 1: I have not, but I am quite fond of bog men.

6
00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,800
Speaker 2: I found myself in a bog a couple of times.

7
00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:26,880
Speaker 1: That don't make no nevermind to me man. Shout out

8
00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:32,080
Speaker 1: to our buddy West Gibvens. In nineteen eighty two Titusville, Georgia,

9
00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:35,879
Speaker 1: our story takes place a guy named Steve finds this

10
00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:39,879
Speaker 1: skull amid the debris of a job site, and it

11
00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:43,120
Speaker 1: turns out that he just may have discovered one of

12
00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:47,080
Speaker 1: the oldest grave sites in all of the United States.

13
00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:52,400
Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is

14
00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:56,800
Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

15
00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:00,400
Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. Reduction

16
00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,000
Speaker 1: of iHeart Radios, How Stuff Works.

17
00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:15,000
Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt. Noel

18
00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:16,360
Speaker 2: is on an adventure.

19
00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:19,840
Speaker 1: They call me Ben. We are joined as always with

20
00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:24,399
Speaker 1: our super producer team, our good buddy Mission Control is

21
00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,080
Speaker 1: on an adventure as well. Perhaps you will tell us

22
00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:29,640
Speaker 1: about it if you return safe. In the meantime, we're

23
00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:33,960
Speaker 1: joined again with our friends Maya and Seth, both of whom,

24
00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:38,120
Speaker 1: by the way, spent their respective first days at work

25
00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:42,480
Speaker 1: listening to one of our shows and decided to stay on.

26
00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:44,280
Speaker 1: So thanks for staying.

27
00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,440
Speaker 2: I mean, they kind of have to write. This is

28
00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,480
Speaker 2: part of the job. But still we're glad you're here.

29
00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you guys doing all right? Thumbs up, thumbs down,

30
00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:56,080
Speaker 1: All right, got some enthusiastic thumbs up. What about you, Matt,

31
00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:57,760
Speaker 1: how are you? What's going on? Oh?

32
00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:01,640
Speaker 2: Thumbs decidedly sideways. No, I'm just kidding. No, it's great.

33
00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:05,480
Speaker 2: We just launched Insomniac, the Monster Presents Insomniac show that we'

34
00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:06,960
Speaker 2: been working on for a long time. So I'm really

35
00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:09,919
Speaker 2: excited about that, and I wanted to ask you, by

36
00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:12,000
Speaker 2: the way, we haven't talked about it at length. So

37
00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,359
Speaker 2: you just got back from La on your own adventure.

38
00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,239
Speaker 1: Yes, that's true, that's true. First, i'd like to shout

39
00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:22,840
Speaker 1: out to Insomniac. I'd like to emphasize that is hosted

40
00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:27,799
Speaker 1: by my longtime friend, your longtime friend, as well as collaborator,

41
00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:31,320
Speaker 1: my writer dies Scott Benjamin, who will be appearing on

42
00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:34,840
Speaker 1: this show very soon, hopefully if we can get him

43
00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:36,880
Speaker 1: to work us into his busy schedule.

44
00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, it might even happen before this episode comes out.

45
00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:41,840
Speaker 2: Who knows who knows?

46
00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:47,200
Speaker 1: Time? Time is a wonky controversial thing. So if we

47
00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:50,079
Speaker 1: assume that time still works the way it did when

48
00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,920
Speaker 1: we recorded this podcast. Yes, I was previously in Los Angeles.

49
00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:58,200
Speaker 1: I was there for a thing called Alien Con and

50
00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:02,240
Speaker 1: I was asked to go there through some friends of ours,

51
00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:05,880
Speaker 1: fellow podcasters here in our network, Brent and John who

52
00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:09,799
Speaker 1: hosts Hysteria fifty one. Longtime listeners will remember them from

53
00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:13,519
Speaker 1: their previous appearances on this very show. Stuff. They don't

54
00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:14,240
Speaker 1: want you to know.

55
00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,840
Speaker 2: I heard you ran into some of the big names

56
00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:19,960
Speaker 2: in the extraterrestrial world.

57
00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:23,880
Speaker 1: Yeah. It was weird, man, I'm not going to lie.

58
00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:28,280
Speaker 1: It was a It was a trip that became a trip.

59
00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:32,360
Speaker 1: English is strange, but you get what I'm saying. Yeah,

60
00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:37,440
Speaker 1: So Giorgio Suculos was there, the guy who is responsible

61
00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,840
Speaker 1: for the fire in the sky story was there. There

62
00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,320
Speaker 1: were some other There were some other big names, some

63
00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:47,440
Speaker 1: of whom maybe most familiar to people who are already

64
00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:54,840
Speaker 1: very into the ufology or UFO citing community. Eric Eric Vondanakan, Yes,

65
00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:55,520
Speaker 1: that's right.

66
00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,840
Speaker 2: Jariots of the Gods.

67
00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:02,240
Speaker 1: That is probably one of the biggest ones for me.

68
00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:05,120
Speaker 1: William Shatner was there. I'm not sure if he was

69
00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:07,960
Speaker 1: aware that he was there or knew where he was,

70
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,120
Speaker 1: but he was definitely there. This is a convention that

71
00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:16,479
Speaker 1: seems to take place in numerous cities throughout the year.

72
00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,480
Speaker 1: There's another one coming up soon in Dallas, but we

73
00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:22,440
Speaker 1: went to check it out to represent our show, to

74
00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,480
Speaker 1: do a panel in UFOs and podcasting, and then through

75
00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:29,359
Speaker 1: a series of strange circumstances, I ended up hosting the

76
00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:31,760
Speaker 1: costume contest, which was a lot of fun and there

77
00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:35,080
Speaker 1: were some great costumes, but probably one of the best

78
00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:38,680
Speaker 1: things there was the ability to meet some of our

79
00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:43,440
Speaker 1: fellow podcasters. So I'd like to recommend one podcast I

80
00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:46,880
Speaker 1: listened to by a guy named Chris Cogswell. It's called

81
00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:52,960
Speaker 1: The Mad Scientist Podcast. Chris Cogwell is a longtime vet

82
00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,880
Speaker 1: of the UFO community. He's got his stripes, but not

83
00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:58,320
Speaker 1: just in the world of ufology. He also has his

84
00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:02,159
Speaker 1: stripes in the Akad demic towers, the Ivory one's you

85
00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:05,720
Speaker 1: remember those, Matt, I do. He has a PhD and

86
00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:08,880
Speaker 1: material science, and so he spends a lot of time

87
00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:13,039
Speaker 1: looking at the hard science and data behind reports of

88
00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:17,320
Speaker 1: anomalous things in the sky or your favorite things in

89
00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:20,960
Speaker 1: the water, UFOs and usos alike. Maybe we'll have him

90
00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:22,960
Speaker 1: on the show one day. But if you are interested

91
00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:28,520
Speaker 1: in looking more into the hard science rather than the

92
00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:32,800
Speaker 1: anecdotes that are so ubiquitous in the world of UFO reporting,

93
00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:36,240
Speaker 1: then we would highly recommend the Mad Scientist podcast.

94
00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:40,839
Speaker 2: Dude. Chris Cogswell has a PhD in chemical engineering with

95
00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:45,320
Speaker 2: a focus on nano materials for absorption and separations.

96
00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:51,480
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, what I know? Whoosh right? And here's the thing, Matt,

97
00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:56,560
Speaker 1: he's the nicest guy and he's incredibly knowledgeable. So I'd

98
00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:58,920
Speaker 1: love to get him on the show to talk about

99
00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:02,800
Speaker 1: the case pieces that he feels have the most sand,

100
00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:07,000
Speaker 1: the cases that he feels are the most compelling. But yep,

101
00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:11,120
Speaker 1: that was Los Angeles. Almost wish I had stayed because

102
00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,919
Speaker 1: it is here in Atlanta, Georgia, where we record the podcast.

103
00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:19,119
Speaker 1: It is the weather is best described as tepid soup.

104
00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:23,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, Yeah, running into what do we call it,

105
00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:27,240
Speaker 2: a soaking wet blanket that is one hundred degrees and

106
00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:29,880
Speaker 2: you're just walking into the blanket at all times when

107
00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:31,200
Speaker 2: you're moving forward.

108
00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:32,719
Speaker 1: And it clings to your skin.

109
00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:36,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, everywhere, then the mosquitoes.

110
00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:39,400
Speaker 1: And then the mosquitoes arrive. Yes, yes, right on Q.

111
00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,440
Speaker 1: So if you're listening to this and you are in

112
00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:48,800
Speaker 1: the southeast of the United States, good luck. And as

113
00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:51,279
Speaker 1: they say on Mitchell and Webb, remain.

114
00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:53,960
Speaker 2: Indoors, Remain calm and indoors.

115
00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,720
Speaker 1: Yes, very good. Tell us about your adventures. How has

116
00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:01,720
Speaker 1: the weather changed over time, maybe over the year or

117
00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:05,359
Speaker 1: since you were a we tyke of your own. You

118
00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:07,200
Speaker 1: don't have to wait for the whole podcast and forget.

119
00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:09,680
Speaker 1: You can pause and you can call us now to

120
00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:10,800
Speaker 1: let us know what you think.

121
00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,280
Speaker 2: Yes, but make sure you pull over before you do

122
00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:14,960
Speaker 2: so if you're driving.

123
00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:17,960
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, this is not a This is not a

124
00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,320
Speaker 1: yolo moment now it is now.

125
00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:22,960
Speaker 2: It is yep, right now is a yolo moment. Now

126
00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:25,280
Speaker 2: it's gone so too bad. I hope you caught a

127
00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:27,120
Speaker 2: hold of that while it occurred.

128
00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:29,480
Speaker 1: Now you're a cursed to live many times.

129
00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,880
Speaker 2: That's correct. So what do you say, Ben, Let's let's

130
00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,360
Speaker 2: give them the phone number. We are one eight three

131
00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:40,720
Speaker 2: three s std WYTK. Seriously leave a message. We will

132
00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:46,000
Speaker 2: see it. Somebody I'm not gonna name names. Jennifer left

133
00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:51,520
Speaker 2: eight messages last night, eight consecutive messages starting around eleven

134
00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:53,160
Speaker 2: o'clock in PM.

135
00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:55,360
Speaker 1: That's great. So it sounds like we have another call

136
00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:57,800
Speaker 1: in show in the future.

137
00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:00,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a whole episode of just Jennifer, like addressing

138
00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:01,320
Speaker 2: Jennifer's concerns.

139
00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:02,640
Speaker 1: Should we call it just Jennifer?

140
00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:03,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just Jennifer.

141
00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,280
Speaker 1: Jennifer. I hope that you are okay with those messages

142
00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:11,640
Speaker 1: being mentioned on air. If not, this is your time

143
00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,040
Speaker 1: to let us know at the number of Matt and

144
00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:16,720
Speaker 1: I already repeated. So we're talking a little bit about

145
00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:20,320
Speaker 1: the future. But today's episode is largely centered on the past.

146
00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:25,240
Speaker 1: William Faulkner, the author, not just some guy. William Faulkner

147
00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,160
Speaker 1: was fond of saying the past isn't dead, it isn't

148
00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,040
Speaker 1: even past. And that's something that's come up on this

149
00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,240
Speaker 1: show before. Because while it might sound like one of

150
00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:37,240
Speaker 1: those clever, glib quips that people say on a late

151
00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:40,720
Speaker 1: night talk show, there is serious grit to this notion.

152
00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:45,920
Speaker 1: The discipline that we call history is not some pursuit

153
00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:50,920
Speaker 1: of static, set in stone events. It's an attempted understanding.

154
00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:56,280
Speaker 1: The discipline instead is, at its best, a conversation between

155
00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:59,280
Speaker 1: the present and the past, between the living and the dead.

156
00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:03,800
Speaker 1: Is alive, and like all living things, history appears to

157
00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,600
Speaker 1: change over time simply because of our understanding of it.

158
00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,880
Speaker 1: And I know this sounds abstract, but the effects are concrete,

159
00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:14,160
Speaker 1: and they are very real. Research has proven things that

160
00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:19,439
Speaker 1: were once considered myths or legends were indeed real people, places,

161
00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,840
Speaker 1: and events. This is not one hundred percent consistent, but

162
00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:28,840
Speaker 1: this happens frequently enough that we can as a species

163
00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:33,920
Speaker 1: surmise that we have no real we have no real

164
00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:39,480
Speaker 1: standing upon which to base our confidence in the story

165
00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,839
Speaker 1: of humanity or the story of the planet. In a

166
00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:43,439
Speaker 1: lot of ways.

167
00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:48,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, besides the best efforts of archaeologists and historians who

168
00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:51,520
Speaker 2: are attempting to track all that stuff down. Again, it's

169
00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,640
Speaker 2: just the best version that we know at this moment.

170
00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:58,240
Speaker 1: Right right, which is how all science should work. So

171
00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:03,760
Speaker 1: examples that are going to be very familiar to a

172
00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,040
Speaker 1: lot to a lot of us longtime listeners out there,

173
00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,840
Speaker 1: the cilicanth that's living history, that was for a long time,

174
00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:14,520
Speaker 1: considered extinct. For a long time, considered a cryptid, very

175
00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:16,760
Speaker 1: well known to the people who had lived in the

176
00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,640
Speaker 1: area for thousands of thousands of years. But then Western

177
00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:22,400
Speaker 1: people found it and said, oh, we rediscovered this once

178
00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:23,200
Speaker 1: extinct creature.

179
00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:25,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, again to the knowledge of the people who keep

180
00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:27,040
Speaker 2: the records, it was gone.

181
00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:31,400
Speaker 1: Right, That's very important distinction. And then the other famous

182
00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,160
Speaker 1: example we often cite would be the city of Troy,

183
00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:39,400
Speaker 1: which is the perfect example. Until fairly recently, you know,

184
00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:44,079
Speaker 1: in the past few hundred years, Troy was considered a myth,

185
00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:47,280
Speaker 1: an entirely made up thing. There were people who were

186
00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:53,760
Speaker 1: creating huge academic research initiatives on Troy as a metaphor

187
00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:56,560
Speaker 1: for something, yeah, or what was Troy a code name

188
00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:58,760
Speaker 1: for or whatever. It turns out there was a real

189
00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,720
Speaker 1: city of Troy. This guy is not a professional archaeologist,

190
00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:05,120
Speaker 1: found it. People didn't believe them for a while, because

191
00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:07,920
Speaker 1: of course we'd all decided Troy was made up.

192
00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:09,920
Speaker 2: That's right. And as we're going to find out a

193
00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:14,080
Speaker 2: little later today in this episode, another find that was

194
00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:17,640
Speaker 2: not initially discovered by any kind of archaeologist or someone

195
00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,640
Speaker 2: going out to study it. It was just stumbled upon. And similarly,

196
00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,680
Speaker 2: we just found a story coming out of the Kurdistan

197
00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:29,000
Speaker 2: region of Iraq where there was a brand new palace

198
00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,680
Speaker 2: that was discovered because of drought there was occurring in

199
00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:34,520
Speaker 2: a reservoir.

200
00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,760
Speaker 1: There, yeah, the Musil Dam reservoir on the banks of

201
00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:42,240
Speaker 1: the Tigris River. As we were coming into record today,

202
00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:44,760
Speaker 1: we learned about this. Maya seth. Did you guys hear

203
00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:49,480
Speaker 1: about this? Okay, So there's a palace. It's almost three thousand,

204
00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,400
Speaker 1: five hundred years old. We never would have found it

205
00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:59,400
Speaker 1: except for the drought that dramatically lowered water levels. It

206
00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:04,160
Speaker 1: appears to be a palace from the Matani Empire, which

207
00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:07,520
Speaker 1: is one of the least researched empires of the ancient

208
00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,640
Speaker 1: Near East. We had no idea it existed. No, we're

209
00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:15,280
Speaker 1: not sure we as a species not us recording. We're

210
00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:21,120
Speaker 1: not sure when it went to ruin, how it ended

211
00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:25,360
Speaker 1: up underwater in this dam, and we don't know exactly

212
00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:29,520
Speaker 1: what we will learn about this. This is where this

213
00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:34,400
Speaker 1: is interesting because this is where archaeology and folklore may

214
00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,800
Speaker 1: may come to collaborate, kind of have an avengers assemble

215
00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:43,480
Speaker 1: thing you know, happening just like in a Marvel movie,

216
00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:48,240
Speaker 1: because this is where some folklorist and anthropologist may be

217
00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:52,240
Speaker 1: able to glean some knowledge or leads from oral history,

218
00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,520
Speaker 1: which I think it's downplayed a lot, but it leads

219
00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:56,320
Speaker 1: us to some important things, you know.

220
00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,240
Speaker 2: Oh definitely, And not to get away from that too much,

221
00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:01,000
Speaker 2: but one of the cool things that was found there

222
00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:05,079
Speaker 2: were these ten clay tablets that actually had Cuneiform written

223
00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,120
Speaker 2: on them. They were still preserved after being underwater for

224
00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:11,439
Speaker 2: that long, which was somewhat surprising to me. But again,

225
00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,760
Speaker 2: as we're going to learn in this episode, water and

226
00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:18,160
Speaker 2: certain types of water have a way of preserving like

227
00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,200
Speaker 2: the pH balance of the water, what else is like

228
00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,520
Speaker 2: inside that water as far as plant life and material go,

229
00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:26,720
Speaker 2: can preserve the heck out of things.

230
00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:30,959
Speaker 1: We also learned some very gross things about Florida. Yeah,

231
00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:34,600
Speaker 1: just climate wise, not a statement about the state nor

232
00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,760
Speaker 1: the people living there. And if you're listening, thanks for

233
00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:41,400
Speaker 1: tuning in. This may be news to you. In today's episode,

234
00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:44,280
Speaker 1: you see, we are going to explore a bizarre example

235
00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:48,240
Speaker 1: of hidden history, one not in the Middle East. Instead,

236
00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,440
Speaker 1: it's going to be in the comparatively speaking, the backyard

237
00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:55,640
Speaker 1: of the West. Right our tail begins on an ordinary

238
00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,160
Speaker 1: Florida day near the intersection of Interstate ninety five and

239
00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:02,520
Speaker 1: State Road fifty. This is fairly close to the Cape

240
00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:07,840
Speaker 1: Canaveral Air Force Station in the nineteen eighties. This intersection

241
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:10,080
Speaker 1: is this sort of place you drive by without a

242
00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,640
Speaker 1: second look, especially if you're in the sweltering days of summer,

243
00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:15,679
Speaker 1: because we have to remember the air turns to soup

244
00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:16,520
Speaker 1: and Florida too.

245
00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:21,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just it's a huge interstate and a state road. Okay, great, right,

246
00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:22,600
Speaker 2: maybe there's a gas station.

247
00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:27,080
Speaker 1: Not really a photo opportunity. If you drove by on

248
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:31,120
Speaker 1: the right day in nineteen eighty two, you might note

249
00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,960
Speaker 1: the construction occurring as crews work to clear the nearby

250
00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:39,720
Speaker 1: land and build what would later become the Windover Farm's subdivision.

251
00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,320
Speaker 1: You might even if you're slow enough, your eyes are

252
00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:47,280
Speaker 1: sharp and you're on the lookout for some reason. If

253
00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:50,240
Speaker 1: you're a very alert driver, you might even see a

254
00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:55,040
Speaker 1: backo operator named Steve Vanderjockt who was working to clear

255
00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:58,320
Speaker 1: out an area around a nearby pond.

256
00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:02,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was just on his back hoe doing everything

257
00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:05,080
Speaker 2: he was supposed to be doing, uh, clearing out part

258
00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:07,560
Speaker 2: of the Again, it's kind of a bog This pond

259
00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:11,840
Speaker 2: that we're talking about is it's swamps, marshy, swampy. It's

260
00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,640
Speaker 2: just that kind of Florida. It reminds me of the

261
00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:18,000
Speaker 2: Everglades a little bit, but it's it's a little different.

262
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,480
Speaker 2: So anyway, he's just going, he's using his back hoe

263
00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,480
Speaker 2: and oh, you know what this would be. This would

264
00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:25,120
Speaker 2: be a perfect Florida man story.

265
00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,000
Speaker 1: This would be a perfect Florida man man's story. Yeah,

266
00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:28,640
Speaker 1: let's get.

267
00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:31,760
Speaker 2: It a try. Okay, Florida man's back ho stumbles upon

268
00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:33,400
Speaker 2: ancient skull.

269
00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:37,680
Speaker 1: There we go. I also like attributing the action to

270
00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:41,120
Speaker 1: the backo because it sounds as if he just left

271
00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:41,640
Speaker 1: it running.

272
00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:43,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, something exactly.

273
00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:47,000
Speaker 1: So it's true. In nineteen eighty two, Steve found what

274
00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,120
Speaker 1: while he was cleaning stuff out, he saw what he

275
00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:54,920
Speaker 1: thought was maybe around brown rock, and a rock would

276
00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,920
Speaker 1: be unusual in this terrain. So he stops working and

277
00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,440
Speaker 1: he starts digging through through the muck and the mud

278
00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:04,320
Speaker 1: and the swampy stuff that you're mentioning. Matt the mucky muck,

279
00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,520
Speaker 1: the mucky muck. That's the technical term and he picks

280
00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:09,600
Speaker 1: up this object. He makes it way over and he

281
00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:11,760
Speaker 1: picks it up, wipes off some of the stuff. You

282
00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:14,480
Speaker 1: can't see it, folks, but I'm miming his actions here.

283
00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:18,760
Speaker 1: And then he turns around this object, this smooth, round rock,

284
00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:24,760
Speaker 1: to find too equally round empty eye sockets staring back

285
00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:28,320
Speaker 1: at him. And that's when Steve realizes this is not

286
00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:33,120
Speaker 1: a rock. This is a skull. And he's not an expert,

287
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:34,520
Speaker 1: but it looks pretty old.

288
00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:38,240
Speaker 2: Well yeah, it looks a little old, but again, who

289
00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,720
Speaker 2: knows how old it is. So imagine you're Steve and

290
00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,480
Speaker 2: you find a skull while you're working. You have to

291
00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,560
Speaker 2: call the police and report finding a skull because there's

292
00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,560
Speaker 2: a possibility that this may be, you know, a homicide

293
00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,560
Speaker 2: or a missing person or something to that effect. So

294
00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:57,280
Speaker 2: that was exactly what he did. Then they continued looking

295
00:16:57,280 --> 00:16:59,680
Speaker 2: because they're still working in this area. It's not like

296
00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,320
Speaker 2: you just immediately stop all the construction there because of

297
00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,920
Speaker 2: a skull. Now, yeah, you definitely pause for a moment again,

298
00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:09,960
Speaker 2: call the police, and then maybe keep going. But they

299
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,960
Speaker 2: started finding a lot more skulls, a lot more bones.

300
00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,840
Speaker 2: Again inside the bucket of the baco where he was.

301
00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:21,399
Speaker 1: Working, right. The site supervisor is the first person that

302
00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:25,360
Speaker 1: Steve contacts and they say, okay, is this a murder?

303
00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,320
Speaker 1: We have to call the police. And then they look

304
00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:31,720
Speaker 1: in the bucket of Steve's bacco and they find more skulls.

305
00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:34,439
Speaker 1: So he had apparently been digging up some remains before

306
00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:38,679
Speaker 1: he was aware of it, right, And when they realized

307
00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:44,680
Speaker 1: they were looking at multiple bodies, they immediately knew something

308
00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:47,400
Speaker 1: was up. Now, this is where two things could have happened,

309
00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,560
Speaker 1: and it all depends on a fellow named Jim Swan.

310
00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:54,800
Speaker 1: Jim Swan was the developer of the subdivision, and he

311
00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:58,879
Speaker 1: could he could do one of two things. He could,

312
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,320
Speaker 1: like many unscrewed list developers, just pay off the crew,

313
00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,240
Speaker 1: suppress the news of the find, and carry over with

314
00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:10,560
Speaker 1: the construction of Windover Farms. And that is you know,

315
00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,200
Speaker 1: like that's a plot point in the horror film Poultergeist, right, well,

316
00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,480
Speaker 1: debatably the horror themed family film Poultergeist.

317
00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:21,600
Speaker 2: There you go, yes, building on top of an ancient

318
00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:23,640
Speaker 2: burial ground of sorts.

319
00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:27,400
Speaker 1: Right, And that only enters fiction because that has really

320
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,359
Speaker 1: happened in multiple instances, not just here in the US,

321
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,720
Speaker 1: but many places abroad. Jim, for one reason or another,

322
00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,640
Speaker 1: hopefully because he's a decent human being. Maybe because he's

323
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:40,359
Speaker 1: afraid of legal action, we don't know. Jim decides to

324
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:42,879
Speaker 1: halt all the work, just like you were talking about, Matt.

325
00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:45,680
Speaker 1: He says, Okay, this is not a pause. We're stopping everything.

326
00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,800
Speaker 1: Shut it down. We have to contact the experts. We

327
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,080
Speaker 1: have to determine the provenance of these bones. More importantly,

328
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,600
Speaker 1: I have to figure out what we do next. Yeah,

329
00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:59,119
Speaker 1: I've got millions sunk in the subdivision. Probably at this point,

330
00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:03,399
Speaker 1: you know, I was hoping that I could, you know,

331
00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:05,160
Speaker 1: construct it and not go bankrupt.

332
00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,240
Speaker 2: But maybe there's another way here, There's something else to do.

333
00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,639
Speaker 2: So he immediately reaches out to Florida State University to

334
00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:13,880
Speaker 2: see if there's anyone on staff there that can come

335
00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:18,359
Speaker 2: over and help assist identifying these bones. And they speak

336
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:22,920
Speaker 2: to doctor Glenn Dran d O R A N. And

337
00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,520
Speaker 2: again he's his staff member of the Florida State University,

338
00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,800
Speaker 2: an archaeologist. He shows up on the scene and initially

339
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:31,879
Speaker 2: he's looking at these bones and he's thinking, oh, wow,

340
00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:34,000
Speaker 2: these are preserved pretty well.

341
00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:35,840
Speaker 1: They are old.

342
00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,360
Speaker 2: I can tell they're old. And one of The first

343
00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:40,720
Speaker 2: things he sees are the teeth, and he notices that

344
00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:45,200
Speaker 2: they've been ground down, naturally ground down, just through wear

345
00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:47,440
Speaker 2: and tear, not the way you know, if someone was

346
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:51,000
Speaker 2: going to physically injure you and hurt your teeth or

347
00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:54,680
Speaker 2: something or yeah, it was just natural wear and tear

348
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,760
Speaker 2: on the teeth. But to the point where he he

349
00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,879
Speaker 2: realized that from an art cheologists standpoint, these must be

350
00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,680
Speaker 2: thousands of years old, or at least that's what he.

351
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:10,520
Speaker 1: Believes, right. He surmised initially from his own just on

352
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:14,040
Speaker 1: the scene assessment, that these bones were from a Native

353
00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:20,280
Speaker 1: American population, according to him, due primarily to the dentation

354
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:23,359
Speaker 1: and due to what he thought that told him about

355
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,520
Speaker 1: the age, So he said, these are perhaps a thousand

356
00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:30,240
Speaker 1: years old. He arranged for carbon dating tests. This was

357
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:34,840
Speaker 1: financed by Swan and Swan's company EKS Corporation, and they

358
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,760
Speaker 1: were shocked by the results. What were those results? Will

359
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,160
Speaker 1: tell you after a word from our sponsor.

360
00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:52,600
Speaker 2: Okay, now, when we left you, we were talking about

361
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,520
Speaker 2: duran and the carbon dating tests that we're going to

362
00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,840
Speaker 2: be done on the bones and the teeth and everything

363
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,560
Speaker 2: that were found there at the Windover site. And there's

364
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:08,440
Speaker 2: the company Eks Corporation. They are doing this, this carbondating,

365
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,720
Speaker 2: and they were shocked when they realized the bones were

366
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:16,119
Speaker 2: indeed more than a thousand years old. In fact, the

367
00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,960
Speaker 2: human remains uncovered at this site were somewhere between seven

368
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:25,280
Speaker 2: thousand and eight thousand years old. That makes them thirty

369
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:29,320
Speaker 2: two hundred years older than King Tuton Common and two

370
00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:32,359
Speaker 2: thousand years older than the Great Pyramids of Giza themselves

371
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:38,879
Speaker 2: in Egypt. It's incredible to imagine in Florida bones of

372
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,720
Speaker 2: this age were found and then carbondated to show that yes,

373
00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:44,200
Speaker 2: in fact, they are that old.

374
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:48,199
Speaker 1: And these were also modern human beings. This was not

375
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:52,520
Speaker 1: one of the early mixtapes of humanity like Neanderthal or

376
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:56,959
Speaker 1: something like that. Directus right right right, exactly seven thousand

377
00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,159
Speaker 1: and eight thousand years old. This is on the east

378
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 1: coast of Florida. Everything that is commonly accepted about the

379
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,760
Speaker 1: spread of the human species argues that the human species

380
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,760
Speaker 1: by and large arrived at North and South America what

381
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:14,800
Speaker 1: we call those two continents today, by crossing the baring

382
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:19,400
Speaker 1: Land Bridge over what is now the Bearing Strait, and

383
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 1: that in case anyone's not familiar, that is, in the

384
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,440
Speaker 1: most opposite corner of the continent that one could imagine.

385
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:32,760
Speaker 1: It is in the far far far northwest and Cape Canaveral,

386
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:37,520
Speaker 1: far far southeast. So what's going on. They spent two

387
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,440
Speaker 1: years trying to dig this up. Overall, there were three

388
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,879
Speaker 1: archaeological digs conducted there between nineteen eighty four and nineteen

389
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 1: eighty six. They ended up finding more than two hundred

390
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:53,040
Speaker 1: distinct intact burials. And you'll hear you'll hear a couple

391
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,399
Speaker 1: of different numbers thrown around. One will be they found

392
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,360
Speaker 1: more than two hundred burials. One will be like, they

393
00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:02,480
Speaker 1: found more than one hundred and sixty eight bodies. Yeah,

394
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,919
Speaker 1: and part of that is because of the extreme length

395
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 1: of time that these folks were literally poor choice of

396
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 1: words on my part, bogged down, you know what I mean.

397
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 1: Things shift, the bones may get jumbled. But the weird

398
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 1: thing is that despite being in there for almost ten

399
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,919
Speaker 1: thousand years, the better part of ten thousand years, the

400
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 1: bodies have been ritualistically buried, and with maybe a few exceptions,

401
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 1: they were all placed in the same position. They were

402
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 1: in a fetal position, lying on their left side, their

403
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:40,000
Speaker 1: heads were pointed west and their faces up to the north.

404
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 1: In some cases the necks were broken to get this. Yeah, God,

405
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,879
Speaker 1: we don't know why. We can speculate it best that

406
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 1: this shows us some sort of belief in the afterlife

407
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,399
Speaker 1: and ritualistic burial. The deceased were also wrapped in what

408
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 1: archaeologists believe is the oldest existing woven fabric in the world,

409
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 1: which is you know, when you think of the oldest

410
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 1: thing in the world, you think of something in Africa

411
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 1: and in the fertile somewhere near the right or maybe yeah,

412
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 1: or maybe a Middle East, right, think of something on

413
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 1: that continent or in the Middle East. You don't really

414
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,679
Speaker 1: think and it's not a ding again on Florida, but

415
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 1: you don't think, Oh, yeah, Florida, that's where it is.

416
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, the oldest fabric ever in Florida. In my mind,

417
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 2: it would just be in an old beach towel, the

418
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 2: first one that was ever used, you know, created in

419
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 2: like Myrtle Beach or Daytona beach or something.

420
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 1: Wouldn't it be amazing if it also had an ancient

421
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 1: drawing of a cartoon mouse. Oh, or it's hurdle or

422
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 1: a turtle. Better, No, no, let's find let's find both of them.

423
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,400
Speaker 1: Let's just write this let's just write this story.

424
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 2: It just says salt life on it.

425
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,359
Speaker 1: It just says salt life. Will write this story, will

426
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 1: bury it somewhere. Yeah, and thousands of years from now.

427
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 2: A Florida man will discover with his backo boom full circle.

428
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 1: So well, that's our show, folks, thanks for turning. I

429
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 1: think we did some meaningful work today. Yet we did

430
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 1: find that there were grave goods though, that's what they're called.

431
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's not even the most odd thing that

432
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 2: was found here, the oldest fabric, because it's the way

433
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 2: that this stuff was used, and it's puzzling to me.

434
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 2: Help me understand this a little better, Ben, because my

435
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 2: understanding is that the bodies were actually submerged into the

436
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:38,159
Speaker 2: water on purpose using some piece of technology, essentially like

437
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:39,919
Speaker 2: a tool of some sort.

438
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:46,159
Speaker 1: Yeah. So they were buried in this fetal position with

439
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:51,679
Speaker 1: certain body parts corresponding to certain directions, and then branches

440
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: would be lashed together over them to create a tripod

441
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,440
Speaker 1: which kept the bodies in that feel position from floating

442
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 1: up and to prevent them from floating to the top

443
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 1: of that tripod. They had this this woven fabric is

444
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 1: essentially functioning as a funeral shroud, and a wooden steak

445
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 1: would be hammered in or somehow thrust through the fabric

446
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,159
Speaker 1: of the shroud which I'm just calling it a shroud,

447
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 1: into the bed of the pond so that they would

448
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 1: they being the bodies would not float up to the

449
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 1: top of the wooden formation that was keeping them submerged.

450
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 1: And the reason they had to do this is because

451
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 1: when the body would decompose, it would begin to float

452
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,160
Speaker 1: because it would begin to fill with gas and air.

453
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 1: The practical step here is that it ultimately protects the

454
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,880
Speaker 1: bodies from the many many scavengers in the area, mostly animals,

455
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 1: but there would probably be some grave robbers understandably as well,

456
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 1: and it kept them in that intended again, very purposeful position.

457
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 2: Yea, seems like a ritualistic, perhaps religious position. Man. That

458
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 2: to me is fascinating, just the concept that that long

459
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:12,919
Speaker 2: ago you would again, maybe this is that thing we

460
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 2: always talk about when we discuss European settlers going to

461
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 2: parts of Africa and discovering these ancient ruins and they think, oh,

462
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 2: there's no way that they could have an understanding about

463
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:32,679
Speaker 2: the certain geometry here or this or that, like terrible

464
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,399
Speaker 2: belief the institutionalized racism that has occurred over all those years.

465
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:39,640
Speaker 2: I worry that I'm having a little bit of that

466
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 2: when I'm trying to imagine, you know, people eight thousand

467
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 2: years ago creating an underwater burial almost to preserve the bodies.

468
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 2: Maybe perhaps they had no understanding that they were actually

469
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,640
Speaker 2: preserving the bodies by doing this, but that's in fact

470
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 2: what they were doing using all of these tools and mechanisms.

471
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's baffling, and it's also really really.

472
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 1: Cool, right Yeah. The institutionalized racism that has to a

473
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 1: great degree stifled scientific progress for centuries, exactly, it's still

474
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 1: alive and well at a lot of places, and sometimes unintentional.

475
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 1: I would argue, I saw a little bit of that

476
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: at Alien con to be candid with you, but you're

477
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:33,880
Speaker 1: right here. Generally speaking, when people inter or get rid

478
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 1: of the bodies of their dead and their loved ones

479
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 1: or even their hated ones, the thing is that you

480
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 1: don't want to see them forever, Especially if you love

481
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 1: someone or if they're meaningful to your life, you want

482
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 1: to help them into the afterlife. That's the way it's

483
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 1: usually phrased, and that will be like by burial maybe

484
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: in some parts of the world there will be a

485
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 1: you'll be consumed by carnivorous birds, which I think is

486
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 1: sky Burial is probably the coolest cremation, right, things like that.

487
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: The idea is that you don't want them to come back.

488
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 1: You don't want to see if their software is gone,

489
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: you don't want to be haunted by their hardware, which

490
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: is why it's such a such an ancient psyop to

491
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: take the bodies of dead enemies and display them where

492
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: they're living can see them.

493
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 2: But then others want to preserve the body as much

494
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 2: as they can because the belief is that that body

495
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 2: will have to come back.

496
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, that's it, and to certain rules. Right, So

497
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 1: that's why we have the preservation of organs in some societies.

498
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: That's and also when when we go into a secular world,

499
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 1: a lot of times there's this interpretation, or I would say,

500
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 1: this assumption that burial rituals are all religiously based, which

501
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 1: is not the case. I mean, think about all the

502
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: time spent embalming Linen. You know, in the days of

503
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 1: the USSR. It was not really a religion, but it

504
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 1: took the place of a religion because it was a symbol.

505
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 2: You know, linin, not linen. In my head, I heard linen.

506
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: Oh yes, sorry, else and perhaps my Tennessee accent, and

507
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: not John Lennon. It was Linen and linen in Linen, Yes,

508
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 1: in Leningrad. That's right. Yeah, all right, we solved the case.

509
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: But we're saying all this to give maybe a little

510
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 1: bit more anthropological perspective. One of the most important points

511
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 1: you made, Matt, that we shouldn't skip over is whether

512
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: or not the people who were entering folks this way

513
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 1: knew it. What they ended up doing was preserving the

514
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 1: bodies of their loved ones for thousands and thousands of

515
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: years because the peat bog is an anaerobic environment, which

516
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 1: means that a lot of the rules of decomposition, which

517
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 1: are air and oxygen dependent will will not play out

518
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 1: the same way. Also, the fact that pete bog means

519
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:09,719
Speaker 1: that there's a pH balance that's tremendously conducive to preserving things.

520
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's not a lot you know, if it's

521
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 2: in the ocean or something or somewhere that has occurrent,

522
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 2: there's not a lot of physical movement occurring there. And

523
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 2: the biggest variable is the rising and lowering of the

524
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 2: water essentially in these places depending on drought or the

525
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 2: amount of rain, and that pH balance too. Man ah go,

526
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 2: it's so cool to me, Okay, So.

527
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 1: It feels purposeful, right, it's done something with all those factors, Like.

528
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 2: We've been doing this for so long. We know that

529
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 2: this is the place to bury people, and this is

530
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 2: how we will do it. And though it's been ten,

531
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 2: twelve thousand, fifteen thousand years.

532
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 1: At least, the practice right and the site itself, as

533
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: will come to find, was active for a very very

534
00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: long time before it was forgotten and almost became the

535
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 1: non consensual foundation of a suburb. We know that the

536
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 1: environment of Florida was very challenging. It remains very challenging

537
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 1: for preservation. We can explore that in a little bit.

538
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 1: Right now, let's talk about the life of the people

539
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 1: who lived in this prehistoric time. About half of the

540
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 1: remains found at Windover again, that's anywhere from one hundred

541
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 1: and sixty eight to two hundred something people were children,

542
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: not all. The oldest people found in the site were

543
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: around sixty years old, unlike the human remains found in

544
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 1: European bogs. You know, you might think of something like

545
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 1: Ireland or Scotland or something. Unlike those remains. The bodies

546
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 1: in Florida were only skeletons. There's no flesh on the bones.

547
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 1: And again a lot of that has to do with

548
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 1: the climate of Florida.

549
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 2: You're gonna say, Yeah, the temperature is going to make

550
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 2: a big difference there.

551
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 1: And as you get closer to the equator, you'll see

552
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: you know, increasingly in hospitable environments for preservation. But also

553
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: you know, think of think of how rare these places are.

554
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 1: But if you go back a few centuries when there

555
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 1: was much more forest land and jungle land in the world,

556
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: those ecosystems, those biomes are hungry, they eat things. There's

557
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 1: still eating cities. I think a lot of us would

558
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 1: be surprised at how much maintenance goes on into just

559
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: keeping even what you think of as a metropolis alive

560
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: from one year to the next. Yeah.

561
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 2: Can you imagine in Atlanta if we didn't have a

562
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 2: kudzoo team going out there every day working their tails off.

563
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 1: I love the Kudzuo man. I think about it a lot,

564
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: and how how quickly it would grow. Yeah, I'm just kidding.

565
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 2: I don't think there's an official Atlanta Kudzoo team. Maybe

566
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 2: there is. If you work for the official Atlanta Kudzoo

567
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 2: what do we call it.

568
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 1: Kudzuo task Force? Yeah?

569
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, let us know the cats out of everyone.

570
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, they're definitely they're definitely ongoing wars. Kudzu

571
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: is an excellent example their ongoing efforts to prevent the

572
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,839
Speaker 1: spread of cuts, which is technically an invasive species, right,

573
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:20,319
Speaker 1: but adapted amazingly well. So we know a little bit

574
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 1: about what these people's lives were like. But the same

575
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 1: environment in Florida, which makes it so difficult to preserve

576
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 1: bodies or buildings, let alone books and so on, also

577
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 1: teaches us about how they were buried because despite the

578
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 1: fact that there was no flesh on the bones, about

579
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 1: half of the skulls ninety ninety one or so contained

580
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 1: brain matter. It's pretty gruesome, but it also means that

581
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 1: they were buried within at the very most, at the

582
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 1: very upper limit, they were in the pond, interred within

583
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 1: forty eight hours of expiring, because if they were out

584
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 1: in the fl Florida environment anytime after that, their brain

585
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 1: would have liquefied. Wow, because that's what Florida does to

586
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 1: dead people.

587
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 2: Mmm.

588
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:09,400
Speaker 1: It's true.

589
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 2: Well, we also got to look at their stomach contents.

590
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 1: Right, and that's tricky because you're saying, well, there's no flesh. Yeah,

591
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 1: we're approximating because it looked like it was digested. We

592
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 1: learned that for one one corpse, they have been eating

593
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 1: primarily fish and berries, and the ground down teeth that

594
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier, Matt show us similar to It's the

595
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 1: thing Egyptologists have found before as well. In places where

596
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 1: people live around a lot of sand, the sand gets

597
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:44,240
Speaker 1: into your food and it naturally grits down your teeth. Wow,

598
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 1: they didn't have cavities.

599
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 2: They didn't have cavities. Well well, and you have to

600
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 2: imagine it's only over a span of sixty years and

601
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 2: there's absolutely you know, no dental work being done. There's nothing,

602
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 2: there's no way to help clean or fix your teeth

603
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,439
Speaker 2: when things are going wrong in that sand just takes

604
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 2: it out quickly.

605
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. We also know that even though their lives were

606
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 1: very difficult, they were also very caring with their community.

607
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 1: And this is this is a big thing that maybe

608
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:18,839
Speaker 1: doesn't occur to a lot of people when we think

609
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:24,240
Speaker 1: of ancient societies, but one of the huge, huge, leaping

610
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 1: points or one of the one of the huge breakthroughs,

611
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 1: a watershed moment in evolution was the idea of caring

612
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:36,280
Speaker 1: for the injured and the dead, which is something higher

613
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 1: cognition entities do so not not necessarily just mammals, you

614
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 1: know what I mean. There's some birds that will care

615
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 1: for the injured, and of course there's cetaceans are still mammals,

616
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 1: but who knows, maybe there's an octopus hospital.

617
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe, But I see exactly what you're saying. In

618
00:36:55,560 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 2: an organized humanoid society, a human society, taking care of

619
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 2: someone who's incapacitated, who cannot contribute to, you know, the

620
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 2: the wealth essentially the health and wealth of your tribe,

621
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 2: your group, then you know, for a certain time, there's

622
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:18,239
Speaker 2: no reason to have that person besides to you know,

623
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 2: keep them around because you love them, right, or you

624
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 2: care about.

625
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 1: Them, or because you're a decent.

626
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:28,240
Speaker 2: Well yeah, but if you think about it from the

627
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:32,760
Speaker 2: most basic needs of a human, like a singular human

628
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 2: as well as a group of humans, that's a choice

629
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 2: that what you're saying is it only comes along with

630
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 2: the higher cognition, the really thinking about essentially good like

631
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 2: doing good.

632
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:47,879
Speaker 1: Well, I would say also this is going to sound

633
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 1: very cold. Biologically speaking, an individual human has zero value

634
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 1: unless something can reproduce a sexually. An individual of any

635
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 1: species has zero value in terms of the big picture.

636
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,360
Speaker 1: So a group things that can care for one another

637
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 1: in groups may lose a couple checkers games, but they

638
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 1: will win the chess game all you go, right, So

639
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 1: we do know that they were playing this chess game, right.

640
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 1: We found several examples of people who would have died

641
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,799
Speaker 1: quite quickly and probably quite painfully had they not have

642
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 1: folks caring for them, and this again is a huge

643
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,799
Speaker 1: hallmark of what we would call modern humanity.

644
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's an older woman and she was perhaps around

645
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 2: fifty years old. It's kind of an estimation there, but

646
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 2: she showed signs of having broken bones, like several of them,

647
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 2: to the point where this person is not going to

648
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 2: survive if it's eight thousand years ago. But she did

649
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 2: for a while at least while she's being taken care of.

650
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 2: The fractures occurred several years before she died, So that's

651
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:58,760
Speaker 2: how you know somebody was doing a lot for this person.

652
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 2: And it really means that there are other villagers, other

653
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 2: humans around her that helped her even when she could

654
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 2: no longer contribute, and that's really what we're saying. There

655
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 2: was another body of a fifteen year old boy, at

656
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 2: least again an estimated fifteen year old boy, that showed

657
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 2: he was a victim of spina bifida, which is something

658
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 2: intense to encounter in modern day With modern day medicine,

659
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 2: you can only imagine what it was like.

660
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 1: Then, right. Spina bifida is a birth defect that occurs

661
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 1: when the cord of your spine and your actual spine

662
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 1: don't form properly. It used to be considered a pediatric illness,

663
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 1: even relatively recently, meaning that if you survive into adulthood,

664
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 1: you would just still continue to see your pediatric doctor.

665
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 1: This kid made it to fifteen, so he was well

666
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 1: on his way to becoming an adult. They also saw

667
00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 1: various different tools. Perhaps one of the most heartbreaking things

668
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,360
Speaker 1: is that every single child that was buried there was

669
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 1: buried with a couple of toys. Wow, how much more

670
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:10,800
Speaker 1: human can you get? We have to ask ourselves, Okay,

671
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 1: these are people, but who were these people? Where did

672
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 1: they come from, and how did they get there? How,

673
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 1: perhaps even more importantly, did they become lost to time?

674
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 1: For more than seven thousand years, it's a questionable answer.

675
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 1: After a word from our sponsor, here's where it gets crazy.

676
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:37,799
Speaker 2: First, this was not a mass grave, just a place

677
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 2: where bodies were thrown just because someone had died and

678
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 2: it was done. We've already established that these bodies are

679
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 2: placed there on purpose and in a way that it

680
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 2: is meaningful.

681
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 1: It's not a massacre, it's not an all die. At

682
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 1: the same time, and.

683
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 2: We also know that this is likely not a matter

684
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 2: of some kind of sacrifice, some kind of ritual that

685
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 2: was done to put these people out of their misery,

686
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 2: or for worship of some other you know, deity or

687
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:07,879
Speaker 2: being or something like that.

688
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:12,720
Speaker 1: And we know this because of the way in which

689
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 1: they were interred and because of the the nature of

690
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 1: ritualistic human sacrifice usually indicates, or usually is predicated upon

691
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 1: a similar method of death to someone is you know,

692
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 1: ritualistically strangled by the thugy cult, or someone has is

693
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 1: vivisected right somewhere in mes America or something this or

694
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:43,359
Speaker 1: in the case of bogs in Europe, someone has their

695
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 1: throat cut and then they're tossed in a bog. Right,

696
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 1: this doesn't seem to be the case here. One of

697
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 1: the reasons, one of the biggest. Here's where it gets

698
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 1: crazy moments in this wind Over investigation, which has again

699
00:41:56,200 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 1: been going on since the early nineteen eighties, not eighteen

700
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,320
Speaker 1: eighties as far as we know, hinges on the concept

701
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 1: of DNA, and this goes back a little bit to

702
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 1: what you were talking about, Matt. You'll hear some folks,

703
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 1: including members of academia here in twenty nineteen, arguing that

704
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 1: the DNA tests conducted on the remains indicated that these

705
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 1: people were descended from Europeans rather than the Far Eastern

706
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 1: you know, the Far Eastern groups that migrated out of

707
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 1: Siberia right or through Siberia. This would be a huge discovery,

708
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 1: but the question is is it true. First we have

709
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:45,240
Speaker 1: to remember the only way they could find anything close

710
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 1: enough to try to analyze would be that brain matter

711
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 1: the marrow is probably long gone, and the DNA's rate

712
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 1: of decay makes it a lot like forget trying to

713
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 1: find a needle in a haystack. Trying to find a

714
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 1: lottery ticket in a haystack and hoping that it wins.

715
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:08,720
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and you have to find multiple lottery tickets

716
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 2: because you can't just test one subject and say, oh,

717
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 2: this whole group of people, they're definitely European.

718
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 1: Right, And in the past people have been way too

719
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:20,720
Speaker 1: quick to do that. There's a geneticist named Joseph Lorenz

720
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 1: from the Quarriel Institute for Medical Research. He was searching

721
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 1: for DNA markers that he thought were typical of Native Americans,

722
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 1: and the DNA samples taken from the bones of five

723
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 1: different people in Windover. So they did let me correct

724
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 1: myself there. They did find at least something in the

725
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 1: bones they could use. He didn't find what he was

726
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 1: looking for. He did not find those common markers he

727
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:46,439
Speaker 1: thought would be extant, and so he compared the wind

728
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:50,319
Speaker 1: Over DNA results. He had to present European populations, and

729
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:51,360
Speaker 1: this is what he said.

730
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 2: I went back to the screen and looked at the

731
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:58,879
Speaker 2: sequences again. The first person's DNA it looked European. When

732
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 2: I looked at the second one, it looked European. When

733
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 2: I looked at the third, the fourth, and the fifth

734
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,359
Speaker 2: it was slightly different from the first two, but they

735
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:09,400
Speaker 2: looked European.

736
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:15,919
Speaker 1: So there are three common presumptions that are inherent. They're

737
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 1: intrinsic in every interpretation of the wind over DNA. The

738
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:23,280
Speaker 1: first is the assumption that one combination of DNA haplogroups

739
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 1: typifies all Native American populations. It's demonstrably untrue. There's been

740
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 1: well documented Polynesian DNA material found in skeletons in northwest

741
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:38,760
Speaker 1: Mexico as well as southern California. There are early populations

742
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 1: of South America that also don't necessarily fit that assumption. Also,

743
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 1: there are no DNA text markers for a lot of

744
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 1: indigenous people in southeastern US. The research wasn't quite there

745
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 1: at the time. And then there's the Yuchi group, which

746
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 1: has consistently stated, again in folklore and the importance of

747
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 1: world storytelling, that their ancestors crossed the Atlantic to the

748
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 1: Savannah River. These are you'll hear them called the oldest

749
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 1: indigenous peoples in the Southeast. Their migration legend states that

750
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,800
Speaker 1: they found evidence of an earlier people who had lived

751
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 1: in the Savannah River basin before them. I think it's

752
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:26,399
Speaker 1: clutching at straws because that's anecdotal, you know what I mean,

753
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean there's not a grain of truth

754
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:33,279
Speaker 1: to it. And this whole DNA exploration is where things

755
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 1: get so sticky because for some more conspiratorially minded people,

756
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 1: this was seen as a gold mine. It was proof

757
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 1: that there could be some previously unidentified migration patterns in

758
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:50,359
Speaker 1: ancient human history. It's true there are. We're going to

759
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 1: find more as we learn more about the expansion of

760
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:58,319
Speaker 1: the species. But I don't know. There's a thing that

761
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,840
Speaker 1: used a lot of Weasley words language that we found

762
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:02,840
Speaker 1: describing this.

763
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:05,879
Speaker 2: And we've got a quote here, Yes, this comes from

764
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 2: about archaeology. Although scientists believed they had retrieved DNA from

765
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:13,360
Speaker 2: the fairly intact brain matter recovered from some of the

766
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 2: human burials, subsequent research has shown that the mt DNA

767
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:22,319
Speaker 2: lineages reported are absent in all other prehistoric and contemporary

768
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 2: Native American populations studied to date. Further attempts to retrieve

769
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 2: more DNA have failed, and an amplification study has shown

770
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:35,240
Speaker 2: that there is no analyzable DNA left at the Windover burials.

771
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 1: So let's unpack this quickly. What this shows is that

772
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 1: scientists did at one point get some DNA material from

773
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:49,720
Speaker 1: one or more of the brains, definitely more, one would hope,

774
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 1: and they found that the mitochondrial DNA lineage reported didn't

775
00:46:55,360 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 1: match what we knew about other Native American populations, right,

776
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:06,400
Speaker 1: So then they said, we've tried or other people have

777
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 1: tried to grab more DNA material and they can't get it,

778
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:12,360
Speaker 1: and we think there's no more left. So we shot

779
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:15,759
Speaker 1: our shot. Basically shot our shot, and we got more

780
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:16,920
Speaker 1: questions than answers.

781
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 2: However, this thing we just read from about archaeology, well

782
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 2: several people take exception to this, including someone a researcher

783
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:29,440
Speaker 2: named Gary Carson, and we have a quote from him.

784
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, he unpacks this stuff and he says, I've

785
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:34,759
Speaker 1: read this particular passage two or three times and it's

786
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,839
Speaker 1: a masterpiece of hand waving and misdirection. He's a little

787
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 1: steamed about it. Yeah, that last part was me. The

788
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:43,319
Speaker 1: article makes it sound like DNA wasn't discovered after all,

789
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:46,399
Speaker 1: but it goes on to say THEA DNA lineages were

790
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:51,239
Speaker 1: discovered that's mitochondrial DNA and subsequently analyzed, but then dismisses

791
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 1: the analysis because it doesn't match the expected results, specifically

792
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,279
Speaker 1: because it didn't connect the wind Over Bog people with

793
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 1: other prehistoric and contemperary Native American populations. In other words,

794
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:05,959
Speaker 1: according to Gary, the DNA results couldn't be accurate because

795
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 1: they didn't show that the bog people were Native Americans.

796
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 1: So he's he's not necessarily arguing some secret migration from

797
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:20,319
Speaker 1: some hitherto unmentioned land, but he is saying that these

798
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 1: people may be committing one of the one of the

799
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 1: big sins of critical thinking, which is throwing out stuff

800
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 1: that doesn't fit a preconceived notion. There's a facial reconstruction

801
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 1: project that you can you can see google wind over

802
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 1: a woman online and they don't they don't appear European.

803
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 1: But a lot of facial reconstruction like that is interpretive, right. Yeah.

804
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 1: I mean, we didn't know dinosaurs had feathers.

805
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:52,400
Speaker 2: We did for ever, but we figured it out because

806
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:56,840
Speaker 2: somebody just decided one day that they had feathers. That's honestly.

807
00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 1: What happened is that. What happened is like, dude, these

808
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 1: guys got feathers. Was you?

809
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 2: It was me?

810
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 1: I should have been on that call.

811
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:06,400
Speaker 2: When I grew up, dinosaurs were just all green or

812
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 2: brown or gray, no stripes. Yeah, eighties kids, dinosaurs are green, brown, gray,

813
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 2: maybe maybe a little tan light brown. But now they're

814
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 2: just multicolored. They got feathers. I don't believe it. I'm

815
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:23,399
Speaker 2: just kidding. I think it's wonderful what we're learning. Paleontologists

816
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 2: teaching you against some things. No, I love it.

817
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,880
Speaker 1: You think there should be a bright line between pokemon

818
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:28,759
Speaker 1: and dinosaurs.

819
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 2: No, no, I choose you pach so great.

820
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 1: So there are there are other opinions here, one that

821
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 1: argues one that bases its argument on the timeline. So

822
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 1: time estimates for the arrival of certain genomes or genetic

823
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:51,440
Speaker 1: material are twelve thou thirty six thousand years ago, depending

824
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 1: on the number of assumed founders, And this supports the

825
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 1: conclusion that people harboring this haplo group, this this weird

826
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 1: one that sticks out right, we're among the original founders

827
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 1: of Native American populations. To date, applogroup X, as this

828
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 1: guy William Holsworth is calling it has not been unambiguously

829
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:15,920
Speaker 1: identified in Asia, which would have been the origin point,

830
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:19,360
Speaker 1: and to this author raises the possibility that some of

831
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:24,719
Speaker 1: these Native American founding populations had ancestors somewhere else so

832
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:29,479
Speaker 1: ultimately came to what we recognize as Florida today through

833
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:33,279
Speaker 1: some other migration pattern. As the Internet likes to say,

834
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 1: big if true, Big if true, Big if true, But

835
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 1: is it true. At this point, it seems experts are

836
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 1: still debating the origin of the ancient windover population and occasionally,

837
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 1: if you read closely, accusing one another of having an agenda,

838
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 1: which is not at all unusual.

839
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:51,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's pretty darn common when it comes

840
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:52,279
Speaker 2: to things like.

841
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 1: This, and it's an important debate. It's one we should

842
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:59,359
Speaker 1: treat with extreme seriousness, primarily because of the point you raised, Matt,

843
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:02,360
Speaker 1: which is a fundamental point that is all too often

844
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 1: skipped over. The human species has a long, long, incredibly

845
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:13,759
Speaker 1: unfortunate history of institutionalized racism, attempting to shoehorn insert favorite

846
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:17,279
Speaker 1: group here into so many things, from pyramids to the

847
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 1: ruins of empires to the creation of civilization. You know

848
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 1: what I mean. And this is not just This is

849
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 1: not just a practice of one sect of people from

850
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:29,320
Speaker 1: one part of the world, nor is it the practice

851
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:30,360
Speaker 1: of one discipline.

852
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:32,759
Speaker 2: And just to take it back to alien con we

853
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 2: see it perpetuated there where. If Europeans or some sort

854
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 2: didn't have anything to do with this, well then it

855
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 2: must be aliens making all of these ancient sites.

856
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 1: And in the defense of people who will make those arguments,

857
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:52,799
Speaker 1: typically nowadays they're not just arguing something based on that.

858
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 1: They'll also say a stonehenge, how could ancient people have

859
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:58,440
Speaker 1: made that? Those? Look at those the big that's the

860
00:51:58,480 --> 00:51:59,880
Speaker 1: biggest rock I ever saw.

861
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 2: It's true.

862
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:03,720
Speaker 1: I'm not quoting, I'm paraphrasing.

863
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:06,399
Speaker 2: But true. It is just something we cannot stress enough.

864
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:12,360
Speaker 2: That is, it's highly important and remember it when you

865
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:12,960
Speaker 2: read things.

866
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 1: And at least it leads us almost full circle here,

867
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:21,760
Speaker 1: mat because what we're talking about is underestimating ancient people,

868
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:24,960
Speaker 1: which we should never do. These are modern human beings.

869
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:32,399
Speaker 1: Human humanity is slowly evolving. But people thousands of years

870
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:39,200
Speaker 1: ago were as smart and as capable of invention and

871
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 1: ingenuity as people are today. So this is where it

872
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:46,359
Speaker 1: gets us to a weird spot and maybe where we

873
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:49,880
Speaker 1: end today's conversation to hear from to hear from you folks.

874
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:54,279
Speaker 1: If you know, if we accept that is absolutely true

875
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:58,239
Speaker 1: that ancient peoples could, through their own ingenuity and their

876
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 1: own maguverness, build things like stone hinge, like pyramids like

877
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:08,720
Speaker 1: Catalahyop and so on, doesn't that mean we also need

878
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 1: to be open to the idea that that same ingenuity

879
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 1: could be applied to migration and travel.

880
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 2: Absolutely especially over water, especially over water.

881
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:24,359
Speaker 1: And that's our classic episode for this evening. We can't

882
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 1: wait to hear your thoughts. It's right let us know

883
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 1: what you think. You can reach to the handle Conspiracy

884
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 1: Stuff where we exist on Facebook x and YouTube on

885
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 1: Instagram at TikTok or Conspiracy Stuff Show.

886
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:36,440
Speaker 2: If you want to call us dial one eight three

887
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:41,720
Speaker 2: three STDWYTK. That's our voicemail system. You've got three minutes.

888
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:43,960
Speaker 2: Give yourself a cool nickname and let us know if

889
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 2: we can use your name and message on the air.

890
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 2: If you got more to say than can fit in

891
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:50,719
Speaker 2: that voicemail, why not instead send us a good old

892
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 2: fashioned email.

893
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:54,719
Speaker 1: We are the entities to read every single piece of

894
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 1: correspondence we receive. Be aware, yet not afraid. Sometimes the

895
00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 1: void writes back conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

896
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:23,800
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't want you to Know is a production

897
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:28,440
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

898
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:31,759
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.