WEBVTT - From the Vault: Mystery Cults, Part 4 0:00:06.240 --> 0:00:08.399 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:11.119 is Robert Lamb. It is Saturday, so we have a 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:14.040 vault episode for you. This is part of what part 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:16.680 is this? This is part four of four in our 0:00:16.760 --> 0:00:20.239 mystery cult series that we've been re running. This one 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:24.239 originally published three thirteen, twenty twenty five. This should wrap 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:26.400 it all up. Let's jump right in and enjoy it. 0:00:30.000 --> 0:00:33.760 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:42.040 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:42.680 is Robert. 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:45.280 Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:48.400 the fourth and final part in our discussion of the 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:52.559 mystery cults of the ancient Greco Roman world. We had 0:00:52.600 --> 0:00:55.040 a break in the series on Tuesday of this week 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:58.760 to air a conversation that we had about amphibians with 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:03.200 Mark Mandika of the Amphibian Foundation in Atlanta, and now 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:06.000 we're back to finish our business with the mysteries. 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:08.559 Yeah. By the way, we also aired the interview because 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:11.360 I was out of town to attend the iHeart Podcast 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:14.600 Awards in Austin at south By Southwest. We were nominated 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:18.280 for Best Science Podcast, which was awarded to Ali Ward's 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:21.400 Ologies well deserved, and I got to chat with her briefly, 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:25.240 which was nice. But seeing is how our nomination might 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:27.520 have some new eyes on Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:01:27.760 --> 0:01:30.080 You might be wondering, well, why is a science podcast 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:34.320 talking about mystery, cults and religion. Well, we talk about 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:36.039 a lot of things here on Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:39.800 We consider ourselves a science and culture podcast, with science 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:42.840 being the underlying bedrock, but we do explore topics that 0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:48.040 veer into historical, philosophical, mythic, and folkloric areas as well. 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:51.680 And if you are new to the show, that's just 0:01:51.840 --> 0:01:54.280 happens to be where you're coming in. We should also 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:55.920 let you know this is part four of a four 0:01:55.960 --> 0:01:58.480 part series, so there's that as well. 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:02.040 Yeah, how many syllables are allowed? I call us an 0:02:02.040 --> 0:02:05.840 interdisciplinary science podcast. We try to bring most things back 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:08.360 to science in one way or another, but we like 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:10.840 to connect to lots of other topic domains. 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:14.400 Yeah, but if you asked me in an elevator what 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:16.359 I do for a living, and I say podcast host, 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:18.800 and you ask what kind of podcast, I may just 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:20.800 go ahead and just say science podcast and that is 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:21.800 still accurate. 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:24.960 Now, I guess we should do a brief refresher on 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:27.480 the first three parts of this series, which aired in 0:02:27.520 --> 0:02:30.840 the previous weeks. The subject once again is the mystery 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:35.400 cults of the ancient Mediterranean, which are defined primarily by 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:41.399 their emphasis on secret mystic rights of initiation. So whereas 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:44.280 you'd have the public cults of the Greco Roman world, 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:48.160 they would be mostly built around a transactional system of 0:02:48.200 --> 0:02:53.040 sacrifice and rituals performed by people in the expectation that 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:56.120 the gods would give them blessings in return. I do 0:02:56.200 --> 0:02:59.480 sacrifices and rituals for you. You give me blessings for 0:02:59.560 --> 0:03:02.640 the you know, for outcomes in war, for outcomes in health, 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:06.440 for the harvest, and so forth. And by contrast, the 0:03:06.480 --> 0:03:09.640 mystery cults seem to be driven by the need to 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:16.920 create intense, emotionally powerful religious experiences. Experience is brought on 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:22.200 by participation in these occult initiation rituals, which are all 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:26.640 the more fascinating to us, certainly as consumers across the 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:30.160 divide of history, but also fascinating to people even at 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:33.280 the time, to outsiders of the time, because these rights 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:38.000 were kept secret from non initiates. So in some cases 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:42.880 historians have some strong guesses about what went on in 0:03:42.920 --> 0:03:45.440 the mysteries, and in other cases we really don't know 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:47.960 much at all, and that just makes it all the 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:51.520 more fascinating now and back then as well. So in 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:54.560 part one of this series we primarily talked about the 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:58.320 social and religious context in which the mystery cults existed, 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:01.360 and many of the features of the public cults of 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:05.160 Greek and Roman polytheism, and how these public cults differed 0:04:05.240 --> 0:04:08.520 in general from the features of mystery religions. In parts 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:11.480 two and three we talked in detail about a couple 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:16.400 of specific mystery cults, and we talked first about Mythraism, 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:18.839 which flourished in the Roman Empire from the first to 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:22.360 the fourth century CE, and then also we talked about 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:25.839 the Elusinian mysteries based out of the Sanctuary of Demeter 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:29.240 and Corey. At illusis a place just west of the 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:32.719 city of Athens. Now. One of the best sources we 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:35.359 have found on the subject, which we've referred to throughout 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:38.239 the series, is a book by a historian named Hugh 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:43.400 Boden called Mystery Cults in the Ancient World and Huge Apologies. 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:46.000 I think I've been mispronouncing his last name in the 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:49.000 previous episodes, I was calling him Hugh Bowden, but I 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:51.000 listened to part of the audio book and the reader 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:53.480 there calls him Boden, So apologies, Hugh Boden. 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:56.760 I also made the same mistake, though I think I 0:04:56.800 --> 0:05:02.800 accidentally called him the correct name once, so I'll give 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:06.040 myself backwards congratulation for that one mess up. 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:08.240 If you want to go deep on the mystery cults, 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:11.440 I do recommend reading this book because there's so much 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:14.839 more interesting stuff the Boden discusses that we didn't even 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:17.640 have time to get into in any way here, just 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:19.520 to touch on briefly some of the other things that 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:23.280 come up, but there are chapters on other specific mystery 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:25.680 cults in the ancient world, such as the cult of Isis, 0:05:25.839 --> 0:05:30.359 the cult of Dionysus, the cults of nameless gods and 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:35.040 gods without myths, the cults of a figure known as 0:05:35.040 --> 0:05:38.040 the Great Mother or the Mother of the Gods, and 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:40.120 there are just so many things. One thing that I 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:42.640 found really interesting in the book was there's a chapter 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:48.719 on what Boden calls the private initiator. Is these sort 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:52.960 of religious professionals who would be it would be different 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:55.560 than say the example of the cult of ill usis 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:58.839 where there is a cult of these secret rights that 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:02.000 has a sort of specific home base and people come 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:05.120 to the temple to take part in the mysteries. This 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:09.839 instead would be versions of mystery cults that are sort 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:13.200 of purveyed by a person who goes around claiming to 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:17.440 be a religious expert who can teach you the secrets 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:21.640 or can initiate you, and this figure being treated by 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:24.479 some authors as a kind of con artist of the 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:28.120 ancient world, someone of ill repute who prayed on the gullible. 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:32.080 Yeah. I found this really interesting as well, in part 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:35.920 because about the same time I was reading this, I 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:38.880 also watched the season four debut of The Righteous Gemstones, 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:42.880 which that episode features a Civil War flashback to a 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:47.279 robber turned fake pastor turn perhaps real pastor in some senses, 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:50.240 And of course the whole series comedically pokes at the 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:53.880 line between sincere religiosity and deception. 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:57.880 Right now, the book we're talking about, it's not making 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:00.000 the argument that all of these people in the ancient 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:03.839 world actually were necessarily con artists or deceivers. That's instead 0:07:04.080 --> 0:07:06.560 that seems to be a common way they were portrayed, 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:08.440 and say dramas of the time. 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:13.600 Yeah, yeah, now, and particularly these yeah, private initiators. They 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:17.080 come up a few different times in the book. And indeed, 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:19.320 as he points out, they are called out in Plato's 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:22.440 Republic as the sort that quote go to rich men's 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:25.000 doors and make them believe that they, by means of 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:29.520 sacrifices and incantations, have accumulated a treasure of power from 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:34.000 the gods that can expiate and cure with pleasurable festivals. 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:38.520 So yeah, they're going they're going door to door, they'reknocking 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:42.440 on the right doors and saying, hey, you interested in 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:44.800 that whole mystery cult thing, because I have it here 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:46.960 with me, and we can get you where you need 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:49.680 to go. Or at least that's my interpretation of the 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:51.400 allegations that are made here. 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:53.640 Well, I mean, I feel like there's a thing that 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:57.360 still exists. I think a lot of quite wealthy people, 0:07:57.440 --> 0:07:58.960 you know, there's the idea of they might have their 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:03.280 own personal spirit ritual advisor who's kind of you could 0:08:03.360 --> 0:08:05.840 say in some cases, that's well, that's great, that's something 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:08.040 everybody should have. You know, there's somebody who that can 0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:11.440 kind of bounce ideas off of and find sacred ways 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:13.360 of looking at life. But then the more cynical way 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:15.680 of looking at it is they're just looking to pay 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:18.360 somebody money to make them feel good about themselves. 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:23.080 Yeah. Now, in reading about this, I was also reminded 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:26.080 of another cult of deity that I don't believe Boden 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:28.120 gets into in this book, or perhaps I'm just not 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:31.720 remembering it, and that is the deity Glicon. 0:08:32.240 --> 0:08:33.800 I don't remember that coming up in the book. 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:37.600 This is a snake god whose cult was popular during 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:40.880 the second and third century. See, so you know, similar timeframe, 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:43.079 just some of these other cults we've been discussing. He 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:45.880 even pops up on some Roman coins. If you look 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:49.959 up at an image of Glicon, this deity tends to look 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:55.880 like a snake, with like long hair and maybe a 0:08:55.920 --> 0:09:02.040 slightly unserpentine head and face. It's an interesting look, and 0:09:02.080 --> 0:09:06.080 you also might be familiar with Glicon due to the 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:10.280 fact that writer and comics legend Alan Moore has I 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:12.480 think maybe partially in ingest sometimes it's kind of hard 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:15.679 to tell with more, but he has expressed his devotion 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:19.760 to Glyicon as first of all an obvious hoax and 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:23.880 secondly being a hoax less likely to become problematic and 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:27.120 dangerous in the way of other deities and religions. 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:31.559 M yeah, sorry, I looked up the statues of Glaicon 0:09:31.800 --> 0:09:33.800 with the hair and he looks like he's got rock 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:34.320 star hair. 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:35.640 Yeah he really does. 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:38.040 Yeah, yeah, lead singer snake. 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:42.920 So criticism of Glycon's cult as a hoax goes back 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:47.760 to the writings of the ancient world Lucian of Samosata, 0:09:48.120 --> 0:09:51.760 who wrote scathingly of the cult as being a creation 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:57.160 of Greek mystic and oracle Alexander of Avnotitus centered again, 0:09:57.240 --> 0:10:02.040 centered around an enigmatic snake with human hair that allegedly 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:05.400 might have consisted of a live snake with like a 0:10:05.440 --> 0:10:09.200 fake head or mask on, or perhaps a puppet of 0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:13.240 some sort. And this cult did apparently engage in both 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:18.200 secrecy and overstimulating rituals. So it does seem like the 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:22.840 sort of cult you could loosely classify as a mystery cult, or, 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:25.560 if you're leaning into allegations of fraud here, as a 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:29.280 pseudo mystery cult. Yeah, and I think this is all 0:10:29.320 --> 0:10:33.000 worth thinking about as we reflect on what we've talked 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:37.920 about in the previous episodes, Because, as we discussed, theatrical 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:42.800 effects were employed in the mystery cult initiations, it would seem. 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:45.040 And strongly suspected. 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:49.200 Yes, yes, And for that matter, you know, if you're 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:53.360 to say, okay, theatrical effects are for fine, but no puppets, puppets, 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:56.640 that's just a sception. Well then why shouldn't we become 0:10:56.679 --> 0:11:00.480 complete iconoclasts and refuse religious imagery all the game? You know, 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:04.320 just say, well, likenesses, statues, altars, arguments can be made 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:06.960 that all of that as well is part of a 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:12.840 theatrical effect to create a feeling of the sacred and 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:13.440 so forth. 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:16.400 I'd argue one of the most powerful special effects that 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:19.240 can be deployed by a religion is something a lot 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:21.880 of people wouldn't even think about as a special effect, 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:27.720 and that's music. Music has overwhelming emotional power and can 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:31.040 certainly cause people to get into ecstatic states even a 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:33.920 secular Even in a secular setting, you know, at concerts 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:36.079 and stuff like that, people get into ecstatic states when 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:38.120 they're not expecting to meet the power of a god. 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:41.360 Imagine you go into a powerful musical experience and you 0:11:41.480 --> 0:11:46.680 are expecting to meet a god and experience their power. Yeah, 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:48.480 and so like, that doesn't even cross a lot of 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:52.320 people's minds that like music is a special effect designed 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:55.319 to sort of set you up to have a certain 0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:59.320 kind of emotional vulnerability or openness to an experience, maybe 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:01.960 a religion of an experience or secular nature. 0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:05.679 That's a great point. And what's so interesting about that 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:08.960 point is that I myself will be I'll be quicker 0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:13.959 to criticize a film for emotionally manipulating me with its 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:17.439 music than I will some sort of religious ceremony where 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:20.720 they're likely doing something of the same nature. 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:23.480 Yeah, And I think this is funny because people get 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:27.559 people get really excited and interested about the idea of 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:33.000 hallucinogenic compounds possibly being used in these ancient cults, like 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:35.760 you know, and we can't rule it out. They may 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:37.200 or may not have been. I think some of the 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:40.199 arguments for us we've just talked in the last episode 0:12:40.200 --> 0:12:46.040 about how say the arguments for ergotism is being used 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:49.720 at lusis or probably not very strong. You know, you 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:52.959 can maybe say it's a little more possible that mushrooms 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:56.440 were involved, but there's not strong evidence for that. But 0:12:56.559 --> 0:12:59.120 people are really captivated by this idea. There's a lot 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:02.920 less attention seems to be paid to how often music 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:05.640 is mentioned, and a lot of these ceremonies as being 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:08.800 like a key element. You know, the rights of Dionysus 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:12.720 involve ecstatic dancing on the mountain side, out in the wild, 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:17.840 with overwhelming loud music, shrieking and flutes and drums and singing. 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:20.480 I don't know, that sounds to me like its own 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:22.080 kind of hallucinogen in a way. 0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:24.280 Yeah, they the rhythm of the heat. 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:28.040 In fact, it comes back to a strange comparison that 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:30.760 Boden does make in his book. There's a part where 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:36.200 he talks about, I think quite convincingly notices parallels between 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:38.959 ecstatic religious experiences and rave culture. 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:41.120 That's a great connection. 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:41.880 You know. 0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:44.160 We also mentioned in Passing some of the ideas that 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:48.440 Terrence McKenna had. Terrence McKenna also was very much an 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:51.400 advocate of, I guess more like the sort of cy 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:55.360 trance culture, but adjacent to rave culture, and a part 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:57.400 of that very much tying that in with the sort 0:13:57.400 --> 0:14:03.160 of the same sort of experience is that that may 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:07.960 have played a part in ancient religions. Yes, Now, coming 0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:12.520 back to allegations of fraud in the ancient world concerning 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:16.640 mystery cults, especially gl I couldn't hear. We also have 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:20.480 to reflect on some of the things that Boden points 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:25.360 out regarding critics of mystery cults who would often dwell 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:30.320 on alleged spoilers regarding sacred items that are part of 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:33.280 the initiation, such as you know, revealing, oh it's a 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:35.840 grain of wheat or whatnot, you know, letting you know 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:39.680 what's in the secret box, and by removing the spoiler 0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:42.880 from the context of the initiation, you know, attempting to 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:44.840 sort of gut punch it a little bit and say, look, 0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:47.200 this religion is about nothing because this is what is 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:47.760 in the box. 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:50.920 Yeah, exactly. So some of these claims we have of 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:54.360 the secret content of the mysteries come from Christian apologists 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:56.560 who were opposed to the mystery cults, and we're talking 0:14:56.560 --> 0:15:00.600 about how, oh, these things are stupid. They're celebrations of error, 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:05.480 or sometimes they even make these weird kind of numerological 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:08.640 or kind of word play arguments that like, oh, actually, 0:15:08.760 --> 0:15:12.400 here's why, you know, they're instead of celebrating the wisdom 0:15:12.400 --> 0:15:14.760 of the gods, they're worshiping the error of Eve and 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:19.080 eating the apple or something. So, yeah, they're not a 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:23.120 fan of these rival religions and they're revealing the secrets 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:25.280 in order to lampoon them in a way. 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:27.800 Yeah, so we have to keep all of that in 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:31.840 mind when we're considering these criticisms. So on one hand, 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:36.600 it's possible that a cult like that of Glycans could 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:39.760 be considered in keeping with just theatrics of the time, 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:42.080 like maybe you're just dwelling a little bit too much 0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:44.640 on the fact that, yes, they're using theatrical effects to 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:49.600 enhance the initiation rights of the mystery, you know. And 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:53.600 because in this particular case, the cult of Glican it 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.520 was likely a spin on already established snake cults in 0:15:56.560 --> 0:16:00.440 the region, and it seems to have survived in some 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:05.560 form or re emerged after its creator's death. It's also 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:09.400 possible that Alexander, the creator, alleged creator of the religion 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:12.400 was not that different from other mystics of the time. 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:16.360 We just happened to have strong surviving criticism of him, 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:21.000 whereas we might not have that regarding other particular mystery cults. 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:26.480 On the other hand, if Alexander really was, as Lucian 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:30.520 charges involved in murder plots against his critics, well, then 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:33.720 perhaps there was something kind of singular about him, and 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:37.040 he really was a heel. I was reading a bit 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:41.240 more about this in an article titled Narcissistic Fraud in 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:44.560 the Ancient World by Stephen A. Kent. This was published 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:48.320 in Ancient Narrative back in two thousand and seven, and he 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:51.680 contends that based on what we know about Alexander from 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:54.600 these writings, he may well have been the sort of 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:57.760 person that we'd now classify as a malignant narcissist. 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:00.960 Oh it sounds juicy, Tell me more. 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:05.679 Okay, Well, Lucian had a lot to say. He really 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:10.239 digs into this guy. I'll read a few quotes from him. 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:14.679 He points out that Alexander quote was tall and good looking, 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:17.800 really godlike, with a fair complexion, a beard that was 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:21.359 not very thick, hair partially natural and partially false, but 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:23.800 so well matched that most people couldn't tell the difference. 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:26.879 His eyes flashed like one possessed, while his voice was 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:29.760 very clear and pleasant. And he goes on to talk 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:33.200 about various other positive attributes that this guy had, and 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:35.760 talking about how when you met him, you believe that 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:38.800 this guy you know, believe you know this guy, believe 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:42.000 everything he's telling you is very sincere and he had 0:17:42.000 --> 0:17:45.320 all of these gifts, but quote he used them for 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:48.440 the worst purposes, and equipped with noble instruments, he lost 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:51.360 no time in becoming the most accomplished of those who 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:54.879 have been notorious for wickedness. And he goes on to 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:57.480 accuse him of being quote a quack, the type who 0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:02.200 offered magic spells and marvelous incantation, charms for love affairs, 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:07.920 afflictions for your enemies, discoveries of buried treasure, and inheritances 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:11.320 to estates. He also goes into detail about You're going 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:15.400 to be tired of winning, and then he also goes 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:18.840 in it goes on to discuss a little bit about 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:23.320 the glycon puppet in question, about first of all, Alexander 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:25.240 would he alleges that he would do some sort of 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:28.320 an act where he would chew on soap wort that 0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:30.560 would cause him to foam at the mouth so that 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:34.840 he could fake some sort of a fit of madness, 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:40.040 and then also that the act of producing glycin involved 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:43.600 quote a snake's head made of linen. It had a 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:46.080 slightly human look to it and was painted to look 0:18:46.119 --> 0:18:49.520 completely lifelike. Its mouth opened and closed by means of 0:18:49.560 --> 0:18:52.440 horse hairs, and the tongue black and forked like a 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:55.719 snake's would shoot out, also controlled by hairs. 0:18:56.280 --> 0:18:58.800 So I guess I don't fully understand the spirit of 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:01.760 the allegation. Is it a problem that it's a puppet 0:19:02.080 --> 0:19:04.480 or is it that like, oh, he's trying to say 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:06.760 it's not a puppet, it's a puppet. He's trying to 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:08.560 pass off as a living organism. 0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:12.400 Well, his criticism here, and I should add that historians 0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:15.560 seem to agree that this is this is an actual 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:20.080 historic individual. It is being criticized here. Yeah, I'm to 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:23.399 understand the stronger criticism here is that he's a scoundrel, 0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:27.639 But I mean, he's also accused of being a quack, 0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:31.280 So the fakeness of what he is doing, the theatrical 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:35.119 effects are also being criticized here, And it seems like 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:42.080 one interpretation could be that those particular criticisms are perhaps 0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:46.240 maybe a little unfair compared to what is probably going 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:49.760 on with other mystery religions of the time. However, again, 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:54.520 if Alexander It really is as deceptive and awful as 0:19:54.600 --> 0:19:56.960 he is accused of being here, then we definitely have 0:19:57.000 --> 0:19:59.000 to take that into account too, and maybe that's what 0:19:59.119 --> 0:19:59.840 pushes it over the. 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:04.600 Now. This could be totally off base because, as I said, 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:06.960 I don't know much about what Lucian is doing here. 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:10.359 But I wonder also could it be that a criticism 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:13.080 like this could be aimed at such a puppet being 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:17.280 in bad taste like ye, to the people of the time, 0:20:17.320 --> 0:20:21.520 you'd have a certain kind of sensibility about what is 0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:26.600 accept what are the acceptable special effects within a religious context, 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:30.440 and what are the not acceptable special effects the same 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:32.680 way that people would now, Like there are certain types 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:35.720 of things that people think, oh, yeah, that fits right 0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:37.880 in at a church. Music, it fits in in most 0:20:37.960 --> 0:20:40.680 churches in some form. That's a powerful special effect. But 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:42.840 there are other things that if you did them in 0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:46.320 a church, people in our culture would probably say, like, 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:50.040 that's really gaudy, that's that's not the appropriate tone. 0:20:51.240 --> 0:20:51.399 You know. 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:53.440 I wonder if something like that could be operative in 0:20:53.880 --> 0:20:55.880 other times and places in history as well. 0:20:56.119 --> 0:21:00.399 Like he is, he is crossing a line that critics 0:21:00.400 --> 0:21:03.240 are not ready for. But perhaps some of the initiates 0:21:03.800 --> 0:21:06.439 are cool with or have come to accept or just 0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:08.280 have a you know, a different threshold. 0:21:07.800 --> 0:21:10.880 For Yeah, like probably a lot of churches today would 0:21:10.880 --> 0:21:14.160 be fine with music, but not with the pyrotechnics display 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:17.760 for the sermon, but I bet some some use them, probably. 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:20.959 Yeah, But I mean even you know, generationally in churches, 0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:23.600 for example, you'll have some that are like electric guitars 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:25.960 in a service that's just that's not done. You shouldn't 0:21:25.960 --> 0:21:27.600 say that, and others are like, no, that's what we're 0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:30.600 doing and that's what's bringing people in. So you know, 0:21:31.200 --> 0:21:34.000 I think you could probably get into what might in 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:37.359 the long term be silly disputes about what is proper 0:21:37.400 --> 0:21:42.240 and isn't proper given any particular religious right or service. 0:21:43.320 --> 0:21:47.280 So yeah, it's I'm unsure exactly where to parse all 0:21:47.320 --> 0:21:51.000 of the Glycin situation here. But again, the cult of 0:21:51.040 --> 0:21:55.760 Glycon did deal in theatrics and secrets, and what Lucian 0:21:55.840 --> 0:22:08.520 here is doing is definitely spilling some tea about the secrets. 0:22:09.280 --> 0:22:12.600 That brings us back to an interesting subject that I 0:22:12.600 --> 0:22:15.800 did want to return to today. So there was a 0:22:15.800 --> 0:22:18.640 scholar I talked about in Part three named Kevin Clinton 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:22.800 who wrote a chapter that dealt with the Alusinian mysteries. 0:22:23.880 --> 0:22:26.760 And there's a part where Clinton was exploring a passage 0:22:26.760 --> 0:22:31.040 in Aristotle making the case that the initiate who goes 0:22:31.080 --> 0:22:35.280 through the secret rights at ilusis is not supposed to 0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:40.800 learn anything. They're not there to get information, but rather 0:22:41.080 --> 0:22:45.080 to have an experience. And then Aristotle says, and thus 0:22:45.520 --> 0:22:50.359 by having the experience to become fit or deserving. I 0:22:50.400 --> 0:22:54.359 interpret that as deserving of a certain kind of relationship 0:22:54.480 --> 0:22:58.440 or intimacy with the gods. But this really goes against 0:22:58.480 --> 0:23:02.680 our normal idea of a secret, doesn't it. Like when 0:23:02.720 --> 0:23:07.600 we talk about secrets, a secret is almost always understood 0:23:08.119 --> 0:23:12.840 to mean information kept hidden from someone. So by becoming 0:23:12.920 --> 0:23:16.240