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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. It is Saturday, so we have a

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Speaker 1: vault episode for you. This is part of what part

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Speaker 1: is this? This is part four of four in our

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Speaker 1: mystery cult series that we've been re running. This one

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Speaker 1: originally published three thirteen, twenty twenty five. This should wrap

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Speaker 1: it all up. Let's jump right in and enjoy it.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind, production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert.

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Speaker 3: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with

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Speaker 3: the fourth and final part in our discussion of the

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Speaker 3: mystery cults of the ancient Greco Roman world. We had

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Speaker 3: a break in the series on Tuesday of this week

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Speaker 3: to air a conversation that we had about amphibians with

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Speaker 3: Mark Mandika of the Amphibian Foundation in Atlanta, and now

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Speaker 3: we're back to finish our business with the mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. By the way, we also aired the interview because

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Speaker 1: I was out of town to attend the iHeart Podcast

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Speaker 1: Awards in Austin at south By Southwest. We were nominated

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Speaker 1: for Best Science Podcast, which was awarded to Ali Ward's

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Speaker 1: Ologies well deserved, and I got to chat with her briefly,

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Speaker 1: which was nice. But seeing is how our nomination might

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Speaker 1: have some new eyes on Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 1: You might be wondering, well, why is a science podcast

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Speaker 1: talking about mystery, cults and religion. Well, we talk about

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Speaker 1: a lot of things here on Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 1: We consider ourselves a science and culture podcast, with science

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Speaker 1: being the underlying bedrock, but we do explore topics that

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Speaker 1: veer into historical, philosophical, mythic, and folkloric areas as well.

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Speaker 1: And if you are new to the show, that's just

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Speaker 1: happens to be where you're coming in. We should also

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Speaker 1: let you know this is part four of a four

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Speaker 1: part series, so there's that as well.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, how many syllables are allowed? I call us an

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Speaker 3: interdisciplinary science podcast. We try to bring most things back

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Speaker 3: to science in one way or another, but we like

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Speaker 3: to connect to lots of other topic domains.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but if you asked me in an elevator what

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Speaker 1: I do for a living, and I say podcast host,

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Speaker 1: and you ask what kind of podcast, I may just

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Speaker 1: go ahead and just say science podcast and that is

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Speaker 1: still accurate.

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Speaker 3: Now, I guess we should do a brief refresher on

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Speaker 3: the first three parts of this series, which aired in

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Speaker 3: the previous weeks. The subject once again is the mystery

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Speaker 3: cults of the ancient Mediterranean, which are defined primarily by

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Speaker 3: their emphasis on secret mystic rights of initiation. So whereas

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Speaker 3: you'd have the public cults of the Greco Roman world,

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Speaker 3: they would be mostly built around a transactional system of

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Speaker 3: sacrifice and rituals performed by people in the expectation that

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Speaker 3: the gods would give them blessings in return. I do

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Speaker 3: sacrifices and rituals for you. You give me blessings for

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Speaker 3: the you know, for outcomes in war, for outcomes in health,

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Speaker 3: for the harvest, and so forth. And by contrast, the

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Speaker 3: mystery cults seem to be driven by the need to

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Speaker 3: create intense, emotionally powerful religious experiences. Experience is brought on

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Speaker 3: by participation in these occult initiation rituals, which are all

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Speaker 3: the more fascinating to us, certainly as consumers across the

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Speaker 3: divide of history, but also fascinating to people even at

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Speaker 3: the time, to outsiders of the time, because these rights

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Speaker 3: were kept secret from non initiates. So in some cases

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Speaker 3: historians have some strong guesses about what went on in

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Speaker 3: the mysteries, and in other cases we really don't know

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Speaker 3: much at all, and that just makes it all the

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Speaker 3: more fascinating now and back then as well. So in

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Speaker 3: part one of this series we primarily talked about the

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Speaker 3: social and religious context in which the mystery cults existed,

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Speaker 3: and many of the features of the public cults of

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Speaker 3: Greek and Roman polytheism, and how these public cults differed

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Speaker 3: in general from the features of mystery religions. In parts

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Speaker 3: two and three we talked in detail about a couple

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Speaker 3: of specific mystery cults, and we talked first about Mythraism,

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Speaker 3: which flourished in the Roman Empire from the first to

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Speaker 3: the fourth century CE, and then also we talked about

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Speaker 3: the Elusinian mysteries based out of the Sanctuary of Demeter

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Speaker 3: and Corey. At illusis a place just west of the

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Speaker 3: city of Athens. Now. One of the best sources we

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Speaker 3: have found on the subject, which we've referred to throughout

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Speaker 3: the series, is a book by a historian named Hugh

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Speaker 3: Boden called Mystery Cults in the Ancient World and Huge Apologies.

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Speaker 3: I think I've been mispronouncing his last name in the

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Speaker 3: previous episodes, I was calling him Hugh Bowden, but I

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Speaker 3: listened to part of the audio book and the reader

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Speaker 3: there calls him Boden, So apologies, Hugh Boden.

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Speaker 1: I also made the same mistake, though I think I

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Speaker 1: accidentally called him the correct name once, so I'll give

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Speaker 1: myself backwards congratulation for that one mess up.

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Speaker 3: If you want to go deep on the mystery cults,

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Speaker 3: I do recommend reading this book because there's so much

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Speaker 3: more interesting stuff the Boden discusses that we didn't even

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Speaker 3: have time to get into in any way here, just

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Speaker 3: to touch on briefly some of the other things that

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Speaker 3: come up, but there are chapters on other specific mystery

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Speaker 3: cults in the ancient world, such as the cult of Isis,

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Speaker 3: the cult of Dionysus, the cults of nameless gods and

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Speaker 3: gods without myths, the cults of a figure known as

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Speaker 3: the Great Mother or the Mother of the Gods, and

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Speaker 3: there are just so many things. One thing that I

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Speaker 3: found really interesting in the book was there's a chapter

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Speaker 3: on what Boden calls the private initiator. Is these sort

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Speaker 3: of religious professionals who would be it would be different

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Speaker 3: than say the example of the cult of ill usis

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Speaker 3: where there is a cult of these secret rights that

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Speaker 3: has a sort of specific home base and people come

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Speaker 3: to the temple to take part in the mysteries. This

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Speaker 3: instead would be versions of mystery cults that are sort

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Speaker 3: of purveyed by a person who goes around claiming to

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Speaker 3: be a religious expert who can teach you the secrets

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Speaker 3: or can initiate you, and this figure being treated by

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Speaker 3: some authors as a kind of con artist of the

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Speaker 3: ancient world, someone of ill repute who prayed on the gullible.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I found this really interesting as well, in part

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Speaker 1: because about the same time I was reading this, I

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Speaker 1: also watched the season four debut of The Righteous Gemstones,

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Speaker 1: which that episode features a Civil War flashback to a

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Speaker 1: robber turned fake pastor turn perhaps real pastor in some senses,

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Speaker 1: And of course the whole series comedically pokes at the

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Speaker 1: line between sincere religiosity and deception.

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Speaker 3: Right now, the book we're talking about, it's not making

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Speaker 3: the argument that all of these people in the ancient

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Speaker 3: world actually were necessarily con artists or deceivers. That's instead

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Speaker 3: that seems to be a common way they were portrayed,

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Speaker 3: and say dramas of the time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, now, and particularly these yeah, private initiators. They

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Speaker 1: come up a few different times in the book. And indeed,

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Speaker 1: as he points out, they are called out in Plato's

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Speaker 1: Republic as the sort that quote go to rich men's

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Speaker 1: doors and make them believe that they, by means of

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Speaker 1: sacrifices and incantations, have accumulated a treasure of power from

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Speaker 1: the gods that can expiate and cure with pleasurable festivals.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, they're going they're going door to door, they'reknocking

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Speaker 1: on the right doors and saying, hey, you interested in

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Speaker 1: that whole mystery cult thing, because I have it here

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Speaker 1: with me, and we can get you where you need

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Speaker 1: to go. Or at least that's my interpretation of the

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Speaker 1: allegations that are made here.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I feel like there's a thing that

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Speaker 3: still exists. I think a lot of quite wealthy people,

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Speaker 3: you know, there's the idea of they might have their

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Speaker 3: own personal spirit ritual advisor who's kind of you could

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Speaker 3: say in some cases, that's well, that's great, that's something

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Speaker 3: everybody should have. You know, there's somebody who that can

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Speaker 3: kind of bounce ideas off of and find sacred ways

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Speaker 3: of looking at life. But then the more cynical way

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Speaker 3: of looking at it is they're just looking to pay

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Speaker 3: somebody money to make them feel good about themselves.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, in reading about this, I was also reminded

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Speaker 1: of another cult of deity that I don't believe Boden

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Speaker 1: gets into in this book, or perhaps I'm just not

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Speaker 1: remembering it, and that is the deity Glicon.

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Speaker 3: I don't remember that coming up in the book.

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Speaker 1: This is a snake god whose cult was popular during

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Speaker 1: the second and third century. See, so you know, similar timeframe,

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Speaker 1: just some of these other cults we've been discussing. He

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Speaker 1: even pops up on some Roman coins. If you look

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Speaker 1: up at an image of Glicon, this deity tends to look

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Speaker 1: like a snake, with like long hair and maybe a

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Speaker 1: slightly unserpentine head and face. It's an interesting look, and

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Speaker 1: you also might be familiar with Glicon due to the

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Speaker 1: fact that writer and comics legend Alan Moore has I

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Speaker 1: think maybe partially in ingest sometimes it's kind of hard

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Speaker 1: to tell with more, but he has expressed his devotion

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Speaker 1: to Glyicon as first of all an obvious hoax and

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Speaker 1: secondly being a hoax less likely to become problematic and

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Speaker 1: dangerous in the way of other deities and religions.

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Speaker 3: M yeah, sorry, I looked up the statues of Glaicon

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Speaker 3: with the hair and he looks like he's got rock

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Speaker 3: star hair.

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Speaker 1: Yeah he really does.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, lead singer snake.

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Speaker 1: So criticism of Glycon's cult as a hoax goes back

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Speaker 1: to the writings of the ancient world Lucian of Samosata,

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Speaker 1: who wrote scathingly of the cult as being a creation

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Speaker 1: of Greek mystic and oracle Alexander of Avnotitus centered again,

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Speaker 1: centered around an enigmatic snake with human hair that allegedly

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Speaker 1: might have consisted of a live snake with like a

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Speaker 1: fake head or mask on, or perhaps a puppet of

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Speaker 1: some sort. And this cult did apparently engage in both

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Speaker 1: secrecy and overstimulating rituals. So it does seem like the

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Speaker 1: sort of cult you could loosely classify as a mystery cult, or,

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Speaker 1: if you're leaning into allegations of fraud here, as a

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Speaker 1: pseudo mystery cult. Yeah, and I think this is all

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Speaker 1: worth thinking about as we reflect on what we've talked

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Speaker 1: about in the previous episodes, Because, as we discussed, theatrical

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Speaker 1: effects were employed in the mystery cult initiations, it would seem.

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Speaker 3: And strongly suspected.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, And for that matter, you know, if you're

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Speaker 1: to say, okay, theatrical effects are for fine, but no puppets, puppets,

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Speaker 1: that's just a sception. Well then why shouldn't we become

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Speaker 1: complete iconoclasts and refuse religious imagery all the game? You know,

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Speaker 1: just say, well, likenesses, statues, altars, arguments can be made

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Speaker 1: that all of that as well is part of a

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Speaker 1: theatrical effect to create a feeling of the sacred and

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Speaker 1: so forth.

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Speaker 3: I'd argue one of the most powerful special effects that

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Speaker 3: can be deployed by a religion is something a lot

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Speaker 3: of people wouldn't even think about as a special effect,

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Speaker 3: and that's music. Music has overwhelming emotional power and can

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Speaker 3: certainly cause people to get into ecstatic states even a

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Speaker 3: secular Even in a secular setting, you know, at concerts

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Speaker 3: and stuff like that, people get into ecstatic states when

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Speaker 3: they're not expecting to meet the power of a god.

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Speaker 3: Imagine you go into a powerful musical experience and you

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Speaker 3: are expecting to meet a god and experience their power. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and so like, that doesn't even cross a lot of

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Speaker 3: people's minds that like music is a special effect designed

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Speaker 3: to sort of set you up to have a certain

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Speaker 3: kind of emotional vulnerability or openness to an experience, maybe

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Speaker 3: a religion of an experience or secular nature.

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Speaker 1: That's a great point. And what's so interesting about that

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Speaker 1: point is that I myself will be I'll be quicker

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Speaker 1: to criticize a film for emotionally manipulating me with its

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Speaker 1: music than I will some sort of religious ceremony where

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Speaker 1: they're likely doing something of the same nature.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think this is funny because people get

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Speaker 3: people get really excited and interested about the idea of

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Speaker 3: hallucinogenic compounds possibly being used in these ancient cults, like

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Speaker 3: you know, and we can't rule it out. They may

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Speaker 3: or may not have been. I think some of the

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Speaker 3: arguments for us we've just talked in the last episode

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Speaker 3: about how say the arguments for ergotism is being used

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Speaker 3: at lusis or probably not very strong. You know, you

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Speaker 3: can maybe say it's a little more possible that mushrooms

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Speaker 3: were involved, but there's not strong evidence for that. But

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Speaker 3: people are really captivated by this idea. There's a lot

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Speaker 3: less attention seems to be paid to how often music

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Speaker 3: is mentioned, and a lot of these ceremonies as being

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Speaker 3: like a key element. You know, the rights of Dionysus

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Speaker 3: involve ecstatic dancing on the mountain side, out in the wild,

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Speaker 3: with overwhelming loud music, shrieking and flutes and drums and singing.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, that sounds to me like its own

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Speaker 3: kind of hallucinogen in a way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they the rhythm of the heat.

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Speaker 3: In fact, it comes back to a strange comparison that

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Speaker 3: Boden does make in his book. There's a part where

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Speaker 3: he talks about, I think quite convincingly notices parallels between

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Speaker 3: ecstatic religious experiences and rave culture.

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Speaker 1: That's a great connection.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: We also mentioned in Passing some of the ideas that

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Speaker 1: Terrence McKenna had. Terrence McKenna also was very much an

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Speaker 1: advocate of, I guess more like the sort of cy

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Speaker 1: trance culture, but adjacent to rave culture, and a part

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Speaker 1: of that very much tying that in with the sort

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Speaker 1: of the same sort of experience is that that may

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Speaker 1: have played a part in ancient religions. Yes, Now, coming

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Speaker 1: back to allegations of fraud in the ancient world concerning

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Speaker 1: mystery cults, especially gl I couldn't hear. We also have

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Speaker 1: to reflect on some of the things that Boden points

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Speaker 1: out regarding critics of mystery cults who would often dwell

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Speaker 1: on alleged spoilers regarding sacred items that are part of

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Speaker 1: the initiation, such as you know, revealing, oh it's a

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Speaker 1: grain of wheat or whatnot, you know, letting you know

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Speaker 1: what's in the secret box, and by removing the spoiler

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Speaker 1: from the context of the initiation, you know, attempting to

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Speaker 1: sort of gut punch it a little bit and say, look,

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Speaker 1: this religion is about nothing because this is what is

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Speaker 1: in the box.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. So some of these claims we have of

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Speaker 3: the secret content of the mysteries come from Christian apologists

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Speaker 3: who were opposed to the mystery cults, and we're talking

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Speaker 3: about how, oh, these things are stupid. They're celebrations of error,

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Speaker 3: or sometimes they even make these weird kind of numerological

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Speaker 3: or kind of word play arguments that like, oh, actually,

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Speaker 3: here's why, you know, they're instead of celebrating the wisdom

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Speaker 3: of the gods, they're worshiping the error of Eve and

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Speaker 3: eating the apple or something. So, yeah, they're not a

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Speaker 3: fan of these rival religions and they're revealing the secrets

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Speaker 3: in order to lampoon them in a way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so we have to keep all of that in

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Speaker 1: mind when we're considering these criticisms. So on one hand,

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Speaker 1: it's possible that a cult like that of Glycans could

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Speaker 1: be considered in keeping with just theatrics of the time,

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Speaker 1: like maybe you're just dwelling a little bit too much

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Speaker 1: on the fact that, yes, they're using theatrical effects to

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Speaker 1: enhance the initiation rights of the mystery, you know. And

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Speaker 1: because in this particular case, the cult of Glican it

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Speaker 1: was likely a spin on already established snake cults in

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Speaker 1: the region, and it seems to have survived in some

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Speaker 1: form or re emerged after its creator's death. It's also

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Speaker 1: possible that Alexander, the creator, alleged creator of the religion

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Speaker 1: was not that different from other mystics of the time.

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Speaker 1: We just happened to have strong surviving criticism of him,

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Speaker 1: whereas we might not have that regarding other particular mystery cults.

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Speaker 1: On the other hand, if Alexander really was, as Lucian

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Speaker 1: charges involved in murder plots against his critics, well, then

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Speaker 1: perhaps there was something kind of singular about him, and

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Speaker 1: he really was a heel. I was reading a bit

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Speaker 1: more about this in an article titled Narcissistic Fraud in

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Speaker 1: the Ancient World by Stephen A. Kent. This was published

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Speaker 1: in Ancient Narrative back in two thousand and seven, and he

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Speaker 1: contends that based on what we know about Alexander from

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Speaker 1: these writings, he may well have been the sort of

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Speaker 1: person that we'd now classify as a malignant narcissist.

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Speaker 3: Oh it sounds juicy, Tell me more.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, Lucian had a lot to say. He really

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Speaker 1: digs into this guy. I'll read a few quotes from him.

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Speaker 1: He points out that Alexander quote was tall and good looking,

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Speaker 1: really godlike, with a fair complexion, a beard that was

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Speaker 1: not very thick, hair partially natural and partially false, but

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Speaker 1: so well matched that most people couldn't tell the difference.

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Speaker 1: His eyes flashed like one possessed, while his voice was

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Speaker 1: very clear and pleasant. And he goes on to talk

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Speaker 1: about various other positive attributes that this guy had, and

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Speaker 1: talking about how when you met him, you believe that

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Speaker 1: this guy you know, believe you know this guy, believe

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Speaker 1: everything he's telling you is very sincere and he had

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Speaker 1: all of these gifts, but quote he used them for

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Speaker 1: the worst purposes, and equipped with noble instruments, he lost

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Speaker 1: no time in becoming the most accomplished of those who

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Speaker 1: have been notorious for wickedness. And he goes on to

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Speaker 1: accuse him of being quote a quack, the type who

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Speaker 1: offered magic spells and marvelous incantation, charms for love affairs,

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Speaker 1: afflictions for your enemies, discoveries of buried treasure, and inheritances

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Speaker 1: to estates. He also goes into detail about You're going

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Speaker 1: to be tired of winning, and then he also goes

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Speaker 1: in it goes on to discuss a little bit about

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Speaker 1: the glycon puppet in question, about first of all, Alexander

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Speaker 1: would he alleges that he would do some sort of

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Speaker 1: an act where he would chew on soap wort that

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Speaker 1: would cause him to foam at the mouth so that

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Speaker 1: he could fake some sort of a fit of madness,

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Speaker 1: and then also that the act of producing glycin involved

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Speaker 1: quote a snake's head made of linen. It had a

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Speaker 1: slightly human look to it and was painted to look

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Speaker 1: completely lifelike. Its mouth opened and closed by means of

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Speaker 1: horse hairs, and the tongue black and forked like a

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Speaker 1: snake's would shoot out, also controlled by hairs.

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Speaker 3: So I guess I don't fully understand the spirit of

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Speaker 3: the allegation. Is it a problem that it's a puppet

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Speaker 3: or is it that like, oh, he's trying to say

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Speaker 3: it's not a puppet, it's a puppet. He's trying to

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Speaker 3: pass off as a living organism.

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Speaker 1: Well, his criticism here, and I should add that historians

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Speaker 1: seem to agree that this is this is an actual

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Speaker 1: historic individual. It is being criticized here. Yeah, I'm to

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Speaker 1: understand the stronger criticism here is that he's a scoundrel,

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Speaker 1: But I mean, he's also accused of being a quack,

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Speaker 1: So the fakeness of what he is doing, the theatrical

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Speaker 1: effects are also being criticized here, And it seems like

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Speaker 1: one interpretation could be that those particular criticisms are perhaps

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Speaker 1: maybe a little unfair compared to what is probably going

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Speaker 1: on with other mystery religions of the time. However, again,

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Speaker 1: if Alexander It really is as deceptive and awful as

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Speaker 1: he is accused of being here, then we definitely have

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Speaker 1: to take that into account too, and maybe that's what

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Speaker 1: pushes it over the.

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Speaker 3: Now. This could be totally off base because, as I said,

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Speaker 3: I don't know much about what Lucian is doing here.

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Speaker 3: But I wonder also could it be that a criticism

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Speaker 3: like this could be aimed at such a puppet being

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Speaker 3: in bad taste like ye, to the people of the time,

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Speaker 3: you'd have a certain kind of sensibility about what is

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Speaker 3: accept what are the acceptable special effects within a religious context,

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Speaker 3: and what are the not acceptable special effects the same

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Speaker 3: way that people would now, Like there are certain types

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Speaker 3: of things that people think, oh, yeah, that fits right

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Speaker 3: in at a church. Music, it fits in in most

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Speaker 3: churches in some form. That's a powerful special effect. But

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Speaker 3: there are other things that if you did them in

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Speaker 3: a church, people in our culture would probably say, like,

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Speaker 3: that's really gaudy, that's that's not the appropriate tone.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: I wonder if something like that could be operative in

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Speaker 3: other times and places in history as well.

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Speaker 1: Like he is, he is crossing a line that critics

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Speaker 1: are not ready for. But perhaps some of the initiates

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Speaker 1: are cool with or have come to accept or just

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Speaker 1: have a you know, a different threshold.

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Speaker 3: For Yeah, like probably a lot of churches today would

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Speaker 3: be fine with music, but not with the pyrotechnics display

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Speaker 3: for the sermon, but I bet some some use them, probably.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, But I mean even you know, generationally in churches,

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Speaker 1: for example, you'll have some that are like electric guitars

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Speaker 1: in a service that's just that's not done. You shouldn't

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Speaker 1: say that, and others are like, no, that's what we're

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Speaker 1: doing and that's what's bringing people in. So you know,

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Speaker 1: I think you could probably get into what might in

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Speaker 1: the long term be silly disputes about what is proper

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Speaker 1: and isn't proper given any particular religious right or service.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, it's I'm unsure exactly where to parse all

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Speaker 1: of the Glycin situation here. But again, the cult of

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Speaker 1: Glycon did deal in theatrics and secrets, and what Lucian

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Speaker 1: here is doing is definitely spilling some tea about the secrets.

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Speaker 3: That brings us back to an interesting subject that I

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Speaker 3: did want to return to today. So there was a

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Speaker 3: scholar I talked about in Part three named Kevin Clinton

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Speaker 3: who wrote a chapter that dealt with the Alusinian mysteries.

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Speaker 3: And there's a part where Clinton was exploring a passage

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Speaker 3: in Aristotle making the case that the initiate who goes

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Speaker 3: through the secret rights at ilusis is not supposed to

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Speaker 3: learn anything. They're not there to get information, but rather

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Speaker 3: to have an experience. And then Aristotle says, and thus

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Speaker 3: by having the experience to become fit or deserving. I

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Speaker 3: interpret that as deserving of a certain kind of relationship

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Speaker 3: or intimacy with the gods. But this really goes against

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Speaker 3: our normal idea of a secret, doesn't it. Like when

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Speaker 3: we talk about secrets, a secret is almost always understood

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Speaker 3: to mean information kept hidden from someone. So by becoming

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Speaker 3: an initiate and going through the mystic rights, you gain

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Speaker 3: access to the secrets. What is hidden from others is

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Speaker 3: revealed to you. But it's emphasized over and over by

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Speaker 3: all these sources we've been talking about that the point

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Speaker 3: is not to gain information. The initiate is not expected

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Speaker 3: to learn any informational content. So why the secrecy? What

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Speaker 3: is it doing? What's the point of it? And I

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Speaker 3: guess when you ask why about something like secrecy, you

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Speaker 3: could mean that question in different ways. So in one sense,

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Speaker 3: you might be asking why did the people who first

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Speaker 3: decided these rights should be kept secret decide that? Like,

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Speaker 3: what motivation did they have in their minds to establish

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Speaker 3: a tradition of secrecy. It seems there's probably no way

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Speaker 3: to answer that question with any content evil. All you

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Speaker 3: could do is speculate, and then in a very different sense,

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Speaker 3: you could ask why the secrecy, to mean, why were

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Speaker 3: cults with secret initiation rights successful and appealing? In other words,

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Speaker 3: why do secrets work in a religious context? Why does

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Speaker 3: a cult with secrets make people want to come join it?

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Speaker 3: And so this got me thinking about the psychology of secrets,

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Speaker 3: which we have covered to some extent on the show before.

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Speaker 3: I think years ago, we did a at least one episode,

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Speaker 3: maybe a couple of parts about the psychological effects of

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Speaker 3: having secrets. There's definitely research about how, like having a

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Speaker 3: shameful secret, or one you perceive as shameful, causes psychological distress.

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Speaker 3: This shouldn't come as any surprise. It tends to lead

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Speaker 3: to feelings of isolation, to anxiety and so forth, especially

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Speaker 3: if depending on the nature and nature of the secret,

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Speaker 3: and like how it applies to say, relationships, and if

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Speaker 3: you are forced to think about the secret a lot

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Speaker 3: and stuff like that, and a lot of the psychological

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Speaker 3: studies on secrets have this kind of focus. Essentially, they're

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00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:15,880
Speaker 3: about the effects of thinking about concealed personal information which

434
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 3: people believe would be harmful to them if discovered by others.

435
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 3: The classic example is the fact that you did something

436
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 3: morally bad or something embarrassing you hope no one ever

437
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 3: finds out, So now it's your secret. But when you

438
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 3: think about it that way, that's actually a very different

439
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,720
Speaker 3: kind of secret than we're talking about with the mystery cults.

440
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 3: If I am an initiate of a mystery cults, I

441
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 3: am an apoptase of the Elusinian mystery. So I've gone

442
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 3: through initiation the second time with open eyes. I've seen

443
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 3: all the mystic rites of Demeter. I've witnessed something that

444
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 3: is kept secret to outsiders, and I'm not allowed to

445
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 3: talk about it or share it under pain of great penalty,

446
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 3: possibly under pain of death. I will be in a

447
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 3: state where I have to carry this secret with me

448
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 3: and I can't tell people. But there's no evidence that

449
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 3: there is any any feeling of shame associated with this secret.

450
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 3: It's not bad or damaging information, certainly not about me,

451
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,920
Speaker 3: probably not about anyone. And in fact, there's not really

452
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 3: much evidence that these secrets were perceived as a burden

453
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 3: in any way. Also, the thing that is being kept

454
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 3: secret is, as best I can tell, probably not a

455
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 3: piece of discrete information that can easily be put into words,

456
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 3: like you know, one thing like that would be the

457
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 3: kinds of secrets that we trade in in regular, regular gossip.

458
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,119
Speaker 3: So those kind of secrets might be like a fact

459
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 3: about something that somebody did you know, so and so

460
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,159
Speaker 3: cheated on their spouse, or so and so lied about something.

461
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:56,679
Speaker 3: Things like that, They're not really discrete things that you

462
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 3: can put into words. Instead, it seems like these secrets

463
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 3: were probably a kind of baffling, overwhelming emotional experience of sites, sounds,

464
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 3: strange words, strange objects and rituals that you took part

465
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 3: in yourself. So it would almost be as if like

466
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,439
Speaker 3: the secret were not information encoded in words, but like

467
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 3: the experience of going to a concert or a great

468
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 3: play like we've been talking about.

469
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 1: So, for instance, an example of the former would be

470
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 1: Bruce Wayne's secret being that he is Batman. Yeah, but

471
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 1: the latter would be the secret that we all might

472
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 1: realize that we are all Batman, something that maybe is

473
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 1: a little, you know, harder to really explain, but if

474
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:46,439
Speaker 1: you know it, you know it well.

475
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 3: It's also that that might be a good example, because

476
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,120
Speaker 3: it's the kind of thing that if you just say it,

477
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 3: it sounds kind of banal. It's not a very interesting

478
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 3: thing to hear. But if you saw a great story,

479
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,200
Speaker 3: like if you watched a movie that convinced you and

480
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 3: your gut that yes, we are all Batman, then it

481
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 3: would feel really powerful.

482
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 1: Right, And it might might very well depend on a

483
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 1: sensory overload experience like seeing a really good Batman movie.

484
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 3: Also, ancient writers describe the effect of being in on

485
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 3: the secret of a mystery cult as an extremely positive one.

486
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 3: It's a good thing. It doesn't feel bad, it doesn't

487
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 3: feel like a burden, it feels good. Instead, being in

488
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 3: on the secret actually unburdens you of your worries. It

489
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,640
Speaker 3: allows you to go with lightness when it is time

490
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 3: to enter the land of the dead. So I was

491
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 3: looking to see if there's any research on positive secrets,

492
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 3: and indeed there have been some experiments on this. One

493
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 3: study I wanted to mention was by Michael Sleepian, Catherine Greenaway,

494
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 3: Nicholas camp and Adam Galinsky called The bright Side of

495
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 3: Secrecy The Energizing Effect of Positive Secrets in the Journal

496
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 3: of Personality and Social Psychology twenty twenty three. Now, the

497
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 3: author's here is start off by saying, like, yes, we

498
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 3: do often associate secrets with burdens and distress, but this

499
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 3: is in the scientific context. This is mainly because secrets

500
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 3: have been studied in cases of adverse secrets. It's stuff

501
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 3: we don't want people to find out about. What about

502
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 3: when people have information that they are not sharing with

503
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 3: other people, but it's information they feel good about.

504
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, this is going to be another silly example.

505
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 1: But I'm reminded of a stand up bit from Uparna Manchula,

506
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 1: who is hilarious, but she has a bit about reading

507
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 1: in a women's magazine, the advice that she should walk

508
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 1: around like she's carrying a sexy secret, and which is

509
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: on the face silly, and I believe her bit is

510
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 1: like it sounds like women's magazines are just written by spambots.

511
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 1: That's what she that's her interpretation. But on the other hand,

512
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 1: I also kind of understand what they're getting at, like

513
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 1: the idea of having some sort of a secret that

514
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: is not an negative secret but positive that you know

515
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: you're keeping it secret so you're not just expressing it everywhere.

516
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 1: But perhaps the light of that secret is shining through you.

517
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 3: Instead of walking around feeling like you are in hawk

518
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 3: to the world by you know, the way you do

519
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 3: when you have a shameful secret. Having a positive secret

520
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 3: that you haven't shared with anyone feels like you have

521
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 3: a you have like a plus, you have a credit.

522
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 3: You know, you have a plus thing on the balance

523
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 3: that hasn't cleared yet.

524
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 1: Yeah.

525
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, So in they're abstract to the author's right. In

526
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 3: contrast to the prior research, five experiments total sample size

527
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 3: of twenty eight hundred find that positive secrets increase feelings

528
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 3: of energy relative to first of all content matched positive

529
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 3: non secrets. So it's not just that positive news increases

530
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 3: your energy, it's specifically when it is secret news, the

531
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 3: other thing being other pieces of unknown positive information, and

532
00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 3: finally other kinds of secrets. So that last part might

533
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 3: not be surprising. But yes, positive secrets are more energizing

534
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:07,479
Speaker 3: than negative secrets the author's right. Importantly, these energizing effects

535
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 3: of positive secrets were independent of positive affect We further

536
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 3: found that positive secrets are energizing because, compared to other

537
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 3: kinds of secrets, people keep them for more intrinsically than

538
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 3: extrinsically motivated reasons. That is, these secrets are more freely chosen,

539
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 3: more consistent with personal values, and more motivated by internal

540
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 3: desires than by external pressures. Using both measures and manipulations

541
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 3: of these motivations, we found that a motivational mechanism helps

542
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 3: explain the energizing effect of positive secrets. The present results

543
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 3: offer new insights into secrecy, how people respond to positive

544
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 3: life events, and the subjective experiences of vitality and energy.

545
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 3: And for a little more explication of this study, I

546
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 3: found a summary written for the Society for Personality and

547
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 3: Social Psychology by first author Michael Sleepian here and Sleepy

548
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 3: and explains their finding by first of all, by saying

549
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 3: a lot of times we don't keep positive news secret.

550
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 3: They started with a survey of five hundred people that

551
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 3: found when people learn good news, seventy six percent of

552
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 3: respondents said that the first thing they would do is

553
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 3: go tell someone. And you can almost kind of feel

554
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 3: that in those writings from the ancient world about the

555
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 3: mystery cults, where people are like, you know, I can't

556
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 3: tell you what the mysteries are, but I want it's

557
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 3: like it's really good, it's really good stuff. Like you

558
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 3: should go. You know, you talked to those multiple passages

559
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 3: where they're just exhorting readers. Go for yourself, check it out.

560
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, no spoilers, but it's wonderful.

561
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 3: But in contrast to this desire to immediately share good news,

562
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 3: the authors found there are distinct psychological benefits to keeping

563
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 3: good news a secret. So the authors one way they

564
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 3: investigated this was they took a list of thirty eight

565
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 3: common types of good news uh, and they found that,

566
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 3: on average, people had between five and six pieces of

567
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 3: good news that they were currently keeping to themselves for

568
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 3: the time being. Now, you might think, well, like what

569
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 3: kinds of good news? What would examples be? A very

570
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 3: common one was a self gift. That's what the authors

571
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 3: call it. It's when you have bought or otherwise treated

572
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 3: yourself to something special. Apparently, this is a common type

573
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 3: of secret people have and they feel good about it.

574
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: You're supposed to feel good about those. I feel bad

575
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 1: about this. I do too.

576
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 3: Every time I'm trying to get over it. Whenever I

577
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 3: like get myself something nice, I feel real guilty.

578
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, same, Yeah, I'm struggle. I don't think I

579
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 1: have any positive secrets I'm keeping myself at the moment,

580
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 1: I think I've let them all out.

581
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 3: Well, we'll see. We'll go down the list for a

582
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 3: few more common examples. What about a gift to another

583
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 3: person that they don't know about yet.

584
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, none of those right now either. I'm like in

585
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 1: one of those periods between birthdays and okay, in mother's

586
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 1: days and so forth.

587
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 3: How about having found something that the person was looking for.

588
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 3: This apparently often people are walking around feeling good about

589
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 3: having found the thing, but they didn't tell anybody they

590
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 3: found it.

591
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:08,839
Speaker 1: I had one of those a couple of days ago,

592
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: but then I gave it to them. So now that's tie.

593
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 3: So finally completing a task. Oh, this is a common thing, right.

594
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:18,840
Speaker 3: Oh you know, I finished writing this thing I was

595
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 3: working on, but I haven't talked to anybody about it.

596
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, all right, that makes sense.

597
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 3: So anyways, sleeping goes on to say, quote, across several studies,

598
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 3: we asked participants to think of a positive secret they

599
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 3: were keeping, and then measured their current mood and how

600
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 3: energized they felt in that moment. Another group of participants

601
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 3: were asked was asked to think of good news that

602
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,360
Speaker 3: was not secret for the same types of good news.

603
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 3: Thinking about the secret good news was more energizing than

604
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 3: thinking about non secret good news. Thinking about positive secrets

605
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 3: was also more energizing than thinking about positive information that

606
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 3: has not been shared for other reasons, such as when

607
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,839
Speaker 3: you intend to share good news with someone cannot talk

608
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 3: to them until later in the day. So I thought

609
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 3: that was a very interesting distinction to make there, at

610
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 3: least within this sample, given these controls, there's something specially

611
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 3: invigorating about having positive information that you specifically intend to

612
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 3: keep secret that you have made the choice not to

613
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 3: share with people, as opposed to just you haven't had

614
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:23,840
Speaker 3: a chance to tell them yet.

615
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 1: And you know it could be a sexy secret. Just

616
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 1: to come back to what we mentioned earlier.

617
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 3: It's certainly good. So I thought this was very interesting. Obviously,

618
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 3: these secrets being discussed here are also not a perfect

619
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,479
Speaker 3: analogy to the hidden truths of the mystery cults for

620
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,759
Speaker 3: multiple reasons, some of which we've already talked about, which

621
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 3: I'll get to in just a minute. So it's not

622
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 3: exactly the same kind of thing as being in on

623
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 3: the Secret of Ilusus or any of these other cults.

624
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 3: But I feel like it's closer than most of the

625
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 3: research we look at on secrecy, which is about like

626
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 3: something or you believe to be shameful that you're hiding.

627
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 3: And I can see how this kind of I know,

628
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 3: this bubbling up sense of energy that comes from thinking

629
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 3: about the secret that is good news to you, but

630
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,320
Speaker 3: you are choosing not to share with others. It seems

631
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 3: to be, as the author say, a kind of expression

632
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 3: of one's own intrinsic personality, like the fact that you

633
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 3: know this thing and others don't becomes a part of

634
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:30,279
Speaker 3: your identity. It becomes a way of thinking about who

635
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 3: you are. Part of who I am is that I

636
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 3: know this thing and I don't express it to other people,

637
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 3: at least unless they're initiated as well. And then maybe

638
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 3: that creates a whole second order thing of effects of

639
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 3: the kind of bonding you might experience with other initiates,

640
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 3: people you could talk to about the secret, and that

641
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 3: that creates a whole other sense of bonding and you

642
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 3: know their social benefits there as well.

643
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: We mentioned in passing the idea of weird fiction ideas

644
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 1: of cult, and it does occur to me that what

645
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 1: we're talking about here does match up in interesting ways

646
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 1: with some of the revelations that occur in weird fiction,

647
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 1: with those revelations being kind of an inversion of what

648
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 1: we're talking about here where I have I just went

649
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:20,879
Speaker 1: through some serious stuff and I got a real dark

650
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,320
Speaker 1: revelation about the secret nature of the universe, and it's

651
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:28,839
Speaker 1: sanity shredding, and I probably can't tell anyone about it

652
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 1: or properly convey it to other people. So that's that's

653
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 1: the sort of the negative version of what we're talking

654
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:35,800
Speaker 1: about here.

655
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 3: And might not even be able to put it into.

656
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 1: Words right right, It could be the opposite is like

657
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 1: I just went through this amazing ritual initiation to a

658
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,839
Speaker 1: strength dark God, and it was amazing. I have this

659
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 1: real clear cut vision of what the universe is all about.

660
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 1: Now I can't convey it to you in words, but

661
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: you've got to You've got to go to the cold

662
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 1: as well. That's the only way you're going to be

663
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:59,479
Speaker 1: able to understand what I'm even getting at here.

664
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,280
Speaker 3: Well, in that vein, this got me thinking about another

665
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,799
Speaker 3: way of framing the secrecy. What these secret rights are?

666
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:08,279
Speaker 3: You know, it came up in the Boden book that

667
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 3: it is something. Of course, there are there are mystic

668
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 3: rights of Dionysus as well. You know, this is one

669
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 3: of the famous mystery religions. It is sometimes said that

670
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 3: the god Dionysus appears only in disguise. In fact, he

671
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 3: is often represented by a mask, and that perhaps what's

672
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 3: going on is that when women went out into the

673
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 3: wild mountain side to participate in ecstatic music and dance

674
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,839
Speaker 3: and fulfill the mystic rights of Dionysus, something about that

675
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 3: profound experience meant that you would get to see the

676
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 3: god unmasked. You would see the true face of Dionysus,

677
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,879
Speaker 3: which is always kept in disguise with everyone else. And

678
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 3: it struck me that this is another way of thinking

679
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 3: about the type of secret that is revealed here, not

680
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:08,320
Speaker 3: as information divulged, but as either intimacy attained or true

681
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 3: form revealed, and both connect to the idea of seeing

682
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:16,279
Speaker 3: someone uncovered, either like unmasked in the sense of true

683
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 3: form revealed, or disrobed in the sense of intimacy. And

684
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,760
Speaker 3: I think this is often one of the most emotionally

685
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:29,320
Speaker 3: powerful types of Hiddennis revealed, of these moments of revelation

686
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 3: that we get in storytelling or in religious ritual or

687
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:35,280
Speaker 3: whatever you know in storytelling, if you're watching a play

688
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 3: or a movie when a masked character is suddenly unmasked,

689
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 3: and let's say, this is not like revealing them to

690
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 3: be some other character that we already know about. Instead,

691
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 3: we're just seeing somebody's face for the first time. This

692
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 3: might not really reveal much that can be encoded into words,

693
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 3: except maybe in a loose way by describing the face,

694
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 3: but it still feels like a profound type of revelation.

695
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 3: It's one of the most potent revelations there is. But

696
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 3: it's not really a clue or piece of information. It's

697
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 3: an experience of knowing someone. And I wonder if the

698
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 3: secrets of mystery cults actually felt a bit more like that.

699
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 3: It's not so much the secret password that you have learned,

700
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 3: though there are a few things like that, but a

701
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 3: masked face unmasked and is it is the face of

702
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 3: a god with unspeakable power over your life.

703
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,839
Speaker 1: Now, as we close out this four part look at

704
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:44,800
Speaker 1: the Mystery Cults, it makes sense to finally discuss properly

705
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 1: the end of the mysteries, and in doing so, on

706
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:51,240
Speaker 1: a briefly come back to the writings of Terence McKenna,

707
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: who We referenced Food of the Gods a little bit

708
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 1: in a previous episode on the Mystery Cults here and again.

709
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: The broader themes in the Food of the Odds concerned

710
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 1: the possible roles that in theogens may have played in

711
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 1: human evolution and the development of archaic human cultures with

712
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 1: a falling off and gradual descent with the advent of

713
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 1: Western civilization. And mckinna's does specifically point to the end

714
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:21,319
Speaker 1: of the Mystery Cults as one possible watershed moment in

715
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 1: all of this, one that helped reinforce quote the emergence

716
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 1: of the anti visionary dominator style of culture and this

717
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:34,879
Speaker 1: beginning to usher in a quote progressively more vacant, more

718
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 1: ego dominated world whose energies were coalescing into monotheism, patriarchy,

719
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 1: and male domination.

720
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 3: Tell us what you really think, Terrence.

721
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:46,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, And like I say, this is all very much

722
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:52,319
Speaker 1: part of his archaic revival Bohemian thread messaging. And I

723
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 1: will again say that I do think Food of the Gods.

724
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:59,919
Speaker 1: Whether you agree with with this some of the theories

725
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 1: that he's throwing out there, I do think it's it's

726
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 1: a better work of scholarship than some might assume, but

727
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 1: I found this commentary interesting. You know. In fact, many

728
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,919
Speaker 1: of the mystery cults were centered on mother goddesses and

729
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 1: or their consorts Sybil in the Roman Magna Mater clled

730
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 1: isis Demeter and Corey, who have talked about, as well

731
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 1: as the mother Goddess that we alluded to just several

732
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 1: minutes ago. So I think a lot of what he's

733
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 1: getting at does coalesce nicely with what we're discussing here.

734
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 1: To bring up another theorist, sort of outside thinker that

735
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 1: we've talked about on the show before, I'm not going

736
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:42,399
Speaker 1: to go down the complete bicameral bicameral mind rabbit hole.

737
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,879
Speaker 1: But Julian James refers to this time period as one

738
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 1: in which religions that adhere to more estatic or in

739
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 1: his writings, possessive rights are falling to quote, a siege

740
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 1: of rationalism as Christianity picks up steam and to be clear,

741
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:03,840
Speaker 1: changes during this time period to become an increasingly dominant religion,

742
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 1: certainly within the Roman Empire. M Yeah. Now, to be sure,

743
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 1: James was discussing all of this in his nineteen seventy

744
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:15,240
Speaker 1: six book to support his theory, regarding a gradual change

745
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:20,760
Speaker 1: in human consciousness from one of inherently experienced other voices

746
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 1: in the mind toward their increasing silence. You can go

747
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,279
Speaker 1: back and listen to our episodes where we discussed the

748
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 1: bicameral mind hypothesis in greater detail whether there is any

749
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,280
Speaker 1: truth to it. In the end, I do think James

750
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 1: was in part exploring some of the same changes we're

751
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:40,280
Speaker 1: discussing here in the Manifestation of religious experiences.

752
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's been a while in that, but you know,

753
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 3: I do remember thinking that despite obviously I'm not convinced

754
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 3: of the bicameral mind hypothesis, but I remember thinking a

755
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 3: lot of James's peripheral insights about the smaller matters were

756
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:56,280
Speaker 3: often quite interesting.

757
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think so. And you know, he is,

758
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:02,279
Speaker 1: you know, getting at some major shifts and changes that

759
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 1: were occurring, but there are a lot of different ways

760
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,440
Speaker 1: to tease apart what was happening and why Now in

761
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 1: in Boden's book, he of course gets into this and

762
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:13,319
Speaker 1: discusses the end of the mystery cults. As you know,

763
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 1: we previously discussed the Roman Empire's relative tolerance toward various

764
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 1: religions and cults was notable. As long as they didn't

765
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 1: conflict with Roman authority and didn't stir up trouble with

766
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 1: other faiths, then you know, things were generally tolerated.

767
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 3: I mean, there are other cases in the book he

768
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 3: talks about where other mystery religions were subject to some

769
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 3: regulation or suppression, say, if Roman authorities thought they were

770
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 3: contributing to disorder or thought that they might become a

771
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 3: might become sort of a launching point for political conspiracy.

772
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 3: In fact, I don't remember the specific example, but there

773
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 3: was one case where they limited certain cults. It might

774
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 3: have been ones related to Dionysus that you know, where

775
00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 3: it was like, you can't have too many people gathering

776
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 3: in secret. At the same time.

777
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 1: You could very well to sort of lean into Alan

778
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,800
Speaker 1: Moore's interpretation of GLIC and you can imagine them being like, yeah,

779
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,160
Speaker 1: this snake puppet is obviously fake. They can totally have this,

780
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 1: let's actually put it on some coins.

781
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 3: But driving the point that you know, the Romans, what

782
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 3: they were mainly concerned about was like actual here and

783
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 3: now power. When they were concerned with stamping out other

784
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 3: religious stuff, it was because they perceived it as some

785
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 3: kind of here and now power threat exactly.

786
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:33,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you might well ask about Christian persecution during

787
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 1: this time period as well, you know, feeding Christians to

788
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 1: lions and so forth. As we've discussed on the show

789
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 1: before in other episodes in the past, the persecution of

790
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:47,359
Speaker 1: Christians wasn't total and constant throughout this period. It's sort

791
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 1: of varied depending on who was in charge, with different fluctuations.

792
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 1: But after three thirteen CEE, Christian persecution comes to an

793
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:00,040
Speaker 1: end and in the Roman Empire and Christianity begins to

794
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 1: receive active support from the Emperor Constantine the Great, and

795
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:08,879
Speaker 1: Boden writes that this resulted in more and more converts

796
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:13,799
Speaker 1: to Christianity, and baptism began to be seen as a

797
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 1: preliminary ritual into this new popular faith, and notably Christian

798
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 1: baptism began to also lose its imagistic features in Christian faith.

799
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 1: So he gets to this, this is an interesting thing

800
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 1: to think about. So we're at this time where Christianity

801
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 1: is gaining in popularity, mystery cults are falling away, but

802
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 1: Christianity arguably is losing its mystery cult like attributes as

803
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 1: it rises in popularity. So there's a lot of interesting

804
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 1: transitions going on here.

805
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, Now, one topic that often comes up is it

806
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 3: does seem that the decline of mystery cults, like the

807
00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 3: general decline of Greek and Rome polytheism, is related to

808
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 3: the rise of Christianity. But like, what is the explanation there?

809
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 3: People have offered a lot of different theories over the

810
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 3: years what led to the success of Christianity within the

811
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:15,760
Speaker 3: Roman Empire. People have tried to explain it in terms

812
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 3: of like particular doctrines or attributes of Christian communities. Those

813
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:25,360
Speaker 3: arguments may have some weight to them, may not. But

814
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 3: one argument about the success of Christianity and the Roman

815
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:30,239
Speaker 3: Empire that I find very persuasive is just sort of

816
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:35,919
Speaker 3: a mathematical argument that was made, at least in one

817
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:39,399
Speaker 3: case by a previous show guest, the historian bart Erman,

818
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:41,400
Speaker 3: who's been on our show before. I interviewed him a

819
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 3: few years ago. He's a secular scholar of Christianity and

820
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 3: of the Bible and historian of this time period of

821
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:53,239
Speaker 3: early Christianity, and he makes the point that really the

822
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:55,719
Speaker 3: main thing Christianity had going for it in terms of

823
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:57,920
Speaker 3: its success in the Roman Empire is that it was

824
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:02,239
Speaker 3: an exclusive cult, whereas when you look at, say, look

825
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:05,320
Speaker 3: at the other mystery cults. You will have powerful Roman

826
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 3: people who are bragging about how many different mystery cults

827
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 3: they've been initiated to. Oh yeah, I did the Alusini

828
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 3: and I'm Demeter, I did this one, I did that one.

829
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 3: Look at it. I'm racking them up. I'm becoming so accomplished.

830
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 3: And Greek and Roman polytheism was generally of that sort.

831
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 3: There was no need to be exclusive with one god

832
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 3: or another. You could do some stuff for Apollo, you

833
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 3: could do some stuff with Demeter, and and that was

834
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 3: all fine. That Christianity was kind of unique, and that

835
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 3: when you converted to Christianity, you you didn't just add

836
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 3: that on to the list of gods you had some

837
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:42,760
Speaker 3: relationship with. You cut off relations with all the other gods.

838
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 3: So every time somebody converted to Christianity and stayed a

839
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:51,840
Speaker 3: christian that all of the other cults lost permanently lost

840
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:54,920
Speaker 3: and adherent and everybody that you know that flowed downstream

841
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:57,719
Speaker 3: from their household and so forth. So it was the

842
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:01,720
Speaker 3: exclusivity of Christianity when paired to these other religions, according

843
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:03,840
Speaker 3: to Ermin's argument, which I find pretty convincing.

844
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:08,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean you can imagine the ripples that

845
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 1: that creates in the religious ecosystem. Yeah, you suddenly can't

846
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:13,799
Speaker 1: just sort of, oh yeah, I'm a member of five

847
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:15,919
Speaker 1: different ones. No, you've got to commit. This religion wants

848
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 1: you to commit and settle down. And as that becomes

849
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:23,399
Speaker 1: popular and that becomes an increasing in group, yeah, its

850
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 1: power just grows socially.

851
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 3: Right, it's like a one way valve. People are mostly

852
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:29,919
Speaker 3: just flowing in and not back out.

853
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:32,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can't sort of have one foot

854
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 1: in and one foot out so much orly is not

855
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 1: as easily, not with as much social fluidity as had

856
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:43,240
Speaker 1: been possible before. Right. A lot has been written about

857
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:47,160
Speaker 1: the decline of mystery cults the rise of Christianity, about

858
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 1: the possible links between the two, especially the extent to

859
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:55,800
Speaker 1: which early Christianity was in many ways a mystery cult

860
00:49:56,280 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 1: and how you know, arguably Christianity becomes this sort of

861
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 1: anti visionary religion as it rises. And one thing that

862
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 1: that Boden points out is that you know that a

863
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:13,840
Speaker 1: lot of this comes down the scholarly debate often comes

864
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:17,240
Speaker 1: down to, you know, the agendas of whoever's making the argument.

865
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 1: So Protestant voices might argue, might have argued that early

866
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:25,239
Speaker 1: Christianity was corrupted by mystery cult influences and therefore needed correcting.

867
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 3: Oh because because they're doing an anti Catholic narrative. Yeah,

868
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:32,279
Speaker 3: so they're saying that stuff that the parts of Christianity

869
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 3: as practiced today that we don't approve of that came

870
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 3: from other religions.

871
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:41,839
Speaker 1: Right, right, And likewise, critics of Christianity in general, he says,

872
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 1: might argue that Christianity itself borrows heavily from the likes

873
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 1: of Mithraism, and that alone you can really get into

874
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 1: like a nuanced discussion of like how much of it

875
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:55,239
Speaker 1: is Christianity potentially borrowing from Mithraism or them just sort

876
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 1: of like being like on the same vibe, you know,

877
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:01,920
Speaker 1: and how much how much religious right is truly exclusive

878
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:03,040
Speaker 1: to anyone given faith.

879
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,640
Speaker 3: You could also argue that Christianity need not have borrowed

880
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 3: from Mythraism to have similarities. They could in fact, I mean,

881
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 3: of course, some similarities could just be coincidences in the

882
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 3: way that a lot of religions have similar things, But

883
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 3: you could also have a common ancestor, right, a lot

884
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 3: of religions have common ancestors things that shared, shared rituals

885
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 3: and stuff are derived from traditions that are found all

886
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:25,280
Speaker 3: over the place.

887
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:39,839
Speaker 1: Absolutely, so whatever the reason, mystery cults end up falling away,

888
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 1: their temples when destroyed, are sacked, are just often not rebuilt.

889
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:48,280
Speaker 1: Things fall into ruin or disrepair and are not re repaired.

890
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:53,880
Speaker 1: And Boden gets into this a bit as well, pointing

891
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:57,799
Speaker 1: out that the rise of Christianity it doesn't completely eradicate

892
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 1: static religious experience. Its watch, the history of Christianity is

893
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:07,160
Speaker 1: sprinkled with Christianistics and you know, no doubt many a

894
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:11,800
Speaker 1: squashed heresy that leans more into a static religious experience

895
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:15,040
Speaker 1: than is comfortable for the powers that be. And we

896
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:18,480
Speaker 1: can also point to various static religious practices from say,

897
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:23,360
Speaker 1: later Protestant movements. Snake handling is discussed in the book,

898
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:26,319
Speaker 1: but you can also apply this lens too much in

899
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 1: the revival and faith healing tradition as well.

900
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:33,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, Boden has a long section on snake handling, where

901
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 3: you know, when you read about snake handling, you really

902
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:39,400
Speaker 3: there's a lot of emphasis put on the snakes, or

903
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:42,160
Speaker 3: maybe on the other deadly things like the drinking of poison,

904
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:45,560
Speaker 3: And of course that is a big part of the practice,

905
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:50,960
Speaker 3: but it's also associated with just general ecstatic frenzy. You know,

906
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:55,120
Speaker 3: like a lot of these churches will have loud, powerful

907
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 3: music to coming back to the music once again, you know,

908
00:52:57,960 --> 00:52:59,800
Speaker 3: that gets you into a kind of trans and people

909
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaker 3: described the way like they feel like they're leaving their body,

910
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:05,239
Speaker 3: or they feel like the Holy Spirit has entered them,

911
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:09,239
Speaker 3: they have become another person in these loud, raucous ceremonies

912
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:13,160
Speaker 3: where yes, dangerous, deadly things are happening, people are handling

913
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:17,320
Speaker 3: venomous snakes, but it's also just it's it's a wild

914
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 3: array of sights and sounds.

915
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there are numerous examples of contemporary aesthetic dance

916
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 1: you can point to that have the same effect. I

917
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:31,479
Speaker 1: believe speaking in tongues in some Protestant traditions that's also

918
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 1: brought up. So, yeah, there are various examples of religious

919
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:40,879
Speaker 1: frenzy experienced by large groups. Boden does say that these

920
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 1: are generally discouraged in the grand arc of Christian history,

921
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 1: but they do exist, and you can also point to

922
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:52,560
Speaker 1: examples of it of it in other you know, surviving

923
00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 1: examples in other religions and contemporary faiths.

924
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:58,239
Speaker 3: This is not necessarily something that is backed up by

925
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:02,439
Speaker 3: say religious anthropolgy research is just a kind of gut

926
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 3: feeling I have, But I would tend to think that

927
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:11,239
Speaker 3: people who practice mystical or ecstatic religious worship stuff where

928
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 3: they get into an altered state of consciousness and believe

929
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:17,320
Speaker 3: they're having direct experience of the power of the gods,

930
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 3: are sometimes perceived as dangerous by religious authorities because that

931
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:26,799
Speaker 3: kind of experience lends itself to the production of new doctrine.

932
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:31,319
Speaker 3: Like people, there's an idea that heresy emerges from that

933
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:34,960
Speaker 3: kind of behavior, and not to label it as heresy

934
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:36,560
Speaker 3: or say what doctrine is right or wrong, but I

935
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:40,439
Speaker 3: think often new beliefs and new doctrines do come out

936
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:42,360
Speaker 3: of that kind of religious behavior.

937
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:45,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, and again going back to what we're talking about,

938
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 1: doctrinal religion is very top down. The people who interpret

939
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:53,720
Speaker 1: the words of God, the will of God, or God's

940
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:57,479
Speaker 1: they they're at the top, and they're filtering that down

941
00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:02,200
Speaker 1: to the followers. They're going to be very much opposed

942
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 1: in general to the idea that anything would be bottom up,

943
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 1: that anyone at the bottom would have new revelations, and

944
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 1: that God or the gods would still be speaking on

945
00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:15,960
Speaker 1: any level to anyone except the top of the hierarchy.

946
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:18,359
Speaker 3: Well, that's right. By definition, if you're on the top

947
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:21,280
Speaker 3: of a hierarchy, it is your job to maintain control.

948
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:22,840
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

949
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:25,000
Speaker 3: But it's also interesting that we see, you know, a

950
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 3: kind of top down control of some of these ancient

951
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:31,400
Speaker 3: mystery cults, Like so the culted Eleusis was administered, but

952
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:33,800
Speaker 3: you know, there was a religious hierarchy in place there,

953
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:36,360
Speaker 3: and we don't know all of the secrets, but it

954
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 3: seems quite likely that they were inviting people in to

955
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:43,160
Speaker 3: become initiated, to go through these rights, to have these weird,

956
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:47,640
Speaker 3: powerful experiences, and then probably we're not told what it meant,

957
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:50,560
Speaker 3: and we're just like sending people off to make their

958
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:52,879
Speaker 3: own sense of it, which, on one hand, you would

959
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:56,040
Speaker 3: imagine from from the point of view of somebody trying

960
00:55:56,080 --> 00:55:59,400
Speaker 3: to control a religious tradition, that seems dangerous for exactly

961
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:01,560
Speaker 3: the reasons we've just been talking about. But that seems

962
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:04,839
Speaker 3: like probably what was going on there, So I don't know.

963
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:08,960
Speaker 3: Maybe there are other ways in which it's it's empowering

964
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:11,480
Speaker 3: in the right ways, like it it creates the right

965
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:13,839
Speaker 3: kind of effect that sends more and more people your

966
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 3: way every year, and that's a that's a fair trade

967
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:19,480
Speaker 3: maybe from some religious hierarchy's point of view.

968
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:23,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, this topic has just been so fascinating to

969
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:28,440
Speaker 1: think about, not only in exploring how ancient peoples thought

970
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:32,320
Speaker 1: about their faith, about their world and their place in

971
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:36,720
Speaker 1: the universe, but also the various ways we can apply

972
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:40,280
Speaker 1: what they seem to believe to what people believe today,

973
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:43,360
Speaker 1: and also the reverse, how we can take what we

974
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:48,480
Speaker 1: can and can't take from modern religiosity and apply to

975
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:51,799
Speaker 1: their world. Yeah. So it's been it's been really fun

976
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:54,080
Speaker 1: to research and record these Yeah.

977
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:56,640
Speaker 3: I mean, whenever you study something like this, there is

978
00:56:56,640 --> 00:57:00,440
Speaker 3: always you always just keep catching yourself in turn cotting

979
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:03,799
Speaker 3: what you're reading about or seeing through a lens that's

980
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:07,239
Speaker 3: probably just too familiar, that's just too based on what

981
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:11,760
Speaker 3: something would mean in your own cultural context, and you're

982
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:15,959
Speaker 3: not remembering to let it be alien and ambiguous enough

983
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:18,000
Speaker 3: to you because you just don't know the context well

984
00:57:18,120 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 3: enough to make sense.

985
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:19,680
Speaker 1: Of it, right.

986
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:23,320
Speaker 3: And and I know, whenever we do these historical topics

987
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 3: or topics about you know, cultures other than our own,

988
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:29,840
Speaker 3: there's always a tendency to it's just too easy to

989
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:32,600
Speaker 3: feel confident that you understand what something means because you

990
00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:35,600
Speaker 3: know what it would mean to you. It might not

991
00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:37,160
Speaker 3: mean that to the person involved.

992
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:40,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, like the snake puppet. You know, we know what

993
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:44,520
Speaker 1: Lucian thought about it. We may have in our idea

994
00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:46,640
Speaker 1: in our head, some idea of what we would think

995
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:48,560
Speaker 1: about it if we went to a religious service and

996
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:50,960
Speaker 1: there was an obvious puppet. But as for the people

997
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:53,920
Speaker 1: that were there in attendance and perhaps came back and

998
00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:57,280
Speaker 1: didn't feel, you know, ripped off by what they experienced,

999
00:57:57,600 --> 00:57:59,120
Speaker 1: you know, who's to say?

1000
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:02,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I guess all that just to say, like,

1001
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:06,960
Speaker 3: you know, to survey the world past and present with

1002
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:10,640
Speaker 3: open eyes, but be cautious about interpreting what you see.

1003
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:13,640
Speaker 3: You might be jumping to conclusions. I know we do sometimes.

1004
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:16,840
Speaker 1: All Right, We're going to go ahead and close the

1005
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:19,160
Speaker 1: book here on the mystery cults, but we'd love to

1006
00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:21,840
Speaker 1: hear from everyone out there if you have thoughts on

1007
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:24,800
Speaker 1: the broader subject here, particular of mystery cults that we

1008
00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:28,920
Speaker 1: talked about, mystery cults that we didn't talk about write in.

1009
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:31,720
Speaker 1: We would love to hear from you. Just a reminder

1010
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:33,800
Speaker 1: once more that stuff to blow your mind is primarily

1011
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:36,200
Speaker 1: a science and culture podcast with core episodes on Tuesdays

1012
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 1: and Thursdays. On Wednesdays we air a short form episode,

1013
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 1: and on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to

1014
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:45,520
Speaker 1: just talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema.

1015
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:50,560
Speaker 1: You can follow us on various social media accounts, including Instagram,

1016
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:53,920
Speaker 1: where we are STBYM podcast, So if you use that platform,

1017
00:58:53,960 --> 00:58:57,280
Speaker 1: follow us there. There's activity on numerous ones right now,

1018
00:58:57,320 --> 00:58:59,080
Speaker 1: but that one is perhaps one of the more active

1019
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:02,959
Speaker 1: ones that we're still working on getting our follower base

1020
00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:07,960
Speaker 1: up on that platform again, having lost a previous version

1021
00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:09,400
Speaker 1: of our Instagram account.

1022
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:12,640
Speaker 3: And let's see what else story is now denied to us?

1023
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:14,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, the mysteries are denied to us. I think it

1024
00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:16,360
Speaker 1: was finally eradicate. Were just locked out of it for

1025
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:18,920
Speaker 1: a long time and then it was fine, it's finally gone.

1026
00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:20,520
Speaker 1: But now we just have to build up the new one.

1027
00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:22,919
Speaker 1: Let's see. And then where else are we? Oh, we're

1028
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:26,080
Speaker 1: on the letterbox. If you are into our Weird House

1029
00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 1: Cinema episodes, you can follow us on the letterbox where

1030
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:30,600
Speaker 1: we are a weird house. And that's a great way

1031
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:32,520
Speaker 1: to keep up with the movies that we're discussing on

1032
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:33,520
Speaker 1: Weird House Cinema.

1033
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:37,760
Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

1034
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:39,560
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

1035
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:42,000
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

1036
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:44,040
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

1037
00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:46,800
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

1038
00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:55,320
Speaker 3: your Mind dot com.

1039
00:59:55,480 --> 00:59:58,400
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1040
00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:01,280
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1041
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:16,880
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