WEBVTT - Seeing EM Fund Outflows Accelerate, More Pain To Come: Sassower 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:08.720 Welcome to the Bloomberg pim L Podcast. I'm pim Fox. 0:00:08.760 --> 0:00:11.440 Along with my co host Lisa A. Brahmowitz. Each day 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:15.000 we bring you the most important, noteworthy, and useful interviews 0:00:15.040 --> 0:00:17.520 for you and your money, whether you're at the grocery 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:20.560 store or the trading floor. Find the Bloomberg p m 0:00:20.680 --> 0:00:33.320 L Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and Bloomberg dot com. 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:38.280 Well live by emerging markets and potentially die by emerging markets. 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:42.440 Damian sass Our, fixed income strategist for Bloomberg Intelligence, joins 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:44.600 us now to tell us all about how it is 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:49.120 the worst year since two thousand four for emerging market 0:00:49.240 --> 0:00:52.920 box that was quick. Well, it's just a month ago 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:55.280 we were here talking about how great emerging market. That's 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:58.840 my point. And what happened in the last month at 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:00.600 the dollar, right, I mean we've and talking about the 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:03.640 dollar for so long, about dollar strength and how it's 0:01:03.680 --> 0:01:05.880 just managed to be this one way street. And since 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:11.000 that's against the your right now, one thirty five against 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:15.119 the pounds sterling and one o nine against the Japanese. Yeah, him, 0:01:15.160 --> 0:01:17.080 it's amazing. You know, everyone always looks at the G 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:20.479 three currency crosses, but it's China. I have to tell 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:22.600 you it's been the remnimbi that that is, that is 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:24.759 what's changed, right, I mean, for the past year, you've 0:01:24.760 --> 0:01:27.680 seen the Chinese wand basically on a one way street 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:30.520 appreciating relative to the dollar. And that turned about a 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:33.000 month ago in mid April, and that's what drove everything here. 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:36.160 China dubbishness kind of crept in and people started to say, 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:39.200 we'll wait a second now, Um, maybe the PBSC is 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:42.080 gonna let the currency depreciate, and what does that mean 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:43.839 for the you know, what does that mean for the dollar? 0:01:43.920 --> 0:01:46.560 And of course people woke up to the reality that well, 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:48.160 that's that's good for the dollar and that's bad for 0:01:48.200 --> 0:01:51.120 you am. So just to sort of walk through the 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:54.320 logic here, typically when the dollar strengthens, that means all 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:57.120 of these developing nations that have borrowed a lot of 0:01:57.160 --> 0:02:01.040 hard currency assets what a harder time paying back their debt. 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:04.280 Is that the main reason here, Well, that's one element 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:06.560 of it, right, I mean, you're obviously talking about all 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:10.720 of the emerging market UH borrowers who have issued dollar debt, 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:13.600 but their local government debt, you know, their local currency 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:16.600 debt is what the real killer here is because the 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:19.040 currency it's dominated in is no longer worth what it's 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:22.359 written on. So that is part of the issue. Now 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:25.280 here is the question, have we reached a point where 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:28.320 the sell off has escalated to such a degree that 0:02:28.440 --> 0:02:33.320 people are coming in and buying buying opportunities. I'll tell 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:35.600 you what I mean by that. But the buying opportunities 0:02:35.600 --> 0:02:38.120 that we've seen in EM debt have only been an 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:41.080 i M dollar debt, and they've only been idiosyncratic opportunities 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:43.720 in names like Tava, which had sold off significantly or 0:02:43.760 --> 0:02:46.760 at a brash But certainly we have not seen new 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:49.359 money coming in and saying these are attractive levels we're 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:52.480 getting paid. You know, we're getting attractive yields, attractive carried 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:54.840 and i M dollar debt to go in at this stage, 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:56.919 we're not seeing that yet in factor seeing fund flows 0:02:56.960 --> 0:03:00.919 accelerate of fund outflows accelerate right now. So I think 0:03:00.960 --> 0:03:02.799 we still have a little bit of pain left left 0:03:02.800 --> 0:03:05.200 ahead of us. But fundamentally e M is still you know, 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:07.640 in a relatively good place relative to where it's been 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:10.880 just in during the less paper uh and and another 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:12.640 you know kind of a venture of a you know, 0:03:12.680 --> 0:03:15.480 sort of event risk elevated event risk environments, and so 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:19.639 you know, I think this is a correction that's long overdue. Um. 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:21.600 I think we gotta wait and see it play through. 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:24.960 I think, though, UM, the real interesting dynamic within emerging 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:29.480 market debt right now is local currency yields are actually 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:32.680 below and on a duration adjusted to basis, are about 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:35.480 to sink below em dollar yields for the first time 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:38.320 since the global financial crisis. So you are not getting 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:40.720 paid to go local in e M. And oh hey, 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:45.600 by the way, currency volatility is way more volatile than 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:47.640 than than e M dollar spreads, and that's a real 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:52.680 risk Argentina. Go ahead, that's not the punch line. That's 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:57.640 the question Argentina, so so blended yields uh in Argentina 0:03:57.720 --> 0:04:01.040 right now dollar yields. So the risk here is do 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:03.400 we go out and try to, you know, take a 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:06.520 punt on getting a twenty pay out around UM in 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:10.880 Argentina dollar bonds with the currency risk and the currency 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:13.840 volatility that has just been absolutely off the charts. I mean, 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:16.720 I think it's down in the last three weeks since 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:20.000 we spoke last you know, I'm struck by and and 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:23.040 PIM you mentioned Argentina and This is a perfect segue. 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:26.640 It's not just Argentina. You have Turkey, you have the 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:30.359 Philippines raising rates in order to support their currency. You 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:33.040 have others as well. So yes, on a whole, perhaps 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:35.200 emerging markets are in a better position, which you have 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:39.120 these trouble spots that are very troubled spots with increasing trouble. 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:41.800 And I wonder, especially given the fact, as we've talked 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:44.719 many times before, how much money went in through indexed 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:47.800 strategies trying to get ahold of the entire complex of 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:50.720 emerging markets, how much just a couple of bad names 0:04:50.760 --> 0:04:54.760 contained the reputation and cause a flood of withdrawals. Absolutely, 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:56.400 I mean this all begin with Russian and in many 0:04:56.440 --> 0:04:58.839 respects this is really like as soon as Russia and 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:01.080 the sanctions on Russia, Russol and all that kind of 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:03.360 started to hit and people started to reevaluate. What We'll 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:05.360 wait a second here, the rubles now off ten percent? 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:07.960 What other countries are vulnerable? You know, what does this 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:12.760 mean for Turkey? What does this mean they actually have oil? Well, yeah, 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:14.960 you're right right, I mean a lot of countries don't 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:17.800 have that commodity base. You know, it's it's but what 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:19.960 we're so far off and by the time they actually 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:22.040 drive for some of that deep sea oil or gas 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:24.440 whatever is under the base. And I mean we might 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:28.320 be an electric powered economy. So we really can't you know, 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:30.440 we can't obviously model that in I think I think 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:32.560 for me and for what what we're looking at is, 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:35.520 you know, Argentina is a funny one, Pim. I mean, 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:38.400 you know, it's just come back online, it's a serial 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:41.480 default or it's got its own set of risks. But Turkey, 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:43.359 I think we're getting to a point here, you know, 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:45.040 where you have to you just have to take a 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:46.640 look at it. I mean, some of the yields I 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:49.120 mean are just you just have to take a look 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:51.479 at it, you know. And certainly Turkish financials, which I get. 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:53.279 You know, there's a lot of there's a lot of 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:56.640 negative narrative around guarantee and bank and and and all 0:05:56.680 --> 0:05:59.440 that's going on in that sector. But I mean, you know, 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:01.600 some of those banks are bell Weather, some of them 0:06:01.640 --> 0:06:06.240 are are you know, fundamentally healthy right now and um 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:07.840 and so you have to begin to look at those 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:11.720 at those opportunities. I can say, Tim, is it right here, Damien. 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:19.200 He has a very strong stomach to be recommended, saying 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:23.960 fields are very high, they are high fial. Look, you 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:28.359 know there's this. We have an election coming up in Mexico. Yeah. Uh, 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:31.800 and uh. The Mexican economy, at least the government part 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:34.800 of the economy, depends a lot on oil revenue. The 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:38.880 leader in the polls is basically saying we don't want 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:42.279 foreign investment in the oil economy. Yeah. Yeah, Now, I 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:44.599 mean that is a risk, right, I mean, um am 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:46.760 Loo is definitely leading in the polls, and for all 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:48.599 intents and purposes, he is probably gonna be there. But 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:50.919 I do I I'm not going to recommend it. But 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:53.200 one area that does look rather attractive. And I'll tell 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:55.920 you why. Our Mexican high grade debt short duration. And 0:06:56.440 --> 0:06:58.440 that's like an America Movil or a Televisa. And the 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:02.000 reason I say that is Mexico tends to track, especially 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:05.240 in Mexican dollar debt tends to track US debt, right, 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:07.840 US high grade debt and US high grade debt. I mean, 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:09.880 with the front end of the curve kind of ratcheting 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:12.360 up here, I mean, you've got some attractive yields now 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:14.960 and names that were you know, I mean, you just couldn't. 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:16.760 You couldn't invest in it before because you just weren't 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:18.800 getting paid to own American mobile bonds, and now you 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:21.800 are and short duration American mobile bonds. So I think 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:24.960 in some pockets of the market, Brazilian financials, for example, 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:27.320 Brazilian has one of the steepest yield curves out there. 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:29.920 So you think, you know, steep yiel curve is good 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:32.640 for for the financial sector. And it's also short duration debt, right, 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:34.800 because I mean, that's that's the buzz, right, you want 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:37.320 to go short duration, and so that's another area you 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:38.880 may want to take a look at as well. It's 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:42.360 how Bradesco some some banks there that might might look 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:46.440 pretty interesting at these levels. Amazing, really really interesting. Damian Sassare, 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:49.120 thank you so much for being with us. Damian sassaur 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:52.520 It talked about how a month ago it all looked different, 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:56.360 but not to him back to back in a month 0:07:56.360 --> 0:08:00.640 and it will be completely different. You get to his chair. 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:04.800 Fixing Cup strategist at Bloomberg Intelligence, joining us here at 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:09.320 the Bloomberg World count Quarters thirty Lexington. We are broadcasting 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:13.360 live from Bloomberg's Business of Equality Summit, bringing together business 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:16.720 leaders and thinkers to talk about how to make the 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:35.600 workplace a better, more equal, and comfortable place for everybody. 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:39.760 We are broadcasting from Bloomberg Business of Equality Summit in 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:43.199 New York City are corporate headquarters. We bring together business, 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:46.160 academic and political leaders, as well as the leaders of 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:49.480 nonprofits to talk about changes in the world of business 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:53.480 and equality and diversity. Joining us now is Elizabeth A. 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:57.120 Yama Yaro, a senior advisor to the Under Secretary General 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:01.280 and Executive Director of the United Nations for You and Women. 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:03.160 She's also the global head of the u n S 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:07.800 He for She Movement and you can follow her on 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:11.920 Twitter at e Underscore Yama Yarrow. But there is an 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:14.600 end before that. Um Elizabeth, thank you very much for 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:16.839 being with us. Tell us what is the Heat for 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:21.720 She movement? It is the global solidarity movement for gender 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:24.679 equality that was set up three years ago to engage 0:09:24.720 --> 0:09:27.520 men and boys as part of the solution. So we 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:31.800 are waking at grassroot level, but also working with global companies, 0:09:32.040 --> 0:09:36.520 global CEOs, heads or states academia to create tangible solutions 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:41.640 for gender equality. So how much does war impede these uh, 0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:44.360 these issues that you're focusing on, Because if I think 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:47.760 about gender equality, I think about equal pay, but then 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:49.719 I also think about the reports that we hear out 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:53.720 of Syria or other places where there is war and 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:56.360 women are getting raped and killed, or India for example. 0:09:56.640 --> 0:09:59.920 So talked a little bit about that this is actually 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:02.400 one of the crisis of our time, the issue of 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:05.320 gender inequality, because when you look at every single level 0:10:05.320 --> 0:10:09.960 of society is socially, economically, politically, women are not doing well. Uh, 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:13.320 there's lack of representation, but there's also abuse. Um the 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:16.240 issue of violence that you mentioned. Globally, one in three 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:18.840 women will be subject to violence in their lifetime. That's 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:22.000 one billion women working around wounded. So the issues of 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:24.840 gender equality really we're in a crisis moment and we've 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:27.120 got to figure out a where that we can you know, 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:30.080 support women and girls and and really create tree equality 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:33.520 in these societies. Can you just offer an example of 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:37.640 one of the experiences for the He for She movements 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:41.200 something that has actually taken place. The biggest achievement that 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:45.000 we've done is to create this initiative called the Impact Initiative, 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:48.200 where we engage ten heads of states from the Prime 0:10:48.240 --> 0:10:53.640 Prime Minister of Japan, Prime Minister of Canada, to Wander Malawi, 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:58.120 um to the Scandinavian countries and also global CEOs, whether 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:00.560 it be the chairman of PwC. We was just with 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:03.760 on a panel today at the Bloomberg Summit um too, 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:06.480 you know, UNI Live, et cetera. But the biggest thing 0:11:06.640 --> 0:11:10.640 that these champions are doing is they have identified critical 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:13.840 policy areas that they are going to literally achieve parity 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:16.920 on by twenty So if you look at p w say, 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:19.640 we're here today talking about how the company have been 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:22.920 able to move the data point in their global leadership 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:25.440 team from eighteen percent in twenty fifteen when they joined 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:29.480 the here Foreshen movement to for within fifteen months. So 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:32.240 who has been the least receptive of the world leaders 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:36.160 who you've spoken to? We again, here for shas an 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:39.280 open invitation to those that want to be on the 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:41.360 rest side of history. And so what we've done was 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:43.960 to really issue core to action and we ended up 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:45.640 with those leaders that actually want to be part of 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:49.439 the change. So who is notably absent? I don't think 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:52.240 I can single out anyone. It is a pilot initiative. 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:56.840 So we started with ten countries in terms of governments, 0:11:56.920 --> 0:11:59.440 and the ten companies the countries that came to us. 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:03.400 I've really defined some concrete change. Malawi is on. You know, 0:12:03.480 --> 0:12:05.520 they have now outlawed child marriage as part of the 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:09.160 Heathshire Commitment. In a spece of twelve months, the chiefs, 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:11.880 the male chiefs in Malawi worked with the female chiefs 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:14.040 and went around and are now more than three thousand, 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:16.480 five hundred child marriages and these girls are now back 0:12:16.520 --> 0:12:18.800 in school. So we are seeing that those those who 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:21.000 want to build the rest sort of history are doing 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:23.959 something very concrete and very inspiring. Can you talk a 0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:26.400 little bit about your own background and how you came 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:29.760 to be part of this UN initiative. I grew up 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:32.720 in a tiny village in Zimbabwe and when I was 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:35.559 eight years old, the United Nations came into my village. 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:38.400 We're going through one of our West drought and I 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:40.560 was starving. I had not eaten for several days and 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:43.680 literally the UN saved my life. A young woman who 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:47.160 happened to be Zimbabwe but worked for UNI SEV found 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:49.320 me underneath the street, give me a ball of hom 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:51.680 porridge and literally, you know, I survived. And I knew 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:54.480 from that early young age that I wanted to work 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:56.480 for the U n and so I pursued that vision 0:12:56.520 --> 0:12:58.600 and have now been with the UN for fifteen years, 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:03.280 working for different entities from UNA's in Geneva who I've 0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:05.320 also worked at the World Bank, and now I'm with 0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:07.760 You and Women as the senior advisor to the under 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:11.080 Sector General. So how young were you when you loved Zimbabwe? 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:15.280 So I left Simbabwe in my early twenties, moved to 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:18.160 the United Nations with two fifty pounds to my name, 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:20.800 with not friends or family. I had my dream though, 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:24.120 to become this young girl who worked for the United Nations, 0:13:24.200 --> 0:13:27.280 wore a blue uniform, and I ended up, you know, 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:30.720 studying political science and the London School of Economics. And 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:32.839 and here we are well, thank you so much for 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:35.679 joining us. So really fascinating to speak with you, and 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:38.319 we will she the best of luck in the initiative. 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:42.479 Elizabeth Yummy Yarrow is Senior Advisor to the Under Secretary 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:45.400 General and executive director of You and Women. She is 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:49.520 also the global head for You and He for SHE movement. 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:53.040 She is joining us here from the Bloomberg Business of 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:58.120 Equality Summit in our seven thirty Lexington Avenue headquarters here 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:02.720 in New York. Really interesting, and it's definitely interesting to 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:04.520 hear about all of the different challenges and sort of 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:08.960 uniting thread between them all through different nations and different challenges. 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:26.280 They're sort of a disconnect in Silicon Valley where you 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:30.680 think of a sort of socially progressive and liberal attitude, 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:34.280 while the pay gap between the genders has widened and 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:37.520 there's talk of the Broo topia. The Emily Chang of 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:40.400 Bloomberg Television wrote about here to talk about how to 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:43.280 make the tech world perhaps a little bit more equal 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:46.120 is a Neil dash He is chief executive of fog 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:49.280 Creek Software in New York. He also was an advisor 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:52.600 to the Obama White House's Office of Digital Strategy. We're 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:54.280 so glad that you could join us. Thank you for 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:57.400 being here. So what is sort of at the root 0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:01.280 of this inequality that persists between the genders even in 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:03.680 Silicon Value. You know, there's there's a lot of good intention, 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:06.880 as you said, and then there is the self reflection 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:09.560 and the challenge of changing yourself and saying what am 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:11.920 I doing wrong? Is it just thinking the right things 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:15.960 enough to get it done? And then there is I 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:19.040 think the slightly more legitimate excuses we're moving a breakneck speed. 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:22.800 Everything is changing really rapidly. I'll get to fixing all 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:25.600 this social stuff once everything is settled down. Of course, 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:27.960 there is no settling down at tech, and so they 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:29.720 sort of, you know, kick the can down the road 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:32.560 a lot, and that's that's the most charitable interpretation. And 0:15:32.600 --> 0:15:34.560 then we have people that that say they care and 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:36.440 just don't you know, which is one of those things 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:38.240 that we have to reckon with as an industry. I 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:40.720 think all those things combining together to close off a 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:43.400 lot of opportunity, um, you know, for the for the 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:45.600 companies that aren't involving in that way. In our case, 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:49.080 we're small independent company. Um we we we build a 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:51.160 cycle called Flitch, which is like a YouTube for coders. 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:54.680 So we're competing for talent with Facebook, with Google. Um 0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:56.480 by us being able to plan a flag and say 0:15:56.480 --> 0:16:00.000 we're really going to stand on you know, meaningful measures 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:03.680 that push for equity and push for inclusion, that's been 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:06.200 a competitive advantage for us, Even things like simply doing 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:08.880 salary transparency where people know what their salary is going 0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:10.400 to be when we hire them. That opens the door 0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:13.480 to us attracting talent that others can and Neil, could 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:15.440 you just describe a little bit of your background in 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:18.960 the world of blogging, so pea understand how you came 0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:22.640 to be, I believe one of the few people that 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:27.880 could count prints as well as Bill Gates among their 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:30.600 at least their previous followers. Yeah. Yeah, it's a it's 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:32.440 a very um you know, social media used to be 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:35.000 a small world, right, So I started blogging twenty years ago, 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:38.200 and you had to be fairly interested in both technology 0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:41.280 and media at that point to do both. And so, um, 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:43.040 you know, I've been making software. You know, we had 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:45.400 the back then it was you know, Windows ninety eight 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:47.920 or whatever it was. Yeah, this sort of um, conventional 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:51.400 software industry. But the age six apart was was you Yeah, yeah, 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:53.200 I was the first employee there, and we made tools 0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:55.520 like movable type, which was one of the early blogging tools, 0:16:55.920 --> 0:16:58.000 and um, and people took that and used that to 0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:00.280 make huffing and post or to make gawk, or to 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:02.600 make all these sort of you know, really prominent early 0:17:02.680 --> 0:17:05.359 media sites. And like I said, you were combining technology 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:07.840 and media. And you know, in Bloomberg that might be 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:10.359 pretty obvious that a lot of other places it wasn't. 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:13.359 And um, and so that was one of those moments 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:17.040 where we realized what in retrospect became social media would 0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:19.840 be the thing that defined technology to people even more 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:22.800 than uh, you know, using a spreadsheet program or something 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:24.639 like that. And so out of that that sort of 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:26.679 community of people that were paying attention that came a 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:29.320 lot of the early social network and social media platforms, 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:31.000 as well as a lot of the sort of big 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:33.280 innovators and adventures that I think have gone on to 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:37.159 become household names. Does does it ever cause you some 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:42.359 kind of irony that the social media explosion has come 0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:47.679 back to create I don't want to say a social media, 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:51.160 but certainly social media where you don't know who's behind 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:54.320 the information, you don't know what their agenda is, and 0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:56.680 there's very little way in which you can track it 0:17:56.720 --> 0:17:59.080 and hold people accountable. Yeah, there were, you know, there 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:03.200 were a lot of maybe faulty assumptions is one way 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:05.440 to put it, or even just sort of shortsighted assumptions 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:08.080 about how the systems were designed, you know, the the 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:10.959 idea when you're building tools. In two thousand or two 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:13.359 thousand five or two thousand and six on Twitter launched 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:15.560 that maybe a billion people would show up and use 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:18.240 your tool would be absurd. So so this idea that 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:20.040 they were going to design to anticipate that was a 0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:22.800 little unexpected. I think what became of that was assuming 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:24.560 everybody who's gonna be part of the same community is 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:27.520 part of the same clique. Didn't anticipate the values everybody had, 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:31.639 didn't anticipate building accountability for everyone. So given that, and 0:18:31.680 --> 0:18:35.199 given where the social media world has come from, do 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:39.560 you think that Facebook and uh it's rivals have adequately 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:42.399 addressed some of these security concerns as well as some 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:45.679 of the social concerns. Uh No, you know, there's so 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:47.879 much more to do. And and this actually goes to 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:50.560 the earlier point about inclusion in the industry. If if 0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:52.919 more of the people in power at Facebook and these 0:18:52.920 --> 0:18:55.760 other companies where the people that get targeted and harassed 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:59.600 online or to get marginalized by these technologies, I think 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:02.760 you would see very different designs and very different prioritizations 0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:04.919 other products. I think they're starting to reckon with it. 0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:06.159 I mean, there are a ton of good people at 0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:07.960 these companies and they want to do the right thing. 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:10.560 But it's a lot easier to prevent than it is 0:19:10.600 --> 0:19:13.320 to try and cure after the harms have already been caused. 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:15.280 That's what I was going to ask, is it's one 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:18.040 thing to go and consciously try to be diverse, But 0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:20.800 isn't there some kind of business advantage have you found 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:23.800 to hiring people with different points of view? Yeah? Yeah, 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:26.879 I mean you you end up with them anticipating uh, 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:29.080 you know, flaws or weaknesses. And I look at this 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:31.800 as sort of um, you know, and and the conventional 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:33.919 tech industry that things that everybody pays attention to our 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:38.199 security scalability issues like that, and you always anticipate it. 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:39.760 You sort of say, this is the next area where 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:43.040 we're gonna have to anticipate an area of vulnerability. I 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:45.280 look at the same thing with culture. Culture debt is 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:48.000 just like technical debt. It's something that you um one 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:50.480 way or another. You're gonna pay right one way or another. 0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:53.480 You're gonna have to address these things that you were 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:56.960 shortsighted on or that you underinvested in. Why not be preventative. 0:19:57.240 --> 0:19:59.520 I look at it as you know, it's the right 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:01.800 thing to do morally and ethically, that's where it starts. 0:20:02.040 --> 0:20:04.280 But it's also a great way to manage risk as 0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:07.920 a company that's, you know, really operating extremely competitive environment. 0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:10.240 Let's reduce our risk and increase the odds that we're 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:12.520 gonna be able to compete against these giant players. I 0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:14.240 want to thank you very much for joining us. You're 0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:16.480 gonna be blogging about this right absolutely and tweeting about 0:20:16.520 --> 0:20:18.919 it too. Well done. Thanks very much. That she is 0:20:18.920 --> 0:20:22.480 the chief executive of fog Creek, a software one of 0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:25.439 the many attendees here at the Business of Equality Summit 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:29.840 at our New York City corporate headquarters and brings together 0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:33.040 a variety of business, academic and nonprofit leaders to talk 0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:51.119 about equality and diversity in the workplace. A sixty two 0:20:51.400 --> 0:20:56.000 billion dollar bet on orphan drugs to treat diseases such 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:59.879