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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hello, today, I'd like to bring you a cautionary

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Speaker 1: tale from one of the other podcasts in the pushkin

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Speaker 1: industry's family. It's called The Dream and it's a co

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Speaker 1: production with Little Everywhere. The host of The Dream, Jane Marie,

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Speaker 1: is with me.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Cautionary Tales.

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Speaker 3: Jane, Hi, Tim, Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Oh, it's my pleasure. I've really been enjoying listening to

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Speaker 1: some of the back catalog of The Dream. We're into

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Speaker 1: the third season. Your previous seasons looked at the world

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Speaker 1: of wellness and pyramid schemes. Very interesting from a point

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Speaker 1: of view of cautionary Tales. So before we talk about

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Speaker 1: the Curren season, what were you trying to do with

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Speaker 1: those earlier episodes.

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Speaker 3: Some of my favorite stories in radio and podcasting are

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Speaker 3: about things that are you know, right in front of

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Speaker 3: your face, that you just don't actually know what's happening.

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Speaker 3: Multi level marketing has been part of my life since

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Speaker 3: I was a baby. My grandmother's sold mary Kay and

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Speaker 3: Tupperware and Avon and now we know their pyramid schemes,

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Speaker 3: but when I was a kid, it was just you know,

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Speaker 3: ladies getting together and having fun.

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Speaker 1: When you say multi level marketing. You're not just selling

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Speaker 1: whatever makeup. You're selling the idea of being a makeup

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Speaker 1: selling agent.

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Speaker 3: You're selling the American Dream. You're selling financial freedom, you're

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Speaker 3: selling a small business.

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Speaker 1: You're selling the dream. The hence the name of the podcast,

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Speaker 1: The Dream.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and the book.

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Speaker 3: I wrote a book it's coming out in March called

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Speaker 3: Selling the Dream about all this stuff.

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Speaker 1: You heard it here first, guys.

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Speaker 3: I like looking into worlds where we think we know

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Speaker 3: what's going on and we really don't.

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Speaker 1: So you're exploring in these three seasons, you're exploring three

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Speaker 1: different manifestations of the American Dream. That's right, Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: so is it partly that the system isn't delivering and

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Speaker 1: so people reach for ever more implausible workaround.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, And what all of them have in common is

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Speaker 3: kind of a quick fix.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 3: So with multi level marketing, it's all you need is

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Speaker 3: one hundred bucks and you don't even need a high

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Speaker 3: school diploma, and you can run an empire if you

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Speaker 3: want to. With wellness, you don't need to do chemo.

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Speaker 3: Just take this pill, right this is it's or rub

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Speaker 3: this essential oil on your body. And with life coaching,

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Speaker 3: you don't really need a therapist. You don't need antidepressants,

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Speaker 3: We don't need infrastructure for our healthcare or mental health care.

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Speaker 3: You just need a life coach. You need someone who's

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Speaker 3: calling themselves a life coach, and then you could also

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Speaker 3: be a life coach.

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Speaker 1: If you want. The multi level marketing comes back in it.

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Speaker 1: You can't quite keep that idea down, so you just

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Speaker 1: need a life coach. That brings us to season three,

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Speaker 1: the current season of the Dream. Why did that strike

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Speaker 1: you as as a good topic, because I think it's

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Speaker 1: perhaps less well known than the wellness industry you goop,

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Speaker 1: but it's less well known than pyramid schemes, So why

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Speaker 1: life coaching.

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Speaker 3: It is so embedded in both of those worlds that

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Speaker 3: it felt like the most natural next thing to explore.

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Speaker 3: With multi level marketing, a lot of the companies offer

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Speaker 3: coaching services as another enticement for staying in the scheme.

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Speaker 3: After you spent a few years and realize you're not

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Speaker 3: going to make any money.

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Speaker 1: You just need to pay for a coach exactly.

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Speaker 3: And usually that person works for the multi level marketing company.

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Speaker 3: And we actually speak to someone who started out in

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Speaker 3: multi level marketing and it was a wellness brand, and

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Speaker 3: she then got sucked into a coaching cult because I

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Speaker 3: think what coaching.

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Speaker 6: Does is it really.

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Speaker 3: Drills down on the idea that all success and failure

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Speaker 3: is upon the individual. The multi level marketing company, it

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Speaker 3: really doesn't matter what their products are like, as long

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Speaker 3: as you're working as hard as you possibly can to

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Speaker 3: sell them. There's no fault within the company for your failure.

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Speaker 3: It's all about your attitude and your work ethic. And

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Speaker 3: with wellness products, it's not really about whether the product

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Speaker 3: it has any scientific efficacy or will actually cure your ailments,

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Speaker 3: but it's about what you believe, whether you are fully

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Speaker 3: invested and have the right attitude. So a lot of

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Speaker 3: what we looked at this season was this mindset junk.

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Speaker 3: I think it's drunk about, you know, success comes to

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Speaker 3: those with the right way of looking at things and

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Speaker 3: the right mindset. The hardest workers should reap the biggest rewards.

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Speaker 3: All that stuff that was just very curious to me.

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Speaker 1: It's very interesting because I mean, I guess what makes

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Speaker 1: it so seductive is in part that it's adjacent to

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Speaker 1: something perfectly reasonable.

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Speaker 6: That's right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So let's talk about the episode that you've picked

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Speaker 1: is about hard work. So why did you want to

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Speaker 1: share that with caution retail.

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Speaker 3: Listeners reporting this season about life coaches, A lot of

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Speaker 3: them are well intentioned and the results you can get

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Speaker 3: from them are great. But I just kept having this

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Speaker 3: feeling as we were reporting that there's got to be

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Speaker 3: some one that this doesn't work for, And in fact,

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Speaker 3: I felt like the kind of toxic positivity within the

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Speaker 3: coaching world. I don't know, there was something icky about it,

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Speaker 3: like encouraging this bootstrap mentality that we're talking about and

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Speaker 3: rugged individualism and you know, just think and grow rich,

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Speaker 3: think your way out of your station in life. That

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Speaker 3: can't work for everybody, because there are systemic issues that

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Speaker 3: keep certain populations in a struggle and no amount of

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Speaker 3: like individual effort will change those systems.

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Speaker 6: I was right.

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Speaker 3: Sadly, there happens to be many populations, mostly people of color,

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Speaker 3: mostly people who are poor, for whom this sort of

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Speaker 3: striving is not only unhelpful it doesn't work, but it

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Speaker 3: can be very detrimental to one's health and longevity. So

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Speaker 3: we found this professor, doctor Sherman James and another professor

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Speaker 3: Arlene Geronimus, who are in North Carolina and Michigan, respectively,

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Speaker 3: and they do research into populations where striving, or as

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Speaker 3: Arlene calls it, weathering, you know, really just working your

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Speaker 3: butt off and trying to improve your life can lead

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Speaker 3: to all kinds of health complications if you're in a

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Speaker 3: population where the entire system is already built to like

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Speaker 3: not let you succeed no matter how hard you're working.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I love the fact that they want to have

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Speaker 1: too many spoilers for the episode, but I love the

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Speaker 1: fact that the episode features its own caution retiale, which

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Speaker 1: is the story of John Henry the steel Worker. But

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Speaker 1: one of the researchers that you talk to has developed

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Speaker 1: a John Henry scale of whether people have tendencies to

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Speaker 1: just be absolutely determined and to work and to work

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Speaker 1: and to work. And we're told that, you know that

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Speaker 1: that kind of determination, that persistence, that grit there was

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Speaker 1: that book, wasn't that grit? That's yeah, that's the secret

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Speaker 1: to success. And well, doesn't necessarily work out like that,

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Speaker 1: as we as we find out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's not necessarily good for you to try

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Speaker 3: to beat the machine.

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Speaker 1: But why do people strive so hard when both the

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Speaker 1: evidence and kind of common sense says, you know, you

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Speaker 1: can push it too far? You can hurt yourself.

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Speaker 3: Well, in America, we're trained up from birth to believe that.

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Speaker 6: That's how it works.

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Speaker 3: It's a delusion, it's a mass delusion, but that we

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Speaker 3: live somewhere where the hardest workers, the people with the

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Speaker 3: most grit, as you say, the people who only get

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Speaker 3: six hours of sleep at night, you know, the most

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Speaker 3: industrious individual will somehow not only reap like unimaginable riches

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Speaker 3: in this life, but probably also get into heaven. So

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Speaker 3: and that's I mean, I'm talking like from kindergarten, you're

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Speaker 3: told that story. Yeah right, never mind the fact that

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Speaker 3: all the people that they bring up as examples of

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Speaker 3: folks who that's worked for are mostly dead white guys.

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Speaker 3: But it's a way for these big systems and giant

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Speaker 3: corporations to shirk the responsibility of taking care of each

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Speaker 3: other by saying, you know, if you just had the

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Speaker 3: right attitude and worked a little bit harder, you wouldn't

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Speaker 3: have anything to complain about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a way to break out of that vicious cycle.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, revolution, man, No, I don't know, that's a thing

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Speaker 3: that I think about all the time, Like, what am

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Speaker 3: I really saying?

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Speaker 1: We're just humble podcasters.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know. I've gotten some pushback from people saying, well,

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Speaker 3: you know, it's nice to criticize the system, but that

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Speaker 3: doesn't help me right now. And that's what I wish changed,

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Speaker 3: is like I don't really care about right now, Like

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Speaker 3: I'm forty five, I'm running out of time, Like nothing

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Speaker 3: really that amazing is going to happen in my life.

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Speaker 3: But I would hope that we change the system for

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Speaker 3: like my grandkids now. I hope that by the time

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Speaker 3: one hundred years from now, like they have different opportunities.

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Speaker 3: I get really sad every once in a while thinking

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Speaker 3: about like sexism, right like I was told as a

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Speaker 3: little girl in the seventies eighties that's going to get fixed,

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Speaker 3: and that I'm now at my age and I go, ah,

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Speaker 3: the pay gap is still real, man, you know, like

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Speaker 3: this is all still a problem. And I get really

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Speaker 3: sad thinking about my daughter because we didn't fix it

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Speaker 3: in time for her. She's ten years old.

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Speaker 1: Now, I'll give you personal absolution for not fixing capitalism

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Speaker 1: in a single podcast. I think it's okay to point

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Speaker 1: to the problem and to tell these vivid stories about

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Speaker 1: this problem.

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Speaker 2: Tim.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to keep trying, it's fun to be.

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Speaker 1: Mad about it, and it's an amazing, amazing story, amazing listen,

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Speaker 1: So so thank you so much for joining us, Jean Marie,

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Speaker 1: Thanks Tim, And before we listen to the latest episode

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Speaker 1: of The Dream, I should point out that people can

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Speaker 1: hear The Dream wherever they get their podcasts. It is

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Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries and Little Everywhere. Thanks again

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Speaker 1: for joining us and loyal listeners, you've been waiting here.

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Speaker 1: It is striving is bad for your health.

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Speaker 4: Pushkin.

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Speaker 3: Have you ever heard the Legend of John Henry? Before

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Speaker 3: I did the interview you're about to hear. The best

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Speaker 3: recollection I had of the story came from a Disney

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Speaker 3: short I saw like twenty years ago. In that cartoon

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Speaker 3: version for kids. It's a story about the ultimate can

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Speaker 3: do man, a man with supernatural grit and determination. His

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Speaker 3: story was first shared as a folk tale among African

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Speaker 3: Americans in the late eighteen hundreds, and then it became

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Speaker 3: a song performed by black folks and then white folks,

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Speaker 3: singers about the magnificence of the steel driving man that's

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Speaker 3: the human precursor to a jackhammer or pneumatic drill. For

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Speaker 3: over a century, It's been upheld as a story emblematic

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Speaker 3: of the American dream. Work hard enough and you shall overcome,

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Speaker 3: have the right mindset, and the rest will fall into place.

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Speaker 3: Except that's not what happens in the end of the

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Speaker 3: legend of John Henry. Not even close. John Henry's life

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Speaker 3: doesn't get better. No, the ending of the legend of

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Speaker 3: John Henry is totally perplexing, so much so that scholars

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Speaker 3: have argued about its meaning for almost one hundred years.

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Speaker 3: One of those scholars, a retired Southern Black professor, doctor

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Speaker 3: Sherman James, use the story to come up with a

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Speaker 3: hypothesis about why putting your mind to something and trying

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Speaker 3: your very very hardest isn't necessarily a good thing for

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Speaker 3: any of us, any of us, not just the person

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Speaker 3: driving the steal. Here's how doctor Sherman James tells the

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Speaker 3: story of John Henry.

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Speaker 5: According to this legend, sometime in the early eighteen seven,

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Speaker 5: John Henry, and uneducated African American, was working as part

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Speaker 5: of a work gang, probably a group of convict laborers.

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Speaker 5: And so one day John Henry, who was reputed to

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Speaker 5: be you know, the best steel driver the world I'd

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Speaker 5: ever known, was challenged by his work boss to compete

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Speaker 5: agangst a newly invented machine, mechanical steam drill, and he

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Speaker 5: rose to the challenge, arguing that a man was nothing

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Speaker 5: but a man, but a man was certainly better than

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Speaker 5: a machine. And so this epic battle man and against

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Speaker 5: machine ensued, and after a long, long confrontation with the machine,

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Speaker 5: John Henry won, but he dropped dead after his victory

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Speaker 5: from complete mental and physical exhaustion.

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Speaker 3: And what was that legend meant to teach us at

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Speaker 3: that or when it was created?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that's that's a great question. It's probably debatable as

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Speaker 5: to what the legend actually signifies. The earliest work on

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Speaker 5: the meaning of the legend was by an anthropologist by

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Speaker 5: the name of Guy Johnson, who actually went to the

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Speaker 5: area where this legendary contests suppose have taken place, near Talcott,

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Speaker 5: West Virginia, and so he interviewed a number of black

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Speaker 5: folks and he came away with the idea that John

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Speaker 5: Henry may not have actually been a real person, but

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Speaker 5: that really didn't matter. Here's what he wrote in his book,

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Speaker 5: John Henry Tracking Down a Negro Legend, first published in

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Speaker 5: nineteen twenty nine. The question of whether the John Henry

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Speaker 5: legend rests on a factual basis is after all, not

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Speaker 5: of much significance. No matter which way it is answered,

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Speaker 5: there remains the fact that the legend itself is a reality,

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Speaker 5: a living, functioning thing in the folk life of the

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Speaker 5: Negro So the legend had this large meaning in the

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Speaker 5: lives of working class African Americans who felt that it

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Speaker 5: sort of signified the triumph of the spirit of black people.

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Speaker 5: So it was standing up to power and refusing to

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Speaker 5: back down and winning even at a very high cost. Now,

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Speaker 5: in two thousand and six, historian Scott Nelson wrote this

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Speaker 5: really interesting book, Still Driving Man, The Untold Story of

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Speaker 5: John Henry, and it's a wonderful piece of historical research.

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Speaker 5: Scott Nelson concluded, after extensive archival research that John Henry

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Speaker 5: was probably a real person and not necessarily a a

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Speaker 5: freed slave. Maybe he was born in New Jersey and

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Speaker 5: he worked his way south shortly after the Civil War

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Speaker 5: looking for job opportunities, and he got caught up in

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Speaker 5: the Black Codes.

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Speaker 4: He but actually was accused.

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Speaker 5: Of petty larceny and was tried and convicted and thrown

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Speaker 5: into into jail a very long prison term and Wanda

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Speaker 5: working as part of a work gang on the Chesapeake

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Speaker 5: and Ohio Railroad and then was exposed to you know,

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Speaker 5: all of the toxic dusts that men who carved out

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Speaker 5: tunnels and mountains were exposed to, and and he probably

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Speaker 5: died you know, what we might call coal miners disease.

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Speaker 5: So that since then he was a you know, the

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Speaker 5: legendary John Henry was a was a victim of sort

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Speaker 5: of the first the first wave of mass incarceration of

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Speaker 5: black people. So Scott Mill soon concluded that the meaning

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Speaker 5: of the story for for everyday black folks, it was

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Speaker 5: like a cautionary tale, don't let this happen to you.

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Speaker 5: Run away as fast as you can, don't get caught up.

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Speaker 4: In this system. So we have these, i'm going to.

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Speaker 5: Say, competing versions of what the what the legend means.

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Speaker 5: For For me, I sort of lean more toward the former,

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Speaker 5: because I think it really taps more, it taps more,

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Speaker 5: more more deeply, more authentically into the into the spirit,

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Speaker 5: you know, of of Black Americans, to confront adversity, to

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Speaker 5: not give up on their dreams to succeed, you know,

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Speaker 5: against the odds. So it's more of a of a

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Speaker 5: fight if you will kind of response than a flight

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Speaker 5: kind of response. And then, of course I think that

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Speaker 5: there are both rewards and costs associated with engaging in

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Speaker 5: that kind of fight response.

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Speaker 3: So, with the story in the back of his mind,

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Speaker 3: doctor James headed off to college and became a professor

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Speaker 3: of epidemiology at UNC Chapel Hill. He studied diseases and

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Speaker 3: their causes, and he decided to look at the problem

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Speaker 3: of high blood pressure in black men in eastern North Carolina.

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Speaker 3: He said he chose this population because they were unlikely

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Speaker 3: to regularly go to the doctor and very likely to

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Speaker 3: die of heart attack and stroke, the end result of

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Speaker 3: a life with high blood pressure or hypertension.

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Speaker 5: And so a physician colleague of mine gave me the

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Speaker 5: names of six of his Blackmaile patients whom I could interview.

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Speaker 5: So I drove about fifty five miles north of Caaprio

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Speaker 5: to a farm in Aliments County to speak to a

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Speaker 5: man by the name of mister John Martin. And he

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Speaker 5: was retired. He was seventy one years of age at

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Speaker 5: the time. He was waiting for me in his backyard.

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Speaker 5: It was mid July, very hot, so I welcomed me

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Speaker 5: warmly inviting me to sit next to him and chair

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Speaker 5: on the big tree, and we just started talking and

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Speaker 5: he began to tell me his life story. It was

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Speaker 5: a phenomenal story. Going into a sharecropper family in nineteen

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Speaker 5: oh seven. His father was of course uneducated and could

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Speaker 5: never get out of debt because the sharecropper system was

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Speaker 5: designed to keep particularly black sharecroppers perpetually in debt. And

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Speaker 5: so when John Martin, mister John Martin was oh, probably

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Speaker 5: an early lesson, and he saw how his father just

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Speaker 5: fretted and hardy worked and he could just never get ahead,

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Speaker 5: he vowed that that would not be his fate under

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Speaker 5: new circumstances, would he he be caught up in that

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Speaker 5: kind of explotative system. So some years later, when he

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Speaker 5: became a young man, got married, and he was a

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Speaker 5: sharecropper himself because he had the jop out of school

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Speaker 5: in the second grade in order to help out on

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Speaker 5: the farm. His wife's brother was a landowner, an independent landowner,

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Speaker 5: and his wife also came from a family that owned

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Speaker 5: their own land, and so both of them, his wife

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Speaker 5: and his brother in law, prevailed upon him to take

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Speaker 5: the risk and go to the bank and get alone

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Speaker 5: and buy his own property. So with some considerable reluctance,

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Speaker 5: he did and he got a mortgage, a forty year

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Speaker 5: mortgage to purchase seventy five acres of fertile North Carolina farmland.

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Speaker 5: And he always had this sort of deep sense of

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Speaker 5: vulnerability to you know, powerful forces, because because he saw

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Speaker 5: what had happened to his father, and by working literally

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Speaker 5: night and day for six days a week, he with

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Speaker 5: a lot of help from his wife, managed to pay

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Speaker 5: it off in five years, a huge accomplishment. And so

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Speaker 5: then he turned to me and he said, I think

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Speaker 5: that's the reason why my legs a whole out of whack.

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Speaker 5: I pushed myself too hard in the fields. Now I

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Speaker 5: knew that he had high blood pressure, and he had

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Speaker 5: two keynes that were leaning against the chair in which

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Speaker 5: he was sitting, so he was suffering from a very

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Speaker 5: severe case of ostio arthritis. And in the course of

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Speaker 5: telling me about his life story, he also told me

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Speaker 5: that in his mid fifties or so, he had to

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Speaker 5: go to the hospital and have forty percent of his

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Speaker 5: stomach removed because he had a very serious case a

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Speaker 5: peptic ulcers.

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Speaker 6: Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, So he had these three major diseases that had

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Speaker 5: a huge stress component.

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Speaker 6: Stress component meaning these diseases that can be caused or

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Speaker 6: triggered by stress.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, the stress plays a role. So he'd been talking

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Speaker 5: for maybe a couple of hours, and his wife came

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Speaker 5: to the came to the door and she uh said,

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Speaker 5: John Henry, it's time for lunch, and uh and I

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Speaker 5: bring your guests with you. So I looked at him

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Speaker 5: and I said, your name is John Henry, and he said, yeah,

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Speaker 5: John Henry Martin. And I thought, just like the legendary

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Speaker 5: John Henry, went up against the machine, and in the

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Speaker 5: case of John y Ney Martin, the machine was the

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Speaker 5: sharecropper system.

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Speaker 7: Which he beat.

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Speaker 5: He won his struggle against the machine, the economic machine

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Speaker 5: that was the sharecropper system, but.

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Speaker 4: He paid a price.

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Speaker 5: I began to think, well, maybe there's something here, you know,

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Speaker 5: maybe there's something here because his story reminded me. Johnny

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Speaker 5: Martin's story reminded me a lot of the story of

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Speaker 5: my parents, the story of my grandparents. My grandfathers on

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Speaker 5: both my mother's side and my father's side were share robbers.

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Speaker 5: So I could identify with what John Hind Martin was

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Speaker 5: telling me, and I thought, his story is.

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Speaker 4: Not just his story.

378
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Speaker 5: This is really the story of black people, black people

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Speaker 5: in America having to go up against these very powerful

380
00:22:55,810 --> 00:23:02,970
Speaker 5: political and economic forces, these systems, these institutions that are

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00:23:03,090 --> 00:23:07,850
Speaker 5: in place to keep black people subjugated and forcing them

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00:23:08,450 --> 00:23:11,530
Speaker 5: to have to worry extremely hard in order to make

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00:23:11,650 --> 00:23:15,810
Speaker 5: ends meet and in order to try to move ahead.

384
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Speaker 5: So that really led them to the John Henderson hypothesis

385
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Speaker 5: that maybe that's the explanation of why we see so

386
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Speaker 5: much high blood pressure and strokes and heart attacks that

387
00:23:28,050 --> 00:23:33,490
Speaker 5: affect African Americans, particularly working class African Americans, fairly early

388
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Speaker 5: in adult life. And then, of course the challenge became,

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Speaker 5: how do I test this? And so I came up

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Speaker 5: with twelve questions that constitute the John Henderson scale for

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Speaker 5: active coping or high effort coping. And I can give you,

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00:24:02,770 --> 00:24:06,410
Speaker 5: if you wish, a couple of sample questions. Yes, So

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00:24:07,170 --> 00:24:10,130
Speaker 5: here's the first question. When things don't go the way

394
00:24:10,130 --> 00:24:13,810
Speaker 5: I want them to, that just makes me work even harder. Now,

395
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Speaker 5: the response options are strongly agree, somewhat agree, don't know,

396
00:24:19,810 --> 00:24:25,770
Speaker 5: somewhat disagree, strongly disagree. So here's the second question. Once

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Speaker 5: I make up my mind to do something, I stay

398
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Speaker 5: with it until the job is completely done, so you know,

399
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Speaker 5: the remaining questions continue to work. This theme of tenacity, persistence,

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Speaker 5: not giving up. So that's the John Henderson scale.

401
00:24:44,330 --> 00:24:47,570
Speaker 3: And guess what his hunch was right. He found a

402
00:24:47,690 --> 00:24:51,290
Speaker 3: very strong correlation between scoring high on the John Henryism

403
00:24:51,330 --> 00:24:55,650
Speaker 3: scale and having hypertension and all of its attendant problems

404
00:24:55,690 --> 00:24:59,210
Speaker 3: like stroke and heart attack. The more these men strived

405
00:24:59,210 --> 00:25:02,770
Speaker 3: for excellence, the sicker they became and the shorter they lived.

406
00:25:03,610 --> 00:25:06,890
Speaker 3: And contrary to what doctor James and his colleagues speculated,

407
00:25:07,330 --> 00:25:09,090
Speaker 3: the link was there even for those who had are

408
00:25:09,090 --> 00:25:12,730
Speaker 3: already moved up the socioeconomic lauder who would achieve success

409
00:25:12,730 --> 00:25:15,410
Speaker 3: in stability and we're aiming to achieve even more as

410
00:25:15,450 --> 00:25:17,530
Speaker 3: we all do this.

411
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Speaker 5: This was very surprising to us. I can't emphasize that enough.

412
00:25:21,010 --> 00:25:24,210
Speaker 5: So this is the late nineteen eighties when at the

413
00:25:24,330 --> 00:25:31,490
Speaker 5: time there had been very little epidemiological research on the

414
00:25:31,530 --> 00:25:34,250
Speaker 5: health of middle class black people, and we sort of

415
00:25:34,290 --> 00:25:36,770
Speaker 5: expected to see that, oh, they will be doing so

416
00:25:36,890 --> 00:25:40,650
Speaker 5: much better than they're working class counterparts. Right, we're talking

417
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Speaker 5: about the you know, post civil rights movement, you know,

418
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Speaker 5: you know, folks who came of age in the nineteen sixties,

419
00:25:47,130 --> 00:25:51,290
Speaker 5: who benefited from the nineteen sixty four Civil Rights Act,

420
00:25:51,410 --> 00:25:54,850
Speaker 5: nineteen sixty five, the civil rights legislation, and now they

421
00:25:54,850 --> 00:26:00,010
Speaker 5: were moving into these white spaces from which you know,

422
00:26:00,050 --> 00:26:03,250
Speaker 5: black folks had for the most part been excluded. There

423
00:26:03,290 --> 00:26:07,650
Speaker 5: may be a lot of physiological wear and tear that attends,

424
00:26:08,170 --> 00:26:14,810
Speaker 5: you know, growing up against taking on these intrinsic shape

425
00:26:14,930 --> 00:26:22,210
Speaker 5: shifting institutional constraints against upward social mobility.

426
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Speaker 6: That's wild. I mean, I understand it, I understand it.

427
00:26:26,930 --> 00:26:31,850
Speaker 5: But yeah, I mean obviously very disturbing, right, a very

428
00:26:31,890 --> 00:26:32,890
Speaker 5: disturbing finding.

429
00:26:33,850 --> 00:26:38,050
Speaker 4: So what the data are telling us?

430
00:26:38,130 --> 00:26:40,210
Speaker 5: What these data are telling us, And again I want

431
00:26:40,210 --> 00:26:43,410
Speaker 5: to emphasize that this is not just one study, but

432
00:26:43,450 --> 00:26:48,330
Speaker 5: there are multiple studies that have shown this effect. What

433
00:26:48,490 --> 00:26:54,490
Speaker 5: this is telling us is that successful upward mobility in

434
00:26:54,570 --> 00:26:59,370
Speaker 5: America for people of color, not just Black Americans, but

435
00:26:59,410 --> 00:27:03,770
Speaker 5: for people of color comes with the price. Just like

436
00:27:03,970 --> 00:27:07,970
Speaker 5: we saw in the story of John Henry Martin. He

437
00:27:08,050 --> 00:27:12,090
Speaker 5: achieved there was up with social mobility. He became a landowner,

438
00:27:12,370 --> 00:27:17,930
Speaker 5: he became an independent farmer. He had some wealth, but

439
00:27:18,090 --> 00:27:18,850
Speaker 5: he paid a price.

440
00:27:21,810 --> 00:27:24,890
Speaker 3: I kept wondering how doctor James's findings extended to women.

441
00:27:25,650 --> 00:27:27,810
Speaker 3: At the end of one popular version of the John

442
00:27:27,850 --> 00:27:31,010
Speaker 3: Henry song, the story goes on to talk about his widow,

443
00:27:31,370 --> 00:27:34,410
Speaker 3: Polly Anne, who just picked up John Henry's hammer and

444
00:27:34,490 --> 00:27:37,610
Speaker 3: went right on driving steel in his place. So I

445
00:27:37,650 --> 00:27:40,170
Speaker 3: spoke to a professor at the University of Michigan's School

446
00:27:40,210 --> 00:27:42,530
Speaker 3: of Public Health, doctor Arlene Geronimus.

447
00:27:44,650 --> 00:27:47,410
Speaker 2: My area of study is health inequity.

448
00:27:48,250 --> 00:27:50,650
Speaker 3: Okay, tell me more about that. I think that's something

449
00:27:50,730 --> 00:27:52,210
Speaker 3: we all want to know a lot about right.

450
00:27:52,130 --> 00:27:56,690
Speaker 2: Now, which is interesting to me because thirty years ago

451
00:27:56,930 --> 00:27:58,330
Speaker 2: people weren't that interested.

452
00:27:58,450 --> 00:28:02,930
Speaker 3: But doctor Geronymus began her research into health inequity back

453
00:28:02,930 --> 00:28:06,090
Speaker 3: in the seventies in a school for pregnant teen moms.

454
00:28:06,690 --> 00:28:08,970
Speaker 3: She had a hunch about teen pregnancy and the way

455
00:28:09,010 --> 00:28:11,770
Speaker 3: we thought about it, that it wasn't the very worst

456
00:28:11,770 --> 00:28:14,490
Speaker 3: thing to ever happen to someone, and it wasn't nearly

457
00:28:14,490 --> 00:28:18,370
Speaker 3: as negatively impactful on people's lives as other larger forces

458
00:28:18,370 --> 00:28:22,210
Speaker 3: in society. It wasn't the root of all evil. But

459
00:28:22,850 --> 00:28:25,330
Speaker 3: in observing the poorer moms or the moms of color,

460
00:28:25,490 --> 00:28:28,210
Speaker 3: she did notice that they often had health problems that

461
00:28:28,370 --> 00:28:31,730
Speaker 3: usually don't appear until much later In life problems that

462
00:28:31,730 --> 00:28:33,530
Speaker 3: had nothing to do with being pregnant.

463
00:28:34,370 --> 00:28:35,130
Speaker 6: What was going on?

464
00:28:36,490 --> 00:28:41,530
Speaker 2: Well, I came to this theory I now pursued for

465
00:28:41,610 --> 00:28:46,330
Speaker 2: all these decades, which I called weathering, which was the

466
00:28:46,370 --> 00:28:50,570
Speaker 2: idea that if you're part of a denigrated group, you're

467
00:28:50,610 --> 00:28:54,970
Speaker 2: both exposed to more assaults that wear down your health

468
00:28:55,770 --> 00:29:00,130
Speaker 2: at earlier ages, and so that's weathering, as in a

469
00:29:00,250 --> 00:29:06,010
Speaker 2: rock being, you know, weathered by wind and rain over centuries.

470
00:29:07,890 --> 00:29:09,930
Speaker 2: But you're also in this you know, this is what

471
00:29:10,010 --> 00:29:13,730
Speaker 2: I had seen initially in the School for Pregnant Moms.

472
00:29:14,490 --> 00:29:17,250
Speaker 2: You're also weathering in the sense that you're having to

473
00:29:17,450 --> 00:29:19,930
Speaker 2: and this actually relates a lot to some of the

474
00:29:19,930 --> 00:29:25,410
Speaker 2: concepts in Sherman James's work. Having to expend so much

475
00:29:25,570 --> 00:29:29,050
Speaker 2: effort and coping with all the things you're exposed to

476
00:29:29,090 --> 00:29:32,610
Speaker 2: because you're still trying to withstand the storm. You're trying

477
00:29:32,650 --> 00:29:35,290
Speaker 2: to survive it, you're trying to even overcome it or

478
00:29:35,370 --> 00:29:38,930
Speaker 2: help overcome it for the next generation. If we're talking

479
00:29:38,970 --> 00:29:44,770
Speaker 2: about racism and poverty that keeps you chronically stressed even

480
00:29:44,810 --> 00:29:47,770
Speaker 2: while you're sleeping. It's not something you can just say,

481
00:29:47,890 --> 00:29:50,930
Speaker 2: let me meditate or let me try to reframe the situation.

482
00:29:51,410 --> 00:29:54,010
Speaker 2: Let me smile and put on my high heels and

483
00:29:54,130 --> 00:29:59,410
Speaker 2: pretty dress. Feel positive. These are things that are happening

484
00:29:59,570 --> 00:30:04,450
Speaker 2: day in and day out, and they're they're happening to you,

485
00:30:04,650 --> 00:30:07,530
Speaker 2: and they're happening as you. As I said, work very

486
00:30:07,690 --> 00:30:13,450
Speaker 2: positively and assert lee in proactively to survive them, withstand them.

487
00:30:14,010 --> 00:30:17,410
Speaker 2: And I've come to believe, you know, some of that

488
00:30:17,610 --> 00:30:21,490
Speaker 2: is just objective things in your environment. You know, meditating

489
00:30:21,570 --> 00:30:26,410
Speaker 2: isn't going to help you deal with environmental toxicity. Meditating

490
00:30:26,450 --> 00:30:28,090
Speaker 2: isn't going to help you deal with the fact in

491
00:30:28,170 --> 00:30:31,290
Speaker 2: order to feed your children, given that you know, the

492
00:30:31,410 --> 00:30:34,690
Speaker 2: value of real wages, which was never very high in

493
00:30:34,730 --> 00:30:38,930
Speaker 2: the lower runs, has gotten even less, means you have

494
00:30:39,010 --> 00:30:41,530
Speaker 2: to do two or three jobs, or take night shift

495
00:30:41,610 --> 00:30:45,250
Speaker 2: jobs that imping on your sleep, or that you don't

496
00:30:45,290 --> 00:30:49,210
Speaker 2: have a car, so you're relying on really bad public

497
00:30:49,250 --> 00:30:55,010
Speaker 2: transportation to try and get to your various jobs. You're

498
00:30:55,050 --> 00:30:57,970
Speaker 2: also juggling how do you get to your kids to school,

499
00:30:58,010 --> 00:31:01,010
Speaker 2: how do you have them taking care of when they're home.

500
00:31:01,290 --> 00:31:03,570
Speaker 2: At the same time, you don't have any control over

501
00:31:04,370 --> 00:31:09,330
Speaker 2: the hours you work, so there's just this endless coping

502
00:31:09,490 --> 00:31:12,490
Speaker 2: that is kind of psycho I might call it psychosocial.

503
00:31:12,850 --> 00:31:15,090
Speaker 2: And what I've come to understand and what I think

504
00:31:15,130 --> 00:31:18,490
Speaker 2: goes beyond a lot of how people think about stress.

505
00:31:18,530 --> 00:31:21,330
Speaker 2: Besides it, it's not just this individual thing you can

506
00:31:21,410 --> 00:31:27,450
Speaker 2: manage or control. Is that a very big part of

507
00:31:27,490 --> 00:31:30,690
Speaker 2: what sets off all those stress reactions in your body?

508
00:31:30,770 --> 00:31:35,290
Speaker 2: The court is all and all of that is that

509
00:31:35,490 --> 00:31:40,370
Speaker 2: we all as human beings, need to have a sense

510
00:31:40,370 --> 00:31:43,690
Speaker 2: of how safe we are in any particular situation. And

511
00:31:43,810 --> 00:31:47,250
Speaker 2: safe can mean literally life or death safe or it

512
00:31:47,290 --> 00:31:51,210
Speaker 2: can mean are we somewhere where we can be authentic,

513
00:31:51,290 --> 00:31:54,290
Speaker 2: where we will be treated fairly, So it can mean

514
00:31:54,330 --> 00:31:57,450
Speaker 2: things short of that life or death, or could mean

515
00:31:58,330 --> 00:32:00,370
Speaker 2: you know, the interception of them, such as if you're

516
00:32:00,410 --> 00:32:04,690
Speaker 2: a black person stopped by a police officer, that's both

517
00:32:04,770 --> 00:32:08,810
Speaker 2: something that you worry is unsafe and it could be

518
00:32:08,850 --> 00:32:15,210
Speaker 2: life threatening also. So we set off these stress reactions

519
00:32:15,250 --> 00:32:18,890
Speaker 2: that people kind of vernacularly know as fight or flight.

520
00:32:19,330 --> 00:32:22,450
Speaker 2: But if you think about what happens when you set

521
00:32:22,490 --> 00:32:25,970
Speaker 2: them off, you start to see how your your health

522
00:32:26,050 --> 00:32:33,730
Speaker 2: wears down early along the very things that cause the

523
00:32:33,810 --> 00:32:36,770
Speaker 2: health and equities by race and class in the United States.

524
00:32:37,290 --> 00:32:39,610
Speaker 3: I think when you were talking about the like you know,

525
00:32:39,650 --> 00:32:42,130
Speaker 3: having so many jobs and not sleeping and taking public

526
00:32:42,130 --> 00:32:42,930
Speaker 3: transportation and.

527
00:32:42,930 --> 00:32:43,290
Speaker 2: All of that.

528
00:32:43,370 --> 00:32:49,290
Speaker 3: I feel like for a large part of our society

529
00:32:49,290 --> 00:32:53,690
Speaker 3: in America anyway, those are the actually the answers, Those

530
00:32:53,730 --> 00:32:58,690
Speaker 3: are the solves, right, Like get another work harder, if

531
00:32:58,690 --> 00:33:00,850
Speaker 3: you don't have a car, take the bus. It's like,

532
00:33:01,370 --> 00:33:04,130
Speaker 3: just change your attitude, you know, be more positive, like

533
00:33:04,370 --> 00:33:08,170
Speaker 3: be optimistic and have a better mindset.

534
00:33:08,570 --> 00:33:12,090
Speaker 2: What I've seen is in the very same populations who weather,

535
00:33:12,370 --> 00:33:15,970
Speaker 2: I've never seen more resilient people who keep going on

536
00:33:16,090 --> 00:33:19,730
Speaker 2: in the face of adversity, and who can be very optimistic,

537
00:33:20,290 --> 00:33:24,970
Speaker 2: and who have all these sayings and support from you know,

538
00:33:25,290 --> 00:33:28,890
Speaker 2: the people there in networks with their loved ones about

539
00:33:29,210 --> 00:33:32,250
Speaker 2: you know, take one foot forward or you know, keep

540
00:33:32,290 --> 00:33:37,930
Speaker 2: on keeping on. But given that I've seen how optimistic

541
00:33:39,290 --> 00:33:42,130
Speaker 2: and what a good attitude by you know, by some

542
00:33:42,210 --> 00:33:48,730
Speaker 2: measures people in these communities have, and they still get

543
00:33:48,810 --> 00:33:51,330
Speaker 2: so sick, it certainly doesn't seem to me that that's

544
00:33:51,410 --> 00:33:55,410
Speaker 2: much good evidence that that being optimistic or you know,

545
00:33:55,570 --> 00:33:59,210
Speaker 2: having grit, or being resilient or making the best of

546
00:33:59,250 --> 00:34:02,930
Speaker 2: bad situations is what's going to make you healthy. It

547
00:34:03,010 --> 00:34:06,610
Speaker 2: certainly hasn't worked in these circumstances, you know, you'd have

548
00:34:07,170 --> 00:34:11,330
Speaker 2: people would have to they'd have to accept how inequitably

549
00:34:11,410 --> 00:34:15,130
Speaker 2: structured our world is, and that they didn't really earn

550
00:34:15,210 --> 00:34:20,370
Speaker 2: their right to have vacations and time off for yoga

551
00:34:20,410 --> 00:34:23,810
Speaker 2: and me time. We're going to get your me time

552
00:34:23,850 --> 00:34:28,490
Speaker 2: when you're raising kids and working night shifts and then

553
00:34:28,530 --> 00:34:31,570
Speaker 2: working another shift in the day, and then trying to

554
00:34:31,570 --> 00:34:33,890
Speaker 2: figure out do you pay your electricity bill or not?

555
00:34:34,010 --> 00:34:36,650
Speaker 2: Do you fight with your landlord that he hasn't fixed

556
00:34:36,690 --> 00:34:39,970
Speaker 2: the heater in your building, And you have to make

557
00:34:40,010 --> 00:34:44,770
Speaker 2: these decisions all the time. And then you're also being

558
00:34:44,810 --> 00:34:48,570
Speaker 2: told you don't work hard, you don't have future orientation,

559
00:34:49,330 --> 00:34:52,090
Speaker 2: you're not a good person. You had your children too young,

560
00:34:52,130 --> 00:34:56,170
Speaker 2: which just proves you aren't a good person. If you

561
00:34:56,370 --> 00:35:00,490
Speaker 2: just really you pulled yourself up by your bootsteps, you

562
00:35:00,650 --> 00:35:07,970
Speaker 2: get all the same things we got. Those are stressful

563
00:35:08,010 --> 00:35:13,210
Speaker 2: things to work against too.

564
00:35:18,130 --> 00:35:20,130
Speaker 3: I wish I could say that these findings shocked me,

565
00:35:20,770 --> 00:35:23,090
Speaker 3: but instead they affirmed a feeling I've been having about

566
00:35:23,130 --> 00:35:26,770
Speaker 3: the self improvement woo woo coachy world. There's just something

567
00:35:26,810 --> 00:35:29,770
Speaker 3: really privileged and tone deaf about the idea of picking

568
00:35:29,770 --> 00:35:33,130
Speaker 3: yourself up by your bootstraps. An idea we've heaped upon

569
00:35:33,170 --> 00:35:36,210
Speaker 3: people of color in this country, I think, to absolve

570
00:35:36,250 --> 00:35:38,490
Speaker 3: white people of having to do any hard work to

571
00:35:38,530 --> 00:35:41,930
Speaker 3: help their fellow man. An idea that we've gifted white people,

572
00:35:42,490 --> 00:35:46,650
Speaker 3: convincing us we've earned everything we have. An idea designed

573
00:35:46,730 --> 00:35:49,850
Speaker 3: to keep those in power and power while blaming people

574
00:35:49,930 --> 00:35:55,410
Speaker 3: we oppress for their powerlessness. The mindset stuff from Napoleon Hill,

575
00:35:55,850 --> 00:35:59,890
Speaker 3: the individual responsibility of the unemployed folks in Texas, Ray

576
00:35:59,970 --> 00:36:02,770
Speaker 3: Higden's insistence that you just need to defy your negative

577
00:36:02,770 --> 00:36:06,970
Speaker 3: feelings to overcome adversity. These are all just distractions from

578
00:36:06,970 --> 00:36:09,490
Speaker 3: the larger forces that make it harder for so many

579
00:36:09,530 --> 00:36:12,890
Speaker 3: people to rise in this country, things like racism and

580
00:36:12,930 --> 00:36:16,330
Speaker 3: sexism and all the isms I'm constantly banging on about.

581
00:36:17,210 --> 00:36:20,890
Speaker 3: Despite what these pitchmen might say, you cannot think yourself

582
00:36:20,930 --> 00:36:22,810
Speaker 3: out of being the only woman in a business meeting.

583
00:36:22,810 --> 00:36:23,650
Speaker 6: Believe me, I've tried.

584
00:36:24,530 --> 00:36:26,850
Speaker 3: There are people groups of people for whom this think

585
00:36:26,930 --> 00:36:30,490
Speaker 3: and grow rich stuff is just plainly detrimental, and that

586
00:36:30,570 --> 00:36:34,690
Speaker 3: it's bad for society on the whole when entire enormous

587
00:36:34,730 --> 00:36:37,050
Speaker 3: communities suffer in an effort to not suffer.

588
00:36:37,570 --> 00:36:38,370
Speaker 6: We all suffer.

589
00:36:39,770 --> 00:36:42,010
Speaker 3: I want to put you in a room with Tony

590
00:36:42,090 --> 00:36:45,850
Speaker 3: Robbins while he's like screaming about how you know this

591
00:36:46,130 --> 00:36:50,650
Speaker 3: like rugged individualism and you know your mindset just needs

592
00:36:50,690 --> 00:36:51,970
Speaker 3: to overcome stuff.

593
00:36:52,010 --> 00:36:55,850
Speaker 5: And no, it's more complicated, it's more complicated. These motivational

594
00:36:55,930 --> 00:37:02,090
Speaker 5: speakers have figured something out, right, you know, how to

595
00:37:02,170 --> 00:37:08,730
Speaker 5: speak to the aspirations of people and how to connect

596
00:37:09,170 --> 00:37:14,970
Speaker 5: their stick with the American dream.

597
00:37:15,090 --> 00:37:16,170
Speaker 4: And and you.

598
00:37:16,130 --> 00:37:22,290
Speaker 5: Know, we Americans, you know how mind is conditioned right

599
00:37:22,650 --> 00:37:27,650
Speaker 5: to think about our country as a place where hard

600
00:37:27,770 --> 00:37:31,450
Speaker 5: work pays off. I mean we all of us have

601
00:37:31,610 --> 00:37:38,050
Speaker 5: internalized to some degree that notion, that aspiration. They have

602
00:37:38,130 --> 00:37:42,250
Speaker 5: been sold the American dream. A lot of us have

603
00:37:42,370 --> 00:37:45,410
Speaker 5: been sold the American dream. This is where I want

604
00:37:45,450 --> 00:37:47,610
Speaker 5: to give them some grace.

605
00:37:48,050 --> 00:37:48,970
Speaker 4: Let me put it that way.

606
00:37:49,530 --> 00:37:51,930
Speaker 5: What they don't know is the kind of thing that

607
00:37:52,490 --> 00:37:54,690
Speaker 5: you and I have been talking about. They don't They

608
00:37:54,730 --> 00:37:59,250
Speaker 5: really don't know the physiological costs associated with this.

609
00:37:59,330 --> 00:38:00,650
Speaker 4: Not the question for me.

610
00:38:00,730 --> 00:38:03,130
Speaker 5: The question becomes what would they say if they knew?

611
00:38:03,530 --> 00:38:06,570
Speaker 5: How would it change their their message? How would it

612
00:38:06,650 --> 00:38:10,050
Speaker 5: change what they say to people if they knew? But

613
00:38:10,130 --> 00:38:14,730
Speaker 5: they don't know, and of course it's a very powerful dream,

614
00:38:15,010 --> 00:38:18,570
Speaker 5: isn't it. I mean, I mean, what a wonderful idea

615
00:38:19,090 --> 00:38:21,810
Speaker 5: the American dream is. I mean, it's a powerful idea.

616
00:38:21,850 --> 00:38:24,010
Speaker 5: It attracts, it has attracted people.

617
00:38:23,810 --> 00:38:28,410
Speaker 4: From all over the world, you know, in search of opportunities.

618
00:38:29,410 --> 00:38:33,450
Speaker 5: To be freer than you know, they're able to be

619
00:38:33,530 --> 00:38:37,370
Speaker 5: free in their in their home countries too, to realize

620
00:38:37,410 --> 00:38:42,730
Speaker 5: their potential, to to be safe from harm, to be

621
00:38:42,810 --> 00:38:47,850
Speaker 5: successful economically, to gain wealth, to pass something on to

622
00:38:47,970 --> 00:38:52,570
Speaker 5: the next generation, to make it easier for the next

623
00:38:52,610 --> 00:38:56,610
Speaker 5: generation to live their lives, and have been the case

624
00:38:56,650 --> 00:38:59,610
Speaker 5: for them. There's nothing wrong with the dream, but it's

625
00:38:59,650 --> 00:39:05,050
Speaker 5: a dream. The problem is. The problem is, and you

626
00:39:05,090 --> 00:39:09,050
Speaker 5: mentioned this, you know earlier, the you know, the record individualist,

627
00:39:09,130 --> 00:39:14,970
Speaker 5: and that is such a a core attribute of American culture,

628
00:39:15,770 --> 00:39:22,130
Speaker 5: the notion that that America, that the United States is

629
00:39:22,170 --> 00:39:23,010
Speaker 5: a meritocracy.

630
00:39:23,130 --> 00:39:26,570
Speaker 6: I was just gonna say, yeah, the meritocracy thing, Yeah.

631
00:39:26,370 --> 00:39:29,570
Speaker 5: Yeah, that you deserve what you get and you get

632
00:39:29,570 --> 00:39:32,930
Speaker 5: what you deserve, right and and that yeah, in the

633
00:39:33,010 --> 00:39:36,410
Speaker 5: end is really up to you. So don't ask me,

634
00:39:36,970 --> 00:39:42,090
Speaker 5: you know, to pay higher taxes so that you know, opportunity.

635
00:39:42,170 --> 00:39:46,010
Speaker 5: So the opportunity structure can be expanded, and we can

636
00:39:46,090 --> 00:39:51,690
Speaker 5: have some social safety nets that will make your striving

637
00:39:51,850 --> 00:39:58,570
Speaker 5: to be successful less costly. And other countries have in

638
00:39:58,650 --> 00:40:02,850
Speaker 5: place much stronger social safety nets such that the kind

639
00:40:02,890 --> 00:40:08,290
Speaker 5: of mobility striving, the kind of desire you know, for

640
00:40:08,330 --> 00:40:12,410
Speaker 5: self realism, to realize your potential, you know, to live

641
00:40:12,450 --> 00:40:16,770
Speaker 5: a life that is meaningful and satisfying, does not come

642
00:40:16,810 --> 00:40:19,730
Speaker 5: with it in the pursuit of it. Of that kind

643
00:40:19,730 --> 00:40:23,210
Speaker 5: of life does not come with an unnecessary cost to

644
00:40:23,250 --> 00:40:26,130
Speaker 5: your health. And that is one of the things that

645
00:40:26,250 --> 00:40:33,170
Speaker 5: distinguishes our country from other rich countries in the world.

646
00:40:33,650 --> 00:40:38,290
Speaker 5: Right one could argue that that is the most distinguishing

647
00:40:38,930 --> 00:40:42,570
Speaker 5: factor that distinguishes the United States of America from our

648
00:40:42,610 --> 00:40:48,970
Speaker 5: peer countries elsewhere elsewhere in the world. It's very sobering,

649
00:40:49,850 --> 00:40:55,370
Speaker 5: but it's important to know that this phenomenon exists. And

650
00:40:55,450 --> 00:40:58,450
Speaker 5: now that we know it, and we have to keep

651
00:40:58,850 --> 00:41:00,890
Speaker 5: you know, I have to keep talking about it. We

652
00:41:00,970 --> 00:41:06,210
Speaker 5: have to engage in educating the public. Of course, there'll

653
00:41:06,210 --> 00:41:09,610
Speaker 5: be the skeptics, you know, but we have to we

654
00:41:09,690 --> 00:41:15,610
Speaker 5: have to do our best, certainly to educate policymakers and advocate,

655
00:41:16,330 --> 00:41:23,250
Speaker 5: you know, for social and economic policies that made upble mobility, striving,

656
00:41:23,890 --> 00:41:24,810
Speaker 5: and that's costly.

657
00:41:27,210 --> 00:41:29,250
Speaker 3: We're gonna leave you today with a version of John

658
00:41:29,290 --> 00:41:33,010
Speaker 3: Henry sung by the civil rights activist Harry Belafonte, who

659
00:41:33,050 --> 00:41:33,730
Speaker 3: died this year.

660
00:41:34,250 --> 00:41:38,570
Speaker 6: Enjoy John Henry.

661
00:41:38,690 --> 00:41:42,610
Speaker 7: He could hammer, he could whistle, he could sing.

662
00:41:43,610 --> 00:41:46,290
Speaker 8: Went to the mountain early in the morning, just to

663
00:41:46,370 --> 00:41:49,530
Speaker 8: hear his hammer, ring Lord Law, just to hear his

664
00:41:49,690 --> 00:41:53,490
Speaker 8: hammer ring, and just to hear his hammer, ring Lord

665
00:41:53,650 --> 00:41:57,370
Speaker 8: lawd just to hear his hammer ring. But John Henry

666
00:41:57,690 --> 00:42:01,170
Speaker 8: was a little baby sitting on us, that is me,

667
00:42:02,450 --> 00:42:03,010
Speaker 8: picked up.

668
00:42:02,970 --> 00:42:04,810
Speaker 7: A hammer and a little piece of steel.

669
00:42:04,890 --> 00:42:07,810
Speaker 9: Said, hammer be the death of me, Lord God, Yes,

670
00:42:07,930 --> 00:42:11,250
Speaker 9: hammill be the death. And his hand will be the

671
00:42:11,290 --> 00:42:14,250
Speaker 9: death of me, Lord Lord, Yes, hamm will be the death.

672
00:42:15,570 --> 00:42:19,530
Speaker 8: Well, John Harry's family needed money, said he didn't have

673
00:42:19,770 --> 00:42:22,770
Speaker 8: but a dime. If you wait till the rise of

674
00:42:22,850 --> 00:42:25,210
Speaker 8: sun goes down, I'll get it from the man in

675
00:42:25,250 --> 00:42:25,730
Speaker 8: the mind.

676
00:42:25,770 --> 00:42:28,770
Speaker 9: Lord Lord, I'll get it from the man in the mind.

677
00:42:29,250 --> 00:42:30,330
Speaker 9: I'll get it from the.

678
00:42:30,250 --> 00:42:32,770
Speaker 8: Man in the mind, Lord Lord, I'll get it from

679
00:42:32,810 --> 00:42:35,890
Speaker 8: the man in the mind. Well, the captain said to

680
00:42:35,970 --> 00:42:39,370
Speaker 8: John Henry, Don Harry, what can you do?

681
00:42:40,330 --> 00:42:42,730
Speaker 4: Hi cloister, check, I can lay a track.

682
00:42:42,810 --> 00:42:45,890
Speaker 9: I can pick and shovel To Lord God, I can

683
00:42:45,930 --> 00:42:49,810
Speaker 9: pick and shovel too. I can pick and shovel to

684
00:42:50,130 --> 00:42:52,690
Speaker 9: Lord a Lord, I can pick and shovel too.

685
00:42:53,490 --> 00:42:57,370
Speaker 8: Well, John Harry said to the captain, a man ain't

686
00:42:57,410 --> 00:43:01,650
Speaker 8: nothing but a man. But let your stevesre beat me down.

687
00:43:01,730 --> 00:43:04,490
Speaker 9: Well, I'll die with the hammer in my hand, Lord God,

688
00:43:04,530 --> 00:43:07,890
Speaker 9: I'll die with the hammer in my hand. I'll die

689
00:43:07,930 --> 00:43:10,130
Speaker 9: with the hammer in my hand. And Lord Lord, I'll

690
00:43:10,170 --> 00:43:11,970
Speaker 9: die with the hammer in my hand.

691
00:43:12,530 --> 00:43:15,970
Speaker 8: Well, the captain said to John Henry. Hell, lotta bring

692
00:43:16,050 --> 00:43:19,250
Speaker 8: me a steam drill round home, Bring me a steam

693
00:43:19,330 --> 00:43:20,690
Speaker 8: drill out on the job.

694
00:43:20,770 --> 00:43:24,210
Speaker 4: Go wha, that's steel on down? Lord, Lord, go wha

695
00:43:24,370 --> 00:43:25,530
Speaker 4: that's steel on down?

696
00:43:26,170 --> 00:43:28,170
Speaker 7: How go hoop that steel on down?

697
00:43:28,250 --> 00:43:30,970
Speaker 4: Lord? And Lordigo, hook that steelng down?

698
00:43:31,650 --> 00:43:35,290
Speaker 8: Well, John Henry said to his shaker, shake, go what

699
00:43:35,570 --> 00:43:36,330
Speaker 8: don't you sing?

700
00:43:37,050 --> 00:43:39,970
Speaker 7: Thrown fifteen pounds from my hips down?

701
00:43:40,290 --> 00:43:43,370
Speaker 9: Listen to the col steel ring, Lord, Lord, Yes, listen

702
00:43:43,450 --> 00:43:44,690
Speaker 9: to the cold steel ring.

703
00:43:45,290 --> 00:43:48,090
Speaker 4: Oh, listen to the col steel ring? Lord O Lord,

704
00:43:48,090 --> 00:43:50,130
Speaker 4: I won't you listen to the cold steel ring?

705
00:43:50,730 --> 00:43:54,170
Speaker 7: Well, the man who invented the steam drill hard. He

706
00:43:54,450 --> 00:43:55,690
Speaker 7: was mighty fine.

707
00:43:56,290 --> 00:43:59,970
Speaker 8: John Henry drove this fifteen feet and the steam drill

708
00:44:00,050 --> 00:44:03,850
Speaker 8: lonely made nine, Lord Lord, steam drill lonely made nine.

709
00:44:04,370 --> 00:44:06,210
Speaker 4: Yes, the steam drill lonely.

710
00:44:05,930 --> 00:44:09,090
Speaker 9: Made nine, Lord Lord, the steam drill lonely made nine.

711
00:44:09,770 --> 00:44:09,970
Speaker 7: Well.

712
00:44:10,090 --> 00:44:13,410
Speaker 8: The captain said to John Henry, how are you mountain

713
00:44:13,610 --> 00:44:14,370
Speaker 8: sinking in?

714
00:44:15,370 --> 00:44:16,930
Speaker 7: John Henry said to the.

715
00:44:16,970 --> 00:44:20,010
Speaker 9: Captain, O, mine, nothing but my hamm a sucking win,

716
00:44:20,170 --> 00:44:23,570
Speaker 9: Lord Lord, nothing but my hamm a sucking win. Hey,

717
00:44:23,730 --> 00:44:26,250
Speaker 9: nothing but my hamm a sucking win. Lord, and Laurie

718
00:44:26,290 --> 00:44:28,250
Speaker 9: ain't nothing but my hammer suck and win.

719
00:44:28,890 --> 00:44:32,410
Speaker 8: Well, John Hanry said to the captain, looky, y'all know

720
00:44:32,690 --> 00:44:34,330
Speaker 8: what I see.

721
00:44:34,770 --> 00:44:37,210
Speaker 7: Hold on, choke, you drill done broke.

722
00:44:37,290 --> 00:44:40,530
Speaker 4: And you can't drive steel like me? Lord Lord, can't

723
00:44:40,610 --> 00:44:45,330
Speaker 4: drive steal like me? Oh, you can't drive steel like me? No, No,

724
00:44:45,410 --> 00:44:47,210
Speaker 4: you can't drive steal like me.

725
00:44:48,010 --> 00:44:50,210
Speaker 7: Well, Joan Harry drove in to the mountain.

726
00:44:50,690 --> 00:44:50,850
Speaker 5: Yes.

727
00:44:51,010 --> 00:44:53,730
Speaker 3: The Dream is written, hosted, and executive produced by me

728
00:44:54,050 --> 00:44:57,250
Speaker 3: Jane Marie. Our producer is Mike Richter, with help from

729
00:44:57,330 --> 00:45:01,370
Speaker 3: Nancy Golumbiski and Joy Sandford. Our editor is Peter Clowney.

730
00:45:01,970 --> 00:45:04,130
Speaker 3: The Dream is a co production of Little Everywhere in

731
00:45:04,130 --> 00:45:05,210
Speaker 3: Pushkin Industries.

732
00:45:05,410 --> 00:45:07,370
Speaker 4: Miss hammerin and died well.

733
00:45:07,410 --> 00:45:10,530
Speaker 8: John Henry had a little one one hand the name

734
00:45:10,650 --> 00:45:11,850
Speaker 8: of Polly Anne.

735
00:45:12,650 --> 00:45:15,290
Speaker 7: She walked down the track, never looked back.

736
00:45:15,410 --> 00:45:19,570
Speaker 8: Polland Roasteel like a man, Lord Polly and Rose Steel

737
00:45:19,570 --> 00:45:20,330
Speaker 8: like a man.

738
00:45:20,810 --> 00:45:25,050
Speaker 9: Polly Anne Rosteel like a man, Lord Lord Polyandro.

739
00:45:24,450 --> 00:45:25,650
Speaker 4: Steel like a man.

740
00:45:26,170 --> 00:45:28,570
Speaker 8: By the people to turn Henry to the White House?

741
00:45:28,970 --> 00:45:34,450
Speaker 8: Have they buried him in the sand? Heavy locomotive cameroaring.

742
00:45:34,010 --> 00:45:37,090
Speaker 9: By says, there lost to you, driving man, Lord Lord,

743
00:45:37,290 --> 00:45:38,450
Speaker 9: is there lives a steel?

744
00:45:38,570 --> 00:45:42,250
Speaker 4: Driving man? Has there loves to you? Driving man? Who

745
00:45:42,290 --> 00:45:46,290
Speaker 4: he there loveses to You're driving man? Has there loves

746
00:45:46,450 --> 00:45:49,450
Speaker 4: to you? Driving man? Lord Lord? Is their lives to you?

747
00:45:49,570 --> 00:45:49,850
Speaker 4: Driving