1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,396 --> 00:00:24,556 Speaker 2: Lester Glick's diary, July twenty eighth, nineteen forty five. 3 00:00:28,556 --> 00:00:31,076 Speaker 3: This morning I looked in the mirror and hated what 4 00:00:31,156 --> 00:00:36,596 Speaker 3: I saw. My face is now emaciated, sad, and flecked 5 00:00:36,596 --> 00:00:38,116 Speaker 3: with black dots. 6 00:00:39,236 --> 00:00:41,476 Speaker 2: Lester Glick was one of the thirty six young men 7 00:00:41,636 --> 00:00:45,276 Speaker 2: who signed up for the Minnesota Starvation Experiment. Unlike so 8 00:00:45,356 --> 00:00:48,156 Speaker 2: many of his counterparts, Blick did not leave an oral 9 00:00:48,196 --> 00:00:52,116 Speaker 2: history of his experience at the Library of Congress. All 10 00:00:52,156 --> 00:00:56,876 Speaker 2: we have is what he wrote in his diary. This 11 00:00:57,116 --> 00:01:00,396 Speaker 2: entry is from late in the study, after months of hunger. 12 00:01:02,836 --> 00:01:07,476 Speaker 3: My nose is bony, my cheeks protrude, my lips are 13 00:01:07,516 --> 00:01:12,156 Speaker 3: big and flabby. My fluffy, wavy hair has become coarse 14 00:01:12,196 --> 00:01:15,836 Speaker 3: and straight. My comb is always laden with globs of 15 00:01:15,916 --> 00:01:19,196 Speaker 3: loose hair. I can count my ribs in the mirror, 16 00:01:19,556 --> 00:01:23,676 Speaker 3: and my collar bone sticks out as though dislocated. My 17 00:01:23,876 --> 00:01:26,516 Speaker 3: arm muscles have dwindled that I could reach around my 18 00:01:26,716 --> 00:01:29,596 Speaker 3: arm above the elbow with my thumb and third finger. 19 00:01:32,116 --> 00:01:37,436 Speaker 3: I am so weak I can scarcely walk. I am tired, discouraged. 20 00:01:38,796 --> 00:01:40,636 Speaker 3: My life has all been drained from me. 21 00:01:43,316 --> 00:01:46,716 Speaker 2: And here is what Lesterglick wrote on October nineteenth, the 22 00:01:46,836 --> 00:01:48,556 Speaker 2: second to last day of the experiment. 23 00:01:49,796 --> 00:01:52,556 Speaker 3: To day turned out to be the worst day of 24 00:01:52,596 --> 00:01:56,596 Speaker 3: my life. This evening, Doctor Taylor called me into his 25 00:01:56,676 --> 00:02:00,636 Speaker 3: office and told me I have developed a tuberculosis lesion 26 00:02:01,116 --> 00:02:04,516 Speaker 3: on the apex of my left lung. I am to 27 00:02:04,556 --> 00:02:08,276 Speaker 3: go home, enter a sanatorium, and begin a six month 28 00:02:08,356 --> 00:02:16,236 Speaker 3: rehabilitation program. I couldn't have received any worse news. My 29 00:02:16,316 --> 00:02:19,676 Speaker 3: tuberculosis came into sharp focus. However, as we gathered for 30 00:02:19,716 --> 00:02:23,916 Speaker 3: the last supper celebration, all of the subjects, in fear 31 00:02:23,996 --> 00:02:27,076 Speaker 3: of my dread disease, moved away from me and I 32 00:02:27,116 --> 00:02:30,156 Speaker 3: sat alone, completely isolated from the others. 33 00:02:38,556 --> 00:02:41,676 Speaker 2: My name is Malcolm Glowell. You're listening to Revisionist History, 34 00:02:41,876 --> 00:02:47,236 Speaker 2: my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This is the 35 00:02:47,276 --> 00:02:50,876 Speaker 2: final episode of our look at the Starvation Experiment run 36 00:02:50,876 --> 00:02:55,276 Speaker 2: by Ansel Keys during the Second World War. Today, I 37 00:02:55,316 --> 00:02:58,676 Speaker 2: want to tell a story of Lester Glick, the story 38 00:02:58,876 --> 00:03:02,116 Speaker 2: of what happened to him after the experiment and how 39 00:03:02,116 --> 00:03:04,396 Speaker 2: he made sense of all the suffering he had been through. 40 00:03:12,836 --> 00:03:14,276 Speaker 2: Just tell me a little bit about your father. 41 00:03:14,396 --> 00:03:17,156 Speaker 4: First of all, so I look very much like him. 42 00:03:17,756 --> 00:03:22,596 Speaker 4: He had dark, curly hair, he was about five five 43 00:03:22,756 --> 00:03:25,356 Speaker 4: I think maybe five six if we if he stood 44 00:03:25,356 --> 00:03:28,476 Speaker 4: on his tiptoes, maybe he was down to one hundred 45 00:03:28,476 --> 00:03:30,396 Speaker 4: and fourteen pounds at his lowest weight. 46 00:03:31,716 --> 00:03:34,356 Speaker 2: Lester Glick died in two thousand and three, but I 47 00:03:34,436 --> 00:03:36,876 Speaker 2: spoke with two of his children, that's. 48 00:03:36,796 --> 00:03:41,796 Speaker 4: His daughter Chris, and he was a very thin man 49 00:03:42,276 --> 00:03:46,436 Speaker 4: until he got out of the starvation experiment. I mean 50 00:03:46,476 --> 00:03:49,636 Speaker 4: before he went there, he was thin, but then he 51 00:03:49,716 --> 00:03:51,996 Speaker 4: had an eating disorder the rest of his life, so 52 00:03:52,316 --> 00:03:56,076 Speaker 4: he gained and lost hundreds of pounds throughout the rest 53 00:03:56,076 --> 00:03:58,716 Speaker 4: of his life. He was kind of roly poly as 54 00:03:58,756 --> 00:03:59,956 Speaker 4: how I remember him. 55 00:04:01,316 --> 00:04:04,716 Speaker 2: After I spoke to Chris, I called up Lester Glick's son, Byron. 56 00:04:05,636 --> 00:04:09,956 Speaker 2: How do you think the experience and being involved in 57 00:04:09,996 --> 00:04:17,796 Speaker 2: that experiment changed him completely? 58 00:04:17,836 --> 00:04:22,836 Speaker 5: And not at all. It's clear to me that Daddy's 59 00:04:22,876 --> 00:04:30,236 Speaker 5: relationship with food and with his body was utterly and 60 00:04:30,356 --> 00:04:37,436 Speaker 5: completely disordered and changed by the starvation experiment. In that regard, 61 00:04:37,556 --> 00:04:43,476 Speaker 5: he never got over the starvation experiment. And Dad talks 62 00:04:43,556 --> 00:04:46,316 Speaker 5: as he was talking about his struggles with his way 63 00:04:47,556 --> 00:04:54,916 Speaker 5: that he never this is just amazing to think about. 64 00:04:55,796 --> 00:04:59,636 Speaker 5: He never got over being hungry. He was always hungry 65 00:05:00,236 --> 00:05:02,556 Speaker 5: even when he had all the food he wanted. That 66 00:05:03,076 --> 00:05:10,036 Speaker 5: something had happened in his physiology that broke the connection 67 00:05:10,316 --> 00:05:15,116 Speaker 5: between his stomach and his brain and it never cured. 68 00:05:16,716 --> 00:05:19,476 Speaker 4: You know, I never saw my father cry, but I 69 00:05:19,516 --> 00:05:22,156 Speaker 4: saw him as close to tears when he would talk 70 00:05:22,156 --> 00:05:23,356 Speaker 4: about that experience. 71 00:05:25,236 --> 00:05:31,556 Speaker 6: It's making me cry. Like he would always keep candy 72 00:05:31,676 --> 00:05:34,836 Speaker 6: underneath his seat his the driver's seat in the car 73 00:05:34,916 --> 00:05:37,316 Speaker 6: because he always wanted to have food close to him 74 00:05:38,076 --> 00:05:43,996 Speaker 6: just in case he got hungry, and he described starvation 75 00:05:44,396 --> 00:05:47,676 Speaker 6: as the worst deprivation there is for humankind. 76 00:05:52,156 --> 00:05:57,876 Speaker 5: As a kid, sometimes I felt like he was detached. 77 00:05:58,956 --> 00:06:04,036 Speaker 5: Looking back on it, I think he was scared, and 78 00:06:04,396 --> 00:06:09,796 Speaker 5: he was scared because he had experienced things that most 79 00:06:09,796 --> 00:06:13,356 Speaker 5: people don't experience. I think my dad was scarred in 80 00:06:13,396 --> 00:06:16,676 Speaker 5: the same way you hear about veterans being scarred about 81 00:06:16,716 --> 00:06:22,596 Speaker 5: active war. That there's just some stuff you can't explain 82 00:06:22,676 --> 00:06:35,596 Speaker 5: and you can't control, and it's scary. And part of 83 00:06:35,636 --> 00:06:40,716 Speaker 5: me wishes that my dad had never had to experience that, 84 00:06:40,716 --> 00:06:43,116 Speaker 5: that he had had a sweeter life than he had, 85 00:06:43,676 --> 00:06:47,316 Speaker 5: and he had a pretty sweet life. He had a 86 00:06:47,356 --> 00:06:52,916 Speaker 5: good life. He would say he had a good life, 87 00:06:54,636 --> 00:07:00,836 Speaker 5: but He paid a price for what he believed, and 88 00:07:00,916 --> 00:07:06,436 Speaker 5: he kept paying that price his whole life. He was 89 00:07:06,476 --> 00:07:07,556 Speaker 5: an amazing man. 90 00:07:14,276 --> 00:07:16,876 Speaker 2: Byron and Chris both know what their father went through, 91 00:07:17,596 --> 00:07:20,196 Speaker 2: but they also know what he became as a result. 92 00:07:24,836 --> 00:07:28,116 Speaker 2: For as long as scientists have puzzled about human physiology, 93 00:07:28,556 --> 00:07:34,316 Speaker 2: they've wondered how the body responds to extended deprivation. When 94 00:07:34,316 --> 00:07:37,396 Speaker 2: you don't eat enough, you get weak. We all know that, 95 00:07:37,756 --> 00:07:41,716 Speaker 2: but beyond that, the details quickly get complicated, and those 96 00:07:41,796 --> 00:07:45,716 Speaker 2: critical details obsessed ansel Keys as he set out to 97 00:07:45,756 --> 00:07:50,316 Speaker 2: design the starvation experiment. In twenty twenty one, the journal 98 00:07:50,356 --> 00:07:53,916 Speaker 2: Obesity Reviews devoted an entire issue to the legacy of 99 00:07:53,916 --> 00:07:58,436 Speaker 2: Ansel Keys. The issue was organized by a physiologist at 100 00:07:58,436 --> 00:08:02,476 Speaker 2: the University of Freberg in Switzerland. His name is Abdul Dulux. 101 00:08:04,076 --> 00:08:06,756 Speaker 2: Give me an example of a question that is very 102 00:08:06,796 --> 00:08:08,316 Speaker 2: difficult to answer in your world. 103 00:08:09,556 --> 00:08:15,076 Speaker 7: Right from the beginning of nineteen hundred, from prisoners of wars, 104 00:08:15,116 --> 00:08:18,996 Speaker 7: from people being mild nourished and recovering that there was 105 00:08:19,036 --> 00:08:24,116 Speaker 7: a tendency for body fat to be recovered faster than 106 00:08:24,556 --> 00:08:27,756 Speaker 7: lean mass and muscle mass and so forth. And this 107 00:08:27,956 --> 00:08:31,116 Speaker 7: was quite a problem because when you think of you 108 00:08:31,156 --> 00:08:35,356 Speaker 7: are rehabilitating a patient who has that's a cancer or 109 00:08:35,476 --> 00:08:39,796 Speaker 7: infection or wherever that they lose weight because of the disease. 110 00:08:40,756 --> 00:08:44,076 Speaker 7: When you have to make them recover, you would prefer 111 00:08:44,116 --> 00:08:49,476 Speaker 7: them to recover tissue, organ, muscle, because that's where the 112 00:08:49,516 --> 00:08:54,356 Speaker 7: functionality is critical. Right, But they have problem to recover 113 00:08:55,356 --> 00:09:00,796 Speaker 7: muscle mass, muscle function, and relatively ease to recover fat, 114 00:09:02,076 --> 00:09:05,156 Speaker 7: and especially in the abdominal area, which is where the 115 00:09:05,156 --> 00:09:06,636 Speaker 7: bad fat is situated. 116 00:09:07,956 --> 00:09:10,756 Speaker 2: Muscle is a lot more important to regaining your health 117 00:09:10,796 --> 00:09:13,716 Speaker 2: than fat. But the body wants to recover fat first 118 00:09:13,996 --> 00:09:16,916 Speaker 2: after extended weight loss, and not just a little fat. 119 00:09:17,956 --> 00:09:22,796 Speaker 7: Not only they recover their fat faster, but they recover 120 00:09:22,956 --> 00:09:26,676 Speaker 7: more fat than the lost So what I mean, So 121 00:09:26,716 --> 00:09:29,996 Speaker 7: they recover more weight and it's mostly fat. 122 00:09:32,316 --> 00:09:34,756 Speaker 2: Why does the body do that? And is there something 123 00:09:34,796 --> 00:09:37,436 Speaker 2: that science could do to make the body switch tactics 124 00:09:37,796 --> 00:09:41,156 Speaker 2: and build lean muscle instead. You could imagine all the 125 00:09:41,196 --> 00:09:43,676 Speaker 2: areas where the answers to these questions would be useful. 126 00:09:44,436 --> 00:09:47,996 Speaker 2: Keys was focused on people suffering from malnutrition during the war, 127 00:09:48,556 --> 00:09:53,716 Speaker 2: concentration camp survivors, for example. That's one area Delu mentioned. 128 00:09:53,716 --> 00:09:59,236 Speaker 2: People recovering from serious illness, cancer patients after chemotherapy. That's another, 129 00:10:01,236 --> 00:10:04,076 Speaker 2: but as also people trying to recover from eating disorders, 130 00:10:04,396 --> 00:10:08,516 Speaker 2: people struggling with obesity, trying to maintain weight loss. Eighty 131 00:10:08,556 --> 00:10:11,036 Speaker 2: five to ninety percent of those who lose weight gain 132 00:10:11,076 --> 00:10:16,476 Speaker 2: it back. We need to understand that process. But there's 133 00:10:16,516 --> 00:10:19,636 Speaker 2: a problem. There's no easy way to do good experiments 134 00:10:19,716 --> 00:10:22,596 Speaker 2: on starvation and his aftermath. I mean, how would you 135 00:10:22,636 --> 00:10:25,596 Speaker 2: do it? You need to carefully control what people eat, 136 00:10:25,796 --> 00:10:28,196 Speaker 2: when they eat, how much they eat, and you have 137 00:10:28,236 --> 00:10:30,796 Speaker 2: to do that for months on end, because nothing useful 138 00:10:30,796 --> 00:10:33,396 Speaker 2: about diet can be learned from a few weeks of observations. 139 00:10:34,036 --> 00:10:37,516 Speaker 2: You can't run experiments with prisoners or people locked up 140 00:10:37,556 --> 00:10:43,076 Speaker 2: in a psychiatric hospital, because that would be unethical. You 141 00:10:43,116 --> 00:10:46,356 Speaker 2: need people who consent to be starved and have the 142 00:10:46,396 --> 00:10:49,796 Speaker 2: discipline to follow up on their commitment. But how do 143 00:10:49,836 --> 00:11:01,196 Speaker 2: you find people who fit that profile? A few years ago, 144 00:11:01,276 --> 00:11:05,316 Speaker 2: the National Institutes of Health organized something called the Calorie Study, 145 00:11:05,716 --> 00:11:08,796 Speaker 2: where one hundred and forty three adults signed up for 146 00:11:08,836 --> 00:11:12,476 Speaker 2: two years of stringent dieting. The goal was for them 147 00:11:12,476 --> 00:11:16,156 Speaker 2: to cut their caloric intake by twenty five percent, and 148 00:11:16,196 --> 00:11:21,116 Speaker 2: they received quote an intensive lifestyle intervention to foster adherents, 149 00:11:21,476 --> 00:11:27,036 Speaker 2: individual counseling, group sessions, consultants. How much caloric intake did 150 00:11:27,036 --> 00:11:29,916 Speaker 2: the volunteers end up cutting from their diets when all 151 00:11:29,996 --> 00:11:33,796 Speaker 2: was said and done, not twenty five percent, twelve percent. 152 00:11:34,676 --> 00:11:38,116 Speaker 2: After all that effort, the volunteers, on average only got 153 00:11:38,316 --> 00:11:42,796 Speaker 2: half way to their goal. And can you blame them? 154 00:11:43,116 --> 00:11:45,156 Speaker 2: It's just too much to ask someone to give up 155 00:11:45,396 --> 00:11:48,396 Speaker 2: a quarter of the calories they consume and to do 156 00:11:48,436 --> 00:11:52,196 Speaker 2: that every day for months on end. Except that is 157 00:11:52,596 --> 00:11:57,596 Speaker 2: if we're talking about anseel keys as guinea pigs. Abduldulou 158 00:11:57,716 --> 00:11:59,596 Speaker 2: told me that when he started working in the field 159 00:11:59,636 --> 00:12:03,316 Speaker 2: of obesity and metabolism almost thirty years ago, he quickly 160 00:12:03,356 --> 00:12:06,396 Speaker 2: realized that the best source of data on some problems, 161 00:12:06,756 --> 00:12:10,596 Speaker 2: and in some cases the only source of data, was 162 00:12:10,636 --> 00:12:16,956 Speaker 2: the Minnesota Starvation Experiment ANCIL. Keys kept meticulous, comprehensive records 163 00:12:17,116 --> 00:12:19,796 Speaker 2: on what six months of starvation looked like, and then 164 00:12:19,876 --> 00:12:23,156 Speaker 2: Keys collected another mountain of data that could help answer 165 00:12:23,236 --> 00:12:27,596 Speaker 2: questions about body fat once the volunteers started eating normally again. 166 00:12:28,476 --> 00:12:31,156 Speaker 7: What we know about the human body of a normal 167 00:12:31,596 --> 00:12:36,156 Speaker 7: weight person reacting to starvation is based on the Minnesota experiment. 168 00:12:37,156 --> 00:12:41,476 Speaker 2: The Minnesota experiment is the gold standard. I did have 169 00:12:41,596 --> 00:12:45,396 Speaker 2: a thing in my podcast this season where I asked 170 00:12:45,636 --> 00:12:49,196 Speaker 2: researchers for their magic wand experiment, which is the experiment 171 00:12:49,756 --> 00:12:51,796 Speaker 2: that they would do if I gave them a magic 172 00:12:51,836 --> 00:12:57,076 Speaker 2: wand and they could wave away all logistical, financial, practical, ethical, 173 00:12:57,276 --> 00:13:01,076 Speaker 2: whatever constraints. And I'm curious, if I gave you a 174 00:13:01,076 --> 00:13:04,756 Speaker 2: magic wand, what is the diet or nutrition study that 175 00:13:04,836 --> 00:13:05,916 Speaker 2: you would do? 176 00:13:05,956 --> 00:13:09,076 Speaker 7: You mean ethica also is uh, we forget about it 177 00:13:09,916 --> 00:13:12,036 Speaker 7: to try to do a similar study. But now we 178 00:13:12,116 --> 00:13:17,836 Speaker 7: have so much more technology. We can monitor physical activity, 179 00:13:18,596 --> 00:13:24,396 Speaker 7: a lot of the changes of function functional, whether it's muscle, 180 00:13:24,516 --> 00:13:29,196 Speaker 7: whether it's immune function, and all that. 181 00:13:30,276 --> 00:13:33,916 Speaker 2: What you're saying is you'd simply redo the Minnesota study, 182 00:13:33,996 --> 00:13:37,956 Speaker 2: only this time use modern methods to gather an order 183 00:13:37,996 --> 00:13:43,396 Speaker 2: of magnitude more data. Right, The whole point of a 184 00:13:43,436 --> 00:13:46,396 Speaker 2: magic wand experiment is that it's the experiment you could 185 00:13:46,396 --> 00:13:49,636 Speaker 2: never do in real life. Ansel Keys did the perfect 186 00:13:49,676 --> 00:13:53,916 Speaker 2: experiment without a magic wand. And why was Ansel Keys 187 00:13:53,956 --> 00:13:57,076 Speaker 2: able to do that? Because he was lucky enough to 188 00:13:57,196 --> 00:14:01,276 Speaker 2: find volunteers willing to starve themselves to the point where 189 00:14:01,276 --> 00:14:04,796 Speaker 2: their faces were flecked with black dots, their noses were bony, 190 00:14:04,996 --> 00:14:09,076 Speaker 2: their cheeks protruding, their hair coarse and straight, and following 191 00:14:09,196 --> 00:14:10,196 Speaker 2: out in big clubs. 192 00:14:11,676 --> 00:14:17,836 Speaker 7: This is e and really really really huge contribution to humanity, 193 00:14:18,436 --> 00:14:21,076 Speaker 7: to humanity, and they were not forced. 194 00:14:20,796 --> 00:14:21,236 Speaker 8: To do it. 195 00:14:27,036 --> 00:14:29,756 Speaker 2: When the US entered World War two, Lester Glick was 196 00:14:29,756 --> 00:14:34,276 Speaker 2: twenty three years old, he declared himself a conscientious objector. 197 00:14:34,836 --> 00:14:37,556 Speaker 2: He had grown up in a Mennonite family, attending one 198 00:14:37,556 --> 00:14:40,996 Speaker 2: of the historic peace churches where pacifism is a tenant 199 00:14:40,996 --> 00:14:44,836 Speaker 2: of faith. Glick was assigned to Ipsilenty, Michigan, to the 200 00:14:44,876 --> 00:14:48,676 Speaker 2: State Mental Hospital. He was the night charge attendant on 201 00:14:48,756 --> 00:14:53,276 Speaker 2: the active tuberculosis ward. Then one day he saw a 202 00:14:53,356 --> 00:14:55,156 Speaker 2: notice on a bulletin board. 203 00:14:55,596 --> 00:14:59,036 Speaker 1: And at the top there was a statement that said, 204 00:14:59,236 --> 00:15:05,236 Speaker 1: will you starve that they be better fed. So Lester 205 00:15:05,276 --> 00:15:08,396 Speaker 1: Glick would have seen this that spoke to him in 206 00:15:08,436 --> 00:15:09,276 Speaker 1: his langu. 207 00:15:09,236 --> 00:15:13,356 Speaker 2: Which that's Dwayne Stoltzless, a historian at the same men 208 00:15:13,356 --> 00:15:16,356 Speaker 2: in Night school. Lester Glick once attended Goshen College. 209 00:15:18,076 --> 00:15:21,276 Speaker 1: I think when I was hungry, did you feed me? 210 00:15:21,436 --> 00:15:23,996 Speaker 1: When I was thirsty? Did you give me something to drink? 211 00:15:24,476 --> 00:15:27,556 Speaker 1: It is that kind of language. So it very much 212 00:15:27,676 --> 00:15:34,236 Speaker 1: is responding to Christ's invitation to go out into the world, 213 00:15:34,476 --> 00:15:38,196 Speaker 1: not to stay in your church, but to go out 214 00:15:38,236 --> 00:15:42,596 Speaker 1: into the world and to do good work and be 215 00:15:42,796 --> 00:15:46,836 Speaker 1: judged by those actions. 216 00:15:47,876 --> 00:15:51,676 Speaker 2: Matthew twenty five, verse thirty five, the same crucial verse 217 00:15:51,956 --> 00:15:54,716 Speaker 2: I talked about a few episodes ago in talking about 218 00:15:54,756 --> 00:16:00,356 Speaker 2: refugees and acts of kindness. My friend Jim Leptisen, who's 219 00:16:00,356 --> 00:16:03,956 Speaker 2: a Menonite pastor, calls Matthew twenty five the national anthem 220 00:16:03,996 --> 00:16:06,996 Speaker 2: of the Mennonite Church, the verse that defines the Mennonite 221 00:16:07,076 --> 00:16:11,116 Speaker 2: religious calling to welcome this stranger, to clothe the naked, 222 00:16:11,636 --> 00:16:13,396 Speaker 2: and to feed the hungry. 223 00:16:14,956 --> 00:16:20,916 Speaker 1: For Mennonites certainly of luster Glicks generation, but I would 224 00:16:20,956 --> 00:16:26,556 Speaker 1: say across generations, the reading of Matthew twenty five is 225 00:16:27,076 --> 00:16:37,676 Speaker 1: a literal reading. It is a powerful invitation to step 226 00:16:37,716 --> 00:16:40,436 Speaker 1: out of your comfort zone and go to places that 227 00:16:40,516 --> 00:16:49,356 Speaker 1: are dangerous and risky and uncomfortable in order to do good. 228 00:16:50,556 --> 00:16:54,196 Speaker 8: And this is another front spread over the face of America. 229 00:16:55,996 --> 00:17:00,716 Speaker 8: Like the other fronts, it is big and complicated, so 230 00:17:00,956 --> 00:17:03,036 Speaker 8: big that only a few men in the whole nation 231 00:17:03,676 --> 00:17:06,756 Speaker 8: can understand its real capacity for waiting war. 232 00:17:10,596 --> 00:17:13,476 Speaker 2: So Lester Blick moved to Minneapolis and took one of 233 00:17:13,476 --> 00:17:15,716 Speaker 2: the long line of cots that ansel Keys had set 234 00:17:15,796 --> 00:17:21,636 Speaker 2: up underneath the school's football stadium. He became a guinea pig. 235 00:17:27,156 --> 00:17:30,636 Speaker 2: Now did lester Glick understand in that moment what he 236 00:17:30,716 --> 00:17:34,956 Speaker 2: was getting into. Of course not nobody did. That's the 237 00:17:34,956 --> 00:17:39,076 Speaker 2: point of an experiment. The subject commits to an uncertain outcome. 238 00:17:39,756 --> 00:17:42,556 Speaker 2: But over the course of his long year in Minneapolis, 239 00:17:42,796 --> 00:17:46,356 Speaker 2: he documents in his diaries his descent into a kind 240 00:17:46,356 --> 00:17:46,756 Speaker 2: of hell. 241 00:17:49,876 --> 00:17:52,396 Speaker 1: He is just one of the kindest, most gracious people. 242 00:17:52,436 --> 00:17:55,076 Speaker 1: But as he writes about his experience, he writes about 243 00:17:55,076 --> 00:17:59,036 Speaker 1: getting really angry, angry with the officials in charge because 244 00:17:59,036 --> 00:18:03,396 Speaker 1: they've taken away his allotment of bread. You know, he's 245 00:18:03,436 --> 00:18:05,796 Speaker 1: no longer getting the two slices he thought he was 246 00:18:05,836 --> 00:18:08,436 Speaker 1: going to get because he's not losing weight fast enough. 247 00:18:10,076 --> 00:18:12,396 Speaker 2: Back when lester Glick had been working at the State 248 00:18:12,436 --> 00:18:15,876 Speaker 2: mental hospital in Michigan, he wrote with pride about the 249 00:18:15,876 --> 00:18:19,756 Speaker 2: connections he made with patients who could not speak. He 250 00:18:19,796 --> 00:18:23,036 Speaker 2: loved to work with patients and help them. But now 251 00:18:23,316 --> 00:18:28,316 Speaker 2: in his hunger, he was becoming isolated, antisocial. He started 252 00:18:28,316 --> 00:18:32,196 Speaker 2: to dislike the company of his fellow guinea pigs, and. 253 00:18:32,116 --> 00:18:36,076 Speaker 1: So there is the separation that starts to take place, 254 00:18:36,076 --> 00:18:39,876 Speaker 1: as breakdown in relations that is not at all in 255 00:18:39,956 --> 00:18:44,676 Speaker 1: keeping with the real luster Glick, but it was the 256 00:18:44,756 --> 00:18:52,516 Speaker 1: new Mault nourish Luster Glick who was separated from all 257 00:18:52,556 --> 00:18:53,756 Speaker 1: the people around him. 258 00:18:54,156 --> 00:18:56,556 Speaker 2: He understands that what it means to be hungry is 259 00:18:57,396 --> 00:19:04,036 Speaker 2: not a momentary physiological deficit. It is a profound and 260 00:19:04,316 --> 00:19:07,396 Speaker 2: overwhelming deprivation on every level. 261 00:19:09,876 --> 00:19:15,876 Speaker 1: It's a deep isolation and an isolation that goes against 262 00:19:16,956 --> 00:19:20,756 Speaker 1: the building up of community that he's been a part 263 00:19:20,796 --> 00:19:27,316 Speaker 1: of since childhood. That church community, the family community was 264 00:19:27,996 --> 00:19:31,356 Speaker 1: had shaped who he was in the most basic ways. 265 00:19:33,716 --> 00:19:36,516 Speaker 2: In the bit of scripture so essential to Mennonites. For 266 00:19:36,676 --> 00:19:40,596 Speaker 2: I was hungry, and you fed me, Lesterglick now understands 267 00:19:40,756 --> 00:19:45,676 Speaker 2: what hungry means. It's not just calorie deprivation, it's the 268 00:19:45,716 --> 00:19:50,636 Speaker 2: absence of any kind of sustenance. And then at the 269 00:19:50,716 --> 00:19:53,596 Speaker 2: end of his time in Minneapolis, he discovers he has 270 00:19:53,636 --> 00:19:56,916 Speaker 2: developed tuberculosis as a result of his ordeal. 271 00:20:03,316 --> 00:20:06,796 Speaker 4: So daddy's plan had been to go to medical school 272 00:20:06,836 --> 00:20:08,676 Speaker 4: when he was in college, and he was going to 273 00:20:08,676 --> 00:20:11,676 Speaker 4: be a doctor. And then when he got TV during 274 00:20:11,716 --> 00:20:14,996 Speaker 4: the starvation experiment, that his doctors told him that he 275 00:20:15,036 --> 00:20:18,836 Speaker 4: couldn't withstand the rigors of medical school and medical education 276 00:20:18,956 --> 00:20:22,396 Speaker 4: and then medical practice, and so they advised him to 277 00:20:22,436 --> 00:20:24,596 Speaker 4: do something else, and he chose social work. 278 00:20:25,436 --> 00:20:27,636 Speaker 2: His life took a profoundly different turn. 279 00:20:28,476 --> 00:20:31,476 Speaker 4: He got a master's and then he got his PhD 280 00:20:31,596 --> 00:20:35,676 Speaker 4: at Washington University in Saint Louis because he felt like, 281 00:20:36,956 --> 00:20:40,276 Speaker 4: as he practiced social work that social work education was 282 00:20:40,476 --> 00:20:43,756 Speaker 4: what his calling was. So he wanted to teach other 283 00:20:43,836 --> 00:20:50,796 Speaker 4: people how to practice social work with the principles of 284 00:20:52,236 --> 00:20:57,396 Speaker 4: loving kindness and not just as a sort of mechanical 285 00:20:57,436 --> 00:21:00,396 Speaker 4: practice of obtaining services for people. 286 00:21:01,236 --> 00:21:04,316 Speaker 2: Glick started a school of social work at Goshient College, 287 00:21:04,516 --> 00:21:07,396 Speaker 2: his alma mater in Indiana. He went on to start 288 00:21:07,436 --> 00:21:10,836 Speaker 2: another school of social work at Syracuse University, then one 289 00:21:10,916 --> 00:21:14,116 Speaker 2: of the University of Southern Mississippi. He's a social work 290 00:21:14,156 --> 00:21:14,876 Speaker 2: school planter. 291 00:21:15,436 --> 00:21:18,356 Speaker 4: Yes, yes, that's exactly right. 292 00:21:19,316 --> 00:21:23,116 Speaker 2: Inglick's self published memoirs, there's a chart called places I 293 00:21:23,156 --> 00:21:26,636 Speaker 2: Have called Home, which takes up an entire page. Thirty 294 00:21:26,676 --> 00:21:31,676 Speaker 2: eight addresses in all Webster Groves, Missouri, South Main Street, Coast, Indiana, 295 00:21:31,956 --> 00:21:36,916 Speaker 2: Ramsey Avenue, Syracuse, New York, Montague Street, Hattiesburg, Mississippi, criss 296 00:21:36,956 --> 00:21:41,196 Speaker 2: crossing the country his entire adult life in pursuit of 297 00:21:41,236 --> 00:21:41,836 Speaker 2: the hungary. 298 00:21:43,076 --> 00:21:45,636 Speaker 4: One of the things, one of the practices that he 299 00:21:46,036 --> 00:21:50,196 Speaker 4: in forrest t while we were growing up, is that 300 00:21:50,316 --> 00:21:52,796 Speaker 4: he wanted us to know what hunger was like as well, 301 00:21:52,876 --> 00:21:55,596 Speaker 4: so we could be empathic for people who were not 302 00:21:55,836 --> 00:22:01,716 Speaker 4: able to eat like we were. So Wednesdays, every Wednesday, 303 00:22:02,076 --> 00:22:06,676 Speaker 4: all we could eat was white rice all day, and 304 00:22:06,836 --> 00:22:10,156 Speaker 4: we had limited servings. Some of my first memories was, 305 00:22:10,356 --> 00:22:13,156 Speaker 4: you know, reading rice on Wednesdays, and then I mean 306 00:22:13,196 --> 00:22:15,676 Speaker 4: I did that until I went to college. 307 00:22:16,276 --> 00:22:20,036 Speaker 2: How did you and your siblings feel about that? Did 308 00:22:20,076 --> 00:22:22,436 Speaker 2: you understand the point of it? 309 00:22:23,036 --> 00:22:27,516 Speaker 4: I don't think we did, except we knew how important 310 00:22:27,556 --> 00:22:30,596 Speaker 4: it was to our father, and we laughed about it 311 00:22:30,636 --> 00:22:32,516 Speaker 4: and kind of kidded him about it. But I don't 312 00:22:32,556 --> 00:22:35,036 Speaker 4: remember any of us ever saying this is stupid, we're 313 00:22:35,076 --> 00:22:37,716 Speaker 4: not doing this. We just we did it. 314 00:22:37,716 --> 00:22:41,716 Speaker 2: It's not a trivial thing. If you're hungry to be fat, 315 00:22:42,596 --> 00:22:44,796 Speaker 2: It's one of the greatest services you can do to 316 00:22:44,876 --> 00:22:49,636 Speaker 2: another human being. 317 00:22:50,876 --> 00:22:54,076 Speaker 4: When he was dying. They lived in a little retirement community, 318 00:22:54,956 --> 00:22:59,956 Speaker 4: and they had these little individual sort of apartments where 319 00:22:59,956 --> 00:23:06,076 Speaker 4: people could live that were freestanding. And Daddy, he always 320 00:23:06,156 --> 00:23:09,076 Speaker 4: was a gardener. He had a really great green thumb, 321 00:23:09,796 --> 00:23:13,756 Speaker 4: and so he had a large garden where he provided 322 00:23:14,076 --> 00:23:17,036 Speaker 4: fresh vegetables for all the people in the twelve little 323 00:23:17,116 --> 00:23:21,116 Speaker 4: units where they lived. And when he got sick that year, 324 00:23:21,316 --> 00:23:24,116 Speaker 4: he couldn't maintain his garden anymore, and he was very 325 00:23:24,156 --> 00:23:26,636 Speaker 4: concerned about where his neighbors were going to get their 326 00:23:26,676 --> 00:23:29,156 Speaker 4: fresh vegetables if he wasn't able to provide them for him. 327 00:23:31,396 --> 00:23:34,316 Speaker 2: The more time I've spent looking at the starvation experiment, 328 00:23:34,716 --> 00:23:37,276 Speaker 2: the less I've understood why so many people in the 329 00:23:37,316 --> 00:23:41,796 Speaker 2: scientific community are uneasy with what happened. People say, nothing 330 00:23:41,876 --> 00:23:45,356 Speaker 2: like that could and should be done today. But why, 331 00:23:46,076 --> 00:23:49,156 Speaker 2: what exactly is it about the experiment that is so 332 00:23:49,316 --> 00:23:53,436 Speaker 2: incomprehensible to us today. I think the answer is that 333 00:23:53,476 --> 00:23:55,756 Speaker 2: we focus far too much on what was given up 334 00:23:55,836 --> 00:23:59,036 Speaker 2: in the moment by the volunteers, and we forget about 335 00:23:59,036 --> 00:24:01,956 Speaker 2: what was gained down the road as the result of 336 00:24:01,996 --> 00:24:16,156 Speaker 2: that suffering. The Minnesota experiment left a permanent mark on 337 00:24:16,236 --> 00:24:20,116 Speaker 2: nearly every one of its participants, they understood something about 338 00:24:20,156 --> 00:24:24,636 Speaker 2: food and hunger that they hadn't before their experience. Of 339 00:24:24,676 --> 00:24:27,036 Speaker 2: the eighteen who left their oral histories with the Library 340 00:24:27,036 --> 00:24:31,556 Speaker 2: of Congress, seven signed out for something called Heifer's for Relief, 341 00:24:32,196 --> 00:24:35,356 Speaker 2: a program that after the war, shipped livestock from America 342 00:24:35,396 --> 00:24:39,076 Speaker 2: to Europe. The volunteers took trips back and forth across 343 00:24:39,156 --> 00:24:43,916 Speaker 2: the Atlantic, taking care of the animals. Another Minnesota participant 344 00:24:44,236 --> 00:24:47,716 Speaker 2: worked in relief camps after the war. Sam Legg, one 345 00:24:47,756 --> 00:24:49,676 Speaker 2: of the leaders of the Guinea Pigs, worked with the 346 00:24:49,756 --> 00:24:52,516 Speaker 2: Quakers to buy food for the Hungary and post war Europe. 347 00:24:52,916 --> 00:24:56,476 Speaker 2: Marshall Sutton traveled to the Middle East to feed refugees 348 00:24:56,516 --> 00:25:00,556 Speaker 2: in Gaza. Several more went to Divinity School. Another man 349 00:25:00,596 --> 00:25:04,436 Speaker 2: spent thirty years as a missionary in South Africa, Mozambique, 350 00:25:04,676 --> 00:25:08,116 Speaker 2: and Kenya. And Lester Glick set out to plant social 351 00:25:08,156 --> 00:25:13,476 Speaker 2: work schools throughout the United States, feeding the hungry in spirit, 352 00:25:14,236 --> 00:25:18,396 Speaker 2: but also just the hungry, because after his year in Minneapolis, 353 00:25:18,556 --> 00:25:22,916 Speaker 2: he no longer made a distinction between spiritual and physical deprivation. 354 00:25:26,276 --> 00:25:29,476 Speaker 2: In his diary of his experience in Minnesota, Lick wrote, 355 00:25:29,676 --> 00:25:31,796 Speaker 2: when he was deep into the starvation phase. 356 00:25:32,556 --> 00:25:38,596 Speaker 3: Books on starvation tell us that hungry people eat clay wood, bark, 357 00:25:39,196 --> 00:25:45,356 Speaker 3: unclean animals and often become cannibalistic. Yesterday I took the 358 00:25:45,436 --> 00:25:48,396 Speaker 3: lead out of a pencil and began chewing the wood. 359 00:25:51,076 --> 00:25:56,836 Speaker 3: It tasted all right. For some crazy reason, I crave 360 00:25:56,996 --> 00:26:02,876 Speaker 3: raw horseradish, sassafras roots, and rabbit meat. I think about 361 00:26:02,876 --> 00:26:05,996 Speaker 3: how cannibalism is a terrible option for a starving person 362 00:26:06,436 --> 00:26:08,756 Speaker 3: and try to put it out of my mind, but 363 00:26:08,836 --> 00:26:11,236 Speaker 3: I can't seem to stop thinking about it. 364 00:26:14,076 --> 00:26:16,836 Speaker 2: You don't really get over of feelings like that. The 365 00:26:16,876 --> 00:26:19,756 Speaker 2: best you can do is channel them into something else. 366 00:26:21,236 --> 00:26:27,196 Speaker 2: For Glick, it became cinnamon rolls. After his year in Minnesota. 367 00:26:27,436 --> 00:26:31,196 Speaker 2: He became obsessed with them. He cut out a picture 368 00:26:31,196 --> 00:26:33,836 Speaker 2: of cinnamon rolls from a magazine and carried it with 369 00:26:33,956 --> 00:26:36,796 Speaker 2: him at all times. It was in his wallet until 370 00:26:36,796 --> 00:26:37,436 Speaker 2: the day he died. 371 00:26:38,716 --> 00:26:48,396 Speaker 5: So Dad was known for his cinnamon rolls. He made 372 00:26:48,516 --> 00:26:56,756 Speaker 5: these deep fried cinnamon rolls that were just amazingly delicious things, 373 00:26:55,996 --> 00:27:00,916 Speaker 5: and he would make literally thousands of roles. There's a 374 00:27:00,916 --> 00:27:06,276 Speaker 5: picture of me or one of my siblings sitting at 375 00:27:06,276 --> 00:27:09,596 Speaker 5: the kitchen table and the tables covered in rolls. There 376 00:27:09,596 --> 00:27:12,116 Speaker 5: are roles on the counters behind. 377 00:27:11,796 --> 00:27:13,196 Speaker 1: Us, and. 378 00:27:14,636 --> 00:27:17,956 Speaker 5: Dead took great delight in taking those roles to people, 379 00:27:18,116 --> 00:27:23,436 Speaker 5: of bringing them into church and people enjoying them. And 380 00:27:23,596 --> 00:27:27,596 Speaker 5: it's kind of a microcosm of what Dad was up 381 00:27:27,636 --> 00:27:33,676 Speaker 5: to his whole life, of giving people some kind of 382 00:27:33,836 --> 00:27:40,996 Speaker 5: sustenance that brought them to an unexpectedly good place. 383 00:27:42,876 --> 00:27:45,996 Speaker 2: Byron was in a little office in his home in Wisconsin, 384 00:27:46,476 --> 00:27:49,316 Speaker 2: remembering his father, who had been dead for twenty years. 385 00:27:49,956 --> 00:27:53,156 Speaker 2: But there was something in that specific memory of the 386 00:27:53,196 --> 00:28:00,196 Speaker 2: cinnamon roles that moved him. Yeah, yeah, Byron, this has 387 00:28:00,236 --> 00:28:04,676 Speaker 2: been I have one last request of you. Sure, I 388 00:28:04,716 --> 00:28:10,076 Speaker 2: would like you can you read that passage from Matthew 389 00:28:10,236 --> 00:28:12,236 Speaker 2: give me King James. 390 00:28:12,916 --> 00:28:13,716 Speaker 1: That's too properly. 391 00:28:15,476 --> 00:28:17,836 Speaker 5: Actually, let me run get a bible. 392 00:28:19,236 --> 00:28:21,876 Speaker 2: He left the room and came back with a family heirloom, 393 00:28:22,236 --> 00:28:27,196 Speaker 2: his grandfather's Bible, battered leather bound, handed down from his 394 00:28:27,236 --> 00:28:30,996 Speaker 2: grandfather to his father and from his father to him. 395 00:28:32,756 --> 00:28:38,516 Speaker 2: Byron look for the passage in Matthew, the Mennonite national anthem. 396 00:28:37,956 --> 00:28:41,196 Speaker 5: For I was in hungered and you gave me me. 397 00:28:42,156 --> 00:28:46,276 Speaker 5: I was thirsty and you gave me drink. I was 398 00:28:46,316 --> 00:28:51,276 Speaker 5: a stranger, and you took me in naked and he 399 00:28:51,436 --> 00:28:56,476 Speaker 5: clothed me. I was sick and he visited me. I 400 00:28:56,636 --> 00:29:02,556 Speaker 5: was in prison and you came unto me. Verily, I say, 401 00:29:02,636 --> 00:29:06,356 Speaker 5: unto you, insomuch as you have done it onto one 402 00:29:06,396 --> 00:29:11,356 Speaker 5: of the least of my brethren, you have also done 403 00:29:11,396 --> 00:29:12,516 Speaker 5: it unto me. 404 00:29:26,556 --> 00:29:31,396 Speaker 2: That's beautiful. Yeah, Byron, thank you so much. This has been. 405 00:29:32,436 --> 00:29:54,916 Speaker 2: What a wonderful What a wonderful father old man. Revisionist 406 00:29:54,956 --> 00:29:58,156 Speaker 2: History is produced by Elabi's Linton Leam and Gesteu and 407 00:29:58,236 --> 00:30:01,916 Speaker 2: Jacob Smith, with Tolly Emlin. Our editor is Julia Parton. 408 00:30:02,316 --> 00:30:06,316 Speaker 2: Our executive producer is Mei LaBelle. Original scoring by Luis Garra, 409 00:30:06,796 --> 00:30:10,996 Speaker 2: mastering by Flon Williams, an engine by Nina Lawrence, fact 410 00:30:11,076 --> 00:30:17,196 Speaker 2: checking by Beth Johnson, voice acting by Tim Heller. Special 411 00:30:17,196 --> 00:30:21,436 Speaker 2: thanks to the Pushkin Crew. Hatherefeine, Eric Sandler, Maggie Taylor, 412 00:30:21,716 --> 00:30:26,396 Speaker 2: Sean Karney, Morgan Ratner, Mary bes Smith, Jordan McMillan, Carl Migliori, 413 00:30:26,916 --> 00:30:32,476 Speaker 2: Maya Knig, Royston Deserve, Danielle Lacan, Nicole Morano, Isabella Nervaya's 414 00:30:33,116 --> 00:30:38,676 Speaker 2: Letal Mollaude John Schnar's Jason Gambrel Amanda k Wong, Kezatan 415 00:30:39,036 --> 00:30:43,476 Speaker 2: and of course our fearless leader bel Hafe. Jacob Weissberg. 416 00:30:44,556 --> 00:30:46,356 Speaker 2: I'm Malcolm Glappo. 417 00:30:58,876 --> 00:31:03,436 Speaker 1: Machabour. 418 00:31:04,556 --> 00:31:08,196 Speaker 2: If you target towns and cities, it's as clear as 419 00:31:08,276 --> 00:31:13,956 Speaker 2: day that they're will be civilian victims. In nineteen forty five, 420 00:31:14,396 --> 00:31:17,596 Speaker 2: the US firebomb Tokyo, destroying a quarter of the city 421 00:31:17,876 --> 00:31:21,636 Speaker 2: and killing more than one hundred thousand people. I wrote 422 00:31:21,636 --> 00:31:26,156 Speaker 2: about this infamous bombing campaign in my audiobook The Bomber Mafia, 423 00:31:26,276 --> 00:31:28,756 Speaker 2: and one of the survivor's voices we Hear, is from 424 00:31:28,796 --> 00:31:33,716 Speaker 2: a project called Paper City. Paper City is now out 425 00:31:33,916 --> 00:31:39,516 Speaker 2: as a groundbreaking feature documentary. Director Adrian Francis explores what 426 00:31:39,676 --> 00:31:43,716 Speaker 2: we choose to remember and hope to forget. To find 427 00:31:43,756 --> 00:31:48,996 Speaker 2: out more, visit papercityfilm dot com and follow at Paper 428 00:31:48,996 --> 00:31:54,636 Speaker 2: City Tokyo on social media.