Speaker 1: Hey everyone, It's Jay Schetty and I'm thrilled to announce
Speaker 1: my podcast tour. For the first time ever. You can
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Speaker 1: me in a city near you for meaningful, insightful conversations
Speaker 1: with surprise guests. It could be a celebrity, top wellness expert,
Speaker 1: or a CEO or business leader. We'll dive into experiences
Speaker 1: designed to inspire growth, spark learning, and build real connections.
Speaker 1: I can't wait to see you there. Tickets are on
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Speaker 2: This is a world where somebody can have over one
Speaker 2: hundred billion dollars. What is that These fortunes are almost
Speaker 2: illegitimate unless in a very smart way given back. One
Speaker 2: of the biggest names in business, tech, and philanthropy.
Speaker 1: Exploring and investing in innovative solutions.
Speaker 2: To some of the world's toughest problems, Bill Gates. Starting
Speaker 2: with Microsoft, where I had monomaniacal focus, giving up weekends
Speaker 2: and vacation wasn't some big sacrifice. I loved it. The
Speaker 2: idea that everybody would use a computer was somewhat ridiculed,
Speaker 2: so it was kind of fun say no, no, this
Speaker 2: is really going to be mainstream.
Speaker 1: If you look at it from the outside, you see
Speaker 1: Steve Jobs and yourself having this competition, envy, jealousy. What
Speaker 1: was actually like?
Speaker 2: He said, we were the General Motors and he was
Speaker 2: Mercedes Social Networking. We're still arguing about what the policy
Speaker 2: should be. Algorithms reward outrageous things, even if they're not
Speaker 2: at all factual. I've always underestimated how incredible my father was.
Speaker 2: He would say, hey, I'm sorry, I worked so hard,
Speaker 2: and I'd say, no, no, no, that was fine. I feel
Speaker 2: lucky that he lived as long as he did. It
Speaker 2: brings tears to my eyes because he was incredible.
Speaker 1: Do you remember one of the final conversations you had
Speaker 1: within the number one Health and Well in his podcast,
Speaker 1: Jay Shetty Bill Gates, Welcome to on Purpose. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much for this opportunity. I'm so grateful, great.
Speaker 2: To be here.
Speaker 1: I have to start by saying that when I was
Speaker 1: reading source code, I believe I got an unbelievable perspective
Speaker 1: and a deep sense of gratitude that I didn't have
Speaker 1: before for how hard it is to build code, software
Speaker 1: and computers. And I really feel that my generation and
Speaker 1: beyond have often taken for granted these inventions, and so
Speaker 1: I just wanted to start by saying that's what took
Speaker 1: me by surprise, and I was blown away as to
Speaker 1: the challenges of getting access to even using a computer,
Speaker 1: through being given permission, through to all the other battles
Speaker 1: that came with that journey. I was really really amazed
Speaker 1: and taken aback. So thank you for that. How does
Speaker 1: that feel hearing that.
Speaker 2: The idea that everybody would use computer was somewhat you know, ridiculed.
Speaker 2: So it was kind of fun to be part of
Speaker 2: a movement saying no, no, this is really going to
Speaker 2: be mainstream. We're going to make them cheaper and better.
Speaker 2: And you know the fact that I was lucky enough
Speaker 2: through my experience to be in on that secret and
Speaker 2: to get to kind of lead the way, you know,
Speaker 2: seeing that software would be the missing piece, I couldn't
Speaker 2: have been more lucky. And you know, now that's given
Speaker 2: me a lot of resources to to give back.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and that's why I wanted to ask you. The
Speaker 1: first question was what would you say is the most
Speaker 1: recent invention that you've genuinely been impressed by? Because I
Speaker 1: imagine that's quite hard for you, But is there a
Speaker 1: consumer product or something that really took you by surprising
Speaker 1: that you would say impressed you.
Speaker 2: Well, my whole career has been about innovation, whether it's
Speaker 2: Microsoft with software and now all this incredible AI advance.
Speaker 2: I do work on climate, which you know, we're trying
Speaker 2: to come up with innovation that can make clean products
Speaker 2: cost as little as the dirty puts so we can
Speaker 2: get them out there. And then my full time work
Speaker 2: is the Gates Foundation, where we're always coming up with
Speaker 2: new vaccines, new drugs. You know, we're even trying to
Speaker 2: come up with a way to cure HIV so you
Speaker 2: don't have to keep taking the medicine there. You know,
Speaker 2: I'd say the current work to understand why kids get
Speaker 2: malnourished is the thing I'm most excited about. Forty percent
Speaker 2: of kids in Africa don't develop their body or their
Speaker 2: brain and understanding, okay, what is it. They're getting enough calories,
Speaker 2: but there's something about that mix that you know, they
Speaker 2: never achieve their potential, either for themselves individually or for
Speaker 2: the country that they're part of. So I've gotten to
Speaker 2: be it's there's so many cool innovations and that the
Speaker 2: pace of all of that is going faster today than
Speaker 2: ever in my lifetime, you know. So it's a real
Speaker 2: privilege to work with innovators and back some of the
Speaker 2: them on things like malaria or malnutrition, which the market
Speaker 2: doesn't get resources to do that work. And you know,
Speaker 2: that's where philanthropy can make a very dramatic difference.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And as you were saying, discovering your potential was
Speaker 1: something that really happened for you on a lot of
Speaker 1: hikes that you went on in the book. And I
Speaker 1: loved learning about how being outdoors with such an integral
Speaker 1: part of your childhood and growing up. And I was wondering,
Speaker 1: if you could go on any hike in the world
Speaker 1: anyway right now, where would it be, Where would you
Speaker 1: choose to be.
Speaker 2: I take a lot of vacations near beaches, and I
Speaker 2: enjoy whoever i'm with, getting you know, two or three
Speaker 2: hours walking on the beach. You know, that's a great
Speaker 2: way to get updates from my kids and have them
Speaker 2: share what they're doing. I will say the forest hiking
Speaker 2: that I did as a child up in the Seattleeriot's
Speaker 2: called the Olympic Peninsula. There, there's just unbelievable hikes, and
Speaker 2: even though in that group of boys, I was the
Speaker 2: lead capable hiker and I would always vote for the
Speaker 2: shortest hike and going home the soonest just the camaraderie
Speaker 2: and the kind of beauty, you know, was so stunning.
Speaker 2: I really have to get back and do some of those.
Speaker 2: I haven't. I haven't done a lot of that, uh,
Speaker 2: since I was I was young.
Speaker 1: Whoa, whoa, Is it just a lack of time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd gotten myself so busy. I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: starting with Microsoft, where I had a monomaniacal focus, you know,
Speaker 2: kind of giving up weekends and vacation because I wanted
Speaker 2: to move faster. It wasn't some big sacrifice. I loved,
Speaker 2: loved it, but it meant that I shut a lot
Speaker 2: of other things out. And then only when I retired
Speaker 2: from Microsoft did I get to go back and take
Speaker 2: a little more time off. And you know, see all
Speaker 2: the other great things going on in the world, including
Speaker 2: all this health stuff. That is the thing I spend
Speaker 2: the most time on Now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's so much conversation today I feel about life balance.
Speaker 1: Do you think that that sacrifice and that dedicated time
Speaker 1: was necessary for the levels of success or would it
Speaker 1: have been possible in another way.
Speaker 2: No. I think for Microsoft to be successful, even though
Speaker 2: we were the first we and we had a broader
Speaker 2: concept of software than the other companies, we needed to
Speaker 2: be what I would call hardcore. And you know, in
Speaker 2: that case, the work is what I want to do.
Speaker 2: It's it's not like, oh God, you know, I've got
Speaker 2: to earn a little bit more money. It's you know,
Speaker 2: this is the thing that throughout my childhood I was
Speaker 2: so lucky, you know, because of my parents and some
Speaker 2: early friends. The school I went to, I had these
Speaker 2: exposures to computers that were very rare, and so I had,
Speaker 2: you know, all these thousands of hours of programming experience
Speaker 2: and great feedback on okay, how do you do it
Speaker 2: better from the very best adults. I got to see
Speaker 2: what was coming and the idea of being part of
Speaker 2: making that real. You know, I woke up and said, okay,
Speaker 2: I'd love to get to work. My younger self could
Speaker 2: stay in you know, days at a time. I don't
Speaker 2: do that now. But then it was just in no
Speaker 2: way a hardship because I felt we were part of
Speaker 2: something that was would be very empowering and you know,
Speaker 2: competitively I wanted us to be the ones to make
Speaker 2: it happen.
Speaker 1: One of your favorite quotes that I've always loved is
Speaker 1: you've said, we overestimate what we can do in one year,
Speaker 1: and we underestimate what we can do in ten yea
Speaker 1: is at the beginning, did you overall underestimate yourself?
Speaker 2: Well, people when they would hear us say a computer
Speaker 2: on every desk and in every home running Microsoft software,
Speaker 2: they were like, you kids are really out of it.
Speaker 2: I mean every desk, every home. You know, what would
Speaker 2: people do with these things? But because the chips were
Speaker 2: improving exponentially, doubling every couple of years, it allowed us
Speaker 2: to think of the computing part as essentially being free.
Speaker 2: And so the only thing that would hold you back
Speaker 2: is you know, okay, can you help people with photographs?
Speaker 2: Can you help them with documents? Can you help them
Speaker 2: stay in touch with people far away? Or find information?
Speaker 2: And we knew over time that as these things got better,
Speaker 2: it would would be part of the mainstream. And so
Speaker 2: as people sort of came around to that, they were like, Wow,
Speaker 2: whether it's at work or at home, this is just
Speaker 2: part of how people do things. And we wanted, you know,
Speaker 2: to get it out to everyone, you know, students everywhere,
Speaker 2: you know, even in the countries that are low income.
Speaker 1: You mentioned your parents earlier, and when I was reading
Speaker 1: this book, I felt like they are such a big
Speaker 1: paw of this book and the storytelling and the incredible
Speaker 1: experience is a memory. And one of the things you
Speaker 1: mentioned is you say that they felt that they accepted
Speaker 1: that you were different from your peers. And I was wondering,
Speaker 1: in what way, how did you know that they'd seen
Speaker 1: that and accepted that.
Speaker 2: Well, definitely confounded them that Sometimes I was pushing back
Speaker 2: in a pretty tough way, you know, as though you know,
Speaker 2: we were in some competition. They would hear from teachers,
Speaker 2: and they were very good about staying in touch with
Speaker 2: my teachers. You know. Some teachers would say this kid
Speaker 2: should be skipped ahead one or two grades. Some teachers
Speaker 2: would say this kid should be held back. You know,
Speaker 2: so that kind of is what you know, make up
Speaker 2: your mind. You know. I had one experience where I
Speaker 2: worked on a report about the state of Delaware and
Speaker 2: I ended up doing this two hundred page report with
Speaker 2: the great recover. Well, the other kids turned in you know,
Speaker 2: five or ten page reports, and it was very embarrassing
Speaker 2: that I thought, Wow, did I you know, kind of
Speaker 2: overdo this thing? And yet you know that ability to concentrate,
Speaker 2: you know, would hold me in good stead in terms
Speaker 2: of reading long books and applying that concentration and curiosity
Speaker 2: first to cards, then to math, and then finally to
Speaker 2: software and how would software change the world. But you know,
Speaker 2: they never were quite sure what to do, and you know,
Speaker 2: sending me to a therapist actually ended up being brilliant,
Speaker 2: and sending me to a very nice private school where
Speaker 2: the classes were a bit smaller and you know I
Speaker 2: could get I always got an unfair share of attention
Speaker 2: from the teachers. You know, we'd have like fifteen people
Speaker 2: in the class, but you know, almost twenty percent of
Speaker 2: the teacher's time in terms of telling me what to
Speaker 2: read or you know, marking my writing up. You know,
Speaker 2: I got an unfair share partly because my curiosity or
Speaker 2: energy level you know, did mark me out in both
Speaker 2: positive and negative ways.
Speaker 1: Yeah. What influence do you think doctor Christie actually had
Speaker 1: on you? Because therapy had that time and in your
Speaker 1: early edge, looking back on it, now, what do you
Speaker 1: feel it gave you? What skills did they give you?
Speaker 2: Well, it's very It was a very rare thing. In fact,
Speaker 2: the other people coming to him were these couples that
Speaker 2: were having arguments, and so in a I hope privacy
Speaker 2: appropriate way, he would kind of give me a sense
Speaker 2: of that. He gave me a few IQ tasks. He
Speaker 2: you know, had me read about Freud and all these things.
Speaker 2: But slowly, but surely he was saying to me that
Speaker 2: fighting your parents really has no purpose. I mean, they
Speaker 2: really do love you, they're on your side. You should
Speaker 2: apply your energy towards other things. And you know, eventually
Speaker 2: he made me feel kind of foolish, like, yeah, why
Speaker 2: was I taking these what I thought were kind of
Speaker 2: arbitrary rules or where my mom would say you should
Speaker 2: respect me and I'd say, well, you know, I don't know.
Speaker 2: And a little bit as I figured out I could
Speaker 2: understand things like playing cards as well, are better than
Speaker 2: my grandmother, or you know, I could read books had
Speaker 2: complicated things. I was a bit showing off to saying,
Speaker 2: because my cognition is good, why should you be able
Speaker 2: to set arbitrary rules. But anyway, I'm embarrassed when I
Speaker 2: think about it now. But doctor Crussey was so encouraging
Speaker 2: to me in general, and then got across. He probably
Speaker 2: understood at the first meeting that I had to be
Speaker 2: convinced to make this change. But he did it in
Speaker 2: this super nice way. And so the idea that no,
Speaker 2: my parents, yes they're imperfect, but wow, they're on my side,
Speaker 2: that that changed my behavior.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and did he as had these beautiful ways of
Speaker 1: you said he never belittled you, And I believe he
Speaker 1: used to mention to you going to win or he
Speaker 1: wanted you to win. And I feel like that's what
Speaker 1: did those things do because it's almost like you're saying
Speaker 1: he made you have this almost there's this realization that
Speaker 1: you were wrong. But it seemed like he did it
Speaker 1: in a very graceful, elegant way, Like how did how
Speaker 1: did he do that?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? They you know, I thought, oh, I need to
Speaker 2: be so clever to win, and I'm going to apply
Speaker 2: all this energy to win. And so the idea when
Speaker 2: he says, no, you're going to win, it's like, oh,
Speaker 2: I see, it's not because I'm clever, It's because it's
Speaker 2: as you know, they they care for me and they're trying,
Speaker 2: you know, to help me, and you know their main
Speaker 2: concern is am I ready? You know? To go out
Speaker 2: in the world and if I have capabilities, will I
Speaker 2: develop those and use those? And you know, my mom
Speaker 2: always had a way of kind of pushing me to
Speaker 2: do more. I said to her once, you know, you
Speaker 2: told me to go to the heart of school and
Speaker 2: she said, no, I never actually said that, And I said, well,
Speaker 2: wait a minute. When other parents would come over, you'd
Speaker 2: say how bad they must feel that their kid didn't
Speaker 2: go to college or something like that. So, okay, it
Speaker 2: was indirect, but you know it was kind of there.
Speaker 2: So you know, my mom certainly encouraged me, you know,
Speaker 2: and sometimes I felt overwhelmed by that. But my eventual
Speaker 2: reaction to just okay, try to outdo any levels she
Speaker 2: set and ended up working out.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, what was something that you didn't value about
Speaker 1: your mom at that time that now looking back, you say, no,
Speaker 1: I do value that.
Speaker 2: Well, things like table manners. I'm like, well, you know, okay,
Speaker 2: I have to take the catch up and put it
Speaker 2: in a bowl and then do this, and I'm not
Speaker 2: supposed to put my elbows on the table. And you know,
Speaker 2: she was just you know, trying to make sure I
Speaker 2: was civilized a little bit. You know, what I would
Speaker 2: wear and they definitely got me engaged with adults. You know,
Speaker 2: my social skills were slow to develop with people other
Speaker 2: than a few boys like myself, but with adults because
Speaker 2: they were having them over and I, you know, God,
Speaker 2: so I could ask those adults to talk about what
Speaker 2: they were doing. That was really valuable to me, because
Speaker 2: I ended up through that and through one of my
Speaker 2: early friends, having more of an outlook of okay, where
Speaker 2: am I headed at quite a young age, which was
Speaker 2: super helpful.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so funny. As I was reading the book,
Speaker 1: I was reminded of so when I graduated from college,
Speaker 1: I didn't go to my graduation ceremony because I left
Speaker 1: to become a monk, and my parents were They were
Speaker 1: very kind and accepting of my decision. But my mother
Speaker 1: still has this feeling that she doesn't have a picture
Speaker 1: of me graduating wearing the hat and you know, holding
Speaker 1: my certificate. And I remember I was having the same
Speaker 1: feeling that you were where my mom would always may
Speaker 1: say to me, Oh, when I go to my friend's houses,
Speaker 1: they're telling them about all the jobs that their kids
Speaker 1: are doing and the apartment they just moved into, and
Speaker 1: you're just there being a monk, like you know, she'd
Speaker 1: say that to me, and it was always that kind
Speaker 1: of feeling, like that sense of pressure to live up
Speaker 1: to something she wanted me to do, even though there
Speaker 1: was love and there was acceptance and I was wondering
Speaker 1: for you, like you said it yourself. She was such
Speaker 1: a powerhouse. She had such high expectations. When did you
Speaker 1: feel that you reached that or do you feel you've
Speaker 1: reached that?
Speaker 2: Well? Unfortunately, my mom passed away in her early sixties.
Speaker 2: She got breast cancer, and so I had gotten married
Speaker 2: six months before she passed this away, so she never
Speaker 2: got to see that. I tried to follow her example
Speaker 2: as a parent. She never got to see the foundation
Speaker 2: get going. My dad actually ran the foundation and got
Speaker 2: it off to a fantastic start, so he was involved.
Speaker 2: But her sort of dictate about, Okay, if you are successful,
Speaker 2: you have to give back. It's a shame that she
Speaker 2: didn't get to kind of participate and see that. I'm
Speaker 2: following what she said despite all the times I pushed
Speaker 2: back on her.
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you still feel that today that it's almost
Speaker 1: like she had voices in your head and she's present
Speaker 1: in that way. Oh?
Speaker 2: Absolutely. The you know, the sense I have of okay,
Speaker 2: I've got to do this and do that. Well, that's
Speaker 2: you know, really came from her. My dad more set
Speaker 2: the example of being calm and thoughtful, you know, also great,
Speaker 2: great values. But much you know, it wasn't through the interaction.
Speaker 2: He would you know, leave pretty early. And if my
Speaker 2: mom had to escalate to call him in, you knew
Speaker 2: you better give in because that was kind of the
Speaker 2: ultimate thing. But yeah, so each in their own way,
Speaker 2: he through example, her through high expectations, deserve a lot
Speaker 2: of credit. And you know, part of this book is
Speaker 2: to really honor them. And uh, two of the young
Speaker 2: friends I had who set me on a a great path.
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Speaker 1: make sure you use the code on Purpose. I was wondering,
Speaker 1: what was your biggest realization about your father from writing
Speaker 1: this book.
Speaker 2: It's weird. I've always underestimated how incredible my father was.
Speaker 2: His values, even the exchange with my mom. You know,
Speaker 2: before they get married. His One of his dreams was
Speaker 2: to be a federal judge, and he eventually that was
Speaker 2: offered to him. And because his law firm would have
Speaker 2: had great difficulties, he said, now, I that would hurt
Speaker 2: my colleagues, so I'm not going to do that. And
Speaker 2: I had written him a note saying, gosh, I hope
Speaker 2: it's not because she had to pay all that tuition,
Speaker 2: that you're not getting to do this, and I'd forgotten
Speaker 2: he'd written me back such a nice note. So, you know,
Speaker 2: in digging through, I'm amazed we end up keeping those things.
Speaker 2: It was so touching to me. Now, I you know,
Speaker 2: I'll spend my whole life trying to live up to
Speaker 2: the example.
Speaker 1: He said, what was it like finding that reply? Forgetting
Speaker 1: that he had replied, I mean no.
Speaker 2: Well, certainly it brings tears to my eyes, because you know,
Speaker 2: he was incredible, and towards the end of his life
Speaker 2: we did get a little more direct, you know, where
Speaker 2: he would say, hey, I'm sorry, I work so hard,
Speaker 2: and I'd say, no, no, no, that was fine to be
Speaker 2: doing that, you know. And so instead of things being
Speaker 2: sort of through my mom when she was gone, he
Speaker 2: had to build up that communication in a way it
Speaker 2: was far more intimate. You know, I feel lucky that
Speaker 2: he lived as long as he did.
Speaker 1: D How does that as that relationship evolves, Like it
Speaker 1: felt like when I was reading source Code, I felt
Speaker 1: like your father was there to always save you in
Speaker 1: these moments, like he'd pick up the phone, he'd be
Speaker 1: involved in, you know, talking to you and your friends,
Speaker 1: like he was there in these very pivotal moments that
Speaker 1: felt like almost professional support from him, of course based
Speaker 1: on his intelligence and background as well, But it sounds
Speaker 1: like that evolved to a much more emotive, intimate space
Speaker 1: like that. What does that look like for a father
Speaker 1: and a son across all those years?
Speaker 2: You know, and when I was going off to college,
Speaker 2: you know, I'd call my parents every couple of weeks,
Speaker 2: but you know, you couldn't like text and send photos
Speaker 2: and so but I always knew, you know, that they
Speaker 2: were supportive. And so I actually got into a little
Speaker 2: bit of trouble where I'd taken my colleagues into the
Speaker 2: computer center and done some of the early Microsoft basic work,
Speaker 2: and the college as they filled position to supervise that
Speaker 2: computer center, like wow, did you break the rules? And
Speaker 2: you know, my dad was always so kind of wise.
Speaker 2: You know, when I ever, it was like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: I may have screw it up here. I better get
Speaker 2: on top of this. You know, that's a time where
Speaker 2: I call him in and his advice is very helpful.
Speaker 2: You know. Then later we have a customer who's not
Speaker 2: paying us and our very first customer, another case where
Speaker 2: my dad encouraged me to stay the course. So it
Speaker 2: wasn't in those days that I talked to him a lot,
Speaker 2: but that when I was in trouble, he was the
Speaker 2: one person, you know who was so sophisticated, and you
Speaker 2: know on my side that his advice really did help
Speaker 2: me at a lot of key turning points. And you know,
Speaker 2: then later when we have a relationship where we actually
Speaker 2: talk intimately, I was able to to thank him for that.
Speaker 1: Do you remember one of the final conversations you had
Speaker 1: with him, and.
Speaker 2: Well he got Alzheimer's and he because he was such
Speaker 2: a nice person, he was still like super nice, you know,
Speaker 2: always worried did his caregivers get enough meals or you know,
Speaker 2: eventually the fact he grew up in the depression showed
Speaker 2: because he'd be worried about you know, are we buying
Speaker 2: too expensive a meal, you know, even though he had
Speaker 2: as much money as he could ever need, you know,
Speaker 2: so you know, we got back to his basic character,
Speaker 2: which was just very friendly and thoughtful. So yes, I
Speaker 2: feel like in his case, we did have those conversations
Speaker 2: that I never got to have with my mom.
Speaker 1: There's the one phone call you described the three words
Speaker 1: he used of I hear you when he was talking
Speaker 1: to the school, and that left such a strong imprint.
Speaker 1: Could you tell us why that was such a big
Speaker 1: moment for you?
Speaker 2: At that time, I was in this contract discussion with
Speaker 2: this group. I thought, you know, owed me some computer time.
Speaker 2: So that's the first time that my dad is pitching
Speaker 2: into help, and you know, I thought, what's he going
Speaker 2: to do? Is he gonna, you know, threaten them or
Speaker 2: be tough on them? And no, not at all. The
Speaker 2: fact that they sort of gave their side of the argument,
Speaker 2: and then you know, he just simply said I hear you,
Speaker 2: which was this way of saying, you know, I don't
Speaker 2: agree with that. You know, let's try and reach a
Speaker 2: compromise here. You have your point of view. So just
Speaker 2: the way he said I hear you, you know, kept
Speaker 2: things really calm, didn't acknowledge or attack their position, so
Speaker 2: we could get on to the Hey, you know, if
Speaker 2: you meet these guys halfway, isn't that okay for both
Speaker 2: of you here? Which is is what eventually came out
Speaker 2: of it. And so the idea of being subtle and
Speaker 2: helping to find that common ground I was young enough
Speaker 2: to that was kind of blew my mind. Yeah, wow,
Speaker 2: you can kind of hold your ground but without being provocative.
Speaker 1: What would you say is the one way your mother
Speaker 1: influenced your parenting style and then your father influenced your
Speaker 1: parenting style.
Speaker 2: Well, this idea that it was actually kind of school
Speaker 2: called love and logic, where you make expectations to the
Speaker 2: child very very clear, and you make consequences very very clear,
Speaker 2: and in an unemotional way, you say no, you're going
Speaker 2: to have to go to your room because we agreed.
Speaker 2: If you did this, that's what happens. My dad practiced
Speaker 2: that approach. My mom probably wanted to, but then if
Speaker 2: she was frustrated, you know, she'd be, oh, I'm so
Speaker 2: disappointed and kind of bring emotion into it. So the
Speaker 2: intensity of how much my mom cared, I you know,
Speaker 2: I think that was was great and I think kind
Speaker 2: of that calm, predictable. Hey, the world works in a
Speaker 2: clear way, and you know I'm on top of the world,
Speaker 2: and here's what I need from you. You know that
Speaker 2: very much came from my dad, So I tried to
Speaker 2: be a little more around. You know, my wife, Melinda
Speaker 2: deserves all the credit. You know that our kids have
Speaker 2: come out as well because she really was around. But
Speaker 2: I tried to be. That's the one thing I did
Speaker 2: a bit differently than my dad was was more more
Speaker 2: intense vacation time, a little bit more of a direct communication,
Speaker 2: not through their mother.
Speaker 1: How did you reconcile that towards the end about your
Speaker 1: father's style and how did you make space for that
Speaker 1: and accept that.
Speaker 2: In that generation. You know, my dad's career was a
Speaker 2: very big thing. In fact, having all sorts of adults
Speaker 2: around for events, you know, it was connected to his career,
Speaker 2: and you know he did very well. He was a
Speaker 2: top lawyer in Seattle. So I never resented the idea
Speaker 2: that that my dad was very busy. You know, you
Speaker 2: had kids early, you know, the man's career is important. Later.
Speaker 2: My mom also not only is doing volunteer activities, but
Speaker 2: as people wanted women on boards because she had the
Speaker 2: right background, she got a huge number of those opportunities,
Speaker 2: and she got a little busy herself. You know, I
Speaker 2: don't think the amount of time is the only the
Speaker 2: only key factor there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd have to agree. I was when I was
Speaker 1: reading it too, I was thinking that. And this was
Speaker 1: what I found so interesting though when I was reading
Speaker 1: source Code, that even though you have lived such an
Speaker 1: other worldly life in so many ways, there were so
Speaker 1: many relatable moments from a parenting standpoint, And when I
Speaker 1: was reading it, I was thinking about my father too,
Speaker 1: who wasn't around a lot when I was younger. He
Speaker 1: was working. Both my parents had to work. And to
Speaker 1: the point you just made right now, like my father
Speaker 1: wasn't there when I was playing rugby, or he wasn't
Speaker 1: there when I was swimming for my you know, local club,
Speaker 1: or he wasn't there on the sidelines cheering. And for me,
Speaker 1: that really allowed me to become the man I wanted
Speaker 1: to be, and it allowed me to have more freedom almost,
Speaker 1: to not feel like there was this heavy expectation. And
Speaker 1: I've always seen that as a positive thing because it
Speaker 1: allowed me to have a broader definition of what it
Speaker 1: meant to be a man, what it meant to be
Speaker 1: a son, what it meant to go off and discover
Speaker 1: something that I was passionate about. And so even seeing
Speaker 1: you kind of having your mother be the one who
Speaker 1: was almost you know, pushing the expectation and what the
Speaker 1: family should be, but then having a bit of freedom,
Speaker 1: it was interesting to see how that impacted you, to
Speaker 1: be able to push back, to be able to you know,
Speaker 1: even at one point, like you said in that letter,
Speaker 1: like parent him almost in his decision and play that role.
Speaker 1: It was refreshing for me to read a book about
Speaker 1: you where I was, where I was actually seeing pots
Speaker 1: of myself in certain relationships in a very relatable way.
Speaker 1: Did you Did you ever anticipate that when you were
Speaker 1: writing it.
Speaker 2: I was surprised, you know, so when I'm describing going
Speaker 2: on those hikes, I was thinking, boy, would I have
Speaker 2: let my son go off? And we really are holding
Speaker 2: back children a bit more, you know, out of a
Speaker 2: sense of okay, ultimate safety, I guess. But you know,
Speaker 2: in that generation I was allowed to take trips and
Speaker 2: hikes and and I think it benefited me. And so
Speaker 2: writing the book, I was like, wow, And you've talked
Speaker 2: with people like Jonathan hyde about this largely a bit overprotecting,
Speaker 2: you know, kids so that they don't get to make
Speaker 2: mistakes or try themselves out or mature the way that
Speaker 2: is best for them.
Speaker 1: Do you think school's failing to If.
Speaker 2: You have thirty people in a class, it's pretty tough.
Speaker 2: You're going to have some kids who are behind and
Speaker 2: somewhere our head. You know, even the best teacher has
Speaker 2: got a big challenge with that. Education I wouldn't say
Speaker 2: is much better or worse today than a few decades ago.
Speaker 2: We've always thought, okay, when we bring the computer in,
Speaker 2: you know, will that helpful? And certainly if you want
Speaker 2: to find information, it's been great. We're still working on
Speaker 2: that now with the AI. Maybe a personal tutor will
Speaker 2: be encouraging and work on your level. It's early days,
Speaker 2: but I've been out seeing some of that in classrooms,
Speaker 2: people like Salcon with Konomigo that our foundation is helping
Speaker 2: to support. But education, the computer has not made it
Speaker 2: so oh wow. Kids learn a lot more today than
Speaker 2: they did did a long time ago, and I still
Speaker 2: believe we can change that. But it means if you're
Speaker 2: in one of those large classes, you can feel lost,
Speaker 2: and you know, we're missing, you know, great human potential.
Speaker 1: What are we getting wrong? Because it sounds like you
Speaker 1: felt maybe the computer would give people that impetus and
Speaker 1: the ability to download more and len more. Where have
Speaker 1: we gone wrong?
Speaker 2: Well, the key is motivation. If you have a kid
Speaker 2: who's super motivated, then yes, going to the con website
Speaker 2: and doing hours of math problems, that's great. But in
Speaker 2: a way that takes the kid who's in that top
Speaker 2: twenty percent and makes him even more intimidating to the
Speaker 2: other ones. And you know, people can come in and
Speaker 2: if a kid in eighth grade says is math a
Speaker 2: subject you have any confidence in? If the answer no
Speaker 2: to that, they're five times more likely to drop out.
Speaker 2: And so we do lose kids, and it's more out
Speaker 2: of motivation. And so most of the stuff we've done
Speaker 2: on the computer is about okay, if you are motivated,
Speaker 2: will help you out, and not so much about how
Speaker 2: you make it feel relevant to them and give them
Speaker 2: a sense of success. And maybe this time around with
Speaker 2: these AI personal tutors will will get that right. But
Speaker 2: kids check out. No, I'm not one of those kids
Speaker 2: who's good at math, even though for a lot of professions,
Speaker 2: and you know, for college courses. We require algebra two
Speaker 2: tests to be passed in order to go on and
Speaker 2: you know, even be a nurse or a policeman. So
Speaker 2: we have we have work to do. But more on
Speaker 2: on the motivational side.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I really I really appreciate you saying that, actually,
Speaker 1: because I do think that we think about changing education
Speaker 1: is so theoretical and functional, but it is the drive,
Speaker 1: it is the motivation. And I was thinking about how
Speaker 1: we put limits on ourselves when I finished sixth grade.
Speaker 1: I remember before I went to high school, my favorite
Speaker 1: subject was math in sixth grade and my least favorite
Speaker 1: subject was off And then when I finished high school,
Speaker 1: my most favorite subject was art and my least favorite
Speaker 1: subject was math. And it was just fascinating to me
Speaker 1: how that completely flipped over a seven year period. And
Speaker 1: as I've grown up in my own life, I found
Speaker 1: that art and design, philosophy, economics are far more where
Speaker 1: I naturally gravitate toward. But so much of that up
Speaker 1: until sixth grade was the limits or the things that
Speaker 1: were expected of me, as opposed to what I was
Speaker 1: motivated and driven towards. And I was thinking about something
Speaker 1: you said in the book. You said that if you
Speaker 1: were growing up today, you would have been diagnosed with
Speaker 1: being on the autism spectrum, and I was wondering, how
Speaker 1: would that have affected you? How do you think that
Speaker 1: would have affected you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm fascinated by that because for some people, being
Speaker 2: given a label is a pejorative to them, and you know,
Speaker 2: almost feel shameful. Although we know, you know, being on
Speaker 2: the spectrum gives you, you know, almost some superpowerful concentration
Speaker 2: that if you find the right place, it can be helpful.
Speaker 2: Other people they're glad when they get that, because then
Speaker 2: they say, oh, that's why, you know, my social skills
Speaker 2: were slowed to develop, and you know, here's some strategies
Speaker 2: that people like me have used. I'm not alone in this,
Speaker 2: you know, I fit in into this, and it's actually
Speaker 2: a reasonably common thing. There isn't like some medicine ADHD,
Speaker 2: you know, which I probably also would have been diagnosed with.
Speaker 2: They do have the vocal and out or all a
Speaker 2: variety of things they give kids for that, And I
Speaker 2: still wonder about that. I haven't chosen as an adult
Speaker 2: to get a diagnosis or use those medicines. I think
Speaker 2: eventually you learn to, you know, adapt. I still kind
Speaker 2: of rock a little bit that when I'm thinking hard
Speaker 2: and without even knowing it, and it does bother people sometimes,
Speaker 2: And that's definitely kind of a what they call self
Speaker 2: stimulate behavior that you know, makes it pretty likely I
Speaker 2: fit into that diagnosis.
Speaker 1: Do you think it would have changed your trajectory of success?
Speaker 1: Have you thought about that?
Speaker 2: Or I worry that I might have thought of it
Speaker 2: as pejorative. It's really how you communicate it. I mean,
Speaker 2: if you say, hey, here's a kid who doesn't socialize
Speaker 2: at all, and you're you know, sort of destined to,
Speaker 2: you know, never be good at those things. You know,
Speaker 2: obviously to create a company, hire people, motivate people, go
Speaker 2: out and you know, sell the the dream of computing.
Speaker 2: I've had to, even though I'm not a natural, you know,
Speaker 2: develop a lot of social behaviors, and it might have
Speaker 2: discouraged me unless it was done in a very tasteful way,
Speaker 2: you know. I think of that doctor Kressey experience where
Speaker 2: he didn't make me feel terrible, why enlightening me that
Speaker 2: I was wasting my time as well as my parents' time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, did you did you continue therapy after that? Or ever? Go?
Speaker 2: Yes, most periods of my life I found it useful
Speaker 2: to have a therapist where I'm talking to about, you know,
Speaker 2: what's confusing or what's troubling. I think, you know, I'm
Speaker 2: very lucky to have that. I think, particularly if you
Speaker 2: have a life where some extreme things happen that you know,
Speaker 2: luck is a huge part of that to you know,
Speaker 2: keep your you know, keep you on the ground. A
Speaker 2: good therapist can play an invaluable role there. So, yeah,
Speaker 2: I benefited to this day from those kind of conversations.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I was thinking about in the book. Obviously
Speaker 1: you beautifully introduced us to Kent, and obviously the loss
Speaker 1: of Kent seems to be a place in your memory
Speaker 1: that's naturally so difficult and fuzzy, and you talk about
Speaker 1: in the book how you're not quite sure what your
Speaker 1: parents would have said and how it all felt. And
Speaker 1: I was just wondering if there were any did you
Speaker 1: have support at that time through therapy and other ways
Speaker 1: to deal with that grief?
Speaker 2: No, And I've been looking recently at people like Canison
Speaker 2: Cooper are talking about, Okay, how do you deal with grief?
Speaker 2: And you know, a lot of what they come up
Speaker 2: with is that if you can keep talking about the
Speaker 2: person and you know what you got from them, You're
Speaker 2: kind of honoring them. You know, Kent's parents obviously were
Speaker 2: the most affected by this, because you know, they would
Speaker 2: never have this incredible son and you know who would have,
Speaker 2: no doubt gone off and done incredible things. And I
Speaker 2: remember spending time with them for like a year afterwards,
Speaker 2: and then feeling a bit guilty that as I got busy,
Speaker 2: I didn't do that as much. You know, in the book,
Speaker 2: I actually start out where I've seen Kent's father. I
Speaker 2: run into him right as I'm starting work on the book,
Speaker 2: and you know, we can talk about what a great
Speaker 2: influence he had on me, and you know, so I did.
Speaker 2: I did think that was helpful. But boy, it took
Speaker 2: me a long time because death it was just such
Speaker 2: a shocking thing. I have this idealic childhood other than
Speaker 2: Ken's death, nothing at all traumatic. And we're talking all
Speaker 2: the time, you know a little bit. I reach out
Speaker 2: to Paul to kind of feel Paul Allen, who goes
Speaker 2: on to found Microsoft with me, to step in and
Speaker 2: you know, be that that super close friend. But back then,
Speaker 2: the idea of how you dealt with trauma was mostly hey,
Speaker 2: buck up, you know, get on with things, which after
Speaker 2: a few months I did.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it was at that time you're talking about
Speaker 1: how he actually invited you on the trip he went
Speaker 1: to and like you're talking just before oh, he goes off,
Speaker 1: and then all all of a sudden, you're like, wait
Speaker 1: a minute, we used to talk every day or you know,
Speaker 1: and that it can feel so disassociated from yourself in
Speaker 1: that moment. It feels like, how did you revisit that?
Speaker 1: When did you kind of tend towards working through the
Speaker 1: grief as you wrote the book? Did it feel like
Speaker 1: you were revisiting it?
Speaker 2: But it definitely you know at that high school when
Speaker 2: I built a hall in his name and you know,
Speaker 2: gone out there and talked a little bit about the
Speaker 2: role that Kent played in my evolution. You know, so
Speaker 2: some efforts to honor him, you know. Sadly, you know,
Speaker 2: Paul al and also the other key friend in this
Speaker 2: book died I think about six years ago from cancer,
Speaker 2: and you know he he also was very key at
Speaker 2: getting me on the right path. And there wouldn't be
Speaker 2: you know, without those those two friends. You know, there
Speaker 2: really wouldn't probably wouldn't be anything like Microsoft.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you talk about how Paul was setting your little
Speaker 1: challenges and would ask you to, you know, try this,
Speaker 1: so do that, and then you'd go ahead. And I
Speaker 1: was thinking, how amazing to have a friend that can
Speaker 1: motivate and inspire you in that way. And then I
Speaker 1: was thinking about what you just said when I was
Speaker 1: reading the book, that it felt like you told so
Speaker 1: many stories of so many people in your life that
Speaker 1: are no longer here now, and so grief wasn't just
Speaker 1: about Ken or Paul. It was, you know, just so
Speaker 1: many individuals that you've had life with that you're having
Speaker 1: to process that with what has been helpful for you
Speaker 1: genuinely deeply inside that has led to some sort of
Speaker 1: helpful direction with that grief of writing a book about
Speaker 1: all these wonderful people that you've lost.
Speaker 2: Well, most of my life has been about looking forward
Speaker 2: and Okay, let's get this innovation and let's do it first,
Speaker 2: and you know, whether it's software saving children's lives, which
Speaker 2: is the big foundation thing. And it is a little
Speaker 2: bit unnatural for me to look back because you have
Speaker 2: to say, Okay, how do I describe my relationship with
Speaker 2: my mom in an open, honest way and yet honor her?
Speaker 2: You know how do I talk about camp where I
Speaker 2: don't know if he'd lived, what would have happened, but
Speaker 2: you know, probably you know something that he would have
Speaker 2: very much been a part of it. And so it's
Speaker 2: awkward to look back because you you have to deal
Speaker 2: with these things and talk about you know, you know,
Speaker 2: should have vibes spent more time with his parents afterwards,
Speaker 2: you know, because eventually I stopped doing that. But you know,
Speaker 2: this year I turned seventy. I mentally don't feel like
Speaker 2: I think of a seventy year old, but you know,
Speaker 2: it means, you know, I'm in the final third, no
Speaker 2: doubt of you know what, I've been very lucky to live,
Speaker 2: and so you know, I really did force myself say no,
Speaker 2: there's some lessons out of this, you know, telling people
Speaker 2: how lucky I was, and maybe a few lessons for
Speaker 2: them as as parents or how they navigate success. And
Speaker 2: so once we got going on it, I've enjoyed it
Speaker 2: quite a bit. I have to say, when I'm reviewing
Speaker 2: it and editing it, I'm very slow because I'm you know,
Speaker 2: reliving these things. So it always takes me about three
Speaker 2: times longer to take some pages and edit. Then I
Speaker 2: predict or if it was you know, something like about
Speaker 2: climate or pandemics. You know, I'm I'm pretty fast. There's
Speaker 2: no deep emotion that I have to relive as I'm editing,
Speaker 2: uh something scientific.
Speaker 1: What was your favorite part to relive and what was
Speaker 1: the hardest part to relive?
Speaker 2: Well, everything about the fascination we had and you're like,
Speaker 2: what do we see this thing? These computers are going
Speaker 2: to be amazing, and but no one else saying that,
Speaker 2: so we must be wrong. And you know that contradiction.
Speaker 2: So you know Paul actually I helped him get a
Speaker 2: job out in Boston so he could be out there
Speaker 2: and bugging me that, okay, should we go build a company.
Speaker 2: And then finally when this kit computer, which is so limited,
Speaker 2: but it's the beginning of the revolution, when that comes out,
Speaker 2: then you know Paul's argument we should go and do something.
Speaker 2: He wins because we don't want to be left behind.
Speaker 2: We want to want to be there from the very beginning.
Speaker 2: And then we meet a few people, though it was
Speaker 2: still a very small move, we meet other people like
Speaker 2: Steve wosney k Steve Jobs, who also you know, have
Speaker 2: been infected with this idea of okay, we're on to something.
Speaker 2: That is going to be huge.
Speaker 1: That, Paul, I mean, the reasons that you did to
Speaker 1: find in this book. I was every time I was reading,
Speaker 1: I was just like, how do you have so much detail?
Speaker 1: I was really blown away by the level of detail
Speaker 1: both in the storytelling every moment. But then even there's
Speaker 1: that note that you have that says Steve Jobs called
Speaker 1: was rude, and I was just like, you know, even
Speaker 1: just having that back then, I was laughing as I
Speaker 1: read it, and I was wondering, like, I feel like,
Speaker 1: as from the outside and naturally, and you talk about
Speaker 1: this later on in the book, how we see people
Speaker 1: as this like slither of who they are, and people
Speaker 1: have a public profile and that becomes their brand. And
Speaker 1: if you look at it from the outside, you see
Speaker 1: Steve Jobs and yourself having this competition, envy, jealousy, kind
Speaker 1: of like arch rival, nemesis kind of portrayal. What was
Speaker 1: it actually like, because in the book it comes across
Speaker 1: much more inviting than that as opposed to this kind
Speaker 1: of harsh rivalry.
Speaker 2: Well, I had a fantastic relation with Steve. You know,
Speaker 2: early on I got to do the basic which they
Speaker 2: called applestop that went with every apple to computer so
Speaker 2: I worked with both jobs at Mosniak to get that done.
Speaker 2: Then later, as Steve has a kind of small group
Speaker 2: inside Apple doing the Macintosh, he invited Microsoft to write
Speaker 2: application software a spreadsheet word processor for it, and so
Speaker 2: we actually had as many people as they did, and
Speaker 2: we worked very closely on that project, and he and
Speaker 2: I loved the fact that, you know, that ended up
Speaker 2: being a key Apple product. Then he leaves Apple. I
Speaker 2: talked to him about next but I never thought that
Speaker 2: computer would do that well. So he was disappointed. But
Speaker 2: then when he goes back and he's it's unbelievable, what
Speaker 2: a great job he did. Because Apple went from being
Speaker 2: on the way to dine to being the world's most
Speaker 2: valuable company, and Steve had really matured and it was
Speaker 2: something and I we helped write softa for that. Then
Speaker 2: later when Steve uh is sick, we had about five
Speaker 2: different conversations where we got to talk about kids and
Speaker 2: you know, had computers done well and you know where
Speaker 2: he was pretty thoughtful. It's amazing to me that Steve,
Speaker 2: you know, his skill set and mind other than okay,
Speaker 2: you know Madman leader, you know, drawing people in but
Speaker 2: he his taste in design and user interface and even
Speaker 2: his intuition about people. He was just genius in a
Speaker 2: way you can't explain. He didn't look at code and
Speaker 2: write code, whereas you know, my thing is, hey, I'm
Speaker 2: an engineer. You know, here's the code, let's make it
Speaker 2: faster and smaller. So actually that allowed us to get along,
Speaker 2: because you know what he was super good at I
Speaker 2: was not good at. I envied those just incredible talents
Speaker 2: that he had. And then somebody's he's more singular. You know,
Speaker 2: if you say to me, are there other people like
Speaker 2: you who are great at writing code and conceptionizing? And think, yeah,
Speaker 2: I can name a number of people, including many who
Speaker 2: worked with me, But I don't know somebody who's who
Speaker 2: I say, Oh, yeah, you know he he's just like
Speaker 2: Steve Jobs.
Speaker 1: Well, well that's very Humblivia as well. I mean, that's
Speaker 1: beautiful to hear. What were some of those final conversations
Speaker 1: like that you had with him that were potentially I
Speaker 1: always felt like he was so philosophical and maybe more
Speaker 1: so in those moments.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we did one public appearance, you know, where we
Speaker 2: were being thoughtful about the friendship. What Mosburg had had
Speaker 2: us on stage together, which was definitely a fun thing
Speaker 2: and surprised people because Steve was very harsh. You know,
Speaker 2: he was a you know, he said we were the
Speaker 2: general motors and he was like the Mercedes. But you know,
Speaker 2: all in uh, it was all very fair. Well, we've
Speaker 2: you know, we reflected that computers really hadn't improved education,
Speaker 2: and we're both you and I had given speeches saying,
Speaker 2: of course this will make education, you know, five times better,
Speaker 2: and we're like, wow, we got that one wrong. Maybe
Speaker 2: you know, maybe next round we'll deliver on that promise.
Speaker 2: And you know how unusual it was, even a little
Speaker 2: bit lonely that, you know, when you were so successful
Speaker 2: and then you're having doubts about, okay, are we making
Speaker 2: mistakes here? You know, both of us had had kids
Speaker 2: by then. He was actually you know, of course he
Speaker 2: not only did Apple, he did the Pixar stuff. And
Speaker 2: because that was a realm I'm not in, I you know,
Speaker 2: could sincerely tell him what a brilliant job he did.
Speaker 2: Now partly picking people, but that's you know, kind of amazing, uh,
Speaker 2: you know, now part of Disney, and you know, in
Speaker 2: both a sense of thankfulness, although you know, he was
Speaker 2: very sick and just hoping some new rug would come along,
Speaker 2: and tragically it didn't.
Speaker 1: Yeah, was there a memorable piece of advice or conversation
Speaker 1: where you said something to him or he said something
Speaker 1: to you that has stayed with you?
Speaker 2: Well, the fact that, you know, why were we both
Speaker 2: so competitive and pushing ahead? I think both of us.
Speaker 2: You know, in his case, he's an orphan, so he
Speaker 2: has a more complicated childhood that maybe can explain his zeal.
Speaker 2: I don't have anything like that, you know, even though Kent,
Speaker 2: that's not why. You know, Well, before that, I was
Speaker 2: somehow always, you know, pushing as hard as I could be,
Speaker 2: and you know, I think both of us, you know,
Speaker 2: being thankful for what we'd been able to work on.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, we got more of a front
Speaker 2: row seat and help build this thing. Steve never got
Speaker 2: around to doing philanthropy. Now his widow, Loreen is doing
Speaker 2: great philanthropy, so you know that's I'm sure he'd he'd
Speaker 2: be proud of that, but he didn't get to that stage,
Speaker 2: and I was just getting into that stage. So I
Speaker 2: shared with them a little bit about, Wow, a lot
Speaker 2: of children tie and we don't do much to stop that,
Speaker 2: and that kind of intrigued him, but then he never
Speaker 2: got to pursue it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're reminded me of something I read in Barb
Speaker 1: Eyger's book where he was talking about how there was
Speaker 1: a time when Spielberg, George Lucas they'd all sit together
Speaker 1: and then they'd watch each other's movies and give them feedback.
Speaker 1: And they all felt very confident in doing that because
Speaker 1: they knew their strengths and their uniqueness were so diverse,
Speaker 1: and so they didn't feel threatened that, oh, well, Steve's
Speaker 1: going to steal my idea, or you know, George Luke's
Speaker 1: going to steal my idea, because they felt so confident.
Speaker 1: And it sounds like even for yourself as competitors to
Speaker 1: talk to have a relationship, does that still happen today?
Speaker 1: Do competitives talk? Do they pick up the phone to
Speaker 1: each other? Was that very rare? Because it feels like
Speaker 1: it feels definitely now so less.
Speaker 2: I have a good friendship both with Jeff Bezos and
Speaker 2: Mark Zuckerberg. Elon stands by himself. Maybe that drives everybody
Speaker 2: else together. I don't know. And you know, over time,
Speaker 2: I think Elon, as he gets older, maybe he'll mellow
Speaker 2: out a little bit and you know, probably be an
Speaker 2: incredible philanthropist based on everything else that he's done. But yes,
Speaker 2: there is some good conversation. You know, Larry Ellison is
Speaker 2: now in a phase where he's doing some excellent philanthropy
Speaker 2: and we're all a bit more reflectfile. I mean, hopefully
Speaker 2: by the time you get to seventy been hyper successfully,
Speaker 2: you can you know, relax and let your guard down
Speaker 2: a little bit and you know, laugh about the things
Speaker 2: you got wrong.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what were some of the advice that you've given
Speaker 1: to Mark or especially earlier on his journey or even
Speaker 1: more recently.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, Microsoft, the one big challenge we
Speaker 2: had is we were so successful by the late nineties
Speaker 2: that we got into and I trust difficulties and in retrospect,
Speaker 2: we could have handled that better. And so I've been
Speaker 2: very open with Mark. You know, I used to brag
Speaker 2: that I didn't have an office in DC, and I
Speaker 2: didn't you know, what a great country that I didn't
Speaker 2: have to talk to politicians. Well that was a mistake,
Speaker 2: you know. Now you know, you've got all of them
Speaker 2: going to the inauguration, and you know, so they're not
Speaker 2: they're not making that mistake. Maybe they have they corrected
Speaker 2: too much in another direction? Well, you know his history,
Speaker 2: will will judge se Yeah, I'm you know, it's weird
Speaker 2: to be kind of an elder statesman. Uh.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Sauty who runs Microsoft has done such a brilliant job.
Speaker 2: And in one of my great fears when I left
Speaker 2: Microsoft to go do philanthropy was how bad I would
Speaker 2: feel if it wasn't doing well. And so Steve Balmer
Speaker 2: did a great job and now satchaz with this AI generation.
Speaker 2: So I that's another great blessing is that not only
Speaker 2: the value the stock, but also the fact I can
Speaker 2: just focus on okay, what about polio and malaria? You know,
Speaker 2: knowing that they're taking the company to new heights. You
Speaker 2: know what a great blessing that's been for me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems like I love what you were just
Speaker 1: saying now that you know, maybe there'll be a time
Speaker 1: when Elon turns to philanthropy and you talked about others,
Speaker 1: and it seems that that turning point for view is
Speaker 1: so key, and I feel like you were one of
Speaker 1: the first, not that it wasn't done before, but one
Speaker 1: of the first to do it in a really big
Speaker 1: way to be able to move away from this big
Speaker 1: company that you founded, world changing, generation changing, and then
Speaker 1: turning to that and that service element. To me, I
Speaker 1: was intrigued as to why do you believe that that's
Speaker 1: almost where every one of these people need to go, Like,
Speaker 1: why is it that you believe that turning to a
Speaker 1: life of service and giving back is core for Elon
Speaker 1: or whoever else it may be.
Speaker 2: Well, it's pretty saying this is a world where somebody
Speaker 2: can have over one hundred billion dollars. I mean that
Speaker 2: you know what is that and it's not you know,
Speaker 2: you don't want to just give that to children and
Speaker 2: create some dynasty that's not even a favorite to them.
Speaker 2: You want to give that back. So these are unprecedented fortunes.
Speaker 2: And if you're a great innovator and you know how
Speaker 2: to gather scientists together and think about problems, then there
Speaker 2: are some government just risk averse, and particularly poor countries
Speaker 2: don't have that capacity to think about eradicating malaria or
Speaker 2: solving malnutrition. It there is something that philanthropy can have
Speaker 2: these outsized results in terms of life saved, almost like
Speaker 2: you know a great startup does on the side of innovation.
Speaker 2: So getting those minds to turn those capacities to equity
Speaker 2: to the poorest, both inside the US and outside the US.
Speaker 2: You know, I feel that, you know, we've got the
Speaker 2: golden rule. We're supposed to care about people. There are
Speaker 2: times when it feels like sympathy for poor people outside
Speaker 2: the country's lower today then it's been, But I know
Speaker 2: that'll come back around because of the moral logic there.
Speaker 2: I think, I believe is very very strong, and you know,
Speaker 2: I found it so fulfilling. And I created a group
Speaker 2: called Giving Pledge of people who've committed to give the
Speaker 2: majority of their wealth away and we learn from each other,
Speaker 2: hopefully we inspire each other, and hopefully we change the
Speaker 2: societal expectations that if you have even a modest fortune,
Speaker 2: most of it should combine with your talents and make
Speaker 2: the world a bit more of a fair, fair place.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's absolutely brilliant because I was really
Speaker 1: fortunate when I went out and lived as part of
Speaker 1: my time as a monk in India, we helped put
Speaker 1: together a well the monks were doing already, but I
Speaker 1: got to be a part of it. Helped build a
Speaker 1: daily food distribution service in India that feeds a million
Speaker 1: kids a day and it was all in exactly what
Speaker 1: you're saying, like to help them malnutrition children, and now
Speaker 1: they're even trying to figure out how much protein to
Speaker 1: having it, like trying to figure out the actual composition
Speaker 1: as well. And I remember seeing that so early in
Speaker 1: my life, like I would have gone out there first
Speaker 1: time in my teens and then later on when I
Speaker 1: became a monk in my early twenties. But the reason
Speaker 1: I raise it is because I think it goes back
Speaker 1: to what the point you made earlier about motivation. And
Speaker 1: one thing I've really been trying to figure out with
Speaker 1: the right partner recently is how when I grew up,
Speaker 1: I remember my dad used to read the rich list
Speaker 1: and he'd have the rich list like the Sunday Times
Speaker 1: or whatever it was, and kid, I would see my
Speaker 1: dad and on the back of it would be the
Speaker 1: rich list. And I was thinking, how incredible would it
Speaker 1: be if kids grew up with a service list, and
Speaker 1: how would that change motivation? Because I feel we we
Speaker 1: repeat what we've reward and I feel like we've never
Speaker 1: really seen that case study yet up until maybe you
Speaker 1: know your case study and the people that are following
Speaker 1: with the giving pledge that service becomes a natural part
Speaker 1: of life at that scale. I think we see it
Speaker 1: in smaller communities. You see people with very little actually
Speaker 1: doing so much, but you don't necessarily see it at
Speaker 1: that level. And so I find that changing that drive
Speaker 1: and motivation early on, which it seems like your mother
Speaker 1: had for you, your impact of faith had in you.
Speaker 1: I think that could be huge. I don't know what
Speaker 1: you think about people seeing a service list instead of
Speaker 1: a rich list or whatever the right word is.
Speaker 2: Sadly, the wealth metric is an easier one to compute
Speaker 2: than you know, the impact you've had philanthropically. And part
Speaker 2: of the beauty of philanthropy is there's many causes out there.
Speaker 2: You know, I've tried to think through. Okay, you know,
Speaker 2: since we know how to save lives for one thousand
Speaker 2: dollars per life saved, wow, we better use this money
Speaker 2: as absolutely best we can. And I do think we're
Speaker 2: going to see a rise in philanthropy. I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: these fortunes are almost illegitimate unless they are in a
Speaker 2: very smart way given back. If it's consumption, if it's dynasty,
Speaker 2: I don't think society should feel that good about it.
Speaker 2: And you know, I sat down with Bernie Sunderson, and
Speaker 2: he said no, he would outlaw billionaires. I think that's
Speaker 2: a mistake. I think allowing in America in particular wild innovation,
Speaker 2: wild risk taking is good. But then on the back
Speaker 2: side of that there there should be a strong expectation.
Speaker 2: And I think role models help a lot. You know,
Speaker 2: Warren Buffett in very different industry, very different skill set,
Speaker 2: you know, he's always been a role model. Was the
Speaker 2: one who, even when I was still building the fortune,
Speaker 2: said Okay, your mom is right, you know, and here's
Speaker 2: some books you should read, you know, Carnegie Gospel of Wealth,
Speaker 2: the History of what Rockefeller did you know, because this
Speaker 2: will be an important as important a measure of your
Speaker 2: impact as making the money.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's such a brilliant lesson and wonderful
Speaker 1: won to pass on what I think it was Trump.
Speaker 1: You mentioned it recently that you'd asked to see him
Speaker 1: to have a discussion. Did that meeting have a happened.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I had a very long and actually very impressive
Speaker 2: dinner in terms of he asked good questions. You know.
Speaker 2: I talked about over ten million people are live because
Speaker 2: of US generosity with HIV medicines. Going back to President
Speaker 2: Bush in two thousand and three, and you know, I
Speaker 2: encourage him to keep that as a priority and to
Speaker 2: accelerate innovation. You know, there's an idea that you might
Speaker 2: be able to curates that we're working on, and he
Speaker 2: could help accelerate that. I talked about polio eradication and
Speaker 2: how his leadership and the US government resources are very
Speaker 2: important there. And you know, I'm sure everybody's trying to
Speaker 2: meet with him. The fact he gave me that long
Speaker 2: period of time was actually pretty thoughtful in his questions.
Speaker 2: You know, somebody may come along later and tell him
Speaker 2: to cut that money, but I make the argument as
Speaker 2: best I can that you know, the moral purpose of
Speaker 2: the US and how we're thought of, and the fact
Speaker 2: that a curius is on its way that's worthwhile. You know.
Speaker 2: So this administration is in charge and you know, trying
Speaker 2: to help them. You know, they're willing to cancel old things,
Speaker 2: some of which should maybe be canceled, some of which shouldn't,
Speaker 2: you know, So they're you know, helping direct them, so
Speaker 2: they'll use their open minded US to do different things
Speaker 2: and try and make that come out well. I and
Speaker 2: I think that's that's worth trying.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what what do you see is the moral purpose
Speaker 1: of the United States and the way you mentioned it
Speaker 1: just now.
Speaker 2: Well, we've been the shining light of not only being
Speaker 2: a democracy ourselves and you know, having political opponents respect
Speaker 2: each other and work well together, but also you know,
Speaker 2: saying that even though we're in this very powerful position,
Speaker 2: we won't abuse that position. And Okay, if we allowed ourselves,
Speaker 2: you know, to let other people spend too lettle on
Speaker 2: some things, you know, there's there's a balance there. But
Speaker 2: if you become too much of a bully and you're
Speaker 2: not keeping democracy, which you know, we're reducing the polarization
Speaker 2: and bridging some of these divides, that's a little bit scary.
Speaker 2: You know, democracy is a fragile concept, and particularly the
Speaker 2: time when AI is coming along, and the government will
Speaker 2: have to play a strong role in saying, okay, these
Speaker 2: jobs have been lost, but we're more productive overall, and therefore,
Speaker 2: here's how we help those people. You know, how do
Speaker 2: we keep AI as a primarily beneficial thing versus a
Speaker 2: thing that bad people use and it messes up these
Speaker 2: job markets that I expect the twenty twenty eight presidential
Speaker 2: debate AI policies will be the most important thing. And
Speaker 2: I was a little bit surprised in this election that
Speaker 2: wasn't discussed hardly at all.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's such a good point. I didn't actually think
Speaker 1: of the you're right, it didn't come up a tool. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's fascinating. Well, how I mean, how do you prepare
Speaker 1: for something like that? It would need need to be
Speaker 1: surrounded by the right people and having the pies.
Speaker 2: Well, you've got to educate everyone. You know, you can't
Speaker 2: count on the technologists to shape these things. You know,
Speaker 2: social networking, we're still arguing about what the policy should be.
Speaker 2: And you know the fact that algorithms reward outrageous things
Speaker 2: that even if they're not at all factual, and AI
Speaker 2: heightens all of that. And you know, there's an era
Speaker 2: where getting the politicians to see the technology including all
Speaker 2: this good stuff personal tutors, better medical care, even making
Speaker 2: the government more efficient. You know, this is the most
Speaker 2: promising set of tools because bureaucratic paperwork, AIS actually are
Speaker 2: pretty darn good at at reading and processing those kinds
Speaker 2: of things. So you know, we're on the precipice of
Speaker 2: these AI breakthroughs. The reliability and capabilities. You know, it's
Speaker 2: kind of an extension of what I worked on as
Speaker 2: a child, you know, personal computers, then Internet, then cell
Speaker 2: phones and now AI. But it's because it's super intelligence.
Speaker 2: It's of a different character and will it'll put us
Speaker 2: to the test on how we work together within the
Speaker 2: US and how countries work together.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting because as you're doing about social media there,
Speaker 1: I think Mark Zuckerberg and Joe Rogan was saying that
Speaker 1: they are taking away their fact check is and I
Speaker 1: believe X is doing something similar. What was your take
Speaker 1: on that.
Speaker 2: You know, this whole thing of how you balance free
Speaker 2: speech versus not you know, discouraging people from using vaccines
Speaker 2: when that would be beneficial for them, or even extreme
Speaker 2: stuff like holocaust denial or some bad things there. I'm
Speaker 2: a little bit disappointed that my generation hasn't got a
Speaker 2: clear prescription to how we achieved both the goals free
Speaker 2: speech and yet reasonable discourse that's not misleading people. I mean,
Speaker 2: during the pandemic, you know, the negativity about vaccines, some
Speaker 2: of which you know had me being some you know,
Speaker 2: weird mis behaving actor, you know, which was a lot
Speaker 2: of craziness. You know, clearly over a million people died
Speaker 2: who should have benefited from the vaccine, and next time,
Speaker 2: you know, whether it's an out of control ai or
Speaker 2: the next pandemic, the impact of not getting facts out
Speaker 2: could be much more dramatic. I mean, the next you
Speaker 2: could have a pathogen that was ten times or twenty
Speaker 2: times as fatal as COVID was, particularly once omicron comes along.
Speaker 2: The fatality rate is actually reasonably modest and mostly elder people.
Speaker 2: So politics meets ai H is where a lot of
Speaker 2: our faiths will be determined, even in the next ten years.
Speaker 1: And how do you see a role in that.
Speaker 2: Well, hopefully there's some things I really do understand about that.
Speaker 2: And whether it's giving advice to Microsoft or in my
Speaker 2: foundation work on education and health, you know, using it.
Speaker 2: You know, the place where you have the greatest shortage
Speaker 2: of teachers and doctors is impoort countries in Africa. So
Speaker 2: the fact that these things, you know, can give farmers
Speaker 2: advice and give a pregnant women advice, and look at
Speaker 2: what your kid is eating and say no, you need
Speaker 2: more protein in this diet. And it's essentially free, you know,
Speaker 2: the way that computing was free that I saw when
Speaker 2: I was young. Now we're getting into this even more
Speaker 2: radical thing of intelligen Jens will basically be free. You
Speaker 2: know that that's kind of wild stuff. So I hope
Speaker 2: both with some specific ideas, but then with the lessons
Speaker 2: of a past of where we've been able to shape
Speaker 2: things so far, you know, so that I think personal
Speaker 2: computing has largely been an empowering thing. You know. I
Speaker 2: was reading this book Nexus, where Harai says, then when
Speaker 2: the printing press comes along, it actually is books about
Speaker 2: witches and how you find witches that are the best selling.
Speaker 2: So just thinking because we have new capabilities that will
Speaker 2: necessarily use them at first in a net beneficial way.
Speaker 2: That's sadly a naive concept.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you've verised such a good point that
Speaker 1: even this idea. I loved what you said that you
Speaker 1: said you wish your generation could have figured out how
Speaker 1: to have not have these extreme polarizing conversations but actually
Speaker 1: find this healthy middle ground, whether that be through algorithms,
Speaker 1: whether that be through how we use technology. What is
Speaker 1: it that Why do we keep doing that? It almost
Speaker 1: feels like that's a repeated mistake where we come across
Speaker 1: this horizon of this new world, new technology, new ideas,
Speaker 1: but then we always use it for almost the same
Speaker 1: thing or something that feels you know, insignificant compared to
Speaker 1: what it could do. Where are we going wrong? Why
Speaker 1: can't we get that right?
Speaker 2: Well, it's kind of amazing how wealth humanity is done.
Speaker 2: You know, the you know, the violent death rate over
Speaker 2: hundreds of years have gone down a lot. You know,
Speaker 2: more recently, we've gotten vaccines out to children and gotten
Speaker 2: the annual death rate from ten million a year to
Speaker 2: turn the century down to about five million. Vaccines being
Speaker 2: the biggest, uh part of that, because we got them
Speaker 2: out to most of the world's children. So humanity for
Speaker 2: a being that grew up in these small hunter gatherer groups,
Speaker 2: now you know, we have a big city, complex technology,
Speaker 2: Our ability to get along, you know, in some ways
Speaker 2: has been good. You know, nuclear weapons that when I
Speaker 2: was young, you know, my greatest fear was, Okay, there
Speaker 2: was going to be a nuclear war. And I do
Speaker 2: worry the current generation is that to have that exposure
Speaker 2: to it, so or you know, the Arms Treatise and
Speaker 2: you know, spending too much money on building those weapons.
Speaker 2: I do worry that we've lost track on that one.
Speaker 2: But at least you know, we haven't used those and
Speaker 2: you know, We've done pretty well so far, and you know,
Speaker 2: will we this time? I think this is is probably
Speaker 2: the hardest innovation because you know, we do have human limitations.
Speaker 2: They even I when I see an outrageous article against
Speaker 2: somebody I don't like politically, I'm very tempted to click
Speaker 2: on it and have it tell me, Yeah, he's even
Speaker 2: stupider than you thought, or you know, he this is
Speaker 2: a mistake. You know, we're all subject to that, and
Speaker 2: we do like to form into groups. But you know,
Speaker 2: all of humanity ideally is a group where philanthropically and
Speaker 2: you know, government generosity, we can think of ourselves as
Speaker 2: being part of that, as opposed to much you know,
Speaker 2: our clan or race or nation.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think on a global level it requires what
Speaker 1: you were saying, and on a personal level, it requires
Speaker 1: us to almost be able to evaluate, assimilate, assess, you know,
Speaker 1: have self awareness, allow for self reflection, space for you know,
Speaker 1: the things we don't have time for anymore. Right, you know,
Speaker 1: I was looking into something called the third space theory
Speaker 1: and how in the past you had your home, you
Speaker 1: had work, and then you had church or temple or
Speaker 1: community center, and how those three spaces, that third space
Speaker 1: was a place you could look back on home and
Speaker 1: work and say I could treat my work a little
Speaker 1: bit better, or I could have spoken to my colleague
Speaker 1: a bit better. And that third space allowed that time
Speaker 1: and energy where it was all about reflecting on how
Speaker 1: you could improve. But today we've lost three spaces into
Speaker 1: two into one where we work from home, live at home,
Speaker 1: and the screen is our third space. And so that
Speaker 1: lack of having a physical body or building that gives
Speaker 1: you permission to step back from your whole life, not
Speaker 1: play a role there and actually purvey what's going on
Speaker 1: in your life. We've lost that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a shame. Yeah, you know, the decline of
Speaker 2: religion is a very strong trend. You'd hope there'd be
Speaker 2: a modern religion that takes whatever's put people off and
Speaker 2: yet preserves kind of this golden rule and this okay,
Speaker 2: at a local community level, we're supposed to help each other.
Speaker 2: If you expect government to figure out how to solve things,
Speaker 2: you know, it's too bureaucratic. The local church based groups,
Speaker 2: oh this person needs help, I have extra time, you know,
Speaker 2: is way more effective. And so we expect too much
Speaker 2: from government in a way. So I hope we can
Speaker 2: re energize, you know, perhaps through a type of religious
Speaker 2: modernization or maybe just a community thing is maybe spiritual
Speaker 2: but not labeled as religion. That local engagement where you
Speaker 2: see other people that I think we need more.
Speaker 1: Of it, absolutely, absolutely, Bill. I've got to you for
Speaker 1: a couple more moments, and there's a few things I
Speaker 1: wanted to ask you. One was you talked about how
Speaker 1: in the book, how being the smallest person in the
Speaker 1: room and that status was something that you may be
Speaker 1: hid behind and your insecurity as were hidden behind. And
Speaker 1: I was wondering, is that something that you've been able
Speaker 1: to put down that god and take that away as
Speaker 1: time has moved on. How were you able to do that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've mellowed a little bit, you know, to learn
Speaker 2: how to work with people who are intelligent in different ways,
Speaker 2: you know Microsoft, I had to get marketing salespeople at
Speaker 2: the foundation, you know, people who go out in the
Speaker 2: field and do heroic work, and so my you know
Speaker 2: sort of single view of Okay, math cape capacity is
Speaker 2: you know, this this great thing. I've mellowed and been
Speaker 2: able to bring in different skill sets. But no, I
Speaker 2: I started off being pretty bad at that.
Speaker 1: What were those insecurities that you were hiding.
Speaker 2: Well, you tend to man each other people the way
Speaker 2: you manage yourself. And so when I make a mistake
Speaker 2: in programming her math, I'm very tough on myself, and
Speaker 2: you know, I'm like, you need to spend more time,
Speaker 2: you need to work harder, and it's kind of a
Speaker 2: tough love, don't fool yourself thing. And so my early
Speaker 2: man management style worked for people like me, but not
Speaker 2: as well for other people. And so year by year,
Speaker 2: you know, I did growth Microsoft. A lot of entrepreneurs,
Speaker 2: you know, don't stays as CEO and you have to
Speaker 2: bring in someone else. I wanted to do that, and
Speaker 2: so by bringing in some other people, I got better
Speaker 2: at that. I would say moving over to the Foundation
Speaker 2: was another level of how you bring in different mix
Speaker 2: of talent. And so yeah, I'm trying. I'm still trying.
Speaker 2: I'll be better a year from now.
Speaker 1: Well, I was most excited that you said there's still
Speaker 1: two more books coming after this one to talk about
Speaker 1: the different areas of your life. And I really enjoyed
Speaker 1: this one so much. I'm so excited for people to
Speaker 1: read it, to get to know you better, to get
Speaker 1: to know the people that have changed your life for
Speaker 1: the better and allow you to do all the incredible
Speaker 1: phenomenal work you do today. And I honestly am so
Speaker 1: inspired by the work you do today. And I really
Speaker 1: hope that I can be involved in some small ways.
Speaker 1: So I thank you deeply.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, It's been fantastic.
Speaker 1: It means the world. Bill. We end every episode with
Speaker 1: a final five. These questions have to be asked in
Speaker 1: onst in one word to one sentence maximum. So Bill
Speaker 1: gates these of your final five. The first question is
Speaker 1: what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?
Speaker 2: You know, finding what you really enjoyed doing and hopefully
Speaker 2: there's some job that has that as opposed to know
Speaker 2: what jobs pay well or other people push you to.
Speaker 2: If you're doing something you really enjoy it, it's hard
Speaker 2: to beat.
Speaker 1: And you found that early.
Speaker 2: I was super lucky on that. You know, computers were
Speaker 2: there right when I needed them.
Speaker 1: Second question, what is the worst advice you've ever heard
Speaker 1: or received.
Speaker 2: People will tell you not to take risks, and it's
Speaker 2: very well intentioned, but there are contexts. You know, when
Speaker 2: you're young, you know, like people say, okay, it must
Speaker 2: have been scared to drop out, Not really. I mean
Speaker 2: I could have gone back. You know, there's no flesh
Speaker 2: wounds involved in failure, you know, so failure's you know,
Speaker 2: probably a better teacher and more of an okay thing.
Speaker 2: And I think this whole safety thing, physical safety, you know,
Speaker 2: emotional safety in many cases that we've gone too far.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but did dropping out that at that time feel
Speaker 1: like a big risk.
Speaker 2: No, it did not. Even the first time I felt
Speaker 2: it was when I was hiring people who moved their
Speaker 2: family and they had kids, and I was like, if
Speaker 2: I can't pay this guy his check, this is rude.
Speaker 2: You know, he's got a real problem, and I'm kind
Speaker 2: of implicitly promising him I've got this thing figured out.
Speaker 2: So that scared me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, was that There's a scene in the Social Network
Speaker 1: where you're on stage and Mark Zuckerberg's in your in
Speaker 1: the auditorium, and then they leave and they say the
Speaker 1: speaker just said the next Bill Gates could be sitting
Speaker 1: in this room, and then Mark goes, that is Bill Gates?
Speaker 1: Is that true?
Speaker 2: That is absolutely true? Mark and I have laughed about
Speaker 2: that a lot, that our experience at Harvard dropping out
Speaker 2: of Harvard, you know, telling people that Hey, we saw
Speaker 2: something other people didn't see, very very similar.
Speaker 1: Question number three, what would you say is the most
Speaker 1: important problem desmised people on the planet should be solving
Speaker 1: right now?
Speaker 2: There's many candidates, you know, making sure we don't use
Speaker 2: nuclear weapons, avoid bioterrorism, climate change, caring for the poorest,
Speaker 2: which we're kind of losing that, But I would say
Speaker 2: shaping AI has for me risen to the top of
Speaker 2: that list. We need to do all those. We can't
Speaker 2: just skip, you know, any of those. But this one
Speaker 2: is is going to be a very big deal in
Speaker 2: the in the next decade.
Speaker 1: And what would be your advice to the biggest business
Speaker 1: leaders in the world in regard to that?
Speaker 2: Well, I don't think you can count on them. Their
Speaker 2: competitive framework is to go full speed, and so only
Speaker 2: government's in a position to say, wait a minute, slowed down,
Speaker 2: you know, for the good stuff. You want them to
Speaker 2: lower the price and get it done sooner, and so
Speaker 2: we can't. Although yes, they should be part of the
Speaker 2: dialogue and they're humans and citizens too, but you can't
Speaker 2: count on them because the metric for them is to
Speaker 2: go full speed.
Speaker 1: Question number four, what is your favorite mental health habit?
Speaker 2: You know It's a very big deal for me to
Speaker 2: get time reading and thinking by myself, whether it's on
Speaker 2: a walk or going driving. When I would see you
Speaker 2: at Microsoft, I took two full weeks think weeks one
Speaker 2: every six months, where I would just go off by
Speaker 2: myself and think, okay, is Microsoft on track? What are
Speaker 2: the trends? Towards the end, I'd write a memo which
Speaker 2: actually was kind of valuable as we navigated the twists
Speaker 2: and turns like when the internet comes along, or you know,
Speaker 2: software is not reliable enough. You know, I need that
Speaker 2: time to think. Even though I love quick thinking, you know,
Speaker 2: being in a meeting and spotting a mistake. Most of
Speaker 2: my good work has come from the kind of slow
Speaker 2: thinking where I'm off being reflective and maybe coming up
Speaker 2: with some non obvious ideas. You know, maybe it's a
Speaker 2: little bit my you know, being on the spectrum. I
Speaker 2: need that refreshment, you know. And I see my schedule
Speaker 2: with lots of social interaction for a week, then I'll
Speaker 2: try and make sure the next week has a little
Speaker 2: bit less of that. But you know, to maintain creativity,
Speaker 2: you have to have some calmness and be not behind.
Speaker 2: If you feel like you're behind like you turn on
Speaker 2: your email like, ah, oh, I'm late. You know that
Speaker 2: that your creativity gets gets squeezed out one of the
Speaker 2: first things.
Speaker 1: And does that think we need to be in nature?
Speaker 1: Are you away from everything? Is it? Are you simply thinking?
Speaker 1: Are you taking books? Are you janeling?
Speaker 2: Or is it I'm taking books to read, but I'm
Speaker 2: also taking very long walks on your own and just
Speaker 2: thinking about things. And I love I take a tablet
Speaker 2: of paper and write things down quite a bit. And
Speaker 2: you know, I'm pretty religious. I'm not taking phone calls.
Speaker 2: I'm not browsing the news. You know, the news can wait,
Speaker 2: you know, And I'm off by myself twenty twenty four
Speaker 2: hours that whole time. Somebody can stick some food in.
Speaker 2: But and you know that's kind of extreme. You know,
Speaker 2: there's people like Kerrari who meditate kind of an unbelievable one.
Speaker 2: I almost envy him. I don't think I would go
Speaker 2: that far. But we should be more in his direction
Speaker 2: than we are.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. And what's the book you've gifted most? Actually,
Speaker 1: I'm intrigued because you're such a big reader. You recommend
Speaker 1: so many great books. What's the book you've gifted to people?
Speaker 1: Close to you the most.
Speaker 2: There's a Stephen Pinker book called Better Angels of Our
Speaker 2: Nature that talks about even though in the short run
Speaker 2: we see how tough things are. If we zoom out
Speaker 2: a little bit and say, okay, two hundred years ago,
Speaker 2: to be a woman, to be gay, you know, thirty
Speaker 2: percent of child children die. You know, lifespan is less
Speaker 2: than fifty years. You know that's not saying there's a
Speaker 2: guarantee that those bad things we talked about won't happen.
Speaker 2: But people are a little overwrought and saying, okay, you
Speaker 2: know this approach to government is failing. Maybe we should
Speaker 2: try something radical like not you know, being fully democratic.
Speaker 2: I'm like, whoa wait a minute here, Yes, we need
Speaker 2: to feel bad about the things we're not doing, but
Speaker 2: we also need to have a perspective the system of
Speaker 2: scientific inquiry and democracy and widening our circle of care,
Speaker 2: you know, beyond our family, clan nation, as we discover
Speaker 2: new things and we can share more resources. That really
Speaker 2: is working. You know, it sounds naive to say that,
Speaker 2: but you know, the books that really go through that,
Speaker 2: I find, you know, a guide how I think about
Speaker 2: the world.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Fifth and final question, if you could create one
Speaker 1: law that everyone in the world had to follow. What
Speaker 1: would it be.
Speaker 2: Well, if you look at all these religious texts, you know,
Speaker 2: I'd say the the thing they all eventually come back
Speaker 2: to is the Golden rule, which is to treat people
Speaker 2: how you would like to be treated. You know, I mean,
Speaker 2: say that you're about to be born, and you don't
Speaker 2: know if you're going to be born a woman or
Speaker 2: in Africa. This is a thing that Warren Buffett taught me.
Speaker 2: You know what, you get to construct the world and
Speaker 2: how fair it is, and then you we will randomly
Speaker 2: pick and you will be born in some place in
Speaker 2: some way. And you know, I think the construct that
Speaker 2: would guide the world you'd want for that is very
Speaker 2: much going back to that Golden rule. Not okay, let's
Speaker 2: win wars, you know, let's outcompete, or you know, have
Speaker 2: more money or resources than other people. And so it's
Speaker 2: kind of a it's one of the few universal truths
Speaker 2: that we should have that guide our behavior.
Speaker 1: I love that, Bill, Thank you so much for your
Speaker 1: time went on purpose today and genuinely say grateful for
Speaker 1: your time and energy. It was thrilling to talk to you.
Speaker 1: And I love getting an early copy of the book
Speaker 1: and being ahead of the world on it. So thank
Speaker 1: you so much.
Speaker 2: Well, you know I've loved our conversation, so look forward
Speaker 2: to more.
Speaker 1: Thank you. If you enjoyed this podcast, you're going to
Speaker 1: love my conversation with Michelle Obama where she opens up
Speaker 1: on how to stay with your partner when they're changing,
Speaker 1: and the four check ins you should be doing in
Speaker 1: your relationship. We also talk about how to deal with
Speaker 1: relationships when they're under stressed. If you're going through something
Speaker 1: right now with your partner or someone you're seeing, this
Speaker 1: is the episode for you.
Speaker 3: No wonder our kids are struggling. We have a new
Speaker 3: technology and we've just taken it in hookline and Sinker,
Speaker 3: and we have to be mindful.
Speaker 2: For our kids.
Speaker 3: They'll just be thumbing through this stuff. You know, their
Speaker 3: mind's never sleeping.