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Speaker 1: Hey everyone, It's Jay Schetty and I'm thrilled to announce

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Speaker 1: my podcast tour. For the first time ever. You can

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Speaker 1: see my on Purpose podcast live and in person. Join

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Speaker 1: me in a city near you for meaningful, insightful conversations

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Speaker 1: with surprise guests. It could be a celebrity, top wellness expert,

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Speaker 1: or a CEO or business leader. We'll dive into experiences

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Speaker 1: designed to inspire growth, spark learning, and build real connections.

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Speaker 1: I can't wait to see you there. Tickets are on

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Speaker 1: sell now. Head to Jayshetty dot me and get yours today.

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Speaker 2: This is a world where somebody can have over one

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Speaker 2: hundred billion dollars. What is that These fortunes are almost

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Speaker 2: illegitimate unless in a very smart way given back. One

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Speaker 2: of the biggest names in business, tech, and philanthropy.

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Speaker 1: Exploring and investing in innovative solutions.

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Speaker 2: To some of the world's toughest problems, Bill Gates. Starting

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Speaker 2: with Microsoft, where I had monomaniacal focus, giving up weekends

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Speaker 2: and vacation wasn't some big sacrifice. I loved it. The

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Speaker 2: idea that everybody would use a computer was somewhat ridiculed,

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Speaker 2: so it was kind of fun say no, no, this

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Speaker 2: is really going to be mainstream.

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Speaker 1: If you look at it from the outside, you see

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Speaker 1: Steve Jobs and yourself having this competition, envy, jealousy. What

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Speaker 1: was actually like?

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Speaker 2: He said, we were the General Motors and he was

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Speaker 2: Mercedes Social Networking. We're still arguing about what the policy

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Speaker 2: should be. Algorithms reward outrageous things, even if they're not

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Speaker 2: at all factual. I've always underestimated how incredible my father was.

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Speaker 2: He would say, hey, I'm sorry, I worked so hard,

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Speaker 2: and I'd say, no, no, no, that was fine. I feel

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Speaker 2: lucky that he lived as long as he did. It

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Speaker 2: brings tears to my eyes because he was incredible.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember one of the final conversations you had

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Speaker 1: within the number one Health and Well in his podcast,

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Speaker 1: Jay Shetty Bill Gates, Welcome to on Purpose. Thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for this opportunity. I'm so grateful, great.

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Speaker 2: To be here.

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Speaker 1: I have to start by saying that when I was

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Speaker 1: reading source code, I believe I got an unbelievable perspective

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Speaker 1: and a deep sense of gratitude that I didn't have

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Speaker 1: before for how hard it is to build code, software

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Speaker 1: and computers. And I really feel that my generation and

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Speaker 1: beyond have often taken for granted these inventions, and so

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to start by saying that's what took

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Speaker 1: me by surprise, and I was blown away as to

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Speaker 1: the challenges of getting access to even using a computer,

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Speaker 1: through being given permission, through to all the other battles

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Speaker 1: that came with that journey. I was really really amazed

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Speaker 1: and taken aback. So thank you for that. How does

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Speaker 1: that feel hearing that.

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Speaker 2: The idea that everybody would use computer was somewhat you know, ridiculed.

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Speaker 2: So it was kind of fun to be part of

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Speaker 2: a movement saying no, no, this is really going to

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Speaker 2: be mainstream. We're going to make them cheaper and better.

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Speaker 2: And you know the fact that I was lucky enough

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Speaker 2: through my experience to be in on that secret and

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Speaker 2: to get to kind of lead the way, you know,

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Speaker 2: seeing that software would be the missing piece, I couldn't

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Speaker 2: have been more lucky. And you know, now that's given

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Speaker 2: me a lot of resources to to give back.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, and that's why I wanted to ask you. The

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Speaker 1: first question was what would you say is the most

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Speaker 1: recent invention that you've genuinely been impressed by? Because I

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Speaker 1: imagine that's quite hard for you, But is there a

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Speaker 1: consumer product or something that really took you by surprising

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Speaker 1: that you would say impressed you.

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Speaker 2: Well, my whole career has been about innovation, whether it's

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Speaker 2: Microsoft with software and now all this incredible AI advance.

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Speaker 2: I do work on climate, which you know, we're trying

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Speaker 2: to come up with innovation that can make clean products

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Speaker 2: cost as little as the dirty puts so we can

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Speaker 2: get them out there. And then my full time work

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Speaker 2: is the Gates Foundation, where we're always coming up with

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Speaker 2: new vaccines, new drugs. You know, we're even trying to

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Speaker 2: come up with a way to cure HIV so you

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Speaker 2: don't have to keep taking the medicine there. You know,

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Speaker 2: I'd say the current work to understand why kids get

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Speaker 2: malnourished is the thing I'm most excited about. Forty percent

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Speaker 2: of kids in Africa don't develop their body or their

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Speaker 2: brain and understanding, okay, what is it. They're getting enough calories,

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Speaker 2: but there's something about that mix that you know, they

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Speaker 2: never achieve their potential, either for themselves individually or for

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Speaker 2: the country that they're part of. So I've gotten to

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Speaker 2: be it's there's so many cool innovations and that the

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Speaker 2: pace of all of that is going faster today than

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Speaker 2: ever in my lifetime, you know. So it's a real

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Speaker 2: privilege to work with innovators and back some of the

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Speaker 2: them on things like malaria or malnutrition, which the market

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Speaker 2: doesn't get resources to do that work. And you know,

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Speaker 2: that's where philanthropy can make a very dramatic difference.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, And as you were saying, discovering your potential was

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Speaker 1: something that really happened for you on a lot of

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Speaker 1: hikes that you went on in the book. And I

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Speaker 1: loved learning about how being outdoors with such an integral

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Speaker 1: part of your childhood and growing up. And I was wondering,

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Speaker 1: if you could go on any hike in the world

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Speaker 1: anyway right now, where would it be, Where would you

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Speaker 1: choose to be.

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Speaker 2: I take a lot of vacations near beaches, and I

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Speaker 2: enjoy whoever i'm with, getting you know, two or three

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Speaker 2: hours walking on the beach. You know, that's a great

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Speaker 2: way to get updates from my kids and have them

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Speaker 2: share what they're doing. I will say the forest hiking

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Speaker 2: that I did as a child up in the Seattleeriot's

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Speaker 2: called the Olympic Peninsula. There, there's just unbelievable hikes, and

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Speaker 2: even though in that group of boys, I was the

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Speaker 2: lead capable hiker and I would always vote for the

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Speaker 2: shortest hike and going home the soonest just the camaraderie

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Speaker 2: and the kind of beauty, you know, was so stunning.

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Speaker 2: I really have to get back and do some of those.

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Speaker 2: I haven't. I haven't done a lot of that, uh,

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Speaker 2: since I was I was young.

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Speaker 1: Whoa, whoa, Is it just a lack of time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd gotten myself so busy. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 2: starting with Microsoft, where I had a monomaniacal focus, you know,

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Speaker 2: kind of giving up weekends and vacation because I wanted

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Speaker 2: to move faster. It wasn't some big sacrifice. I loved,

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Speaker 2: loved it, but it meant that I shut a lot

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Speaker 2: of other things out. And then only when I retired

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Speaker 2: from Microsoft did I get to go back and take

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Speaker 2: a little more time off. And you know, see all

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Speaker 2: the other great things going on in the world, including

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Speaker 2: all this health stuff. That is the thing I spend

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Speaker 2: the most time on Now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's so much conversation today I feel about life balance.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that that sacrifice and that dedicated time

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Speaker 1: was necessary for the levels of success or would it

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Speaker 1: have been possible in another way.

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Speaker 2: No. I think for Microsoft to be successful, even though

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Speaker 2: we were the first we and we had a broader

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Speaker 2: concept of software than the other companies, we needed to

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Speaker 2: be what I would call hardcore. And you know, in

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Speaker 2: that case, the work is what I want to do.

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Speaker 2: It's it's not like, oh God, you know, I've got

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Speaker 2: to earn a little bit more money. It's you know,

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Speaker 2: this is the thing that throughout my childhood I was

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Speaker 2: so lucky, you know, because of my parents and some

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Speaker 2: early friends. The school I went to, I had these

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Speaker 2: exposures to computers that were very rare, and so I had,

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Speaker 2: you know, all these thousands of hours of programming experience

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Speaker 2: and great feedback on okay, how do you do it

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Speaker 2: better from the very best adults. I got to see

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Speaker 2: what was coming and the idea of being part of

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Speaker 2: making that real. You know, I woke up and said, okay,

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Speaker 2: I'd love to get to work. My younger self could

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Speaker 2: stay in you know, days at a time. I don't

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Speaker 2: do that now. But then it was just in no

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Speaker 2: way a hardship because I felt we were part of

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Speaker 2: something that was would be very empowering and you know,

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Speaker 2: competitively I wanted us to be the ones to make

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Speaker 2: it happen.

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Speaker 1: One of your favorite quotes that I've always loved is

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Speaker 1: you've said, we overestimate what we can do in one year,

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Speaker 1: and we underestimate what we can do in ten yea

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Speaker 1: is at the beginning, did you overall underestimate yourself?

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Speaker 2: Well, people when they would hear us say a computer

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Speaker 2: on every desk and in every home running Microsoft software,

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Speaker 2: they were like, you kids are really out of it.

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Speaker 2: I mean every desk, every home. You know, what would

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Speaker 2: people do with these things? But because the chips were

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Speaker 2: improving exponentially, doubling every couple of years, it allowed us

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Speaker 2: to think of the computing part as essentially being free.

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Speaker 2: And so the only thing that would hold you back

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Speaker 2: is you know, okay, can you help people with photographs?

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Speaker 2: Can you help them with documents? Can you help them

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Speaker 2: stay in touch with people far away? Or find information?

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Speaker 2: And we knew over time that as these things got better,

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Speaker 2: it would would be part of the mainstream. And so

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Speaker 2: as people sort of came around to that, they were like, Wow,

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Speaker 2: whether it's at work or at home, this is just

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Speaker 2: part of how people do things. And we wanted, you know,

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Speaker 2: to get it out to everyone, you know, students everywhere,

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Speaker 2: you know, even in the countries that are low income.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned your parents earlier, and when I was reading

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Speaker 1: this book, I felt like they are such a big

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Speaker 1: paw of this book and the storytelling and the incredible

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Speaker 1: experience is a memory. And one of the things you

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Speaker 1: mentioned is you say that they felt that they accepted

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Speaker 1: that you were different from your peers. And I was wondering,

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Speaker 1: in what way, how did you know that they'd seen

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Speaker 1: that and accepted that.

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Speaker 2: Well, definitely confounded them that Sometimes I was pushing back

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Speaker 2: in a pretty tough way, you know, as though you know,

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Speaker 2: we were in some competition. They would hear from teachers,

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Speaker 2: and they were very good about staying in touch with

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Speaker 2: my teachers. You know. Some teachers would say this kid

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Speaker 2: should be skipped ahead one or two grades. Some teachers

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Speaker 2: would say this kid should be held back. You know,

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Speaker 2: so that kind of is what you know, make up

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Speaker 2: your mind. You know. I had one experience where I

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Speaker 2: worked on a report about the state of Delaware and

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Speaker 2: I ended up doing this two hundred page report with

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Speaker 2: the great recover. Well, the other kids turned in you know,

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Speaker 2: five or ten page reports, and it was very embarrassing

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Speaker 2: that I thought, Wow, did I you know, kind of

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Speaker 2: overdo this thing? And yet you know that ability to concentrate,

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Speaker 2: you know, would hold me in good stead in terms

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Speaker 2: of reading long books and applying that concentration and curiosity

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Speaker 2: first to cards, then to math, and then finally to

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Speaker 2: software and how would software change the world. But you know,

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Speaker 2: they never were quite sure what to do, and you know,

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Speaker 2: sending me to a therapist actually ended up being brilliant,

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Speaker 2: and sending me to a very nice private school where

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Speaker 2: the classes were a bit smaller and you know I

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Speaker 2: could get I always got an unfair share of attention

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Speaker 2: from the teachers. You know, we'd have like fifteen people

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Speaker 2: in the class, but you know, almost twenty percent of

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Speaker 2: the teacher's time in terms of telling me what to

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Speaker 2: read or you know, marking my writing up. You know,

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Speaker 2: I got an unfair share partly because my curiosity or

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Speaker 2: energy level you know, did mark me out in both

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Speaker 2: positive and negative ways.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. What influence do you think doctor Christie actually had

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Speaker 1: on you? Because therapy had that time and in your

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Speaker 1: early edge, looking back on it, now, what do you

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Speaker 1: feel it gave you? What skills did they give you?

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Speaker 2: Well, it's very It was a very rare thing. In fact,

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Speaker 2: the other people coming to him were these couples that

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Speaker 2: were having arguments, and so in a I hope privacy

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Speaker 2: appropriate way, he would kind of give me a sense

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Speaker 2: of that. He gave me a few IQ tasks. He

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Speaker 2: you know, had me read about Freud and all these things.

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Speaker 2: But slowly, but surely he was saying to me that

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Speaker 2: fighting your parents really has no purpose. I mean, they

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Speaker 2: really do love you, they're on your side. You should

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Speaker 2: apply your energy towards other things. And you know, eventually

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Speaker 2: he made me feel kind of foolish, like, yeah, why

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Speaker 2: was I taking these what I thought were kind of

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Speaker 2: arbitrary rules or where my mom would say you should

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Speaker 2: respect me and I'd say, well, you know, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: And a little bit as I figured out I could

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Speaker 2: understand things like playing cards as well, are better than

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Speaker 2: my grandmother, or you know, I could read books had

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Speaker 2: complicated things. I was a bit showing off to saying,

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Speaker 2: because my cognition is good, why should you be able

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Speaker 2: to set arbitrary rules. But anyway, I'm embarrassed when I

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Speaker 2: think about it now. But doctor Crussey was so encouraging

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Speaker 2: to me in general, and then got across. He probably

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Speaker 2: understood at the first meeting that I had to be

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Speaker 2: convinced to make this change. But he did it in

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Speaker 2: this super nice way. And so the idea that no,

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Speaker 2: my parents, yes they're imperfect, but wow, they're on my side,

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Speaker 2: that that changed my behavior.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and did he as had these beautiful ways of

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Speaker 1: you said he never belittled you, And I believe he

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Speaker 1: used to mention to you going to win or he

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Speaker 1: wanted you to win. And I feel like that's what

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Speaker 1: did those things do because it's almost like you're saying

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Speaker 1: he made you have this almost there's this realization that

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Speaker 1: you were wrong. But it seemed like he did it

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Speaker 1: in a very graceful, elegant way, Like how did how

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Speaker 1: did he do that?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely? They you know, I thought, oh, I need to

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Speaker 2: be so clever to win, and I'm going to apply

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Speaker 2: all this energy to win. And so the idea when

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Speaker 2: he says, no, you're going to win, it's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I see, it's not because I'm clever, It's because it's

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Speaker 2: as you know, they they care for me and they're trying,

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Speaker 2: you know, to help me, and you know their main

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Speaker 2: concern is am I ready? You know? To go out

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Speaker 2: in the world and if I have capabilities, will I

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Speaker 2: develop those and use those? And you know, my mom

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Speaker 2: always had a way of kind of pushing me to

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Speaker 2: do more. I said to her once, you know, you

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Speaker 2: told me to go to the heart of school and

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Speaker 2: she said, no, I never actually said that, And I said, well,

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Speaker 2: wait a minute. When other parents would come over, you'd

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Speaker 2: say how bad they must feel that their kid didn't

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Speaker 2: go to college or something like that. So, okay, it

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Speaker 2: was indirect, but you know it was kind of there.

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Speaker 2: So you know, my mom certainly encouraged me, you know,

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Speaker 2: and sometimes I felt overwhelmed by that. But my eventual

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Speaker 2: reaction to just okay, try to outdo any levels she

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Speaker 2: set and ended up working out.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, what was something that you didn't value about

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Speaker 1: your mom at that time that now looking back, you say, no,

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Speaker 1: I do value that.

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Speaker 2: Well, things like table manners. I'm like, well, you know, okay,

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Speaker 2: I have to take the catch up and put it

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Speaker 2: in a bowl and then do this, and I'm not

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Speaker 2: supposed to put my elbows on the table. And you know,

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Speaker 2: she was just you know, trying to make sure I

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Speaker 2: was civilized a little bit. You know, what I would

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Speaker 2: wear and they definitely got me engaged with adults. You know,

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Speaker 2: my social skills were slow to develop with people other

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Speaker 2: than a few boys like myself, but with adults because

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Speaker 2: they were having them over and I, you know, God,

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Speaker 2: so I could ask those adults to talk about what

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Speaker 2: they were doing. That was really valuable to me, because

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Speaker 2: I ended up through that and through one of my

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Speaker 2: early friends, having more of an outlook of okay, where

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Speaker 2: am I headed at quite a young age, which was

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Speaker 2: super helpful.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so funny. As I was reading the book,

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Speaker 1: I was reminded of so when I graduated from college,

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Speaker 1: I didn't go to my graduation ceremony because I left

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Speaker 1: to become a monk, and my parents were They were

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Speaker 1: very kind and accepting of my decision. But my mother

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Speaker 1: still has this feeling that she doesn't have a picture

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Speaker 1: of me graduating wearing the hat and you know, holding

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Speaker 1: my certificate. And I remember I was having the same

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Speaker 1: feeling that you were where my mom would always may

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Speaker 1: say to me, Oh, when I go to my friend's houses,

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Speaker 1: they're telling them about all the jobs that their kids

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Speaker 1: are doing and the apartment they just moved into, and

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Speaker 1: you're just there being a monk, like you know, she'd

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Speaker 1: say that to me, and it was always that kind

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Speaker 1: of feeling, like that sense of pressure to live up

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Speaker 1: to something she wanted me to do, even though there

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Speaker 1: was love and there was acceptance and I was wondering

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Speaker 1: for you, like you said it yourself. She was such

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Speaker 1: a powerhouse. She had such high expectations. When did you

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Speaker 1: feel that you reached that or do you feel you've

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Speaker 1: reached that?

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Speaker 2: Well? Unfortunately, my mom passed away in her early sixties.

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Speaker 2: She got breast cancer, and so I had gotten married

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Speaker 2: six months before she passed this away, so she never

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Speaker 2: got to see that. I tried to follow her example

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Speaker 2: as a parent. She never got to see the foundation

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Speaker 2: get going. My dad actually ran the foundation and got

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Speaker 2: it off to a fantastic start, so he was involved.

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Speaker 2: But her sort of dictate about, Okay, if you are successful,

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Speaker 2: you have to give back. It's a shame that she

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Speaker 2: didn't get to kind of participate and see that. I'm

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Speaker 2: following what she said despite all the times I pushed

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Speaker 2: back on her.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, do you still feel that today that it's almost

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Speaker 1: like she had voices in your head and she's present

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Speaker 1: in that way. Oh?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. The you know, the sense I have of okay,

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Speaker 2: I've got to do this and do that. Well, that's

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Speaker 2: you know, really came from her. My dad more set

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Speaker 2: the example of being calm and thoughtful, you know, also great,

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Speaker 2: great values. But much you know, it wasn't through the interaction.

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Speaker 2: He would you know, leave pretty early. And if my

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Speaker 2: mom had to escalate to call him in, you knew

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Speaker 2: you better give in because that was kind of the

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Speaker 2: ultimate thing. But yeah, so each in their own way,

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Speaker 2: he through example, her through high expectations, deserve a lot

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Speaker 2: of credit. And you know, part of this book is

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Speaker 2: to really honor them. And uh, two of the young

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Speaker 2: friends I had who set me on a a great path.

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363
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Speaker 1: make sure you use the code on Purpose. I was wondering,

364
00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,560
Speaker 1: what was your biggest realization about your father from writing

365
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:32,080
Speaker 1: this book.

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Speaker 2: It's weird. I've always underestimated how incredible my father was.

367
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Speaker 2: His values, even the exchange with my mom. You know,

368
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:46,439
Speaker 2: before they get married. His One of his dreams was

369
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Speaker 2: to be a federal judge, and he eventually that was

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Speaker 2: offered to him. And because his law firm would have

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00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,760
Speaker 2: had great difficulties, he said, now, I that would hurt

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Speaker 2: my colleagues, so I'm not going to do that. And

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Speaker 2: I had written him a note saying, gosh, I hope

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Speaker 2: it's not because she had to pay all that tuition,

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Speaker 2: that you're not getting to do this, and I'd forgotten

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Speaker 2: he'd written me back such a nice note. So, you know,

377
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Speaker 2: in digging through, I'm amazed we end up keeping those things.

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Speaker 2: It was so touching to me. Now, I you know,

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Speaker 2: I'll spend my whole life trying to live up to

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Speaker 2: the example.

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Speaker 1: He said, what was it like finding that reply? Forgetting

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Speaker 1: that he had replied, I mean no.

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Speaker 2: Well, certainly it brings tears to my eyes, because you know,

384
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Speaker 2: he was incredible, and towards the end of his life

385
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Speaker 2: we did get a little more direct, you know, where

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Speaker 2: he would say, hey, I'm sorry, I work so hard,

387
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Speaker 2: and I'd say, no, no, no, that was fine to be

388
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Speaker 2: doing that, you know. And so instead of things being

389
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Speaker 2: sort of through my mom when she was gone, he

390
00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,399
Speaker 2: had to build up that communication in a way it

391
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,600
Speaker 2: was far more intimate. You know, I feel lucky that

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Speaker 2: he lived as long as he did.

393
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Speaker 1: D How does that as that relationship evolves, Like it

394
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 1: felt like when I was reading source Code, I felt

395
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Speaker 1: like your father was there to always save you in

396
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Speaker 1: these moments, like he'd pick up the phone, he'd be

397
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Speaker 1: involved in, you know, talking to you and your friends,

398
00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:15,800
Speaker 1: like he was there in these very pivotal moments that

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Speaker 1: felt like almost professional support from him, of course based

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00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:22,080
Speaker 1: on his intelligence and background as well, But it sounds

401
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,639
Speaker 1: like that evolved to a much more emotive, intimate space

402
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Speaker 1: like that. What does that look like for a father

403
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Speaker 1: and a son across all those years?

404
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Speaker 2: You know, and when I was going off to college,

405
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Speaker 2: you know, I'd call my parents every couple of weeks,

406
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 2: but you know, you couldn't like text and send photos

407
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 2: and so but I always knew, you know, that they

408
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 2: were supportive. And so I actually got into a little

409
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,359
Speaker 2: bit of trouble where I'd taken my colleagues into the

410
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Speaker 2: computer center and done some of the early Microsoft basic work,

411
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Speaker 2: and the college as they filled position to supervise that

412
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Speaker 2: computer center, like wow, did you break the rules? And

413
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Speaker 2: you know, my dad was always so kind of wise.

414
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Speaker 2: You know, when I ever, it was like, oh my god,

415
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 2: I may have screw it up here. I better get

416
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Speaker 2: on top of this. You know, that's a time where

417
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,480
Speaker 2: I call him in and his advice is very helpful.

418
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Speaker 2: You know. Then later we have a customer who's not

419
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:26,840
Speaker 2: paying us and our very first customer, another case where

420
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Speaker 2: my dad encouraged me to stay the course. So it

421
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Speaker 2: wasn't in those days that I talked to him a lot,

422
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 2: but that when I was in trouble, he was the

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Speaker 2: one person, you know who was so sophisticated, and you

424
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Speaker 2: know on my side that his advice really did help

425
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:53,479
Speaker 2: me at a lot of key turning points. And you know,

426
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Speaker 2: then later when we have a relationship where we actually

427
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Speaker 2: talk intimately, I was able to to thank him for that.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember one of the final conversations you had

429
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Speaker 1: with him, and.

430
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Speaker 2: Well he got Alzheimer's and he because he was such

431
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 2: a nice person, he was still like super nice, you know,

432
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 2: always worried did his caregivers get enough meals or you know,

433
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 2: eventually the fact he grew up in the depression showed

434
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Speaker 2: because he'd be worried about you know, are we buying

435
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 2: too expensive a meal, you know, even though he had

436
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 2: as much money as he could ever need, you know,

437
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,159
Speaker 2: so you know, we got back to his basic character,

438
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 2: which was just very friendly and thoughtful. So yes, I

439
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,919
Speaker 2: feel like in his case, we did have those conversations

440
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 2: that I never got to have with my mom.

441
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 1: There's the one phone call you described the three words

442
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 1: he used of I hear you when he was talking

443
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 1: to the school, and that left such a strong imprint.

444
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 1: Could you tell us why that was such a big

445
00:24:58,840 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 1: moment for you?

446
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 2: At that time, I was in this contract discussion with

447
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 2: this group. I thought, you know, owed me some computer time.

448
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,919
Speaker 2: So that's the first time that my dad is pitching

449
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 2: into help, and you know, I thought, what's he going

450
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 2: to do? Is he gonna, you know, threaten them or

451
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 2: be tough on them? And no, not at all. The

452
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,640
Speaker 2: fact that they sort of gave their side of the argument,

453
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,239
Speaker 2: and then you know, he just simply said I hear you,

454
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 2: which was this way of saying, you know, I don't

455
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,919
Speaker 2: agree with that. You know, let's try and reach a

456
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 2: compromise here. You have your point of view. So just

457
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,639
Speaker 2: the way he said I hear you, you know, kept

458
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:50,879
Speaker 2: things really calm, didn't acknowledge or attack their position, so

459
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,200
Speaker 2: we could get on to the Hey, you know, if

460
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:58,920
Speaker 2: you meet these guys halfway, isn't that okay for both

461
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 2: of you here? Which is is what eventually came out

462
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,880
Speaker 2: of it. And so the idea of being subtle and

463
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,920
Speaker 2: helping to find that common ground I was young enough

464
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 2: to that was kind of blew my mind. Yeah, wow,

465
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 2: you can kind of hold your ground but without being provocative.

466
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 1: What would you say is the one way your mother

467
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,959
Speaker 1: influenced your parenting style and then your father influenced your

468
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:25,680
Speaker 1: parenting style.

469
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,719
Speaker 2: Well, this idea that it was actually kind of school

470
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 2: called love and logic, where you make expectations to the

471
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 2: child very very clear, and you make consequences very very clear,

472
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,479
Speaker 2: and in an unemotional way, you say no, you're going

473
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 2: to have to go to your room because we agreed.

474
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 2: If you did this, that's what happens. My dad practiced

475
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 2: that approach. My mom probably wanted to, but then if

476
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,639
Speaker 2: she was frustrated, you know, she'd be, oh, I'm so

477
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 2: disappointed and kind of bring emotion into it. So the

478
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:03,199
Speaker 2: intensity of how much my mom cared, I you know,

479
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 2: I think that was was great and I think kind

480
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 2: of that calm, predictable. Hey, the world works in a

481
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 2: clear way, and you know I'm on top of the world,

482
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,880
Speaker 2: and here's what I need from you. You know that

483
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,879
Speaker 2: very much came from my dad, So I tried to

484
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 2: be a little more around. You know, my wife, Melinda

485
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 2: deserves all the credit. You know that our kids have

486
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 2: come out as well because she really was around. But

487
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:33,120
Speaker 2: I tried to be. That's the one thing I did

488
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 2: a bit differently than my dad was was more more

489
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:41,360
Speaker 2: intense vacation time, a little bit more of a direct communication,

490
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 2: not through their mother.

491
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 1: How did you reconcile that towards the end about your

492
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,399
Speaker 1: father's style and how did you make space for that

493
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 1: and accept that.

494
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,679
Speaker 2: In that generation. You know, my dad's career was a

495
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,360
Speaker 2: very big thing. In fact, having all sorts of adults

496
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,919
Speaker 2: around for events, you know, it was connected to his career,

497
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 2: and you know he did very well. He was a

498
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 2: top lawyer in Seattle. So I never resented the idea

499
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 2: that that my dad was very busy. You know, you

500
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 2: had kids early, you know, the man's career is important. Later.

501
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 2: My mom also not only is doing volunteer activities, but

502
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 2: as people wanted women on boards because she had the

503
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 2: right background, she got a huge number of those opportunities,

504
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 2: and she got a little busy herself. You know, I

505
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 2: don't think the amount of time is the only the

506
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 2: only key factor there.

507
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd have to agree. I was when I was

508
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 1: reading it too, I was thinking that. And this was

509
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 1: what I found so interesting though when I was reading

510
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: source Code, that even though you have lived such an

511
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: other worldly life in so many ways, there were so

512
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,959
Speaker 1: many relatable moments from a parenting standpoint, And when I

513
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 1: was reading it, I was thinking about my father too,

514
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 1: who wasn't around a lot when I was younger. He

515
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: was working. Both my parents had to work. And to

516
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: the point you just made right now, like my father

517
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: wasn't there when I was playing rugby, or he wasn't

518
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: there when I was swimming for my you know, local club,

519
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: or he wasn't there on the sidelines cheering. And for me,

520
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: that really allowed me to become the man I wanted

521
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 1: to be, and it allowed me to have more freedom almost,

522
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 1: to not feel like there was this heavy expectation. And

523
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 1: I've always seen that as a positive thing because it

524
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 1: allowed me to have a broader definition of what it

525
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 1: meant to be a man, what it meant to be

526
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 1: a son, what it meant to go off and discover

527
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 1: something that I was passionate about. And so even seeing

528
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: you kind of having your mother be the one who

529
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 1: was almost you know, pushing the expectation and what the

530
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 1: family should be, but then having a bit of freedom,

531
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 1: it was interesting to see how that impacted you, to

532
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 1: be able to push back, to be able to you know,

533
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 1: even at one point, like you said in that letter,

534
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 1: like parent him almost in his decision and play that role.

535
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 1: It was refreshing for me to read a book about

536
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: you where I was, where I was actually seeing pots

537
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 1: of myself in certain relationships in a very relatable way.

538
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 1: Did you Did you ever anticipate that when you were

539
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: writing it.

540
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 2: I was surprised, you know, so when I'm describing going

541
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 2: on those hikes, I was thinking, boy, would I have

542
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 2: let my son go off? And we really are holding

543
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 2: back children a bit more, you know, out of a

544
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 2: sense of okay, ultimate safety, I guess. But you know,

545
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 2: in that generation I was allowed to take trips and

546
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 2: hikes and and I think it benefited me. And so

547
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 2: writing the book, I was like, wow, And you've talked

548
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 2: with people like Jonathan hyde about this largely a bit overprotecting,

549
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 2: you know, kids so that they don't get to make

550
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 2: mistakes or try themselves out or mature the way that

551
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 2: is best for them.

552
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 1: Do you think school's failing to If.

553
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 2: You have thirty people in a class, it's pretty tough.

554
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 2: You're going to have some kids who are behind and

555
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 2: somewhere our head. You know, even the best teacher has

556
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 2: got a big challenge with that. Education I wouldn't say

557
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 2: is much better or worse today than a few decades ago.

558
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 2: We've always thought, okay, when we bring the computer in,

559
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 2: you know, will that helpful? And certainly if you want

560
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 2: to find information, it's been great. We're still working on

561
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 2: that now with the AI. Maybe a personal tutor will

562
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 2: be encouraging and work on your level. It's early days,

563
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 2: but I've been out seeing some of that in classrooms,

564
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 2: people like Salcon with Konomigo that our foundation is helping

565
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 2: to support. But education, the computer has not made it

566
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 2: so oh wow. Kids learn a lot more today than

567
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 2: they did did a long time ago, and I still

568
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 2: believe we can change that. But it means if you're

569
00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 2: in one of those large classes, you can feel lost,

570
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 2: and you know, we're missing, you know, great human potential.

571
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 1: What are we getting wrong? Because it sounds like you

572
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 1: felt maybe the computer would give people that impetus and

573
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 1: the ability to download more and len more. Where have

574
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 1: we gone wrong?

575
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 2: Well, the key is motivation. If you have a kid

576
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 2: who's super motivated, then yes, going to the con website

577
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 2: and doing hours of math problems, that's great. But in

578
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 2: a way that takes the kid who's in that top

579
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 2: twenty percent and makes him even more intimidating to the

580
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 2: other ones. And you know, people can come in and

581
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 2: if a kid in eighth grade says is math a

582
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 2: subject you have any confidence in? If the answer no

583
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 2: to that, they're five times more likely to drop out.

584
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 2: And so we do lose kids, and it's more out

585
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 2: of motivation. And so most of the stuff we've done

586
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 2: on the computer is about okay, if you are motivated,

587
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 2: will help you out, and not so much about how

588
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 2: you make it feel relevant to them and give them

589
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 2: a sense of success. And maybe this time around with

590
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 2: these AI personal tutors will will get that right. But

591
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 2: kids check out. No, I'm not one of those kids

592
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 2: who's good at math, even though for a lot of professions,

593
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 2: and you know, for college courses. We require algebra two

594
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 2: tests to be passed in order to go on and

595
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 2: you know, even be a nurse or a policeman. So

596
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 2: we have we have work to do. But more on

597
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 2: on the motivational side.

598
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I really I really appreciate you saying that, actually,

599
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 1: because I do think that we think about changing education

600
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: is so theoretical and functional, but it is the drive,

601
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 1: it is the motivation. And I was thinking about how

602
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,719
Speaker 1: we put limits on ourselves when I finished sixth grade.

603
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 1: I remember before I went to high school, my favorite

604
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 1: subject was math in sixth grade and my least favorite

605
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 1: subject was off And then when I finished high school,

606
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: my most favorite subject was art and my least favorite

607
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: subject was math. And it was just fascinating to me

608
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 1: how that completely flipped over a seven year period. And

609
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: as I've grown up in my own life, I found

610
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,359
Speaker 1: that art and design, philosophy, economics are far more where

611
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 1: I naturally gravitate toward. But so much of that up

612
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 1: until sixth grade was the limits or the things that

613
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 1: were expected of me, as opposed to what I was

614
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: motivated and driven towards. And I was thinking about something

615
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 1: you said in the book. You said that if you

616
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 1: were growing up today, you would have been diagnosed with

617
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,319
Speaker 1: being on the autism spectrum, and I was wondering, how

618
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 1: would that have affected you? How do you think that

619
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 1: would have affected you?

620
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm fascinated by that because for some people, being

621
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 2: given a label is a pejorative to them, and you know,

622
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 2: almost feel shameful. Although we know, you know, being on

623
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 2: the spectrum gives you, you know, almost some superpowerful concentration

624
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 2: that if you find the right place, it can be helpful.

625
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 2: Other people they're glad when they get that, because then

626
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 2: they say, oh, that's why, you know, my social skills

627
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 2: were slowed to develop, and you know, here's some strategies

628
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 2: that people like me have used. I'm not alone in this,

629
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 2: you know, I fit in into this, and it's actually

630
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 2: a reasonably common thing. There isn't like some medicine ADHD,

631
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 2: you know, which I probably also would have been diagnosed with.

632
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 2: They do have the vocal and out or all a

633
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 2: variety of things they give kids for that, And I

634
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,800
Speaker 2: still wonder about that. I haven't chosen as an adult

635
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 2: to get a diagnosis or use those medicines. I think

636
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 2: eventually you learn to, you know, adapt. I still kind

637
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 2: of rock a little bit that when I'm thinking hard

638
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 2: and without even knowing it, and it does bother people sometimes,

639
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,399
Speaker 2: And that's definitely kind of a what they call self

640
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 2: stimulate behavior that you know, makes it pretty likely I

641
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,439
Speaker 2: fit into that diagnosis.

642
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 1: Do you think it would have changed your trajectory of success?

643
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:11,879
Speaker 1: Have you thought about that?

644
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 2: Or I worry that I might have thought of it

645
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 2: as pejorative. It's really how you communicate it. I mean,

646
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 2: if you say, hey, here's a kid who doesn't socialize

647
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 2: at all, and you're you know, sort of destined to,

648
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 2: you know, never be good at those things. You know,

649
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,360
Speaker 2: obviously to create a company, hire people, motivate people, go

650
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 2: out and you know, sell the the dream of computing.

651
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 2: I've had to, even though I'm not a natural, you know,

652
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 2: develop a lot of social behaviors, and it might have

653
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:51,760
Speaker 2: discouraged me unless it was done in a very tasteful way,

654
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 2: you know. I think of that doctor Kressey experience where

655
00:36:55,680 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 2: he didn't make me feel terrible, why enlightening me that

656
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:07,359
Speaker 2: I was wasting my time as well as my parents' time.

657
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, did you did you continue therapy after that? Or ever? Go?

658
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:15,800
Speaker 2: Yes, most periods of my life I found it useful

659
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,319
Speaker 2: to have a therapist where I'm talking to about, you know,

660
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 2: what's confusing or what's troubling. I think, you know, I'm

661
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 2: very lucky to have that. I think, particularly if you

662
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 2: have a life where some extreme things happen that you know,

663
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 2: luck is a huge part of that to you know,

664
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 2: keep your you know, keep you on the ground. A

665
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:44,439
Speaker 2: good therapist can play an invaluable role there. So, yeah,

666
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 2: I benefited to this day from those kind of conversations.

667
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I was thinking about in the book. Obviously

668
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,399
Speaker 1: you beautifully introduced us to Kent, and obviously the loss

669
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 1: of Kent seems to be a place in your memory

670
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:02,399
Speaker 1: that's naturally so difficult and fuzzy, and you talk about

671
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 1: in the book how you're not quite sure what your

672
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 1: parents would have said and how it all felt. And

673
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 1: I was just wondering if there were any did you

674
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,280
Speaker 1: have support at that time through therapy and other ways

675
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:12,800
Speaker 1: to deal with that grief?

676
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 2: No, And I've been looking recently at people like Canison

677
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,760
Speaker 2: Cooper are talking about, Okay, how do you deal with grief?

678
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 2: And you know, a lot of what they come up

679
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 2: with is that if you can keep talking about the

680
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 2: person and you know what you got from them, You're

681
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 2: kind of honoring them. You know, Kent's parents obviously were

682
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 2: the most affected by this, because you know, they would

683
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 2: never have this incredible son and you know who would have,

684
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 2: no doubt gone off and done incredible things. And I

685
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 2: remember spending time with them for like a year afterwards,

686
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,840
Speaker 2: and then feeling a bit guilty that as I got busy,

687
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 2: I didn't do that as much. You know, in the book,

688
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 2: I actually start out where I've seen Kent's father. I

689
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,919
Speaker 2: run into him right as I'm starting work on the book,

690
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,720
Speaker 2: and you know, we can talk about what a great

691
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 2: influence he had on me, and you know, so I did.

692
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 2: I did think that was helpful. But boy, it took

693
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 2: me a long time because death it was just such

694
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 2: a shocking thing. I have this idealic childhood other than

695
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 2: Ken's death, nothing at all traumatic. And we're talking all

696
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 2: the time, you know a little bit. I reach out

697
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 2: to Paul to kind of feel Paul Allen, who goes

698
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 2: on to found Microsoft with me, to step in and

699
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:44,919
Speaker 2: you know, be that that super close friend. But back then,

700
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 2: the idea of how you dealt with trauma was mostly hey,

701
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 2: buck up, you know, get on with things, which after

702
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 2: a few months I did.

703
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:55,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it was at that time you're talking about

704
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 1: how he actually invited you on the trip he went

705
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:01,399
Speaker 1: to and like you're talking just before oh, he goes off,

706
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 1: and then all all of a sudden, you're like, wait

707
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: a minute, we used to talk every day or you know,

708
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 1: and that it can feel so disassociated from yourself in

709
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 1: that moment. It feels like, how did you revisit that?

710
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 1: When did you kind of tend towards working through the

711
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 1: grief as you wrote the book? Did it feel like

712
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 1: you were revisiting it?

713
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:22,359
Speaker 2: But it definitely you know at that high school when

714
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 2: I built a hall in his name and you know,

715
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 2: gone out there and talked a little bit about the

716
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:34,840
Speaker 2: role that Kent played in my evolution. You know, so

717
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 2: some efforts to honor him, you know. Sadly, you know,

718
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,799
Speaker 2: Paul al and also the other key friend in this

719
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 2: book died I think about six years ago from cancer,

720
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 2: and you know he he also was very key at

721
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 2: getting me on the right path. And there wouldn't be

722
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 2: you know, without those those two friends. You know, there

723
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,799
Speaker 2: really wouldn't probably wouldn't be anything like Microsoft.

724
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, you talk about how Paul was setting your little

725
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 1: challenges and would ask you to, you know, try this,

726
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 1: so do that, and then you'd go ahead. And I

727
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:13,799
Speaker 1: was thinking, how amazing to have a friend that can

728
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 1: motivate and inspire you in that way. And then I

729
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 1: was thinking about what you just said when I was

730
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 1: reading the book, that it felt like you told so

731
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 1: many stories of so many people in your life that

732
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 1: are no longer here now, and so grief wasn't just

733
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 1: about Ken or Paul. It was, you know, just so

734
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 1: many individuals that you've had life with that you're having

735
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 1: to process that with what has been helpful for you

736
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 1: genuinely deeply inside that has led to some sort of

737
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 1: helpful direction with that grief of writing a book about

738
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 1: all these wonderful people that you've lost.

739
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,360
Speaker 2: Well, most of my life has been about looking forward

740
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 2: and Okay, let's get this innovation and let's do it first,

741
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 2: and you know, whether it's software saving children's lives, which

742
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 2: is the big foundation thing. And it is a little

743
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 2: bit unnatural for me to look back because you have

744
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 2: to say, Okay, how do I describe my relationship with

745
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 2: my mom in an open, honest way and yet honor her?

746
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 2: You know how do I talk about camp where I

747
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 2: don't know if he'd lived, what would have happened, but

748
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 2: you know, probably you know something that he would have

749
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 2: very much been a part of it. And so it's

750
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 2: awkward to look back because you you have to deal

751
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 2: with these things and talk about you know, you know,

752
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,919
Speaker 2: should have vibes spent more time with his parents afterwards,

753
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 2: you know, because eventually I stopped doing that. But you know,

754
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 2: this year I turned seventy. I mentally don't feel like

755
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 2: I think of a seventy year old, but you know,

756
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 2: it means, you know, I'm in the final third, no

757
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 2: doubt of you know what, I've been very lucky to live,

758
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 2: and so you know, I really did force myself say no,

759
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,919
Speaker 2: there's some lessons out of this, you know, telling people

760
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 2: how lucky I was, and maybe a few lessons for

761
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 2: them as as parents or how they navigate success. And

762
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,800
Speaker 2: so once we got going on it, I've enjoyed it

763
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,360
Speaker 2: quite a bit. I have to say, when I'm reviewing

764
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 2: it and editing it, I'm very slow because I'm you know,

765
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 2: reliving these things. So it always takes me about three

766
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 2: times longer to take some pages and edit. Then I

767
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:31,839
Speaker 2: predict or if it was you know, something like about

768
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:35,479
Speaker 2: climate or pandemics. You know, I'm I'm pretty fast. There's

769
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 2: no deep emotion that I have to relive as I'm editing,

770
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:44,279
Speaker 2: uh something scientific.

771
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,920
Speaker 1: What was your favorite part to relive and what was

772
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 1: the hardest part to relive?

773
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 2: Well, everything about the fascination we had and you're like,

774
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,839
Speaker 2: what do we see this thing? These computers are going

775
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:00,919
Speaker 2: to be amazing, and but no one else saying that,

776
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:06,880
Speaker 2: so we must be wrong. And you know that contradiction.

777
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 2: So you know Paul actually I helped him get a

778
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 2: job out in Boston so he could be out there

779
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:17,800
Speaker 2: and bugging me that, okay, should we go build a company.

780
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 2: And then finally when this kit computer, which is so limited,

781
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:26,320
Speaker 2: but it's the beginning of the revolution, when that comes out,

782
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 2: then you know Paul's argument we should go and do something.

783
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 2: He wins because we don't want to be left behind.

784
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 2: We want to want to be there from the very beginning.

785
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 2: And then we meet a few people, though it was

786
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 2: still a very small move, we meet other people like

787
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 2: Steve wosney k Steve Jobs, who also you know, have

788
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,720
Speaker 2: been infected with this idea of okay, we're on to something.

789
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 2: That is going to be huge.

790
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,880
Speaker 1: That, Paul, I mean, the reasons that you did to

791
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 1: find in this book. I was every time I was reading,

792
00:44:58,040 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 1: I was just like, how do you have so much detail?

793
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 1: I was really blown away by the level of detail

794
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:07,320
Speaker 1: both in the storytelling every moment. But then even there's

795
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,280
Speaker 1: that note that you have that says Steve Jobs called

796
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:13,239
Speaker 1: was rude, and I was just like, you know, even

797
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 1: just having that back then, I was laughing as I

798
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 1: read it, and I was wondering, like, I feel like,

799
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:22,759
Speaker 1: as from the outside and naturally, and you talk about

800
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,320
Speaker 1: this later on in the book, how we see people

801
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,320
Speaker 1: as this like slither of who they are, and people

802
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: have a public profile and that becomes their brand. And

803
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 1: if you look at it from the outside, you see

804
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:37,319
Speaker 1: Steve Jobs and yourself having this competition, envy, jealousy, kind

805
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:41,279
Speaker 1: of like arch rival, nemesis kind of portrayal. What was

806
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 1: it actually like, because in the book it comes across

807
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 1: much more inviting than that as opposed to this kind

808
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 1: of harsh rivalry.

809
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 2: Well, I had a fantastic relation with Steve. You know,

810
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 2: early on I got to do the basic which they

811
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 2: called applestop that went with every apple to computer so

812
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 2: I worked with both jobs at Mosniak to get that done.

813
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 2: Then later, as Steve has a kind of small group

814
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 2: inside Apple doing the Macintosh, he invited Microsoft to write

815
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 2: application software a spreadsheet word processor for it, and so

816
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 2: we actually had as many people as they did, and

817
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:25,359
Speaker 2: we worked very closely on that project, and he and

818
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,319
Speaker 2: I loved the fact that, you know, that ended up

819
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 2: being a key Apple product. Then he leaves Apple. I

820
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,359
Speaker 2: talked to him about next but I never thought that

821
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 2: computer would do that well. So he was disappointed. But

822
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 2: then when he goes back and he's it's unbelievable, what

823
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:48,919
Speaker 2: a great job he did. Because Apple went from being

824
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 2: on the way to dine to being the world's most

825
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:57,440
Speaker 2: valuable company, and Steve had really matured and it was

826
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 2: something and I we helped write softa for that. Then

827
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 2: later when Steve uh is sick, we had about five

828
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:10,759
Speaker 2: different conversations where we got to talk about kids and

829
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 2: you know, had computers done well and you know where

830
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 2: he was pretty thoughtful. It's amazing to me that Steve,

831
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:21,840
Speaker 2: you know, his skill set and mind other than okay,

832
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 2: you know Madman leader, you know, drawing people in but

833
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:31,359
Speaker 2: he his taste in design and user interface and even

834
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 2: his intuition about people. He was just genius in a

835
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 2: way you can't explain. He didn't look at code and

836
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 2: write code, whereas you know, my thing is, hey, I'm

837
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 2: an engineer. You know, here's the code, let's make it

838
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 2: faster and smaller. So actually that allowed us to get along,

839
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 2: because you know what he was super good at I

840
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 2: was not good at. I envied those just incredible talents

841
00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:59,360
Speaker 2: that he had. And then somebody's he's more singular. You know,

842
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 2: if you say to me, are there other people like

843
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,799
Speaker 2: you who are great at writing code and conceptionizing? And think, yeah,

844
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 2: I can name a number of people, including many who

845
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 2: worked with me, But I don't know somebody who's who

846
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,360
Speaker 2: I say, Oh, yeah, you know he he's just like

847
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 2: Steve Jobs.

848
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 1: Well, well that's very Humblivia as well. I mean, that's

849
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:20,880
Speaker 1: beautiful to hear. What were some of those final conversations

850
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 1: like that you had with him that were potentially I

851
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 1: always felt like he was so philosophical and maybe more

852
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 1: so in those moments.

853
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:31,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, we did one public appearance, you know, where we

854
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 2: were being thoughtful about the friendship. What Mosburg had had

855
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 2: us on stage together, which was definitely a fun thing

856
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:43,440
Speaker 2: and surprised people because Steve was very harsh. You know,

857
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 2: he was a you know, he said we were the

858
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 2: general motors and he was like the Mercedes. But you know,

859
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 2: all in uh, it was all very fair. Well, we've

860
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:58,840
Speaker 2: you know, we reflected that computers really hadn't improved education,

861
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:01,359
Speaker 2: and we're both you and I had given speeches saying,

862
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:06,439
Speaker 2: of course this will make education, you know, five times better,

863
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:10,360
Speaker 2: and we're like, wow, we got that one wrong. Maybe

864
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:14,800
Speaker 2: you know, maybe next round we'll deliver on that promise.

865
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:18,040
Speaker 2: And you know how unusual it was, even a little

866
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 2: bit lonely that, you know, when you were so successful

867
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 2: and then you're having doubts about, okay, are we making

868
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 2: mistakes here? You know, both of us had had kids

869
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 2: by then. He was actually you know, of course he

870
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:36,320
Speaker 2: not only did Apple, he did the Pixar stuff. And

871
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:39,560
Speaker 2: because that was a realm I'm not in, I you know,

872
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:43,320
Speaker 2: could sincerely tell him what a brilliant job he did.

873
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 2: Now partly picking people, but that's you know, kind of amazing, uh,

874
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 2: you know, now part of Disney, and you know, in

875
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 2: both a sense of thankfulness, although you know, he was

876
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:00,880
Speaker 2: very sick and just hoping some new rug would come along,

877
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 2: and tragically it didn't.

878
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, was there a memorable piece of advice or conversation

879
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:07,839
Speaker 1: where you said something to him or he said something

880
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:09,439
Speaker 1: to you that has stayed with you?

881
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:11,879
Speaker 2: Well, the fact that, you know, why were we both

882
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:15,359
Speaker 2: so competitive and pushing ahead? I think both of us.

883
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:17,400
Speaker 2: You know, in his case, he's an orphan, so he

884
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 2: has a more complicated childhood that maybe can explain his zeal.

885
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 2: I don't have anything like that, you know, even though Kent,

886
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:31,000
Speaker 2: that's not why. You know, Well, before that, I was

887
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,799
Speaker 2: somehow always, you know, pushing as hard as I could be,

888
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 2: and you know, I think both of us, you know,

889
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 2: being thankful for what we'd been able to work on.

890
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:45,919
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, we got more of a front

891
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 2: row seat and help build this thing. Steve never got

892
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 2: around to doing philanthropy. Now his widow, Loreen is doing

893
00:50:55,440 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 2: great philanthropy, so you know that's I'm sure he'd he'd

894
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 2: be proud of that, but he didn't get to that stage,

895
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:04,560
Speaker 2: and I was just getting into that stage. So I

896
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:07,359
Speaker 2: shared with them a little bit about, Wow, a lot

897
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:10,759
Speaker 2: of children tie and we don't do much to stop that,

898
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:13,799
Speaker 2: and that kind of intrigued him, but then he never

899
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 2: got to pursue it.

900
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:17,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're reminded me of something I read in Barb

901
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 1: Eyger's book where he was talking about how there was

902
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:23,800
Speaker 1: a time when Spielberg, George Lucas they'd all sit together

903
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 1: and then they'd watch each other's movies and give them feedback.

904
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:29,800
Speaker 1: And they all felt very confident in doing that because

905
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:34,279
Speaker 1: they knew their strengths and their uniqueness were so diverse,

906
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 1: and so they didn't feel threatened that, oh, well, Steve's

907
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 1: going to steal my idea, or you know, George Luke's

908
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:41,240
Speaker 1: going to steal my idea, because they felt so confident.

909
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 1: And it sounds like even for yourself as competitors to

910
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:47,320
Speaker 1: talk to have a relationship, does that still happen today?

911
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:49,759
Speaker 1: Do competitives talk? Do they pick up the phone to

912
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 1: each other? Was that very rare? Because it feels like

913
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:56,480
Speaker 1: it feels definitely now so less.

914
00:51:57,120 --> 00:52:01,719
Speaker 2: I have a good friendship both with Jeff Bezos and

915
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:06,960
Speaker 2: Mark Zuckerberg. Elon stands by himself. Maybe that drives everybody

916
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:10,479
Speaker 2: else together. I don't know. And you know, over time,

917
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:13,960
Speaker 2: I think Elon, as he gets older, maybe he'll mellow

918
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:17,880
Speaker 2: out a little bit and you know, probably be an

919
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:22,080
Speaker 2: incredible philanthropist based on everything else that he's done. But yes,

920
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:25,799
Speaker 2: there is some good conversation. You know, Larry Ellison is

921
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:29,839
Speaker 2: now in a phase where he's doing some excellent philanthropy

922
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:33,280
Speaker 2: and we're all a bit more reflectfile. I mean, hopefully

923
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:36,239
Speaker 2: by the time you get to seventy been hyper successfully,

924
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:38,799
Speaker 2: you can you know, relax and let your guard down

925
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:42,320
Speaker 2: a little bit and you know, laugh about the things

926
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:42,960
Speaker 2: you got wrong.

927
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:45,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, what were some of the advice that you've given

928
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:48,479
Speaker 1: to Mark or especially earlier on his journey or even

929
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 1: more recently.

930
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, Microsoft, the one big challenge we

931
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 2: had is we were so successful by the late nineties

932
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 2: that we got into and I trust difficulties and in retrospect,

933
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 2: we could have handled that better. And so I've been

934
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:09,280
Speaker 2: very open with Mark. You know, I used to brag

935
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:11,640
Speaker 2: that I didn't have an office in DC, and I

936
00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 2: didn't you know, what a great country that I didn't

937
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 2: have to talk to politicians. Well that was a mistake,

938
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:21,520
Speaker 2: you know. Now you know, you've got all of them

939
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:25,680
Speaker 2: going to the inauguration, and you know, so they're not

940
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:29,240
Speaker 2: they're not making that mistake. Maybe they have they corrected

941
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 2: too much in another direction? Well, you know his history,

942
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 2: will will judge se Yeah, I'm you know, it's weird

943
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 2: to be kind of an elder statesman. Uh.

944
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:39,600
Speaker 1: You know.

945
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 2: Sauty who runs Microsoft has done such a brilliant job.

946
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:45,680
Speaker 2: And in one of my great fears when I left

947
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:48,839
Speaker 2: Microsoft to go do philanthropy was how bad I would

948
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:53,720
Speaker 2: feel if it wasn't doing well. And so Steve Balmer

949
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:57,080
Speaker 2: did a great job and now satchaz with this AI generation.

950
00:53:57,239 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 2: So I that's another great blessing is that not only

951
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:04,399
Speaker 2: the value the stock, but also the fact I can

952
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:08,480
Speaker 2: just focus on okay, what about polio and malaria? You know,

953
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 2: knowing that they're taking the company to new heights. You

954
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:16,239
Speaker 2: know what a great blessing that's been for me.

955
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems like I love what you were just

956
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 1: saying now that you know, maybe there'll be a time

957
00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:24,319
Speaker 1: when Elon turns to philanthropy and you talked about others,

958
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:28,360
Speaker 1: and it seems that that turning point for view is

959
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:30,120
Speaker 1: so key, and I feel like you were one of

960
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:32,759
Speaker 1: the first, not that it wasn't done before, but one

961
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:34,759
Speaker 1: of the first to do it in a really big

962
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:37,319
Speaker 1: way to be able to move away from this big

963
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:42,719
Speaker 1: company that you founded, world changing, generation changing, and then

964
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:46,200
Speaker 1: turning to that and that service element. To me, I

965
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 1: was intrigued as to why do you believe that that's

966
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 1: almost where every one of these people need to go, Like,

967
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:54,799
Speaker 1: why is it that you believe that turning to a

968
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:58,000
Speaker 1: life of service and giving back is core for Elon

969
00:54:58,120 --> 00:54:59,200
Speaker 1: or whoever else it may be.

970
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:02,360
Speaker 2: Well, it's pretty saying this is a world where somebody

971
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:06,719
Speaker 2: can have over one hundred billion dollars. I mean that

972
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:12,360
Speaker 2: you know what is that and it's not you know,

973
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:15,239
Speaker 2: you don't want to just give that to children and

974
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:18,319
Speaker 2: create some dynasty that's not even a favorite to them.

975
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:23,880
Speaker 2: You want to give that back. So these are unprecedented fortunes.

976
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:27,239
Speaker 2: And if you're a great innovator and you know how

977
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 2: to gather scientists together and think about problems, then there

978
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:35,680
Speaker 2: are some government just risk averse, and particularly poor countries

979
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:41,080
Speaker 2: don't have that capacity to think about eradicating malaria or

980
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:47,359
Speaker 2: solving malnutrition. It there is something that philanthropy can have

981
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:51,239
Speaker 2: these outsized results in terms of life saved, almost like

982
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 2: you know a great startup does on the side of innovation.

983
00:55:56,200 --> 00:56:02,040
Speaker 2: So getting those minds to turn those capacities to equity

984
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:07,320
Speaker 2: to the poorest, both inside the US and outside the US.

985
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,000
Speaker 2: You know, I feel that, you know, we've got the

986
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:13,759
Speaker 2: golden rule. We're supposed to care about people. There are

987
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:18,080
Speaker 2: times when it feels like sympathy for poor people outside

988
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:21,480
Speaker 2: the country's lower today then it's been, But I know

989
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:26,319
Speaker 2: that'll come back around because of the moral logic there.

990
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 2: I think, I believe is very very strong, and you know,

991
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 2: I found it so fulfilling. And I created a group

992
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:40,120
Speaker 2: called Giving Pledge of people who've committed to give the

993
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:42,759
Speaker 2: majority of their wealth away and we learn from each other,

994
00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:45,960
Speaker 2: hopefully we inspire each other, and hopefully we change the

995
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:51,480
Speaker 2: societal expectations that if you have even a modest fortune,

996
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:55,839
Speaker 2: most of it should combine with your talents and make

997
00:56:55,880 --> 00:57:00,640
Speaker 2: the world a bit more of a fair, fair place.

998
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:04,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's absolutely brilliant because I was really

999
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:07,480
Speaker 1: fortunate when I went out and lived as part of

1000
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:11,040
Speaker 1: my time as a monk in India, we helped put

1001
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:13,360
Speaker 1: together a well the monks were doing already, but I

1002
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:15,839
Speaker 1: got to be a part of it. Helped build a

1003
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:20,720
Speaker 1: daily food distribution service in India that feeds a million

1004
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:23,240
Speaker 1: kids a day and it was all in exactly what

1005
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 1: you're saying, like to help them malnutrition children, and now

1006
00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:28,320
Speaker 1: they're even trying to figure out how much protein to

1007
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 1: having it, like trying to figure out the actual composition

1008
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:34,600
Speaker 1: as well. And I remember seeing that so early in

1009
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:36,880
Speaker 1: my life, like I would have gone out there first

1010
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:39,360
Speaker 1: time in my teens and then later on when I

1011
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:42,120
Speaker 1: became a monk in my early twenties. But the reason

1012
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:43,920
Speaker 1: I raise it is because I think it goes back

1013
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:47,480
Speaker 1: to what the point you made earlier about motivation. And

1014
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:49,640
Speaker 1: one thing I've really been trying to figure out with

1015
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:53,360
Speaker 1: the right partner recently is how when I grew up,

1016
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:55,520
Speaker 1: I remember my dad used to read the rich list

1017
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:58,160
Speaker 1: and he'd have the rich list like the Sunday Times

1018
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:00,800
Speaker 1: or whatever it was, and kid, I would see my

1019
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:02,120
Speaker 1: dad and on the back of it would be the

1020
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:04,720
Speaker 1: rich list. And I was thinking, how incredible would it

1021
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 1: be if kids grew up with a service list, and

1022
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:10,600
Speaker 1: how would that change motivation? Because I feel we we

1023
00:58:10,760 --> 00:58:14,040
Speaker 1: repeat what we've reward and I feel like we've never

1024
00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:18,000
Speaker 1: really seen that case study yet up until maybe you

1025
00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:21,640
Speaker 1: know your case study and the people that are following

1026
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:24,760
Speaker 1: with the giving pledge that service becomes a natural part

1027
00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:27,440
Speaker 1: of life at that scale. I think we see it

1028
00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:30,800
Speaker 1: in smaller communities. You see people with very little actually

1029
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:33,560
Speaker 1: doing so much, but you don't necessarily see it at

1030
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:36,720
Speaker 1: that level. And so I find that changing that drive

1031
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:39,400
Speaker 1: and motivation early on, which it seems like your mother

1032
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:42,120
Speaker 1: had for you, your impact of faith had in you.

1033
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:44,600
Speaker 1: I think that could be huge. I don't know what

1034
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:47,040
Speaker 1: you think about people seeing a service list instead of

1035
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:49,040
Speaker 1: a rich list or whatever the right word is.

1036
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:54,600
Speaker 2: Sadly, the wealth metric is an easier one to compute

1037
00:58:55,120 --> 00:59:00,760
Speaker 2: than you know, the impact you've had philanthropically. And part

1038
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:03,920
Speaker 2: of the beauty of philanthropy is there's many causes out there.

1039
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:08,880
Speaker 2: You know, I've tried to think through. Okay, you know,

1040
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:12,120
Speaker 2: since we know how to save lives for one thousand

1041
00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:16,240
Speaker 2: dollars per life saved, wow, we better use this money

1042
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:21,760
Speaker 2: as absolutely best we can. And I do think we're

1043
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:26,880
Speaker 2: going to see a rise in philanthropy. I mean, you know,

1044
00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:33,600
Speaker 2: these fortunes are almost illegitimate unless they are in a

1045
00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:38,360
Speaker 2: very smart way given back. If it's consumption, if it's dynasty,

1046
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:42,760
Speaker 2: I don't think society should feel that good about it.

1047
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 2: And you know, I sat down with Bernie Sunderson, and

1048
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:48,880
Speaker 2: he said no, he would outlaw billionaires. I think that's

1049
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:55,160
Speaker 2: a mistake. I think allowing in America in particular wild innovation,

1050
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:59,000
Speaker 2: wild risk taking is good. But then on the back

1051
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:02,960
Speaker 2: side of that there there should be a strong expectation.

1052
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:06,520
Speaker 2: And I think role models help a lot. You know,

1053
01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:10,600
Speaker 2: Warren Buffett in very different industry, very different skill set,

1054
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:13,440
Speaker 2: you know, he's always been a role model. Was the

1055
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:18,160
Speaker 2: one who, even when I was still building the fortune,

1056
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:21,680
Speaker 2: said Okay, your mom is right, you know, and here's

1057
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:26,600
Speaker 2: some books you should read, you know, Carnegie Gospel of Wealth,

1058
01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:30,080
Speaker 2: the History of what Rockefeller did you know, because this

1059
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:35,560
Speaker 2: will be an important as important a measure of your

1060
01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:37,640
Speaker 2: impact as making the money.

1061
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:40,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's such a brilliant lesson and wonderful

1062
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:42,720
Speaker 1: won to pass on what I think it was Trump.

1063
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:45,360
Speaker 1: You mentioned it recently that you'd asked to see him

1064
01:00:45,440 --> 01:00:47,840
Speaker 1: to have a discussion. Did that meeting have a happened.

1065
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:52,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. I had a very long and actually very impressive

1066
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:56,720
Speaker 2: dinner in terms of he asked good questions. You know.

1067
01:00:56,760 --> 01:01:00,840
Speaker 2: I talked about over ten million people are live because

1068
01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 2: of US generosity with HIV medicines. Going back to President

1069
01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:09,920
Speaker 2: Bush in two thousand and three, and you know, I

1070
01:01:10,040 --> 01:01:13,000
Speaker 2: encourage him to keep that as a priority and to

1071
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:16,919
Speaker 2: accelerate innovation. You know, there's an idea that you might

1072
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:19,560
Speaker 2: be able to curates that we're working on, and he

1073
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:23,600
Speaker 2: could help accelerate that. I talked about polio eradication and

1074
01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:29,440
Speaker 2: how his leadership and the US government resources are very

1075
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:32,480
Speaker 2: important there. And you know, I'm sure everybody's trying to

1076
01:01:32,520 --> 01:01:34,320
Speaker 2: meet with him. The fact he gave me that long

1077
01:01:34,360 --> 01:01:37,160
Speaker 2: period of time was actually pretty thoughtful in his questions.

1078
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:39,720
Speaker 2: You know, somebody may come along later and tell him

1079
01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:42,040
Speaker 2: to cut that money, but I make the argument as

1080
01:01:42,080 --> 01:01:46,720
Speaker 2: best I can that you know, the moral purpose of

1081
01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:50,040
Speaker 2: the US and how we're thought of, and the fact

1082
01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:55,400
Speaker 2: that a curius is on its way that's worthwhile. You know.

1083
01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:59,479
Speaker 2: So this administration is in charge and you know, trying

1084
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:03,840
Speaker 2: to help them. You know, they're willing to cancel old things,

1085
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:06,800
Speaker 2: some of which should maybe be canceled, some of which shouldn't,

1086
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:10,440
Speaker 2: you know, So they're you know, helping direct them, so

1087
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:13,560
Speaker 2: they'll use their open minded US to do different things

1088
01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:16,600
Speaker 2: and try and make that come out well. I and

1089
01:02:16,680 --> 01:02:18,720
Speaker 2: I think that's that's worth trying.

1090
01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:20,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, what what do you see is the moral purpose

1091
01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:22,720
Speaker 1: of the United States and the way you mentioned it

1092
01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:23,480
Speaker 1: just now.

1093
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:25,959
Speaker 2: Well, we've been the shining light of not only being

1094
01:02:26,560 --> 01:02:33,560
Speaker 2: a democracy ourselves and you know, having political opponents respect

1095
01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:36,680
Speaker 2: each other and work well together, but also you know,

1096
01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:39,440
Speaker 2: saying that even though we're in this very powerful position,

1097
01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:45,080
Speaker 2: we won't abuse that position. And Okay, if we allowed ourselves,

1098
01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:48,680
Speaker 2: you know, to let other people spend too lettle on

1099
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:51,360
Speaker 2: some things, you know, there's there's a balance there. But

1100
01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:56,520
Speaker 2: if you become too much of a bully and you're

1101
01:02:56,520 --> 01:03:01,680
Speaker 2: not keeping democracy, which you know, we're reducing the polarization

1102
01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:07,320
Speaker 2: and bridging some of these divides, that's a little bit scary.

1103
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:11,200
Speaker 2: You know, democracy is a fragile concept, and particularly the

1104
01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:14,400
Speaker 2: time when AI is coming along, and the government will

1105
01:03:14,400 --> 01:03:17,640
Speaker 2: have to play a strong role in saying, okay, these

1106
01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:21,320
Speaker 2: jobs have been lost, but we're more productive overall, and therefore,

1107
01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:26,680
Speaker 2: here's how we help those people. You know, how do

1108
01:03:26,720 --> 01:03:34,400
Speaker 2: we keep AI as a primarily beneficial thing versus a

1109
01:03:34,560 --> 01:03:37,760
Speaker 2: thing that bad people use and it messes up these

1110
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:41,960
Speaker 2: job markets that I expect the twenty twenty eight presidential

1111
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:46,000
Speaker 2: debate AI policies will be the most important thing. And

1112
01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:49,440
Speaker 2: I was a little bit surprised in this election that

1113
01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:51,720
Speaker 2: wasn't discussed hardly at all.

1114
01:03:51,880 --> 01:03:54,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's such a good point. I didn't actually think

1115
01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:57,240
Speaker 1: of the you're right, it didn't come up a tool. Yeah,

1116
01:03:57,240 --> 01:04:00,600
Speaker 1: that's fascinating. Well, how I mean, how do you prepare

1117
01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:03,160
Speaker 1: for something like that? It would need need to be

1118
01:04:03,160 --> 01:04:06,040
Speaker 1: surrounded by the right people and having the pies.

1119
01:04:06,200 --> 01:04:08,520
Speaker 2: Well, you've got to educate everyone. You know, you can't

1120
01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:11,920
Speaker 2: count on the technologists to shape these things. You know,

1121
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:16,320
Speaker 2: social networking, we're still arguing about what the policy should be.

1122
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:21,040
Speaker 2: And you know the fact that algorithms reward outrageous things

1123
01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:25,880
Speaker 2: that even if they're not at all factual, and AI

1124
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:29,560
Speaker 2: heightens all of that. And you know, there's an era

1125
01:04:29,720 --> 01:04:34,880
Speaker 2: where getting the politicians to see the technology including all

1126
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:38,720
Speaker 2: this good stuff personal tutors, better medical care, even making

1127
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:41,439
Speaker 2: the government more efficient. You know, this is the most

1128
01:04:41,480 --> 01:04:47,760
Speaker 2: promising set of tools because bureaucratic paperwork, AIS actually are

1129
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:54,040
Speaker 2: pretty darn good at at reading and processing those kinds

1130
01:04:54,040 --> 01:04:57,040
Speaker 2: of things. So you know, we're on the precipice of

1131
01:04:57,480 --> 01:05:03,280
Speaker 2: these AI breakthroughs. The reliability and capabilities. You know, it's

1132
01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:06,800
Speaker 2: kind of an extension of what I worked on as

1133
01:05:07,320 --> 01:05:11,640
Speaker 2: a child, you know, personal computers, then Internet, then cell

1134
01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:18,160
Speaker 2: phones and now AI. But it's because it's super intelligence.

1135
01:05:19,800 --> 01:05:23,440
Speaker 2: It's of a different character and will it'll put us

1136
01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:27,200
Speaker 2: to the test on how we work together within the

1137
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:29,640
Speaker 2: US and how countries work together.

1138
01:05:30,160 --> 01:05:33,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting because as you're doing about social media there,

1139
01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:36,520
Speaker 1: I think Mark Zuckerberg and Joe Rogan was saying that

1140
01:05:36,640 --> 01:05:39,000
Speaker 1: they are taking away their fact check is and I

1141
01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:42,439
Speaker 1: believe X is doing something similar. What was your take

1142
01:05:42,480 --> 01:05:43,040
Speaker 1: on that.

1143
01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:45,960
Speaker 2: You know, this whole thing of how you balance free

1144
01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:51,520
Speaker 2: speech versus not you know, discouraging people from using vaccines

1145
01:05:51,560 --> 01:05:55,480
Speaker 2: when that would be beneficial for them, or even extreme

1146
01:05:55,560 --> 01:06:00,360
Speaker 2: stuff like holocaust denial or some bad things there. I'm

1147
01:06:00,760 --> 01:06:05,160
Speaker 2: a little bit disappointed that my generation hasn't got a

1148
01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:10,720
Speaker 2: clear prescription to how we achieved both the goals free

1149
01:06:10,720 --> 01:06:17,080
Speaker 2: speech and yet reasonable discourse that's not misleading people. I mean,

1150
01:06:17,160 --> 01:06:21,760
Speaker 2: during the pandemic, you know, the negativity about vaccines, some

1151
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:24,720
Speaker 2: of which you know had me being some you know,

1152
01:06:24,800 --> 01:06:29,280
Speaker 2: weird mis behaving actor, you know, which was a lot

1153
01:06:29,280 --> 01:06:33,040
Speaker 2: of craziness. You know, clearly over a million people died

1154
01:06:33,600 --> 01:06:39,920
Speaker 2: who should have benefited from the vaccine, and next time,

1155
01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:42,400
Speaker 2: you know, whether it's an out of control ai or

1156
01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:47,240
Speaker 2: the next pandemic, the impact of not getting facts out

1157
01:06:47,280 --> 01:06:51,720
Speaker 2: could be much more dramatic. I mean, the next you

1158
01:06:51,760 --> 01:06:54,320
Speaker 2: could have a pathogen that was ten times or twenty

1159
01:06:54,360 --> 01:06:58,800
Speaker 2: times as fatal as COVID was, particularly once omicron comes along.

1160
01:06:58,880 --> 01:07:05,720
Speaker 2: The fatality rate is actually reasonably modest and mostly elder people.

1161
01:07:06,440 --> 01:07:13,000
Speaker 2: So politics meets ai H is where a lot of

1162
01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:17,880
Speaker 2: our faiths will be determined, even in the next ten years.

1163
01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:19,479
Speaker 1: And how do you see a role in that.

1164
01:07:19,680 --> 01:07:24,720
Speaker 2: Well, hopefully there's some things I really do understand about that.

1165
01:07:25,080 --> 01:07:28,080
Speaker 2: And whether it's giving advice to Microsoft or in my

1166
01:07:28,200 --> 01:07:32,240
Speaker 2: foundation work on education and health, you know, using it.

1167
01:07:32,480 --> 01:07:34,480
Speaker 2: You know, the place where you have the greatest shortage

1168
01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:38,280
Speaker 2: of teachers and doctors is impoort countries in Africa. So

1169
01:07:38,360 --> 01:07:41,360
Speaker 2: the fact that these things, you know, can give farmers

1170
01:07:41,400 --> 01:07:45,160
Speaker 2: advice and give a pregnant women advice, and look at

1171
01:07:45,200 --> 01:07:47,400
Speaker 2: what your kid is eating and say no, you need

1172
01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:52,040
Speaker 2: more protein in this diet. And it's essentially free, you know,

1173
01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:55,320
Speaker 2: the way that computing was free that I saw when

1174
01:07:55,360 --> 01:07:58,160
Speaker 2: I was young. Now we're getting into this even more

1175
01:07:58,240 --> 01:08:04,440
Speaker 2: radical thing of intelligen Jens will basically be free. You

1176
01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:07,800
Speaker 2: know that that's kind of wild stuff. So I hope

1177
01:08:08,480 --> 01:08:13,120
Speaker 2: both with some specific ideas, but then with the lessons

1178
01:08:13,120 --> 01:08:16,280
Speaker 2: of a past of where we've been able to shape

1179
01:08:16,280 --> 01:08:19,200
Speaker 2: things so far, you know, so that I think personal

1180
01:08:19,320 --> 01:08:24,360
Speaker 2: computing has largely been an empowering thing. You know. I

1181
01:08:24,400 --> 01:08:27,120
Speaker 2: was reading this book Nexus, where Harai says, then when

1182
01:08:27,120 --> 01:08:30,639
Speaker 2: the printing press comes along, it actually is books about

1183
01:08:30,680 --> 01:08:34,439
Speaker 2: witches and how you find witches that are the best selling.

1184
01:08:34,600 --> 01:08:38,160
Speaker 2: So just thinking because we have new capabilities that will

1185
01:08:38,200 --> 01:08:42,800
Speaker 2: necessarily use them at first in a net beneficial way.

1186
01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:45,640
Speaker 2: That's sadly a naive concept.

1187
01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:48,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you've verised such a good point that

1188
01:08:48,120 --> 01:08:50,120
Speaker 1: even this idea. I loved what you said that you

1189
01:08:50,160 --> 01:08:52,720
Speaker 1: said you wish your generation could have figured out how

1190
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:57,280
Speaker 1: to have not have these extreme polarizing conversations but actually

1191
01:08:57,320 --> 01:09:00,600
Speaker 1: find this healthy middle ground, whether that be through algorithms,

1192
01:09:00,640 --> 01:09:03,640
Speaker 1: whether that be through how we use technology. What is

1193
01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:06,639
Speaker 1: it that Why do we keep doing that? It almost

1194
01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:10,160
Speaker 1: feels like that's a repeated mistake where we come across

1195
01:09:11,040 --> 01:09:14,719
Speaker 1: this horizon of this new world, new technology, new ideas,

1196
01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:17,080
Speaker 1: but then we always use it for almost the same

1197
01:09:17,160 --> 01:09:21,400
Speaker 1: thing or something that feels you know, insignificant compared to

1198
01:09:21,439 --> 01:09:23,720
Speaker 1: what it could do. Where are we going wrong? Why

1199
01:09:23,760 --> 01:09:24,639
Speaker 1: can't we get that right?

1200
01:09:24,920 --> 01:09:28,160
Speaker 2: Well, it's kind of amazing how wealth humanity is done.

1201
01:09:28,600 --> 01:09:32,479
Speaker 2: You know, the you know, the violent death rate over

1202
01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:35,400
Speaker 2: hundreds of years have gone down a lot. You know,

1203
01:09:35,400 --> 01:09:39,439
Speaker 2: more recently, we've gotten vaccines out to children and gotten

1204
01:09:40,040 --> 01:09:42,559
Speaker 2: the annual death rate from ten million a year to

1205
01:09:42,560 --> 01:09:46,639
Speaker 2: turn the century down to about five million. Vaccines being

1206
01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:49,800
Speaker 2: the biggest, uh part of that, because we got them

1207
01:09:49,960 --> 01:09:53,280
Speaker 2: out to most of the world's children. So humanity for

1208
01:09:53,680 --> 01:09:57,160
Speaker 2: a being that grew up in these small hunter gatherer groups,

1209
01:09:57,760 --> 01:10:01,280
Speaker 2: now you know, we have a big city, complex technology,

1210
01:10:01,320 --> 01:10:03,920
Speaker 2: Our ability to get along, you know, in some ways

1211
01:10:03,960 --> 01:10:07,760
Speaker 2: has been good. You know, nuclear weapons that when I

1212
01:10:07,880 --> 01:10:10,599
Speaker 2: was young, you know, my greatest fear was, Okay, there

1213
01:10:10,680 --> 01:10:12,920
Speaker 2: was going to be a nuclear war. And I do

1214
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:17,040
Speaker 2: worry the current generation is that to have that exposure

1215
01:10:17,080 --> 01:10:19,400
Speaker 2: to it, so or you know, the Arms Treatise and

1216
01:10:19,479 --> 01:10:23,719
Speaker 2: you know, spending too much money on building those weapons.

1217
01:10:23,760 --> 01:10:26,639
Speaker 2: I do worry that we've lost track on that one.

1218
01:10:26,640 --> 01:10:30,439
Speaker 2: But at least you know, we haven't used those and

1219
01:10:31,160 --> 01:10:35,640
Speaker 2: you know, We've done pretty well so far, and you know,

1220
01:10:35,760 --> 01:10:38,719
Speaker 2: will we this time? I think this is is probably

1221
01:10:38,720 --> 01:10:43,320
Speaker 2: the hardest innovation because you know, we do have human limitations.

1222
01:10:43,360 --> 01:10:47,880
Speaker 2: They even I when I see an outrageous article against

1223
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:51,240
Speaker 2: somebody I don't like politically, I'm very tempted to click

1224
01:10:51,280 --> 01:10:53,320
Speaker 2: on it and have it tell me, Yeah, he's even

1225
01:10:53,400 --> 01:10:56,960
Speaker 2: stupider than you thought, or you know, he this is

1226
01:10:57,479 --> 01:11:02,640
Speaker 2: a mistake. You know, we're all subject to that, and

1227
01:11:03,320 --> 01:11:06,800
Speaker 2: we do like to form into groups. But you know,

1228
01:11:06,920 --> 01:11:13,200
Speaker 2: all of humanity ideally is a group where philanthropically and

1229
01:11:13,840 --> 01:11:16,760
Speaker 2: you know, government generosity, we can think of ourselves as

1230
01:11:16,800 --> 01:11:19,280
Speaker 2: being part of that, as opposed to much you know,

1231
01:11:19,360 --> 01:11:22,639
Speaker 2: our clan or race or nation.

1232
01:11:23,240 --> 01:11:26,479
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think on a global level it requires what

1233
01:11:26,520 --> 01:11:29,320
Speaker 1: you were saying, and on a personal level, it requires

1234
01:11:29,400 --> 01:11:35,479
Speaker 1: us to almost be able to evaluate, assimilate, assess, you know,

1235
01:11:35,920 --> 01:11:40,760
Speaker 1: have self awareness, allow for self reflection, space for you know,

1236
01:11:40,880 --> 01:11:43,120
Speaker 1: the things we don't have time for anymore. Right, you know,

1237
01:11:43,800 --> 01:11:46,759
Speaker 1: I was looking into something called the third space theory

1238
01:11:46,800 --> 01:11:49,080
Speaker 1: and how in the past you had your home, you

1239
01:11:49,160 --> 01:11:52,120
Speaker 1: had work, and then you had church or temple or

1240
01:11:52,160 --> 01:11:56,240
Speaker 1: community center, and how those three spaces, that third space

1241
01:11:56,320 --> 01:11:58,000
Speaker 1: was a place you could look back on home and

1242
01:11:58,080 --> 01:12:00,479
Speaker 1: work and say I could treat my work a little

1243
01:12:00,520 --> 01:12:03,360
Speaker 1: bit better, or I could have spoken to my colleague

1244
01:12:03,360 --> 01:12:06,920
Speaker 1: a bit better. And that third space allowed that time

1245
01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:09,080
Speaker 1: and energy where it was all about reflecting on how

1246
01:12:09,080 --> 01:12:12,080
Speaker 1: you could improve. But today we've lost three spaces into

1247
01:12:12,120 --> 01:12:14,760
Speaker 1: two into one where we work from home, live at home,

1248
01:12:14,840 --> 01:12:17,920
Speaker 1: and the screen is our third space. And so that

1249
01:12:18,040 --> 01:12:22,759
Speaker 1: lack of having a physical body or building that gives

1250
01:12:22,800 --> 01:12:28,519
Speaker 1: you permission to step back from your whole life, not

1251
01:12:28,600 --> 01:12:33,040
Speaker 1: play a role there and actually purvey what's going on

1252
01:12:33,120 --> 01:12:34,479
Speaker 1: in your life. We've lost that.

1253
01:12:34,720 --> 01:12:38,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a shame. Yeah, you know, the decline of

1254
01:12:38,120 --> 01:12:42,640
Speaker 2: religion is a very strong trend. You'd hope there'd be

1255
01:12:42,680 --> 01:12:47,160
Speaker 2: a modern religion that takes whatever's put people off and

1256
01:12:47,240 --> 01:12:51,320
Speaker 2: yet preserves kind of this golden rule and this okay,

1257
01:12:51,800 --> 01:12:54,639
Speaker 2: at a local community level, we're supposed to help each other.

1258
01:12:55,200 --> 01:12:59,519
Speaker 2: If you expect government to figure out how to solve things,

1259
01:13:00,160 --> 01:13:04,799
Speaker 2: you know, it's too bureaucratic. The local church based groups,

1260
01:13:05,040 --> 01:13:08,600
Speaker 2: oh this person needs help, I have extra time, you know,

1261
01:13:08,800 --> 01:13:13,280
Speaker 2: is way more effective. And so we expect too much

1262
01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:16,680
Speaker 2: from government in a way. So I hope we can

1263
01:13:16,760 --> 01:13:22,280
Speaker 2: re energize, you know, perhaps through a type of religious

1264
01:13:22,320 --> 01:13:26,640
Speaker 2: modernization or maybe just a community thing is maybe spiritual

1265
01:13:26,720 --> 01:13:34,000
Speaker 2: but not labeled as religion. That local engagement where you

1266
01:13:34,080 --> 01:13:37,120
Speaker 2: see other people that I think we need more.

1267
01:13:37,000 --> 01:13:39,640
Speaker 1: Of it, absolutely, absolutely, Bill. I've got to you for

1268
01:13:39,680 --> 01:13:42,760
Speaker 1: a couple more moments, and there's a few things I

1269
01:13:42,800 --> 01:13:46,240
Speaker 1: wanted to ask you. One was you talked about how

1270
01:13:46,439 --> 01:13:49,560
Speaker 1: in the book, how being the smallest person in the

1271
01:13:49,640 --> 01:13:52,599
Speaker 1: room and that status was something that you may be

1272
01:13:53,479 --> 01:13:56,200
Speaker 1: hid behind and your insecurity as were hidden behind. And

1273
01:13:56,240 --> 01:13:58,920
Speaker 1: I was wondering, is that something that you've been able

1274
01:13:58,960 --> 01:14:02,599
Speaker 1: to put down that god and take that away as

1275
01:14:02,640 --> 01:14:04,840
Speaker 1: time has moved on. How were you able to do that?

1276
01:14:05,080 --> 01:14:08,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've mellowed a little bit, you know, to learn

1277
01:14:08,600 --> 01:14:12,960
Speaker 2: how to work with people who are intelligent in different ways,

1278
01:14:13,600 --> 01:14:16,400
Speaker 2: you know Microsoft, I had to get marketing salespeople at

1279
01:14:16,400 --> 01:14:19,280
Speaker 2: the foundation, you know, people who go out in the

1280
01:14:19,320 --> 01:14:22,400
Speaker 2: field and do heroic work, and so my you know

1281
01:14:22,479 --> 01:14:26,160
Speaker 2: sort of single view of Okay, math cape capacity is

1282
01:14:26,439 --> 01:14:31,960
Speaker 2: you know, this this great thing. I've mellowed and been

1283
01:14:32,000 --> 01:14:34,160
Speaker 2: able to bring in different skill sets. But no, I

1284
01:14:34,479 --> 01:14:37,360
Speaker 2: I started off being pretty bad at that.

1285
01:14:38,080 --> 01:14:40,000
Speaker 1: What were those insecurities that you were hiding.

1286
01:14:40,120 --> 01:14:42,400
Speaker 2: Well, you tend to man each other people the way

1287
01:14:42,439 --> 01:14:45,719
Speaker 2: you manage yourself. And so when I make a mistake

1288
01:14:45,800 --> 01:14:49,080
Speaker 2: in programming her math, I'm very tough on myself, and

1289
01:14:49,160 --> 01:14:51,240
Speaker 2: you know, I'm like, you need to spend more time,

1290
01:14:51,320 --> 01:14:53,960
Speaker 2: you need to work harder, and it's kind of a

1291
01:14:54,000 --> 01:14:59,719
Speaker 2: tough love, don't fool yourself thing. And so my early

1292
01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:04,000
Speaker 2: man management style worked for people like me, but not

1293
01:15:04,160 --> 01:15:08,200
Speaker 2: as well for other people. And so year by year,

1294
01:15:08,720 --> 01:15:11,360
Speaker 2: you know, I did growth Microsoft. A lot of entrepreneurs,

1295
01:15:11,840 --> 01:15:15,000
Speaker 2: you know, don't stays as CEO and you have to

1296
01:15:15,040 --> 01:15:19,400
Speaker 2: bring in someone else. I wanted to do that, and

1297
01:15:19,439 --> 01:15:21,800
Speaker 2: so by bringing in some other people, I got better

1298
01:15:21,840 --> 01:15:24,880
Speaker 2: at that. I would say moving over to the Foundation

1299
01:15:25,600 --> 01:15:31,759
Speaker 2: was another level of how you bring in different mix

1300
01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:35,040
Speaker 2: of talent. And so yeah, I'm trying. I'm still trying.

1301
01:15:35,320 --> 01:15:38,960
Speaker 2: I'll be better a year from now.

1302
01:15:39,880 --> 01:15:41,920
Speaker 1: Well, I was most excited that you said there's still

1303
01:15:41,960 --> 01:15:45,000
Speaker 1: two more books coming after this one to talk about

1304
01:15:45,040 --> 01:15:47,280
Speaker 1: the different areas of your life. And I really enjoyed

1305
01:15:47,280 --> 01:15:49,080
Speaker 1: this one so much. I'm so excited for people to

1306
01:15:49,520 --> 01:15:51,880
Speaker 1: read it, to get to know you better, to get

1307
01:15:51,880 --> 01:15:54,320
Speaker 1: to know the people that have changed your life for

1308
01:15:54,360 --> 01:15:56,719
Speaker 1: the better and allow you to do all the incredible

1309
01:15:56,720 --> 01:15:59,479
Speaker 1: phenomenal work you do today. And I honestly am so

1310
01:15:59,560 --> 01:16:01,920
Speaker 1: inspired by the work you do today. And I really

1311
01:16:01,920 --> 01:16:04,639
Speaker 1: hope that I can be involved in some small ways.

1312
01:16:04,720 --> 01:16:06,120
Speaker 1: So I thank you deeply.

1313
01:16:06,360 --> 01:16:08,360
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, It's been fantastic.

1314
01:16:08,400 --> 01:16:10,600
Speaker 1: It means the world. Bill. We end every episode with

1315
01:16:10,640 --> 01:16:13,280
Speaker 1: a final five. These questions have to be asked in

1316
01:16:13,640 --> 01:16:17,880
Speaker 1: onst in one word to one sentence maximum. So Bill

1317
01:16:17,920 --> 01:16:20,120
Speaker 1: gates these of your final five. The first question is

1318
01:16:20,160 --> 01:16:23,040
Speaker 1: what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?

1319
01:16:23,600 --> 01:16:27,600
Speaker 2: You know, finding what you really enjoyed doing and hopefully

1320
01:16:28,200 --> 01:16:33,040
Speaker 2: there's some job that has that as opposed to know

1321
01:16:33,160 --> 01:16:35,479
Speaker 2: what jobs pay well or other people push you to.

1322
01:16:36,000 --> 01:16:39,120
Speaker 2: If you're doing something you really enjoy it, it's hard

1323
01:16:39,160 --> 01:16:39,519
Speaker 2: to beat.

1324
01:16:39,680 --> 01:16:41,120
Speaker 1: And you found that early.

1325
01:16:41,200 --> 01:16:44,760
Speaker 2: I was super lucky on that. You know, computers were

1326
01:16:44,800 --> 01:16:46,760
Speaker 2: there right when I needed them.

1327
01:16:47,920 --> 01:16:50,680
Speaker 1: Second question, what is the worst advice you've ever heard

1328
01:16:50,800 --> 01:16:51,240
Speaker 1: or received.

1329
01:16:51,479 --> 01:16:55,599
Speaker 2: People will tell you not to take risks, and it's

1330
01:16:55,720 --> 01:17:00,400
Speaker 2: very well intentioned, but there are contexts. You know, when

1331
01:17:00,439 --> 01:17:04,240
Speaker 2: you're young, you know, like people say, okay, it must

1332
01:17:04,240 --> 01:17:07,320
Speaker 2: have been scared to drop out, Not really. I mean

1333
01:17:07,360 --> 01:17:09,960
Speaker 2: I could have gone back. You know, there's no flesh

1334
01:17:09,960 --> 01:17:15,479
Speaker 2: wounds involved in failure, you know, so failure's you know,

1335
01:17:15,520 --> 01:17:19,000
Speaker 2: probably a better teacher and more of an okay thing.

1336
01:17:19,120 --> 01:17:23,840
Speaker 2: And I think this whole safety thing, physical safety, you know,

1337
01:17:24,400 --> 01:17:28,559
Speaker 2: emotional safety in many cases that we've gone too far.

1338
01:17:29,200 --> 01:17:31,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, but did dropping out that at that time feel

1339
01:17:31,960 --> 01:17:32,800
Speaker 1: like a big risk.

1340
01:17:32,880 --> 01:17:34,960
Speaker 2: No, it did not. Even the first time I felt

1341
01:17:34,960 --> 01:17:38,559
Speaker 2: it was when I was hiring people who moved their

1342
01:17:38,600 --> 01:17:40,680
Speaker 2: family and they had kids, and I was like, if

1343
01:17:40,680 --> 01:17:44,040
Speaker 2: I can't pay this guy his check, this is rude.

1344
01:17:44,560 --> 01:17:47,280
Speaker 2: You know, he's got a real problem, and I'm kind

1345
01:17:47,280 --> 01:17:50,479
Speaker 2: of implicitly promising him I've got this thing figured out.

1346
01:17:51,200 --> 01:17:52,120
Speaker 2: So that scared me.

1347
01:17:52,360 --> 01:17:55,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, was that There's a scene in the Social Network

1348
01:17:55,439 --> 01:17:58,960
Speaker 1: where you're on stage and Mark Zuckerberg's in your in

1349
01:17:59,000 --> 01:18:02,200
Speaker 1: the auditorium, and then they leave and they say the

1350
01:18:02,320 --> 01:18:04,439
Speaker 1: speaker just said the next Bill Gates could be sitting

1351
01:18:04,479 --> 01:18:06,679
Speaker 1: in this room, and then Mark goes, that is Bill Gates?

1352
01:18:06,720 --> 01:18:07,240
Speaker 1: Is that true?

1353
01:18:07,360 --> 01:18:11,080
Speaker 2: That is absolutely true? Mark and I have laughed about

1354
01:18:11,120 --> 01:18:14,439
Speaker 2: that a lot, that our experience at Harvard dropping out

1355
01:18:14,439 --> 01:18:17,800
Speaker 2: of Harvard, you know, telling people that Hey, we saw

1356
01:18:17,880 --> 01:18:21,360
Speaker 2: something other people didn't see, very very similar.

1357
01:18:22,640 --> 01:18:26,000
Speaker 1: Question number three, what would you say is the most

1358
01:18:26,120 --> 01:18:29,559
Speaker 1: important problem desmised people on the planet should be solving

1359
01:18:29,640 --> 01:18:30,040
Speaker 1: right now?

1360
01:18:30,240 --> 01:18:32,720
Speaker 2: There's many candidates, you know, making sure we don't use

1361
01:18:32,800 --> 01:18:38,400
Speaker 2: nuclear weapons, avoid bioterrorism, climate change, caring for the poorest,

1362
01:18:38,520 --> 01:18:40,880
Speaker 2: which we're kind of losing that, But I would say

1363
01:18:40,920 --> 01:18:45,559
Speaker 2: shaping AI has for me risen to the top of

1364
01:18:45,600 --> 01:18:48,559
Speaker 2: that list. We need to do all those. We can't

1365
01:18:48,600 --> 01:18:53,479
Speaker 2: just skip, you know, any of those. But this one

1366
01:18:54,160 --> 01:18:57,320
Speaker 2: is is going to be a very big deal in

1367
01:18:57,880 --> 01:18:59,120
Speaker 2: the in the next decade.

1368
01:18:59,560 --> 01:19:02,840
Speaker 1: And what would be your advice to the biggest business

1369
01:19:02,920 --> 01:19:04,479
Speaker 1: leaders in the world in regard to that?

1370
01:19:04,640 --> 01:19:06,719
Speaker 2: Well, I don't think you can count on them. Their

1371
01:19:06,760 --> 01:19:10,679
Speaker 2: competitive framework is to go full speed, and so only

1372
01:19:10,760 --> 01:19:13,679
Speaker 2: government's in a position to say, wait a minute, slowed down,

1373
01:19:14,439 --> 01:19:17,880
Speaker 2: you know, for the good stuff. You want them to

1374
01:19:17,920 --> 01:19:21,599
Speaker 2: lower the price and get it done sooner, and so

1375
01:19:21,680 --> 01:19:23,800
Speaker 2: we can't. Although yes, they should be part of the

1376
01:19:23,840 --> 01:19:28,719
Speaker 2: dialogue and they're humans and citizens too, but you can't

1377
01:19:28,760 --> 01:19:34,160
Speaker 2: count on them because the metric for them is to

1378
01:19:34,200 --> 01:19:35,120
Speaker 2: go full speed.

1379
01:19:35,439 --> 01:19:39,000
Speaker 1: Question number four, what is your favorite mental health habit?

1380
01:19:39,320 --> 01:19:40,840
Speaker 2: You know It's a very big deal for me to

1381
01:19:40,840 --> 01:19:47,040
Speaker 2: get time reading and thinking by myself, whether it's on

1382
01:19:47,080 --> 01:19:49,600
Speaker 2: a walk or going driving. When I would see you

1383
01:19:49,640 --> 01:19:54,000
Speaker 2: at Microsoft, I took two full weeks think weeks one

1384
01:19:54,040 --> 01:19:56,760
Speaker 2: every six months, where I would just go off by

1385
01:19:56,800 --> 01:20:01,200
Speaker 2: myself and think, okay, is Microsoft on track? What are

1386
01:20:01,240 --> 01:20:05,759
Speaker 2: the trends? Towards the end, I'd write a memo which

1387
01:20:05,920 --> 01:20:09,960
Speaker 2: actually was kind of valuable as we navigated the twists

1388
01:20:09,960 --> 01:20:12,920
Speaker 2: and turns like when the internet comes along, or you know,

1389
01:20:13,000 --> 01:20:16,000
Speaker 2: software is not reliable enough. You know, I need that

1390
01:20:16,240 --> 01:20:21,320
Speaker 2: time to think. Even though I love quick thinking, you know,

1391
01:20:21,360 --> 01:20:25,360
Speaker 2: being in a meeting and spotting a mistake. Most of

1392
01:20:25,400 --> 01:20:28,200
Speaker 2: my good work has come from the kind of slow

1393
01:20:28,320 --> 01:20:32,160
Speaker 2: thinking where I'm off being reflective and maybe coming up

1394
01:20:32,200 --> 01:20:36,960
Speaker 2: with some non obvious ideas. You know, maybe it's a

1395
01:20:37,000 --> 01:20:39,920
Speaker 2: little bit my you know, being on the spectrum. I

1396
01:20:40,560 --> 01:20:43,679
Speaker 2: need that refreshment, you know. And I see my schedule

1397
01:20:43,720 --> 01:20:46,800
Speaker 2: with lots of social interaction for a week, then I'll

1398
01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:49,439
Speaker 2: try and make sure the next week has a little

1399
01:20:49,439 --> 01:20:54,200
Speaker 2: bit less of that. But you know, to maintain creativity,

1400
01:20:54,280 --> 01:20:59,200
Speaker 2: you have to have some calmness and be not behind.

1401
01:20:59,320 --> 01:21:01,680
Speaker 2: If you feel like you're behind like you turn on

1402
01:21:01,760 --> 01:21:06,759
Speaker 2: your email like, ah, oh, I'm late. You know that

1403
01:21:06,760 --> 01:21:11,640
Speaker 2: that your creativity gets gets squeezed out one of the

1404
01:21:11,640 --> 01:21:12,320
Speaker 2: first things.

1405
01:21:12,560 --> 01:21:14,439
Speaker 1: And does that think we need to be in nature?

1406
01:21:14,560 --> 01:21:17,800
Speaker 1: Are you away from everything? Is it? Are you simply thinking?

1407
01:21:17,800 --> 01:21:19,440
Speaker 1: Are you taking books? Are you janeling?

1408
01:21:19,560 --> 01:21:21,800
Speaker 2: Or is it I'm taking books to read, but I'm

1409
01:21:21,800 --> 01:21:25,200
Speaker 2: also taking very long walks on your own and just

1410
01:21:25,240 --> 01:21:28,439
Speaker 2: thinking about things. And I love I take a tablet

1411
01:21:28,520 --> 01:21:32,200
Speaker 2: of paper and write things down quite a bit. And

1412
01:21:32,520 --> 01:21:36,080
Speaker 2: you know, I'm pretty religious. I'm not taking phone calls.

1413
01:21:36,479 --> 01:21:41,840
Speaker 2: I'm not browsing the news. You know, the news can wait,

1414
01:21:42,280 --> 01:21:45,479
Speaker 2: you know, And I'm off by myself twenty twenty four

1415
01:21:45,479 --> 01:21:48,960
Speaker 2: hours that whole time. Somebody can stick some food in.

1416
01:21:49,880 --> 01:21:53,800
Speaker 2: But and you know that's kind of extreme. You know,

1417
01:21:53,840 --> 01:21:58,000
Speaker 2: there's people like Kerrari who meditate kind of an unbelievable one.

1418
01:21:58,040 --> 01:22:02,479
Speaker 2: I almost envy him. I don't think I would go

1419
01:22:02,600 --> 01:22:06,160
Speaker 2: that far. But we should be more in his direction

1420
01:22:06,600 --> 01:22:07,120
Speaker 2: than we are.

1421
01:22:07,520 --> 01:22:11,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. And what's the book you've gifted most? Actually,

1422
01:22:11,120 --> 01:22:13,599
Speaker 1: I'm intrigued because you're such a big reader. You recommend

1423
01:22:13,640 --> 01:22:16,200
Speaker 1: so many great books. What's the book you've gifted to people?

1424
01:22:16,240 --> 01:22:17,120
Speaker 1: Close to you the most.

1425
01:22:17,400 --> 01:22:20,720
Speaker 2: There's a Stephen Pinker book called Better Angels of Our

1426
01:22:20,800 --> 01:22:25,920
Speaker 2: Nature that talks about even though in the short run

1427
01:22:25,960 --> 01:22:29,479
Speaker 2: we see how tough things are. If we zoom out

1428
01:22:29,520 --> 01:22:32,120
Speaker 2: a little bit and say, okay, two hundred years ago,

1429
01:22:32,640 --> 01:22:36,000
Speaker 2: to be a woman, to be gay, you know, thirty

1430
01:22:36,080 --> 01:22:42,160
Speaker 2: percent of child children die. You know, lifespan is less

1431
01:22:42,160 --> 01:22:45,240
Speaker 2: than fifty years. You know that's not saying there's a

1432
01:22:45,320 --> 01:22:50,360
Speaker 2: guarantee that those bad things we talked about won't happen.

1433
01:22:51,000 --> 01:22:55,320
Speaker 2: But people are a little overwrought and saying, okay, you

1434
01:22:55,320 --> 01:22:58,880
Speaker 2: know this approach to government is failing. Maybe we should

1435
01:22:58,880 --> 01:23:03,240
Speaker 2: try something radical like not you know, being fully democratic.

1436
01:23:03,479 --> 01:23:06,160
Speaker 2: I'm like, whoa wait a minute here, Yes, we need

1437
01:23:06,200 --> 01:23:11,479
Speaker 2: to feel bad about the things we're not doing, but

1438
01:23:11,560 --> 01:23:14,920
Speaker 2: we also need to have a perspective the system of

1439
01:23:15,280 --> 01:23:22,040
Speaker 2: scientific inquiry and democracy and widening our circle of care,

1440
01:23:22,880 --> 01:23:28,400
Speaker 2: you know, beyond our family, clan nation, as we discover

1441
01:23:28,520 --> 01:23:31,960
Speaker 2: new things and we can share more resources. That really

1442
01:23:32,120 --> 01:23:38,760
Speaker 2: is working. You know, it sounds naive to say that,

1443
01:23:38,920 --> 01:23:41,760
Speaker 2: but you know, the books that really go through that,

1444
01:23:43,000 --> 01:23:47,200
Speaker 2: I find, you know, a guide how I think about

1445
01:23:47,240 --> 01:23:47,799
Speaker 2: the world.

1446
01:23:47,960 --> 01:23:51,599
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Fifth and final question, if you could create one

1447
01:23:51,720 --> 01:23:54,479
Speaker 1: law that everyone in the world had to follow. What

1448
01:23:54,520 --> 01:23:55,000
Speaker 1: would it be.

1449
01:23:55,280 --> 01:23:58,800
Speaker 2: Well, if you look at all these religious texts, you know,

1450
01:23:58,840 --> 01:24:02,200
Speaker 2: I'd say the the thing they all eventually come back

1451
01:24:02,240 --> 01:24:04,840
Speaker 2: to is the Golden rule, which is to treat people

1452
01:24:04,880 --> 01:24:07,160
Speaker 2: how you would like to be treated. You know, I mean,

1453
01:24:07,280 --> 01:24:10,320
Speaker 2: say that you're about to be born, and you don't

1454
01:24:10,320 --> 01:24:12,120
Speaker 2: know if you're going to be born a woman or

1455
01:24:12,160 --> 01:24:15,600
Speaker 2: in Africa. This is a thing that Warren Buffett taught me.

1456
01:24:16,000 --> 01:24:19,320
Speaker 2: You know what, you get to construct the world and

1457
01:24:19,360 --> 01:24:22,599
Speaker 2: how fair it is, and then you we will randomly

1458
01:24:22,680 --> 01:24:26,760
Speaker 2: pick and you will be born in some place in

1459
01:24:26,800 --> 01:24:31,160
Speaker 2: some way. And you know, I think the construct that

1460
01:24:31,200 --> 01:24:36,360
Speaker 2: would guide the world you'd want for that is very

1461
01:24:36,400 --> 01:24:40,240
Speaker 2: much going back to that Golden rule. Not okay, let's

1462
01:24:40,240 --> 01:24:44,400
Speaker 2: win wars, you know, let's outcompete, or you know, have

1463
01:24:44,880 --> 01:24:48,640
Speaker 2: more money or resources than other people. And so it's

1464
01:24:48,720 --> 01:24:51,240
Speaker 2: kind of a it's one of the few universal truths

1465
01:24:51,520 --> 01:24:55,080
Speaker 2: that we should have that guide our behavior.

1466
01:24:55,600 --> 01:24:57,680
Speaker 1: I love that, Bill, Thank you so much for your

1467
01:24:57,680 --> 01:25:00,519
Speaker 1: time went on purpose today and genuinely say grateful for

1468
01:25:00,560 --> 01:25:02,880
Speaker 1: your time and energy. It was thrilling to talk to you.

1469
01:25:02,920 --> 01:25:05,000
Speaker 1: And I love getting an early copy of the book

1470
01:25:05,000 --> 01:25:06,679
Speaker 1: and being ahead of the world on it. So thank

1471
01:25:06,720 --> 01:25:07,240
Speaker 1: you so much.

1472
01:25:07,320 --> 01:25:10,400
Speaker 2: Well, you know I've loved our conversation, so look forward

1473
01:25:10,439 --> 01:25:10,800
Speaker 2: to more.

1474
01:25:11,040 --> 01:25:13,880
Speaker 1: Thank you. If you enjoyed this podcast, you're going to

1475
01:25:14,080 --> 01:25:18,360
Speaker 1: love my conversation with Michelle Obama where she opens up

1476
01:25:18,439 --> 01:25:21,479
Speaker 1: on how to stay with your partner when they're changing,

1477
01:25:21,840 --> 01:25:24,599
Speaker 1: and the four check ins you should be doing in

1478
01:25:24,640 --> 01:25:27,680
Speaker 1: your relationship. We also talk about how to deal with

1479
01:25:27,800 --> 01:25:31,400
Speaker 1: relationships when they're under stressed. If you're going through something

1480
01:25:31,479 --> 01:25:34,800
Speaker 1: right now with your partner or someone you're seeing, this

1481
01:25:34,840 --> 01:25:36,120
Speaker 1: is the episode for you.

1482
01:25:36,160 --> 01:25:39,160
Speaker 3: No wonder our kids are struggling. We have a new

1483
01:25:39,240 --> 01:25:43,200
Speaker 3: technology and we've just taken it in hookline and Sinker,

1484
01:25:43,560 --> 01:25:45,320
Speaker 3: and we have to be mindful.

1485
01:25:44,880 --> 01:25:45,759
Speaker 2: For our kids.

1486
01:25:46,120 --> 01:25:49,559
Speaker 3: They'll just be thumbing through this stuff. You know, their

1487
01:25:49,680 --> 01:25:50,879
Speaker 3: mind's never sleeping.