Noel Brown: Warning. The following episode contains adult language, discussion of miracles,
Noel Brown: arranged marriages, Channing Tatum, and disclosure of at least one
Noel Brown: Bible approved stoning. Sensitive listeners take care.
Mangesh Hattikudur: So here's a confession I'm gonna make right at the
Mangesh Hattikudur: top of the show. I don't believe in astrology, but
Mangesh Hattikudur: astrology keeps happening to me. Now everyone says podcasting is
Mangesh Hattikudur: the most visual medium, so I made you a slideshow
Mangesh Hattikudur: to try to explain. This is the real Skyline Drive.
Mangesh Hattikudur: It's in Delaware, and growing up when I couldn't sleep,
Mangesh Hattikudur: it's one of the many places I would drive to
Mangesh Hattikudur: look at the stars. This is the moon. It rules
Mangesh Hattikudur: our emotions. This is Mercury in retrograde. You know it
Mangesh Hattikudur: because it makes life miserable. This is Rahu and Ketu.
Mangesh Hattikudur: They're important and mischievous nodes in Vedic astrology. They're prominent
Mangesh Hattikudur: in Donald Trump's horoscope, and they're also responsible for Paris Hilton.
Mangesh Hattikudur: This is me. I was born May 1, 1979. This
Mangesh Hattikudur: is the sky at the time I was born. In
Mangesh Hattikudur: Western astrology, it makes me a Taurus. These are some
Mangesh Hattikudur: other Tauruses: Pol Pot, Ayatollah Khomeini, Saddam Hussein, Adolph Hitler,
Mangesh Hattikudur: Barbra Streisand. The fact that we're all Tauruses has made
Mangesh Hattikudur: me doubt astrology for a very long time. These are
Mangesh Hattikudur: my parents. They've been hitched fifty-one years and every morning
Mangesh Hattikudur: my dad makes my mom a cup of tea, and
Mangesh Hattikudur: then they sit and do the spelling bee in pencil. It's adorable, right?
Mangesh Hattikudur: These are my parents calling in the middle of this recording.
Umesh Hattikudur: Hey Mangesh, I think you had called, so I was calling back.
Umesh Hattikudur: Give me a call.
Mangesh Hattikudur: This is India. When I was growing up, words like "yoga"
Mangesh Hattikudur: and "meditation" and "turmeric" and "astrology"? These were words that were
Mangesh Hattikudur: part of my Indian life. But they weren't a part
Mangesh Hattikudur: of my going-to-school fitting-into-America one. But now? Now everyone has
Mangesh Hattikudur: an opinion about it.
street interviews: I'm a Gemini, which I've heard is bad. I'm a Libra,
street interviews: so I'm indecisive. That's definitely true.
street interviews: I'm a Taurus. I find the start to be beautiful.
street interviews: It sucks that we can't see you stars in New
street interviews: York because of all the lights.
street interviews: I know a few people who are kind of into it,
street interviews: and they're like, asked, yo, did you see the horoscope today?
street interviews: And I'm like, nah, bro, not really, I'm not worried
street interviews: about what the horoscope says.
street interviews: I know a lot of people don't believe in it,
street interviews: but why can't people just believe in things for fun,
street interviews: Like it doesn't have to be backed up by anything.
street interviews: If you believe in fantasy football, why can't you believe
street interviews: in astrology.
Mangesh Hattikudur: A few months ago, my friends and I set out
Mangesh Hattikudur: to make this show about astrology. We wanted to run
Mangesh Hattikudur: around the city and have some wild adventures and understand
Mangesh Hattikudur: why after so many millennia, people still looked to the
Mangesh Hattikudur: sky for answers.
Mangesh Hattikudur: This is an astrologer I met in Queens. He promised me,
Mangesh Hattikudur: you're gonna dig this show.
Dr. Rakesh Kumar: I think if you do your own show will become
Dr. Rakesh Kumar: a super hit, no doubt about it.
Mangesh Hattikudur: This is a graph of how much I believe in
Mangesh Hattikudur: astrology before our session. Not that much. This is a
Mangesh Hattikudur: graph of how much I started believing thirty minutes later
Mangesh Hattikudur: when something horrible he said came true.
Dr. Rakesh Kumar: That's why I asked again from the time he started
Dr. Rakesh Kumar: a couple of years back. Still now, the situation doesn't
Dr. Rakesh Kumar: look good.
Mangesh Hattikudur: This is me traveling halfway around the world to answer
Mangesh Hattikudur: the biggest question my entire life. This is a shop
Mangesh Hattikudur: in India where your fortune is waiting for you. It
Mangesh Hattikudur: was written centuries ago and put on a shelf and
Mangesh Hattikudur: the shopkeepers know which one to pull because it's coded
Mangesh Hattikudur: by your thumb print and the time you're going to walk
Mangesh Hattikudur: through that door. This, this is me walking through that door.
Mangesh Hattikudur: I'm Mangesh Hattikudur. From Kaleidoscope and iHeart Radio, this is
Mangesh Hattikudur: Skyline Drive.
Mangesh Hattikudur: CHAPTER ONE: LEAVE YOUR AXE AT HOME
A.J. Jacobs: So I figured, you know, I do need to stone
A.J. Jacobs: an astrologer. And there are a bunch of astrologers on
A.J. Jacobs: the upper west Side. It was set up with these...
Mangesh Hattikudur: (laughing) Wait! So, you're looking for an astrologer to stone?!
A.J. Jacobs: Oh yeah, well I needed to check it off the list. I've got a hundred things to check off...
Mangesh Hattikudur: You know, already this reporting and starting off weirder than
Mangesh Hattikudur: I thought. It's ten o'clock on a bright summer day
Mangesh Hattikudur: and I'm standing here with A. J. Jacobs.
A.J. Jacobs: I am an author and a journalist and a Pisces.
Mangesh Hattikudur: In addition to being a Pisces-- or technically on the
Mangesh Hattikudur: cusp of Pisces and Aries, A.J. is a friend... and
Mangesh Hattikudur: he's one of my favorite writers. I've come to meet
Mangesh Hattikudur: him in this neighborhood because in 2007, he wrote a
Mangesh Hattikudur: New York Times bestseller called The Year of Living Biblically.
Mangesh Hattikudur: The book was a phenomenon. It came out in multiple languages,
Mangesh Hattikudur: There were magazine and TV pieces about it. It was
Mangesh Hattikudur: such a big deal that at one point Marlon Wayans
Mangesh Hattikudur: was lined up to play A.J. in the network TV version.
A.J. Jacobs: The premise was that I would follow all the rules
A.J. Jacobs: of the Bible as literally as possible. So that meant
A.J. Jacobs: the famous ones: like the Ten Commandments and 'love your neighbor,'
A.J. Jacobs: but also the lesser known ones like 'you cannot wear
A.J. Jacobs: clothes made of two different kinds of fabrics,' so I
A.J. Jacobs: had to get rid of all of my poly-cotton blends.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Giving up poly-cotton blends is just one of the hardships A.J.
Mangesh Hattikudur: endured in the name of journalism. He also grew a massive beard,
Mangesh Hattikudur: shoved a wild bird so he could steal its egg
Mangesh Hattikudur: and say a prayer on it, and he followed 700
Mangesh Hattikudur: other Biblical rules literally in an attempt to understand religion.
Mangesh Hattikudur: And somewhere along the way he decided that to fully
Mangesh Hattikudur: appreciate the Bible...
A.J. Jacobs: ... you actually had to stone people who committed these abominations.
A.J. Jacobs: And the abominations included adultery, breaking the Sabbath, but also astrology, witchcraft, divination,
A.J. Jacobs: they're all sort of lumped together.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Just the fact that he decided to stone someone was
Mangesh Hattikudur: a shock to me. I mean, A.J. is one of
Mangesh Hattikudur: the nicest people I know, but that's how committed he was.
A.J. Jacobs: I didn't want to go to jail for assault. I
A.J. Jacobs: just wanted to check it off my list, you know,
A.J. Jacobs: stone an astrologer: check! So I walked by this astrologer
A.J. Jacobs: on the street and just very subtly dropped a pebble
A.J. Jacobs: so that it landed on her shoe
Mangesh Hattikudur: (kind of a drive by stoning)
A.J. Jacobs: And I was thinking, she's probably not even gonna notice
A.J. Jacobs: because I just kept walking. Oh she noticed, and she's like:
A.J. Jacobs: "what what's going on? Why did you do that?!" And
A.J. Jacobs: so I had to tell the truth, because I was
A.J. Jacobs: following the Bible. I thought maybe she'll think it's funny.
A.J. Jacobs: She did not think it's funny. She was pissed. She
A.J. Jacobs: started yelling at me like, "F you, go to F'in hell!"
A.J. Jacobs: I was rattled. Even if you're trying to stone someone
A.J. Jacobs: in modern day using pebbles, people don't like it. That's
A.J. Jacobs: a lesson, that's a takeaway.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Rule #1: don't stone an astrologer. This wasn't the advice
Mangesh Hattikudur: I'd come for, but I wrote it down anyway. The
Mangesh Hattikudur: thing I'd really wanted to know; the reason I traveled
Mangesh Hattikudur: all the way out here to meet with A.J. was
Mangesh Hattikudur: to ask him how to make this show... because doing
Mangesh Hattikudur: a show on astrology? It actually makes me nervous. Like,
Mangesh Hattikudur: is there a way to talk about how accurate a
Mangesh Hattikudur: fortune-telling parrot could possibly be? Or is there a way
Mangesh Hattikudur: to joke about whether an astro curse can make you bald?
Mangesh Hattikudur: Because even if the show makes me look silly, like,
Mangesh Hattikudur: I don't want to get disinvited from a family wedding
Mangesh Hattikudur: because I said something that hurt friends or family... or
Mangesh Hattikudur: really anyone who puts stock in the subject. [to AJ]
Mangesh Hattikudur: "As I'm trying to uncover threads and things like how
Mangesh Hattikudur: do you tell a story delicately where you're not offending
Mangesh Hattikudur: people but still engaging with the subject?"
A.J. Jacobs: I had that exact dilemma when I was writing The
A.J. Jacobs: Year of Living Biblically, because I was coming in as
A.J. Jacobs: an agnostic writing about religion. My big overall advice is
A.J. Jacobs: go in with deep curiosity. Don't go in with an
A.J. Jacobs: agenda that you're trying to disprove or prove astrology. You're
A.J. Jacobs: just an explorer. So go in with no axe. Leave
A.J. Jacobs: your axes at home.
Mangesh Hattikudur: That I think I can do. After the break, we
Mangesh Hattikudur: talk to an astrologer who doesn't believe in astrology, take
Mangesh Hattikudur: a subway ride to Queens and hear this from my mom:
Lalita Hattikudur: "I felt like a Jersey Cow."
Mangesh Hattikudur: CHAPTER TWO: JUST FOR FUNDS
Channing Tatum: Is the phone listening? Is that? Are you listening through
Channing Tatum: the phone? Pattern? AI? The algorithm? That is The Pattern?
Mangesh Hattikudur: Back in 2020, one of my friends shot me a
Mangesh Hattikudur: text linking to this video of Channing Tatum. The actor
Mangesh Hattikudur: had uploaded it himself after using an astrology app called
Mangesh Hattikudur: The Pattern. But when Channing's readings became a little too
Mangesh Hattikudur: spot on, he freaked out.
Channing Tatum: Are you listening through my phone? And then just regurgitating
Channing Tatum: the stuff that I'm afraid of? And stuff? You know what?
Channing Tatum: Pattern People-- you should just call me. I need answers
Channing Tatum: right now.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Poor Channing. I don't know if he ever got his answers,
Mangesh Hattikudur: but what I do know is that astrology is ubiquitous
Mangesh Hattikudur: and lucrative. One venture capital investor told The New York
Mangesh Hattikudur: Times that the app Co-star, a Pattern competitor, had the
Mangesh Hattikudur: potential to be a twenty four billion dollar business, claiming
Mangesh Hattikudur: he could one day be as big as Spotify. But
Mangesh Hattikudur: if astrology is as big an opportunity as everyone's saying,
Mangesh Hattikudur: I'm wondering if my company should get into the act.
Mangesh Hattikudur: After all, it feels so obvious that-- I don't know--
Mangesh Hattikudur: even a 9 year old could see the potential? So
Mangesh Hattikudur: I decided to try to pitch out on my 9
Mangesh Hattikudur: year old.
Ruby: Hey Anu, why did you bring me to this closet?
Mangesh Hattikudur: I brought you to this closet because I wanted to
Mangesh Hattikudur: pitch you on an astrology app? Are you ready for it?
Ruby: Booooooo...
Mangesh Hattikudur: Why is that? What do you think about astrology?
Ruby: It's dumb.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Oh gosh, well, maybe you're not the right person for it,
Mangesh Hattikudur: but the reason I came to you is because you actually
Mangesh Hattikudur: have a bank. You spend only my money. You seem
Mangesh Hattikudur: to hoard all your money. And you keep all of
Mangesh Hattikudur: Henry's money as well, which you charge him a small
Mangesh Hattikudur: fee for. So I thought you might be the savvaest
Mangesh Hattikudur: person in this family. Is it okay if I pitch
Mangesh Hattikudur: you an astrology app?
Ruby: Uhhh... Okay.
Mangesh Hattikudur: So here's my case for it. These aren't your grandmother's horoscopes, right?
Mangesh Hattikudur: They're talking to you in this very fresh and fun way. Uh,
Mangesh Hattikudur: they're up to the minute with the latest NASA data.
Mangesh Hattikudur: They look beautiful, and they have a chat feature where
Mangesh Hattikudur: astrologers will chat with you live about your birth charts. Right?
Mangesh Hattikudur: And then by 2019, right, like you can see astrology is
Mangesh Hattikudur: starting to take over. Bumble, this dating app, they start
Mangesh Hattikudur: allowing you to sort your matches by birth signs, so
Mangesh Hattikudur: like you could say, like I only want to date
Mangesh Hattikudur: Tauruses or I only want to date Geminis or whatever.
Mangesh Hattikudur: In fact, astrology in 2019 was a 2.2 billion dollar market.
Mangesh Hattikudur: What do you think about that?
Ruby: Mind blown!
Mangesh Hattikudur: I can't tell whether you're serious or not, but apps
Mangesh Hattikudur: made forty million dollars that year. And in fact, the
Mangesh Hattikudur: next year, when COVID really hit, people started searching for
Mangesh Hattikudur: birth charts and astrology. Both of those searches hit five
Mangesh Hattikudur: year peaks on Google. So it's no wonder that all
Mangesh Hattikudur: these venture capital funds had started investing in astrology apps
Mangesh Hattikudur: early and then continue to invest... and I'm here to
Mangesh Hattikudur: ask you to invest in my astrology app. What do
Mangesh Hattikudur: you think?
Ruby: Um, Anu... I'm spending my money on a skateboard, not
Ruby: on you.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Okay, well, so Ruby, what type of business would you
Mangesh Hattikudur: invest in?
Ruby: Bubble guuuuuummmm!
Mangesh Hattikudur: [laughing] Okay.
Mangesh Hattikudur: CHAPTER THREE: TRUTH AND POETRY
Mangesh Hattikudur: When you go out with a recorder in hand, it's
Mangesh Hattikudur: interesting to see who will talk on tape. We found scientists
Mangesh Hattikudur: at NASA who actually wouldn't talk about their interest in
Mangesh Hattikudur: astrology to us because they were afraid of losing their jobs.
Mangesh Hattikudur: We found PhDs and post-docs who were worried that if
Mangesh Hattikudur: they talked at all to our podcasts, even to say
Mangesh Hattikudur: that astrology was nonsense, they would face professional repercussions. I mean,
Mangesh Hattikudur: it is insanity what a lightning rod astrology can be.
Mangesh Hattikudur: But luckily we found Jaime Green.
Jaime Green: My grandfather showed me a little half of a peanut
Jaime Green: that had this germ in it, and he said, that's going
Jaime Green: to become a plant. And it was just things like
Jaime Green: that that got me interested in the world, which is
Jaime Green: the same as being interested in science.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Jaime is a celebrated science writer
Jaime Green: and I'm Sagittarius, although you would not know it from
Jaime Green: looking at anything about my life. I've got some planet
Jaime Green: in Capricorn that explains why I'm not an impulsive adventurer.
Mangesh Hattikudur: She has a new book coming out called The Possibility
Mangesh Hattikudur: of Life and she's co editor of the annual Best
Mangesh Hattikudur: American Science and Nature writing volumes, and whether it's chatting
Mangesh Hattikudur: about our garden or the way we perceive constellations, her
Mangesh Hattikudur: capacity for wonder is incredible... and infectious. But perhaps what
Mangesh Hattikudur: I love most about Jaime was how she clarified that
Mangesh Hattikudur: science and astrology don't actually have to be at odds
Mangesh Hattikudur: with one another, that we don't need science to disprove astrology.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Not that she thinks astrology is a science exactly scientifically:
Jaime Green: In terms of astronomy, astrology doesn't hold a lot of
Jaime Green: meaning because it's all very human centric. From the point
Jaime Green: of view of looking at the stars from Earth.
Mangesh Hattikudur: The stars are light years apart. They have no real
Mangesh Hattikudur: relation to each other except in our minds. But that relationship,
Mangesh Hattikudur: the one we make up while looking up at the stars,
Mangesh Hattikudur: that means something... or it can mean something, if you
Mangesh Hattikudur: want it to.
Jaime Green: It's like a much more eloquent, poetic personal fortune cookie.
Jaime Green: And I don't mean that disparagingly. I just think that
Jaime Green: it's for you to take from it what you need.
Jaime Green: And like we don't think it's anti-science to say a
Jaime Green: poem is true. I think that's where science gets defensive,
Jaime Green: is when people say that astrology is a science and
Jaime Green: has physical roots in the stars. It's like, oh, no
Jaime Green: it doesn't. But it's true the way a poem is true.
Mangesh Hattikudur: I can't tell you how much I love that. I mean,
Mangesh Hattikudur: as someone who's a skeptic but also a romantic, this
Mangesh Hattikudur: idea that astrology is true the same way a poem
Mangesh Hattikudur: is true? That feels right to me. And it's something
Mangesh Hattikudur: my friend Pete also said when I talked to him.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Pete's deal is, well, it's complicated.
Peter Bauer: So like even though I was like a semi-successful musician,
Peter Bauer: I was like, I need to make money somehow, like
Peter Bauer: right now. Like what other skills do I have? Oh,
Peter Bauer: I do astrology.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Pete is a rock star; like a real rock star.
Mangesh Hattikudur: He used to be in The Walkman, that massive seminal
Mangesh Hattikudur: Indie rock band. And yes, his backup career was professional astrology.
Mangesh Hattikudur: When he was younger, he trained with this big famous guru.
Mangesh Hattikudur: He was living in his guesthouse and that's where he
Mangesh Hattikudur: learned to read star charts.
Peter Bauer: You would take them back to him and he would
Peter Bauer: say like, "no, it's the dumbest thing I've ever heard."
Peter Bauer: Like "you're wrong." You know? And then he kind of,
Peter Bauer: in very traditional style, like yell-at-the-apprentice sort of thing..."
Mangesh Hattikudur: Kung-fu master thing?
Peter Bauer: Right. Very very karate kid kind of feeling, right.
Mangesh Hattikudur: But here's the other thing: Pete doesn't even believe in astrology.
Mangesh Hattikudur: He's a rock star who does astrology for politicians and
Mangesh Hattikudur: World Bank economists and all sorts of interesting folks, but
Mangesh Hattikudur: he doesn't believe in it.
Peter Bauer: It's this art to me. And I don't mean that dismissively. Like,
Peter Bauer: that's like my whole being. Like, that's what I care about.
Mangesh Hattikudur: What he believes really is in a more vivid reality,
Mangesh Hattikudur: a kind of embroidered view of the world. Pete and
Mangesh Hattikudur: I both spent formative years in India, and we have
Mangesh Hattikudur: a certain comfort in the magical.
Peter Bauer: If you read like a hundred Years of Solitude or
Peter Bauer: something like that, world of like this kind of magical Columbia.
Peter Bauer: You know, it's like that felt very similar in a
Peter Bauer: lot of ways to how we were raised.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Magical explanations have been woven throughout my life, like why
Mangesh Hattikudur: was my family's little community in India so well off
Mangesh Hattikudur: a century ago? You could say it's because of luck
Mangesh Hattikudur: or global economics. You could say it's because when the
Mangesh Hattikudur: Civil War was happening in the US, England actually needed
Mangesh Hattikudur: more sources of cotton to replace all the cotton that
Mangesh Hattikudur: the US had been producing. And my family they just
Mangesh Hattikudur: happened to be in the right place to manage mills
Mangesh Hattikudur: and plant cotton on their land. Or you could tell
Mangesh Hattikudur: the story in a way that's way, way more magical:
Mangesh Hattikudur: that a great great ancestor had this powerful vision from
Mangesh Hattikudur: a goddess that if he chanted a simple string of
Mangesh Hattikudur: prayers every single night, and he taught all his children
Mangesh Hattikudur: to sing it, and they taught all their children, his
Mangesh Hattikudur: people would be protected for years. And for most of
Mangesh Hattikudur: my life, I only knew that second story.
Mangesh Hattikudur: CHAPTER FOUR: MOPEDS AND MINI-SKIRTS
Mangesh Hattikudur: Arranged marriage has always been this thing that's hard for
Mangesh Hattikudur: me to talk about. When I first moved to Delaware,
Mangesh Hattikudur: kids in my elementary school had all these questions for
Mangesh Hattikudur: me about being Indian, right? Like does your family sleep
Mangesh Hattikudur: on a bed of nails? Can you charm snakes? Just
Mangesh Hattikudur: you know these things they've seen on cartoons? And arranged
Mangesh Hattikudur: marriage was just another one of these questions I'd have
Mangesh Hattikudur: to field... except this one actually bothered me more because
Mangesh Hattikudur: this time I'd have to admit that, "yes, my parents
Mangesh Hattikudur: did have an arranged marriage." And then I'd have to explain.
Mangesh Hattikudur: The thing is, everyone assumed my mom and dad were
Mangesh Hattikudur: like forcibly paired off when they were 9 years old
Mangesh Hattikudur: and then sent away to work and have kids, and
Mangesh Hattikudur: that isn't true. It's like my parents situation was a
Mangesh Hattikudur: little more like Pride and Prejudice. Like, you come from
Mangesh Hattikudur: a good family, your parents want you to marry into
Mangesh Hattikudur: another good family, so they set you up. They make
Mangesh Hattikudur: introductions to certain people, and if you like each other,
Mangesh Hattikudur: they kind of fast-track the marriage, or they make more introductions.
Mangesh Hattikudur: But since this was already super hard to explain, I
Mangesh Hattikudur: just left out the part about astrology, which also plays
Mangesh Hattikudur: a big role in the whole arranged marriage thing. It
Mangesh Hattikudur: was like, I don't know, just too difficult or embarrassing something.
Mangesh Hattikudur: After all, it's it's a weird thing to have to
Mangesh Hattikudur: admit you only exist because of astrology. But I'll let
Mangesh Hattikudur: my mom explain.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Tell me about how your marriage was arranged.
Lalita Hattikudur: Oh, that's funny. Okay. Umesh's aunt, Shardakka-- she came to
Lalita Hattikudur: see Amma because she'd heard that, you know, I was available.
Mangesh Hattikudur: I guess this story starts, of course, with two families...
Mangesh Hattikudur: dusting off their kids' horoscopes and handing them off to
Mangesh Hattikudur: a trusted astrologer, not some low-level quack.
Lalita Hattikudur: So they matched it, and it matched perfectly.
Mangesh Hattikudur: The traditional Indian matching system is way more complicated than
Mangesh Hattikudur: just saying: is he a Scorpio? A proper celestial marriage
Mangesh Hattikudur: is supposed to be a union of souls, so the
Mangesh Hattikudur: astrologers inspect all the vagaries of your chart and pressure
Mangesh Hattikudur: test everything like your personalities, your feelings about class and status,
Mangesh Hattikudur: even how a couple's health will be affected by one another.
Mangesh Hattikudur: It's all on a scale of 36 points, and any
Mangesh Hattikudur: match under eighteen points shouldn't be considered. But anything over 32,
Mangesh Hattikudur: that's something you want to lock down immediately.
Lalita Hattikudur: My parents want to make sure that the man I married
Lalita Hattikudur: did not yell at me... so she asked the astrology, you know, how
Lalita Hattikudur: is his nature? So the astrologer told Amma that he
Lalita Hattikudur: was a gentle creature you know, never lost his temper.
Mangesh Hattikudur: So this part is true: I've only ever heard my
Mangesh Hattikudur: dad yell a handful of times, and most of that
Mangesh Hattikudur: was when our dog Lupini would just race out of
Mangesh Hattikudur: the house, and he would run after her with this
Mangesh Hattikudur: like slice of Kraft singles cheese, just waving it to
Mangesh Hattikudur: try to tempt her back. And it always worked because
Mangesh Hattikudur: she was super greedy.
Lalita Hattikudur: But one fault he'd have has never come on time
Lalita Hattikudur: to the table to have dinner. And we thought it
Lalita Hattikudur: was a big joke and that came true. We couldn't
Lalita Hattikudur: believe that astrology could be that powerful to tell a
Lalita Hattikudur: quirk like that.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Wasn't there something else with the mother-in-law?
Lalita Hattikudur: The mother-in-law? Yes, they said that I would be best
Lalita Hattikudur: for a boy that did not have a mother. I
Lalita Hattikudur: really don't know. They said was something to do with
Lalita Hattikudur: the stars, and if I had a mother-in-law, it wouldn't
Lalita Hattikudur: go well. So here Umesh had lost his mother when
Lalita Hattikudur: he was under a year, I think, or just about
Lalita Hattikudur: a year. So it was perfect.
Mangesh Hattikudur: This is something I think about a lot, how astrology
Mangesh Hattikudur: accounts for everything. My dad had an aaya or a nanny,
Mangesh Hattikudur: but he never had a mother. His life was a
Mangesh Hattikudur: series of hostels and boarding schools, sometimes in cities hundreds
Mangesh Hattikudur: of miles from his home. It makes me sad to
Mangesh Hattikudur: think about. But if his mom had survived, my parents
Mangesh Hattikudur: would never have been together. Astrology would have made sure
Mangesh Hattikudur: of that. Anyway, back to my mom. Even though my
Mangesh Hattikudur: grandmom was working really hard to set her up, my
Mangesh Hattikudur: mom was not keen to get married.
Lalita Hattikudur: I wasn't ready. I was still studying and it was
Lalita Hattikudur: in my final year for master's studying linguistics. I didn't
Lalita Hattikudur: want to give that up, and I didn't want to
Lalita Hattikudur: get married that fast. So I felt like a Jersey Cow. I wasn't happy.
Lalita Hattikudur: And things were really moving faster than I ever expected,
Lalita Hattikudur: so I said, I'm going to foil this.
Mangesh Hattikudur: So, just to get the picture, a typical woman hoping
Mangesh Hattikudur: for a match would be waiting, sitting by her parents,
Mangesh Hattikudur: dressed in a sari or something traditional-- like making a
Mangesh Hattikudur: big show of what a quiet and obedient wife they
Mangesh Hattikudur: could be. And instead...
Lalita Hattikudur: I had a mini-skirt on. And I had a Lambretta. I rode
Lalita Hattikudur: that and came.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Oh, and she's also late. Like my mom is the
Mangesh Hattikudur: most punctual person I know. She gets to the airport
Mangesh Hattikudur: three hours ahead of time, and that's since I was
Mangesh Hattikudur: a kid. So she's clearly trying to tank this thing.
Lalita Hattikudur: And my hair-- I had let it loose. It was curly and
Lalita Hattikudur: wasn't done. But instead, you know, Umesh's aunt said: "Oh,
Lalita Hattikudur: that's no problem. We love modern girls!"
Mangesh Hattikudur: What type of woman do you think Ammama was expecting
Mangesh Hattikudur: to present?
Lalita Hattikudur: She wanted them to know that I was absolutely sensitive
Lalita Hattikudur: and very loving, very kind and gentle with everyone, and
Lalita Hattikudur: an animal lover.
Mangesh Hattikudur: But my Grandmam was also incredibly honest, so she was
Mangesh Hattikudur: sure to tell my dad's family this:
Lalita Hattikudur: I had no interest in cooking.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Anyway, despite my mom's lack of interest in the kitchen
Mangesh Hattikudur: and her dramatic attempt to topple this whole affair, she
Mangesh Hattikudur: somehow still won my dad's family over.
Lalita Hattikudur: So Amma said: "here's the deal. Let him write to you.
Lalita Hattikudur: If you don't like him, it's fine."
Mangesh Hattikudur: He was a charming writer.
Lalita Hattikudur: He was a charming writer.
Mangesh Hattikudur: So they wrote letters back and forth for a year,
Mangesh Hattikudur: and when they finally met in person?
Lalita Hattikudur: ... you know, he looked so vulnerable that I said, "oh,
Lalita Hattikudur: this is great. I can handle him."
Mangesh Hattikudur: My parents don't have a perfect marriage, but there are
Mangesh Hattikudur: lots of wonderful bits... things that make me think those
Mangesh Hattikudur: 32 points mean something. Like once when they were young, they visited Paris,
Mangesh Hattikudur: and they went to dinner at this fancy restaurant with
Mangesh Hattikudur: a ballroom, and an orchestra started playing and no one
Mangesh Hattikudur: was dancing... crickets! So my dad just whisked my mom
Mangesh Hattikudur: onto the dance floor and then slowly everyone in the
Mangesh Hattikudur: place joins in. And when my parents went back to
Mangesh Hattikudur: their table, the band leader had actually sent them this
Mangesh Hattikudur: gorgeous bottle of brandy to say thank you for livening
Mangesh Hattikudur: the place up, and for getting everyone dancing. I mean,
Mangesh Hattikudur: if astrology can promise you those sorts of scenes, it's
Mangesh Hattikudur: like who wouldn't listen?
Mangesh Hattikudur: Of course, astrology has done damage in the family too.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Here's my mom telling me about an arranged marriage gone wrong:
Lalita Hattikudur: My cousin Nana. The girl that they looked for the
Lalita Hattikudur: horoscope matched with him.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Who's your cousin, Nana?
Lalita Hattikudur: Nana from Mangalore. So there was a danger of his
Lalita Hattikudur: brother dying if the girl married Nana.
Mangesh Hattikudur: The astrologers predicted that if the couple went through with
Mangesh Hattikudur: the marriage, even though their horoscopes matched, it could lead
Mangesh Hattikudur: to Nana's brother's death. I mean, who wants that on
Mangesh Hattikudur: their hands, even if it's putting your chances for love
Mangesh Hattikudur: at risk.
Lalita Hattikudur: So to this day, he still a bachelor.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Really? Well, what do you think about that?
Lalita Hattikudur: It's a shame. Yeah, they could have found other girls,
Lalita Hattikudur: but he just was dejected. He said no more girls; no more horoscopes. So he's still a bachelor.
Mangesh Hattikudur: That's heartbreaking.
Lalita Hattikudur: It is really is.
Mangesh Hattikudur: After chatting with my mom, two things occurred to me: First,
Mangesh Hattikudur: the chasm between the way Americans and Indians use astrology?
Mangesh Hattikudur: That only felt wider. Like no app was going to
Mangesh Hattikudur: tell you to quit your MBA to marry some guy
Mangesh Hattikudur: in America, or to break it off with this girl
Mangesh Hattikudur: because it could bring bad luck or death to another
Mangesh Hattikudur: family member. Like the starkness of the way Indian astrology
Mangesh Hattikudur: can be used to control lives-- it felt so dark.
Mangesh Hattikudur: But also... pretty intriguing. Like, it only made me want
Mangesh Hattikudur: to dig in more. And the second thing I remembered
Mangesh Hattikudur: is this piece of advice A.J. gave me about really
Mangesh Hattikudur: embracing the show.
A.J. Jacobs: I think you gotta go all in. So you've got
A.J. Jacobs: to hire an astrologer to help you with the show.
A.J. Jacobs: Figure out when you should start; when should the air
A.J. Jacobs: date be; who should you hire to help you? Should
A.J. Jacobs: it be a Virgo or a Capricorn? Like, go for it,
A.J. Jacobs: because that's one way to test it is to see:
A.J. Jacobs: does it work for you?
Mangesh Hattikudur: So I decided to find an Indian astrologer and solve
Mangesh Hattikudur: both problems. I could lean into my Indian side and
Mangesh Hattikudur: also have some fun with it. But what I didn't
Mangesh Hattikudur: know was that that visit was going to change my life.
Mangesh Hattikudur: CHAPTER FIVE: WE GO TO QUEENS
Mangesh Hattikudur: On April 9th, I headed to Queens to meet an astrologer.
Mangesh Hattikudur: He's someone my friend and showrunner for the show, Mary
Mangesh Hattikudur: recommended that I reached out to. And coincidentally, he happened
Mangesh Hattikudur: to be an astrologer that my cousin Aditya had used.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Hey, Adit.
Aditya: Hey, how's it going?
Mangesh Hattikudur: How are you?
Aditya: Good, good.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Adit is another rational type. He's kind of this white-shoe lawyer;
Mangesh Hattikudur: masters from Cambridge. And he used this astrologer in a
Mangesh Hattikudur: difficult time... and apparently the predictions had proven accurate. So
Mangesh Hattikudur: Adit actually wanted to see him again. So I took
Mangesh Hattikudur: a train to Jackson Heights to meet Dr Rakesh Kumar. And we
Mangesh Hattikudur: entered his white wood frame office. From the outside, it's
Mangesh Hattikudur: kind of nondescript. Like this row house. But when you
Mangesh Hattikudur: opened the door, you immediately sensed these temple-like vibes. So
Mangesh Hattikudur: I took off my shoes at the entrance, walked through
Mangesh Hattikudur: a fog of sweet sandalwood, and there were these massive
Mangesh Hattikudur: photos of his guru on the wall. And then I
Mangesh Hattikudur: turned into this tiny room with a wooden desk, and
Mangesh Hattikudur: it had a giant stack of books on it with
Mangesh Hattikudur: a little black laptop on top. Looking around, I realized
Mangesh Hattikudur: how fun this is. I'm here on this field trip
Mangesh Hattikudur: with my cousin, this astrology adventure. And I'm so ready
Mangesh Hattikudur: to hear some ridiculous things and enjoy this experience. Dr
Mangesh Hattikudur: Kumar very sweetly welcomes me. And he closes his emails.
Mangesh Hattikudur: And then, using the information I sent him a few
Mangesh Hattikudur: days before, he pulls up my chart and turns on
Mangesh Hattikudur: his recorder.
Dr. Rakesh Kumar: So Mangesh, looking at the chart: May 1, 1979. 12:04 in the afternoon
Dr. Rakesh Kumar: in Summit, New Jersey. You're born on a Tuesday. You
Dr. Rakesh Kumar: have the sign cancer rising....
Mangesh Hattikudur: I've got to say, I was a little surprised by
Mangesh Hattikudur: how quickly Dr Kumar dives in. It seems like he's
Mangesh Hattikudur: just staring at a bunch of numbers on his screen,
Mangesh Hattikudur: but he's interpreting them, kind of like Neo from the Matrix.
Mangesh Hattikudur: And I'm curious to hear my reading. But what I
Mangesh Hattikudur: really want to do is asked Dr Kumar about the show.
Mangesh Hattikudur: I thought it would be fun if there were these
Mangesh Hattikudur: auspicious dates for my podcast, or if you could predict
Mangesh Hattikudur: something about how many people would listen. But first-- he
Mangesh Hattikudur: had some questions for me.
Dr. Rakesh Kumar: So how's what been since January?
Mangesh Hattikudur: Um, that's when I decided to quit my job.
Dr. Rakesh Kumar: So either you would have quit your job, or the
Dr. Rakesh Kumar: job would have quit you. One of those things because
Dr. Rakesh Kumar: the times are such, because it impacts your karma-chetra, you're work area. It's
Dr. Rakesh Kumar: so ironic, you come here today. Four days from now-- April 13 onwards,
Dr. Rakesh Kumar: thereafter a new chapter of your life begins. Another beginning
Dr. Rakesh Kumar: of your life, which will be very good.
Mangesh Hattikudur: This is what I came for. I write down April
Mangesh Hattikudur: 13th in my notebook and I circle it big. Four
Mangesh Hattikudur: days from now. That's the date I'm going to get
Mangesh Hattikudur: started on my show.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Dr Kumar continues with more work related things. He says
Mangesh Hattikudur: foreign travel is in the cards, which is super exciting,
Mangesh Hattikudur: and that I should wear an emerald to improve my
Mangesh Hattikudur: communication skills, which is funny. I make a note to
Mangesh Hattikudur: do an episode on gems and vedic astrology down the line.
Mangesh Hattikudur: But the best part is that Dr Kumar seems to
Mangesh Hattikudur: think this whole podcast will go really well:
Dr. Rakesh Kumar: So it's very profound. So you'll make it big in life.
Dr. Rakesh Kumar: You'll be very successful in everything, because your planets show that.
Mangesh Hattikudur: I'm so excited about all this tape. Getting a start
Mangesh Hattikudur: date for the show; the talk of gems; this prediction
Mangesh Hattikudur: that everything might go well, that I'm caught off guard
Mangesh Hattikudur: by Dr Kumar's next question, which comes out of nowhere.
Dr. Rakesh Kumar: Tell me something about your father. Um, like what he did
Dr. Rakesh Kumar: for work or it still does.
Mangesh Hattikudur: He's a chemical engineer. He's retired. He's ill right now.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Listening back, I don't know why I mentioned my dad
Mangesh Hattikudur: was ill. Dr Kumar hadn't asked, and maybe it's because
Mangesh Hattikudur: I was trying to participate fully, like I thought I
Mangesh Hattikudur: should let him know. Years ago my dad was diagnosed
Mangesh Hattikudur: with cancer, but he actually sailed through that treatment and
Mangesh Hattikudur: he's been cancer-free for a while now. But recently he
Mangesh Hattikudur: broke a rib reaching for something, which was odd. And
Mangesh Hattikudur: then he also had this slight boost in some liver counts,
Mangesh Hattikudur: which his doctor told him not to worry about.
Dr. Rakesh Kumar: Because that's why I asked again: from the time he
Dr. Rakesh Kumar: started a couple of years back, till now, situation doesn't
Dr. Rakesh Kumar: look good for father. There is risk to father.
Mangesh Hattikudur: This thing about my dad? It was a throwaway line
Mangesh Hattikudur: in the middle of an hour and a half interview.
Mangesh Hattikudur: I don't even know how closely I was listening. By
Mangesh Hattikudur: the time we hit stop on the recorder, I was thrilled.
Mangesh Hattikudur: I had over an hour of material and I was
Mangesh Hattikudur: cutting tape my head as I was asking questions. And
Mangesh Hattikudur: I know I felt good. I thanked Dr Kumar for
Mangesh Hattikudur: his time, and I let him run off to feed
Mangesh Hattikudur: his mother lunch, which he does every day. And then
Mangesh Hattikudur: my cousin and I walked off to get fresh dosas
Mangesh Hattikudur: and idlis at one of the many canteens that dot this
Mangesh Hattikudur: area of Jackson Heights.
Aditya: Table for two? Thank you.
Mangesh Hattikudur: And then twenty minutes into chatting and laughing and debating
Mangesh Hattikudur: what's real about astrology and what isn't and how can
Mangesh Hattikudur: you even tell, right? I received this email from my dad.
Mangesh Hattikudur: It read: we just received the results of the MRCP testing. Unfortunately,
Mangesh Hattikudur: the news is not as good as it could be.
Mangesh Hattikudur: We'll talk to the doctors and let you know as soon
Mangesh Hattikudur: as we can. Study results diffuse metastatic disease throughout the
Mangesh Hattikudur: liver and bones from unknown primary.
Mangesh Hattikudur: The cancer had metastasized through my dad's liver and bones.
Mangesh Hattikudur: I don't know what it means, but I've forgotten about astrology.
Mangesh Hattikudur: I don't care about emeralds or whether any of this
Mangesh Hattikudur: feels embarrassing anymore. My stomach drops. I can't finish my chai.
Mangesh Hattikudur: I don't know what to write, so I just tap out:
Mangesh Hattikudur: "I'm so sorry, Dad. I'll call you back in a bit."
Mangesh Hattikudur: And all I'm thinking now is how fast can I
Mangesh Hattikudur: get to Atlanta?
Mangesh Hattikudur: Next week on Skyline Drive, we take a train to
Mangesh Hattikudur: Bay Ridge, meet a therapist who secretly uses astrology behind
Mangesh Hattikudur: her clients' backs, and hang out with a 74-year old
Mangesh Hattikudur: who just wants to know:
Jean: Am I ever going to have sex with somebody again?
Mangesh Hattikudur: And we use astrology to get her an answer.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Thank you so much for listening. I have so many
Mangesh Hattikudur: people to thank. Skyline Drive is a production of Kaleidoscope
Mangesh Hattikudur: and iHeart Podcasts. The show is hosted and written by
Mangesh Hattikudur: me Mangesh Hattikudur, with a ton of help, like SO MUCH HELP from
Mangesh Hattikudur: these wonderful people. Mary Phillips-Sandy is our cat-loving supervising producer.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Mitra Bonshahi produced this whole thing, despite my constantly getting
Mangesh Hattikudur: in the way. Mark Lotto is our incredible story editor
Mangesh Hattikudur: who even suffered a trip to India with me. This
Mangesh Hattikudur: episode was mixed by my pal at Soundboard with scoring
Mangesh Hattikudur: from Botany. The song Yo la Mango is my absolute favorite. Um,
Mangesh Hattikudur: the insane music in between is courtesy of Azadi Records,
Mangesh Hattikudur: Himanshu Suri and Peter Matthew Bauer. If you want to
Mangesh Hattikudur: hear more, we made you a mixtape, just check out
Mangesh Hattikudur: the show notes. Additional production and research support from the
Mangesh Hattikudur: wonderful Anna Rubinova, Dhruv Shiva Rao, Lucas Reilly, Bethanne Macaluso, Aditya Basrur,
Mangesh Hattikudur: and my wonderful wife Lizzie Jacobs. There's also my superstar
Mangesh Hattikudur: Aunt Suman "the Woman" Bakshi, and my cousin Arjun Bakshi who helped me
Mangesh Hattikudur: out of a giant pinch abroad. The show is executive
Mangesh Hattikudur: produced from iHeart by my good pal Nikki Ettore and Katrina Norvell.
Mangesh Hattikudur: This show would not have happened without the support of
Mangesh Hattikudur: my friends at Kaleidoscope, starting with my good pal Oz Woloshyn,
Mangesh Hattikudur: who believed in this show. He's also my partner at Kaleidoscope.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Also Kate Osborne for her spot-on notes, Costas Linos, for
Mangesh Hattikudur: his encouragement and Vahini Shori for her delightful suggestions. I
Mangesh Hattikudur: also want to give a little special thanks to all
Mangesh Hattikudur: the kiddos who bore with us through this production: Henry, Ruby, Julian, Grendel,
Mangesh Hattikudur: Lu and Little Enzo Ettore. All my friends at iHeart,
Mangesh Hattikudur: including Bob, Conal, Will, Carrie, Nathan, Jason, Jeri, my New
Mangesh Hattikudur: York and Atlanta Crews. There are too many to name.
Mangesh Hattikudur: Also Shanta, Saurabh, my family in India, my family in the States,
Mangesh Hattikudur: my friend Noel Brown who read this episode's warning... Check
Mangesh Hattikudur: out his shows: Ridiculous History and Stuff They Don't Want
Mangesh Hattikudur: You To Know. And just one last thank you: to
Mangesh Hattikudur: my Amma and my dad, Lalita and Umesh Hattikudur, who I
Mangesh Hattikudur: thank my lucky stars for. Thank you so much for listening.