WEBVTT - Kara Swisher Discusses the Tech Industry 0:00:02.279 --> 0:00:06.840 This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholtz on Boomberg Radio. 0:00:07.560 --> 0:00:09.879 This week on the podcast, I have a special guest. 0:00:10.000 --> 0:00:14.360 Her name is Kara Swisher. And if you are remotely 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:23.840 interested in anything related to technology, media, venture capital, CEO's privacy, 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:29.120 the weaponization of social media, and just about anything else 0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:33.000 you might have seen about technology, well then you're in 0:00:33.400 --> 0:00:36.240 for quite the treat. We went for about eight hours. 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:40.400 We took time out for sleeping and meals and basically 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:46.519 covered everything, uh from the rise of technology, how people 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:50.279 completely did not see this coming, what technology is going 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:52.159 to do to us in the future, and who the 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:56.320 hell is this Scott Galloway guy anyway, So I could 0:00:56.440 --> 0:00:59.040 tell you all about it, but rather than do that, 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:02.560 I'm just gonna shut up and say my conversation with 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:08.880 Kara Swisher. This is Master's in Business with Barry Ridholts 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:13.320 on Bloomberg Radio. I'm Barry Ridholts. You're listening to Masters 0:01:13.319 --> 0:01:16.880 in Business on Bloomberg Radio. My extra special guests this 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:21.640 week is Kara Swisher. She is the co founder of Recode, 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:26.319 sold recently to Vox. Before that, she was the longstanding 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:30.440 technology journalist along with Walt Mossburg over at the Wall 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:33.720 Street Journal. She is the author of a number of books, 0:01:33.800 --> 0:01:37.759 including How Steve Case Beat Bill Gates and its sequel, 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:41.080 There Must Be a Pony in Here Somewhere. She won 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:45.600 the Gerald Loebe Award for Excellence in Business Journalism and 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:48.640 is the co host of one of my favorite podcasts, 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:53.520 Pivot with Scott Galloway. Kara Swisher. Welcome to Bloomberg. I'm 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:58.120 very impressive with myself. Well, you have a nice list 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:02.160 of accomplishments. I was discussed saying your work with somebody 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:05.680 and they said, she's really a journalist, right, And I'm like, well, 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:09.760 she's also an entrepreneur. She's been very forward in terms 0:02:09.760 --> 0:02:13.880 of the conference business, in terms of um, the media business, 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:16.440 which she turned into a platform. I don't know if 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:20.440 it was ever publicly released. Um what Recode was sold? 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:22.720 Was that always private? Yeah? It was. It was a 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:25.359 start up. Yeah, we sold ABO four or five years ago. 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:30.360 It was we had been funded by NBC and Terry Samuel, 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:34.480 who's taken ill now but he uh. We we got 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:37.360 twelve million dollars from them, and at the time that 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:39.800 was a lot, but pretty soon it was it wasn't 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:41.760 a lot. A lot of content companies. It was sort 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:44.880 of this big boom in investing in content, and many 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:47.600 of my competitors got four or five times what I 0:02:47.639 --> 0:02:50.239 got six months later as a VC investment. Yeah, we 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:52.720 didn't have a VC. It was NBC and Terry he's 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:55.520 a media investor, you know. And so I looked around. 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:58.000 I said this, I can't compete with this much money. 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:00.920 It's it's a bubble. And so I sold Box. I looked, 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:02.799 I talked to a number of companies. I sold really 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:07.720 quickly after founding Well. No, I was at All Things 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:10.160 D for a dozen or more years, which was within 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:12.679 the Wall Street Journal. UM, and I was at the 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:14.400 in the journal for about a dozen more than a 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:17.280 dozen years, and but we had a skunk works inside 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:19.280 the journal, so it was owned by the journal, but 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:24.000 we ran it without their input. Really yeah, it was great, yeah, 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:26.960 and they were good and bad in different ways, but 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:30.480 um and then we left because we had some problems 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:33.040 with them, and then had it funded and we were 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:35.080 going to do it independently, but then I was like, 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:37.600 no way, this is gonna things. You have to be 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:40.560 really dynamic when you're an entrepreneur and realize, you know, 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:43.200 if someone if your competitors all have three times the 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:45.240 amount of funding. You do. You have a problem. You 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:48.240 can't be that good. And so especially in content because 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:51.880 it's about hiring talent. And so we sold really quickly 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:56.680 within a year to Vox Media. Like yeah, I was like, 0:03:56.840 --> 0:03:58.400 you know, I'm I'm really good that way. I know 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:01.480 when to move. So that wasn't hundreds of millions of 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:07.720 dollars that It wasn't okay, and I just no, I 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:10.440 haven't I'm not going to hear but I'm not going 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:12.160 to going to it. But it's not. It doesn't worth anything. 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:14.600 I own the stock and Box Media whatever Box Media cells. 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:17.120 So it was so I won't harangue you about this, 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:19.760 but was I'm assuming this was an all stock trans Yes, 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:21.440 it was. We decided that O. Yeah, we could have 0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:23.520 gotten cash, but we I felt like why not, Like 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:25.520 if I'm an entrepreneur, I should own the shop. And 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:27.719 I so, I mean, I have quite a bit of 0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:29.640 stock in Box Media. We'll see what happens. I mean 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:33.240 obviously now content, uh, content is now the blooms off 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:35.560 the rose there and you know Box is quite healthy. 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:38.720 But you know the others bezz feed and and Mike 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:41.640 of course closed, some of these others closed and so 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:44.480 and all of media is under stress and so, you know, 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:46.920 especially we're going to a recession and stuff. So it's 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:49.040 just whatever the stocks worth. We'll see, we'll see how 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:51.480 it goes. Quite interesting. But I'm very well paid, Barry, 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:54.640 don't worry about it. I do, okay, you do, okay. 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:56.919 So let's talk a little bit about the early parts 0:04:56.920 --> 0:04:59.000 of your career you come out of. Now, I know 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:01.720 you have a mastress from Colombia. Was that the journalism 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:04.159 school or journalism school? Yeah? I went to Georgetown School 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:07.880 Foreign Service, which was in Washington, d C. It was 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:10.479 actually my backup school. Now it's a very top ranking school. 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:12.719 But at the time, and can I tell you you 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:14.760 and I are not all that far apart in age 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:20.200 the people who came into because of the demographics into 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:26.720 college forty years ago, we're dealing with um relatively easy admissions. 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:29.520 And then the boom followed. It was the echo boom 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:31.320 made it much more challenging to get in. I didn't 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:32.760 get in. Everybody didn't get at Stanford. I wanted to 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:35.160 go to Stanford, but my brother went to Stanford. UM. 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:37.400 But I I got into Georgetown, and it was in 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:39.400 the school FORIGN service, and I wanted to be I've 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:41.200 said this many times, a spy. I wanted to work 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:43.440 for the CIA, and I want to do analysis, very 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:45.839 similar what I do now, reporting an analysis, just with 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:48.000 no one shooting it. Yes, exactly, Well, you never know, 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:50.240 um and so and I it was very interested in 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:53.640 the military too, in military intelligence. And I was gay 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:55.840 at the time. That was impossible you could get into 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:57.800 the military. You couldn't you had. It was don't ask, 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:01.720 don't tell. Under the Clinton ministry and so I always tell. 0:06:01.960 --> 0:06:04.440 So it was really hard to do that. Um and 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:08.040 then in the CIA, you haven't asked, ridiculous tell. It's 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:12.000 such a insane thing. Can I tell you? It's so shocking. 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:15.400 What right, It's so shocking to look back just twenty 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:19.120 years and say, what the hell are we thinking? Don't ask? 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:20.800 What are we still thinking? There's all these attacks on 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:23.200 transgender people. Now, well we you know, we're in an 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:26.960 alternative timeline. Now I'll discuss that later. We're not you think, 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:29.040 so this is just what America is like. I'm sorry, 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:31.880 you know, put a mirror to our faces. There's a 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:35.039 great there's a great series going on. It's the six 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:38.480 nine series in the New York Times, and it's that. 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:41.400 Let me just say, this is what we are, and 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:43.080 if you it's part of us, it's not every part 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:45.400 of us, but it's not this dream of being this 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:50.159 incredibly meritocurtency with everybody getting a chance. It's just not. So. 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:52.520 So let me fast forward to a question I'm gonna 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:55.960 was planning on asking you later. How much of this 0:06:56.240 --> 0:07:00.760 that we're discussing here is a function that forty years ago, 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:06.400 if you were a crazy um nazi, racist, homophobe, whatever 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:09.279 it was, you would be the guy mumbling to yourself 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:12.800 outside the library, but you didn't have the ability to 0:07:12.920 --> 0:07:17.480 coordinate nationally well that there were tons of them and people. 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:19.480 The things people said to me thirty years ago about 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:22.520 being gay was just astonishing. Like today would not be 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:25.320 allowed obviously, or in some places it would, but it was. 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:27.880 The change has been so drastic around gay people. But 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:29.760 at the time, I couldn't be what I wanted. I 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:31.160 wanted to be in the military, my dad was in 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:33.480 the military, and I just couldn't. There was, you know, 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:35.640 I really wanted to be like compared like you know, 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:38.240 people always surprised I'm like, I'm really quite. I really 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:40.760 think the military can be great in a lot of ways, 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:43.400 has a lot of problems like anything else. Um, but 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:45.760 you know, yeah that Scott was talking about that the 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:48.640 other day, and before the sort of the ability to 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:52.440 unify and have have places to meet for people who 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:56.080 have issues racists like white supremacists, the Internet has helped 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:58.240 them drastically. And I talked about that in my first 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:00.640 book in ninety seven. This was a place where you 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:05.640 can either gather for good like quilters or people parents 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:08.040 and you know, people who want to know, well, these 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:10.960 communities about different. What happened is all these people were 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:15.560 and wherever Idaho, wherever, they're everywhere, they just were wolves. Yeah, 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:17.720 and so now they can find places to gather. It's 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:20.760 it's they create these gathering places which and with a 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:23.320 lot of tools from video too, and so it's a 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:26.000 really great place to radicalize people. You know, that's the 0:08:26.040 --> 0:08:28.200 problem with the Internet. This tool it can be you know, 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:29.520 it's like a knife. It can be used in a 0:08:29.560 --> 0:08:31.560 lot of different ways, and so in a lot of 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:34.520 ways it's used to kill people. So I've watched your 0:08:34.600 --> 0:08:38.800 thought evolve on whether or not this is in response 0:08:38.840 --> 0:08:41.760 to most recently to eight chan and read it basically 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:44.280 saying we should not be a gathering place for white 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:48.280 supremacists and others who are plotting to kill people. You've 0:08:48.360 --> 0:08:52.480 kind of moved a little bit about whether companies like 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:56.200 registrars domain registrars or or I'm moved. I think they 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:57.920 should take them off. I don't. I've never that's not 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:01.040 an evolution. No, No, I'm actually were more of a 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:05.600 First Amenda you misreading it because I think I find 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:08.599 the intellectual capacity of most people still on Valley to 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:11.520 be light, you know, in terms of ethics, in terms 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:14.200 of historical knowledge and everything, and so they have this 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:17.120 I call it libertarian light. You know, they're like, I'm 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:19.080 a libertarian, I'm a first man. I'm like, explain it 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:20.959 for me, and you know, I have studied this so 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:23.280 I know what it is. And they're like, anybody can 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:24.600 say anything. I'm like, no, that's not what the First 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:27.680 Amendment says. It says Congress shall make no law. Just Congress, 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:30.600 not Twitter, not Facebook. Not like they're just so like 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:33.240 there's many people and they're highly educated in certain ways, 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:36.920 but in general, it's libertarian light. You know what I mean, 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:38.640 people should do what they want. That's like, that's what 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:41.560 a twelve three year old says. I can do what 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:44.559 I want, but you can't. And so I think legitimate 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:49.200 companies like Facebook, like Twitter, like Google have responsibility. And 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:52.240 I've always thought companies, whether they're chemical companies or Wall 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:54.920 Street companies or Bloomberg or any or Vox, we have 0:09:54.920 --> 0:09:59.280 a responsibility to society. You know, legitimate companies the others 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:02.440 can create these things. But it doesn't mean that this 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:05.000 this this idea that you collect all the money and 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:08.000 have none of the responsibilities, okay, because it's not okay. 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:09.920 Now they can do it, but I can say this 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:12.400 is not okay, quite quite interesting. You know, you can 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:14.160 decide who you would do business with. I don't like, 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:16.960 you know, I like you can decide who you do 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:19.880 business with. And you know, cloud Flare is the company 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:21.840 that I wrote about recently in the New York Times. 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:24.640 I read a column their weekly. Um, you know, they 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:28.880 this guy who I've interviewed several times, Matthew Prince. Um, 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:32.720 you know, he he's been sort of he's changed my 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:36.000 I've suddenly realized this is terrible, and I'm like, welcome 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:38.680 to the world. Like, have you not been paying attention 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:41.679 and they cut off a jan um. But you know, 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:44.600 people can make their decisions. They just have to live 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:48.320 with their decisions. If you want to facilitate white supremacy, 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:51.120 own it, like own what you're doing, and that's what 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:52.760 they'd like to do. They'd like to do it. And 0:10:52.800 --> 0:10:56.080 then say, why are you criticizing me? So they you know, 0:10:56.440 --> 0:11:00.959 expressing my first memory. I love the fact that the 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:04.840 Internet identifies all these people who are participating in these 0:11:05.080 --> 0:11:10.080 white supremacy marches and basically calls out their bosses and 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:12.920 gets them fired. Yeah, you want to march here, go ahead, 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:15.920 just don't expect to serve star. It's just people. People 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:18.360 can do whatever they want. It's just you know, the 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:21.200 whole controversy on Alex Jones for example. You know, this vile, 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:25.880 vile human being, just on every measure, he's a vile person. 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:28.760 He can have a website anywhere on the Internet. No 0:11:28.800 --> 0:11:31.800 one's stopping him. People who make these tools can either 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:34.680 decide to kick him off or not. That's that's the deal, right. 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:38.040 So and their commercial businesses and if I people choose 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:41.040 not to do business with them, they're not nothing wrong 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:44.959 with companies like that. Advertisers pointing out to advertisers pointing 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:47.040 out to whatever, it's not it's the way, you know, 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:49.280 boycotts have gone on for century. It's not. This is 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:51.080 not a new thing kind of thing. And I think 0:11:51.080 --> 0:11:54.800 it's just becomes so um amplified and weaponized in this 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:57.319 time because it's so viral, it's so so the news 0:11:57.360 --> 0:11:59.920 we get is so twitchy and so quick that people 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:03.280 get and and the emotions get so easily in a 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:07.000 rage that people think it's different. Um. But what's interesting 0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:10.760 is that they um, you know, they they have their spaces. 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:13.040 When when I was when the Alex Jones things was happening, 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:16.800 I was talking to all the major platforms and they're like, well, 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:18.840 everybody has a right, you know, to have a place. 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:20.720 I'm like, but you're going to kick him off just 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:22.880 so you know, because he's broken your rules. Like they 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:25.240 made rules. What's the point of your stupid rules if 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:28.280 you're not going to enforce them? Well, you know it's complicated. 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:29.920 I'm like, no, you made rules, he broke on. Why 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:32.280 isn't he off? Like you know, and they had all 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:34.480 these weird rules, and it's like, if you're gonna make rules, 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:37.760 keep to them. You have a responsibility to the society 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:40.520 at large, and you know, in things that are pretty 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:42.800 much you know, there's all kinds of edge cases, there's 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:47.840 all kinds of like whatever they can be, but there's 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:50.080 lots of places where people to go. You know, for example, 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:53.640 like with with Twitter, there they've it's been so haphazard 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:57.360 with them that you know that we've kicked off Melo whatever, 0:12:57.400 --> 0:13:00.640 you know, we kick him off, but not the sky. 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:02.920 But we kicked this person, but not that guy. It's like, 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:04.880 it just doesn't make any sense to people. And I 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:06.840 think if everyone understood the rules and then when you 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:11.040 break them, that's that what they've managed to do is 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:13.600 make people think these things are public squares when they're 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:17.800 private squares and they own everything and they get paid 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:21.240 for everything, and they don't have any responsibility for monitoring them. 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:26.320 So they've made these very filthy public private squares and 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:28.200 it's the only place to gather. And then they say, 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:31.080 we don't have any responsibility for cleaning. I just happened 0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:34.840 this morning to be scanning Twitter and I saw sleeping giants. 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:37.680 Oh him, Yeah, he's great, right, just mentioned that last 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:43.120 night on Tucker Calson show, Dell was advertising, and you know, 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:46.480 you think that a big broad name like that would 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:48.520 be a little savvy er. Oh you know what, they 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:50.920 wait until the things blow over and then they go 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:53.200 back that. You know, they just want to sell. But 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:56.600 but here's the thing you're gonna get cold out for that. 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:58.440 That's right, that's right, this is the world. Guess what. 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:01.199 And that's you know that happened before. Remember Anita Brian 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:03.559 the orange juice thing with gay That's right, everyone was 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:06.760 dumping orange juice? Was that unfair to Anita Brian? It 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:09.160 doesn't matter she had her opinion. This is what it 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:12.560 costs to have her opinion. And I think, um, you know, 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:15.880 every everything costs, and people don't realize that like they 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:18.199 We live in a world where everyone's I can say 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:20.080 whatever I want, like you certainly can, but it certainly 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:22.440 costs the same with me, same with everybody else. Be 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:25.120 an adult about it. What you're doing. Let's talk a 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:28.680 little bit about what you're doing, um with your career 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:31.920 now and how you began. What was it like in 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:36.080 the early nineties covering technology. I don't think people there's 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:39.360 nobody covering that writes it was me and some other guy. 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:43.320 I don't think people really understood how important technology was 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:46.520 going to be to society, the economy. Everything it had 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:50.200 been covered, you know, chips and Microsoft essentially in software, 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:52.800 chips and software. We'd been either covered as a as 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:55.240 a as a as a product issue like we made 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:57.280 Windows ten. Here's the news story, which is not a 0:14:57.320 --> 0:14:58.920 news story when they at least something, but it used 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:02.840 to be UM and so you know when the hoop 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:05.600 la on that was insane. I was at that event, UM, 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:07.840 So you know, I think what was interesting. What I 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:10.120 thought about it is this was an entirely new industry 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:13.320 being created, the Internet industry, and you had to treat 0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:15.800 it like the beginnings of electricity or the beginning of 0:15:15.840 --> 0:15:18.640 TV or the beginning of radio. And so that's how 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:20.520 I looked at it. And so one of the things 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:22.880 I told when I first started covering at the Washing 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:24.320 Post and then later at the Wall Street Journal, what 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:26.120 I told Manners is I'm not going to tell you 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:28.080 how the watchworking. I'll tell you what time it is, 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:30.680 and that's what the most important story, like who are 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:33.840 these people? And I spent a lot of time understanding 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:35.640 the culture that was growing because it was all new. 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:37.240 Like the I was there, I wrote one of the 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:39.400 first stories when the Internet was commercialized. When I was 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:41.920 at the Washington Post. I think, I mean, nobody was 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:45.520 paying attention to, you know, what al Gore was doing. Yes, 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:48.160 I was covering it then, and so I really there 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:50.520 was a moment where I was like, this is going 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:55.600 to be the most important change in media and communications 0:15:56.520 --> 0:15:58.480 in history, like so far, and there's been a lot. 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:01.480 I thought, catch on, Yeah I did. I kept saying, 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:03.600 you know, two things I spent a lot of time 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:06.440 doing is talking about um. I told I tell a 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:10.120 story that absolutely was a moment where I downloaded a 0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:13.760 Calvin and Hobbs book onto a server and I messed 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:15.520 up the server. It was so big, you know, and 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:18.960 the pictures and the person who was running the technology 0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:20.080 was like what did you do? And I'm like, I 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:23.040 downloaded a book, I put it in Like what you that? 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:24.880 And then like he's like so what, I'm like, so 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:27.000 what don't you get at you idiot? Like you know, 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:29.040 this is gonna everything is going to be digitized. And 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:31.160 I kept saying everything is going to be digitized everything, 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:33.120 And I say this over and over again. Everything that 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:36.520 can be digitized will be digitized. Jobs, everything, It eats everything, 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:38.960 not just Mark andres and software is eating the world. 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:42.800 Digital is eating the world. You know, you sound a 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:48.000 bit like Andresen who describes software software, but he describes 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:51.920 entrepreneurs that he knows he's onto something when they're trying 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:55.880 to explain their business to a VC and they get 0:16:55.920 --> 0:16:57.880 frustrated and angry, like, how do you not see this? 0:16:57.960 --> 0:17:00.680 It's so obvious? You basically just said, well it was, 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:02.640 and it was. I would run around saying this and 0:17:02.680 --> 0:17:04.360 everyone's like, what are you talking about. I'm like, there's 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:06.040 not gonna be newspapers. There's not gonna be like I 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:08.520 would do that like the newspaper people. And then the 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:10.760 second part was mobile. And when I got to the journal, 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:12.760 I would just wrote a columnist the other day and 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:14.720 the Times about no one's going to own a car, 0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:19.600 which caused quite a lot of consternation because like people 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:21.520 in the Midwestern or with pickup truck struck, I want 0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:23.119 my pickup trup. I said, have your pickup truck. But 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:26.240 it's gonna be like only like you don't understand, like 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:29.280 even you will not have a car like cities, absolutely 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:32.520 not you. Very soon after it'll be all automated and 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:35.639 everything else or they'll be floating or whatever and so um. 0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:37.320 So I wrote a piece when I write when I 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:42.400 got to the journal in called cutting the Cord. Yeah, 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:44.040 and I had a picture of me with chords and 0:17:44.040 --> 0:17:47.520 I had a big you know places, and I said, 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:49.879 you will not have a landline phone. You will carry 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:52.000 around this device. It will get smaller. And because they 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:54.359 were big at the time, you know you small and 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:56.399 tomorrow there will be your entire computer. It will be 0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:58.960 on the go, be mobile. You will this will be 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:00.760 the center of your news. And it was when I 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:02.000 go back and read it, I'm like, wow, that was 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:06.439 pretty smart. Good um. But I kept insisting it and 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:08.840 it made so much sense, like it obviously like when 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:11.320 I think about cars, or when I think about certain 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:13.720 jobs being eliminated. Like I was trying to alert the 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:15.119 other and I'm like, your job is going to go 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:18.000 like it's so patterned match. AI will take over everything 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:20.920 you do except for the creativity part. No, it's you know, 0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:23.560 I think I said, everything you do is digitized, anything 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:26.360 that's by road, anything that's mechanical, not just mechanical, it 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:29.600 is so much more that really you could apply AI 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:33.760 principles to a robotic, any of the coming things, robotics, automation, uh, 0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:38.760 self driving, um AI. It's just anything that can apply 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:41.119 to it does. So I think about though, what can change, 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:43.639 what's not going to be here? Whenever I get pushed 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:47.280 back when we discuss future technology, my favorite question to 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:49.840 ask people is, well, do you think people will still 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:51.840 be driving their own cars in a hundred years? No, 0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:55.320 of course not. Okay, so next year, yeah I'll still be. 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:58.080 So really, the debate is weird. When does that transition 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:02.359 take place? And people can picture, but they can picture 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:05.280 twelve years from now. That's too difficult. Yeah, it's taking place. 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:08.159 It's place, and you know, it's the business model to 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:10.679 the business model of not owning a car and just 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:14.040 using Uber or some other source. Have something come by. 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:16.359 That's hard for a lot of people to conceptualize, even 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:19.399 though it appears they're already doing it. It's they've already 0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:21.879 started to do. People do things without realizing. There's an 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:24.240 I forget, which I think it's I can't remember the 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:28.640 poet Past are made by walking. That's what's happening here. 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:31.240 Past made by walking, and so I just like I'm 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:33.080 going to write a recap of what's happened since I 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:34.840 got rid of I saw in my car and I 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:36.960 have no vehicle, Like I have no vehicle, and the 0:19:36.960 --> 0:19:38.679 other like I called someone, I'm like, oh, we have 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:39.680 to go get this. I'm like, oh, I don't have 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:41.040 a car. How am I going to do that? Like, 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:42.560 you know, it doesn't mean you're not going to drive 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:44.080 a car, it doesn't mean you're not going to rent 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:46.640 a car. I've just rented a car up and I'm 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:49.000 going to try to put put it in terms of money, 0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:51.840 what I what I spent for that, what I used 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:53.639 to buy a car with. And when I called the 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:57.160 insurance company, I've had a car, you know, an insurance 0:19:57.160 --> 0:20:01.760 policy for years forever. And uh, they're like, what's the 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:03.760 car you're replacing with? I go, no car, and they're 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:05.239 like what I said, I never am going to own 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:07.240 a car. And it was the most fascinating discussion. I said, 0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:08.960 you better watch out for your business because I'm not 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:11.400 going to insurance. But then I sat down to breakfast 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:13.160 with someone who's a lawyer and said, you know, when 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:15.080 you get on a scooter, if you don't have car insurance, 0:20:15.119 --> 0:20:17.440 who covers if you hit someone when you're on a 0:20:17.480 --> 0:20:19.240 scooter like tho. I was like, oh my god, I 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:22.240 do need interest, so you need insurance something different? Well, 0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:24.160 but it gets taken away when you don't have a car. 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:25.800 It was fascinating and I'm like, oh my god, a 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:28.520 whole new business. Like but I was thinking, all car 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:30.440 insurance will go away. What will happen to those people? 0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:32.200 But then there's the only business of people who are 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:34.520 on the move. You have to be covered anyway. It 0:20:34.560 --> 0:20:36.800 was just interesting. Your amex probably covers you if you 0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:39.680 rent it, rent the scooter, don't know, but it's like, 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:41.840 that's the whole thing. But there's whole new businesses to 0:20:41.840 --> 0:20:43.879 be creative that. Immediately I was like, wow, I wouldn't 0:20:43.880 --> 0:20:45.919 it be interesting to go into the insurance business without 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:49.440 only a car, but having a mobile insurance, a moving insurance, 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:52.240 like you physically moving through the world. However you decide 0:20:52.240 --> 0:20:54.080 to do it. If you get into a vertical lift 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:57.280 and takeoff vehicles, you know there's are great, They're going 0:20:57.359 --> 0:20:59.200 to be cool. I was mentioning, I've been waiting for 0:20:59.240 --> 0:21:02.240 them for fIF They're coming. They'll be in San Francisco first, 0:21:02.280 --> 0:21:04.320 so you come and ride them and there are I've 0:21:04.320 --> 0:21:06.240 been tracking that There are a number of companies that 0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:11.960 are relatively close, including one that's an old battery electric version. Um, 0:21:12.000 --> 0:21:14.520 I'm going to stick with it. But we're still I'm 0:21:14.560 --> 0:21:18.800 waiting for my blade runner vehicle where the projection of 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:22.399 the highway is just a three three dimensional hologram that 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:25.399 you fly through. But hey, that was supposed to be. 0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:30.400 Here are Hollywood people telling you, all right, so when 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:32.120 are we going to have When are we gonna have 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:37.200 personalized VTOL cars and taxis? You will be dead, Berry, 0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:39.400 you will never experience. They may try one, but you're 0:21:39.400 --> 0:21:42.159 not going to be So we're see. I agree with you. 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:44.200 I think it's less than a hundred years but more 0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:47.879 than a decade. And I think it will be a 0:21:47.880 --> 0:21:51.720 slow transition because people very local, lester. They'll be human, 0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:55.280 that's right, that's another thing life extension. But there'll be 0:21:55.400 --> 0:21:57.320 human and cars at the same time. Just like here 0:21:57.320 --> 0:21:58.760 in New York. You know, there used to be the 0:21:58.800 --> 0:22:03.840 elevated the trains, and when they first started, a lot 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:05.439 of people got run over by them when they were 0:22:05.440 --> 0:22:07.480 down on the ground before they elevated where the high 0:22:07.480 --> 0:22:09.400 line was. That's why they built the high line because 0:22:09.400 --> 0:22:11.080 all these people are getting killed because they were like, 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:14.320 what's this. We have horses, and so horses would bang 0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:18.320 into these electric vehicles all the time, and then there 0:22:18.320 --> 0:22:20.760 weren't horses, and so that's what you know. There will 0:22:20.800 --> 0:22:24.320 be human drivers, but then there won't be like that's 0:22:24.359 --> 0:22:26.240 what's going out. And so I think that's what you 0:22:26.280 --> 0:22:28.800 have to think about, is this transition period when and 0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:30.879 it doesn't mean people won't drive in certain places or 0:22:30.880 --> 0:22:33.399 it's not, it'll just be different. It'll be just a 0:22:33.440 --> 0:22:36.000 different experience. So you go from the Washington Post to 0:22:36.000 --> 0:22:39.520 the Wall Street Journal, is that Mossberg got me there? 0:22:39.560 --> 0:22:43.399 My my most important mentor so now he was covering technology. 0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:47.200 He was the guy het a technology column, uh that 0:22:47.280 --> 0:22:50.919 he wrote for many years. He started it um. His 0:22:50.960 --> 0:22:53.399 first line of his first one was called personal Technology 0:22:53.440 --> 0:22:55.520 in the Wall Street Journal. And as he had covered 0:22:55.520 --> 0:22:57.760 the Defense Department, he had to the State Department. He was, 0:22:57.880 --> 0:23:00.439 you know, Washington reporter and he just was st geeky. 0:23:00.720 --> 0:23:02.679 And the first line of his column, which I think 0:23:02.760 --> 0:23:05.600 was still relevant today, was technology is too hard to 0:23:05.680 --> 0:23:08.160 use and it's not your fault, which I loved, which 0:23:08.160 --> 0:23:10.840 is like so smart because they were sort of testing you, 0:23:10.840 --> 0:23:16.680 you know, with the products that again. But okay, um, 0:23:17.000 --> 0:23:19.080 so he started that, and so he was there and 0:23:19.080 --> 0:23:20.760 I interviewed him for my book on I well, because 0:23:20.760 --> 0:23:24.359 he was the only person I perceived that understood the change. 0:23:24.440 --> 0:23:27.200 Like everybody else was like, Oh, it's just online services. 0:23:27.200 --> 0:23:30.119 We'll still have Time magazine. They're so important. I was like, no, 0:23:30.800 --> 0:23:34.040 my magazine is over, like you know, like you know, 0:23:34.119 --> 0:23:35.679 and he's the only one who got it. And he 0:23:35.720 --> 0:23:39.160 and I really clicked immediately, and uh started. He got 0:23:39.200 --> 0:23:40.840 me to come to the Journal to write about this 0:23:40.880 --> 0:23:43.160 because he thought the Journal was not writing about it properly. 0:23:43.200 --> 0:23:45.280 And I understood it, and I knew them all. I 0:23:45.359 --> 0:23:48.440 knew Jeff Bezos. I knew Jeff Bezos. Wasn't Jeff Bezos 0:23:48.480 --> 0:23:50.920 for a long time. Now he's Jeff Bezos Prime back 0:23:51.040 --> 0:23:52.439 right whatever. He was just a guy. He was just 0:23:52.440 --> 0:23:57.560 a startup guy that were really bad pants at a pants. Yeah, 0:23:57.600 --> 0:24:00.400 a lot of plead becky pants. Um, you know, it's 0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:02.440 so funny. They were all like the Google guys were 0:24:02.440 --> 0:24:05.679 in a garage, the um, you know, just all of 0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:07.600 them were like Ellen I met when he did this 0:24:07.640 --> 0:24:09.439 thing called x dot com. He you know, he had 0:24:09.440 --> 0:24:11.359 a full head of hair and was kind of geeky, 0:24:11.520 --> 0:24:13.840 like what was what was elan? Originally? Was he part 0:24:13.880 --> 0:24:16.080 of the PayPal No, he had a company called x 0:24:16.160 --> 0:24:19.320 dot com and that was a payment company, and he 0:24:20.040 --> 0:24:23.440 and they fought a lot PayPal PayPal, there was that group, 0:24:23.480 --> 0:24:26.520 and then they they so he eventually they did march, 0:24:26.600 --> 0:24:28.400 but there were two separate companies and they were quite 0:24:28.920 --> 0:24:31.960 quite unpleasant rivals. And then they got together. So a 0:24:31.960 --> 0:24:34.399 lot of people told that their big genius wasn't selling 0:24:34.400 --> 0:24:37.240 it to eBay. Right. A lot of people came out 0:24:37.240 --> 0:24:41.560 of that PayPal group, Mosque and Peter Thiel and a 0:24:41.600 --> 0:24:45.320 whole run of folks in the tech world trace back 0:24:45.359 --> 0:24:50.040 to that. So so I remember Walt's early works specifically 0:24:50.280 --> 0:24:55.800 as a reviewer of services and computers and technology, but 0:24:55.920 --> 0:25:00.880 you really came in covering the Internet business, the of 0:25:00.880 --> 0:25:03.560 of the Internet, not so much as reviewer, but as 0:25:03.600 --> 0:25:06.280 a straight up economic journalist, financial journal I was a 0:25:06.280 --> 0:25:08.720 financial journalist. I think I had an interest in the products, 0:25:08.720 --> 0:25:10.600 and of course, you know, well it was great to 0:25:10.600 --> 0:25:13.000 have Walter's de partner eventually because it was he had 0:25:13.000 --> 0:25:15.240 that part of it covered. Um, he's a reporter to 0:25:15.359 --> 0:25:17.040 by the way, like he was. One of the great 0:25:17.040 --> 0:25:18.959 things about Walt Musburg as a reviewer was that he 0:25:19.000 --> 0:25:21.560 was a reporter first and foremost, and so he reported 0:25:21.560 --> 0:25:24.080 out these products. A lot of people who covered tech 0:25:24.080 --> 0:25:26.560 we're just fan boys and just you know, just ridiculous. 0:25:26.600 --> 0:25:29.199 And well, sometimes he loved stuff, sometimes he disliked it. 0:25:29.240 --> 0:25:30.919 So it was so fair, you know, in terms of 0:25:30.920 --> 0:25:32.760 how he did it. And I came in and covered 0:25:32.800 --> 0:25:35.280 the business of it and tried to understand the stock 0:25:35.440 --> 0:25:37.280 stuff and because there was a lot of you know, 0:25:37.440 --> 0:25:39.640 early froth around a lot of these companies and what 0:25:39.720 --> 0:25:42.800 was what was not true, what was true, what was 0:25:42.840 --> 0:25:44.879 a Ponzi scheme? What was not? And so I covered 0:25:44.920 --> 0:25:48.840 these early businesses, and I was quite bullish on the 0:25:48.880 --> 0:25:51.880 whole big air sector. A lot of reporters who covered 0:25:51.880 --> 0:25:54.720 the media at the time kept calling telling me I 0:25:54.760 --> 0:25:57.040 was covering CB radio or a fad, and I didn't 0:25:57.040 --> 0:25:59.239 think it was a bad I remember, those are One 0:25:59.280 --> 0:26:00.720 of the guys who called the CB rate to me 0:26:00.760 --> 0:26:03.240 is now working for a digital content company and he's 0:26:03.280 --> 0:26:07.520 like Mr Internet Now. It's always amazing how how people 0:26:07.560 --> 0:26:10.680 are still willing to believe whatever it is that keeps 0:26:10.680 --> 0:26:13.600 their paycheck flowing. Well, I was very worried. That's the 0:26:13.600 --> 0:26:15.439 reason I left the Washington Post because I was like, 0:26:15.480 --> 0:26:17.359 when I loved Don Graham, who's the owner of the 0:26:17.359 --> 0:26:19.560 Washington Post, but when I left, and he's such a 0:26:19.720 --> 0:26:23.600 like an incredibly cordial and just a fine person. And 0:26:23.640 --> 0:26:25.560 he said, you know, Carol, why are you leaving? And 0:26:25.560 --> 0:26:28.000 I said, the waters rising and you're on the lower floodplain. 0:26:28.640 --> 0:26:30.320 And what was their response to that? And he was 0:26:30.359 --> 0:26:32.119 like ha ha ha, And I'm like, no, really, you 0:26:32.200 --> 0:26:34.959 better because I had covered retail. I had covered retails, 0:26:34.960 --> 0:26:38.280 So I covered Walmart's entrance into the retail space, the 0:26:38.320 --> 0:26:43.200 death of wonderful retailers like Heckinger's and h. Woody's, Woodward 0:26:43.280 --> 0:26:45.720 Lowthrop and garf Ankles were the two like the death 0:26:45.720 --> 0:26:48.280 of depart You could see what was happening in the 0:26:48.280 --> 0:26:51.439 original problem was Walmart, you know, and the big box stores. 0:26:51.480 --> 0:26:54.000 But then it became Amazon and you could see glimmers 0:26:54.040 --> 0:26:58.080 of it with with Craigslist and hitting the classified business. 0:26:58.400 --> 0:27:00.919 Amazon still wasn't yet they but you could see it 0:27:01.040 --> 0:27:03.600 see where it was going. And so um, so I 0:27:03.680 --> 0:27:06.480 was like Wall Street Journal has a more defensible position 0:27:06.720 --> 0:27:10.800 in media right now. Um, and so I went there, 0:27:10.880 --> 0:27:12.840 I thought. But then the Washington Post, of course has 0:27:12.840 --> 0:27:15.600 revived itself with ownership by bring it full circle. He 0:27:16.000 --> 0:27:18.960 has done a wonderful job. I used to full disclosure, 0:27:18.960 --> 0:27:24.080 I used to contribute to the Washington Post up until Um. 0:27:24.920 --> 0:27:28.399 I think that the Washington Post has reasserted itself as 0:27:28.480 --> 0:27:31.600 one of the three major papers in New York, and 0:27:31.640 --> 0:27:34.119 you've written for all three figured of economics. They figured 0:27:34.119 --> 0:27:35.520 out it's not just that it's a rich guy owning, 0:27:35.560 --> 0:27:39.160 it's actually making money. They it's not none of these businesses, 0:27:39.240 --> 0:27:43.080 not Times. They're not like massive money making throwing off 0:27:43.160 --> 0:27:47.200 money business. Street Journal always had a million subscribers, which 0:27:47.240 --> 0:27:51.000 is online subscribers, which is a lot for probably The 0:27:51.080 --> 0:27:54.280 Times isn't the best in this area. Well, post Trump election, 0:27:54.480 --> 0:27:57.080 their subscription base has exploded. Also, they've done a good 0:27:57.160 --> 0:27:59.199 job with a product like you can't you can't separate 0:27:59.240 --> 0:28:01.640 the product from the text. Their product is really quite good. 0:28:01.920 --> 0:28:03.639 And so I think a lot of these people figured 0:28:03.680 --> 0:28:05.840 it out, and with the help of Bezos, who wasn't 0:28:05.840 --> 0:28:08.440 going to be a twitchy owner. Neither of the Grahams, 0:28:08.480 --> 0:28:11.760 whether they were wonderful owners. Um, I think that they 0:28:12.000 --> 0:28:14.560 sort of made it through the difficult period and it 0:28:14.680 --> 0:28:17.960 just rationalize what they were doing, and I could find 0:28:18.000 --> 0:28:20.280 I can tell you every time I get my update 0:28:20.440 --> 0:28:23.479 from Amazon that my bill for the Washington Post has 0:28:23.480 --> 0:28:26.040 been passing stuff like that. That's an enormous benefit for 0:28:26.040 --> 0:28:28.920 stuff like that like that, just great journalism, great product. 0:28:28.960 --> 0:28:30.920 I think of things always in terms of product. Is 0:28:30.960 --> 0:28:32.800 that a good product? Like when I make stuff, this 0:28:32.960 --> 0:28:34.520 is a good product. And if it's not a good product, 0:28:34.560 --> 0:28:36.760 I stopped making it. And then, unlike a lot of journalists, 0:28:36.960 --> 0:28:38.960 I'll stop doing something if I don't think it's a 0:28:39.240 --> 0:28:42.360 it's something that's worthwhile to the users, the readers, or 0:28:42.400 --> 0:28:45.760 whoever is doing it. What what products? What products do 0:28:45.800 --> 0:28:49.120 you think are really strong these days that recode box 0:28:49.280 --> 0:28:51.920 is doing? And what are you watching? Because hey, let's 0:28:51.920 --> 0:28:53.800 see how this developed? Is this too new? Is this 0:28:53.880 --> 0:28:55.640 too different? Um? I'm i gonna tell you a new 0:28:55.680 --> 0:28:56.920 idea I have that I love. We thought it the 0:28:57.000 --> 0:28:58.479 other night. I was standing there and like, oh, this, 0:28:58.800 --> 0:29:00.720 well if it's not out yet, but it's not. But 0:29:00.760 --> 0:29:02.320 I was thinking, this is what I'm gonna do next. 0:29:02.760 --> 0:29:05.440 I'm always making something else, like I'm always look when 0:29:05.440 --> 0:29:08.200 I started doing podcasting. For example, UM, when I started 0:29:08.240 --> 0:29:10.080 doing Recode, everyone was like, what are you doing. I'm like, no, 0:29:10.120 --> 0:29:14.760 We're gonna have a voicey news based journalistic base but voicy, 0:29:14.920 --> 0:29:18.120 funny site. Everyone's copied it since like what we did, 0:29:18.240 --> 0:29:20.560 So it was Walton, I really did pioneer. When you 0:29:20.600 --> 0:29:24.680 say voicey, what do you mean by that? Like Yahoo? 0:29:24.720 --> 0:29:30.800 When I was covering Yahoo, Yahoo sucks, here's why narky. No, no, no, 0:29:30.880 --> 0:29:32.880 we backed it with journalism, you know what I mean? 0:29:33.240 --> 0:29:36.760 Or blunt blunt like guess what the guy who's running 0:29:36.880 --> 0:29:39.600 Uber ain't going to be running Uber And here's why. 0:29:39.760 --> 0:29:42.040 You know what I mean, like saying things journalists say 0:29:42.040 --> 0:29:44.520 to each other, but backing it up. And one of 0:29:44.520 --> 0:29:45.880 the things that I had was it used to be 0:29:45.880 --> 0:29:49.080 at the journal it's the to be sure statement that's 0:29:49.080 --> 0:29:51.720 always in these stupid stories, to be sure. Like when 0:29:51.720 --> 0:29:53.760 I was covering this company within it was that's the 0:29:53.760 --> 0:29:57.800 way they yes, like this online grocery that what was it? 0:29:58.160 --> 0:30:00.760 That first there was one for it, a lot of 0:30:00.760 --> 0:30:04.600 money behind it. Listen, it's now figured out itself. At 0:30:04.600 --> 0:30:06.320 the time, it was an insane like you looked at 0:30:06.320 --> 0:30:10.080 the numbers, You're like are you kidding me? And Cosmo, Yeah, 0:30:10.120 --> 0:30:12.320 that one one of them. And in New York City 0:30:13.880 --> 0:30:16.080 like it was, it was you just sat there like 0:30:16.360 --> 0:30:19.520 you're losing so much money on every delivery. It doesn't 0:30:19.600 --> 0:30:21.920 mean it didn't work. Prime to work like you know 0:30:21.960 --> 0:30:23.720 what I mean, there's not there's ways to figure it out. 0:30:23.760 --> 0:30:25.880 The idea was a good one. I always try to 0:30:25.880 --> 0:30:29.800 separate the idea again because he he talks about Chewi 0:30:30.000 --> 0:30:34.080 being the modern dot com and now ju Wayne Wright, 0:30:34.320 --> 0:30:36.880 who was the entrepremour behind pet stot com, is now 0:30:36.920 --> 0:30:39.800 with the real real What an amazing business that is, right, 0:30:39.880 --> 0:30:43.560 So that's the whole point. And so so when I 0:30:43.600 --> 0:30:46.040 was writing about it, it was you. I was like, 0:30:46.080 --> 0:30:48.520 this is this is this is terrible business. They can 0:30:48.560 --> 0:30:51.840 scant go public. This is insane. And the editor at 0:30:51.840 --> 0:30:53.680 the journal was like, well you have to, like, you know, 0:30:54.080 --> 0:30:55.960 point out that this you could be wrong. I'm like, 0:30:56.120 --> 0:30:58.720 I'm not wrong, this is like and and they were 0:30:58.800 --> 0:31:00.520 like they're like, ha been And then you have to 0:31:00.560 --> 0:31:03.040 do this to be sure. Some people say that this 0:31:03.160 --> 0:31:05.200 business and I was like, to be sure some idiots 0:31:05.200 --> 0:31:09.520 say and it was like, let me tut these idiots. 0:31:09.560 --> 0:31:11.320 But but then I ran my own site, and then 0:31:11.360 --> 0:31:13.600 I could say that like I can say that because 0:31:13.640 --> 0:31:15.720 it's my site. And so we sort of pioneered that 0:31:16.080 --> 0:31:18.200 and then it changed like everyone copied it. That's what 0:31:18.200 --> 0:31:20.680 always happened. And then it wasn't the right like having 0:31:20.720 --> 0:31:23.280 analog websites that people go to, it's a losing game 0:31:23.320 --> 0:31:26.440 in in in the advertising business online. So then I 0:31:26.480 --> 0:31:28.440 was like sitting there and I saw what is an 0:31:28.480 --> 0:31:31.680 analog site? You mean like meat spaces or what. No. No, no, 0:31:31.800 --> 0:31:34.320 just like the way we were doing recode ten years ago, 0:31:34.440 --> 0:31:37.520 we changed it like it shouldn't look like a newspaper online. 0:31:37.560 --> 0:31:39.560 It should be something not just that. No, we we 0:31:39.640 --> 0:31:41.920 did something pioneering, but then it didn't work anymore, right, 0:31:41.920 --> 0:31:44.040 and we tried something else, like I think the ability 0:31:44.080 --> 0:31:46.200 to try something else, and so it just it's a 0:31:46.200 --> 0:31:48.560 long way of getting into the podcast. I was sitting there, 0:31:48.560 --> 0:31:51.320 I'm like, I like these these mobile devices are now great, 0:31:51.400 --> 0:31:53.880 these apps are now great. I'm gonna do this. I'm 0:31:53.880 --> 0:31:56.520 gonna do interviews because because I had my code conference, 0:31:56.520 --> 0:31:58.479 the Code conference at Walt and I did and I 0:31:58.520 --> 0:32:01.600 was like, why not extend three sixty five days a year? 0:32:02.000 --> 0:32:04.000 Like I can only do seventeen interviews a CODE. It's 0:32:04.000 --> 0:32:06.680 always Elon Mosk or Mark zucker from but there's always 0:32:06.720 --> 0:32:10.040 fascinating people that one like you're doing here, And so 0:32:10.080 --> 0:32:11.840 I was like, there's so many cool people that I 0:32:11.840 --> 0:32:14.040 could do the same thing. People love the CODE conference. 0:32:14.040 --> 0:32:16.320 Why not bring it out and make it free and 0:32:16.360 --> 0:32:18.240 make it sense. So I started doing these interviews and 0:32:18.240 --> 0:32:20.520 I remember like I literally had an intern in me 0:32:20.640 --> 0:32:22.320 do it, and I'm running like I'm the head of 0:32:22.360 --> 0:32:23.720 the site and I'm like, I'm not doing that anymore. 0:32:23.720 --> 0:32:26.040 I'm doing this, And so we started doing it and 0:32:26.040 --> 0:32:28.120 a lot of people had opinions are like, you know, 0:32:28.280 --> 0:32:30.240 people aren't going to listen for an hour. I'm like, yeah, 0:32:30.320 --> 0:32:32.240 they are, like you know they I was like I 0:32:32.360 --> 0:32:35.080 literally had that yes exactly people, And I'm like, you 0:32:35.080 --> 0:32:37.560 don't know, give me. People are in cars, people are 0:32:37.560 --> 0:32:40.680 on bikes, and people are in treadmills. Millennials like snack 0:32:40.720 --> 0:32:43.040 a Well, no they don't. They're smart. People are smart. 0:32:43.240 --> 0:32:44.640 So it was like, well, I don't want these people 0:32:44.640 --> 0:32:46.560 who like snack ables. They don't listen to me anyway. 0:32:46.680 --> 0:32:48.480 So it was like I literally spent a lot of 0:32:48.520 --> 0:32:50.600 time and I was like, I'm certain I'm right about this. 0:32:50.960 --> 0:32:53.400 But then when we did the Galloway thing, Scott came 0:32:53.440 --> 0:32:55.000 on the show because I had heard him at a 0:32:55.000 --> 0:32:57.400 at a conference. I thought it was brilliant. It's got Galloway, 0:32:57.400 --> 0:33:00.720 wo would you pivot with? And know I had interviewed 0:33:01.000 --> 0:33:04.960 Ellen Zuckerberg, like the head of Google everything, and the 0:33:05.080 --> 0:33:07.960 numbers for Scott when I saw them come in off 0:33:07.960 --> 0:33:10.560 the freaking chart. And also he predicted the Amazon whole 0:33:10.560 --> 0:33:13.480 food That thing happened the week that is such, predicted 0:33:13.480 --> 0:33:16.480 it a year in advance, goes on your show a 0:33:16.640 --> 0:33:19.800 week in advance and does it, and a week later, bang, 0:33:19.920 --> 0:33:23.680 and people lost minds. People like, oh, he works in branding. 0:33:23.760 --> 0:33:26.600 He must have known. He wrote about it literally twelve 0:33:27.280 --> 0:33:29.720 so anyway, so he so that show went off the 0:33:29.840 --> 0:33:32.080 charts before that happened too, and I was like, Hey, 0:33:32.080 --> 0:33:34.160 I'm gonna have one again and see what happens again 0:33:34.480 --> 0:33:36.800 because it was our rapport, our discussion. He was so 0:33:36.880 --> 0:33:39.200 insightful and smart, and so I was like, we're going 0:33:39.240 --> 0:33:41.480 to start another podcast and it's going to be only 0:33:41.760 --> 0:33:44.560 thirty minutes, maybe twenty minutes, and it's not gonna be long. 0:33:44.560 --> 0:33:47.520 It's gonna be quick, fast, topical in this and now 0:33:47.640 --> 0:33:49.360 something like it needs to be an hour. I'm like, no, 0:33:49.480 --> 0:33:52.240 it doesn't. It needs to be this link because this 0:33:52.320 --> 0:33:54.280 is what this is what it is, and it creates 0:33:54.280 --> 0:33:56.760 a little scarcity, keeps people coming exactly. We may do 0:33:56.840 --> 0:33:58.920 another one during the week. That's it. That's the talks. 0:33:58.960 --> 0:34:01.760 We've got a lot of advertising. A yeah, um, and 0:34:01.840 --> 0:34:04.400 so what what you know? You just have to be 0:34:04.440 --> 0:34:06.080 like you have to know what you are or know 0:34:06.160 --> 0:34:09.399 what you're It's like cooking, Like I'm making a cake now, 0:34:09.480 --> 0:34:10.880 and a lot of people want to say what you 0:34:10.920 --> 0:34:13.200 really should do is be boring you. I'm like, yeah, 0:34:13.200 --> 0:34:15.400 but I'm making a cake and like, but be burging on. 0:34:15.440 --> 0:34:20.040 I'm like, yeah, go make your own. And so I 0:34:20.040 --> 0:34:21.600 think people who are good at product know what the 0:34:21.600 --> 0:34:24.560 product is and then are willing to make changes to 0:34:24.640 --> 0:34:27.200 it when it doesn't work. So our conference, for example, 0:34:27.440 --> 0:34:30.000 I'm still trying to figure out what we've had seventeen 0:34:30.080 --> 0:34:32.960 years making so much money at these conferences. By the way, 0:34:32.960 --> 0:34:34.920 podcasts make a fortune because I think of things and 0:34:35.160 --> 0:34:37.520 would hope businesses all the time. So anyway, so one 0:34:37.520 --> 0:34:40.080 of the things like I'm Robb rethinking, like what isn't conference? 0:34:40.120 --> 0:34:43.920 We have seventeen really successful years, but it's changed. So 0:34:44.000 --> 0:34:46.279 I'm like, I sit along, you know, and even to 0:34:46.320 --> 0:34:48.440 the point and we're not doing this, But should I 0:34:48.520 --> 0:34:50.400 keep doing it? Is it the right thing anymore? What 0:34:50.520 --> 0:34:54.040 is the next thing? And so I'm constantly thinking, and 0:34:54.040 --> 0:34:55.279 that's why I come up with this new thing that 0:34:55.280 --> 0:34:56.960 I think is going to make a lot of money. 0:34:57.280 --> 0:34:58.839 Also tell us what it is. I'm not gonna tell 0:34:58.840 --> 0:35:00.960 you what it is. It's not that product. Well, when 0:35:00.960 --> 0:35:03.080 it comes out, you'll have to exist. It exists in 0:35:03.160 --> 0:35:05.000 Carra Swisher's break. That's it. So you got to be 0:35:05.000 --> 0:35:07.120 careful crossing. The thing that I think about what Walton 0:35:07.160 --> 0:35:09.279 I did is like when I think about what I'm 0:35:09.320 --> 0:35:12.120 really proud of is we created a lot of jobs 0:35:12.239 --> 0:35:15.720 for people, Like families lived on one idea that Walton 0:35:15.800 --> 0:35:19.680 I had in nineteen. Whenever we did a two thousand 0:35:19.680 --> 0:35:21.960 and two, Walton I thought of something in two two 0:35:22.360 --> 0:35:26.680 and dozens of people have jobs. It's fascinating to me 0:35:26.800 --> 0:35:29.040 to think that way. Like, and that was the all 0:35:29.080 --> 0:35:33.640 Things Digital platform for conferences. Yeah, all Things Digital conferences, 0:35:34.160 --> 0:35:35.960 you know, came out of a single idea how many 0:35:36.000 --> 0:35:39.080 conferences are you guys do in a year? Now, well, see, 0:35:39.520 --> 0:35:41.359 what is a conference? Right? Look we did this live 0:35:41.600 --> 0:35:43.800 a bunch of people in a room. Yeah, but I 0:35:43.880 --> 0:35:45.360 don't I don't think that way. Like we have the 0:35:45.400 --> 0:35:48.200 main conference, we have Code Commerce that's coming up in September, 0:35:48.280 --> 0:35:51.319 We've got code Media. Um. But then Scott and I 0:35:51.360 --> 0:35:53.319 did a live pivot the other day that was huge. 0:35:53.360 --> 0:35:56.520 We sold out fourteen seconds we sold that. So now 0:35:56.520 --> 0:36:00.759 I'm like, oh, live podcast things. You know, the pod 0:36:00.880 --> 0:36:04.839 saves America? I don't really for two years? Really well, 0:36:05.080 --> 0:36:07.239 but in a different like what should they be? Three 0:36:07.440 --> 0:36:09.680 d people? Should be five hundred people? Should you get sponsors? 0:36:09.800 --> 0:36:16.160 The sponsors were thrilled. Try y is is really been 0:36:16.160 --> 0:36:19.960 doing that for decades? Yes they have exactly, but but 0:36:20.000 --> 0:36:22.920 what about moving them around the country? Why not exactly? 0:36:22.960 --> 0:36:24.840 So I'm thinking about that. So is that a conference? 0:36:24.840 --> 0:36:26.560 It kind of is. What if you could add other 0:36:26.640 --> 0:36:30.279 things onto a live podcast? Put comics there, put like 0:36:30.680 --> 0:36:32.960 make it an event. What if you can add experiential 0:36:33.000 --> 0:36:35.600 pop ups to it. I'm like constantly thinking, like, what's 0:36:35.640 --> 0:36:40.839 the next version of analog gathering? That's smart? Smart is 0:36:41.080 --> 0:36:43.920 the one thing the brand is always The brands I'd 0:36:43.960 --> 0:36:46.840 like to make are always like what's smart? Like what 0:36:46.920 --> 0:36:49.080 do smart people want to listen to? What is additive 0:36:49.120 --> 0:36:51.600 to someone's life? Every time I get a tweet from 0:36:51.640 --> 0:36:53.920 someone around Pivot, I'm getting a lot of them around Pivot. 0:36:55.120 --> 0:36:57.000 I just really enjoy it and I always come up 0:36:57.000 --> 0:36:59.839 with an insight. I'm like, who can ask for more 0:36:59.840 --> 0:37:02.080 than that? What you're describing what you just did with 0:37:02.120 --> 0:37:05.719 Scott is quote an evening with I mean, that's how 0:37:05.760 --> 0:37:07.759 that's been, but it can be seen like and then 0:37:07.920 --> 0:37:09.400 then the other day I was like, we have to 0:37:09.480 --> 0:37:11.240 have swag. We can make a lot of money and swag, 0:37:11.239 --> 0:37:13.400 Like I'm always cut. That's what I want to think about. 0:37:13.600 --> 0:37:14.960 And one of the things I like to think about 0:37:15.000 --> 0:37:16.640 in products. Now we're gonna have swag. You can have. 0:37:16.640 --> 0:37:19.960 You'll give you one free, but only one. Uma. I 0:37:20.000 --> 0:37:23.680 never give away anything free. Um. The the things that 0:37:23.719 --> 0:37:26.440 I think about when they were thinking about products, is 0:37:26.440 --> 0:37:30.640 is it useful? Is it entertaining? Is it must have? 0:37:30.960 --> 0:37:32.680 If you have one of those things, you usually have 0:37:32.719 --> 0:37:34.919 a very successful projects. One. You don't need all three, 0:37:34.960 --> 0:37:37.160 but if you have all three, that's killer. It's a killer. 0:37:37.520 --> 0:37:39.680 You have two, but it has to be one of 0:37:39.680 --> 0:37:43.360 those three things, right, And you don't think like a journalist, 0:37:43.480 --> 0:37:46.560 you think like an entrepreneur, right exactly, And it's evident 0:37:46.760 --> 0:37:49.960 in your discussion. I am going to uh, I do 0:37:50.080 --> 0:37:54.960 journalism by the way you do journalism. I consume journalism. 0:37:55.000 --> 0:37:58.520 My extra special guest today is Kara Swisher. She is 0:37:58.560 --> 0:38:01.560 in desperate need of a real New York bagel and 0:38:01.600 --> 0:38:06.720 has been unable to find one. I'm to harsh your grin. Well, 0:38:06.760 --> 0:38:11.760 apparently that thing is a blasphemy over coming from Brooklyn. 0:38:11.840 --> 0:38:14.160 I never have lived. Well, there are no bagels in Brooklyn. 0:38:14.200 --> 0:38:17.160 I don't know what anybody could possibly fell in love 0:38:17.160 --> 0:38:20.600 with someone in Brooklyn. What can I say? Google best 0:38:20.600 --> 0:38:24.840 bagels in Brooklyn. You'll find a list anywhere along I 0:38:25.200 --> 0:38:26.920 know where they are there on Second Avenue in fifty 0:38:27.480 --> 0:38:30.239 I know where the bagels are so up here. So 0:38:30.280 --> 0:38:32.280 you mentioned you fell in love with someone in Brooklyn, 0:38:32.400 --> 0:38:35.200 and you mentioned I just mentioned Google. I gotta ask 0:38:35.239 --> 0:38:39.960 you a random question. Please your disclosures. You don't mince 0:38:40.160 --> 0:38:44.400 any words whatsoever. Fifteen years ago we did this. It's like, Hey, 0:38:44.680 --> 0:38:47.319 here's who my spouse is, Here's who she works. For 0:38:47.680 --> 0:38:50.160 here's this, I don't get paid. Her money is hers 0:38:50.239 --> 0:38:54.320 money is There's no conflict. That's like a really blunt, 0:38:54.400 --> 0:38:57.279 straightforward that was very innovative at the time. It was 0:38:57.800 --> 0:39:01.239 because we trusted readers and we wanted. You know, my 0:39:01.440 --> 0:39:04.000 ex was a very prominent executive at Google and then 0:39:04.080 --> 0:39:07.280 later became CTO of America. UM, I had to meaning 0:39:07.320 --> 0:39:10.200 she was working for the Obama White House as technology 0:39:10.360 --> 0:39:13.080 she's the chief Technology Officer in the United States. Um. 0:39:13.120 --> 0:39:15.239 But before that, she was a pretty prominent executive Megan 0:39:15.280 --> 0:39:18.719 Smith at Google. She she ran Google dot org. She 0:39:18.840 --> 0:39:22.319 was she bought things, she bought the Google Earth for them. 0:39:22.360 --> 0:39:24.000 I mean, she did a lot of stuff over there, 0:39:24.480 --> 0:39:27.400 and um, and so I wanted I actually urged her 0:39:27.400 --> 0:39:30.040 to go there when it was very small. Um, hey, 0:39:30.040 --> 0:39:32.200 these guys are onto something. Yes, I was like, these 0:39:32.200 --> 0:39:34.720 guys are special, Like you know, she was looking around 0:39:34.760 --> 0:39:37.040 she was running another company and good advice. So yeah, 0:39:37.040 --> 0:39:39.759 it was good advice. Thank You're welcome. Megan. She's a 0:39:39.880 --> 0:39:41.880 very lovely house in Washington, d C. Do to that, 0:39:42.640 --> 0:39:45.719 so she should have several wish I don't want to 0:39:45.719 --> 0:39:48.520 go into it. So anyway, she's doing just fine. Um. 0:39:48.680 --> 0:39:51.440 So so I wanted to disclose and you can't do 0:39:51.440 --> 0:39:52.920 that in a newspaper, and I thought, why not be 0:39:53.000 --> 0:39:56.479 cleared everybody? So we trust the reader too. We don't 0:39:56.480 --> 0:39:58.680 have to say. One of the things General's trying to 0:39:58.719 --> 0:40:00.840 do is like I'm completely even handed. It's like, no, 0:40:00.920 --> 0:40:03.520 you're not. You have things that you don't want people 0:40:03.560 --> 0:40:06.240 to grab onto them. I foresaw sort of this Twitter 0:40:06.320 --> 0:40:09.040 day where everybody could do gotcha to you, So before 0:40:09.040 --> 0:40:11.279 anybody could get you, just explain and then we trust 0:40:11.320 --> 0:40:14.120 the readers to be smart. And so that's Walton I did. 0:40:14.120 --> 0:40:16.440 We full disclosure on a lot of stuff right as 0:40:16.520 --> 0:40:18.279 much as we could, and there as much that was 0:40:18.400 --> 0:40:21.279 relevant I think was it was it and people love it. 0:40:21.320 --> 0:40:23.320 They just they like it. Again, it's a respect for 0:40:23.360 --> 0:40:25.759 readers that we think about that well, we don't think 0:40:25.760 --> 0:40:31.040 they're stupid. Well, that's important to actually let people think, um, 0:40:31.120 --> 0:40:33.120 you know what you're doing. You have nothing to hide, 0:40:33.440 --> 0:40:36.279 you know. It goes back to Hunter Thompson basically saying, hey, 0:40:36.320 --> 0:40:41.880 I'm not unbiased. If you are my biases, I'm Hunter S. Thompson. 0:40:42.520 --> 0:40:44.440 You'll figure it out. Let's let's talk a little bit 0:40:44.440 --> 0:40:48.839 about silicon Valley. You've lived in San Francisco for five years, right, 0:40:49.400 --> 0:40:51.880 we could talk about we can talk about this how 0:40:51.960 --> 0:40:53.800 much the city has changed. But let's let's go a 0:40:53.840 --> 0:40:59.320 little south down to the valley. Um, how has Silicon 0:40:59.520 --> 0:41:04.200 Valley changed over the past. It's just money, just massive 0:41:04.200 --> 0:41:07.439 amounts of massive amounts of capital and success has sort 0:41:07.480 --> 0:41:10.520 of and and and the influence and power. And I 0:41:10.560 --> 0:41:12.279 think one of the things that's interesting, sort of like 0:41:12.800 --> 0:41:15.600 I would be akin to watching Hollywood go from Orange 0:41:15.600 --> 0:41:19.160 Groves to the power Louis B. Mayer and stuff like that. 0:41:19.400 --> 0:41:21.400 And I think it was really you know, most of 0:41:21.400 --> 0:41:24.400 the people I had covered and now the captains of 0:41:24.440 --> 0:41:26.960 industry as the richest people in the world, by the way, 0:41:26.960 --> 0:41:30.080 on every list, the people they weren't that they were 0:41:30.120 --> 0:41:33.319 just startups. And so I think some of them have 0:41:33.840 --> 0:41:37.080 stayed true to the people they are. Others have been 0:41:37.080 --> 0:41:40.839 warped by money and not understanding their power and not 0:41:41.520 --> 0:41:45.080 understand the consequences of what they've built. Others have been, 0:41:45.120 --> 0:41:47.960 you know, plunged into these ridiculous wealth bubbles where they 0:41:48.000 --> 0:41:50.279 go from the airplane to the car to their home 0:41:50.840 --> 0:41:54.359 and they don't understand what they've done, Like they don't 0:41:54.360 --> 0:41:58.080 spend They surround themselves by people who's who's interest is 0:41:58.080 --> 0:42:01.080 in pleasing them. Um, it's often when then I run 0:42:01.080 --> 0:42:02.839 into him, like Mark Andrees and I have known each 0:42:02.840 --> 0:42:05.359 other since he was very young and I was very young, 0:42:05.880 --> 0:42:08.319 and you know, I think very few people he's like 0:42:08.360 --> 0:42:10.680 the genius, you know, Mark with his giant brain. But 0:42:10.719 --> 0:42:14.040 by the way, when I did my interview with him, 0:42:14.080 --> 0:42:16.759 I got all these emails complaining that they could not 0:42:16.920 --> 0:42:21.120 listen to it on two X because he speaks so quickly. 0:42:21.200 --> 0:42:23.879 But you know, he's like very few people will say something. 0:42:24.000 --> 0:42:26.160 I'm like, that's stupid, and he's like what, And I'm like, oh, 0:42:26.200 --> 0:42:28.520 I'm sorry. He's not used to hearing that, but he is. 0:42:28.560 --> 0:42:30.000 He's actually one of the people who will go back 0:42:30.040 --> 0:42:32.359 and forth. But you know, even like you know, just 0:42:32.400 --> 0:42:35.480 a lot of them, he's actually quite good. He he 0:42:35.600 --> 0:42:38.279 always thought a lot about himself, like and I don't 0:42:38.320 --> 0:42:40.279 mind that. Well, you have to in order to go out. 0:42:40.360 --> 0:42:44.360 And he was confident from the get go. Shouldn't have 0:42:44.360 --> 0:42:48.439 been um, well, he turned out tinsight bias he could 0:42:48.440 --> 0:42:51.759 should have. He's achieved a modicum of success, Like whatever, 0:42:51.800 --> 0:42:55.040 I don't care, right, exactly. But but but he wasn't 0:42:55.840 --> 0:42:59.080 what my pushback to you is, he wasn't an arrogant 0:42:59.160 --> 0:43:04.839 jerk about it and Silicon, well do tell but he was, Yes, 0:43:04.880 --> 0:43:08.960 he was just no, no, no, he's the same person. 0:43:09.080 --> 0:43:11.560 He's the same person, which I like. I appreciate someone 0:43:11.600 --> 0:43:14.799 like that. I appreciate like or Mark benny Off. I 0:43:14.880 --> 0:43:19.040 love talking to Mark ben right or um smart, insightful, 0:43:19.080 --> 0:43:22.279 insightful and he thinks of himself he does, but I 0:43:22.400 --> 0:43:24.560 enjoy talking to him. He's really like he is what 0:43:24.600 --> 0:43:26.840 he is like those people give us the list of 0:43:27.000 --> 0:43:29.800 arrogant jerks you enjoy speaking with. You know, very different 0:43:29.800 --> 0:43:32.560 people can be the different ways. You know, Larry Page, 0:43:32.560 --> 0:43:34.319 I don't know where he's gone to. He's hidden off, 0:43:34.440 --> 0:43:36.719 kind of disappeared, he has, but he's always was like that. 0:43:36.800 --> 0:43:39.080 He was always he was sort of a he can 0:43:39.160 --> 0:43:41.680 now afford to do that? Was it him or Surgery 0:43:41.760 --> 0:43:44.480 who was more of the serge was more of the 0:43:44.600 --> 0:43:50.680 quiet one. Larry is Larry, but Paige Rank was really his. Yes, 0:43:50.880 --> 0:43:54.839 Larry is really so brainy, so smart, so substantive, like 0:43:55.000 --> 0:43:58.880 really special mind. Um. But you know they're all different 0:43:58.920 --> 0:44:01.000 that there, they differ read but you know, and then 0:44:01.000 --> 0:44:03.120 you get all sort of the young startup people that 0:44:03.160 --> 0:44:06.200 are now older. You know, where do you put Peter 0:44:06.280 --> 0:44:11.879 Teal in this brilliant, brilliant guy appalling of points of view, many, many, 0:44:11.960 --> 0:44:14.920 many appalling points of view? Did you get around to 0:44:14.960 --> 0:44:18.040 reading conspiracy? I read his first of all, not his book, 0:44:18.120 --> 0:44:21.359 the book about the Gawker litigation, but you know that 0:44:21.440 --> 0:44:23.319 to me just sent me over the edge, like doing 0:44:23.320 --> 0:44:26.319 a secret lawsuit against someone if he really cared do 0:44:26.360 --> 0:44:28.160 it out in the public like that to me was 0:44:28.200 --> 0:44:31.239 the secret part to me was sneaky and awful. Ryan 0:44:31.320 --> 0:44:36.000 Holiday's book about that is so fascinating only because you learn, 0:44:36.239 --> 0:44:38.760 even with two people, it's impossible to keep a secret. 0:44:38.800 --> 0:44:42.880 It's it's astonishing. The Gawker litigation is just an excuse 0:44:43.200 --> 0:44:46.560 to describe the history of conspiracies. It's really anyway, it's interesting. 0:44:46.800 --> 0:44:48.480 You know, he's brilliant, but I don't agree with him 0:44:48.480 --> 0:44:51.239 almost everything. It's fun and funny, and you know I 0:44:51.280 --> 0:44:53.000 always I sort of poked at him quite a bit, 0:44:53.040 --> 0:44:56.520 and you know, he he's brilliant. He is brilliant, but really, 0:44:56.560 --> 0:44:58.720 some who else stands out to you in the valley 0:44:58.800 --> 0:45:00.600 visa The reason I think Peter Till's interesting is I'm 0:45:00.600 --> 0:45:02.440 always like hot, Like he wrote one book and I'm 0:45:02.440 --> 0:45:05.880 like it was very Yeah. I was like, oh, so 0:45:05.920 --> 0:45:07.680 many interesting things here, you know what I mean, I 0:45:07.719 --> 0:45:10.919 can't and then he he says a lot of things. 0:45:10.920 --> 0:45:12.960 I'm like, are you kidding me? You've got to be kidding. 0:45:12.960 --> 0:45:16.879 The relationship with Trump, Yeah, kind of surprising. That would 0:45:16.920 --> 0:45:20.400 you imagine from a guy who's railing about being oppressed 0:45:20.440 --> 0:45:22.799 as a gay man in Silicon Valley, he doesn't care 0:45:22.880 --> 0:45:25.799 talk about strange bedfellows. He doesn't care. It doesn't care. 0:45:25.840 --> 0:45:27.920 It doesn't care that those aren't his concerns, and I 0:45:27.960 --> 0:45:29.960 think they should be a concern. So that's kind of 0:45:30.000 --> 0:45:32.960 the old guard. What's who? Let's talk about the most 0:45:33.080 --> 0:45:36.480 recent round of companies. Really interesting entrepreneur. You've written about 0:45:36.520 --> 0:45:40.120 Travis Um. What are your thoughts about the whole frat 0:45:40.160 --> 0:45:42.520 scene at Uber. Well, I think he's a Dara is 0:45:42.560 --> 0:45:44.960 a very thoughtful and interesting person. I think he's got 0:45:44.960 --> 0:45:46.839 the person who took over Yeah, Dark Coast for sha. 0:45:47.320 --> 0:45:50.040 I think he's got a really tough economic question to 0:45:50.080 --> 0:45:52.319 solve there, because you don't think you could just do 0:45:52.360 --> 0:45:54.560 a whole bunch of rides at a loss, but make 0:45:54.600 --> 0:45:56.680 it up in volume. I know, I think they've got 0:45:56.719 --> 0:45:59.280 an economic problem and it's hard, and they've got competition. 0:45:59.320 --> 0:46:01.600 I believe in moats, you know, I think about moats. 0:46:01.760 --> 0:46:04.319 Amazon has built so many moats now they still have 0:46:04.400 --> 0:46:07.200 They're gonna have problems when when Amazon Web Services doesn't 0:46:07.239 --> 0:46:09.040 do as well. So they've got to really think about 0:46:09.040 --> 0:46:11.279 what their moats are. They've got a lot of them, um, 0:46:11.320 --> 0:46:12.640 and I think any business has to have a lot 0:46:12.680 --> 0:46:14.240 of moats, and I don't think there's as many moats 0:46:14.280 --> 0:46:17.440 around Ubers and the market saying that right now, right right, 0:46:17.680 --> 0:46:19.719 the market is si, well, they came out way too late, 0:46:19.719 --> 0:46:22.200 and they came out very pricey to begin with. The 0:46:22.239 --> 0:46:24.200 market is speaking if they would have, if they would 0:46:24.200 --> 0:46:27.640 have come out cheaper and come out earlier, maybe we 0:46:27.880 --> 0:46:29.840 be talking. I don't know. I think the economics are off. 0:46:29.880 --> 0:46:32.520 They just you're getting a ten, you're getting a fifteen. 0:46:32.840 --> 0:46:36.200 You're paying ten dollars for twenty dollar ride. That's what's happening, 0:46:36.239 --> 0:46:39.080 which is fantastic for consumers. The same thing with you know, 0:46:39.080 --> 0:46:40.799 I just wrote about we worked this week and your 0:46:40.800 --> 0:46:42.879 colleague calls it a PONZI. Yes I did. I wrote 0:46:42.880 --> 0:46:45.600 a long column about it and included Scott in that. Um, 0:46:45.640 --> 0:46:48.480 you know, I think it just the economics don't make sense, Like, wait, 0:46:48.480 --> 0:46:51.280 you're telling me if I get a floor in a building, 0:46:51.320 --> 0:46:53.839 that floor shouldn't be worth more than the whole building itself. Well, 0:46:53.840 --> 0:46:56.040 they're trying to pass themselves off as a tech company, 0:46:56.040 --> 0:46:57.960 and I think that's what offense got nine that. Do 0:46:58.000 --> 0:47:03.640 you remember Regious thirty years ago reduced plus beer equals multiple. Yeah, 0:47:04.080 --> 0:47:05.840 it just seems sort of one of them has just 0:47:05.880 --> 0:47:07.640 gone up again. Redis R I C I or something 0:47:07.640 --> 0:47:11.120 like that. You've got competitors. They that business that that 0:47:11.120 --> 0:47:14.360 that I p O perspectives was like one of the 0:47:14.440 --> 0:47:18.600 analysts called a lesson in obfuscation. I read that. I 0:47:19.120 --> 0:47:21.640 can't recall the last time in S one maybe it 0:47:21.680 --> 0:47:25.080 was Facebook, the last time an S one came out 0:47:25.160 --> 0:47:28.600 and it was so completely and totally line by line 0:47:28.640 --> 0:47:31.359 taken apart, like we works were. Well, it deserved it. 0:47:31.760 --> 0:47:34.120 I deserved it that. You know, look, it could be 0:47:34.200 --> 0:47:37.520 a very it's a really interesting disruptive brand. There's some 0:47:37.560 --> 0:47:41.959 great ideas there, but not enough for what for billion? 0:47:42.080 --> 0:47:44.880 There's seven billion, great This all comes back to what 0:47:44.920 --> 0:47:47.800 you said earlier about way too much capital and silicon 0:47:47.920 --> 0:47:53.080 value chasing way too few deals. Has that completely skewed valuations, which, 0:47:53.120 --> 0:47:55.840 by the way, Andreeson says we don't pay attention to valuation. 0:47:55.840 --> 0:47:57.399 Well that's what he says. Yes, you know, I think 0:47:57.440 --> 0:47:59.640 it's you know, once again in the public markets. Yes, 0:47:59.680 --> 0:48:02.120 I think it matters. I think you're right. Who cares 0:48:02.120 --> 0:48:04.279 the vcs throw you know, I always say there's not 0:48:04.360 --> 0:48:06.120 enough money to shove, not up for ad holes to 0:48:06.160 --> 0:48:08.480 shove all the money down. And there's that much money. 0:48:08.520 --> 0:48:10.400 So yeah, there's that much money. And so you know, 0:48:10.440 --> 0:48:13.360 you've got SoftBank running around now. And look when Andreason 0:48:13.440 --> 0:48:16.200 came and everyone's like, what's he doing? Overpaying now? And 0:48:16.360 --> 0:48:19.719 Reason looks like parsimonious compared to SoftBank. That's a good word. 0:48:19.840 --> 0:48:22.480 So let me push back again on some of the 0:48:22.520 --> 0:48:26.560 new tech companies. So there's grub Street, which has been 0:48:26.560 --> 0:48:30.799 doing some really dishonest things. If we've just wrote about 0:48:30.800 --> 0:48:34.120 that about about the tipping, not just the tipping, but 0:48:34.520 --> 0:48:39.160 taking phone numbers for um and registering websites that look 0:48:39.280 --> 0:48:44.600 like the restaurants. If you think Craigslist hurt media companies. 0:48:44.920 --> 0:48:47.799 Grub Street is really damaging a lot. Actually, it's a 0:48:48.080 --> 0:48:51.279 it's a bigger question you're talking there's a bigger question 0:48:51.320 --> 0:48:53.600 you're talking about, which is the ethics behind some of 0:48:53.600 --> 0:48:55.719 this stuff. Like it goes to the bigger version of data. 0:48:55.920 --> 0:48:59.440 How your data is being used, how you're being manipulated online. 0:48:59.440 --> 0:49:01.920 Now you don't get if your data is being used 0:49:02.000 --> 0:49:03.879 and they're monetizing it, why don't you get a piece 0:49:03.920 --> 0:49:06.600 of it? How does that happen that your data which 0:49:06.640 --> 0:49:10.520 you own is being monetized by someone else, Like that's 0:49:10.520 --> 0:49:12.440 like you have to think about around face, But where's 0:49:12.440 --> 0:49:15.560 the benefit? Are they paying you for that? Are they 0:49:15.600 --> 0:49:18.160 disclosing enough? Are you allowed to opt out? And so 0:49:18.200 --> 0:49:20.160 those are those bigger questions of how all of us 0:49:20.200 --> 0:49:24.240 have become like you know, if you remember the soiling 0:49:24.280 --> 0:49:28.719 greens people like you know, that's data is people, and 0:49:28.800 --> 0:49:30.360 so the question is what do we do about that? 0:49:30.400 --> 0:49:34.040 And Congress in general, on the bigger question, has has 0:49:34.080 --> 0:49:37.319 done no regulation of the Internet ever, unlike Europe, which 0:49:37.320 --> 0:49:41.520 has been very forward on starting to they're a decade 0:49:41.520 --> 0:49:43.560 ahead of they are there, indeed, but it's still there. 0:49:43.600 --> 0:49:47.319 Haven't been really comprehensive regulation of the Internet the way 0:49:47.360 --> 0:49:51.360 there's comprehensive whether whilst she breaks it, there's comprehensive legislation, 0:49:51.680 --> 0:49:56.000 whether chemical companies violate things and break the lot. There 0:49:56.000 --> 0:49:59.279 are laws, whether they're you know, emission standards, which are 0:49:59.360 --> 0:50:02.680 now the Fifornian the drum mininistrator California looks like it's winning. 0:50:03.239 --> 0:50:07.279 Um oh god, they're there, Sam. You stop and think 0:50:07.320 --> 0:50:11.319 about this. The automobile industry has invested so much money 0:50:11.360 --> 0:50:15.359 in everything from hybrids to electric to Cleanerody's going back, right, 0:50:15.400 --> 0:50:17.799 It's like, wait, we've wasted billions of dollars if we 0:50:18.000 --> 0:50:19.640 get to play, not going back. They don't want to 0:50:19.640 --> 0:50:21.240 go back. I want to go back. And the future 0:50:21.400 --> 0:50:24.680 is these cars. They they have a marketing and branding 0:50:24.719 --> 0:50:28.120 issues they want to appeal to. Really, you're on the 0:50:28.200 --> 0:50:31.239 downside of history here like Stop like clean Cole Clean. 0:50:31.880 --> 0:50:34.200 So what's what's interesting is that like Tony. So the 0:50:34.280 --> 0:50:36.400 question is where are we gonna regulate like in California 0:50:36.480 --> 0:50:39.239 right now, there's a privacy bill coming online that's going 0:50:39.280 --> 0:50:41.880 to be the de facto for the country. It is, 0:50:42.200 --> 0:50:44.640 and there's twelve others across the country. So then tech 0:50:44.680 --> 0:50:46.799 companies are going to be like, which one do we like, 0:50:46.800 --> 0:50:48.200 They're gonna have to follow all of them. I think 0:50:48.200 --> 0:50:51.080 everybody like longs for an idea of a privacy bill 0:50:51.120 --> 0:50:54.759 that has some teeth that protects consumers, even these companies, 0:50:54.800 --> 0:50:57.200 because it's like they don't. I don't. I think confusion 0:50:57.280 --> 0:51:00.960 really creates problems in markets, right and therefore there should 0:51:01.000 --> 0:51:05.040 be a really strong national privacy bill that one would thing, 0:51:05.120 --> 0:51:07.239 but they can't agree on lunch in Congress right now. 0:51:07.480 --> 0:51:10.840 You'd imagine there should be something around anti discrimination there. 0:51:11.040 --> 0:51:14.560 You imagine there should be something around Um, there's all 0:51:14.600 --> 0:51:16.520 kinds of bills. I wrote about this Internet Bill of 0:51:16.600 --> 0:51:18.120 Rights that they're thinking about, and there's a ten or 0:51:18.120 --> 0:51:21.120 twelve things, and it's not one law. It's two dozens 0:51:21.120 --> 0:51:23.600 of laws around the Internet to regulate. And there's only 0:51:23.640 --> 0:51:26.640 one law right now, and it benefits innet, which is 0:51:26.680 --> 0:51:29.680 section thirty, which people are now revisiting. Oh, that was 0:51:29.719 --> 0:51:34.279 your column revisiting an obscure. It's not viscure. It's a 0:51:34.320 --> 0:51:37.960 critical bill well, but originally it was not well known publicly, 0:51:38.000 --> 0:51:41.520 and now it's coming. It's been used by it's as 0:51:41.520 --> 0:51:43.680 a shield. And so what's interesting I have I have 0:51:43.680 --> 0:51:46.560 a podcast coming out today. I had three people debate 0:51:46.560 --> 0:51:48.120 it today because I was like, let's talk about this 0:51:48.200 --> 0:51:50.560 and educate people about it. But you know, that's that 0:51:50.640 --> 0:51:53.800 bill is helpful to the internet industry and the digital industry. 0:51:54.000 --> 0:51:57.000 So the question is you can have that and we 0:51:57.040 --> 0:51:59.280 could you know, getting rid of it's a huge mistake, 0:51:59.320 --> 0:52:04.480 but figuring out where the responsibility is uh is important 0:52:04.480 --> 0:52:06.600 and I think so therefore put stuff around it and 0:52:06.880 --> 0:52:10.480 have some some Everyone is like regulation is terrible. I'm like, no, 0:52:10.640 --> 0:52:13.840 regulation is worse in many ways because people don't know 0:52:13.880 --> 0:52:15.680 the rules of the road. And you know, especially with 0:52:15.719 --> 0:52:19.200 these new technologies are coming cars, some of the healthcare stuff, 0:52:19.200 --> 0:52:22.600 the censor stuff, the AI stuff, we need good law 0:52:22.840 --> 0:52:27.000 to to really protect consumers. And many people think, you know, 0:52:27.040 --> 0:52:29.799 even just the ability to sue is a good thing. 0:52:29.960 --> 0:52:32.080 Like you know, there are certain laws in place around 0:52:32.200 --> 0:52:35.440 pornography and everything else, but there this is an industry 0:52:35.440 --> 0:52:37.560 that needs to be regulated just the way Wall Street 0:52:37.680 --> 0:52:42.799 is just the way, and regulated they'll be They'll be overreached. 0:52:42.800 --> 0:52:46.160 There'll be overreached, no question. But the question is if 0:52:46.160 --> 0:52:48.600 there's none, maybe we need a little Like so you're 0:52:48.640 --> 0:52:53.200 implying about the right to sue. You know, every all 0:52:53.239 --> 0:52:56.200 the boilerplate that you shrink, wrap agreements that you sign, 0:52:56.800 --> 0:53:01.879 have arbitration agreements. In the musicians decency second to thirty 0:53:01.920 --> 0:53:04.840 does take care of pretty much. They it's been shipped 0:53:04.840 --> 0:53:07.960 away around uh, sex trafficking in some other areas, but 0:53:08.000 --> 0:53:09.919 it's not really been shipped away very much at all. 0:53:10.040 --> 0:53:11.880 And then there's a question of you know, things like 0:53:11.880 --> 0:53:14.200 Elizabeth Warren was proposing, which is breaking up some of 0:53:14.239 --> 0:53:19.440 these companies, And that's Elizabeth Warren following again your partner 0:53:19.520 --> 0:53:22.919 who's been talking talked about that. So there's breakup, there's 0:53:22.960 --> 0:53:25.760 fees that there's there's fines, there's all kinds of different 0:53:25.760 --> 0:53:29.040 ways to figure out how to reign in the Internet industry. 0:53:29.080 --> 0:53:31.960 And it depends on their violations, it depends on their cooperation. 0:53:32.320 --> 0:53:35.319 Let's do a quick speed round about some of your 0:53:35.360 --> 0:53:39.520 favorite people, um and since I mentioned Blade Runner, tell 0:53:39.560 --> 0:53:43.080 me the first things that enter your minds when I 0:53:43.120 --> 0:53:51.920 mentioned these people's name. Elon musk Um, visionary, visionary, Um, unusual, 0:53:52.640 --> 0:53:57.479 the whole crazy Joe Rogan thing was blown a little 0:53:57.520 --> 0:53:59.719 out of No, he shouldn't have done that. He's a 0:53:59.760 --> 0:54:02.000 seat you have a public company. A little more circumspect 0:54:02.000 --> 0:54:08.160 would have been better, uh, Jack Dorsey, Oh, also thoughtful, 0:54:09.360 --> 0:54:14.040 but opaque and disengaged in a way I find troubling. 0:54:14.480 --> 0:54:18.960 Disengaged meaning not responsive to the current impact of his work. 0:54:19.120 --> 0:54:20.960 What he's doing, what what are is doing right now? 0:54:21.000 --> 0:54:23.960 To the national discourse is damaging and he has to 0:54:23.960 --> 0:54:26.719 think more. He talks about healthy conversations, and I really 0:54:26.760 --> 0:54:30.160 wish he would stop talking and do something. Okay, speaking 0:54:30.200 --> 0:54:36.600 of damaging the national discourse, Mark Zuckerbrook ernest really lovely, 0:54:36.800 --> 0:54:41.200 as you know, the least arrogant considering who he is, 0:54:41.840 --> 0:54:47.200 really quite thoughtful, thoughtful person, absolutely incapable of dealing with 0:54:47.239 --> 0:54:50.960 the task he has ahead of him, incapable that that's 0:54:50.960 --> 0:54:53.600 pretty pretty impressive. Um, what about to use a lot 0:54:53.600 --> 0:54:59.960 of help? What about the Google guys disengaged? Really disengaged? 0:55:00.680 --> 0:55:02.880 Is that a function of the just start not running 0:55:02.920 --> 0:55:07.600 the company? So who is all right? And and whoever 0:55:07.680 --> 0:55:12.840 is there? What about the entire split between Google and 0:55:12.880 --> 0:55:16.879 Alphabet or Google projects. It's still the same kind. It's 0:55:16.880 --> 0:55:20.280 search and everything else is an adult there jumble of blocks. 0:55:20.320 --> 0:55:22.719 That's what they've always been like Google years ago. There's 0:55:22.719 --> 0:55:25.759 a fortune magazine covered chaos at Google. It's the same thing. 0:55:26.840 --> 0:55:29.799 It's a chaotically organized company, and there's there's a lot 0:55:29.840 --> 0:55:32.440 of obviously practices. It's a big, giant company, makes a 0:55:32.440 --> 0:55:34.480 ton of money. It's very successful in the way it does. 0:55:34.560 --> 0:55:36.720 But so from you know, the DNA of any company 0:55:36.760 --> 0:55:40.680 is the DNA of its beginnings, and that doesn't change. Chaotic, 0:55:40.760 --> 0:55:43.359 but that's doesn't it's not a messory bad thing. Even 0:55:43.400 --> 0:55:47.520 at Microsoft, has that DNA changed. Yes, I have a 0:55:47.600 --> 0:55:50.640 huge respect for such an Adela amazing. I think he's 0:55:50.640 --> 0:55:55.879 a thoughtful uh measured you know, not as not as 0:55:56.000 --> 0:55:59.440 exciting screaming and stuff like that, but just a really 0:56:00.200 --> 0:56:03.440 he's done a great job in defining talk about defining 0:56:03.440 --> 0:56:05.799 your products. He knows who he is, he knows what 0:56:05.840 --> 0:56:09.839 Microsoft is interesting read Hastings. Lovely smart. Oh, I just 0:56:09.920 --> 0:56:14.560 enjoy talking to him. Really, just a great thinker. He's 0:56:14.600 --> 0:56:17.560 just we don't always agree on things, but boy, what 0:56:17.680 --> 0:56:22.080 a what a smart man. I like he pulled himself 0:56:22.120 --> 0:56:25.839 off the board of Facebook. That was interesting. Oh really, 0:56:25.840 --> 0:56:27.480 I think it was tired of arguing with him. I'm 0:56:27.480 --> 0:56:33.439 guessing right, And huh, Benny Off you mentioned Earl hysterical, fun, 0:56:34.560 --> 0:56:36.360 great guy for a drink. You want to go up 0:56:36.360 --> 0:56:40.480 for a drink with that guy? Always interesting conversation can 0:56:40.560 --> 0:56:43.200 be blowhardy, but I like it. I like the whole jam. 0:56:43.320 --> 0:56:45.880 I like it started act. I like his whole commitment 0:56:45.920 --> 0:56:49.279 to the city. I think it's genuine. I like he's 0:56:49.400 --> 0:56:51.200 that he's loud about it. Everyone's like, oh, he's just 0:56:51.239 --> 0:56:52.960 loud about I'm like, yeah, but he does things like 0:56:52.960 --> 0:56:56.319 I don't care, let him brag, let him. I like him. 0:56:56.360 --> 0:56:59.920 He's just a really fascinating character. I really enjoy talking it. 0:57:00.040 --> 0:57:03.800 I always I never not interested in talking to him. 0:57:03.880 --> 0:57:09.640 Andrewson painting really, but I'm surprised in a good way, 0:57:09.960 --> 0:57:12.080 in a bad way to some of his new tweets. 0:57:12.080 --> 0:57:15.040 He's tweeting some crazy definitely, but he took a long 0:57:15.160 --> 0:57:18.600 tweet vacation, a couple of whatever. He's like Mark whatever, 0:57:19.440 --> 0:57:23.120 he's I argue with him a lot, but I enjoy it. 0:57:23.280 --> 0:57:25.240 I hate don't know. I hope he's not listening. Oh 0:57:25.240 --> 0:57:28.360 he's listening. Okay, Well, what are the vcs are worth 0:57:28.560 --> 0:57:31.760 bringing up? John Door, Bill Gurley who John's a very 0:57:31.800 --> 0:57:35.000 thoughtful person. He's not put a book recently, he's put 0:57:35.000 --> 0:57:37.200 on a book, we did a podcast. He's always been 0:57:37.520 --> 0:57:43.520 I think, Um, he's John. You know, he's a seems ethical. 0:57:43.680 --> 0:57:46.240 What what other VCS did I not get to that? 0:57:46.240 --> 0:57:52.400 That tramp? Do not know him. He's great, He's just 0:57:52.440 --> 0:57:54.640 a character and sok on Valley. Um, you know, I 0:57:54.680 --> 0:57:57.439 think you know, there's lots of VCS you don't know about, 0:57:57.600 --> 0:58:01.200 like my Michael Deering. There's all sorts of interesting Aileene 0:58:02.200 --> 0:58:05.160 Mary Meeker, there's all sorts of really well you all 0:58:05.160 --> 0:58:07.200 know who Mary Meeker. Yeah, she's great, she's great. I 0:58:07.200 --> 0:58:09.600 met her when she was an analyst at Morgan Stan. 0:58:10.000 --> 0:58:11.880 I used to stay up nights talking about the Internet 0:58:12.040 --> 0:58:14.760 with her in like the nineties, early nine She got it. 0:58:15.000 --> 0:58:17.400 She got it in fact too enthusiastic, but she was 0:58:17.520 --> 0:58:20.720 right directionally she was correct. I've argued that the difference 0:58:20.760 --> 0:58:23.360 between her and people got into trouble. Like Henry Blodge 0:58:23.560 --> 0:58:27.280 is she was a true believer who and being wrong 0:58:27.440 --> 0:58:30.480 is not prosecutable. She was early, She was early, but 0:58:30.520 --> 0:58:32.400 she was right. She was right in the long term. 0:58:32.440 --> 0:58:36.040 She was probably wrong several times. The term evaluation his 0:58:36.160 --> 0:58:39.080 reel cynical. I like Henry, I think he got a 0:58:39.240 --> 0:58:42.080 He's also a beautiful writer. Um, Who have I missed 0:58:42.080 --> 0:58:45.880 Steve Jobs? Oh fascinating. I really enjoyed interviewing him. What 0:58:45.960 --> 0:58:50.360 an interesting and complex person, Um, I always say. And 0:58:50.360 --> 0:58:52.480 I've gotten to his wife quite a bit. His widow, 0:58:52.800 --> 0:58:56.960 Lauren Lorraine, who's really really interesting to talk to. She's 0:58:57.040 --> 0:58:59.640 very active in philanthropy, not just philanthropy, all kinds of 0:58:59.800 --> 0:59:01.640 all kinds of interesting and I find her to be 0:59:01.760 --> 0:59:05.680 very interesting in her investment stuff. She's very thoughtful. Another 0:59:05.760 --> 0:59:08.240 very thoughtful person. Um has a lot of points of 0:59:08.320 --> 0:59:09.880 view which I like. I like one of the point 0:59:09.880 --> 0:59:11.720 of you assume Job was you know he was just 0:59:12.360 --> 0:59:14.760 it would have complicated and interesting person. I know everyone 0:59:14.840 --> 0:59:17.000 sort of like tried to cartoonize people. He was mean 0:59:17.080 --> 0:59:23.920 to people. I'm like, yeah, but lots of people are me. No, No, 0:59:24.000 --> 0:59:26.080 I don't think he was. You know, I have his 0:59:26.240 --> 0:59:28.920 ratio of productivity was so high, and you know, all 0:59:28.920 --> 0:59:31.920 those speeches around death were so what an interesting person 0:59:31.960 --> 0:59:35.200 who challenged himself from a philosophical point of view, I 0:59:35.200 --> 0:59:37.400 don't think he had a lot of people always say 0:59:37.400 --> 0:59:39.680 he was heartless. This is what I say all the time. 0:59:39.880 --> 0:59:41.880 He had too much heart he had too much heart. 0:59:41.920 --> 0:59:44.080 It was too there were so many things going on 0:59:44.160 --> 0:59:46.720 with him. I always we did eight Walt and I 0:59:46.720 --> 0:59:49.480 did eight eight interviews or more with him. Very nobody 0:59:49.600 --> 0:59:51.880 had the body of interviews that we did with him, 0:59:51.960 --> 0:59:56.200 and that was every single one of them were fascinating conversations, 0:59:56.360 --> 0:59:57.800 and of course he's going to be seen as one 0:59:57.840 --> 0:59:59.520 of the most important. And we did one with Gates 0:59:59.520 --> 1:00:02.400 and Jobs together. I recall that that was really very interesting. 1:00:02.400 --> 1:00:04.800 That's going to go down in history that you know, 1:00:04.920 --> 1:00:10.600 I'll be forgotten, But not that interview. Larry Ellison hysterical, hysterical, 1:00:10.880 --> 1:00:13.480 really just I just loved talking to him. I mean, 1:00:13.480 --> 1:00:16.800 you know, he's you know, you know, and he's sort 1:00:16.800 --> 1:00:21.000 of the old days of like vaguely sexist, sometimes very 1:00:21.040 --> 1:00:24.240 sexists all Coon Valley, like the old like sells Off 1:00:24.320 --> 1:00:27.040 where everybody like that kind of stuff. I gotta tell you, 1:00:27.120 --> 1:00:29.400 he's a really you know, he's raised two really interesting 1:00:29.480 --> 1:00:31.800 children too, Like what are the kids doing? The kids 1:00:31.800 --> 1:00:35.080 are moviemakers. They make Star Trek and his daughter makes 1:00:35.120 --> 1:00:39.000 some amazing movies. Is like a really interesting filmmaker. And 1:00:39.040 --> 1:00:42.160 his son makes more like Terminator and and Star Trek. 1:00:42.200 --> 1:00:44.680 The recent Star Treks, which are very good movies that 1:00:44.840 --> 1:00:47.280 star trek Ones particularly, And so I don't know. I 1:00:47.320 --> 1:00:51.440 just he's a he just he's one of the few 1:00:51.600 --> 1:00:55.560 titans left kind of thing. Uh. Scott McNeely was someone 1:00:56.040 --> 1:00:58.280 I haven't heard from. I just did a podcast with him. 1:00:58.720 --> 1:01:00.560 Not a podcast, I did a column in York Times 1:01:00.600 --> 1:01:04.000 went around privacy, privacy, get used to it, that kind 1:01:04.000 --> 1:01:07.640 of thing. Um, he's which is the inverse of what 1:01:07.720 --> 1:01:10.040 people used to say. No, he was the first one 1:01:10.080 --> 1:01:12.360 to really identity that you have no privacy, get used 1:01:12.360 --> 1:01:14.959 to it. Um. That was a really prescient thing he said. 1:01:15.000 --> 1:01:16.360 I'm not sure I agree with him on a lot 1:01:16.400 --> 1:01:19.280 of political stuff. He's quite he has a he has 1:01:19.280 --> 1:01:21.600 a problem with Hillary Clinton, is he needs to let 1:01:21.600 --> 1:01:24.480 go of still even to this day he's talking to him. 1:01:24.480 --> 1:01:26.360 I'm like, you know, she's a private citizen, is never 1:01:26.360 --> 1:01:28.360 going to be president. You really can move along, Like 1:01:28.760 --> 1:01:31.640 I feel like you've handled Hillary Clinton, so like, let's 1:01:32.040 --> 1:01:35.680 some people who don't like or really can whatever. It's 1:01:35.720 --> 1:01:37.320 just funny. I was sort of like, can we stop 1:01:37.360 --> 1:01:40.080 talking about Hillary Clinton and start discussing the current state 1:01:40.080 --> 1:01:43.360 of affairs? What? What about CEOs? I haven't mentioned what 1:01:43.440 --> 1:01:46.720 company interesting ones like Brian Chowsky from Airbnb. I think 1:01:46.760 --> 1:01:48.640 he's very thoughtful and interesting. I'll be in such an 1:01:48.680 --> 1:01:50.840 interesting company when that goes public. I think he thinks 1:01:50.960 --> 1:01:53.440 very carefully about stuff, and he understands what I like 1:01:53.480 --> 1:01:56.000 about him as he understands the impact. He may not 1:01:56.160 --> 1:01:57.680 always do the right thing, and they've had a lot 1:01:57.680 --> 1:01:59.280 of mess ups and everything else. They had some early 1:01:59.280 --> 1:02:01.120 mess ups that I think taught them a lot. But 1:02:01.200 --> 1:02:05.360 I think he's extraordinarily thoughtful about his impact and you 1:02:06.160 --> 1:02:08.520 very and I don't think it's just yammering. I think 1:02:08.560 --> 1:02:13.120 he actually knows that his company has negative and positive impacts. 1:02:13.160 --> 1:02:16.920 So he's able to discuss the negative impacts without being defensive. 1:02:16.960 --> 1:02:19.400 And it's a pleasure to talk to him. Tim Cook, 1:02:19.560 --> 1:02:21.520 I love the talk. I didn't get to think Tim 1:02:21.560 --> 1:02:24.280 Cooks are really he's an adult. I've done some very 1:02:24.280 --> 1:02:27.320 good interviews with him. People assumed that when Jobs left 1:02:27.360 --> 1:02:29.000 that would be it for Apple, But here we are, 1:02:29.240 --> 1:02:32.600 what is it six years later? You know they've still 1:02:32.640 --> 1:02:34.200 got the issue. If they've got to have what's the 1:02:34.240 --> 1:02:36.320 next hit? They're like the Rolling Stones, like when's your 1:02:36.320 --> 1:02:38.280 next hit? Like there at some point they can't keep 1:02:38.280 --> 1:02:40.480 making Like it's just like they have such a record, 1:02:40.520 --> 1:02:43.640 you're almost like a good job, you know. I feel 1:02:43.680 --> 1:02:45.439 like that I'm kind of old, but I'm keep making hits, 1:02:45.440 --> 1:02:47.400 so and so they can keep making it. It's a 1:02:47.440 --> 1:02:50.480 really they've done so much amazing stuff that this year 1:02:50.600 --> 1:02:53.680 there's a lot of Yeah, there's stuff around that show 1:02:53.760 --> 1:02:58.240 looks pretty good. Um, we'll see the problem with that show. 1:02:58.480 --> 1:03:02.800 And you brought this up with competing with content between 1:03:02.840 --> 1:03:06.760 Netflix and Amazon and Hulu and everybody else. It's really 1:03:06.840 --> 1:03:10.040 hard to lu I thought they should have brought Netflix 1:03:10.080 --> 1:03:13.760 five years ago when I wrote that, and people gave 1:03:13.800 --> 1:03:16.120 me grief about it. I think it was fifty billion 1:03:16.160 --> 1:03:19.240 dollars and people give me grief. It was like two 1:03:19.760 --> 1:03:21.920 that was a missed opportunity. They could still do it 1:03:22.320 --> 1:03:24.400 so much. Well, it's a rounding era to them. But 1:03:24.680 --> 1:03:26.560 you know there, I liked him cook, I really enjoy 1:03:26.600 --> 1:03:28.080 I think he's been one of the adults in the 1:03:28.160 --> 1:03:30.720 room and has been very toughful. A lot of people 1:03:30.720 --> 1:03:32.800 think he's taking advantage of, like sort of being a 1:03:32.840 --> 1:03:35.120 school marm, but I don't care. I like it versus 1:03:35.160 --> 1:03:38.600 Facebook to some degree. You mean in terms of hey 1:03:39.720 --> 1:03:42.200 to say, you know, I asked him. I didn't think 1:03:42.240 --> 1:03:44.160 he was going to answer, but he did. I asked 1:03:44.240 --> 1:03:46.360 him in this interview I did in Chicago last year. 1:03:46.600 --> 1:03:49.600 Um it was a live interview to school, and I said, 1:03:49.720 --> 1:03:52.160 what would you do if you were Mark Zuckerberg? And 1:03:52.200 --> 1:03:53.800 he said, I wouldn't be in the situation. In the 1:03:53.800 --> 1:03:58.080 first I was like, that's a genus answer, right, that's 1:03:58.280 --> 1:04:01.480 he's not like, that's like he never does that. They 1:04:01.560 --> 1:04:04.000 have a bone to pick with Facebook, Well, yeah, they 1:04:04.040 --> 1:04:06.680 it's also calculated bone because their business is not is 1:04:06.720 --> 1:04:10.200 not advertising. It's an excellent business opportunity to smack them 1:04:10.200 --> 1:04:11.840 and and I think and they believe it. And by 1:04:11.880 --> 1:04:14.080 the way, Steve Jobs was talking about this with us 1:04:14.240 --> 1:04:18.840 ten years years about Facebook, about privacy about very strangely, 1:04:18.840 --> 1:04:21.280 and you can talk about that when it's not your business, right, 1:04:21.920 --> 1:04:23.640 So I guess you could go on about how porn 1:04:23.720 --> 1:04:26.840 talks like and it's it's insulting to women and that 1:04:26.920 --> 1:04:29.720 because it's not my business. So you know, it's it's 1:04:29.720 --> 1:04:31.680 actually good for me if they're competing with me. So 1:04:31.960 --> 1:04:33.680 I think a lot of people feel like Facebook and 1:04:33.720 --> 1:04:36.520 he's taking advantage of the situation. But I'm okay, So 1:04:36.600 --> 1:04:40.960 what meanwhile, did you happen to catch the sixty minutes 1:04:41.320 --> 1:04:46.240 about that Israeli company that basically has licensed the technology. 1:04:46.280 --> 1:04:49.080 I think it's called Pegasus that hack can hack any 1:04:49.080 --> 1:04:52.680 phone anywhere in the world. I assume that's happening already. 1:04:52.720 --> 1:04:55.400 But I mean there is literally an Israeli company who 1:04:55.480 --> 1:04:58.440 was given grief because they licensed it to Saudi Saudi 1:04:58.840 --> 1:05:01.760 Arabia and fearically they use this technology now. But that's 1:05:01.760 --> 1:05:03.680 going to catch up that this It's going to be 1:05:03.720 --> 1:05:06.120 a constant arms race for all this stuff. There's gonna 1:05:06.160 --> 1:05:08.560 be like, look, I assume everything is hacked. That's just 1:05:08.600 --> 1:05:11.360 not the study. And so so LA is right. There 1:05:11.400 --> 1:05:13.320 is no privacy. There is no there hasn't. But you 1:05:13.360 --> 1:05:16.400 can't control your privacy. That's different. You don't own you 1:05:16.440 --> 1:05:18.960 know it's out there, but you can there's ways to control. 1:05:19.000 --> 1:05:21.400 And they haven't done any job whatsoever and helping you do. 1:05:21.480 --> 1:05:23.200 So one thing you even talked about is Trump and 1:05:23.240 --> 1:05:25.520 is tweeting. All the tweeting like that's just such an 1:05:25.520 --> 1:05:30.240 important thing. It's governing by Twitter. So it's funny because 1:05:30.400 --> 1:05:34.680 every time a conversation comes up about g the president 1:05:34.800 --> 1:05:37.080 and and this is just the most recent one. The 1:05:37.120 --> 1:05:41.560 President is haranguing the Federal Reserve chair. Uh, that's never 1:05:41.640 --> 1:05:44.320 happened before. And what the answer to these tend to 1:05:44.360 --> 1:05:47.680 be is, well, it has happened before, just it's always 1:05:47.720 --> 1:05:50.400 been private. And to do it publicly, to do a 1:05:50.560 --> 1:05:54.480 vocation and weaponization that it is provided by these tools, 1:05:54.520 --> 1:05:57.640 these online tools, is really unprecedented. Everyone's like people have 1:05:57.680 --> 1:06:00.600 done from like no, not like this, and and you know, 1:06:00.720 --> 1:06:02.760 just the two examples. I wrote a calm about this 1:06:03.160 --> 1:06:06.000 the when they when they the census thing was happening, right, 1:06:06.000 --> 1:06:09.600 which we'vegotten about. Remember that, Well, it's the the outrages 1:06:09.680 --> 1:06:11.600 come so fast and furious, you can't keep up. So 1:06:11.720 --> 1:06:14.880 he by design they had made a decision to back 1:06:14.920 --> 1:06:17.800 away from adding that question, and suddenly he tweets that, 1:06:17.840 --> 1:06:20.560 oh yeah, we're putting an end. And then the lawyer 1:06:20.920 --> 1:06:23.520 for the Justice Department is like, I don't know what 1:06:23.640 --> 1:06:26.240 he meant in the tweet. We need to call him, 1:06:26.280 --> 1:06:28.720 like what like governing by tweet? And then he did 1:06:28.720 --> 1:06:31.120 it this week with Greenland. Well, wait before we go 1:06:31.160 --> 1:06:35.160 to Greenland, stay with the census question. Governing by twitter. 1:06:35.280 --> 1:06:39.600 Here's the fascinating thing. The last landed gentry in the 1:06:39.680 --> 1:06:43.560 United States are federal judges. What they say goes in 1:06:43.640 --> 1:06:47.040 their court, and you can be in jail as a 1:06:47.120 --> 1:06:51.880 lawyer who's been who's been fined for um, disrespecting the court, 1:06:52.080 --> 1:06:54.560 and eventually the appeal will go your way, and after 1:06:54.600 --> 1:06:57.560 six months of jail you come out. That judge said 1:06:57.600 --> 1:07:01.360 to that lawyer, your answer is this honest and if 1:07:01.440 --> 1:07:03.960 you don't get me the answer I want, there's going 1:07:04.000 --> 1:07:06.000 to be hell to pay. I think he threatened them 1:07:06.000 --> 1:07:08.800 with contempt of court and sending them to jail until 1:07:08.800 --> 1:07:12.040 it's resolved, and he held them accountable. It was fascinating. 1:07:12.240 --> 1:07:15.560 He's like, you're responsible for this, it's your client to 1:07:15.720 --> 1:07:18.280 the lawyers because literally they're saying there like it's Twitter. 1:07:18.400 --> 1:07:20.640 What But literally he's governing by Twitter, Like what do 1:07:20.680 --> 1:07:22.480 you do? Like I can see the person is sitting there, 1:07:22.520 --> 1:07:24.120 like what do we do? Now? Who do we call? 1:07:24.400 --> 1:07:26.320 He just tweeted it, like what does that mean that 1:07:26.400 --> 1:07:28.920 the interpreting it. You're an officer of the court and 1:07:28.960 --> 1:07:31.120 you have an obligation. But I'm talking about on a 1:07:31.120 --> 1:07:33.240 personal level. I mean, like just like Maddest when he 1:07:33.280 --> 1:07:36.440 was tweeting about that transgender So he just ignored him 1:07:36.720 --> 1:07:39.840 right and pulled someone into the office said no, not 1:07:39.880 --> 1:07:42.560 doing But by the way, he twitter resident and you're 1:07:42.560 --> 1:07:45.360 ignoring the residence of the whole thing is saying yes, 1:07:45.400 --> 1:07:48.360 but it's also in you can't do that like that. 1:07:48.360 --> 1:07:51.200 That's called we have a system. So it's really fascinating, Well, 1:07:51.200 --> 1:07:52.640 we have a system, and if you want me to 1:07:52.640 --> 1:07:55.800 do something, give me an official executive order, not a tweet. 1:07:56.200 --> 1:07:59.360 We don't want people anticipating with the president. Nobody's anticipated 1:07:59.400 --> 1:08:00.840 that you could do that, because he did it again 1:08:00.840 --> 1:08:03.760 with Greenland. I'm not going to Greenland. The ambassador to 1:08:03.760 --> 1:08:06.600 Greenland was like, welcome, Mr President, and then he tweets 1:08:06.600 --> 1:08:09.840 that like just at the same time, and then they're 1:08:09.880 --> 1:08:12.880 like they're all scrambling, like somebody had an interesting theory 1:08:13.000 --> 1:08:16.600 that pre scheduled at the end of the month. Is 1:08:16.640 --> 1:08:19.760 Obama going to Greenlands? And he didn't want to be 1:08:19.920 --> 1:08:25.360 compared with the adoring think you know, I think. But 1:08:25.400 --> 1:08:28.080 it's really interesting because it's a perfect medium for this guy. 1:08:28.160 --> 1:08:32.480 He's like the troll in chief. He's twitchy, he's raging, 1:08:32.800 --> 1:08:35.720 he's it's everything about the way Twitter is designed, and 1:08:35.760 --> 1:08:39.080 the way they've architect it is perfect for Donald Trump, 1:08:39.240 --> 1:08:41.160 and he's that's why he's so good on it. Now, 1:08:41.200 --> 1:08:43.840 then you see someone like AOC who's also good on it, 1:08:43.880 --> 1:08:46.479 but he's good in a different way. Future president, he's 1:08:46.520 --> 1:08:51.679 exactly he broadcast or possibly he broadcasts, and she speaks 1:08:51.720 --> 1:08:54.360 the language. So I find her fascinating in that way. 1:08:54.400 --> 1:08:55.920 And I don't know. I think Nancy Policy is right, 1:08:55.920 --> 1:08:57.880 you just gotta get the votes. I think she's got to. 1:08:58.360 --> 1:09:00.800 She's a natural. She's of that general minds. If she 1:09:00.840 --> 1:09:05.240 combines the ability to communicate beautifully on social media with 1:09:05.479 --> 1:09:08.800 an ability to get votes and really actually do the 1:09:08.840 --> 1:09:12.240 mechanations of democracy which you need the votes, like that's 1:09:12.240 --> 1:09:14.920 really it, that will be very powerful. I think Trump 1:09:15.080 --> 1:09:17.840 just he just creates havoc, and that's that's also a 1:09:17.880 --> 1:09:23.320 talent to create havoc. He uses, but it's he has unique. 1:09:23.360 --> 1:09:26.080 Just the way John F. Kennedy used the television, He's 1:09:26.160 --> 1:09:30.400 using Twitter and social media, no doubt about it. We 1:09:30.479 --> 1:09:33.320 have been speaking with Kara Swisher. She is the co 1:09:33.520 --> 1:09:38.200 founder of Recode and the author of numerous books on technology. 1:09:38.240 --> 1:09:40.640 If you enjoy this conversation, be sure and check out 1:09:40.680 --> 1:09:43.559 our podcast extras, where we keep the tape rolling and 1:09:43.600 --> 1:09:47.680 continue discussing all things tech related. You can find that 1:09:47.760 --> 1:09:52.080 at iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcast, Overcast, Stitcher, wherever your find 1:09:52.080 --> 1:09:55.280 our podcasts are sold. We love your comments, feedback and 1:09:55.360 --> 1:09:59.520 suggestions right to us at m IB podcast at Bloomberg 1:09:59.560 --> 1:10:03.800 dot net. Check out my weekly column at Bloomberg dot com. 1:10:03.920 --> 1:10:06.960 Follow me on Twitter at rid Holts. Sign up from 1:10:07.000 --> 1:10:10.599 my daily reads at rid Halts dot com. I'm Barry 1:10:10.640 --> 1:10:14.639 rid Halts. You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. 1:10:16.560 --> 1:10:18.760 Welcome to the podcast. By the way, Kara, thank you 1:10:18.800 --> 1:10:21.120 so much for doing this. You were tough to track down. 1:10:21.240 --> 1:10:25.640 I had to pull in some favors. Galloway who um 1:10:25.720 --> 1:10:29.840 has been on my podcast. I've done to fifty something now, 1:10:29.960 --> 1:10:34.400 more than any five years two really and that doesn't 1:10:34.400 --> 1:10:37.439 count Pivot. That's a lot, but minor roll three four hours, 1:10:37.479 --> 1:10:40.280 so it's a little so. By the way, just so 1:10:40.360 --> 1:10:43.599 you know, I've been a listener to Pivot from the beginning. 1:10:44.080 --> 1:10:47.280 When I'm I'm up early early East Coast time working 1:10:47.360 --> 1:10:51.760 on my my various and sundry things, my my frippery, 1:10:51.920 --> 1:10:54.880 UM and I like to have something playing in the 1:10:54.920 --> 1:10:59.679 background and you guys, you guys are well. We really 1:10:59.680 --> 1:11:04.559 didn't get into the podcast much, but I love the 1:11:04.640 --> 1:11:10.080 combination of you as who you are and Scott as 1:11:10.120 --> 1:11:15.040 an alpha male East Coast weirdest chemistry people. It's it's 1:11:15.120 --> 1:11:18.040 fantastic anywhere I go there, Like where Scott, I'm like, no, no, 1:11:18.080 --> 1:11:20.000 we're not married, Mary, we don't hang out, but we 1:11:20.000 --> 1:11:21.559 sound like a married couple. It's sort of like I 1:11:21.560 --> 1:11:23.280 was trying to think of, like is it Kathie Lee 1:11:23.360 --> 1:11:27.200 and Regis is remember moonlighting? You know what I mean. 1:11:27.560 --> 1:11:29.320 It's that kind of thing that's going on there. It's 1:11:29.320 --> 1:11:33.200 a really interesting, um it's a really interesting chemistry we have. 1:11:33.280 --> 1:11:35.360 And I think it's because I'm like, like, he's being 1:11:35.400 --> 1:11:40.880 alpha male on purpose, right, he's allowing the testosterone poison, 1:11:41.520 --> 1:11:44.200 but he's also like sort of sort of like he's 1:11:44.200 --> 1:11:46.639 a woke alpha yeah exactly, kind of like, oh God, 1:11:46.640 --> 1:11:48.559 I said something stupid and I'm like, you're an idiot. 1:11:48.560 --> 1:11:51.000 Like he says stuff to you that I just like, 1:11:51.160 --> 1:11:54.200 crack up, and he's trying to provoke you. I was like, 1:11:54.240 --> 1:11:56.679 your one statement away from the end of your career. 1:11:56.920 --> 1:11:58.800 All the time, like I'm trying to protect and you 1:11:58.800 --> 1:12:00.880 can see me trying to protect. It's a really good 1:12:01.360 --> 1:12:03.559 it's a really interesting thing, and we're going to try 1:12:03.600 --> 1:12:05.719 to do more of them. And it's just you can't. 1:12:06.200 --> 1:12:08.240 You cannot capture that with just about anything. I had 1:12:08.280 --> 1:12:10.640 that report with Walt in a different way too, So 1:12:10.680 --> 1:12:13.519 it's really hard to do that. And I was I'm thrilled. 1:12:13.520 --> 1:12:16.519 I enjoy doing it, which I can tell you know 1:12:16.800 --> 1:12:19.679 it comes across he enjoyed. We enjoy it like it's fun. 1:12:19.680 --> 1:12:22.360 And I think that's what's most important, is to you know, 1:12:23.680 --> 1:12:25.599 love the life you live right kind of thing like 1:12:25.640 --> 1:12:27.880 we love it, And that's that's how you make great things, 1:12:27.920 --> 1:12:30.120 if you really enjoy yourself once an episode, I here 1:12:30.200 --> 1:12:33.160 hold me, Kara. You know it, you know it's coming. 1:12:33.240 --> 1:12:36.040 He has all kinds. I'm a gangster. Hestake me a texting. 1:12:36.760 --> 1:12:39.439 Barry's a gangster. I'm like, oh Jesus, can I tell you? 1:12:40.000 --> 1:12:42.880 Can I tell you the gangster? Can I tell you? 1:12:42.880 --> 1:12:45.400 The funniest thing he's ever said I ever heard him 1:12:45.400 --> 1:12:48.000 say so. He knows I'm a car guy. We were 1:12:48.040 --> 1:12:50.880 talking about cars and I misheard him. I thought he 1:12:50.960 --> 1:12:53.960 said g wagon. I didn't realize he had a g 1:12:54.240 --> 1:12:56.320 L wagon. That you wagon is I don't even know 1:12:56.320 --> 1:12:58.960 what you're talking, all right, So Mercedes start bring up football. 1:12:58.960 --> 1:13:02.920 I'm going to Mersey's makes this military vehicle that looks 1:13:02.960 --> 1:13:06.280 like a giant jeep on steroids. It's like a hundred 1:13:06.280 --> 1:13:08.839 and fifty thou dollars. Why do you need this? Nobody 1:13:08.880 --> 1:13:11.320 needs it. It's the worst dumbest thing in the world. 1:13:11.400 --> 1:13:13.880 And when I heard him say g wagon g L, 1:13:14.240 --> 1:13:16.559 I thought he said g wagon, what would that be? 1:13:17.439 --> 1:13:19.720 So g L is like a normal STV g L 1:13:19.800 --> 1:13:23.840 wagon is this? Well, like that's what I thought. I go, 1:13:24.360 --> 1:13:26.120 I go, Scott, I don't know about you and this 1:13:26.240 --> 1:13:29.320 g wagon And his answer was no, no, g L, 1:13:29.479 --> 1:13:33.200 not g wagon. He goes, I'm insecure, not pathetic. I 1:13:33.320 --> 1:13:36.479 still get emails from people about that. Silly. It's funny 1:13:36.520 --> 1:13:38.560 he goes, and when he when we go places. And 1:13:38.600 --> 1:13:41.719 what's really striking about that podcast is I am stopped 1:13:41.760 --> 1:13:44.400 so much on the street, like tell Scott to screw it, 1:13:44.439 --> 1:13:46.800 like and really, yeah, I feel like we don't have 1:13:46.800 --> 1:13:49.640 a TV show because it's really funny. People like he 1:13:49.720 --> 1:13:51.320 was walking on the tarm and of course he's going 1:13:51.320 --> 1:13:53.439 to the Hampton's and a helicopter. I'm not doing that. 1:13:53.479 --> 1:13:56.120 I'm like, I'm in a car with my kids. And 1:13:56.800 --> 1:14:00.000 really he was shoppering and I'm literally driving a car 1:14:00.360 --> 1:14:02.640 card to Province down with my pregnant girl, right and 1:14:02.680 --> 1:14:05.559 my two teenage sons. And it's like and he and 1:14:05.600 --> 1:14:08.880 the guy who does the waves the helicopter down with 1:14:08.920 --> 1:14:12.800 the two batons. He has the earphones on and he 1:14:12.960 --> 1:14:16.759 sees Scott and he goes, where's Gara? Which was really funny. 1:14:16.800 --> 1:14:20.439 Kara is driving like a car up to the cape, 1:14:20.560 --> 1:14:23.040 is what Kara is doing? Anyway. That's that's very He's 1:14:23.080 --> 1:14:26.600 in Nantucket, of course, because he's the elite. Is Nantucket 1:14:26.680 --> 1:14:30.120 considered the Oh my god, been there? That I'm not. 1:14:31.280 --> 1:14:33.040 I'm in the top ten percent. I'm not in the top. 1:14:33.160 --> 1:14:35.160 One color in your house is everything has to look 1:14:35.200 --> 1:14:38.720 the same, the wooden shingles, and you need to not 1:14:38.760 --> 1:14:42.080 go to Nantucket in a province town, you gotta pick. 1:14:42.479 --> 1:14:46.439 I'm a Fire Island guy. I'm very Fire Island faddle 1:14:46.520 --> 1:14:50.720 classic out there exactly all right, So I have to 1:14:50.800 --> 1:14:53.480 let you go eventually. So let me jump to my 1:14:53.560 --> 1:14:56.479 favorite questions that I asked all of my guests. I 1:14:56.520 --> 1:14:58.680 know you don't own a car now, but what was 1:14:58.680 --> 1:15:01.559 the first car you ever owned? Hot a Civic, good, good, 1:15:01.600 --> 1:15:03.559 reliable car. Shift. I have a ship. I always have 1:15:03.560 --> 1:15:08.040 shift car, me too, cars, my jeep. Everything is a 1:15:08.040 --> 1:15:11.639 stick shift. And my wife is now a better driver 1:15:11.760 --> 1:15:14.679 with a stick than I am. It's really uh swagon 1:15:14.760 --> 1:15:18.200 for years, which one bug or something? Later and then 1:15:18.200 --> 1:15:20.080 I had a rabbit. When it was a rabbit, it's 1:15:20.080 --> 1:15:24.280 called something, it's called and then and then I had 1:15:24.320 --> 1:15:26.800 a minivan. I had a hont Of minivan when I 1:15:26.880 --> 1:15:28.799 but not before I had kids. I had a Honey Minivan. 1:15:28.840 --> 1:15:30.800 Then I had a less Bru of course a super 1:15:32.200 --> 1:15:33.840 You saw there was a big article not too long 1:15:33.880 --> 1:15:38.240 ago about how Subru became the car of choice of lesbians, 1:15:38.240 --> 1:15:40.400 and I think it was vany fair. It's a very 1:15:40.479 --> 1:15:42.920 interesting less Brue. I had a less Brut and then 1:15:42.960 --> 1:15:44.760 I never heard of call. I had a jeep for 1:15:45.040 --> 1:15:49.479 New York Manager. They're the worst, terrible, although to be fair, 1:15:49.680 --> 1:15:52.880 they're unstoppable in the snow. I had I had one 1:15:52.960 --> 1:15:55.360 with the with the with the like a real jeep. 1:15:55.880 --> 1:15:57.479 And I had one that was had a hard top, 1:15:57.560 --> 1:15:59.599 and I hated both of them, and then I had 1:15:59.800 --> 1:16:01.879 an Then I started getting into masses. I love masses 1:16:02.320 --> 1:16:04.439 and I love the Mazda. I wanted a Masta too, 1:16:04.920 --> 1:16:07.599 but mosta three, and the three is a happy car. 1:16:07.640 --> 1:16:09.519 It's a good car. It's had a great happy fix. 1:16:09.560 --> 1:16:11.879 That was a great car. And then I just recently 1:16:11.880 --> 1:16:14.679 had a Ford Fiesta Turbo. That's why I'm so sorry 1:16:14.760 --> 1:16:17.519 there was no I'm telling you that's a great years ago. 1:16:17.560 --> 1:16:20.840 I hated, no the Turbo. It really is a good car. 1:16:20.920 --> 1:16:22.640 Don't insult the Ford Fiesta. I will tell you. I 1:16:22.680 --> 1:16:24.640 rented a Ford Edge the other day and I was 1:16:24.680 --> 1:16:26.760 surprised at how good car. Herbo was a different car. 1:16:26.800 --> 1:16:28.160 Everyone made fun of me, and then they got in 1:16:28.200 --> 1:16:30.880 it with its stick shift and we're like, oh, I see, Oh, 1:16:30.960 --> 1:16:33.080 this is wonderful little car. It was a great little car. 1:16:33.120 --> 1:16:34.400 But I do not have any cars. I had a 1:16:34.479 --> 1:16:36.800 Vespa for many years, but I never wrote it. I 1:16:36.880 --> 1:16:38.559 had what do you mean you never drove it? I 1:16:38.560 --> 1:16:40.240 just in Sanrancis was too cold. I had it in 1:16:40.280 --> 1:16:42.360 San Francisco. My my ex gave it to me as 1:16:42.360 --> 1:16:45.759 a Valentine's present. But I love scooters. I write scooters 1:16:45.760 --> 1:16:48.840 all the time, and I love I love scooters. What's 1:16:48.880 --> 1:16:52.120 the most important thing people don't know about? Kara Swish 1:16:52.280 --> 1:16:55.240 and I love scooters. No, people know that, No, that 1:16:55.360 --> 1:16:59.479 I love. I love action films with really bad action 1:16:59.520 --> 1:17:02.360 films like I just I just love those I love. 1:17:02.400 --> 1:17:03.840 I go to all of them and I go by myself. 1:17:03.880 --> 1:17:05.479 I don't want to like, how are you with people 1:17:05.520 --> 1:17:08.280 about how they are? Really? I just go I love them, 1:17:08.320 --> 1:17:10.280 I love them, I love them, I love I love 1:17:10.320 --> 1:17:13.479 Mission Possible. I love Bond. I'm so excited the new 1:17:13.520 --> 1:17:16.040 Bond film is coming out and Drew Elba going to 1:17:16.120 --> 1:17:18.120 be No, no no, it's gonna be Daniel Craig again. Well 1:17:18.160 --> 1:17:20.479 that's this one. I've seen every Bond movie ten times, 1:17:21.800 --> 1:17:24.559 even the bad ones, and uh, I love all those movies. 1:17:24.560 --> 1:17:27.880 I like. I'm excited for Kristen Stewart and Underwater. I 1:17:27.920 --> 1:17:31.400 like anything action and I also love Fast and Furious franchise. 1:17:31.439 --> 1:17:33.559 I love and I love the rock Jack Reacher. Have 1:17:33.600 --> 1:17:35.400 you seen the joke? Yes, so I'm not going to 1:17:35.520 --> 1:17:38.320 name something. How about Night and Day? Yes, of course, 1:17:38.360 --> 1:17:42.040 with me without me, I love it. Let's talk about mentors. 1:17:42.040 --> 1:17:45.320 Tell us about your mentor that's it. One name. Bang. 1:17:45.800 --> 1:17:48.719 He recruited you to the journal. How did he affect 1:17:48.840 --> 1:17:51.439 how you developed as a journalist. He was so generous 1:17:51.479 --> 1:17:53.720 with his power. He had so much power and was 1:17:53.760 --> 1:17:56.960 so generous and and and really it's such a good 1:17:56.960 --> 1:18:00.160 mentor to women in the in the way never air 1:18:00.240 --> 1:18:04.600 to mentor a woman, never early he has. There's a 1:18:04.640 --> 1:18:06.920 group of women he's mentored in a way that has 1:18:06.960 --> 1:18:09.559 been and specifically made sure he did that because he 1:18:09.640 --> 1:18:13.120 understood they were they there were there were issues. Always 1:18:13.160 --> 1:18:16.400 had my back. Um just and I can I can 1:18:16.439 --> 1:18:21.000 be uh difficult, not difficult? No, no no difficult. That's what 1:18:21.040 --> 1:18:22.920 Scott told me. He said, you were difficult. No, I'm 1:18:22.960 --> 1:18:24.680 not difficult. I'm not difficult. I think. I know what 1:18:24.720 --> 1:18:26.880 I want and I can say it very loudly and 1:18:26.920 --> 1:18:28.680 I don't you know, I think and I do it 1:18:28.720 --> 1:18:31.479 around powerful people like Rupert. Mark said time to me, 1:18:31.560 --> 1:18:34.000 I was like no, and everyone was like WHOA, what 1:18:34.040 --> 1:18:37.080 do you do? At one point it was let me 1:18:37.080 --> 1:18:39.800 tell you this very very so we would meet with him. 1:18:39.800 --> 1:18:42.880 Mark loved Walt Moss Burt love, He loved reading him. 1:18:42.880 --> 1:18:44.760 He was thrilled when he bought the journal. Always had 1:18:44.760 --> 1:18:48.599 Walt to lunch and everything, and I was always with him, 1:18:48.800 --> 1:18:52.479 right like I was there. I'm certain Rupermar didn't know 1:18:52.600 --> 1:18:55.280 my name. He thought you were hit Walt's assistant. He knew, 1:18:55.400 --> 1:18:57.880 he was aware that I was his partner, you know 1:18:57.880 --> 1:19:00.600 what I mean, But he didn't know. I was like 1:19:00.640 --> 1:19:04.519 he didn't and so he never he'd be like wall, Wall, Wall, 1:19:04.520 --> 1:19:06.400 how are you? How are you're doing? You know? Mumbles? 1:19:06.439 --> 1:19:09.960 And I was always with him, and so he later 1:19:10.000 --> 1:19:11.800 knows who I am. And he used to call me 1:19:11.840 --> 1:19:13.560 a lot during the Internet thing like what do you 1:19:13.600 --> 1:19:14.840 think of this company? What do you think that? Which 1:19:14.880 --> 1:19:16.559 was interesting. I'd get a call like four in the 1:19:16.600 --> 1:19:18.800 morning for moving Rupert's call on the phone and I'm like, 1:19:18.840 --> 1:19:23.200 all right, sure or whatever. But um, but he we 1:19:23.200 --> 1:19:25.240 were in the office one day and he's like wha 1:19:25.479 --> 1:19:29.439 and he goes, well hello, and I go listen. I 1:19:29.520 --> 1:19:32.400 don't think you know my name, but it's Kara Swisher. 1:19:33.120 --> 1:19:35.040 Next time I come, I'd like you to say hi, Kara, 1:19:35.160 --> 1:19:36.800 because I want you to remember my name if you 1:19:36.800 --> 1:19:38.519 don't mind. But I don't think you know my name 1:19:38.640 --> 1:19:40.439 right now. And I'm sorry to be rude, but I'm 1:19:40.439 --> 1:19:42.880 just wanting like why pretend? What was the reaction He's like, 1:19:42.920 --> 1:19:46.160 I know your name. I'm like, well, I said, all right, 1:19:46.240 --> 1:19:47.599 if you know what you do, but I don't think 1:19:47.600 --> 1:19:49.559 you do. I know it, and I go, all right, 1:19:49.920 --> 1:19:51.320 I don't think you do. And I was like, what 1:19:51.479 --> 1:19:53.200 was like? Stop at Carol and the next time you 1:19:53.200 --> 1:19:55.960 showed up, he said, you always knew my name after 1:19:56.000 --> 1:19:58.960 That's very, very funny. Let's talk about books. We've touched 1:19:58.960 --> 1:20:01.760 on a few books and will include your books. What 1:20:01.800 --> 1:20:04.680 are some of your favorite books, tech non tech? What 1:20:04.720 --> 1:20:07.400 do you like? I'm reading I've been reading ron Cherno 1:20:07.479 --> 1:20:12.320 Hamilton's book for six years now, can't finish. He ends badly, 1:20:12.960 --> 1:20:15.559 um no no, and I'm gonna play on Broadway. It 1:20:15.560 --> 1:20:17.800 worked out well so early. But I think the book 1:20:17.840 --> 1:20:20.080 is great, and I'm really I love historical books. I'm 1:20:20.160 --> 1:20:23.200 right now reading um List. I just finished I'll Be 1:20:23.200 --> 1:20:26.519 Gone in the Dark. Michelle McNamara's book about the Golden 1:20:26.520 --> 1:20:29.320 State Killer. Just a really interest. I love dogged people, 1:20:29.320 --> 1:20:32.280 and she was how that eventually got solved. But yeah, 1:20:32.400 --> 1:20:34.960 well DNA That's why I was interested. And I'm sort 1:20:35.000 --> 1:20:36.920 of super interested in DNA right now. So I just 1:20:36.960 --> 1:20:39.160 read that book, but it turned out to be a 1:20:39.160 --> 1:20:44.280 fascinating book. Um. I am reading uh, Taffy Acnear's Fleishman's 1:20:44.280 --> 1:20:45.920 in Trouble. I had her on the podcast and I 1:20:45.960 --> 1:20:49.400 didn't fan me great novel. She's a great feature writer 1:20:49.479 --> 1:20:52.840 and she's trying her hand at novels. Um. I read 1:20:52.880 --> 1:20:54.400 a lot of the books I have to do podcasts on. 1:20:54.439 --> 1:20:58.040 I'm reading Andrew Marin's's book about Disinformation because he's going 1:20:58.080 --> 1:21:01.080 to be on the podcast my Isaac's book. I'm giving 1:21:01.120 --> 1:21:02.840 him his book party for the Uber book. Although I 1:21:02.880 --> 1:21:04.519 don't want to know more about Uber, I know a 1:21:04.520 --> 1:21:06.120 lot about it. You know how that ends. But it's 1:21:06.160 --> 1:21:08.360 a good book. It's a good book. Um. Yeah, and 1:21:08.640 --> 1:21:11.160 so that's interesting. I read a lot of nonfiction more 1:21:11.160 --> 1:21:15.080 than fiction I wish I read. I'm reading this book 1:21:15.120 --> 1:21:18.000 that's amazing and I'm going to blank on her name. Julia, 1:21:18.840 --> 1:21:22.160 Julia Gabby Rivera's new book. It's I can't remember the 1:21:22.200 --> 1:21:25.120 name of it anyway, you hear, very new book and 1:21:25.120 --> 1:21:28.559 it's amazing. It's really wonderful. Juliana takes on something or 1:21:28.600 --> 1:21:32.320 that she's she's really great. She's a beautiful writer. And 1:21:32.320 --> 1:21:34.839 I'm trying to read more fiction because I think everybody 1:21:34.880 --> 1:21:37.360 wants to read more fiction. It's very stupid fiction. I 1:21:37.479 --> 1:21:41.280 just really, you know, really, I like fiction. I mean 1:21:41.320 --> 1:21:43.280 for work, don't you have to do a ton? I 1:21:43.320 --> 1:21:44.800 do a ton of reading. I read the Internet all 1:21:44.880 --> 1:21:46.920 day long, and I read a lot of stories. Um, 1:21:46.960 --> 1:21:49.719 but I tend to I like I like feature writers. 1:21:49.720 --> 1:21:52.400 Some of my favorite feature writers Jessica Pressler, Olivia Nuzzy. 1:21:52.560 --> 1:21:56.000 They're all women. It's interesting, Taffy Acner, Um. I like 1:21:56.080 --> 1:21:59.360 them all. I find them really wonderful. I love their writing. 1:21:59.360 --> 1:22:01.920 I think they're great. Tell Us about a time you've 1:22:01.960 --> 1:22:05.280 failed and what you learned from the experience failed nobody 1:22:05.320 --> 1:22:08.360 bats at thousand. I don't look at it as failure. 1:22:08.400 --> 1:22:10.360 I hate to sound like a Silicon Valley person, but 1:22:10.400 --> 1:22:14.000 it sound like Ray Dally keep going. I don't look 1:22:14.040 --> 1:22:16.960 at them as failures. I don't think I'm trying to, well, 1:22:16.960 --> 1:22:19.120 what did you learn from the experience of something that 1:22:19.160 --> 1:22:21.160 we can just do something else. I have a very 1:22:21.160 --> 1:22:24.320 good ability just to like okay, next, next, like thank 1:22:24.320 --> 1:22:28.000 you next, um uh, it's it's I just don't think 1:22:28.040 --> 1:22:29.800 of it that way. I don't think. I don't think 1:22:30.000 --> 1:22:32.760 I The only failures I can think of is with 1:22:32.800 --> 1:22:35.960 my children, like I should have given also right, I 1:22:36.000 --> 1:22:40.519 should have done more of this sometimes like I should 1:22:40.560 --> 1:22:43.880 have made decisions faster. It's all related to my children. Um. 1:22:43.880 --> 1:22:45.840 And even then, I think I'm a very good parent. 1:22:45.920 --> 1:22:48.320 I think I'm a really good parent. So no failures ever, 1:22:48.560 --> 1:22:51.680 I know that's not but I don't like, Well, my 1:22:51.760 --> 1:22:53.679 dad died when I was five. That's not a failure, 1:22:53.720 --> 1:22:56.519 but it's certainly it for me. And I think I'm 1:22:56.640 --> 1:22:59.599 very resilient because of it, even though I would rather 1:22:59.640 --> 1:23:03.639 be less resilient in him alive. So you know, sometimes 1:23:03.680 --> 1:23:05.639 I lose my temper with my mom and I wish 1:23:05.720 --> 1:23:08.040 I had and it's a lot of that kind of stuff. Um. 1:23:08.080 --> 1:23:09.760 But big career failer is, you know, I think I'm 1:23:09.800 --> 1:23:12.200 really good at career. I'd have to say I've timed 1:23:12.200 --> 1:23:13.880 it well. I think I think I've done a good 1:23:13.960 --> 1:23:15.559 job on my career for sure. And that's in a 1:23:15.640 --> 1:23:17.679 very And also, you know, when I had a stroke, 1:23:17.760 --> 1:23:20.559 I thought, wait, what I had a stroke with five 1:23:20.680 --> 1:23:22.799 six years ago? Hold on a sex. So the answer 1:23:22.840 --> 1:23:24.800 to the question, what's the most important thing we don't 1:23:24.800 --> 1:23:26.960 know about you? Oh, the stroke. People do know about it. 1:23:27.040 --> 1:23:29.040 I don't know, but I didn't listen. I do a 1:23:29.080 --> 1:23:32.360 ton of research into every guest. I didn'tng on my 1:23:32.400 --> 1:23:34.560 way to do a make money for Rupert Murdoch. I 1:23:34.600 --> 1:23:37.120 did an All Things Digital D China and Asia D 1:23:37.800 --> 1:23:39.800 so from the flight on the flight. Yeah, and it 1:23:39.840 --> 1:23:41.439 turned out I had a hole in my heart, which 1:23:41.960 --> 1:23:43.880 many people have dated me have said, no, I'm kidding, 1:23:44.240 --> 1:23:48.360 I'm pretty good. That is a mark. Yeah, yeah, I 1:23:48.439 --> 1:23:50.160 to hold my heart. It's called the PFO. And I 1:23:50.200 --> 1:23:52.479 had sticky blood, as I found out through twenty three 1:23:52.520 --> 1:23:57.040 and me and I was Mediterranean, but it's a kind 1:23:57.040 --> 1:23:59.360 of it's a condition for the But so, so, what 1:23:59.439 --> 1:24:03.360 were the what was the impact of the stroke? It 1:24:03.560 --> 1:24:06.719 reinforced my feeling that life is short and you better 1:24:06.760 --> 1:24:10.320 get going. True, But what was the biological What were 1:24:10.360 --> 1:24:14.080 the medical sets? I like the philosophical Yeah, I mean, 1:24:14.120 --> 1:24:16.400 I'm with Steve jobs on that I had a hole 1:24:16.439 --> 1:24:17.800 in my heart and there's nothing I can do about 1:24:17.800 --> 1:24:20.559 it's much So wait, your stroke was cerebral stroke or 1:24:20.680 --> 1:24:24.439 cardiac cardiac I probably be dead. So so you have 1:24:24.520 --> 1:24:27.760 a stroke with no limitations and no, it just was 1:24:27.800 --> 1:24:31.320 amazing no cognitive function, physical very short amount of time 1:24:31.520 --> 1:24:33.320 that day, and then it was done. I was like 1:24:33.360 --> 1:24:35.400 talking like this, and was the hole in your heart 1:24:35.400 --> 1:24:38.719 discovered post stroke investigation. So you got a little lucky 1:24:39.200 --> 1:24:42.920 with a minor stroke that discovered this leakage in one 1:24:42.920 --> 1:24:44.760 of your valves or what was it was? It's a 1:24:44.800 --> 1:24:46.800 hole in your heart's got a PFO. And when you're born, 1:24:46.840 --> 1:24:49.200 there's a flap where the emotic fluid goes back and 1:24:49.240 --> 1:24:52.920 forth and supposed to close, it closes up. It flaps 1:24:52.960 --> 1:24:58.519 over and then seals. And people doesn't seal. Human doesn't leak. 1:24:58.560 --> 1:25:01.680 It just is there, just a lap. It's flaps and 1:25:01.720 --> 1:25:04.719 doesn't on a clock got through. If there's no clock 1:25:04.760 --> 1:25:07.439 getting through, it doesn't matter. So I'm not a doctor, 1:25:07.479 --> 1:25:09.760 but I wrote a big column on that actually in 1:25:09.800 --> 1:25:13.479 the Times Perry died. Oh yes, I wrote saying I 1:25:13.479 --> 1:25:15.040 had a stroke and my brothers saved my life. My 1:25:15.040 --> 1:25:16.720 brother is a doctor. And when I was in Hong 1:25:16.800 --> 1:25:19.760 Kong and I was well, I was, I was there 1:25:19.800 --> 1:25:22.040 and I suddenly couldn't talk. I had a dysphasia. And 1:25:22.080 --> 1:25:24.160 I was like and I was in a hotel room 1:25:24.200 --> 1:25:25.960 and I was like, well, I can't call anybody. And 1:25:25.960 --> 1:25:29.120 I felt, okay, a little headache, could you. I had 1:25:29.120 --> 1:25:30.599 a little bit of tingle in my hand, but yeah, 1:25:30.600 --> 1:25:32.280 I was writing a story about Yahoo, and I was like, 1:25:32.320 --> 1:25:34.040 you know these idiots that, yeah, who once again are 1:25:34.080 --> 1:25:38.120 screwing up or something, And it was my finger tingled. 1:25:38.160 --> 1:25:39.640 I tried to eat something. It fell out of my 1:25:39.640 --> 1:25:42.680 mouth and then I was like wow. And I was like, huh. 1:25:42.840 --> 1:25:44.920 And I thought I had a migraine side migraines for years, 1:25:44.960 --> 1:25:47.200 which is a sign of a stroke among women. Realized 1:25:47.200 --> 1:25:49.439 that not everybody was migraines gets a stroke, but it's 1:25:49.439 --> 1:25:52.439 one of the signals. And and I've been traveling and 1:25:52.479 --> 1:25:54.040 I thought a lot and I was like, oh, I 1:25:54.160 --> 1:25:56.160 just I'm just so tired, that's what it is. And 1:25:56.240 --> 1:25:58.160 so I wrote my brother. I texted him and it 1:25:58.200 --> 1:25:59.680 was a different time, and I think it was in 1:25:59.720 --> 1:26:01.840 the middle the night in San Francisco and he's an 1:26:01.840 --> 1:26:05.440 anesthesiologist and he said, um, like my father was an anesthesiologist, 1:26:05.920 --> 1:26:08.280 and he he texted me. I went up to breakfast 1:26:08.280 --> 1:26:10.559 and by the time I got to breakfast, you know, 1:26:10.600 --> 1:26:12.400 I'd woken up at four in the morning, Hong Kong time, 1:26:12.400 --> 1:26:13.840 and then I went up or whatever, and then went 1:26:13.920 --> 1:26:15.600 up to breakfast. By the time it was gone, it 1:26:15.680 --> 1:26:17.760 was sort of talking like this, like I had like 1:26:17.840 --> 1:26:21.080 teeth surgery and I and I got up to the 1:26:21.120 --> 1:26:23.280 thing and and my brother called. He says, get yourself 1:26:23.280 --> 1:26:25.120 to a hospital right now. You're having a stroke. And 1:26:25.160 --> 1:26:28.040 I said, are you crazy, Like you're such a bad doctor, 1:26:28.080 --> 1:26:30.960 how ridiculous that I'm you know, whatever, years old. I 1:26:31.000 --> 1:26:33.719 was not old. And so I think my late parties 1:26:33.760 --> 1:26:38.160 and or maybe fifty in and it was for late parties. 1:26:38.280 --> 1:26:40.240 And so he said, you were having a stroke. Get 1:26:40.360 --> 1:26:43.280 get to a hospital now now. And I was like okay, 1:26:43.320 --> 1:26:45.559 And so I did, and he was right, and I 1:26:45.600 --> 1:26:47.360 was having a stroke. And it wasn't a minor stroke. 1:26:47.360 --> 1:26:49.280 It was a stroke. And so you know all strokes, 1:26:49.280 --> 1:26:51.679 I mean there's things and t M I whatever they're called, 1:26:52.280 --> 1:26:57.760 um and uh. And they medicated me immediately and I 1:26:57.760 --> 1:27:01.280 didn't have any repercussions. He flew to Hong Kong immediately. 1:27:01.520 --> 1:27:04.840 But he saved my life. He did. That's amazing, you know. 1:27:04.880 --> 1:27:07.160 Now he's never let me live it in to day. 1:27:07.160 --> 1:27:09.280 I don't that's the trade off for saving your life. 1:27:09.360 --> 1:27:12.400 I'm gonna hold this over you for a great doctor. Um, 1:27:12.560 --> 1:27:14.960 tell us what you do for fun? Oh, I don't 1:27:14.960 --> 1:27:17.080 have fun? What's that? No? I I have a lot 1:27:17.120 --> 1:27:19.120 of friends. I have a ton of friends. Um. I 1:27:19.160 --> 1:27:21.360 love spending time with my kids. My kids are amazing. 1:27:21.400 --> 1:27:23.360 My two sons are astonishing. And I'm about to have 1:27:23.560 --> 1:27:27.320 a baby with my girlfriend who is having a little girl. Uh. 1:27:27.320 --> 1:27:28.800 So I was family. I spent a lot of time 1:27:28.840 --> 1:27:32.320 with family. I think that's fun for me doing family stuff. Um. 1:27:32.479 --> 1:27:34.920 I don't have a lot of weird hobbies. I used 1:27:34.960 --> 1:27:37.960 to roller blade. I don't do that anymore. Um. You 1:27:37.960 --> 1:27:39.519 know I did sell cycle that I'm not gonna do. 1:27:39.520 --> 1:27:41.880 I'm gonna try it something else. You're out pound coast 1:27:41.920 --> 1:27:44.120 of it. I was gonna say, Peloton is really the 1:27:44.120 --> 1:27:46.400 best need my thousands of dollars. It's it's not a 1:27:46.400 --> 1:27:48.240 little money. It's not like I get a one Starbucks 1:27:48.280 --> 1:27:50.519 a week gets a lot of money their thirty dollars session. 1:27:50.520 --> 1:27:52.759 I don't have to give them the money, you know whatever. 1:27:52.760 --> 1:27:54.840 People can make their own decisions. I don't care. I 1:27:54.840 --> 1:27:56.240 don't have to. But they can also leave me the 1:27:56.240 --> 1:27:59.120 hell on if I want to do something else. So um, 1:27:59.560 --> 1:28:01.680 so I know it's virtue signing. I don't care. I 1:28:01.680 --> 1:28:03.680 don't want to spend the money there. I hate the 1:28:03.680 --> 1:28:07.280 phrase virtue signaling. Christ really I can add hominum attack. 1:28:07.439 --> 1:28:09.719 It's not about the argument who I am. And people 1:28:09.760 --> 1:28:11.519 have pushed back about that, and you go back to 1:28:11.560 --> 1:28:14.200 the person who created the phrase and he describes it 1:28:14.560 --> 1:28:16.880 as a personal attack against people whose ideas when I 1:28:16.960 --> 1:28:18.360 just I just want to do it, like leave me, 1:28:18.600 --> 1:28:19.920 but you know, mind your own business and I won't 1:28:19.960 --> 1:28:22.559 be money who I spend my money, my money. I work. 1:28:22.640 --> 1:28:26.280 I work so hard and I could okay, no, I 1:28:26.280 --> 1:28:29.320 mean or people who are politically I just want to 1:28:29.320 --> 1:28:30.920 spend the money. When I spend my most things you 1:28:30.960 --> 1:28:33.080 can't figure ever, And then they're like, well this is 1:28:33.080 --> 1:28:35.080 this and like you can't figure everything, but that's a 1:28:35.080 --> 1:28:37.840 clear one. That's a clear one, Like I get that 1:28:38.280 --> 1:28:41.160 has signaled. You know, if I eat like a Hersheibar 1:28:41.400 --> 1:28:43.640 this money, I can't figure all that, of course, but 1:28:43.680 --> 1:28:46.680 in this case, this guy made a prominent gesture, and 1:28:46.720 --> 1:28:49.080 I'm going to make a prominent gesture back. So that's 1:28:49.160 --> 1:28:51.479 you know, and that's why there's no lot of logic 1:28:51.520 --> 1:28:53.799 to it's care Swisher logic. And by the way, carrocial 1:28:53.800 --> 1:28:56.360 logic applies to cars. Can I tell you there is 1:28:56.439 --> 1:28:58.559 logic to it when someone is going to be a 1:28:58.760 --> 1:29:04.640 very visible patron of someone whose beliefs not just disagree 1:29:04.640 --> 1:29:11.559 with yours, but are actively oppressing your UM identification care. 1:29:11.600 --> 1:29:12.800 I just don't like it. I don't like I don't 1:29:12.800 --> 1:29:14.400 want to give money. That's all. That's it's It's not 1:29:14.439 --> 1:29:16.320 even that complicated. By the way, I feel terrible for 1:29:16.360 --> 1:29:18.040 mentally well, and it's Soul Cycle. I'd love to have 1:29:18.120 --> 1:29:19.880 on the podcast to talk about it. I think, I 1:29:19.920 --> 1:29:22.280 think the people of Soul Cycle, I'm so sorry that 1:29:22.320 --> 1:29:23.600 they have to go through this. But you know what, 1:29:23.640 --> 1:29:25.880 I'll spinning out to a separate entity. I was like, 1:29:25.920 --> 1:29:27.839 I want to call the rain Jobs and say, Lorraine, 1:29:27.840 --> 1:29:32.920 who does love Soul Cycle? But then you're behavi ares. 1:29:32.960 --> 1:29:35.360 I can do something about it, you know, but then 1:29:35.400 --> 1:29:38.920 you reward. You're going to reward for fun. I hang 1:29:38.960 --> 1:29:42.720 out with friends. That's it. UM tell us what you're 1:29:42.720 --> 1:29:46.760 most optimistic and pessimistic about your chosen field of technology 1:29:46.800 --> 1:29:49.919 and journalism. I am optimistic because there's so much exciting 1:29:50.040 --> 1:29:52.640 stuff going on and so much innovation happening in journalism. 1:29:52.680 --> 1:29:55.000 And I think that even though people sort of declared 1:29:55.040 --> 1:29:56.640 the end, when people were declaring the end of the 1:29:56.640 --> 1:29:59.439 world and stuff, I remember Barry deal or saying, you know, 1:29:59.560 --> 1:30:03.960 it's just it's never that, it's never. You can't whine 1:30:04.000 --> 1:30:06.439 and give up on things like it's been a losing 1:30:06.439 --> 1:30:08.720 bed for five yeah, you know. And journalists tend to 1:30:08.840 --> 1:30:11.400 like not check like sometimes, like I was talking to someone, 1:30:11.400 --> 1:30:12.680 They're like, Oh, this is what's happening, and this is 1:30:12.680 --> 1:30:14.400 what's happening. I'm like, did you check if this is 1:30:14.400 --> 1:30:16.920 what's happening? Because you're just making that up. And so 1:30:16.960 --> 1:30:19.799 I think you have to really feel, you know, anyone 1:30:19.800 --> 1:30:22.320 who has children has to believe in the future, anyone, 1:30:22.560 --> 1:30:24.280 you know. And I have a lot of children, so 1:30:24.320 --> 1:30:26.000 I believe in the future. I don't want to have 1:30:26.080 --> 1:30:29.439 children if I didn't. So what are you pessimistic about? Um? 1:30:29.680 --> 1:30:33.160 The autocracy? On one hand, I feel like autocrats always 1:30:33.240 --> 1:30:35.719 end up dead in the dantage drainage ditch. I studied 1:30:35.800 --> 1:30:39.160 the Holocaust quite heavily and propaganda and stuff in the Haga, 1:30:39.280 --> 1:30:42.519 so it can get really bad. And when's the point 1:30:42.520 --> 1:30:44.560 where it stays bad and it hasn't so far in 1:30:44.600 --> 1:30:47.360 our history. There's always someone who looks at Joe slamcars 1:30:47.400 --> 1:30:50.080 dand says, have you no shame? And it ends like 1:30:50.160 --> 1:30:52.519 it doesn't end totally, but it stops. The fever stops. 1:30:52.680 --> 1:30:55.519 You have someone at the Salem which right, the Salem 1:30:55.520 --> 1:30:58.720 witch trials, they were terrible. They ended the You know 1:30:58.960 --> 1:31:01.519 that I was around when I was a formative years, 1:31:01.760 --> 1:31:04.280 AIDS was terrible. During the Reagan administration. The stuff the 1:31:04.280 --> 1:31:07.479 Reagan administration was doing was appalling. James Watt said trees 1:31:07.560 --> 1:31:11.840 caused cancer. What everybody's seeing trees caused pollution? Remember him 1:31:14.600 --> 1:31:17.599 carbon die right? Whatever? James Watt where. I'm sure he's 1:31:17.640 --> 1:31:20.639 not living anymore, but he It was just there's there's 1:31:20.680 --> 1:31:23.840 there's always these people that are retrogade, and I use 1:31:24.000 --> 1:31:26.560 I'll end on this one of my favorite. Um, I 1:31:26.760 --> 1:31:28.000 see the thing. You know what I do for fun? 1:31:28.040 --> 1:31:29.479 I go to the theater. I love I'm seeing Mulan 1:31:29.520 --> 1:31:32.439 Roustena and stuff like that. Have I gotta say, have 1:31:32.520 --> 1:31:35.880 you seen to Of course I did. I've seen every 1:31:35.880 --> 1:31:39.240 one of them. Talk about powerful. I love theater. Make 1:31:39.320 --> 1:31:41.720 It's transformative for me as a person. I've always since 1:31:41.760 --> 1:31:43.040 I was a kid. My mom brought us. It's a 1:31:43.040 --> 1:31:45.400 real gift. My mom gave us to love of theater. 1:31:45.560 --> 1:31:49.360 And so I was Angels in America is one of 1:31:49.439 --> 1:31:51.920 my favorite ones, and I've seen it at least a 1:31:52.040 --> 1:31:54.880 dozen times. Tony Kushner's two parts and the end of 1:31:54.880 --> 1:31:57.160 the play, Um, it's a wonderful play. It's such a 1:31:57.160 --> 1:31:59.320 beautifully written play in such a time. It's harder than 1:31:59.320 --> 1:32:01.240 this time to remember for it. But it was terrible 1:32:01.280 --> 1:32:04.120 during the AIDS. Christ is terrible, terrible, terrible people dying, 1:32:04.160 --> 1:32:08.760 these wonderful people dying like way before their time. And um, 1:32:08.800 --> 1:32:11.120 and the last line of the of the thing, they're 1:32:11.120 --> 1:32:16.080 standing at the fountain in Central Park, the Bethesda Fountain, 1:32:16.640 --> 1:32:20.120 and uh, she said, he's the line he gives is 1:32:20.160 --> 1:32:22.720 the world always spins forward, and this is our time. 1:32:22.760 --> 1:32:25.920 We will not be silent anymore. And I remember being 1:32:25.960 --> 1:32:27.960 a gay person then just coming out, and you people 1:32:28.000 --> 1:32:29.640 don't remember when it was hard to be gay, and 1:32:29.680 --> 1:32:31.280 it still is in many parts of the world, but 1:32:31.439 --> 1:32:33.599 it's easy. I have kids better in the United States, 1:32:33.640 --> 1:32:35.720 so it's like you can't believe it, you can't believe it. 1:32:35.920 --> 1:32:39.519 And so I remember that really impacting me. The world 1:32:39.560 --> 1:32:41.600 always spins forward. And that's why I thinking everyone's like 1:32:41.600 --> 1:32:45.160 Trump's gonna reverything. I'm like, is he he can't, Well, 1:32:45.160 --> 1:32:48.840 he'll do damage for four years and hopefully then he can't, 1:32:48.880 --> 1:32:51.200 and like, and we'll fix it. We can fix it 1:32:51.240 --> 1:32:52.639 and we can pick it up. And I think that's 1:32:52.680 --> 1:32:54.439 where I get up. The same thing with journalism, the 1:32:54.479 --> 1:32:58.840 same thing with anything, is that people they always end up. 1:32:59.000 --> 1:33:01.679 These people that want to push us back to old times, 1:33:01.760 --> 1:33:04.519 which brings people down. There are people that stand up 1:33:04.520 --> 1:33:06.559 and say enough is enough, no more. When is that 1:33:06.600 --> 1:33:09.479 going to happen? It will all right. I hope you're right. 1:33:09.880 --> 1:33:13.040 Last two questions and a millennial or college grad comes 1:33:13.040 --> 1:33:15.440 to you and says, I'm interested in the career in journalism. 1:33:15.640 --> 1:33:18.519 What sort of advice would you give us? Start writing? 1:33:18.880 --> 1:33:22.160 Just start looking around and start writing, start reporting, Start writing. 1:33:22.560 --> 1:33:24.880 So much amazing journalist is being done right now and 1:33:24.920 --> 1:33:27.920 again because these times are harder, same thing happened during 1:33:27.920 --> 1:33:30.800 the last time we had something like this. So just 1:33:31.360 --> 1:33:36.439 get out your pen, whatever, whatever, get out whatever you 1:33:36.479 --> 1:33:38.799 can and start telling stories. And I think telling stories 1:33:38.880 --> 1:33:42.920 is the greatest talent that humans have, is to tell stories. 1:33:43.760 --> 1:33:47.920 Quite interesting. And our final questions, what do you questions, Barry, 1:33:48.360 --> 1:33:51.280 I come prepared. What what do you know about the 1:33:51.320 --> 1:33:56.559 world anymore special about That's true. That's a fair po 1:33:57.080 --> 1:33:59.559 serial killer, right, you know, that's what I used to 1:33:59.560 --> 1:34:01.760 do before with this. My son's name is Louie. There's 1:34:01.760 --> 1:34:05.479 nobody named old Jewish Louis. Yeah, well, okay, there you go. 1:34:05.920 --> 1:34:09.400 So you named your kid after Louis's name, that is 1:34:09.400 --> 1:34:12.360 a digression. I did not. His name is Lewis. I 1:34:12.400 --> 1:34:14.719 did not name it after one of my favorite seafood 1:34:14.720 --> 1:34:18.120 places is Louise in Port Washington. I grew up in 1:34:18.640 --> 1:34:22.559 um Oh, so I'm in Locust Valley and I went 1:34:22.600 --> 1:34:27.280 to Portlage. Oh. Portlage is literally vilege thirty seconds from 1:34:27.280 --> 1:34:31.000 my I live in and can I tell you when 1:34:31.120 --> 1:34:35.280 whenever people visit me, they're like, I didn't know Long 1:34:35.320 --> 1:34:37.160 Island was like this. I'm like, well, you made a 1:34:37.400 --> 1:34:39.599 you made a left and you went to Connecticut. This 1:34:39.680 --> 1:34:42.599 is this is the US. So my sister's kids want 1:34:42.680 --> 1:34:44.479 to say that I don't know. You grew up in 1:34:46.400 --> 1:34:49.400 very interesting. What was I saying? Our final question, what 1:34:49.439 --> 1:34:51.880 do you know about the world of technology today that 1:34:51.960 --> 1:34:55.120 you wish you knew. However, many years, thirty years ago, 1:34:55.200 --> 1:34:57.479 when you first started, I know about it today. I 1:34:57.520 --> 1:35:00.920 wish I knew. Gosh, I forget more about technology than 1:35:00.920 --> 1:35:04.360 most people know. So um in an hour. Mm hmmm, 1:35:05.680 --> 1:35:10.080 I don't. I think I didn't quite on the damage. 1:35:10.240 --> 1:35:12.759 I think I wish I had understood the damage earlier 1:35:12.760 --> 1:35:15.880 so I could start writing about it and stopping it. Privacy, 1:35:15.960 --> 1:35:18.679 social networks, damage, all of it, the idea that these 1:35:18.800 --> 1:35:22.080 the impact on humanity, and how you know. I studied 1:35:22.080 --> 1:35:25.000 propaganda at Georgetown. That was my area of expertise in 1:35:25.080 --> 1:35:27.200 the Foreign service schools the US. As a propaganda I 1:35:27.240 --> 1:35:31.719 should have understood having studied the Nazis, and especially the Nazis, 1:35:31.720 --> 1:35:36.080 how they used propaganda to um to to to in 1:35:36.120 --> 1:35:39.519 the roll up to killing so many people. The way 1:35:39.560 --> 1:35:41.599 they used it, it was not a one day thing. 1:35:41.760 --> 1:35:44.000 You can't just sloater millions. You gotta prep you gotta 1:35:44.040 --> 1:35:46.240 prep it, and you gotta get the population. Comparing it 1:35:46.280 --> 1:35:49.120 to the Holocaust, but there's damage being done that is 1:35:49.240 --> 1:35:52.160 very It's a similar thing is how we make people 1:35:52.240 --> 1:35:55.160 the other and I think the internet, and I think 1:35:55.160 --> 1:35:57.160 the Internet is very effective at thought. It is and 1:35:57.160 --> 1:35:59.320 I thought it was gonna be Star Trek. I thought 1:35:59.360 --> 1:36:00.960 it was gonna be We're all gonna have communicators and 1:36:00.960 --> 1:36:02.160 love each other, and we're all going to be on 1:36:02.200 --> 1:36:04.120 a ship. But it's both. You have the good and 1:36:04.200 --> 1:36:06.320 the bad. That that's right. So the question is are 1:36:06.360 --> 1:36:08.479 you a Star Trek person or a Star Wars person? 1:36:09.320 --> 1:36:12.000 Star Wars it's very dark. It's dark, and Star Trek 1:36:12.080 --> 1:36:14.120 is very hopeful. I was a Star Trek person far 1:36:14.160 --> 1:36:18.559 far too long. That's very interesting, fascinating stuff. Thank you 1:36:18.600 --> 1:36:22.680 so much with your time. We have been speaking with 1:36:22.760 --> 1:36:26.280 Kara Swisher. She is the founder of Recode. I mentioned 1:36:26.320 --> 1:36:28.680 you want a Lobe award right, and she writes a 1:36:28.760 --> 1:36:32.160 weekly opinion column now for the New York Times. If 1:36:32.160 --> 1:36:35.160 you enjoy this conversation, well look up an Inch, Down 1:36:35.160 --> 1:36:38.880 an Inch on all of our previous two and fifty 1:36:38.920 --> 1:36:43.800 plus conversations and I'm sure you'll find something that you'll enjoy. Uh. 1:36:43.920 --> 1:36:47.120 We love your comments, feedback and suggestions right to us 1:36:47.200 --> 1:36:50.400 at m IB podcast at Bloomberg dot net, Go to 1:36:50.439 --> 1:36:53.679 Apple iTunes and give us a lovely review. Be sure 1:36:53.720 --> 1:36:56.040 to check out my weekly column. You could see that 1:36:56.080 --> 1:36:59.200 at Bloomberg dot com. I would be remiss if I 1:36:59.240 --> 1:37:01.800 did not thank the crack staff that helps us put 1:37:01.840 --> 1:37:06.479 together the easiest podcast to record UH in podcast Land. 1:37:06.560 --> 1:37:09.960 Charlie Volmer is my audio engineer this week. Attica val 1:37:10.000 --> 1:37:13.920 Bron is our project manager. Michael Boyle is my producer. 1:37:14.000 --> 1:37:18.080 Michael bat Nick is my head of research. I'm Barry Retults. 1:37:18.240 --> 1:37:21.639 You've been listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio