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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to Coast to Coast AM. I'm your host,

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Speaker 2: Rich Baron. Tonight we're diving in the worlds of freemasonry,

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Speaker 2: chaos magic, symbolism in personal transformation with author and researcher

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Speaker 2: researcher Angel Miller. Born in England and initiated into a

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Speaker 2: chaos magic order back in nineteen ninety. He later became

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Speaker 2: a Freemason in New York and gained rare access to

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Speaker 2: archives most people never even see. He's trained in martial arts,

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Speaker 2: studied fashion at Central Saint Martin's, spent time in a

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Speaker 2: Benedictine monastery, and today he blends psychology, spirituality in ancient

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Speaker 2: wisdom to help people stay centered in a chaotic world.

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Speaker 2: His new book, which I just got yesterday, is called

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Speaker 2: Transcend the Chaos. Angel. Millar joins us, Angel, it is

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Speaker 2: so nice to meet you. Welcome to Coast to Coast, AM.

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Speaker 3: Oh, thank you, it's good to be here.

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Speaker 2: I feel like, because you have a British accident, that

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Speaker 2: everything you say sounds more true than if just a

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Speaker 2: regular old American bloke, as it were, were to lay

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Speaker 2: down the lay down the mysteries. I'm trying to figure

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Speaker 2: out the best way to start with you because you

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Speaker 2: are You just don't have one topic, you have all

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Speaker 2: the topics. So tell us. First of all, let's start

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Speaker 2: with your new book, which I just got. I was

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Speaker 2: just paging through the Transcend the Chaos. What does that

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Speaker 2: mean to you? Transcending the chaos?

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Speaker 3: Well, perhaps I should, I should say that the working

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Speaker 3: titles actually transform the chaos, and which I which I like. Really,

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Speaker 3: it's about recognizing that life is chaos. The world is chaos,

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Speaker 3: which you know sounds bad obviously, but really, because it

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Speaker 3: is chaos, it can continually change. It means there's both

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Speaker 3: dangers and opportunities, and we can mold it, hope fully

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Speaker 3: in our own image in some respects. And yeah, so

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Speaker 3: it's really about engaging the world and then transforming this

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Speaker 3: chaos into a world that, at least for ourselves individually,

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Speaker 3: that we would want to live in and transcend the

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Speaker 3: worst elements of the chaos at least.

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Speaker 2: Have you had luck with transcending and transforming into a

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Speaker 2: world that you want to see inside the cast? Have

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Speaker 2: you seen results yourself?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, definitely, definitely. I mean my personal life has

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Speaker 3: been transformative over the years. Certainly. You know, I never

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Speaker 3: thought I would ever even visit America, and I've ended

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Speaker 3: up living here for twenty six years, and I think,

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Speaker 3: you know, if I take stock of my life, it

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Speaker 3: is not what people would have expected for me growing up.

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Speaker 2: For sure. It's delicious breakfast. What do you think we

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Speaker 2: get the most right here in America?

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Speaker 3: What America gets right most?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, we what do we Because so many people

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Speaker 2: like to to take apart America? But what now that

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Speaker 2: you've been here twenty six years, what is it that

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Speaker 2: you you love? Why do you choose this to be

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Speaker 2: your home?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Well, on the note of people taking America apart, of course,

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Speaker 3: there is nothing as American as criticizing America.

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Speaker 2: That's true. Yeah, we like it's okay if we do it,

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Speaker 2: but people from outside, when they do it, we don't

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Speaker 2: like that much.

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Speaker 3: No, that's right. I mean it's a very Western phenomenon naturally.

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Speaker 3: But I think what America gets right is that it

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Speaker 3: still has that attitude of you know, you can you

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Speaker 3: can make it if you try, or you can make

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Speaker 3: something of your life or yourself regardless, and that is

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Speaker 3: much less present in England. Even though the cultures are

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Speaker 3: in many respects very similar. But but I think that

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Speaker 3: is really decisive in how people's lives play out, if

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Speaker 3: you have that attitude or not.

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Speaker 2: So I feel like that's true. I hope that's still true.

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Speaker 2: I wonder if that's I think that used to be true,

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Speaker 2: that if you push hard, that you can make it.

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Speaker 2: There are signs that we seem to be giving up

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Speaker 2: on that a little bit. Yes, we want to rip

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Speaker 2: all that apart and just see, you know what, who

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Speaker 2: can take care of us? Which is a little alarming.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, that's right. I mean, it's definitely going in

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Speaker 3: a much more sort of British direction where you know,

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Speaker 3: Americans now younger Americans anyway, you want the government to

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Speaker 3: look after you, and you know, I can tell you

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Speaker 3: from experience that that never really works. Do you just

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Speaker 3: open yourself up for a whole host of other problems?

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Speaker 2: Sounds it sounds good, doesn't it. That sounds great, But

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Speaker 2: it doesn't work. No, it hasn't yet anyway. So now

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Speaker 2: your background includes cass magic in the early nineties. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: can you explain that to me a little bit? What

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Speaker 2: is chaos magic?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Sure, So it's sort of embryonic during the nineteen seventies.

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Speaker 3: I was too young for it then, but the original

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Speaker 3: sort of chaos magicians, which they may not even really

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Speaker 3: have been calling themselves chaos magicians at that time, but

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Speaker 3: they had this idea that they were going to reject

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Speaker 3: the sort of old school, old fashioned, very technical magic

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Speaker 3: of the audo temporary orientis and the Golden Dawn, which

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Speaker 3: were very much dominant in British occultism of that time,

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Speaker 3: and they were going to draw on whatever they liked

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Speaker 3: to make up their own rituals, and you know, it'd

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Speaker 3: be much freer with occultism, so to the point where,

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Speaker 3: at least during the late eighties, you know, if you

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Speaker 3: wanted to perform rituals to a cartoon character, then you

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Speaker 3: could do that, which of course would have been absolutely

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Speaker 3: unthinkable before. And I didn't actually see that, but that

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Speaker 3: was an idea and some people did do that. So

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Speaker 3: it's got a much more sort of experimental approach to magic.

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Speaker 2: Let me ask this as sort of a very naive person.

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Speaker 2: All this stuff is these are corners of things that

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Speaker 2: I have heard about in my personal life, but I've

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Speaker 2: not been exposed to in any way. So you're going

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Speaker 2: to have to I say this on the show a

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Speaker 2: lot talk to me like I'm in fourth grade about

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Speaker 2: the magic part of it. So is magic real?

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Speaker 3: Well, that's a good question, but I think we'd have

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Speaker 3: to say that magic itself has changed enormously over the

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Speaker 3: centuries and over the millennia, of course, so that you know,

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Speaker 3: if you go back to the medieval period, magic in

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Speaker 3: the West is going to be lengthy rituals performed. You

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Speaker 3: conjure up a or to make an angel appear, that

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Speaker 3: would give you knowledge of God, and it would be

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Speaker 3: heavily Christian, and of course there would be a belief

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Speaker 3: that Jesus is entirely real, These saints are entirely real,

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Speaker 3: Angels are real, God is real, and it's all literal,

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Speaker 3: and it's all coming from the Bible. Whereas you know,

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Speaker 3: magic during let's say the twentieth century, there's a much

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Speaker 3: bigger emphasis on psychology. It's heavily influenced by Carl Jung

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Speaker 3: in particular, and yeah, it's a much more of psychological approach,

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Speaker 3: and I think in many respects, you know, there's not

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Speaker 3: a lot of sort of psychological continuation between the two,

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Speaker 3: even though people might be performing rituals that are similar

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Speaker 3: or in some cases even the same. The sort of

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Speaker 3: mentality behind them is very different. But chaos magic is

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Speaker 3: is in many respects similar to hypnosis.

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Speaker 2: Well you've got one of those voices. I bet you

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Speaker 2: could hypnotize somebody pretty quick. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well, I actually am certified as a hypnotist, so I

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Speaker 3: can hypnotize people pretty quickly.

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Speaker 2: You know, I've had lots of experience with that over

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Speaker 2: the years, even coming from a very Catholic family. I

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Speaker 2: think I've talked about on the show. At some point,

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Speaker 2: my mom had a really bad car accident and she

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Speaker 2: had agrophobia. She just could not go outside. She couldn't

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Speaker 2: imagine even walking outside, much less getting back into a car,

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Speaker 2: and so many things we tried, and my parents somehow

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Speaker 2: landed on hypnosis and it worked wonders and I think

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Speaker 2: for me later in life, maybe even about four years ago,

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Speaker 2: I went to go see a hypnosis just hypnotist, just

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Speaker 2: because I thought it might be a good thing to

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Speaker 2: put on this show, and I thought I'd try to experience.

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Speaker 2: And one of the things I worked on was just

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Speaker 2: rem bring things, and boy did that open up the

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Speaker 2: vault to download you know, just nothing toumatic, but just

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Speaker 2: memories things like even though things as easy as remembering

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Speaker 2: song lyrics when I go on stage and play with

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Speaker 2: my band, it's almost like there's a whole room of

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Speaker 2: things that you can just find under hypnosis that just

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Speaker 2: kind of rewires the sockets to turn the different lights.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, yeah, yeah, But in regards to your earlier question, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: so chaos magic is it has some similarities to hypnosis

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Speaker 3: in that, you know, if you become a certified hypnotist,

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Speaker 3: you don't have to do hypnosis in the same way

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Speaker 3: that your teacher did it or the school that taught

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Speaker 3: you did it. You know, you just use whatever is

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Speaker 3: effective and maybe you have techniques from somewhere else. And

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Speaker 3: so chaos magic is like that. There is a big

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Speaker 3: emphasis on what they would call nosis, which to other

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Speaker 3: people who would just called tramp. But yeah, so you know,

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Speaker 3: entering a trance, visualizing certain things, trying to embody certain

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Speaker 3: you know, let's say, deit ease or whatever it may be.

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Speaker 3: You know, it definitely it definitely has an effect. Whether

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Speaker 3: it has the effect that you would want is another matter,

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Speaker 3: but it definitely has some effect.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, if you open up that door, do you

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Speaker 2: open up other doors that maybe you weren't intending to.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say, you know, I've been involved in

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Speaker 3: the occult since I was seventeen, and that's about thirty

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Speaker 3: seven years at this point, if I'm doing the math correctly.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, so I've seen, you know, people up close

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Speaker 3: and from Afar practicing magic, and very often, if not

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Speaker 3: most often, people can run into problems and get very

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Speaker 3: different results to what they were expecting.

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Speaker 2: So, yeah, what drew you to it? You said, since

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Speaker 2: you were seventeen? When drew you to it? Originally?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: So, well, originally, when I was fifteen, I saw a

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Speaker 3: book on astral projection and the elements, the four Elements,

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Speaker 3: and I bought it inst at a local bookstore. I

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Speaker 3: bought it and I tried to do it, and I

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Speaker 3: didn't really understand it. And then later on I developed

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Speaker 3: a little bit of an interest in paganism. But I

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Speaker 3: think I probably just read one book, a book of

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Speaker 3: pagan rituals, and then you know, which are near neopagan

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Speaker 3: sort of Wiccan rituals, modern rituals. And then and then

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Speaker 3: when I was seventeen, some friends of mine said, oh,

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Speaker 3: we've been going to this hippie Sharp and you should,

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Speaker 3: you should come, And then I did. And as I

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Speaker 3: walked in and I realized, oh, this isn't a cult shop.

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Speaker 3: There's two big bookcases of books. So I started I

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Speaker 3: started hanging around there, and at one point I've virtually

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Speaker 3: lived there and spent my days there and evenings there.

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Speaker 3: So it became very involved, and it was a sort

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Speaker 3: of neo pagan scene around that Sharp and the owner

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Speaker 3: of it.

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Speaker 2: I guess, if you think about it, be a cult

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Speaker 2: around history has been around as long as religion itself.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, I suppose some people would even say that

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Speaker 3: it's been around before religion, because you know, you would

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Speaker 3: have sort of tribal shamans performing magical rituals to control

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Speaker 3: spirits or cure people of diseases and so on. But

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Speaker 3: I'm not an anthropologist, so I couldn't say whether religion

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Speaker 3: came before or after that. But certainly occultism in one

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Speaker 3: form or another has been around for in many millennia.

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Speaker 2: So when you take things from you know, the many millennia,

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Speaker 2: the is some of it just you know, let's say,

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Speaker 2: tribes people maybe just taking mushrooms and kind of tripping out,

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Speaker 2: and maybe that doesn't doesn't apply or is there a

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Speaker 2: little bit of actual effectiveness to be gleaned from every tribe,

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Speaker 2: from every type of Uh, I don't know practice that's

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Speaker 2: out there. How do we know what's the stuff that

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Speaker 2: works and what's the stuff that is maybe just traditional

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Speaker 2: and not connecting anything.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good, good question. Yeah, yeah, Well so

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Speaker 3: you know, Rene gained On is a French metaphysician. He

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Speaker 3: founded the school of Traditionalism, which which came out of theosophy,

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Speaker 3: and there's a belief that we're all religions teach this

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Speaker 3: primordial truth, but they've all just received a fragment of it,

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Speaker 3: at least all of the major religions. And you know,

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Speaker 3: they a traditionalist would want to join a traditional Catholic

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Speaker 3: order or become a Sufi Muslim in Egypt or whatever

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Speaker 3: it is, and just do whatever is being done for

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Speaker 3: hundreds of years or more. But I think the problem

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Speaker 3: with that is, you know, things, things stagnate and they

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Speaker 3: kind of lose their essence in a way, and you

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Speaker 3: kind of have to rediscover what the essence of the

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Speaker 3: tradition is, whether you know whether that's desirable or not.

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Speaker 3: To sort of keep rediscovering it and reinventing it. I'm

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Speaker 3: not sure, but that is the case. And yeah, so

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Speaker 3: there's lots and lots of different practices out there, and

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Speaker 3: some of them will kind of lose the essence, so

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Speaker 3: you know, you kind of have to keep rediscovering it

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Speaker 3: rather like hypnosis.

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Speaker 2: Almost like reigniting the flame for it. Right, And we

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Speaker 2: have so many we have so many topics that you've

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Speaker 2: been through, So I kind of want to lock in

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Speaker 2: on a few things tonight in our in our hour

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Speaker 2: and a half that we have together. So one of

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Speaker 2: the things I want to ask you about is can

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Speaker 2: you help us tonight figure out how to navigate a

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Speaker 2: little bit of that for ourselves. So the thing that

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Speaker 2: you talk about actually transcending and transforming the chaosk maybe

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Speaker 2: the baby steps on how to do that where you

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Speaker 2: can kind of feel what's happening and then uh, move

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Speaker 2: the world. Because what it sounds like you're saying is

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Speaker 2: what you hear a lot of people say that if

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Speaker 2: we're if we are living in a simulation of sorts,

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Speaker 2: a matrix of sorts, then how manipulatable is that for

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Speaker 2: our better good or even on a simple simple version

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Speaker 2: of that for your happiness? Where you can see the chaos,

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Speaker 2: but it doesn't it doesn't burn through you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, definitely.

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Speaker 2: So we'll be able to do that as well.

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Speaker 3: Right, yeah, well, give it a go.

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Speaker 2: Giving it a go is what we're all about here

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Speaker 2: on Coast to Coast.

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