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Speaker 1: Welcome to desperately devoted think of us as your favorite

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Speaker 1: neighbors as we chat about life and relationships.

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Speaker 2: All while we revisit the iconic show Desperate Housewives together.

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Speaker 3: I'm Terry Hatcher, I'm Andrea Bowen.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Emerson Tunny.

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Speaker 3: So here we are again, because as we know, sometimes

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Speaker 3: the episode of the week is just so jam packed

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Speaker 3: and chock full of interesting things that we just can't

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Speaker 3: squeeze it all into one episode. So, I know, for

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Speaker 3: this one for episode eighteen. So this major theme popped

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Speaker 3: up to all three of us, which was this kind

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Speaker 3: of age old thing that happens with women, specifically about

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Speaker 3: you know, equating beauty with intelligence or aging with somehow

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Speaker 3: not being beautiful anymore, and all of the ways in

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Speaker 3: which we struggle to be perceived as full people in

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Speaker 3: the world. And this popped out so much. You have Gabrielle,

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Speaker 3: you know, in her storyline she mentioned she has a

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Speaker 3: line to Carlos about how he you know, she he

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Speaker 3: might think that because she's pretty, she's therefore stupid. And

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Speaker 3: then it comes up later when she tells John in

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Speaker 3: that scene like whatever you do, just don't call me beautiful,

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Speaker 3: which was a kind of haunting line for her to say,

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Speaker 3: and Sophie, Susan's mom comes in and has this hang

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Speaker 3: up clearly about aging and wanting to be perceived as

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Speaker 3: Susan's sister and not her mother. And I just think

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Speaker 3: there is so much to really jump into here, and

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Speaker 3: I thought the three of us, being of course three

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Speaker 3: different generations, we might have some really interesting conversations that

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Speaker 3: can come up. So I wanted to talk about beauty

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Speaker 3: standards and how we feel about where we stand today,

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Speaker 3: but certainly how we all felt with the messaging we

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Speaker 3: had in our own individual generation.

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Speaker 2: I am so glad that we were doing this X

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Speaker 2: Y Z because I think beauty standards and I mean

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Speaker 2: obviously continue to be an interesting topic that evolves, I

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Speaker 2: think from a beauty standard perspective. In my generation, at least,

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Speaker 2: I feel like there is much more, thank God of

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Speaker 2: a move away from the kind of like Barbie dimension

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Speaker 2: beauty standard proportions. I even think about in high school,

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Speaker 2: the way a lot of girls that I grew up with,

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Speaker 2: and even myself like, we wore a lot of eyeliner

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Speaker 2: and makeup, and now I feel like there's such a

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Speaker 2: swing toward wearing less makeup or no makeup and kind

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Speaker 2: of more comfortable clothes, and the skinny jeans are out,

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Speaker 2: and I love a mom jean or an even bag

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Speaker 2: ear jean. And I think there's kind of also more

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Speaker 2: integration of androgyny in femininity and kind of incorporating the masculine,

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Speaker 2: and that is a style that I feel very at

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Speaker 2: home and comfortable in, and so I'm really appreciative when

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Speaker 2: I see, you know, high fashion brands like Mew Mew

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Speaker 2: or Prada, or when I see other celebrities out in

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Speaker 2: the public eye like Kendall Jenner or Jennifer Lauren kind

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Speaker 2: of exemplify this more androgynous style. Drew Barrymore, I'm actually

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Speaker 2: wearing the Drew Barrymore sweatshirt that we got when we

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Speaker 2: were on the show promoting this podcast. And I think

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Speaker 2: she is another great example of someone who is kind

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Speaker 2: of pushing to have more embracing definitions of what it

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Speaker 2: means to be a woman and what it means to

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Speaker 2: be feminine in terms of beauty being equated with intelligence.

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Speaker 2: Though this is something that I actually as a young

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Speaker 2: woman working in the industry behind the camera, not as

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Speaker 2: an actor, where obviously there are a lot of different

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Speaker 2: types of beauty standards, but as a writer, I come

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Speaker 2: up against feeling like sometimes I am judged as a

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Speaker 2: more attractive young woman that I am not going to

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Speaker 2: be as intelligent of a writer. And obviously my job

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Speaker 2: is all about my intellect. It has nothing to do

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Speaker 2: with what I look like. And I actually this made

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Speaker 2: me think of a story about two summers ago. I

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Speaker 2: was in London with my mom for the Coraline was

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Speaker 2: celebrating its fifteen year anniversary, and we went to dinner

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Speaker 2: with a lot of filmmakers and people who had been

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Speaker 2: involved in the film, and we had My mom and

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Speaker 2: I had both been kind of made up because there

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Speaker 2: had been a little bit of a red carpet at

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Speaker 2: the exhibit, and I don't really wear makeup like that

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Speaker 2: in my day to day life, but I had, you know,

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Speaker 2: I'd had my makeup done and I had my hair done,

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Speaker 2: and I looked a little bit more glam than I

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Speaker 2: normally do. And we were at lunch and the wife

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Speaker 2: of one of the filmmakers there I was talking to

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Speaker 2: about being a writer and she goes, well, I hope

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Speaker 2: you don't look like this when you go into meetings,

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Speaker 2: because no one will take you seriously.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Wow, And it really stuck with me because it made

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Speaker 2: me feels so kind of small and insecure and was

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Speaker 2: taking honestly in a way that Carlos does with Gabby,

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Speaker 2: taking my looks and implying that no one will take

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Speaker 2: me seriously as a writer, which is my career if

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Speaker 2: I present as more glamorous in certain settings.

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Speaker 1: And it is.

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Speaker 2: It was a very It was really a comment that

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Speaker 2: has stuck with me since then and is something I

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Speaker 2: think about.

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Speaker 1: Well, I you know, I guess I have a lot

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Speaker 1: to say about this. I mean, just you know, being

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Speaker 1: really young, before I was an act or anything. In

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Speaker 1: high school, I clearly remember, in fact, I remember the dress.

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Speaker 1: So I went away the summer of my sophomore year

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Speaker 1: at high school with like no breast, and I came

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Speaker 1: back as a junior with little, like with you know,

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Speaker 1: size B breast.

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Speaker 2: So they will but she says little, because I'm weren't

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Speaker 2: they weren't little?

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Speaker 1: No. I was gonna say, yeah, they I said little,

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Speaker 1: But they weren't. They were like a be a bee,

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Speaker 1: a noticeable, physical, noticeable change. And I had this yellow

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Speaker 1: kind of polyester dress from the eighties and and all

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Speaker 1: the boys. All the seniors suddenly noticed me like I suddenly,

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Speaker 1: and I felt horrible about it because I couldn't make

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Speaker 1: sense of why did nobody talk to me last year,

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Speaker 1: and now that I have breasts, everybody seems to be interested.

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Speaker 1: And it made me feel really ashamed of my breast.

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Speaker 1: I didn't like my breasts. I didn't I didn't want

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Speaker 1: to be known for that. Ironically, I know, I was like,

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Speaker 1: wait a second, yeah, wait a second. Cut to my

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Speaker 1: career and I would say, you know, it's interesting. I've

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Speaker 1: actually heard Pamela Anderson talk a little bit about this,

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Speaker 1: and you know, we all know that she's had her

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Speaker 1: you know, reinvention of herself and her whole career, and

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Speaker 1: a big part of that has been her exposing her

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Speaker 1: face literally with no makeup, but also like her persona is,

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Speaker 1: just to be who she is. And I really applaud

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Speaker 1: what she's talked about that allowing herself to be who

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Speaker 1: she is kind of for the first time in her life.

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Speaker 3: And blaming her beauty and her body as her And.

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Speaker 1: I definitely feel that, you know, most I guess I

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Speaker 1: can just speak for myself. I never thought I was beautiful,

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Speaker 1: Like I know, there are people who rightfully sow and

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Speaker 1: I kind of wish I had this confidence who have

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Speaker 1: looked in the mirror of their whole lives and I'm

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Speaker 1: not even saying it like with arrogance, they've just looked

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Speaker 1: in the mirror and they've been like, I'm beautiful. I'm

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Speaker 1: a model, or I'm an actor, I'm a beautiful person,

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Speaker 1: and I go through the world and you know, I'm beautiful.

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Speaker 1: I never felt that way about myself, which I you know,

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Speaker 1: it's is a regret. I mean, I'm not saying that

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Speaker 1: there's nothing heroic about that. It's just my personal self

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Speaker 1: esteem issues. I never felt that way, but the world,

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Speaker 1: especially in my professional world, reflected on me that I

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Speaker 1: was beautiful and you know, on the cover of magazines

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Speaker 1: or was the sexiest woman in whatever how long you know, blah.

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Speaker 2: The world that was that headline.

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Speaker 1: Okay, this the world, right, So something I never asked

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Speaker 1: to be reflected at me and honestly wasn't particularly comfortable with.

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Speaker 1: Then as I age got taken away from me, like

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Speaker 1: you're not beautiful anymore. Now you're just old. Now you're

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Speaker 1: just didn't you know, you didn't age well whatever that means,

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Speaker 1: Like like I haven't done it right. So there's this

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Speaker 1: whole narrative about the exterior of me that I was

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Speaker 1: never a part of, but I've had to live with.

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Speaker 1: And it didn't include at all my intellect or my

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Speaker 1: talent or what I might have potentially been capable of.

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Speaker 1: And it is why my number one favorite thing about

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Speaker 1: being sixty is that I feel like, for the first

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Speaker 1: time in my life, people are going to have to

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Speaker 1: look at me and deal with me and judge me

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Speaker 1: for who I am and not what I look like,

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Speaker 1: and that I don't know if it's going to work

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Speaker 1: in my favor or not. I don't know if I'll

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Speaker 1: get acting jobs that I like. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: I'll make any money. I don't know what the result

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Speaker 1: is going to be. But what I do know is

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Speaker 1: that the person I am when I walk into a

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Speaker 1: room and I audition or I have a meeting with somebody,

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Speaker 1: it is much less concerned with what the exterior of

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Speaker 1: my face and body look like.

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Speaker 3: That has to probably feel very freeing.

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Speaker 1: I feel like it's freeing. Like I said, it may

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Speaker 1: not work, you know, may nobody may be interested in

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Speaker 1: me while I'm not quote unquote useful and beautiful, but

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Speaker 1: I hope that they are because I think that I

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Speaker 1: have a lot to offer. I think I have more

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Speaker 1: to offer. I think I've more offered of course, yeah

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Speaker 1: when I was younger.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, and you're absolutely beautiful. You are very incredibly beautiful,

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Speaker 3: always have been, always will be. I think that's my opinion.

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Speaker 3: But I think I just feel like there's there's we

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Speaker 3: could talk about this forever. I'm sure it will come

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Speaker 3: up in future episodes as well, because of course it's

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Speaker 3: always relevant the idea, especially when you.

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Speaker 1: Were the show had five women who were all pretty

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Speaker 1: as their leads.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, exactly, And and I just think, like I remember,

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Speaker 3: I just I was thinking a lot about how this

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Speaker 3: show premiered in two thousand and four, and another show

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Speaker 3: that was on at this time in two thousand and

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Speaker 3: four was a reality show called The Swan. Do you

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Speaker 3: guys remember this show at all?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 2: What is this? Oh? Enlighten us reality Queen?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, so I, oh my gosh, I don't deserve

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Speaker 3: that title, but I will say The Swan. I'm really

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Speaker 3: glad that you guys don't remember this or don't know

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Speaker 3: about it, because your jaws are going to hit the floor.

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Speaker 3: The Swan was a reality show that took women who

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Speaker 3: felt like they were not beautiful because society has told

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Speaker 3: them they're not beautiful, just you know, regular regular women

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Speaker 3: out in the world, not actresses, not models, just women.

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Speaker 3: And then they incorporated them getting plastic surgery over the

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Speaker 3: course of several months, and then then they all competed

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Speaker 3: against each other in a beauty pageant. What the fuck

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Speaker 3: exactly they are? Jaw show. That show was on the

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Speaker 3: air in two thousand and fourteen year old bab I know,

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Speaker 3: I know, and as a fourteen year old girl, I

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Speaker 3: remember watching this show and being so horrified that not

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Speaker 3: only was the messaging like change your physical appearance through surgery,

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Speaker 3: which again like, of course if you want to, and

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Speaker 3: you can, like whatever, do what you want to be happy,

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Speaker 3: but it wasn't that. It was them as a show

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Speaker 3: producing this saying you come on the show, We're going

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Speaker 3: to change your appearance, and then we're gonna make you

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Speaker 3: compete against each other. I'm like, so sad for the

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Speaker 3: wh I know. So I think that show got two

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Speaker 3: seasons as well. So I like to think that we've

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Speaker 3: come a long way. I do think we're in an

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Speaker 3: interesting time now where there's a little bit of a

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Speaker 3: homogenized look.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, between ozempic and eyelifts. I like ozempic

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Speaker 2: and eyelifts. Literally, I feel like everyone in Hollywood suddenly

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Speaker 2: looks the same again in the last two years. I

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Speaker 2: don't Yeah, I don't love it.

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Speaker 1: No, I don't love it either, But it is interesting

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Speaker 1: that you kind of have these two lanes. You've got,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm gonna call it the Pamela Anderson lane

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Speaker 1: because I think she deserves, you know, the street title.

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Speaker 1: And then you've got still what is you know, the

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Speaker 1: well the Ozempic I Live lane, you know, and plenty

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Speaker 1: of celebrities out there doubling down on that they're skinnier

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Speaker 1: than ever.

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Speaker 2: I have been pretty disappointed to see some actors now

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to say like celebrities, because I think

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Speaker 2: that is a difference, but some really incredible actors whose

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Speaker 2: work I love and who I think have really unique looks.

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Speaker 2: I would say in the last year, I don't want

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Speaker 2: to say fall into the trap, because I'm not trying

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Speaker 2: to have judgment about whatever you want to do that

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Speaker 2: makes you happy, but choose to go down the lane

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Speaker 2: of obviously altering things on their face to look more

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Speaker 2: homogenized with other celebrities who maybe aren't actually actors. And

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Speaker 2: I think, as an artist and as a writer who

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Speaker 2: aspires to write scripts that I imagine actors embodying, there is

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Speaker 2: a loss. There's actually kind of a great loss for

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Speaker 2: me of some people I grew up really idolizing, who

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Speaker 2: have changed some things about themselves and I think look

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Speaker 2: less like real people.

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Speaker 1: Well, I wonder my parting words I want, you know,

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Speaker 1: I wonder who to blame, and I I guess we'll

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Speaker 1: ultimately like have to blame ourselves. I mean, I sometimes

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Speaker 1: do think that like we've created our own monster. You know.

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Speaker 1: Uh it's you know, with our purchases, with you know,

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Speaker 1: what we tune into, like you know, we make things

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Speaker 1: popular and then we create the monster. So I think

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Speaker 1: we we have the power that if if if you

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Speaker 1: know it isn't what you want, don't buy it, you know,

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Speaker 1: stop consuming it, stop consuming it. I do wonder if

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Speaker 1: like you know, all the tuning, all the all the filters,

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Speaker 1: like if it made people it's brain changed and then

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Speaker 1: they looked in the mirror and went like, oh I

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Speaker 1: need a fill for my face, And I'm so used

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Speaker 1: to looking at myself with the filter. Now it don't

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Speaker 1: look like like I. But again, we've done it to ourselves.

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Speaker 1: You know, we've done it to ourselves, and it's sad.

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Speaker 1: So because I'm here to say, we're all beautiful for

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Speaker 1: who we are and whatever that means to be beautiful.

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Speaker 1: I think being beautiful is about being a good person.

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Speaker 1: I hope that's what counts.

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Speaker 3: I agree, I am all right. Well, thanks for chatting

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Speaker 3: about this.

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Speaker 1: I know there's more. I feel like we go on.

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Speaker 1: We'll have to, We'll have to do this one again.

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Speaker 1: Let us know what you think, let us know, hope

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Speaker 1: we should keep talking about inner beauty and outer beauty.

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Speaker 2: And if you have things to add, if you have

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Speaker 2: perspectives to add, right to us. We'll pick it up

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Speaker 2: in our next X y Z about beauty. Yes we will, okay,

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Speaker 2: because we are desperately devoted to you.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely see next week five