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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is matt

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Speaker 2: Our Powell Nol is still on an adventure, but will

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Speaker 2: be returning shortly.

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Speaker 3: They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 3: guest super producer. You know him, you love them. It's

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Speaker 3: Max the freight Train Williams. Most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 3: You are here, and that makes this the stuff they

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Speaker 3: don't want you to know. We're diving back into something

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Speaker 3: that has fascinated both of us and hopefully you. Fellow

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Speaker 3: conspiracy realist played along at Home nearly seven years after

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Speaker 3: his death. Charles Mills Manson remains one of America because

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Speaker 3: most well known Madmen cult leader would be music star,

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Speaker 3: best known not for his association with the Beach Boys.

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Speaker 2: Correct his music, by the way, I was kind of

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Speaker 2: rocking some of it while we were doing research this week,

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Speaker 2: and I don't hate it, man. Yeah, I mean I

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Speaker 2: don't love it, but I don't hate it. I kind

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Speaker 2: of feel what he was doing. It's tough.

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Speaker 3: To make it in the world of entertainment. And that's

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Speaker 3: you know, that applies to Charles Manson as well as

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Speaker 3: everybody else, all the independent musicians in the crowd this evening.

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Speaker 3: Manson is best known for running a cult loosely called

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Speaker 3: the Family than the Manson Family in the late nineteen

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Speaker 3: sixties for relatively short period of time. They are known

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Speaker 3: to have committed at least nine murders in California, and

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Speaker 3: decades later, people still wonder whether there's more to the story.

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Speaker 3: So our question is this, and hear us out. Could

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Speaker 3: Charles Manson have been connected to the CIA?

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Speaker 2: Definitely, We'll be right back.

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Speaker 3: Here are the facts. In previous episodes, we explored Manson's

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Speaker 3: life in depth. He had a really tragic, troubled childhood.

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Speaker 3: We looked at his early life, which was a lot

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Speaker 3: of juvie and prison time, up to his rise as

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Speaker 3: a cult leader when he was in his early thirties

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Speaker 3: and his messiotic ambition to rule the world literally all

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Speaker 3: the way to his conviction his imprisonment. I think it's

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Speaker 3: a story most Americans know on at least some level, right,

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Speaker 3: Like everybody has heard the name.

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Speaker 2: Oh, for sure. There are all kinds of iconic interviews

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Speaker 2: that went out there, especially if you were a kid,

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Speaker 2: I don't know coming of age in the nineties. There

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Speaker 2: was a nineteen ninety three interview with Diane Sawyer that

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Speaker 2: really like, let you kind of feel the character of

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Speaker 2: Charles Manson.

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Speaker 3: I roll the Nichols The game is Mine.

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Speaker 2: Oh dude, I broke no law. I didn't step out

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Speaker 2: aligne with God. I didn't step out alive with the law.

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Speaker 3: I bounced a few checks.

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Speaker 2: I told those people the same thing that the United

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Speaker 2: States President would tell them. The only way that you

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Speaker 2: can dispense Saint life and death is you have to

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Speaker 2: be willing to give yourself to that cause. You have

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Speaker 2: to fight a revolution. You can't do anything unless you can.

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Speaker 2: And he just kind of goes on and on and on.

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Speaker 3: My favorite's probably the non verbal thing he does when

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Speaker 3: they say who are you? And he does the quick

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Speaker 3: cavalcade of character acting and emoting.

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Speaker 2: Well and then lyrics to songs. He's often throwing in lyrics,

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Speaker 2: and I think it's really important to when you're thinking

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Speaker 2: about this person as we're going through their life. That

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Speaker 2: thing you mentioned Ben that he spent a lot of

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Speaker 2: his time in juvenile detention and then in prison, and

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Speaker 2: he sounds to me a lot like interactions that that

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Speaker 2: our team had with Wayne Williams, where it's somebody who

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Speaker 2: is very good at saying something to kind of throw

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Speaker 2: you off of whatever the question is or the line

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Speaker 2: that you want to be talking about, and saying something

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Speaker 2: to kind of interrupt that and then take you on

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Speaker 2: a completely different direction and take you down that line

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Speaker 2: far enough to where you almost if you're not really

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Speaker 2: paying attention or taking notes, you might have even forgot

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Speaker 2: what you were talking about in the first place. It

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Speaker 2: brings to me, I don't know if sociopathy is correct,

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Speaker 2: but maybe just manipulation tactics are really heavy with this person.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, with both of them, and that team MAT's referring to, folks,

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Speaker 3: is the production with Tenderfoot.

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Speaker 2: Yeah mostly Yeah, Alex and Paine and Donald and myself

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Speaker 2: and a bunch of other people. But just I've interacted

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Speaker 2: with somebody like that, I guess is what I mean

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Speaker 2: to say, And you really pick up on it when

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Speaker 2: you watch these iconic interviews with him. So let's jump

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Speaker 2: in and let's learn about who this person was early

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Speaker 2: on again.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so quick and dirty recap, folks, you probably if

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Speaker 3: you live in the US, you probably have heard of

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Speaker 3: Charles Manson, even if you were born far after those

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Speaker 3: horrific events in the late sixties early seventies. For a

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Speaker 3: quick and dirty recap, I'd like us look at the timeline.

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Speaker 3: Charles Manson is born November twelfth, nineteen thirty four, in Cincinnati, Ohio.

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Speaker 3: His mother is sixteen at the time. He never knew

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Speaker 3: his father, and as far as we know, I'd never

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Speaker 3: had any contact with him throughout his life. When he

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Speaker 3: was still very young, his mother is convicted and imprisoned

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Speaker 3: for armed robbery, so he gets sent to live in

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Speaker 3: West Virginia with some relatives nouns and an uncle. And

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Speaker 3: from an early age he's on the wrong side of

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Speaker 3: the law, Like mentioned earlier, beginning at just nine years old,

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Speaker 3: he starts being in and out a juvie and then

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Speaker 3: later prison for a lot of what we might call

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Speaker 3: miscre inactivity or small time crime. There is just to

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Speaker 3: be very clear, it is almost certain that he was

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Speaker 3: sexually assaulted in the system. He would later, as we know,

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Speaker 3: assault other people. If we fast forward, it's nineteen sixty seven,

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Speaker 3: he is thirty two years old. He's released from California's

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Speaker 3: Terminal Island Prison and from there he goes to San Francisco.

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Speaker 3: He has been incarcerated roughly half his life at this time,

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Speaker 3: and the hippie movement is in full swing. There are

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Speaker 3: tons of disillusioned, often younger people, kind of drifting, searching

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Speaker 3: for meaning or a cause. This is fertile soil for

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Speaker 3: a man with the ambitions of Charles Manson.

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Speaker 2: It is fertile soil. And it's there's a reason for

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Speaker 2: all of that disillusionment, right. I mean, we've talked about

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Speaker 2: the history of that time, and you know, Vietnam War

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Speaker 2: and what was going on, and the disillusionment in general

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Speaker 2: of that Americans were having with the system, right that

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Speaker 2: just everybody was kind of like, oh wow, wait a minute,

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Speaker 2: we can kind of see the man behind the curtain here,

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Speaker 2: and it doesn't feel good to know that that's what

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Speaker 2: we're doing and kind of why we're doing it. And

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Speaker 2: I don't want to lose that fact that he said.

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Speaker 2: Ben at nine years old, he started going into the system,

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Speaker 2: like thinking about what that does to an individual's mind,

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Speaker 2: what the world is, how it functions, what structures are like,

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Speaker 2: what time even is like if you're in the system

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Speaker 2: that often, and especially from that age, it's and then

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Speaker 2: and then to come out and then I guess, find

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Speaker 2: a group of people somehow that I don't know, I

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Speaker 2: don't know how to put it. Ben, to find a

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Speaker 2: group of people that is somewhat like minded, right as

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Speaker 2: you said, within this movement, the hippie movement, and then

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Speaker 2: to be I don't know, he has this charisma about him.

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Speaker 2: I keep trying to figure out how he really developed

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Speaker 2: that charisma other than just somewhat manipulating people as he's

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Speaker 2: going through the system.

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Speaker 3: Would say it's a mater of survival, probably given his

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Speaker 3: formative years spent in such a hostile environment. One learns

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Speaker 3: to be intensely observant, and one learns how to push

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Speaker 3: the right psychological levers in a way that makes your

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Speaker 3: environment hopefully a little less hostile. However, you would understand

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Speaker 3: that right and.

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Speaker 2: Sot it, so that's like people and well mostly manipulating

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Speaker 2: people so that the entirety of your surroundings are better

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Speaker 2: for you, I guess.

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Speaker 3: I guess. Another thing to add in here is that

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Speaker 3: he did not have very much at all in the

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Speaker 3: way of formal education. But education and intelligence are two

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Speaker 3: different things you can never see the inside of a

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Speaker 3: classroom for the entirety of your life and still be

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Speaker 3: quite a wise person. And so his intellectual acumen, we

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Speaker 3: could speculate, was as a matter of survival, a necessity

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Speaker 3: solely centered on escaping a hostile environment, dodging maybe consequences

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Speaker 3: of actions. And because of this this keen almost supernatural

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Speaker 3: observational ability and manipulative capacity. The official narrative is that

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Speaker 3: he used this to attract a group of young, kind

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Speaker 3: of drifting people that we would call hippies, and you know,

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Speaker 3: like the the burnouts and the washed, washed aways of

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Speaker 3: American society. This was very common in this time because

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Speaker 3: there were so many protest movements, there were so many

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Speaker 3: anti war movements, movements for racial equality or civil rights

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Speaker 3: or even racial supremacy, and this in this milieu, we

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Speaker 3: see that he gets a group of people. They're a

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Speaker 3: small group at first, but they're very devoted. They start

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Speaker 3: to get its street name, they're becoming a religious commune.

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Speaker 3: They're starting to be called, loosely, the family. And if

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Speaker 3: they had in the beginning a mission statement, it was

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Speaker 3: a cult of personality centered around Manson, the idea being

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Speaker 3: that we will study and apply this guy's spiritual or

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Speaker 3: even religious teachings. And the best way to describe those

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Speaker 3: is kind of like it's similar to scientology in that

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Speaker 3: it's a mix of ideas called from science fiction, from

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Speaker 3: readings of the occult, from fringe psychological theories.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you listen to his interviews, you can

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Speaker 2: hear him peppering in stuff. Right, he's mentioning Hinduism and karma,

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Speaker 2: then he's talking about Japanese culture and philosophy. Then he

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Speaker 2: jumps over to the Bible and starts talking about God

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Speaker 2: and teachings of Jesus. It's really interesting the way he's

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Speaker 2: as you said, you said, a hodgepodge like a It

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Speaker 2: is that, right, And I feel like there's so many

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Speaker 2: cults that kind of do that. It reminds me a

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Speaker 2: lot of the Unitarian Universalist Church and my grandfather went to,

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Speaker 2: where it's not it's more about the philosophies behind the

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Speaker 2: meaning of certain things and then putting those meanings together

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Speaker 2: into one, you know, all encompassing kind of theory of

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Speaker 2: existence and life and death and all of that. Except

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Speaker 2: his it feels like he's cherry picking little things in

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Speaker 2: the moment to apply to like what to apply to

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Speaker 2: what he's talking about in the moment.

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Speaker 3: I don't know. It's very strange, and he has He's

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Speaker 3: doing something that the protagonist of cults of personalities typically do,

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Speaker 3: from televangelist to MLM types, even business tycoons. The idea

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Speaker 3: is that you get someone in person and you are

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Speaker 3: instantly reacting to what they're saying, and you're offering propositions

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Speaker 3: or leads, whether verbally or simply with intonation and physically,

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Speaker 3: and then as those people are responding, you start to

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Speaker 3: isolate and adjust for the reactions that you want. And

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Speaker 3: some people do this much better than others. Some people

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Speaker 3: are trained to do this, some people have that intuitive

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Speaker 3: nec or maybe in Manson's case, again, you could argue

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Speaker 3: had to develop such a skill or set of skills

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Speaker 3: as a matter of survival.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, or weaponized it as a job, right, I mean,

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Speaker 2: think about what spies have to do. It's very similar.

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Speaker 3: And this initially this met with great success where he

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Speaker 3: was part of this CMB seeing crowd, you know, and

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Speaker 3: met celebrities like Brian Wilson and try to pursue a

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Speaker 3: career in music, and over time is unfortunately a not

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Speaker 3: uncommon thing with cults of personality. Over time, his group

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Speaker 3: grew more insular, more hostile, more combative, more militant, as

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Speaker 3: they were aiming increasingly towards some apocalyptic end point. And

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Speaker 3: that's where you get the most widely accepted narrative, popularized

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Speaker 3: by the book Helter Skelter, written by Vincent Boligosi, says, Look,

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Speaker 3: here's why these murders occurred. Manson was convinced the US

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Speaker 3: would be ground zero for a civilization ending race war,

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Speaker 3: and Manson and his followers would hide away underground, and

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Speaker 3: then after all the s hit the f he and

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Speaker 3: his followers would emerge from the social wreckage and they

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Speaker 3: would rain over the smoking ruins whatever was left.

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Speaker 2: Jeez, sounds like a pretty common thing nowadays. Again, if

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Speaker 2: we're going in the science fiction realm, which is where

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Speaker 2: mads And pulled a lot of his ideas from, it

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Speaker 2: feels like feels like fallout, feels like a lot of

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Speaker 2: these things we've been talking about recently. It feels like Zuckerberg's,

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Speaker 2: you know, the rumors of his twenty five million dollar

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Speaker 2: hideaway thing that he was building his bunker. Somebody that

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Speaker 2: wants to emerge from the wreckage and control stuff.

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Speaker 3: It is.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, it's pretty grandiose for a guy in

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Speaker 2: a group of lovable miscreants hanging out on a farm.

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Speaker 3: People largely ranch rather yeah, people largely orphaned by mainstream

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Speaker 3: American society. You know what I mean. You want an answer,

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Speaker 3: You want to cause, you want something. Unless you're a Manson,

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Speaker 3: you want something bigger than yourself. And so they ran

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Speaker 3: into a problem that happens with a lot of apocalyptic cults.

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Speaker 3: The disaster they foresee is taking just too long to

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Speaker 3: get here. You know, Manson was at least smart enough

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Speaker 3: to not predict a specific date, or maybe he was

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Speaker 3: just cooking live doing some jazz. But eventual he decided

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Speaker 3: the race war took too long to ignite, this again

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Speaker 3: according to the popular narrative, and so he decided the

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Speaker 3: family would take action to kickstart the conflict. He denies this.

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Speaker 3: He denies that he or he's dead. He denied that

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Speaker 3: he ordered his followers to go commit murders and try

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Speaker 3: to frame the black population of California. Instead, he says

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Speaker 3: he talked in hypotheticals like you know what I would

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Speaker 3: do if it were me doing this?

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Speaker 2: Yep, I would leave and.

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Speaker 3: I think one of that we were talking about this

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Speaker 3: off air. One of the most oft repeated quotes is

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Speaker 3: he says, I would leave something witchy behind.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, if you know, if you were going to do

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Speaker 2: something like that, let the world know you were there

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Speaker 2: if you're going to do it. The way he describes

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Speaker 2: it to Diane Sawyer after she kind of breaks through

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Speaker 2: to him for a moment, is that I needed money

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Speaker 2: to get my brother out of jail. I didn't have money,

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Speaker 2: but I had these people around me. But I'm not

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Speaker 2: a violent person, so I would never do anything. I

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Speaker 2: never do anything like that. What I said was, we

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Speaker 2: need that money. We got to get that money. So

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Speaker 2: basically talked around doing something violent, right, That's exactly what

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Speaker 2: we're describing. Talked around getting money by doing something violent.

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Speaker 2: And his followers went and did that thing.

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Speaker 3: And at this point in the deterioration of the organization,

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Speaker 3: I think it's mission critical to note that the followers

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Speaker 3: had already had their egos heavily damaged and their personalities eroded,

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Speaker 3: so to them. Similar to the way the Puritans of

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Speaker 3: old did not practice metaphor, they thought things in the

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Speaker 3: Bible were literal, these folks were not were possibly no

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Speaker 3: longer capable of clocking metaphor or hypothesis or simile, so

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Speaker 3: they may have just thought he said, yeah, go do it,

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Speaker 3: follow in my footsteps, and and.

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Speaker 2: They were coming down off an LSD trip, right, That

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Speaker 2: was one of the big points of contention. They weren't

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Speaker 2: currently on LSD or something like that when the murders

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Speaker 2: took place, at least according to Manson. According to some

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Speaker 2: of the people who were put on the stand during

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Speaker 2: the trial, but they were on other drugs at the time.

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Speaker 2: But who knows what he was saying to them while

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Speaker 2: they were under the effects of LSD or some other

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Speaker 2: psychotropic substance.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's why I wanted to point out, like, the

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Speaker 3: thing that we're missing when we just look at that

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Speaker 3: something witchy quote is that that is a one episode

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Speaker 3: in a series of escalating conversations, a culmination perhaps. So

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Speaker 3: he may not have said, you know, the way to

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Speaker 3: get right with the world is to follow in my

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Speaker 3: footsteps and do exactly what you think I would do

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Speaker 3: in that discrete conversation, but earlier, for months, he had

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Speaker 3: probably been saying something very much like that, because that

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Speaker 3: is how colts work any case, and we can play

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Speaker 3: a clip from Manson later, one of my favorite.

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Speaker 2: But the whole point there have been was that just

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Speaker 2: to bring an LSD into that or this concept of

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Speaker 2: using LSD as part of whatever that thing is, that

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Speaker 2: manipulation technique that gets people to think a certain way

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Speaker 2: at certain times.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's some good foreshadowing. We know whatever specifics of

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Speaker 3: conversation and brainwashing maybe lost to history, we do know

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Speaker 3: that in nineteen sixty nine, the Manson family carried out

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Speaker 3: multiple murders odd Manson's orders. That's the legal opinion of

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Speaker 3: the United States. That's what they concluded, of course, because

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Speaker 3: this country worshiped celebrities. The most well known murder is

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Speaker 3: Sharon Tate, who is the wife of director and still

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Speaker 3: criminal on the run, Roman Polanski, currently located in France.

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Speaker 3: Tate was killed in our Los Angeles home. Three other

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Speaker 3: people were killed. This was a mass murder. There were

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Speaker 3: other murders as well, and after being apprehended, the members

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Speaker 3: of the Manson family and Manson himself gone trial in

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Speaker 3: nineteen seventy captures the imagination. This is up there with

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Speaker 3: Truman capodies in cold blood in terms of the level

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Speaker 3: of public interest in what we call true crime. Today,

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Speaker 3: he's found guilty. In seventy one, he sentenced to death,

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Speaker 3: but fortune favors him, you could say, because the very

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Speaker 3: next year, California abolishes the death penalty. So Manson goes

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Speaker 3: from an appointment with execution to the much slower death

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Speaker 3: penalty of life in prison.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he just turns into crazy. Uncle Charles says whatever's

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Speaker 2: on his mind to everybody that's around him in prison.

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Speaker 2: Correspondent in perpetuity, at least until his death.

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Speaker 3: Oh yes, yeah, he when he dies in twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 3: He has been technically eligible for paroles since nineteen seventy eight,

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Speaker 3: and he keeps coming up to the parole board and

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Speaker 3: he keeps beat me here, he keeps saying crazy, and

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Speaker 3: so they obviously are not going to let this guy out.

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Speaker 3: He expresses no remorse, He denies anything he did. He

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Speaker 3: dies of cardiac arrest due to complications from colon cancer.

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Speaker 3: The world begins to move on, you know, the world

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Speaker 3: is ending for someone every day, and people across the

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Speaker 3: US and later the world are still struggling with disturbing questions.

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Speaker 3: How did his cults get so far when others just

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Speaker 3: you know, collapse or make an ill fated Vegan co op.

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Speaker 3: Why did it seem like there was more to this story?

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Speaker 3: Did he have additional associations, influence, maybe assistants that could

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Speaker 3: explain how things got this far? What if the story

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Speaker 3: of a race war? What if it was merely a narrative?

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Speaker 3: What if it's not the whole truth? And if he

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Speaker 3: did have help, who could it have been?

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Speaker 2: Why?

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Speaker 3: Like, who could be powerful enough to keep their association

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Speaker 3: with Manson hidden?

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah? And why would they do that? Why would

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Speaker 2: they want to make the hippie movement look evil and

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Speaker 2: violent and cruel?

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Speaker 3: What if he had some friends in the CIA? Will

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Speaker 3: pause for a word from our sponsor. Here's where it

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Speaker 3: gets crazy, all right, CIA, don't come for us. I'm

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Speaker 3: just going to put that out there. We're taught. There's

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Speaker 3: a little bit of a stuff there once. You know,

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Speaker 3: book Club. There's a book that came out in twenty

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Speaker 3: nineteen that Matt I think captured our attention.

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Speaker 2: Oh yes. It is titled Chaos, Charles Manson, the CIA

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Speaker 2: and the Secret History of the Sixties. It's written by

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Speaker 2: this guy named Tom O'Neill. And then it says and

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Speaker 2: Dan Pipe and bring which is I don't know just

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Speaker 2: an co author, I suppose. But this thing is fascinating.

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Speaker 2: We both remembered when it came out in twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 2: it was reviewed by everybody from Rolling Stone to the CIA,

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Speaker 2: itself a pretty good read. Ben, got to be honest

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Speaker 2: with you, I haven't gotten through the entirety of it

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Speaker 2: because I don't have I never got a physical copy

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Speaker 2: of the book. But I've read so many reviews of

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Speaker 2: it and spoken with people about it. I feel pretty

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Speaker 2: good talking about it. But Ben, did you read the

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Speaker 2: whole thing? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: It's great. I actually I reread several parts of it

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Speaker 3: for this episode, because it's very dense and part of

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Speaker 3: the in terms of information. The reason we have to understand.

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Speaker 3: The reason it's so dense goes back to the origin story,

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Speaker 3: because even this book Chaos has its own strange provenance.

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Speaker 3: Flash of memory back there. It's nineteen ninety nine. There's

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Speaker 3: a guy named Tom O'Neil.

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Speaker 2: That's a great year. The Matrix came out this.

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Speaker 3: Year and people were partying per Prince's instruction, Different cult,

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Speaker 3: different episode. Tom O'Neill at this time is an entertainment

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Speaker 3: reporter and he gets a job with a film magazine

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Speaker 3: named Premiere. They give him an assignment. So they say,

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Speaker 3: we're going to give you three months ninety days. We

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Speaker 3: want you to write about the Tate LaBianca murders of

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Speaker 3: the Manson family and the larger context of their effect

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Speaker 3: on what we call Hollywood. So he misses the deadline.

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Speaker 3: Oh no, because he gets very involved. He's quite conscientious

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Speaker 3: and a diligent journalist, and he continues to investigate the

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Speaker 3: murders after that three month assignment. After that deadline passes,

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Speaker 3: his three month tour turns into twenty years in the making,

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Speaker 3: hundreds of interviews, previously unknown stuff law enforcement arguably missed.

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Speaker 3: He has falling out with several publishers about getting the

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Speaker 3: book because he's not quite done yet. He has decades

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Speaker 3: and decades of research because he is increasingly convinced something

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Speaker 3: doesn't add up. In the end result of all this

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Speaker 3: is the book Chaos amazing. I guess we should we

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Speaker 3: should at least mention what chaos is. Right, He's not

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Speaker 3: just talking about the general kerfuffle that is Hollywood.

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Speaker 2: Oh sure, chaos or what is this, MH. Chaos. It's

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Speaker 2: a CIA program that was going to target American citizens

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Speaker 2: from nineteen sixty seven to seventy four meant to ferret

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Speaker 2: out possible foreign influence on public activism and protest movements.

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Speaker 2: So infiltration of activist groups interesting. We know, that's something

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Speaker 2: that has been of interest to both the CIA and

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Speaker 2: the FBI for a long time. These outside agitators or

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Speaker 2: they have a bunch of different words for them, but

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Speaker 2: foreign influence, particularly on groups like the Black Panther Party

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Speaker 2: for self defense, This has been in their purview and

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Speaker 2: interest for a long, long, long long time.

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Speaker 3: Also, go and tall prone never ended.

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Speaker 2: Oh exactly, it's still going on right now. Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: it's strong, just really quickly. I have met people like

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Speaker 2: Tom O'Neil before who have started, do you like, dip

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Speaker 2: their toes into one of these topics or individuals that

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Speaker 2: is in themselves a rabbit hole that is so deep

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Speaker 2: you cannot see the bottom of it, particularly when looking

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Speaker 2: into the Zodiac Killer. The people that I met through

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Speaker 2: that research who are convinced, like Ted Kaczynski is the

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Speaker 2: actual Zodiac Killer and then spent ten twenty years going

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Speaker 2: down that rabbit hole to try and prove this thing

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Speaker 2: that they believe in their heart so fully. I wonder

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Speaker 2: how much of that it feels like Tom experienced something

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Speaker 2: like that when he really delved into Charles Manson in

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Speaker 2: some of these connections.

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Speaker 3: All right, the concept of confirmation bias.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well it's so strong. We'll keep you going and

425
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Speaker 2: pushing and pushing and pushing because there might be that

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Speaker 2: one thing that proves all.

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Speaker 3: Of this right. There might be a smoking gun, definitely,

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Speaker 3: especially when you smell the powder and the gun oil

429
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Speaker 3: just around the corner. So he has you know, I

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Speaker 3: will say in defensive Tom O'Neil, and we haven't spoken

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Speaker 3: with him, but you can hear him at length and

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Speaker 3: some other podcasts and interviews. He had a piece with

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Speaker 3: Joe Rogan not too many years ago, I think when

434
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 3: the book first came out. But one thing I will say,

435
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,920
Speaker 3: I can't speak highly enough about Tom O'Neill is, despite

436
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 3: the fact that some people call his exploration controversial or inconclusive,

437
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 3: he is very honest. He's a guy, he's a man

438
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,479
Speaker 3: of integrity. He's very honest when he says, well, this

439
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:51,919
Speaker 3: was a dead end, but I had to look into that,

440
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,119
Speaker 3: and I respect, I respect when that happens. You know,

441
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,679
Speaker 3: maybe it's not super sexy for everyone, but it's the

442
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,679
Speaker 3: kind of work that you have to do, and he

443
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 3: asked a reasonable question. Right, Yeah, he does get rabbit

444
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 3: holed by his own admission.

445
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 2: Well, and I don't mean anything like bad by that.

446
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 2: I just mean it's a it's an easy thing to

447
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 2: get sucked into when it's this fascinating, that's all. I mean.

448
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 2: No shade to talk.

449
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 3: Oh, I don't think we're throwing the shade. I was

450
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 3: just going to say that he gets to a question

451
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 3: I think is pretty reasonable, and even the CIA themselves

452
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 3: admits this a reasonable question. His question kind of starts,

453
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 3: why on earth would a government institution be involved with

454
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 3: something as unclean as manson? Make it make sense, as

455
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 3: the Internet says. To answer that, we've got to look

456
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,640
Speaker 3: at the historical context. The CIA, the FBI, they were

457
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 3: definitely up the hijinks on domestic soil at this time.

458
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 3: They were often in partnership with medical institutions, with academia,

459
00:27:56,040 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 3: and with organized crime. Those three genres of partnership, you

460
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,439
Speaker 3: could argue, continue today in one form or another, and

461
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 3: the American public had no clue, They had no idea

462
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 3: what was happening. They probably the United States almost never

463
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 3: learned about things like MK ultra. The only reason we

464
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 3: know about mk Ultra is because someone dropped the ball

465
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 3: and forgot to destroy all of the records. They probably

466
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,199
Speaker 3: destroyed most of the records, they just didn't get to

467
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 3: all of them, so we don't know the full extent

468
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 3: of what went down.

469
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 2: Well, it was mk Ultra one of the things we

470
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 2: learned about when I can't remember the activist group, but

471
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 2: they broke in and stole a bunch of files or

472
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 2: they like took a bunch of files.

473
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 3: I think that was co Intel Pro.

474
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 2: That was Cointelpro, okay, but mk Ultra wasn't a part

475
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 2: of that either. That was something that came out through

476
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 2: some FIA.

477
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, here's what happened. So mk Ultra gets discovered in

478
00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 3: the late seventies, so far after Manson's conviction or his arrest,

479
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 3: his conviction sentencing. Because of the panic caused by Watergate,

480
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 3: the Watergate scandal in seventy three, the CIA director who

481
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 3: knew about m k Ultra said, destroy all of this,

482
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 3: and they destroyed most of the CIA docs about MKULTRA.

483
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 3: But because some of these documents, I think like twenty

484
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 3: thousand were incorrectly stored. They were literally they were put

485
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 3: in the wrong building and that's how people found them.

486
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 3: They were in the Financial Records Office. And you might

487
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 3: be saying, yet, twenty thousand documents, that sounds like a lot,

488
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, that's a huge amount of information.

489
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 3: We'll think about what that tells us about the immensity

490
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 3: and the scope of the full MK ultra entire We only.

491
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 2: Know a little. And just going back to what you're

492
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 2: saying about cointelpro that was the Citizens Commission to Investigate

493
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 2: the FBI that we've talked about on the show before.

494
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 2: It literally went to an FBI field office. Bricon took

495
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 2: a bunch of stuff and they're like, wait, what is this.

496
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 2: They're spying on American citizens, on activists, including Martin Luther

497
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 2: King Junior.

498
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 3: And they didn't know. By the way, they didn't know

499
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 3: that's what they were looking for. It was a kind

500
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 3: of an accidental breakthrough, like a great scientific experiment. Shout out,

501
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 3: double slit. But this leads us to our first provable

502
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 3: point in this idea, in this conspiracy theory that Manso

503
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 3: was working with the CIA. The first provable point is this,

504
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 3: we know the CIA was definitely doing crazy stuff looking

505
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 3: for so called mentory and candidate truth serums, creating false memories,

506
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 3: manipulating people's minds to various ends through the use of

507
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 3: hallucinogenic substances, including LSD, and these conspiratorial experiments were often

508
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 3: conducted without anything approaching informed consent. They even set up

509
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 3: a fake brothel, they set up a fake hippie squad.

510
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 3: They were in all of it. It's a true conspiracy.

511
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 3: But how does that apply to Manson? This is where O'Neill,

512
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 3: in particular, I would argue, does some brilliant connecting of

513
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 3: the dots. And even if you feel you are a

514
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:26,479
Speaker 3: very skeptical person, fellow conspiracy realist, this is troubling. This

515
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 3: is I wouldn't say smoking gun, but it's enough to

516
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 3: beggar claims of coincidence. So again, let's connect. If we

517
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 3: connected to Manson, we have to realize, yes, CIA, FBI,

518
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 3: they're up to heinous stuff. Manson's thirty two years old.

519
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 3: He's just out of prison. And as some of us

520
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 3: in the crowd unfortunately know, when you get out of prison,

521
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 3: unless you're exonerated, you have a parole officer who is

522
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 3: in charge of your life. They have the power to

523
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 3: put you back in jail.

524
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 2: Our parole officers generally nice or are they just like

525
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 2: mean cops? Right, you better not be doing anything wrong.

526
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 3: Parole officers are people, you know in the spectrum.

527
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 2: I know, I'm just joking. Like most like most folks.

528
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 3: In the public sphere, they're probably underpaid and overworked. They're

529
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 3: probably too many cases.

530
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, like just check in, are you good? Everything's cool?

531
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 2: All right? Fine? Bye. Well, Manson did have one of

532
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 2: these parole officers, but it's a little coincidental. Let's say

533
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 2: maybe that his parole officer was a Berkeley doctoral student

534
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 2: named Roger Smith, who, guess what, was involved in a

535
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 2: federally funded program that researched LSD and drug use among

536
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 2: the population of San Franciscans. And uh, it's a little bit,

537
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 2: you know, it's a big coincidence, man, just because he's

538
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 2: involved with LSD that was a popular thing at the time,

539
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 2: research into it to figure out what's going on with

540
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 2: it and how it's affecting people. That's just a big coincidence. Yeah,

541
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 2: it has nothing to do with his connections to Manson. Sure.

542
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 3: Yeah. It's a gig economy then is now you.

543
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 2: Just got to get jobs, try to be a doctor.

544
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 3: There are a ton of people who are grad students

545
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 3: who have to have another job to get themselves through schools.

546
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 3: So the weird thing is, though, with the power that

547
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 3: you may have as a parole officer, and any parole

548
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 3: officers in the audience tonight, let us know your first

549
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 3: hand experience. As a parole officer, Smith has a degree

550
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 3: of what we call juice pull suction. He can provide

551
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 3: limited immunity to people under his supervision because if they

552
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 3: run a foul of the law, he's one of the

553
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 3: first people they call. So he has the power should

554
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 3: he wish to exercise a kind of get out a

555
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 3: jail free card, and at Manson's case and the case

556
00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 3: of Manson's followers, he does. He does. I can say

557
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 3: that's not true because he definitely did it several times.

558
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 3: He got them out of jail.

559
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 2: Really interesting and it makes you wonder if he, I

560
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 2: don't know, had access to a little LSD that was,

561
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,880
Speaker 2: you know, being used for all the experiments in research,

562
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 2: which would be an interesting relationship outside of the parole

563
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 2: officer parole thing that would be going on there normally.

564
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, the phrase we would use is beyond the scope,

565
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 3: depending on what the scope is right and what the

566
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 3: true nature of the relationship is so Smith could have

567
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,800
Speaker 3: at multiple points, pretty much any point after the first violation,

568
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 3: he could have sent Manson back to prison right for

569
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 3: quite some time. He never did. And he also never

570
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 3: bothered to report you know, evidence to drug use or

571
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 3: petty crime kind of stuff, never reported it up the chain.

572
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 3: And this happened pretty frequently. At least O'Neill has made

573
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,280
Speaker 3: a really s the case that it does. So Manson

574
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 3: remained free as a drug addled bird, and he was

575
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,439
Speaker 3: doing he was doing tons of substances, you know.

576
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 2: Well, you know, he says he only did the weed.

577
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 2: He only smoked weed and LSD and stuff that made

578
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 2: his mind expand he never did the uppers and the

579
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,320
Speaker 2: downers and all that stuff, at least that's what he says.

580
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 3: He never. He also had a very interesting habit of

581
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,839
Speaker 3: forcing his followers to do drugs that he himself did

582
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 3: not do, which is another indication of cult activity or

583
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 3: MK ultra or MK ultra. Yeah, because oh god, I

584
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 3: wish we could see the rest of the scope of mktra.

585
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 2: Oh, somebody out there, you know, contact us please, Yeah.

586
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 3: And Roger, so these are Roger Smith is working at

587
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 3: the Hate Ashbury Free Medical Clinic. Okay, he is collaborating

588
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 3: with a guy who's not related to him named David's.

589
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 3: David Smith is the founder of the clinic. He is

590
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 3: a medical doctor who's made a name for himself with

591
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 3: his expertise in pharmacology. So they get money from Uncle Sam.

592
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:17,240
Speaker 3: The CIA. The CIA funds the hate Ashbury Free Medical

593
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 3: Clinics saw operations for research into recreational drug use amidst

594
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 3: their patients. They're saying, you already have patients who may

595
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 3: or may not be kind of on the fringes of society.

596
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 3: We're going to pay you to understand more about them.

597
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, dude, sinister. It's not sinister. But if

598
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 2: you think of the motivation behind it, why does the

599
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 2: CIA want to know about that? Why does the CIA

600
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 2: want to know about that citizens within the United States

601
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:56,439
Speaker 2: that are taking recreational drugs? I don't it doesn't sit

602
00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 2: right CIA. Sorry, I'm sorry, I'm doing weird voice today.

603
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 3: I guess it's gathering intelligence technically, but.

604
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 2: On American citizens inside the United States.

605
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:13,320
Speaker 3: Right now, you're perview boys, But the what they begin

606
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 3: to notice everybody involved in this CIA funded stuff, and

607
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 3: then in just ancillary research happening at the same place.

608
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 3: They say, Wow, A lot of the folks who keep

609
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 3: showing up, you know, for treatment for like venereal disease

610
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 3: or something to help with addiction, et cetera, et cetera.

611
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,840
Speaker 3: A lot of them belonged to this Manson family or

612
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 3: this family led by Charles Manson.

613
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,280
Speaker 2: They at least know Charles real well.

614
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, or at least they know Charlie old chuckles. And

615
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 3: then it it's even deeper. I didn't know this until

616
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 3: read O'Neill's book, but there was an assistant researcher at

617
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 3: the place named Alan Rose. And Alan Rose visited the

618
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 3: Manson families compound when they when Manson relocated to la

619
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 3: And while he was there, Alan Rose participated in, you know,

620
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 3: the social rituals of the family. He used drugs, he

621
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 3: got into some weird sexual rituals.

622
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 2: As you do.

623
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, And so a lot of journalists call this

624
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 3: diplomatically or euphemistically, four months of immersive research. He's out

625
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 3: there just going hand for four months. He goes back

626
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 3: to San Francisco and then.

627
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 2: He wait, wait, or could that be like deep undercover

628
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 2: recon like really finding out what's going on there. Yeah,

629
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 2: and how could we use this group potentially?

630
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 3: And then how why does it take four months to

631
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 3: figure that out?

632
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 2: Because it was it was fun.

633
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 3: That's it's not like that hard as nails boss of this.

634
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're the four officer four.

635
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 3: Months in seventy. In nineteen seventy, after his his time,

636
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 3: I'm in the field, this guy, Alan Rose and David

637
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 3: Smith write the first scholarly paper about the Manson family,

638
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 3: the Group Marriage Commune, a case study.

639
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 2: Wait, the group marriage? Were they all married to Charlie?

640
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:24,320
Speaker 3: They were fluid in their sexual partnerships?

641
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 2: Okay?

642
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 3: And then Manson also had a tremendously vile habit, according

643
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 3: to reports, where he would you know, like going back

644
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,800
Speaker 3: to spawn ranch and everything, like he would buy people's

645
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 3: approval or favors dudes by getting female members of his

646
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 3: family to sleep with them.

647
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 2: I remember hearing about that, but I'd never I guess

648
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 2: saw it written out. I don't read books, sorry. But

649
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 2: he also made people sit around and just listen to

650
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,399
Speaker 2: him play an acoustic guitar for way too long.

651
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 3: I know, I'm just paying. I will leave the house party.

652
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 3: I mean, unless it's like vampire rules, unless invited, don't

653
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:09,839
Speaker 3: do that, you know what I mean, Because that's not

654
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 3: for the people listening, that's for you.

655
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 2: Well, I've got a little surprised for you. At the

656
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:18,799
Speaker 2: conclusion of this episode, bend, is that true? Yes?

657
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:23,799
Speaker 3: I got it. This was and we also know this

658
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 3: was not the only thing of its sort in town

659
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,320
Speaker 3: right like this. Yes, there were a lot of communesic cults,

660
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 3: but also there were other people doing you know, not

661
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 3: super above board research. There's a guy named Lewis West.

662
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 3: His middle name was like Jollin or something, so people

663
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 3: called him Jolly and and he was one of the

664
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 3: point people, one of the prime connectors for this idea

665
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,840
Speaker 3: of studying LSD in drug use amidst what they called hippies.

666
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 3: He was also a CIA psychologist with experience in deprogramming

667
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 3: brainwashing victims, and in later conversations our author here, the

668
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:18,320
Speaker 3: journalist O'Neill, will say that West had a noted expertise

669
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 3: in encouraging insanity in people through the use of substances

670
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 3: without their knowledge.

671
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 2: Really well to what end? Because he was wasn't he

672
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 2: also good at de deprogramming people from things? I guess Wait,

673
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 2: was he programming people and then deprogramming them? I don't know.

674
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 3: It's like if you already have a person around. It

675
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 3: depends on what you need for the experiment. Most I mean,

676
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 3: the Department of Defense is weirdly enough graded offense.

677
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:54,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true, you just need test subjects.

678
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:59,720
Speaker 3: Whoa. They did that by creating a fake hippie crash

679
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 3: path stop. Yeah, clinic, it's true.

680
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 2: No, it's true, the one we just talked about, Like,

681
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 2: so wait, this is all connected.

682
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, what the fake pad is like this dilapidated Victorian building.

683
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:20,320
Speaker 3: It's pretty close to the hate Ashbury Free Medical Clinic.

684
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 3: And the idea is we're just going to study these

685
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 3: hippies in the wild. We'll see what leads to addiction

686
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:31,880
Speaker 3: or homelessness, et cetera. West also works for Sidney Gottlieb,

687
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:37,760
Speaker 3: head of the MK Ultra programs. At some point, Yeah.

688
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 2: Gee, I wonder why Tom was so into the story.

689
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 2: It feels like everything is already connecting, at least in

690
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:44,720
Speaker 2: my mind.

691
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can tell. And if he's a kick ass journalist,

692
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:53,319
Speaker 3: so he has to and he has to turn every

693
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:57,319
Speaker 3: stone right if it could lead to something, And you know,

694
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:01,279
Speaker 3: we know this wasn't a unique situation. Sadly, because I

695
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,399
Speaker 3: think it was nineteen seventy six. New York Times has

696
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 3: their own investigation and they find the CIA has collaborated

697
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:14,680
Speaker 3: with all sorts of places, National Institute for Mental Health, Foundations,

698
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 3: Fund for Research and Psychiatry, incorporated, all sorts of basically

699
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 3: things they were using as fronts or shell companies, such

700
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 3: that in several cases, many of the researchers who were

701
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:31,400
Speaker 3: receiving this funding might not know that it was coming

702
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:35,479
Speaker 3: from the CIA. So now everybody involved in MK ultra

703
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 3: was knowingly malevolent.

704
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, and there was real research to be done.

705
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 2: This is a This is an incredible substance that seems

706
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 2: to have tremendous effects on the human I don't know,

707
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 2: state of mind. So you can understand why there was

708
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,360
Speaker 2: such interest here. You can also see why the CIA

709
00:43:57,440 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 2: had interest. We've been joking a lot about it, but

710
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 2: we're in the midst of the Cold War here, the CIA,

711
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 2: the FBI, all of the American government is both terrified

712
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 2: and super pissed at the concept of communism up terrified

713
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 2: of and angry at it. But you know, it's there's

714
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 2: a reason for all of it to be happening, but

715
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:24,800
Speaker 2: for it to culminate with freaking Charles Manson somehow super

716
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 2: closely tied to it is just weird.

717
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we still haven't we're not we're not out

718
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:32,720
Speaker 3: there yet. But I really appreciate the point you're raising

719
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 3: about that context and about the the validity the legitimacy

720
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 3: of those concerns, because the USSR was actively attempting to

721
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:47,319
Speaker 3: infiltrate and influence movements and the US government entire and

722
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:51,360
Speaker 3: they had they had a degree of success in doing so,

723
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 3: So you have to cut it off at the button.

724
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 3: You might say, hey, I am you know, I'm a

725
00:44:56,080 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 3: five y five John Q Blue Jeans employee. I would

726
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 3: never do hippie drugs like LSD. But if the Russians

727
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 3: figure out a use for it and we are running

728
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 3: behind in the game, this could change the course of

729
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 3: the globe. So they I wouldn't even say it was

730
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 3: a rationalization at first. It was a very profound realization.

731
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 3: They had to try it.

732
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:22,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, they're probably even worried that the Americans might

733
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 2: be taking the bait and just using it too much recreationally,

734
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 2: right as and it's being supplied somehow by someone who's

735
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:32,360
Speaker 2: also working for them.

736
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then we got to get into Olsley, the

737
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:38,799
Speaker 3: famous mad scientist of LSD, like mm hmm what his

738
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 3: connections were. I don't know if you remember, but we

739
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 3: got some fascinating correspondence a few years back about this.

740
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, my gosh.

741
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 3: And this all leads us to the second point we

742
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:54,759
Speaker 3: can definitely prove, which that Manson was around the same

743
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:58,480
Speaker 3: time these programs were active. He was in the same place.

744
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 3: He was associated with people who are being studied in

745
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:06,799
Speaker 3: the research right his followers. He was associated with people who,

746
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 3: at the very least were associated with people who are

747
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:14,439
Speaker 3: active in these programs as administrators, as researchers. But being

748
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 3: in the same area of an event does not prove

749
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 3: you were involved in that event. That's like if we're

750
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 3: walking through New York City on the night the Yankees

751
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 3: win the World Series. It doesn't mean we're on the team.

752
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:28,439
Speaker 3: We were just also there.

753
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:31,400
Speaker 2: Ah. I guess you're right.

754
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:33,799
Speaker 3: But it still needs more scrutiny, and maybe that's our

755
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:34,279
Speaker 3: ad break.

756
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:38,439
Speaker 2: I think, so more scrutiny, more ads will be right back.

757
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 3: We returned. Hope everybody had a good time scrutinizing those ads.

758
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 3: Our pal O'Neill uncovers evidence that LA law enforcement investigators

759
00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 3: seem to have mishandled multiple aspects of the case. And

760
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 3: this is something, you know, This is something that Vincent

761
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:09,239
Speaker 3: b points out in Helter Skelter. O'Neil says, though he

762
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 3: takes a little step further, and he says the LAPD

763
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 3: Los Angeles Police Department destroyed records from murder investigations involving Manson.

764
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:23,439
Speaker 3: Now being a parole officer and saying, hey, my guy

765
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:26,359
Speaker 3: messed up. You know, he's out past curfew one time.

766
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 3: Don't put him in jail again, or don't put him

767
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 3: in prison again, that's one thing. But saying hey, my

768
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 3: guy might have murdered someone. Let's just keep it quiet

769
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:39,360
Speaker 3: till the experiment is done, that's a whole other back Badgers.

770
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:43,359
Speaker 2: I would say, so, yeah, And I think there are

771
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 2: specific passages in Chaos where O'Neil talks about some of

772
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 2: this stuff, right, yeah.

773
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:53,760
Speaker 3: In one passage he is speaking with a forensic psychologist. Again,

774
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 3: O'Neill interviews so many people for this. Sometimes the interviews

775
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:01,319
Speaker 3: are contentious, and then there's still people who have just

776
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 3: refused to talk to him at all. But in one

777
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:08,240
Speaker 3: in one conversation, he's talking to a guy named Alan Shefflin,

778
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:13,880
Speaker 3: a forensic psychologist, and they're talking about the possible fallout

779
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 3: of mk ultra, this mind control program, and he asked Shefflin,

780
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 3: He says, well, is it maybe possible that the Manson

781
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 3: murders were part of an mk ultra experiment gone wrong?

782
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 2: And Shefflin says, no, an mk ultra experiment gone right?

783
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 2: What dude, it makes so much sense. They want the

784
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:42,360
Speaker 2: hippies to be evil because the hippies are Commies and

785
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:43,799
Speaker 2: the Commies are bad.

786
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:48,280
Speaker 3: M all right, just like the allegations of the FBI

787
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 3: bankrolling problematic gangster rap. Right, we didn't have a shirt

788
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 3: on that, dude.

789
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 2: You can't got to destroy the connective tissue between groups

790
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 2: telling you it's a thing. It's still happening.

791
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 3: There is no smoking gun yet. However, we do know

792
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:11,280
Speaker 3: like this West guy, our buddy Jolly, was being paid

793
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 3: to quote study hippies in their native habitat they called it.

794
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 3: Manson was there at the same time, and like the

795
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:22,760
Speaker 3: CIA would later be proven to do, Manson was dosing

796
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:27,319
Speaker 3: people with LSD. I mean, it seems again like you know,

797
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:29,439
Speaker 3: everybody check out our old video on how to start

798
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:32,359
Speaker 3: a cult, But it seems again like this is sort

799
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:35,239
Speaker 3: of an mo of a cult leader. You want to

800
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:39,760
Speaker 3: remove personalities. You want to remove individuality. You want to remove,

801
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:42,839
Speaker 3: most importantly, the ability to say no to you if

802
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 3: you're the leader.

803
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 2: So think about it, right, right.

804
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 3: Don't think about it. Listen to my acoustic guitar. And

805
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 3: this makes them easier to control, more malleable, more menable,

806
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 3: and weirdly enough, later down the line, when this stuff

807
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 3: goes to court, defense attorneys will try to use this

808
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 3: as a mitigating factor. It doesn't work, but it does

809
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:08,919
Speaker 3: all lead O'Neil and a lot of other people who

810
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:12,399
Speaker 3: have the same bent to ask, Okay, hang on, if

811
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:15,960
Speaker 3: this Charles Mancy guy is largely uneducated, how could he

812
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:21,040
Speaker 3: land upon such sophisticated methods of personality control? Do you

813
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:23,240
Speaker 3: just have a real knack for it? He was just vibing'

814
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 3: and then he figured out like the right dosage patterns

815
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:27,719
Speaker 3: and frequency of dosage and so on.

816
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 2: We'll see. There was this guy at the clinic and

817
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 2: he was really good at cults programming and deprogramming. Sorry,

818
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:42,279
Speaker 2: and here's the question. The connection feels right again, that's

819
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:45,440
Speaker 2: the problem with this. And again, the zodiac theories and

820
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:48,759
Speaker 2: some of this other stuff. It feels so right on

821
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:54,240
Speaker 2: the surface when you're looking at it. I don't know, man, Well.

822
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 3: It's like one of those things where you know those

823
00:50:56,719 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 3: puzzles kids played, where you might see a bunch of dots.

824
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 3: When you connect the dots it makes a picture. Yeah,

825
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 3: it's just like that when we see part of the

826
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 3: picture drawn. But you know, we it gives you a

827
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 3: bad vibe. I think we could say it gives you

828
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 3: a bad vibe because the implication here is could go

829
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:20,440
Speaker 3: a couple of ways. In one way, you could say Manson,

830
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:24,840
Speaker 3: who is by all accounts a very observant, very clever person,

831
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:29,399
Speaker 3: may have clocked there was experimentation taking place and may

832
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 3: have paid enough attention to replicate some aspect of that

833
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 3: experiment or those processes on his followers, or the more

834
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 3: conspiratorial end of it. Someone could have actively taught him

835
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 3: these things like, hey, Charlie, thanks for coming by the office.

836
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:46,759
Speaker 3: You want to see something cool.

837
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:52,279
Speaker 2: Check this out, Charlie. Well, or there's a piece of

838
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:55,000
Speaker 2: it that could be that's why he's staying out of prison,

839
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 2: because he's complicit in these experiments and he's doing it.

840
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:01,719
Speaker 2: And you could even take it further and say, the

841
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 2: real experiment is on Charlie and to see whether or

842
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:07,799
Speaker 2: not you could influence Charlie to do these things and

843
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:09,680
Speaker 2: to influence other people further.

844
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:13,760
Speaker 3: Right, if you could create a cult leader, right, something

845
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:17,239
Speaker 3: that some kind of thing that you could just transport

846
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:20,560
Speaker 3: to an unfriendly country or a country that clearly needs

847
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 3: some democracy, and then you have that be the leader

848
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:27,920
Speaker 3: of you know, your homegrown student group. Charismatic leaders are

849
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:30,880
Speaker 3: real things. Shout out to school the Americas. You know,

850
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:31,959
Speaker 3: that worked until it didn't.

851
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:36,759
Speaker 2: Yikes. Man again, look, we can't prove any of this stuff.

852
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:42,160
Speaker 2: We're talking possibilities, right, That's all this is. But man,

853
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:44,920
Speaker 2: it it gets the wheels turning.

854
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:49,040
Speaker 3: I mean the third provable point, which I guess is

855
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:52,240
Speaker 3: kind of out of order. We know that Roger Smith,

856
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:56,799
Speaker 3: the parole officer and doctoral student, continually gave Manson and

857
00:52:56,840 --> 00:52:59,759
Speaker 3: his followers a get out of jail free card, like

858
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:03,240
Speaker 3: in less than forty eight hours getting Popps, no matter

859
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 3: what the circumstances. They were back out.

860
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:08,760
Speaker 2: They were assets. They were assets, dude.

861
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:10,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you don't have to know you're an asset

862
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 3: to be an asset.

863
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 2: Exactly exactly. And I think it's the same with his

864
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:20,920
Speaker 2: followers and with Charlie. Maybe he is completely unaware. Oh

865
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:23,640
Speaker 2: this is a possibility, But maybe he's completely unaware that

866
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:25,359
Speaker 2: he's the actual target of the thing.

867
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:31,800
Speaker 3: And disturbingly, it also fits some of the structural modus

868
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 3: operandi we know about the CIA programs during this time.

869
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:39,560
Speaker 3: You want someone else, you want to escapegoat or some

870
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:43,080
Speaker 3: an asset he can burn if you have to. Yeah, Patsy, right,

871
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:46,960
Speaker 3: you want you know, you want a Oswald, you want

872
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:48,400
Speaker 3: a Ruby something like that.

873
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:50,680
Speaker 2: That's what Oswald called himself. I'm a Patsy.

874
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:54,759
Speaker 3: That's what he did. And maybe, look, maybe this is

875
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 3: all a matter of bending small rules and service to

876
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 3: a greater good. Maybe Roger Smith was taken in by

877
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 3: Manson and thought he's a good egg. At the end

878
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:06,080
Speaker 3: of the day, he just had a crap life, and

879
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:10,760
Speaker 3: you know he deserves a second fifteenth or twenty seventh chance, whatever.

880
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:14,319
Speaker 2: But we can also, I agree, we should also put

881
00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:18,160
Speaker 2: this out there, completely made up. Off the top of

882
00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 2: my head, there's a possibility that his parole officer was

883
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:25,000
Speaker 2: subject to some of the same favors that Charlie was

884
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:27,560
Speaker 2: giving to the other males in his groups.

885
00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:30,760
Speaker 3: Right, right, Yeah, he could have been compromised.

886
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 2: Exactly, and maybe that's the reason. And then he has

887
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:35,879
Speaker 2: to protect Charlie and his followers.

888
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:39,239
Speaker 3: But if he's protecting them for small time crimes and

889
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:42,120
Speaker 3: drug use, even if the mk ultra connection is real

890
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:46,799
Speaker 3: and he's rationalizing it, right, then at what point does

891
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:50,560
Speaker 3: something no longer? Can you no longer define something as

892
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:55,320
Speaker 3: a small time crime? Murder is a big deal, and O'Neill,

893
00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 3: Tom O'Neil, our author here, believes the family was responsible

894
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:02,839
Speaker 3: for more murder than the Tate la Bianca homicides, and

895
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:06,440
Speaker 3: the evidence, which may I have time to get into today,

896
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 3: is pretty concerning. There's one. There are several unsolved murders

897
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:14,240
Speaker 3: at this point. One of them, just for a quick example,

898
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:18,280
Speaker 3: is a guy named Felipo Tenerelli. He was found dead

899
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:23,120
Speaker 3: under some really strange circumstances, particularly his pubic hair had

900
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:26,959
Speaker 3: been shaved two hours before his death, and a member

901
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:29,800
Speaker 3: of the Manson family around the same time named Bill Vance,

902
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 3: had what he called a magic vest they like to wear,

903
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 3: and it was decorated with pubic hair. Tenerelli's family refuses

904
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:43,279
Speaker 3: to believe the official conclusion of suicide and to this day,

905
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:47,719
Speaker 3: they are campaigning for authorities to release more evidence about

906
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:49,839
Speaker 3: the murder or the death, which they have none.

907
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 2: That's that's one of the major problems with our system. Man.

908
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:58,799
Speaker 2: Once something is ruled an accident or suicide and all

909
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:02,400
Speaker 2: the evidence, maybe he just goes away, just go we

910
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:05,000
Speaker 2: don't need that. It's just a it was a suicide.

911
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:06,520
Speaker 3: Stuff to get it reassessed.

912
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:11,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's yeah, yay, that's horrifying. A magic vest of

913
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:12,520
Speaker 2: pubic hair.

914
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 3: I don't know if that's the kind of magic I'm into.

915
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:20,200
Speaker 2: No. I like fox magic, I like.

916
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 3: All sorts of esoteric pursuits, but I think I'll avoid

917
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:25,840
Speaker 3: the pubic vest.

918
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:28,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, moon magic, stick to moon magic.

919
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:30,360
Speaker 3: I mean, do you you know what I mean? Just

920
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:35,640
Speaker 3: don't hurt other people, right, So get your pubic hair consensually, folks.

921
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:39,560
Speaker 3: There's the other thing. There's so much missing evidence. It

922
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:43,680
Speaker 3: appears to be right. Like before the publication of Helter Skelter,

923
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:48,799
Speaker 3: Tex Watson that we've talked about in the show previously.

924
00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:50,960
Speaker 2: He had this is somebody's a part of the group.

925
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:53,239
Speaker 3: Right, Tex Watson's a member of the family, of the

926
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:57,440
Speaker 3: Manson family. He had several hours of taped confessions that

927
00:56:57,480 --> 00:57:01,000
Speaker 3: the DA and Tex Watson agreed should not be made

928
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:03,160
Speaker 3: available to lawyers or journalists.

929
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:10,280
Speaker 2: Why, uh, there's gnarly stuff in there. Well, and maybe

930
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:14,200
Speaker 2: he's lying a ton, yeah, which is a real possibility.

931
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:19,440
Speaker 2: But what if there is stuff in there? Do those exist?

932
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 2: Do we think, like somewhere physically on tape they did for.

933
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:27,800
Speaker 3: A while, Yeah, we just haven't. We the public haven't

934
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:31,840
Speaker 3: heard them. So one possibility is that whatever he says there,

935
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:35,320
Speaker 3: if it's not total hogwash, it may have in some

936
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:41,040
Speaker 3: way implicated the authorities on some side of this. Maybe

937
00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:42,960
Speaker 3: he talked a little bit at length about those get

938
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:46,479
Speaker 3: out of jail free cards, you know, maybe he talked

939
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 3: about other murders as well. We simply do not know,

940
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:56,240
Speaker 3: and we should note that again. Vincent Luligosi is he

941
00:57:56,640 --> 00:58:03,280
Speaker 3: was the DA for Los Angeles during nineteen sixty four

942
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:07,720
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy two. He prosecuted Charles Manson, and that's why

943
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:12,320
Speaker 3: his book Helter Skelter is by many widely considered like

944
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:17,520
Speaker 3: the definitive source on what went down and the motivations.

945
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:24,240
Speaker 3: But O'Neill and Vincent Buligosi disagree on multiple key facts

946
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:28,919
Speaker 3: the book that O'Neil has does not prove Manson worked

947
00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:33,200
Speaker 3: with the CIA, but it raises some dangerous, disturbing questions,

948
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:37,840
Speaker 3: important questions about the you know, the prevailing narrative. But

949
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:40,720
Speaker 3: even that is like raising questions. Is still not the

950
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:44,520
Speaker 3: same thing as saying the CIA weaponized hippies in a

951
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:46,160
Speaker 3: mad race to control America.

952
00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:50,800
Speaker 2: Well yeah, yeah, but it does make you wonder about

953
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:53,600
Speaker 2: this whole season of the which thing as the Summer

954
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:55,960
Speaker 2: of Love was coming to an end, as the Zodiac

955
00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:58,920
Speaker 2: Killer in sixty eight and sixty nine, as stuff like

956
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:03,400
Speaker 2: the Manson family stuff, you know, the murders, assassinations of

957
00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:10,400
Speaker 2: very popular, let's say, uniting figures. It makes you wonder

958
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:16,440
Speaker 2: about that large change in the American psyche and like,

959
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:19,720
Speaker 2: what really did motivate that stuff? And could any of

960
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:25,640
Speaker 2: that have actually been projects too, you know, to alter

961
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:29,840
Speaker 2: the way America was already changing. At least that's what

962
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:30,320
Speaker 2: it does to me.

963
00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:36,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, agreed, agreed, Because we want to find a causative agent, right,

964
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:40,040
Speaker 3: we want to find the variables that led to these

965
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:45,040
Speaker 3: apparent and improvable changes. What soured America? You know, what

966
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:48,560
Speaker 3: cut the heels of the flower power movement?

967
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:50,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, some will say it was just an awakening

968
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:55,640
Speaker 2: to institutions that were not set up for what their

969
00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:59,920
Speaker 2: intended purposes maybe were, or maybe those intended purposes were

970
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:02,640
Speaker 2: never the thing that we were told exactly.

971
01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:05,880
Speaker 3: And this leaves us I think I was well said, Matt.

972
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:08,920
Speaker 3: This leaves us with more questions. We know the CIA

973
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 3: officially claims to have terminated in k Ultra in nineteen

974
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:18,440
Speaker 3: seventy three. They also issued a statement slash review of

975
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:21,400
Speaker 3: the book Chaos by Tom O'Neill, and I think we

976
01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:24,800
Speaker 3: can agree there. The whole thing is a good read.

977
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:29,040
Speaker 3: The review and the conclusion is somewhat surprising, and they

978
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:35,400
Speaker 3: give O'Neill some compliments. I think that the last, like

979
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:38,600
Speaker 3: the last part of it, just says O'Neill's narrative is

980
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:46,400
Speaker 3: never uninteresting, and he raises legitimate questions. And then they say,

981
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:50,400
Speaker 3: no matter what, though he's not written a secret history

982
01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:54,240
Speaker 3: of the nineteen sixties. And then this line, Matt.

983
01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:57,480
Speaker 2: This one is weird and I had trouble reading it aloud.

984
01:00:57,720 --> 01:00:59,000
Speaker 2: So you go for it.

985
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:02,760
Speaker 3: Unless he has not written a secret history of the

986
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:06,680
Speaker 3: nineteen sixties. Unless the secrets are those certain individuals wish

987
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:10,080
Speaker 3: to keep for their own reasons. The author cannot definitively

988
01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:13,560
Speaker 3: tie Manson, Tim Kay, Ultra or Chaos. He can only

989
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:17,040
Speaker 3: imply it on circumstantial evidence. At least in the end

990
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:19,959
Speaker 3: he has the grace to acknowledge it, which like, they're

991
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:24,520
Speaker 3: not saying he's wrong about stuff, and he doesn't. He

992
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:28,320
Speaker 3: doesn't claim to have definitive proof. He's like, look, I

993
01:01:28,360 --> 01:01:31,080
Speaker 3: am compelled to follow this stuff up, and I will

994
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:34,240
Speaker 3: be honest about what I've found. Yes, so why is

995
01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:34,800
Speaker 3: the CIA?

996
01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:38,960
Speaker 2: Man does CIA? Is like a good try, pal, you

997
01:01:39,160 --> 01:01:44,160
Speaker 2: almost got there. Yeah.

998
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:44,439
Speaker 1: Yeah.

999
01:01:45,080 --> 01:01:47,480
Speaker 3: So with that, what we can say is this, there

1000
01:01:47,560 --> 01:01:51,040
Speaker 3: is no conclusive proof that Manson was knowingly working for

1001
01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:53,640
Speaker 3: the CIA, but there is proof there is in the

1002
01:01:53,680 --> 01:01:55,840
Speaker 3: same area at the same time, they were doing some

1003
01:01:55,880 --> 01:01:59,320
Speaker 3: pretty high heinous mind altering experiments, and he did know

1004
01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:03,320
Speaker 3: people associated with those programs, both as the conductors of

1005
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:09,400
Speaker 3: the experiment and as the participants that I don't know.

1006
01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:11,880
Speaker 3: I don't know what to think on this one.

1007
01:02:12,080 --> 01:02:15,560
Speaker 2: I know what to think the CIA did that stuff? No,

1008
01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:17,960
Speaker 2: I'm just joking. That is how I feel, though. I

1009
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:21,600
Speaker 2: think coming away from this episode, it feels like there

1010
01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:24,080
Speaker 2: is a yet to be proven thing that might live

1011
01:02:24,120 --> 01:02:28,080
Speaker 2: in those texts recordings that we mentioned, and if you

1012
01:02:28,160 --> 01:02:31,160
Speaker 2: can find those whoever you are, or you've seen them

1013
01:02:31,200 --> 01:02:36,400
Speaker 2: somewhere in a darkened file cabinet, get them out and

1014
01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:38,360
Speaker 2: show the world in us two.

1015
01:02:39,440 --> 01:02:42,000
Speaker 3: Yes, we cannot wait to hear from you. We try

1016
01:02:42,040 --> 01:02:47,200
Speaker 3: to be easy to find online Facebook, Instagram, Twitter or x.

1017
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:50,080
Speaker 3: You can also hit us up at the right crossroads

1018
01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:53,000
Speaker 3: at midnight, say a name three times into a mirror

1019
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:54,960
Speaker 3: in the dark. Or you can give us a phone call.

1020
01:02:55,840 --> 01:02:59,080
Speaker 2: Yes, call their number. It is one eight three three

1021
01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:04,600
Speaker 2: stdyk when you call in. Give yourself a cool nickname,

1022
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:07,360
Speaker 2: whatever you want, really, just not your government name and

1023
01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:09,000
Speaker 2: let us know at some point in the message if

1024
01:03:09,040 --> 01:03:11,200
Speaker 2: we can use your name and message on the air.

1025
01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:13,400
Speaker 2: If you got more to say than can fit in

1026
01:03:13,440 --> 01:03:17,520
Speaker 2: that three minutes, maybe attachments links, I don't know, some

1027
01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:22,080
Speaker 2: cassette tapes of Tex Watson telling his secrets. Why instead

1028
01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:23,760
Speaker 2: send us a good old fashioned email.

1029
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:26,720
Speaker 3: We are the folks who read every email we receive.

1030
01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:29,800
Speaker 3: Be aware the void me right back, and you could

1031
01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:33,560
Speaker 3: totally use your government name if you like. Just ask

1032
01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:37,640
Speaker 3: that you don't knowingly pretend to be someone else. Conspiracy

1033
01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:58,320
Speaker 3: at iHeartRadio dot com.

1034
01:03:58,560 --> 01:04:00,600
Speaker 2: Stuff They Don't Want You To Know is a production

1035
01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:05,240
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1036
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:08,200
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.