1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:04,640 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. For earlier access to these episodes, access 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:08,160 Speaker 1: to Ask Me Anything sessions, and extended breakdowns of historical 3 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: and current events, please consider joining our Warning Premium community 4 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: by clicking the link in the description to this episode. 5 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: I'm very, very pleased to be joined by Fred Gutenberg, 6 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: somebody who has taken tragedy and imbued as best he 7 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: can it with the meaning, the conviction, the hope that 8 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: he can make things better, and that what happened to him, 9 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: his family, and his beautiful daughter Jamie on February the 10 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: fourteenth will never ever happen again in this country, but 11 00:00:54,640 --> 00:01:00,639 Speaker 1: sadly it does time and time and time again. There 12 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:06,319 Speaker 1: are few people that I admire more, that I respect more, 13 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: and who I am more in awe of for his 14 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: simple ability to inspire after a tragedy that I think, 15 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:25,680 Speaker 1: for a generation of American parents is profoundly our worst fear, 16 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: the idea that you can drop your child off at school, 17 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: a place where they are supposed to be safe, and 18 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: know that they may never come home again. And that 19 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: fear was realized for Fred Gutenberg and his family and 20 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: sixteen other American families in Florida one day. And this 21 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: is something that has happened all over America and is 22 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: allowed to continue to happen in part because of the 23 00:01:55,440 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: spinelessness of a political class that is intimidated by extremist 24 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: organizations by their menace, and is afraid to take the 25 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: steps necessary to protect the most vulnerable amongst us, our 26 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 1: school children, but in the end, all of us. So 27 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: Fred Gutenberg, welcome. 28 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 2: Thank you. It's good to see you in person. I 29 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 2: know we've followed each other for quite some time, but 30 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 2: I think this is our first time actually doing an 31 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 2: interview with each other. So thanks for asking me to 32 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 2: be on it. 33 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 1: Is it's a real privilege. Fred, tell me about the 34 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 1: painting behind you. 35 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's my daughter. My daughter was a beautiful competitive dancer. 36 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 2: She put every bit of her energy into being the 37 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 2: best possible dancer that she could be. She is a dancer, 38 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 2: was known for her amazing leaps, and somebody painted that 39 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 2: for me off of a photo of one of her leaps. 40 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:09,079 Speaker 2: And I leave it there because, as you can see 41 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 2: where I sit, it looks like she's standing over my shoulder, 42 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 2: and it's just my way of always having her standing 43 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 2: on my shoulders, pushing me forward as I do this. 44 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 2: You know, Steve. She should have turned twenty last week 45 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:31,359 Speaker 2: on July thirteenth, and she was killed when she was fourteen. 46 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 2: It didn't get any easier all these years having another birthday. 47 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 2: In fact, this one felt particularly hard. I miss my kid. 48 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 1: I have a hard time even having the courage to 49 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: face you as a father of a daughter who is 50 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: the same age as Amy, who was born in September 51 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: of two thousand and three, and also the father of 52 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: a son who was the same age as the children 53 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 1: executed in Newton, Connecticut, Newtown, Connecticut. 54 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 2: And I think. 55 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 1: About being a parent, and you were a parent like 56 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: me with children, and you see these stories and you 57 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 1: know in an abstract sense that this deadly danger is there, 58 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: in the same way that I suppose people win the lottery. 59 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:55,280 Speaker 1: You don't know anyone firsthand. And then one day, as 60 00:04:55,360 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 1: has happened over and over again in America, it happens 61 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 1: to you at the school, to your family, to your daughter. 62 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:14,119 Speaker 1: And one of the things that I was struck by 63 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: is you made a comment on social media about Ron 64 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 1: DeSantis and his pessimism, and you said, of all people, 65 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: I have a right, as you certainly do, to have 66 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: a terrible attitude towards your country and a great pessimism 67 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: towards it, and you do not. You have faith and 68 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: hope that DeSantis clearly does not. And one of the 69 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: things I was very interested about talking to you about 70 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 1: is this sense of faith and hope that you have 71 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: retained in your country, and you've also talked about since 72 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: the tragedy. Though you remain close to your rabbi, you 73 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: have withdrawn from the practice of your faith, and that 74 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: the corresponding faith in your country versus faith in a 75 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 1: higher power. How do you relate to those two, the 76 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: maintenance of one the loss of another, against the endurance 77 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: just to continue moving forward? 78 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 2: Yeah? Wow, what a question. Here's the thing. My faith 79 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 2: comes from having traveled this country literally almost NonStop since 80 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:57,720 Speaker 2: my daughter was killed. I am a person who does 81 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 2: understand what his voice is meant to this movement and 82 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 2: who has true guilt over the fact that I wasn't 83 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 2: doing anything until it was my kid. And as I've 84 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:15,119 Speaker 2: traveled the country, I have found everywhere I've gone, whether 85 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 2: it was red or blue, it doesn't matter. People who 86 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 2: just embrace me, who shower me with love over my loss, 87 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 2: who tell me they understand, who support me, who tell 88 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 2: me they don't support the political climate that led this 89 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 2: to happen. And again, I'm not talking about in places 90 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 2: like New York. I'm talking about when I travel around Florida, 91 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 2: when I go to a place like Texas, when I 92 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 2: go to a place like you know, Missouri, or other 93 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 2: just places where you think there's no chance that everywhere 94 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 2: I go, I need amazing people, real people who get it, 95 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 2: who have others that they love and who want to 96 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 2: protect them. And as long as I keep meeting people 97 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 2: like them, I have hope and I have faith, and 98 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 2: I believe if you look just at the election since 99 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:23,559 Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, while it's been a struggle and it's been hard, 100 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 2: the hope and faith has been warranted. We have been 101 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 2: taking really incremental, small steps, but steps in the right direction. Yeah, 102 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,440 Speaker 2: there's also steps in certain states backwards. I get it. 103 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:42,439 Speaker 3: But I have no choice but to have hope because 104 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 3: it's the hope that keeps me moving forward, to fight, 105 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 3: because all I want to do is stop the next one. 106 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 2: As for religion, listen, I'm a Jewish person. I was 107 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 2: raised in a conservative temple. I've practiced my entire life. 108 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 2: Four months before my daughter was killed, my brother died 109 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 2: of cancer related to his service in nine to eleven. 110 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 2: He was fifty years old. My brother ran the triosh 111 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 2: for the World Trade Center and amazingly survived that the 112 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 2: building collapse on him and his group of ten doctors 113 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 2: and where they hid for whatever reason, didn't collapse. But 114 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 2: in seventeen, twenty seventeen, he died of the cancer that 115 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 2: comes from that. And I'll never forget a really deep 116 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 2: conversation with the Rabbi talking about God's plan and how 117 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 2: my brother is in another place now where he's needed, 118 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 2: and how he did more than fifty years of his 119 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 2: life than most people will ever get to do in 120 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 2: one hundred years. And it made sense to me for 121 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 2: my brother. And then my daughter was killed and I 122 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 2: can't reconcile it. I can't understand in a from the 123 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 2: standpoint of a religious capacity, how this could have happened. 124 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 2: And so yeah, I'm disconnected right now from the belief 125 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 2: in a higher power. John Kasik years ago had an 126 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 2: almost day long conversation with me when I was in Ohio, 127 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,319 Speaker 2: and we got pretty deep on this, and he said 128 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 2: to me, just don't ever close off the possibility of 129 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 2: finding your way back and That's where I'm at. I've 130 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 2: never closed off the possibility, but I haven't gotten there yet. Boy, 131 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:43,079 Speaker 2: I have faith and the people who I need across 132 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 2: this amazing country, people like you. You know. I'll be 133 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 2: real honest politically. You and I probably have spent most 134 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 2: of our lives disconnected from each other, but here we 135 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 2: are because we both love our country, and we love 136 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 2: our democracy, love the idea of public safety, and we 137 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 2: have found a way to talk to each other that 138 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 2: gives me faith. 139 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 1: Really extraordinary answer, do you ever feel the calling to 140 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: run for office? 141 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 2: I have been asked many times, you know. When Ted 142 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 2: Deutsch announced his retirement, I was asked directly by Ted 143 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 2: as well as the current Congressman, Jared Moscows, who's one 144 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 2: of my closest friends. Jared asked me to run as 145 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:39,680 Speaker 2: well before he made his final decision. But I made 146 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 2: a decision for myself or for my family, never to 147 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 2: do that. For a few reasons. I didn't start fighting 148 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 2: because I had this desire for political life. I started 149 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 2: running my mouth because I had a cause that I 150 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 2: believed in and the ability to speak purely about how 151 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 2: I feel, the ability to praise those who deserve it, 152 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 2: but to sincerely call out those who need to be 153 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 2: called out in unfiltered terms matters more to me than 154 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:25,839 Speaker 2: running for office. And I just know when you serve 155 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 2: in office, there's things like decorum, you know, and ways 156 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 2: of behaving amongst one another that honestly, this guy doesn't 157 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 2: feel like do it. And I just never try to 158 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 2: pretend I'm anything other than Jesse and Jamie's dad. That's 159 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 2: who I am, It's who I want to be, and 160 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 2: as Jesse and Jamie's dad, I want to hold every 161 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 2: one of these lunatics accountable for the things they say 162 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 2: and the things they do that put us at risk. 163 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 2: You mentioned DeSantis. I despise the guy and I want 164 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 2: him to lose, and he's going to lose, and he's 165 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 2: going to lose because people like me who live in 166 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,959 Speaker 2: Florida will make sure everyone around the country knows the 167 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 2: truth about him, and he's going to lose. They say 168 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:31,680 Speaker 2: things on a daily basis, you know it, you call 169 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 2: them out for it that aren't true and that put 170 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 2: us at risk. I want to spend my time being 171 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 2: a truth teller taking them on, but not burdened by fundraising, 172 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 2: not burdened by this need to go along and get along. 173 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 2: That's just not who I am. 174 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 1: I want to ask you about the first time you 175 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:58,559 Speaker 1: ever met Ron DeSantis. Do you call the occasion I do? 176 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 2: It was probably in his very first month as governor. 177 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 2: He made commitments to the Parkman families and it was 178 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 2: part of how we as families felt a kinship to him. 179 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 2: Early on, one of the commitments he made was for 180 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 2: accountability in the Brower Shriff's office. The Brower Sheriff's office 181 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 2: failed my family and the other families, and he quickly 182 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 2: came in and said he was going to remove the 183 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 2: sheriff from office. And I supported him. And there was 184 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 2: a big press conference down here which he came to. 185 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 2: And he was already under the impression that I didn't 186 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 2: like him, because I had been for the most because 187 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 2: I had been really vocal at not wanting him to win. 188 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 2: But I was supporting him on this. And it's what 189 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 2: happened was there was a big press conference. I did speak. 190 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 2: I was asked to make sure that I don't go 191 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 2: off on him, which I wasn't planning to do, and 192 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 2: he in his office then had me come to Tallahassee 193 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 2: at a later date. As with some of the other 194 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 2: Parkland families to testify in support of the decision to 195 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 2: remove that sheriff. Here's the thing. I was wrong, and 196 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 2: I'm going to tell you why I was wrong to 197 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 2: support him. I was warned back then by many who 198 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 2: were much smarter than I am when it comes to politics, 199 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 2: that if this decision, while emotionally it felt good to me, 200 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 2: becomes validated, it's going to empower him to do other 201 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 2: things that may not be lawful, that may not be constitutional. 202 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 2: And we, unfortunately in Florida, saw him go on a 203 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 2: power trip removing people from office that he had no 204 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 2: right removing. It was my first experience with him. I 205 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 2: supported him in it, and I was wrong to do. 206 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 2: So what was your. 207 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: First impression of meeting him as a man? Take me, 208 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: Take me to the two minutes before you meet him. 209 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 2: Where where are you. 210 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: And who are you standing on all of the families. 211 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 2: I can't recall all of the families were there, but 212 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 2: I know several of them were okay, And we were 213 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 2: standing on a patio in front of the Brower Sheriff's office. 214 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 2: And my recollection of him is actually really to be 215 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 2: summed up in a word. 216 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 1: Was it before you before you get to that word, 217 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: is the patio in a public space? Are there cameras 218 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: on you? Are you in a protected alcove? I'm trying 219 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: any get get a So there were Is there anybody 220 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 1: who's not a parent of one of the murdered children 221 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:13,640 Speaker 1: that that that is that's in the group, or their 222 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: lawyers there or their other law enforcement what is the 223 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 1: what is happening in that moment? 224 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 2: So so the Brower Sheriff's Office is a big, huge building. 225 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 2: Going into the building, you go through security. But the 226 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:34,360 Speaker 2: parking lot, anyone can park in the parking lot and 227 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,640 Speaker 2: walk up to this patio in front of the building, 228 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,919 Speaker 2: but typically you don't unless you have a reason to 229 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 2: be there. So you had our families there, there were 230 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 2: staff members of the governors, there was the new sheriff 231 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,439 Speaker 2: and some of his personnel, and there was media. Media 232 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 2: was there. This was a planned called for a press conference. 233 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 2: So there was a bit of a crowd. 234 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: And the governor gets out of his vehicle and he 235 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 1: comes up to all of you. 236 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:15,159 Speaker 2: So he and this has gone back quite a few years. 237 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 2: I don't believe I saw him arrive in his vehicle. 238 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 2: I believe he probably came in another door and walked 239 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:23,919 Speaker 2: out of the building and met us. There is the 240 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 2: way I recall it happening. But I can't tell you 241 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 2: with one hundred percent certainty. What I can tell you 242 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 2: is meeting him there was the first time, and then 243 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 2: we all went into the building and we had a 244 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:38,719 Speaker 2: few minutes with him in the building. 245 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: And what is meeting him like? Was he alone? Was 246 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:43,639 Speaker 1: he with his wife? 247 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 2: She was not there at this meeting with him. 248 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: If he walks up to you and he says what. 249 00:18:55,720 --> 00:19:00,919 Speaker 2: Not much, and that's honestly, that's all we my recollection 250 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,920 Speaker 2: of him, because I've met him personally multiple times now, 251 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 2: including in his own office in tallahasse He uncomfortable engagement 252 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 2: and just the straight up conversation like you and I 253 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:19,399 Speaker 2: are doing. It's not his normal thing, and I've just 254 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 2: found him awkward. 255 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: Did he say I'm sorry? Do you remember what his 256 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 1: first words were to the group? Did he address everybody individually? 257 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 1: Did he say Ron DeSantis? Did he introduce himself by name? 258 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 1: Did he say I'm your governor? How? 259 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 2: How? How did he. 260 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: Present himself to everyone individually or as a group? 261 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,199 Speaker 2: I I this is about five years ago. I just 262 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 2: I don't recall I recall. 263 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 4: That he gave a public statement at the podium, as 264 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 4: did I, as did some of the other family members, 265 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 4: and as did the new sheriff. 266 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 2: I don't recall him acknowledging each of us individually when 267 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 2: we were inside together as a group. You know, I'm 268 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 2: fairly confident he talk to us about accountability. That was 269 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 2: the that was kind of the focus a lot back then, 270 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 2: and how he's going to hold people accountable. I remember 271 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 2: there being conversation back then which turned out to be accurate, 272 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 2: that this is going to be an ongoing process because 273 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,679 Speaker 2: it's going to have to get approved, and you know, 274 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 2: he's going to need our help and our support. But 275 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 2: I don't remember specific words or or that kind of thing. 276 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 2: It's quite some time ago. 277 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 1: But but you found him to be less a memorable 278 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: I guess is the right stead. 279 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 2: Listen, I mean that is a that is a perfect 280 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:23,919 Speaker 2: way to sum it up. He there are people you 281 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 2: meet and you'll never forget it, right, I mean, there 282 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:34,439 Speaker 2: just are, and their words stay with you. There's not 283 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 2: a single thing he said to me other than the 284 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 2: use of the word accountability that stays with me. I 285 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 2: just what stays with me more than the words it's 286 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 2: just this awkward miss. It just wasn't something he felt 287 00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 2: comfortable with. And I remember, I can't remember exactly how 288 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 2: many months later it was, but a couple of months 289 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:10,440 Speaker 2: later when we were all in Tallahassee and and some 290 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 2: of the family members, including me, did testify in support 291 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 2: of the decision to remove the sheriff. I remember when 292 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 2: we were alone on lunch. You know, there's a big 293 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 2: room off to the side of his office where they 294 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 2: had prepared like sandwiches and stuff for us to have lunch. 295 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 2: And he came in to greet us, and and and again, 296 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 2: I think you just summed it up. It just wasn't memorable. 297 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:43,919 Speaker 2: He came in, there was some small talk, but but 298 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 2: I just felt like I was dealing with an awkward person. 299 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 1: Let's talk about Marco Rubio for a second. So I'm 300 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,640 Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna role play for a minute, and I'm 301 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 1: going to take the side of the of the Second 302 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: Amendment advocates and pretend that I'm a US senator and 303 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: I say to you, and I say, fred, I'm very sorry, 304 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:18,719 Speaker 1: tragedy is unspeakable. I'll vote to harden the infrastructure of 305 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 1: every school to fund cops but I don't believe government 306 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: has the authority to restrict firearms. 307 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 2: And so I'm sorry. 308 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 1: I suspect that is not what Marco Rubio says to 309 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 1: you when the doors are closed and the lights are 310 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,440 Speaker 1: and the camera lights are off, right, that he says 311 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: something very different. I could be wrong. What have you 312 00:23:53,720 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: learned about disingenuousness from show Rubio and his fellow travelers? 313 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: Is it something that you have previously experienced in life, 314 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: something that you knew existed in an abstract but sit 315 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 1: there on any given day and say, holy shit, he 316 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: I was sitting there and that guy looked me in 317 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,160 Speaker 1: the eye and he said A, B and C yeah, 318 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:30,640 Speaker 1: and then he went out in D E and F 319 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: what several years now really before of tragedy and a 320 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 1: PhD in politics that that has followed on. What have 321 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 1: you learned about disingenuousness? 322 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 2: So so so Marco, I've described him before, and I 323 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 2: just think it's an app description. Being with him alone 324 00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 2: in a room is like being with a dog its 325 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 2: tail who'll run you in circles, but you'll never get anywhere. 326 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 2: And I say that because so everyone knows how my 327 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 2: initiation to Marco began, which was the CNN town hall 328 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 2: a week after my daughter was killed, where I didn't 329 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 2: challenge him, and three weeks later I was in d 330 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 2: C for my very first visit. The day before I 331 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 2: went to d C, I was in the home of 332 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 2: a guy by the name of Al Hoffman, who many 333 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:41,119 Speaker 2: may know. He's a very wealthy man. He owned a 334 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,160 Speaker 2: company that basically built Parkland and many other big communities 335 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 2: around the country, and he was an extremely large Republican doughnor. 336 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 2: In fact, George Bush appointed him as an ambassador and 337 00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:02,919 Speaker 2: Al Hoffman was Marco Ruby's single biggest donor. After the 338 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,440 Speaker 2: Parking shooting, Al reached out to me a few days 339 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 2: later and said, I'd like to invite you to my home, 340 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,679 Speaker 2: and I went, and it was the day before I 341 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 2: met with Marco, three weeks after the shooting, and Al 342 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 2: told me that effective immediately, he will no longer support 343 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,919 Speaker 2: another Republican. It was not right on this issue. And 344 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 2: when I told him I was going to see Marco 345 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,679 Speaker 2: the next day, he said, well, you can tell Marco 346 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 2: for me that he's cut off, and so the reason 347 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 2: why that matters. I was in Marco's office the next 348 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,120 Speaker 2: day and Marco did exactly as you assumed he did. 349 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 2: We kind of ran in circles, going nowhere. I really 350 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 2: think we can do something here. You know, we've got 351 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:51,639 Speaker 2: to do a little thistle that happened, you know. So 352 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 2: I ended by saying, so, I'll tell you what. While 353 00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:02,920 Speaker 2: we stand here today, the Republican Florida House is debating 354 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 2: and going to vote on gun safety legislation that the 355 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 2: Republican Florida Senate passed yesterday, and the Republican Florida governor 356 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,360 Speaker 2: at the time, Rick Scott, said he will sign. Why 357 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 2: don't you walk out with me and say you support this. 358 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,879 Speaker 2: I think it'll help the Florida House members who are 359 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,439 Speaker 2: Republicans and sitting on the fence helped them to be 360 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,639 Speaker 2: able to move forward. And he said to me, I 361 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,119 Speaker 2: can't do that. And I said why. He goes, I 362 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 2: don't know what's in the bill. I said, yes, you do, 363 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 2: but I can pull it up on my phone for you. 364 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 2: He said, I can't do that. I said, that's the 365 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 2: problem you take from with the money you take from 366 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 2: the gun lobby. I said, however, you're going to lose 367 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 2: your traditional donors if you maintain that stance. And he goes, 368 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,360 Speaker 2: you can't say that. I said, yes I can. I said, 369 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,360 Speaker 2: do you know Al Hoffman and he said, yes, I do. 370 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 2: I said, I was with Al yesterday and Al has 371 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 2: a message for you. And he said what's that. I said, 372 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:10,160 Speaker 2: you're cut off. And Al put out a full page 373 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 2: ad in the Wall Street Journal days later, putting out 374 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 2: his plan. So here's the thing about Marco. I spent 375 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:22,679 Speaker 2: the next year regularly meeting with him in his office, 376 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 2: having phone conversations, trying to find a place where he 377 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 2: could feel like he was doing something on this issue. 378 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 2: But I felt like I was just going after that dog, 379 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 2: chasing his tail, running in circles, never really anything going 380 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 2: to happen. And I finally gave up, and I haven't 381 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 2: tried since that first year, because he was useless, he 382 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 2: was dishonest. He told me the things he was working 383 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 2: on that he wasn't and I gave up on him. 384 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 1: What frustrates you about the Democrats? 385 00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 2: Well, so I'll tell you. So I'll answer by saying 386 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 2: this because I don't want you to think I just 387 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 2: like all Republicans. I don't, you know, because I really 388 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 2: think it's important to know. I mean again, you're a 389 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 2: former Republican one of my closest friends and I was 390 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 2: former Congressman Joe Walsh, and and I hate this version 391 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 2: of your former party, but I really really believe anything 392 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 2: meaningful requires a bipartisan approach. What frustrates me about the Democrats, 393 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 2: especially some of them, is there as ideologically driven, just 394 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:42,959 Speaker 2: in another direction as some of the Republicans. And well, listen, 395 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 2: I think there are people who believe there's only one 396 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 2: way to solve a problem. And if you don't do 397 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 2: it this way, and I don't get everything that I want, 398 00:29:54,760 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 2: then I can't support it. And I don't believe anything 399 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 2: gets solved with that kind of with that kind of 400 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 2: an approach. The thing about the Democratic Party is when 401 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 2: I describe individuals that way, it's individuals in the party right, 402 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 2: versus this cor version of the Republican Party, where the 403 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 2: entire Republican Party has gone lockstep in the wrong direction 404 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 2: and none of them and the party apparatus is now stuck. There. 405 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 2: You have individuals in the party, in the Democratic Party 406 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 2: who do not agree with me. You know, I've not 407 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 2: I've tried over the years to work with Republicans. I 408 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 2: in my heart, i'd love to see an assault weapons 409 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 2: ban I haven't made it my primary cause because I 410 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 2: want to actually take really meaningful steps, whatever they are, 411 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 2: to lower the gun violence death rate. 412 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 1: What do you want you see happen as a matter 413 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 1: of public policy? What what should be done? 414 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 2: So number one would be a repeal of PLAKA Number two. 415 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 2: When Jamie was born twenty years ago, there were only 416 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 2: two hundred million weapons in America. Today, twenty years later, 417 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 2: we have over four hundred million plus ghost guns. When 418 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 2: Jamie was born twenty years ago, AR fifteen's were less 419 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 2: than two percent of all guns sold. Today they're twenty 420 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 2: five percent. The reality is those guns are on the 421 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 2: streets already. So I believe we need to do something 422 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 2: to address ammunition. I believe that we need to have 423 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 2: background checks on ammunition. If you are a prohibited user 424 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 2: of a firearm in America by law, you are also 425 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 2: prohibited from buying ammunition. But there's no requirement for a 426 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 2: background check on ammunition. And so anyone of the bad 427 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 2: guys who's got guns because they stole it, they trade 428 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 2: it for it, they got it somehow illicitly, they can 429 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 2: walk into a store and buy the bullets and nobody 430 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 2: will check, I believe, And there is currently a law 431 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 2: sitting in Congress called Jamie's Law, named after my daughter, 432 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 2: that seeks to extend background checks to ammunition. I think 433 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 2: that lowers the gun violence death rate immediately. I would 434 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 2: also ban high capacity magazines. I would raise the age 435 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 2: for all firearms purchases to twenty one. That doesn't mean 436 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 2: you can't be on your own private property using a firearm, 437 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 2: but to purchase you should be twenty one. You know, 438 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 2: that's just a basic list. And again, in my heart, 439 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 2: I would love to see a ban on air of fifteens. 440 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 2: I also understand the politics of this country and where 441 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 2: we're at, and that's a that I just don't know 442 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 2: that we can win. But I want to do whatever 443 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 2: we can do right now that will lower the gun 444 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 2: violence death rate, decrease the instances of gun violence, and 445 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 2: reduce the severity of gun violence injuries. When gun violence happens. 446 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 1: What percentage of these school shootings have being committed by 447 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 1: an AR fifteen? 448 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 2: Do you know the answer? So let me take this 449 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 2: further step back from that. So there's about one hundred 450 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 2: and fifteen thousand schools in America. Since Columbine, there have 451 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 2: been fewer than four hundred school shootings. And I don't 452 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 2: say that to minimize the idea of school shootings, because 453 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 2: gun violence is far more diverse than just what happens 454 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 2: in schools. But the truth is a lot of there's 455 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 2: not a lot of school shootings. When they happen, they're 456 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 2: horrific and they are tragic, trust me, I know. But 457 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 2: it's not as if the big issues of school violence 458 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 2: involved guns. I will tell you, as a percentage of 459 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 2: the four hundred or so that have happened, I don't 460 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 2: know the percentage of those that have been done with 461 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 2: our fifteens, I would suspect it's it's quite a few, 462 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 2: but I don't have a percentage for you. 463 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: I would suspect that it's an overwhelming number. But I 464 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 1: was struck by something that you said generationally Columbine in 465 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:31,879 Speaker 1: ninety seven, there was the jones Borough shooting in ninety four. YEP, 466 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 1: I don't remember any before that. Well, was this was 467 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 1: this a phenomenon? Now I was, I was twenty three. 468 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 2: I wasn't. I don't. 469 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,239 Speaker 1: I don't remember a lot of the college years, you know, 470 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 1: being being dialed into any of this. But I I 471 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 1: just I don't. I have no awareness before that Jones 472 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:55,480 Speaker 1: borrough shooting of this existing. 473 00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:00,359 Speaker 2: At a at a school, right right shooting level. What 474 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 2: you just said is the reason I wrote the book 475 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,720 Speaker 2: in American Cartriage, Okay, which takes on the lives and events, 476 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 2: because it wasn't a problem before. So as a country, 477 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 2: this is a relatively new phenomen for us. You know, 478 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 2: we have always been a country with gun safety laws. 479 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 2: We've always been a country of gun owners who respected 480 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:31,279 Speaker 2: safety of people, who believed in responsible firearms ownership. And 481 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 2: in fact, we've always been a country that passed laws 482 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:41,799 Speaker 2: to ensure that safety wasn't happening, that guns weren't in 483 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:45,400 Speaker 2: the hands of responsible people. Here's when it started to 484 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 2: change and why you're you're one hundred percent correct in 485 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 2: your recollection. In nineteen seventy seven, in Cincinnati, the NRA 486 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 2: was holding a convention where they were taken over by 487 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,319 Speaker 2: a guy by the name of Harlan Carter. You may 488 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:05,319 Speaker 2: have heard the name, maybe not. Harlan Carter. Nobody knew 489 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 2: it at the time was a convicted murder but he 490 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,239 Speaker 2: changed a vowel in his name from an A, you know, 491 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 2: an E or an I don't remember what it was, 492 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:18,239 Speaker 2: but nobody knew that, and Harlan ran the NRA for 493 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 2: a whole bunch of years. He's the guy who brought 494 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:24,319 Speaker 2: Wayne Lapierre in and he's the one who set the 495 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:28,799 Speaker 2: NRA on this new course to get involved in politics, 496 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 2: to raise money and to push legislation. And through the 497 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:38,239 Speaker 2: eighties they really laid all the groundwork. But in the 498 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 2: nineties you started to see laws shifting. There were Shaw 499 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,400 Speaker 2: Carrie laws, and the big big shift really took place 500 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:51,440 Speaker 2: after two thousand in Florida with Sandra ground in two 501 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 2: thousand and five. So the idea of these shootings all 502 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 2: over the it wasn't our country's history. It's a relatively 503 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:10,360 Speaker 2: new phenomenon. AR fifteen's I told you before it twenty 504 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,319 Speaker 2: years ago. They were fewer than two percent of all 505 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 2: guns sold. It wasn't the ban ending in two thousand 506 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:20,840 Speaker 2: and four that changed that either, because if you go 507 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,279 Speaker 2: to two thousand and eight, they were still fewer than 508 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:26,879 Speaker 2: five percent of all guns sold. In two thousand and eight, 509 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 2: two things happened, and I have my theory on which 510 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:34,799 Speaker 2: one had the bigger impact. One was President Obama. That 511 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,440 Speaker 2: was one thing that happened. A lot of people believe 512 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 2: that led to the surgeon Air fifteen seals. I have 513 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,319 Speaker 2: another theory, and I think if I could get this 514 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:47,360 Speaker 2: gets back to plocam. There was a big Supreme Court decision, 515 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 2: and in that Supreme Court decision, antonin Scala, as we 516 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:58,520 Speaker 2: all know, had some really important things to say on guns. 517 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 2: But one of the things that he said was the 518 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 2: term in his decision common use. He defined common use 519 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,239 Speaker 2: literally added a term to the whole debate, and he 520 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 2: said in that Supreme Court decision, any weapon in common 521 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:18,359 Speaker 2: use at the time can't be restricted. Now that never 522 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 2: existed before two thousand and eight. And the reason why 523 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:23,759 Speaker 2: that matters it was after two thousand and eight where 524 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 2: you saw the explosion in AR fifteen sales. It is now. 525 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:34,359 Speaker 2: I would argue the industry went on a business strategy 526 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,720 Speaker 2: following that Supreme Court decision, the hell or Supreme Court decision, 527 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 2: I would argue, they went on a business strategy of 528 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 2: producing weapons in a mass quantity year after year after 529 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:49,080 Speaker 2: year for fifteen years, putting them into a position where 530 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,840 Speaker 2: you now have Republicans in Congress claiming you can't do 531 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 2: anything about them because they are in common use. I 532 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,640 Speaker 2: think that two thousand and eight Supreme Court strategy set 533 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 2: off a business that we now have to live with, 534 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,320 Speaker 2: But it wasn't always this way. You are absolutely correct 535 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,480 Speaker 2: to look back just thirty years ago and say I 536 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,240 Speaker 2: don't remember it being like this because it wasn't. 537 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:17,279 Speaker 1: Does that mean, in your interpretation of it, or understanding 538 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:20,760 Speaker 1: of your interpretation of it, that the AR fifteen could 539 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:24,919 Speaker 1: not be added to the nineteen thirty four Federal Firearms 540 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:26,880 Speaker 1: Act as a prohibited weapon? 541 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:34,680 Speaker 2: Listen, Ted, my dear friend Ted Deutsch really thought strongly 542 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 2: of that idea, and I agree with him. I think 543 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:42,880 Speaker 2: that's a solution. I hope it's a solution that people 544 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:48,439 Speaker 2: will pursue more assertively should there not be the possibility 545 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 2: of a band. The AR fifteen is not a weapon 546 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 2: that we all grew up with, just as you know 547 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:02,239 Speaker 2: in our homes. It's only a fifteen year phenomenon in 548 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,400 Speaker 2: our lives, and we see the impact of that now. 549 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:11,680 Speaker 1: Would I think that the strategy that should be adopted 550 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 1: by the gun lobby and gun safety advocates in this 551 00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:21,840 Speaker 1: country is very simple. The overwhelming majority of mass shootings 552 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:28,560 Speaker 1: are conducted by AR fifteen's and what I think is 553 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:33,759 Speaker 1: very simple, clean piece of legislation, right somebody walks to 554 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 1: the Senate floor, they can put one together on it. 555 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,840 Speaker 1: I think they can carry weapons on the floor of 556 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:42,920 Speaker 1: the Congress. They can hold it up and say, I'm 557 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,759 Speaker 1: going to add this weapon now all of its derivatives 558 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:51,920 Speaker 1: to the nineteen thirty four Federal Firearms Act, which includes 559 00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:57,239 Speaker 1: sought off shotguns and the Thompson submachine gun, for the 560 00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:01,360 Speaker 1: sake of proving to every Second an Amendment advocate that 561 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,799 Speaker 1: you can have both the Second Amendment and a category 562 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:09,480 Speaker 1: of weapon that is illegal, as we have had for 563 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 1: ninety years in America. And the idea that seems to 564 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:18,920 Speaker 1: have been stomped out, faded to dust, is the idea 565 00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:24,919 Speaker 1: that a ban of a weapon or a category thereof 566 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,360 Speaker 1: is inconsistent with the Second Amendment, which for nearly one 567 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:31,759 Speaker 1: hundred years it has not been, and the inability to 568 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:37,040 Speaker 1: articulate that and to say, this weapon of mass death 569 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:42,520 Speaker 1: we are going to make illegal. We're adding it to 570 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:48,280 Speaker 1: the nineteen thirty four law with some type of grandfathered 571 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:51,840 Speaker 1: clause in there. And then, secondly to what you said, 572 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:56,040 Speaker 1: and I think this is such an important point. We're 573 00:41:56,080 --> 00:42:03,720 Speaker 1: not talking about saying gun kill people, and therefore gun 574 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 1: companies should be sued. What we're saying is that gun 575 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:16,359 Speaker 1: companies should not have a special law that says they 576 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:21,480 Speaker 1: are immune from the law. The protections afforded to the 577 00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:27,600 Speaker 1: gun companies come from the law, and therefore, if someone 578 00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 1: should seek to sue them, their protections will be found 579 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:37,319 Speaker 1: as a defendant under the laws of whatever jurisdiction that 580 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:41,480 Speaker 1: they're sued in, Meaning that the gun companies should be 581 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:47,280 Speaker 1: treated like every other company and every other human being 582 00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:52,120 Speaker 1: right that exists under the jurisdiction of the courts of 583 00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:53,080 Speaker 1: the United States. 584 00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:57,080 Speaker 2: And that's all I want, and I'm so glad you're 585 00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:01,480 Speaker 2: making that clear. Listen, I don't want to sue them 586 00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,239 Speaker 2: for a paycheck. I want to assume them because I 587 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:09,839 Speaker 2: want the documents. I want the tobacco Loman that forces 588 00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:14,400 Speaker 2: safety to be the paramount concern. I think if we 589 00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:15,240 Speaker 2: get them money. 590 00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,920 Speaker 1: And there's zero chance it's not there, right, I mean 591 00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:19,840 Speaker 1: there's zero chance it's not there. 592 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:23,480 Speaker 2: One hundred if we get them under road, and if 593 00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:27,600 Speaker 2: we have the chance to interview them, I just believe, 594 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,520 Speaker 2: I'm certain of it that we can prove that they 595 00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:35,000 Speaker 2: had a business strategy, because again, go back fifteen years 596 00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,760 Speaker 2: when this all started they said these were for hunting 597 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,120 Speaker 2: and sport. Those are really small and by the way, 598 00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:45,400 Speaker 2: the clining marketplace at the time. Okay, I think we 599 00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:50,279 Speaker 2: can show that they knowingly produced far in excess of 600 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:53,960 Speaker 2: what they knew their market they said was at the time, 601 00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:57,600 Speaker 2: and continue to do so, and that in doing so 602 00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:01,960 Speaker 2: they then developed new market strategies to continue to push 603 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,400 Speaker 2: these onto our streets and into the hands of kids 604 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,319 Speaker 2: like the one who killed my daughter, And that they 605 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:11,080 Speaker 2: knew it would happen, and that they had no plan 606 00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:15,680 Speaker 2: for safety, that they had no plan to ensure these 607 00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:17,600 Speaker 2: guns wouldn't be used in the way that we now 608 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:21,160 Speaker 2: see them being used, that they had a business strategy 609 00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:25,640 Speaker 2: to put them into common use as defined by the 610 00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:29,360 Speaker 2: hell Or decision without regard for safety. I want to 611 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,120 Speaker 2: prove that I want America to hear it from them, 612 00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,480 Speaker 2: not for me, and I want America to see what 613 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:39,680 Speaker 2: they've done to our country to make it less safe, 614 00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,840 Speaker 2: so that that kind of accountability, just like it happened 615 00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:49,759 Speaker 2: with tobacco, will force change that allows gun owners to 616 00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:56,319 Speaker 2: go forward. Rights respected, but safety also as a consideration. 617 00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:01,000 Speaker 1: There's been an immense culture change as you As you said, 618 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:06,680 Speaker 1: anybody who was a gun fetishist in the era that 619 00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:09,319 Speaker 1: we grew up in would have been looked upon as 620 00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:13,640 Speaker 1: a weirdo. Anybody who was a gun owner, who was 621 00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:18,799 Speaker 1: part of a gun owning family, a hunting family. You know, 622 00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:22,720 Speaker 1: when you talked about guns, safety was the paramount issue 623 00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:26,080 Speaker 1: when you talked about them. You know, it was not 624 00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:30,480 Speaker 1: people did not dress up like they were in malitias, 625 00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:35,400 Speaker 1: in camouflage patterns. I mean, all of that, as you said, 626 00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:38,440 Speaker 1: is a is a recent phenomenon. Let me ask you 627 00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:43,040 Speaker 1: this question. What about the idea of saying to the 628 00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:50,279 Speaker 1: Department of Defense, under law, you can't buy ammunition from 629 00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:53,480 Speaker 1: anybody who also sells on the civilian market. 630 00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:00,360 Speaker 2: I love that idea, you know, which. 631 00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:03,480 Speaker 1: Would raise the price of ammunition on the SIVI, on 632 00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:08,040 Speaker 1: the on the civilian market as it as the manufacturing 633 00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:12,480 Speaker 1: and collapsed. You could further tax it, right, and you 634 00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:19,160 Speaker 1: could impose all sorts of burdensome mail regulations over it. 635 00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:24,120 Speaker 1: And I just wonder, and I just wonder when you 636 00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,080 Speaker 1: when you think about it, how much energy is there 637 00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:31,160 Speaker 1: in the movement too fundamentally put the gun business out 638 00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:35,359 Speaker 1: of business and be transparent and be transparent about it 639 00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:39,120 Speaker 1: to affect it as is to say, listen, if you're 640 00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:43,240 Speaker 1: making a hunting rifle, right, a high quality hunting rifle, 641 00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:47,880 Speaker 1: you know you're you're not You're not not part of 642 00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,799 Speaker 1: this fight, right. You know no one's but you know 643 00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:55,520 Speaker 1: you're selling AR fifteen's, you're selling semi automatic weapons of war. 644 00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:59,960 Speaker 1: You're trying to establish them as a really common house 645 00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:06,239 Speaker 1: fold weapon, creating a profound societal danger. We're going to 646 00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:07,759 Speaker 1: do everything to break your back. 647 00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:13,680 Speaker 2: Shouldn't it be that intentional? You know? After Jamie was killed, 648 00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:19,640 Speaker 2: the day after, I attended this vigil in Parkland that 649 00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:22,040 Speaker 2: I ended up being asked to speak at. I did, 650 00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,440 Speaker 2: And it was that night speaking there that for the 651 00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:27,799 Speaker 2: first time in twenty four hours, it hit me that 652 00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:30,480 Speaker 2: this was gun violence. I did this to my family, 653 00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:33,840 Speaker 2: and I went into my house that night after speaking, 654 00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:35,960 Speaker 2: I said, I'm going to break that effing gun lobby. 655 00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:44,080 Speaker 2: And days later, Governor Phil Murphy of New Jersey called me. 656 00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:47,839 Speaker 2: He got my number. We had a mutual connection and 657 00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:51,279 Speaker 2: I stayed very close with him ever since. And he said, 658 00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:52,799 Speaker 2: and he was a new governor at the time, and 659 00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:56,360 Speaker 2: he said, so tell me what breaking the gun lobby 660 00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:00,040 Speaker 2: means to you. How can that happen? I said, go 661 00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:05,040 Speaker 2: after the money, go after the money, and I guess 662 00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:07,640 Speaker 2: I forgot that. I said that to him, but I 663 00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:09,920 Speaker 2: was with him not long ago and he reminded me 664 00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:14,800 Speaker 2: about it. But New Jersey has done that. Other states 665 00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:17,600 Speaker 2: are doing that. You got to who buys more guns? 666 00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:22,120 Speaker 2: You know, state governors through law enforcement, they buy a 667 00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:25,759 Speaker 2: lot of guns. And so New Jersey has gone out 668 00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,319 Speaker 2: of their way now to make sure anyone who they 669 00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:33,440 Speaker 2: do business with for law enforcement and other groups has 670 00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:36,640 Speaker 2: to meet a certain kind of criteria in terms of 671 00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:41,160 Speaker 2: how they do business in the state. If everybody commits 672 00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:47,160 Speaker 2: to a safety criteria, to a certain kind of approach 673 00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:50,640 Speaker 2: to how we market these weapons, who we sell them to, 674 00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:55,160 Speaker 2: how we produce them, what we're producing because let's face it, 675 00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:59,200 Speaker 2: you see all these manufacturers trying to make even more 676 00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,160 Speaker 2: and more are more deadly weapons to show up on 677 00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:06,680 Speaker 2: our streets on a daily basis. Okay, if governors say 678 00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:09,799 Speaker 2: to those companies, we're done doing business with you, you 679 00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:14,360 Speaker 2: won't be able to sell here. That could have a 680 00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:18,240 Speaker 2: huge approach go after the money, and Department of Defense 681 00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:23,200 Speaker 2: hadn't even thought of it in that scale. I think 682 00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:24,920 Speaker 2: that's a great idea when. 683 00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:31,120 Speaker 1: You think about all of this that has happened to you, 684 00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:38,120 Speaker 1: your family, the sixteen other families, there is after the 685 00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:45,160 Speaker 1: next incident of violence applatitude that's almost a profanity at 686 00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:48,520 Speaker 1: this point, right, which is, now's not the time. 687 00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:52,760 Speaker 2: Now's not the time to talk about this, Yeah. 688 00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:59,440 Speaker 1: And so on this issue, certainly in the media. And 689 00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:03,759 Speaker 1: I'm very cynical about this, and and I and and 690 00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:09,800 Speaker 1: I'm humbled by by your by your by your optimism, 691 00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:13,799 Speaker 1: deeply so and and deeply respectful of it. 692 00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:18,560 Speaker 2: But each time, when. 693 00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:21,880 Speaker 1: We're when we're when we're told now's not the time, 694 00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:26,680 Speaker 1: we're not even able to have at an elementary level 695 00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:33,920 Speaker 1: a baseline conversation about what the nature of the problem is. 696 00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:40,200 Speaker 1: So the easy availability of what is an essence, a 697 00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:46,920 Speaker 1: military weapon in the hands of someone who aspires to 698 00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:52,279 Speaker 1: be a mass killer, the the ease of of acquiring 699 00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:56,880 Speaker 1: that that weapon is is certainly at the at the 700 00:50:56,920 --> 00:51:04,919 Speaker 1: core of the issue. But isn't also the evil of 701 00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:09,880 Speaker 1: the person? How do you think about that? We have 702 00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:15,320 Speaker 1: an evil person problem? Do we have a mental health 703 00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:23,560 Speaker 1: evil person problem? How do you think about the manifestation 704 00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:29,520 Speaker 1: of evil along with that? With that weapon and and 705 00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:32,839 Speaker 1: do you think about it, do you think about it 706 00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:36,360 Speaker 1: like that at all? And one of the things that 707 00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:38,600 Speaker 1: you had said earlier I want to I want to 708 00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:43,840 Speaker 1: come back to is in the next question is the 709 00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:47,120 Speaker 1: country has always been a violent place, one of the 710 00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:54,400 Speaker 1: most violent societies on earth, because right the society moved 711 00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:57,359 Speaker 1: ahead of the law and the and the first thing 712 00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,560 Speaker 1: the law always did is when it caught up with 713 00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:05,560 Speaker 1: the society as it moved out on the frontier, was 714 00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:09,240 Speaker 1: imposed some type of restrictions on the use of firearms. 715 00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:13,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. So listen, there's two things you just talked about, 716 00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:15,879 Speaker 2: which is what is the right time to talk about it? 717 00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:20,480 Speaker 2: And for me, the right time was actually before it 718 00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:23,919 Speaker 2: was my kid and I was silent and I'll never 719 00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:26,560 Speaker 2: get over it, and I'm never going to shut up. 720 00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:31,319 Speaker 2: And I think after Parkland we put an end to 721 00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:37,040 Speaker 2: those lunatics who told us that we shouldn't be talking 722 00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:43,080 Speaker 2: about this, that we should remain silent, that we should 723 00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:48,160 Speaker 2: allow things to go forward. And we haven't stopped fighting 724 00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:50,440 Speaker 2: since the day my daughter was killed. And it's not 725 00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:52,960 Speaker 2: just me, and we're never going to shut up. And 726 00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:56,040 Speaker 2: after every instance of gun violence, I tried to be 727 00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:59,880 Speaker 2: as immediate as I can to be out there and 728 00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:03,960 Speaker 2: talking about it, because because the gun lobby has owned 729 00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:09,680 Speaker 2: this space for far too long. For an example, after 730 00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:13,759 Speaker 2: Sandy Hook, they remained. The gun lobby stayed out of 731 00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:16,520 Speaker 2: Sandy Hook for about five days. They gave the families 732 00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:19,040 Speaker 2: time to just kind of say their things and go 733 00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:22,360 Speaker 2: through the funerals. And after about a week, Wayne la 734 00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:26,680 Speaker 2: Pierre came out and said, the only thing that stuffs 735 00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:28,480 Speaker 2: a bad guy with a gun is a good guy 736 00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:32,279 Speaker 2: with a gun. That sentence never existed before Sandy Hook. 737 00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:35,200 Speaker 2: It was a it's like we think about it now, 738 00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:37,240 Speaker 2: it's like we feels like it's been with us forever. 739 00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:42,600 Speaker 2: It came about after Sandy Hook, and that was the 740 00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:45,000 Speaker 2: n race response to Sandy Hook, and they turned it 741 00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:47,960 Speaker 2: into a gun sales bonanza. They will never do that 742 00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:52,000 Speaker 2: on my watch. I will never be silent. I will 743 00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:54,920 Speaker 2: never ever back down, and neither will the others in 744 00:53:54,960 --> 00:54:01,160 Speaker 2: this movement. As for society, we do have violent people 745 00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:03,719 Speaker 2: in our society. It's why I'm a huge supporter of 746 00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:09,239 Speaker 2: law enforcement. Evil exists, It always did. Evil exists in 747 00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:14,640 Speaker 2: other countries. It always did. What is uniquely different now 748 00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:21,360 Speaker 2: is how firearms have become a part of the reality 749 00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:25,440 Speaker 2: that evil exists. When we've more than doubled our arsenal 750 00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:28,839 Speaker 2: in this country in twenty years, and in that mix 751 00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:32,920 Speaker 2: is far more deadly weapons. We've taken the reality that 752 00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:36,080 Speaker 2: evil exists and we've made it easy for them to 753 00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:40,839 Speaker 2: kill as many as possible. That's what's different now. So 754 00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:43,520 Speaker 2: I think we need to do everything we can to 755 00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:46,200 Speaker 2: stop evil. I think we need to do everything we 756 00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:50,120 Speaker 2: can to help those who have mental health issues. The 757 00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:53,279 Speaker 2: reality is most of them are turning guns on themselves. 758 00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:57,480 Speaker 2: I think we also need to deal with the reality 759 00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:01,720 Speaker 2: that far too many people with evil intent have easy 760 00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:04,320 Speaker 2: access to weapons. Here's what I think. 761 00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:11,560 Speaker 1: I think that one of the great blessings that America 762 00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:19,279 Speaker 1: has had, almost providentially, it has produced, seemingly out of nowhere, 763 00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:24,640 Speaker 1: the right leaders in the right moments. Great example of 764 00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:28,880 Speaker 1: that is Dwight Eisenhower and nineteen thirty nine is a 765 00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:33,280 Speaker 1: lieutenant colonel in the army hasn't been promoted in thirteen 766 00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:39,959 Speaker 1: fourteen years, frustrated mid level officer. And when you look 767 00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:45,080 Speaker 1: at the improbable leaders who rose to greatness in the 768 00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:50,319 Speaker 1: country and made a difference, what they all have in 769 00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:54,680 Speaker 1: common is a depth of character, and that's what you 770 00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:59,200 Speaker 1: share with those people. And I think that you are 771 00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:03,680 Speaker 1: a person who has played and is going to continue 772 00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:07,799 Speaker 1: to play a vitally important role in our country and 773 00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:13,160 Speaker 1: its debates in this urgent issue. And I do hope 774 00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:17,160 Speaker 1: that you will reconsider as a young guy at age 775 00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:23,399 Speaker 1: fifty seven, because the remedy for the dipshit problem that 776 00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:27,600 Speaker 1: we are flooded with in Washington, d C. Are people 777 00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:31,799 Speaker 1: of courage and conviction who will not make compromises or 778 00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:35,640 Speaker 1: accommodation on right and wrong, and who also don't want 779 00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:39,600 Speaker 1: to spend eighteen years in Washington, d C. Six years 780 00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:41,920 Speaker 1: would be more than enough to go up there for 781 00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:46,400 Speaker 1: part of your sixties, to raise a little hell, travel around, 782 00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:50,960 Speaker 1: see the military, do some good, right, and you know, 783 00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:52,720 Speaker 1: and and come on back. 784 00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:53,040 Speaker 2: Right. 785 00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:56,239 Speaker 1: So one of the things that you know we talk 786 00:56:56,320 --> 00:56:58,839 Speaker 1: about on this show is that you know, whether it's 787 00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:01,799 Speaker 1: at a local level, whether it's at a state level, 788 00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:04,160 Speaker 1: at a national level, you have to be involved. And 789 00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:09,839 Speaker 1: nobody when you look at Fred Gutenberg and you look 790 00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:13,239 Speaker 1: at his courage, you look at his moral stamina, you 791 00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:17,520 Speaker 1: look at his resiliency, and you look at his inspiration, 792 00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:21,360 Speaker 1: has any standing to say that they don't have the 793 00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:25,960 Speaker 1: space in their lives to be engaged. And there we 794 00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:30,400 Speaker 1: see Jamie sitting like an angel on Fred's wing, an 795 00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:32,960 Speaker 1: inspirational all of us. And what an honor it has 796 00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:35,240 Speaker 1: been to be able to spend this time with you, sir. 797 00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:38,560 Speaker 1: Thank you, well, my friend. 798 00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:44,240 Speaker 2: Thank you. I'm humbled by your your comments there. I 799 00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:50,160 Speaker 2: appreciate it. Listen. I I always just want to be 800 00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:55,439 Speaker 2: Jesse and Jamie's dad. It's who I am. Fortunately, I've 801 00:57:55,480 --> 00:58:00,000 Speaker 2: developed access in DC that gives me the a billy 802 00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:02,440 Speaker 2: to work with those who want to do well, and 803 00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:06,120 Speaker 2: there's a lot of them, by the way, and to 804 00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:09,920 Speaker 2: harass those who don't. And I plan to continue doing that. 805 00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:16,000 Speaker 2: I you know, I can't tell you politics are in 806 00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:20,640 Speaker 2: my future as a candidate, but I can promise you this, 807 00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:22,960 Speaker 2: I'm gonna keep fighting like hell. 808 00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:28,919 Speaker 1: Well, Fred, you will always be that and much more. 809 00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:30,680 Speaker 1: Thank you very much for your time today. 810 00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:31,560 Speaker 2: Thank you