WEBVTT - Tom Doak - Part 2

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<v Speaker 1>All right, we are back with part two of our

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<v Speaker 1>podcast with Tom Doak. If you miss part one, check

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<v Speaker 1>it out on our iTunes page or on our website. Also,

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<v Speaker 1>if you enjoy the podcast, please rate us or leave

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<v Speaker 1>a review in iTunes. And without further ado, here is

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<v Speaker 1>Tom Doak.

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<v Speaker 2>I miss a green for example, I'm already upset.

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<v Speaker 3>When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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<v Speaker 3>And when I find my ball.

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<v Speaker 2>In a brid egg Frida egg, the dreaded Friday Friday,

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<v Speaker 2>Frida egg brid egg Frida egg bride egg Lie, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>about ready to run.

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<v Speaker 3>Off of the course. I wanted to talk a little

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<v Speaker 3>bit about.

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<v Speaker 4>Your life as a golf course critic and you know

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<v Speaker 4>the travels and you know, obviously playing great golf courses

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<v Speaker 4>and seeing different architecture has to help your architectural career.

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<v Speaker 4>But for a golfer with limited accessibility, what what would

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<v Speaker 4>be your three destinations abroader in the States that you

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<v Speaker 4>would recommend traveling to.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh man, it's a big question. It's a big world. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, you know, Scotland and Ireland are geared to

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<v Speaker 2>the golf tourist that you know isn't necessarily a member

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<v Speaker 2>of a club. I mean, you don't have to have

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<v Speaker 2>any clouds to go play Valley Bunty and you just

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<v Speaker 2>sign up in advance and pay the green feet and

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<v Speaker 2>you're there and you know, and you know, you're you're

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<v Speaker 2>getting to see some of the best courses in the world,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, most don't have that much experience with

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<v Speaker 2>links golf, so you know, and you're getting to see

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<v Speaker 2>the game the way it started and why it started

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<v Speaker 2>that way. You know, if you you know, if you

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<v Speaker 2>get to spend long enough over there, you know, like

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<v Speaker 2>I did spend any year over there after college, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it really becomes a part of you that you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's just a different ethos of golf. So you know,

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<v Speaker 2>that would always be my first choice, and I you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I get back there fairly regularly, although kind of with

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<v Speaker 2>my book project, I've committed myself to go in other

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<v Speaker 2>places and i'd you know, I'd be happy just going

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<v Speaker 2>back to England or Scotland all the time. But but

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<v Speaker 2>I've still got some places that I want to see.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, Australia is pretty much the same. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>the best courses in Australia, Well, now there's a couple

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<v Speaker 2>of them like Barn Google that and the new ones

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<v Speaker 2>in King Island that are open to the public. But

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<v Speaker 2>you know, even a place like you know, it helps

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit if you can write and say I'm

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<v Speaker 2>a member of a club in the state, but I

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<v Speaker 2>think you can play them even if you're not, if

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<v Speaker 2>you write a nice letter. And those are tremendous golf courses,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, and again you know, they have a

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<v Speaker 2>lot to teach us too, especially in terms of like

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<v Speaker 2>how they use water on golf courses and how dry

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<v Speaker 2>and firm they keep it because it doesn't rain much

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<v Speaker 2>in Sydney and Melbourne and they have to be more

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<v Speaker 2>efficient with water. And you know, California has a lot

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<v Speaker 2>to learn from Australia and how to manage water and

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<v Speaker 2>golf courses. And you know, you'll never see bunkering like

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<v Speaker 2>that anywhere else. You'll never see a bunch of Part

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<v Speaker 2>three is as good as you'll see like on every

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<v Speaker 2>course at Melbourne. So that's a great destination, kind of

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<v Speaker 2>a once in a lifetime place for most people, but

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<v Speaker 2>definitely worth the trip. And then you know, there's a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of great resorts in America, and you know, I'll

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<v Speaker 2>play abandoned dunes. I mean, you know, being able to

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<v Speaker 2>go there for a few days and you know and

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<v Speaker 2>just stay there and play all those courses and see

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<v Speaker 2>how different they are, and you know, it really does

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<v Speaker 2>feel like like something in the West of Ireland or

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<v Speaker 2>or somewhere in Britain in terms of how the golf

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<v Speaker 2>courses play. You know, it's a tremendous place to go

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<v Speaker 2>and it's it's a cool thing to have been a

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<v Speaker 2>part of.

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<v Speaker 4>And everybody gets gets the chance to play two of

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<v Speaker 4>your golf courses.

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<v Speaker 3>So that's a that's a big cluss.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm plugging my own work there. You know, I've

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<v Speaker 2>done I've done some stuff in Australia.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, So what course did you go to, whether it's

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<v Speaker 4>public or private in the States where you walked in

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<v Speaker 4>with very low expectations and were most pleasantly surprised.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, that's happened a lot over the years. Although it's

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<v Speaker 2>you know, it's to do now. I mean, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I remember like going to Cruden Bay for the first

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<v Speaker 2>time in Scotland and you know, in nineteen eighty two

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<v Speaker 2>and I'd only ever seen one picture of it, so

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I you know, I knew just enough to know, well,

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<v Speaker 2>this could be pretty exciting because it's one picture looks

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<v Speaker 2>like it's pretty spectacular piece of land. But I had

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<v Speaker 2>no idea what the golf hols are going to be

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<v Speaker 2>like until I got there, and that, you know, that

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<v Speaker 2>sense of discovery of going around it for the first

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<v Speaker 2>time and being all these pool and wild things. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>we've kind of lost that a little now because any

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<v Speaker 2>any golf course you want to know about you can

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<v Speaker 2>find a thousand pictures of on the internet now. But

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<v Speaker 2>I still go places that that I'm surprised that, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>even if I've seen some pictures of them, it's like,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, either because they've done a good restoration or

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<v Speaker 2>because you know, they're just not you know, usually it's

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<v Speaker 2>it tends to be private clubs, so they're you know,

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<v Speaker 2>they're not marketing it. Like you know, the trip I

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<v Speaker 2>made last year that was a real eye opener was

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<v Speaker 2>going going across Iowa. You know, there's like there's no

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<v Speaker 2>golf courses in Iowa that are raided in the Golf

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<v Speaker 2>Digest or Golf magazine lists, and and you know, there's

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<v Speaker 2>no Alistair McKenzie courses or Killing Half courses, so you know,

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<v Speaker 2>there's there's not anything about it where you think, well,

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<v Speaker 2>oh yeah, that's going to be a different golf destination.

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<v Speaker 2>But you know, the first course I saw you you know,

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<v Speaker 2>if you're if you're coming from the east, you go

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<v Speaker 2>across the Mississippi River and you're there in the Quad

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<v Speaker 2>Cities region and the very first golf course when you

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<v Speaker 2>go across the bridge about two miles is an Allison

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<v Speaker 2>course called Daventort country Clubs. Is it's just their restoration

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<v Speaker 2>of is a terrific golf course. I mean, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we do consulting for Milwaukee Country Club and the Country

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<v Speaker 2>Club of Detroit, which are two of the best Allison

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<v Speaker 2>courses in the States. And I thought this was better

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<v Speaker 2>than the two them. Wow. And yet nobody's you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I've never heard that from anybody. So you know, again,

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<v Speaker 2>it's a private club is in Iowa, and they don't

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<v Speaker 2>market themselves at all, So who's going to know that? Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, and it was part of the reason

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<v Speaker 2>it's not on the Golf Died just list. Until their renovation,

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<v Speaker 2>it was only like sixty three or sixty four hundred yards,

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<v Speaker 2>so they were dismissing it on that basis. And it's

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<v Speaker 2>still you know now at sixty seven hundred, which is

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<v Speaker 2>just plenty for me. But there's there's probably some golf died,

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<v Speaker 2>just panelists who think that's not fun enough.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, I then we're both on that same page with

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<v Speaker 4>with the with the panel ratings.

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<v Speaker 2>But but there were like five or six courses in

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<v Speaker 2>Iowa that I really thought were pretty cool. And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>one of them was a Donald Ross course Sea Rapids

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<v Speaker 2>that they just renovated and did a great job with.

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<v Speaker 2>One of them was a Perry Maxwell course, the one

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<v Speaker 2>for Iowa State University as a typically wild Perry Maxwell

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<v Speaker 2>green on it, you know. And there was a new

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<v Speaker 2>course outside of Des Moines that Keith Foster did which

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<v Speaker 2>is probably the best, the best solo design of his career.

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<v Speaker 2>So there was really a lot there. And it's just

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<v Speaker 2>the fact that they're private and they don't you know,

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<v Speaker 2>they're not like northern Michigan where they pool their advertising

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<v Speaker 2>dollars and run ads and golf digest so you don't

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<v Speaker 2>hear anything about it. M h.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's it.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm in the state next to Iowa, and I have

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<v Speaker 4>played no golf in Iowa. I think I've only been

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<v Speaker 4>there when I visited the University of Iowa. So this

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<v Speaker 4>sounds like somewhere I got to go this summer.

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<v Speaker 2>Well it's funny too, because I never thought, I mean

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<v Speaker 2>I was when I was there, it was like cold

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<v Speaker 2>and windy and nat I was there like first of

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<v Speaker 2>April or something, and it was it had been really

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<v Speaker 2>nice in March, and then it was cold and windy

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<v Speaker 2>in April and it was just I mean, I just

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<v Speaker 2>froze my butt off for four days walking around seeing

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<v Speaker 2>all these courses and trying to play in it once.

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<v Speaker 2>But but that's another thing.

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<v Speaker 4>I was.

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<v Speaker 2>It's windy and Iowah. You know, that's a good thing

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<v Speaker 2>for golf. It makes the golf a lot more interesting.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it adds a as an element and it's uh,

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<v Speaker 4>it's just it's different than what a lot of people

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<v Speaker 4>experience in places like Chicago or or Philadelphia, where you've

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<v Speaker 4>got lots of trees.

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<v Speaker 3>So what what architects?

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<v Speaker 4>Uh, you know, have you gained a lot of appreciation

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<v Speaker 4>for from all these travels and playing all all these courses?

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<v Speaker 2>Too many to lift? I mean, you know there's there's

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<v Speaker 2>you know, there's four guys that get most of the

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<v Speaker 2>attention and then there's four or five others like George Thomas,

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<v Speaker 2>because he wrote his book and and did a couple

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<v Speaker 2>of courses that are you know, prominent tour side that

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<v Speaker 2>they get a fair share of attention. And then most

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<v Speaker 2>of the other golf course architects who worked back in

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<v Speaker 2>the old days, you know, aren't well known today. Somebody

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<v Speaker 2>like Bill Langford who worked around Chicago, or or Perry Maxwell,

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<v Speaker 2>who did some of his best work building golf courses

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<v Speaker 2>for Alistair Mackenzie but then did some great stuff on

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<v Speaker 2>his own. Or Walter Travis. You know, we've worked in

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<v Speaker 2>a couple of Travis golf courses and they've been consulting

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<v Speaker 2>a Garden City golf club for approaching thirty years.

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<v Speaker 4>Now.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, they all did some terrific work and and all,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, all at this sort of detail level. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>they didn't necessarily have a spectacular ocean front site, but

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<v Speaker 2>the greens they built and this, you know, in the

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<v Speaker 2>bunkers they built, the featuring and and they you know,

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<v Speaker 2>they some of them were working on some pretty rugged

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<v Speaker 2>terrain and so they came up with golf holes that

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<v Speaker 2>that are just different than the kinds of things you

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<v Speaker 2>see now. You know, they're they're hillier and the you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the I mean, it's the landing area their their original

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<v Speaker 2>landing area might have been designed at you learning twenty yards.

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<v Speaker 2>So so now you can blow it over that, but

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<v Speaker 2>you do so at your peril because because it really

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't meant you know, it really wasn't meant to be

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<v Speaker 2>played that way, and you can get yourself in a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of trouble trying to go for it, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>So you know, I've seen so many cool things, and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and I've seen and I've seen more than

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<v Speaker 2>a couple that you know, that were designed by people

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<v Speaker 2>you never heard of, or nobody even really remembers who

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<v Speaker 2>the heck built it, and you know, and yet it's

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<v Speaker 2>a cool golf course. So so you know, I wish

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<v Speaker 2>people didn't pay as much attention to the names as

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<v Speaker 2>they do. Yeah, you know, it sounds crazy. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, my living is the fact. Part of the

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<v Speaker 2>reason I make a good living is the fact that

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<v Speaker 2>people know who I am. But and and that's you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's and it's hard to you know, I can't remember

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<v Speaker 2>like years ago, either either Arnold Palmer or Jack Nicholas.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it was. Palmer said that, you know, he'd

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<v Speaker 2>really like it if if people came to play one

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<v Speaker 2>of his courses and they really liked it, but they

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<v Speaker 2>didn't even know who built it. I thought, well, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>but that's hard to do when they put your picture

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<v Speaker 2>on the scorecard.

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<v Speaker 4>It's it's very it's very, very true. So what I

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<v Speaker 4>got I had some Twitter questions I put up and

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<v Speaker 4>want to get to some of those. So Jay rigged

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<v Speaker 4>and wants to know what are the best nine hole

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<v Speaker 4>courses that you've seen and how do you, you know, rate

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<v Speaker 4>them compared to an eighteen whole course.

0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:01.560
<v Speaker 2>The best nine hole course I've seen is uh Royal

0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:06.560
<v Speaker 2>Worlington and Newmarket in England, which which to Cambridge golf

0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:11.480
<v Speaker 2>team uses. So it's somewhat famous. But you know there's

0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:14.680
<v Speaker 2>one that you know its origin there is a little

0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:17.000
<v Speaker 2>bit of a mystery. Harry Colet had something to do

0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:19.559
<v Speaker 2>with it at some point, but but the guys who

0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:22.320
<v Speaker 2>designed it originally are really kind of known names yet.

0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:25.880
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's on a it's on a tight piece

0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:29.000
<v Speaker 2>of land and it's fairly unassuming looking. There's actually a road,

0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:32.000
<v Speaker 2>the road that goes by the clubhouse and goes alongside

0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:34.640
<v Speaker 2>the first and second hole. You know, you play over

0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:36.559
<v Speaker 2>the road at the ninth hole, so you're actually driving

0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:38.760
<v Speaker 2>through the golf course. And you could drive through that

0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:42.240
<v Speaker 2>golf course in and not give it a second glance,

0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:44.800
<v Speaker 2>thinking oh wow, that's really cool. And then but you

0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:46.400
<v Speaker 2>get out in the middle of the first fairway and

0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:48.520
<v Speaker 2>look at the shot you've got into the green and

0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:52.120
<v Speaker 2>it's like, oh my goodness. And the nine holes of that,

0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:56.000
<v Speaker 2>I mean, there's there's nine really good holes on a

0:13:56.080 --> 0:14:00.840
<v Speaker 2>nine holdse which you don't see that much. You know,

0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:06.680
<v Speaker 2>there's there's a handful of others. Whittonville in Massachusetts is

0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:09.880
<v Speaker 2>a Donald Ross course, and I think that's probably the

0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:13.160
<v Speaker 2>best nine hole course in America. Gil Hans just did

0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:16.040
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of restoration work on it made it that

0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:20.240
<v Speaker 2>much better. But you know, I've been going there. I

0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:22.760
<v Speaker 2>haven't been there that many times, but the first time

0:14:22.760 --> 0:14:25.800
<v Speaker 2>I went there was like thirty years ago this summer,

0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:30.200
<v Speaker 2>so it's always been a favorite. Another one that I

0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:31.960
<v Speaker 2>thought for the first time a year or two ago

0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:35.800
<v Speaker 2>with super in New Hampshire. It's kind of like not

0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:39.000
<v Speaker 2>that far north of Hartford, Connecticut. You just go up

0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:46.320
<v Speaker 2>through Massachusetts and you're right there. Styles and Dan Cleek

0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:50.760
<v Speaker 2>Course or maybe just Styles actually, but terrific piece of ground.

0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:53.960
<v Speaker 2>And then the Dunes Club that my kids have built,

0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:58.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, pretty close to my Lost Dunes down in

0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:01.880
<v Speaker 2>the corner of like the corner of Michigan as you're

0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:05.840
<v Speaker 2>going around the lake towards Chicago, which is a you know,

0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:09.840
<v Speaker 2>a really neat, fairly freeform golf course. And you know,

0:15:10.560 --> 0:15:13.000
<v Speaker 2>I saw it the first time when it was brand new,

0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:18.040
<v Speaker 2>and and before i'd met Mike and and thaught, you know,

0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:21.760
<v Speaker 2>just some of the the way they'd done tees, more

0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:24.560
<v Speaker 2>free form and stuff. I thought, Wow, this is a

0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:26.080
<v Speaker 2>you know, this is the kind of guy I'd like

0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:30.040
<v Speaker 2>to work for. And I'm glad I had the team.

0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:33.000
<v Speaker 2>As far as how I rate them, I kind of

0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:38.960
<v Speaker 2>informally think, you know, it cost them one point on

0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:41.080
<v Speaker 2>the dok scale that they're only in nine hole course,

0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:44.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, because it's like you know, if you you know,

0:15:47.240 --> 0:15:49.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, there there are some there are some very

0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:53.680
<v Speaker 2>good golf courses that there's one nine holes that's great

0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:56.400
<v Speaker 2>and the other nine holes kind of sucks. I won't

0:15:56.640 --> 0:15:59.640
<v Speaker 2>go into specifics today. I saw one of those pretty

0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:02.640
<v Speaker 2>reasons actually that I thought, well, yeah, this nine holes

0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:05.000
<v Speaker 2>is great. The other night holes, it's like they shouldn't

0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:07.080
<v Speaker 2>have even built it. They should just play the play

0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:13.160
<v Speaker 2>them one good nine twice. And but you know, you know,

0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:16.000
<v Speaker 2>I do that with recognition that it's harder to build

0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:18.200
<v Speaker 2>eighteen great holes than it is to just build nine

0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:19.720
<v Speaker 2>grade holes. But at the end of the day, if

0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:22.280
<v Speaker 2>you've got a really good nine hold course, you know

0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:25.920
<v Speaker 2>that's a great golf course and there's no reason to

0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:28.440
<v Speaker 2>knock it down that much because there's only nine of

0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:30.160
<v Speaker 2>the hole, because you can go play them again.

0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:35.640
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, and just so people that aren't familiar, Tom came

0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:38.280
<v Speaker 4>up with a Dok scale, which is how he rates

0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:41.760
<v Speaker 4>golf courses. It's a one through ten and there he

0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:45.320
<v Speaker 4>rates them all in his books called The Confidential Guide

0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:48.840
<v Speaker 4>to Golf Courses. I highly recommend them if you're into

0:16:48.880 --> 0:16:52.920
<v Speaker 4>golf courses. They're they're just terrific things to just read

0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:55.360
<v Speaker 4>through and great ways to figure out where you want

0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:56.120
<v Speaker 4>to play next.

0:16:57.240 --> 0:16:59.760
<v Speaker 3>Tom tell us a little bit about how you came

0:16:59.880 --> 0:17:01.760
<v Speaker 3>up up with the Dok Scale.

0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:06.560
<v Speaker 2>It's really kind of a lark. I mean, you know,

0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:10.440
<v Speaker 2>the original version of The Confidential God was just written

0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:13.560
<v Speaker 2>for I printed forty of them and gave him away

0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:16.480
<v Speaker 2>to friends and people that had helped me go around

0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:19.159
<v Speaker 2>and see some of these golf courses, you know, like

0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:21.600
<v Speaker 2>I gave I gave George Pepper a copy, and I

0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:24.160
<v Speaker 2>gave them Crunchhaw copies. We he die a copy.

0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:24.919
<v Speaker 3>You know.

0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:28.560
<v Speaker 2>It was because I was writing just for friends. It

0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:33.320
<v Speaker 2>was very off the cup and informal and brutally honest.

0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:35.240
<v Speaker 2>You know, if I didn't like a famous course, I

0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:37.919
<v Speaker 2>just said, don't bother ever going to this place and

0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:40.360
<v Speaker 2>they're making fun of a back call of a hole

0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:44.239
<v Speaker 2>that I thought was terrible or whatever, and you know,

0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:47.280
<v Speaker 2>and I never really intended for it to be seen

0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:51.679
<v Speaker 2>by more than a handful of friends. But you know,

0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:55.399
<v Speaker 2>I came up with the Doak scale and given the

0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:57.840
<v Speaker 2>courses as zero to ten rating was kind of a

0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:00.560
<v Speaker 2>shorting because I really, you know, I think the first

0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:03.399
<v Speaker 2>book covered like six or seven hundred golf courses, so

0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:05.040
<v Speaker 2>I was you know, I was only writing a I

0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:07.320
<v Speaker 2>only had room to write a paragraph or two about

0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:10.159
<v Speaker 2>the golf course, and I couldn't really cover it, you know.

0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:11.720
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't like I was going to cover it hole

0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:16.359
<v Speaker 2>by hole, So I just thought well, you know, I

0:18:16.440 --> 0:18:18.239
<v Speaker 2>want to I want to put a number with it,

0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:21.800
<v Speaker 2>so you know, if I write about Augusta, and you know,

0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:24.760
<v Speaker 2>because everybody's already read brilliant things about Augusta and all

0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:27.720
<v Speaker 2>these people I've given this book to, no Augusta. You know,

0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:30.920
<v Speaker 2>I want to write what I don't like about Augusta.

0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:33.720
<v Speaker 2>But then I don't want everybody to think, well, he

0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:36.720
<v Speaker 2>hates Augusta. He thinks it's the worst concourse in the world,

0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:39.480
<v Speaker 2>because he wrote two paragraphs they are bad about it.

0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:41.840
<v Speaker 2>So the number was kind of like, no, you know,

0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:44.080
<v Speaker 2>it's still a nine on my one to ten scale.

0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:47.240
<v Speaker 2>It's out of ten, but it's not a five. I mean,

0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:50.520
<v Speaker 2>I really like the golf course. So you know, the

0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:55.320
<v Speaker 2>number was kind of a a safety valve check originally.

0:18:55.560 --> 0:19:00.080
<v Speaker 2>But you know, once when I when I decided, on

0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:02.160
<v Speaker 2>the advice of all my friends, that I should really

0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:05.840
<v Speaker 2>publish the book for the past because it was you know, basically,

0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:08.399
<v Speaker 2>it was what I knew about golf course architecture, was

0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:10.600
<v Speaker 2>from seeing all those golf courses, and it would be

0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:13.720
<v Speaker 2>good for my career to put that out there, even

0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:19.000
<v Speaker 2>if it was controversial. You know. Then the numbers became

0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:22.080
<v Speaker 2>like the whole point for most people, which is too bad.

0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:25.399
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you know, the to me, the book is

0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:29.280
<v Speaker 2>still about what I have to write about the golf course.

0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:33.120
<v Speaker 2>You know what, Why do I think you should go here? What?

0:19:33.119 --> 0:19:35.879
<v Speaker 2>What's interesting about this golf course? It would make you

0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:38.160
<v Speaker 2>want to travel all the way to see it. That's

0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:40.399
<v Speaker 2>really the purpose of the book, you know. It's not

0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:45.679
<v Speaker 2>It's not meant to be doke critiques every architect whoever

0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:48.760
<v Speaker 2>with It's meant to be like, you only have so

0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:53.000
<v Speaker 2>much timey andy. So if you're going to England, you

0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:55.359
<v Speaker 2>know which of these courses should you try to go see?

0:19:55.920 --> 0:19:57.840
<v Speaker 2>And it's written in a way that yes, I've got

0:19:57.920 --> 0:20:00.240
<v Speaker 2>numbers on them, and you could say, well, I'll go

0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:02.320
<v Speaker 2>to all the nines in the eighth and the sevens

0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:04.959
<v Speaker 2>and I'll use that as a cutoff, you know, but

0:20:05.040 --> 0:20:07.239
<v Speaker 2>that's not really how you know, you shouldn't even do that.

0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:09.320
<v Speaker 2>You should read what I say about the golf courses

0:20:09.720 --> 0:20:11.639
<v Speaker 2>and you should look at which ones they're close together

0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:14.200
<v Speaker 2>and go, oh, yeah, you only gave that a five,

0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:16.600
<v Speaker 2>But it sounds pretty cool, So maybe I should go

0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:19.679
<v Speaker 2>see that, you know. And I'm not expecting it to

0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:21.560
<v Speaker 2>be one of the top hundred courses in the world.

0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:24.800
<v Speaker 2>But it's you know, it's going to be cool enough

0:20:24.840 --> 0:20:29.520
<v Speaker 2>to go be worth spending four hours, yep. And that's

0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:33.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, and that's you know, that's been the success

0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:36.160
<v Speaker 2>of the books, that it works really well on that level,

0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:38.840
<v Speaker 2>and the people that go out of their way to

0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:41.399
<v Speaker 2>see some of course they never heard of because I

0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:47.160
<v Speaker 2>recommended it, are mostly pretty pleased by having made their detour.

0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:53.359
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it's I think it's it's just a great resource

0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:56.840
<v Speaker 4>for if you're unfamiliar with an area. I mean, you

0:20:56.880 --> 0:21:01.760
<v Speaker 4>can learn so much about different courses and just figure

0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:05.159
<v Speaker 4>out you know, the I always say to people they

0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:08.000
<v Speaker 4>should have a you know, a purpose for why they

0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:10.640
<v Speaker 4>want to play somewhere, and it does a great job

0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:13.320
<v Speaker 4>of giving you a reason to go play somewhere.

0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:18.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And you know, I just you know, I was

0:21:18.160 --> 0:21:21.320
<v Speaker 2>involved in the rankings of courses with Golf Magazine back

0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:23.879
<v Speaker 2>from almost the time they started doing and I'm not

0:21:24.080 --> 0:21:26.600
<v Speaker 2>involved in that anymore. And I really think, you know,

0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:31.440
<v Speaker 2>all those rankings is just you know, they've overpowered everything else.

0:21:31.480 --> 0:21:35.879
<v Speaker 2>It's like, you know, I know these panelists that like

0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:38.520
<v Speaker 2>they go to Asia for a week and they go

0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:42.560
<v Speaker 2>play two courses in Korea and three in Japan and

0:21:42.640 --> 0:21:47.480
<v Speaker 2>one in Thailand. And you know, because they're quote unquote

0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:50.879
<v Speaker 2>top one hundred golf courses or curious candidates for the

0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:54.199
<v Speaker 2>top one hundred, and they drive right by, you know,

0:21:54.240 --> 0:21:57.360
<v Speaker 2>they're I mean like Japan is the best example of that.

0:21:57.960 --> 0:22:00.639
<v Speaker 2>You know, Kasumi Giseki used to be ranked in the

0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:03.159
<v Speaker 2>top hundred golf courses and I can't remember if it

0:22:03.240 --> 0:22:06.959
<v Speaker 2>still is now or not, but there was another course

0:22:07.840 --> 0:22:11.000
<v Speaker 2>that Allison had something to do with, Tokyo Golf Club

0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:14.520
<v Speaker 2>get next door to it, and for years Canilis never

0:22:14.560 --> 0:22:17.119
<v Speaker 2>went there. They would go to Kasumikoseki because it was

0:22:17.119 --> 0:22:18.560
<v Speaker 2>in the top hundred and they wanted to see all

0:22:18.600 --> 0:22:21.159
<v Speaker 2>the top one hundred, and nobody would go. You know,

0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:24.400
<v Speaker 2>it's not even across the street, it's like works off

0:22:24.480 --> 0:22:27.760
<v Speaker 2>the same driveway, but you couldn't get anybody to go there,

0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:29.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, because they had to get on a plane

0:22:29.680 --> 0:22:33.160
<v Speaker 2>to go to Thailand tomorrow instead. And that just bothered

0:22:33.200 --> 0:22:35.920
<v Speaker 2>the hell out of me. You know, I just think, well,

0:22:36.240 --> 0:22:39.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, go see you know, actually goes if you're

0:22:39.720 --> 0:22:42.320
<v Speaker 2>going to take a golf trip to Japan, for God's sake,

0:22:42.400 --> 0:22:47.440
<v Speaker 2>go see Japan. It's and that's you see the same

0:22:47.440 --> 0:22:50.920
<v Speaker 2>thing in Scotland. You know, people people go to Scotland

0:22:51.000 --> 0:22:53.480
<v Speaker 2>and you know, if this is their first trip to Scotland,

0:22:54.160 --> 0:22:56.240
<v Speaker 2>they think, well, I may never get to do this

0:22:56.280 --> 0:22:58.400
<v Speaker 2>again in my life, so I've got to go see

0:22:58.760 --> 0:23:03.320
<v Speaker 2>all the Open champions courses in Scotland and then and then,

0:23:03.400 --> 0:23:07.080
<v Speaker 2>but I also want to see Dornick because because everybody

0:23:07.080 --> 0:23:09.399
<v Speaker 2>says it's a great golf course. So you know, so

0:23:09.480 --> 0:23:13.800
<v Speaker 2>that means that you're you know, you're driving two hours

0:23:13.800 --> 0:23:16.879
<v Speaker 2>from Edinburgh to Saint Andrew's and you're driving two or

0:23:16.920 --> 0:23:19.280
<v Speaker 2>three hours more to get over to Troon, and then

0:23:19.280 --> 0:23:21.840
<v Speaker 2>you're driving like five hours to get up at Dornic

0:23:21.920 --> 0:23:25.080
<v Speaker 2>and five hours coming back, and you skipped so many

0:23:25.080 --> 0:23:27.320
<v Speaker 2>good golf courses in between there it's a joke.

0:23:27.920 --> 0:23:30.720
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, and and you're all that time in the car

0:23:30.880 --> 0:23:33.119
<v Speaker 4>you could have played two or three more rounds of

0:23:33.160 --> 0:23:36.840
<v Speaker 4>golf and seeing you know, it's like, just because they're

0:23:36.840 --> 0:23:39.320
<v Speaker 4>an open road of course, doesn't mean for the ten

0:23:39.440 --> 0:23:41.760
<v Speaker 4>handicap that it's the best place to go play.

0:23:42.080 --> 0:23:43.360
<v Speaker 3>I think, you know, no.

0:23:43.440 --> 0:23:45.919
<v Speaker 2>The only thing it means is it's the most expensive

0:23:45.920 --> 0:23:49.000
<v Speaker 2>golf course are going to see in the k you know,

0:23:49.040 --> 0:23:51.480
<v Speaker 2>they charge two hundred and fifty dollars for all of them.

0:23:52.040 --> 0:23:53.920
<v Speaker 2>And you know there could be a good golf course

0:23:53.960 --> 0:23:56.240
<v Speaker 2>down the street that there's still only charge at sixty

0:23:56.320 --> 0:23:59.119
<v Speaker 2>four because it's not so well known. And that's you know,

0:23:59.440 --> 0:24:01.560
<v Speaker 2>so that's part of you know, that's part of the

0:24:01.560 --> 0:24:05.919
<v Speaker 2>confidential guide to it. It's like, you know, my little

0:24:06.000 --> 0:24:09.240
<v Speaker 2>intros to the different sections are basically, for God's sake,

0:24:09.320 --> 0:24:11.920
<v Speaker 2>don't do that. You know, if you're you know, if

0:24:11.920 --> 0:24:16.399
<v Speaker 2>you're going to Scotland, just assume that you're going to

0:24:16.560 --> 0:24:18.520
<v Speaker 2>like it and want to go back again some days.

0:24:18.560 --> 0:24:21.359
<v Speaker 2>So don't try to touch all the bases this trip.

0:24:21.840 --> 0:24:24.560
<v Speaker 2>Just you know, pick a couple areas and see some

0:24:24.640 --> 0:24:27.600
<v Speaker 2>of the little golf courses because you know, a lot

0:24:27.600 --> 0:24:31.480
<v Speaker 2>of times you you get more out of that. I mean,

0:24:31.520 --> 0:24:38.000
<v Speaker 2>it's like, you know, you know, if you're staying around, say,

0:24:38.240 --> 0:24:40.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, if you're staying around where Mirfield is out

0:24:40.800 --> 0:24:46.280
<v Speaker 2>there to the east of Edinburgh and you know, and

0:24:46.320 --> 0:24:49.160
<v Speaker 2>you take time to play North Derrick and you take

0:24:49.160 --> 0:24:51.199
<v Speaker 2>time to play Gullin, but maybe you've got time to

0:24:51.240 --> 0:24:54.080
<v Speaker 2>go see like you'll Skindy to this little fifty four

0:24:54.160 --> 0:24:57.359
<v Speaker 2>hundred yard golf course that the you know, par sixty

0:24:57.400 --> 0:25:00.560
<v Speaker 2>eighth and the first t is like literally, you know,

0:25:01.040 --> 0:25:04.240
<v Speaker 2>as soon as you step off the pavement the walkway

0:25:04.240 --> 0:25:07.600
<v Speaker 2>from around the clubhouse, you're on the tee. And the

0:25:07.680 --> 0:25:09.320
<v Speaker 2>first of all the part three in the greens like

0:25:09.800 --> 0:25:11.560
<v Speaker 2>one hundred and sixty yards right over there was a

0:25:11.560 --> 0:25:14.600
<v Speaker 2>really hard shot. And then the eighteenth green is like

0:25:14.760 --> 0:25:17.679
<v Speaker 2>steps away from the first team and you know, it

0:25:17.760 --> 0:25:20.520
<v Speaker 2>was fifty four hundred yards and most Americans have dismissed that,

0:25:20.720 --> 0:25:22.240
<v Speaker 2>but then they go and play it and it's not

0:25:22.359 --> 0:25:26.280
<v Speaker 2>so easy, and it's a very intimate little place and

0:25:26.320 --> 0:25:29.800
<v Speaker 2>you play it in like two hours because it's so compact.

0:25:30.920 --> 0:25:33.919
<v Speaker 2>You know, you have to have that experience somewhere to

0:25:34.040 --> 0:25:36.639
<v Speaker 2>understand that, you know, golf courses don't all have to

0:25:36.680 --> 0:25:38.080
<v Speaker 2>be the same, and they don't all have to be

0:25:38.160 --> 0:25:41.240
<v Speaker 2>seven thousand yards long. But if all you go to

0:25:41.400 --> 0:25:43.960
<v Speaker 2>is the Open championship courses that you know, they've all

0:25:43.960 --> 0:25:50.160
<v Speaker 2>been rectified, and you know they're not you know, they're

0:25:50.200 --> 0:25:53.720
<v Speaker 2>not as quirky as everything else in Scotland, and they're

0:25:53.840 --> 0:25:56.280
<v Speaker 2>really cool by far. The coolest part of going to

0:25:56.320 --> 0:25:58.879
<v Speaker 2>Scotland is that you will see some things that you

0:25:58.880 --> 0:26:03.080
<v Speaker 2>would never see anywhere else, because you know, you can't

0:26:03.080 --> 0:26:07.439
<v Speaker 2>tell the Scotts that they don't know about going, you know,

0:26:09.320 --> 0:26:11.120
<v Speaker 2>you know you can't tell him, well, fifty four under

0:26:11.160 --> 0:26:13.680
<v Speaker 2>your course that is that's no. They're like, of course,

0:26:13.680 --> 0:26:16.439
<v Speaker 2>it's yeah, you know, it's a lot of fun. What

0:26:16.480 --> 0:26:17.280
<v Speaker 2>are you talking about?

0:26:18.400 --> 0:26:20.320
<v Speaker 3>It's uh, that's that, it's funny.

0:26:20.359 --> 0:26:25.000
<v Speaker 4>My my buddy is going exactly to in Edinburgh and

0:26:25.440 --> 0:26:30.400
<v Speaker 4>I recommended North Barrack and uh going, but that's a perfect,

0:26:30.680 --> 0:26:36.360
<v Speaker 4>perfect U Kills Beanery is the perfect recommendation for him

0:26:36.359 --> 0:26:37.920
<v Speaker 4>because he's he's asking.

0:26:37.800 --> 0:26:38.920
<v Speaker 3>You know, he's asking for more.

0:26:41.080 --> 0:26:46.760
<v Speaker 4>What Jeff wants to know, what are five courses in

0:26:46.800 --> 0:26:50.439
<v Speaker 4>North America that you haven't played yet that are on

0:26:50.480 --> 0:26:50.960
<v Speaker 4>your list?

0:26:54.600 --> 0:26:59.160
<v Speaker 2>M You know, that's hard for me to answer, because

0:26:59.160 --> 0:27:02.160
<v Speaker 2>I've been you know, part of the reason for going

0:27:02.200 --> 0:27:04.720
<v Speaker 2>back and updating the Confidential Guy is to check some

0:27:04.800 --> 0:27:08.119
<v Speaker 2>of these places off my list. But then I have

0:27:08.240 --> 0:27:09.760
<v Speaker 2>to admit to you that I don't you know, I

0:27:09.760 --> 0:27:13.800
<v Speaker 2>don't always have time to play everywhere. You know, I'm

0:27:13.800 --> 0:27:16.040
<v Speaker 2>trying to see a bunch of courses if I can

0:27:16.080 --> 0:27:17.840
<v Speaker 2>tell other people about them, and I don't always have

0:27:17.880 --> 0:27:20.119
<v Speaker 2>time to play, or I get there and you know,

0:27:20.200 --> 0:27:23.520
<v Speaker 2>it's thirty eight degrees and blowing at thirty miles an hour,

0:27:23.600 --> 0:27:25.600
<v Speaker 2>and I couldn't go out and play an app But

0:27:25.640 --> 0:27:27.720
<v Speaker 2>if I did, then I'm not going to go see

0:27:27.760 --> 0:27:32.800
<v Speaker 2>the course twenty miles down the road too. So so

0:27:32.840 --> 0:27:34.280
<v Speaker 2>the only one that comes to the top of my

0:27:34.359 --> 0:27:39.199
<v Speaker 2>head of you know. I mean, I've played most of

0:27:39.240 --> 0:27:42.679
<v Speaker 2>the top fifty golf courses in the world, and I

0:27:42.680 --> 0:27:44.520
<v Speaker 2>think the only one that I haven't played is oakmar

0:27:44.840 --> 0:27:47.040
<v Speaker 2>I've been to Oakmont like three or four times, and

0:27:47.080 --> 0:27:49.280
<v Speaker 2>it just it never worked out for me to play.

0:27:49.280 --> 0:27:51.240
<v Speaker 2>When I was there, you know, I was like I

0:27:51.320 --> 0:27:53.679
<v Speaker 2>was welcome to play, but they had an event going on.

0:27:54.560 --> 0:27:57.800
<v Speaker 2>Or I was going to play but we got ringed

0:27:57.800 --> 0:28:01.840
<v Speaker 2>out or something. So you know, so so one of

0:28:01.880 --> 0:28:03.800
<v Speaker 2>these days I'm going to go do that because I

0:28:03.840 --> 0:28:08.520
<v Speaker 2>really love the golf course. But you know, I wish

0:28:08.560 --> 0:28:10.439
<v Speaker 2>I had more time to play golf. I mean, you know,

0:28:10.440 --> 0:28:13.200
<v Speaker 2>I get invitations from people all the time, oh, come,

0:28:13.320 --> 0:28:15.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, come play here, and it's like, well, I'd

0:28:15.960 --> 0:28:19.600
<v Speaker 2>love to, but but but I'm traveling a lot of

0:28:19.680 --> 0:28:23.200
<v Speaker 2>days still building golf courses, and then and then I'm

0:28:23.520 --> 0:28:26.119
<v Speaker 2>crazy enough to take on this book project, and I

0:28:26.160 --> 0:28:28.880
<v Speaker 2>need to go see golf courses in Korea and Vietnam

0:28:28.920 --> 0:28:32.080
<v Speaker 2>this year, and I just don't have much time to

0:28:32.080 --> 0:28:35.760
<v Speaker 2>get back to to Nebraska and play.

0:28:36.760 --> 0:28:37.080
<v Speaker 3>Mm hm.

0:28:37.760 --> 0:28:40.560
<v Speaker 4>So I got this, I got this question a couple

0:28:40.600 --> 0:28:45.440
<v Speaker 4>of times. Easiest change for a golf course to make

0:28:46.680 --> 0:28:50.000
<v Speaker 4>that would have the biggest effects.

0:28:53.080 --> 0:28:54.479
<v Speaker 3>In terms of improving it.

0:28:54.640 --> 0:29:01.080
<v Speaker 2>I assume, well, you know, I don't do a lot

0:29:01.120 --> 0:29:04.840
<v Speaker 2>of like renovation projects where we really change a golf

0:29:04.880 --> 0:29:08.560
<v Speaker 2>course dramatically. I mean, we we do restoration projects. But

0:29:08.760 --> 0:29:11.120
<v Speaker 2>trying to take a golf course that's not that great

0:29:11.200 --> 0:29:15.600
<v Speaker 2>and turn it into something great, you know, I've kind

0:29:15.600 --> 0:29:18.680
<v Speaker 2>of avoided because it's all a matter of opinion, you know.

0:29:18.880 --> 0:29:21.960
<v Speaker 2>And when you've got three hundred members that that joined

0:29:22.000 --> 0:29:24.680
<v Speaker 2>the place because presumably they kind of like it, you know,

0:29:24.760 --> 0:29:27.200
<v Speaker 2>blowing it up and turn it into something different, there's

0:29:27.200 --> 0:29:31.040
<v Speaker 2>a really big you know, you're going way out on

0:29:31.040 --> 0:29:35.280
<v Speaker 2>a limb to do that. So you know to me that,

0:29:35.600 --> 0:29:37.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, the two things that make a golf course

0:29:37.480 --> 0:29:40.440
<v Speaker 2>really good are the routing and the set of groups.

0:29:41.480 --> 0:29:44.760
<v Speaker 2>And you know, it's really it's really almost impossible to

0:29:44.840 --> 0:29:46.920
<v Speaker 2>change the routing of a golf course after it's been

0:29:46.920 --> 0:29:49.720
<v Speaker 2>there for fifty years, and I've you know, planted trees

0:29:49.720 --> 0:29:53.120
<v Speaker 2>and done everything else to reinforce the routing, you know,

0:29:53.280 --> 0:29:56.080
<v Speaker 2>changing it and just completely redoing it. You're just blowing

0:29:56.120 --> 0:29:57.640
<v Speaker 2>it up and making a hold of golf course. So

0:29:57.680 --> 0:30:01.080
<v Speaker 2>I won't I won't take that as an example. You know,

0:30:01.720 --> 0:30:04.719
<v Speaker 2>the best thing that you could possibly do, the biggest

0:30:04.760 --> 0:30:07.160
<v Speaker 2>impact by far, would be building a really good set

0:30:07.200 --> 0:30:09.960
<v Speaker 2>of greens. But again, that's the step that most clubs

0:30:09.960 --> 0:30:11.320
<v Speaker 2>don't want to make because you've got to close the

0:30:11.360 --> 0:30:14.520
<v Speaker 2>golf course to do it. You're basically closing for a

0:30:14.600 --> 0:30:17.040
<v Speaker 2>year to rebuild the greens. But that would certainly be

0:30:17.080 --> 0:30:20.840
<v Speaker 2>the most impactful thing, you know, as far as the

0:30:21.480 --> 0:30:24.880
<v Speaker 2>easiest thing to do. To me, it's getting the mowing

0:30:24.920 --> 0:30:27.120
<v Speaker 2>lines right, you know, getting the corners of the greens

0:30:27.160 --> 0:30:28.560
<v Speaker 2>back to where they used to be so you can

0:30:28.640 --> 0:30:31.240
<v Speaker 2>jam a pin over in the corner. Because because most

0:30:31.280 --> 0:30:34.600
<v Speaker 2>old golf courses, those things have kind of got rounded

0:30:34.600 --> 0:30:38.280
<v Speaker 2>off over time, and and you know, the very coolest

0:30:38.960 --> 0:30:41.840
<v Speaker 2>little edges of the golf course just aren't in play.

0:30:41.840 --> 0:30:45.080
<v Speaker 2>The city. Same with you know, getting the fairway lines

0:30:45.160 --> 0:30:47.760
<v Speaker 2>back to the right places. You know that sometimes that

0:30:47.920 --> 0:30:50.600
<v Speaker 2>get that introduces a lot of strategy. Back to the

0:30:50.640 --> 0:30:53.360
<v Speaker 2>golf course that it's just you know, it's been narrowed

0:30:53.440 --> 0:30:56.920
<v Speaker 2>up kind of arbitrarily to get it to thirty yards

0:30:56.960 --> 0:31:00.760
<v Speaker 2>wide because that's what the sprinkler here covers. And you

0:31:00.800 --> 0:31:02.920
<v Speaker 2>know they've they've missed the in kind of a hole

0:31:02.960 --> 0:31:03.520
<v Speaker 2>when they did that.

0:31:04.560 --> 0:31:08.520
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, that's I see that. At the course I play at.

0:31:08.640 --> 0:31:10.960
<v Speaker 4>There's a one green. It's a Donald Ross. There's one

0:31:10.960 --> 0:31:13.560
<v Speaker 4>green that used to be this massive green and and

0:31:13.640 --> 0:31:16.280
<v Speaker 4>like half the green is missing because of because of

0:31:16.280 --> 0:31:19.200
<v Speaker 4>a sprinkler, because of sprinklers, and you see this like

0:31:19.400 --> 0:31:21.239
<v Speaker 4>where this green used to go, and it's like that

0:31:21.320 --> 0:31:23.440
<v Speaker 4>might have been the best green in all of Chicago.

0:31:24.840 --> 0:31:26.480
<v Speaker 2>But which is that.

0:31:26.600 --> 0:31:31.120
<v Speaker 4>It's a Calumet country club. It's down by the Phlossmoor

0:31:33.000 --> 0:31:38.400
<v Speaker 4>and Olympia and Ravslow. It's a the a highway cut

0:31:38.440 --> 0:31:43.320
<v Speaker 4>through it, and now it's you know, overgrown, kind of

0:31:43.880 --> 0:31:46.360
<v Speaker 4>the story of a lot of Chicago country clubs. But

0:31:46.480 --> 0:31:49.040
<v Speaker 4>they're starting to take trees down and we're getting it back.

0:31:49.160 --> 0:31:53.080
<v Speaker 4>But there's this one green that is just unbelievable if

0:31:53.120 --> 0:31:55.360
<v Speaker 4>they had, if they could get it back. But there's

0:31:55.520 --> 0:31:58.440
<v Speaker 4>you know, it's it's a club that's low on money,

0:31:58.480 --> 0:32:01.600
<v Speaker 4>and there's a sprinkler right in the middle of where

0:32:01.640 --> 0:32:06.600
<v Speaker 4>that part of the green would be, So it's got constraints.

0:32:07.840 --> 0:32:13.480
<v Speaker 4>So somebody asked if there was one, you know, one

0:32:13.560 --> 0:32:16.920
<v Speaker 4>place you could play that's accessible to the public, that

0:32:16.960 --> 0:32:20.440
<v Speaker 4>you could walk in the afternoon, was a Sunday bag,

0:32:20.800 --> 0:32:21.920
<v Speaker 4>what course would it be?

0:32:22.040 --> 0:32:26.040
<v Speaker 3>And you only get one?

0:32:28.080 --> 0:32:31.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's the hardest thing. I mean, you know, I've

0:32:31.400 --> 0:32:35.640
<v Speaker 2>been to fifteen hundred golf courses and most of the

0:32:35.640 --> 0:32:37.200
<v Speaker 2>best golf course in the world. So any of these

0:32:37.240 --> 0:32:41.400
<v Speaker 2>questions were anybody asked me you only get one, I

0:32:41.480 --> 0:32:43.400
<v Speaker 2>just have to you know, I just have to laugh

0:32:43.480 --> 0:32:46.200
<v Speaker 2>at like, so go back, what are my criteria.

0:32:46.680 --> 0:32:47.400
<v Speaker 3>Let's say it's it.

0:32:47.640 --> 0:32:51.000
<v Speaker 5>Let's walk it with a Sunday bag in the afternoon

0:32:51.160 --> 0:32:55.200
<v Speaker 5>in the States, We'll say in the States, and it's accessible,

0:32:57.000 --> 0:32:59.600
<v Speaker 5>it's accessible, and it's not mine.

0:32:59.320 --> 0:32:59.960
<v Speaker 2>I'll throw in it.

0:33:00.160 --> 0:33:01.560
<v Speaker 3>Not we'll do that too.

0:33:15.000 --> 0:33:23.320
<v Speaker 2>But accessible part really narrows it down a lot. Possimo

0:33:23.400 --> 0:33:27.400
<v Speaker 2>is a great course and it's a little hilly for

0:33:27.480 --> 0:33:31.480
<v Speaker 2>some people to walk, So so that would be a

0:33:31.560 --> 0:33:34.240
<v Speaker 2>little tough to recommend, but but that's one of the

0:33:34.280 --> 0:33:45.000
<v Speaker 2>first places that springs to mind. I'll pick one that's

0:33:45.040 --> 0:33:48.200
<v Speaker 2>not far from where I'm talking today, in traversity. There's

0:33:48.480 --> 0:33:52.760
<v Speaker 2>there's an old club in northern Michigan called Belvedere, which

0:33:52.920 --> 0:33:57.400
<v Speaker 2>is a semi private club. They're only like, you know,

0:33:57.680 --> 0:33:59.960
<v Speaker 2>basically the members around for two months in the summer,

0:34:00.280 --> 0:34:03.200
<v Speaker 2>and it's harder to get onto those two months, but

0:34:03.400 --> 0:34:06.000
<v Speaker 2>the rest of the time, the public's welcome. All you

0:34:06.080 --> 0:34:09.360
<v Speaker 2>have to do is calling. And you know, it's a

0:34:09.440 --> 0:34:12.799
<v Speaker 2>really cool, simple, old golf course laid out on a

0:34:12.920 --> 0:34:16.480
<v Speaker 2>farm by Willie Watson, and you know, he liked it

0:34:16.560 --> 0:34:19.279
<v Speaker 2>enough that when George Thomas was doing his book on architecture,

0:34:19.320 --> 0:34:21.879
<v Speaker 2>he sent him a couple of diagrams of the whole

0:34:22.000 --> 0:34:27.440
<v Speaker 2>There's actually three of them and they're all in Thomas's book. So,

0:34:27.840 --> 0:34:30.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, I thought out the place the first time

0:34:30.200 --> 0:34:32.080
<v Speaker 2>it came up here, and it was kind of you know,

0:34:32.120 --> 0:34:34.640
<v Speaker 2>at that point, it was really kind of run down

0:34:34.680 --> 0:34:36.520
<v Speaker 2>and they didn't have much money to spend on it.

0:34:36.920 --> 0:34:39.160
<v Speaker 2>But they've done a really nice job of fixing it

0:34:39.280 --> 0:34:44.160
<v Speaker 2>up and it was host for the Michigan Amateur for

0:34:44.280 --> 0:34:46.399
<v Speaker 2>years and years and years. They just went back there

0:34:46.440 --> 0:34:49.239
<v Speaker 2>every year and everybody loved coming north and playing there.

0:34:49.760 --> 0:34:52.719
<v Speaker 2>And then somebody, you know, somebody of the Golf Association said,

0:34:52.719 --> 0:34:55.080
<v Speaker 2>oh no, we have to move this around all over

0:34:55.120 --> 0:34:57.880
<v Speaker 2>the state to different places, so not everybody has to

0:34:57.920 --> 0:35:01.200
<v Speaker 2>go north every year. And you know, mostly good amateurs

0:35:01.200 --> 0:35:02.839
<v Speaker 2>in Michigan are still kissed about it.

0:35:03.960 --> 0:35:06.759
<v Speaker 3>I've heard a lot of great things about.

0:35:06.440 --> 0:35:10.279
<v Speaker 2>It, and it's very it's it's a very simple golf

0:35:10.320 --> 0:35:12.680
<v Speaker 2>course with a really good mm hmm.

0:35:14.080 --> 0:35:16.839
<v Speaker 4>So thanks so much for the time. You've been more

0:35:16.840 --> 0:35:19.840
<v Speaker 4>than generous. We're going to get you out here. Last

0:35:19.920 --> 0:35:23.200
<v Speaker 4>question and then we've got an overrated, underrated segment we're

0:35:23.200 --> 0:35:27.719
<v Speaker 4>going to throw at you. But last question is, you

0:35:27.760 --> 0:35:32.080
<v Speaker 4>know you famously through your book, through writing, how much

0:35:32.120 --> 0:35:35.080
<v Speaker 4>you'd love to get do a bell Air renovation. It

0:35:35.200 --> 0:35:38.960
<v Speaker 4>sounds like you've secured, you know, doing a bell Air restoration.

0:35:39.520 --> 0:35:41.920
<v Speaker 4>What would be the next golf course that you would

0:35:41.920 --> 0:35:45.960
<v Speaker 4>most want to do a restoration up?

0:35:47.000 --> 0:35:50.960
<v Speaker 2>Oh, well, you know, the bell Air thing came up

0:35:51.440 --> 0:35:54.160
<v Speaker 2>pretty funny because I think Rand more Fit asked that

0:35:54.320 --> 0:35:57.880
<v Speaker 2>question and a you know, we were we just finished

0:35:57.960 --> 0:36:01.080
<v Speaker 2>volume two of the Confidential Guys. So for some reason,

0:36:01.120 --> 0:36:03.000
<v Speaker 2>bell Air was on my mind and I just blurted

0:36:03.040 --> 0:36:05.879
<v Speaker 2>it out. And you know, I should have been more

0:36:05.920 --> 0:36:09.239
<v Speaker 2>careful because the problem with answering your question is there's

0:36:09.280 --> 0:36:13.600
<v Speaker 2>always some consulting architect that's already working there, which in

0:36:13.680 --> 0:36:16.040
<v Speaker 2>bel Air's case with Tom Fabio, and I just kind

0:36:16.080 --> 0:36:18.520
<v Speaker 2>of stepped on him and said, gee, you know, I

0:36:18.520 --> 0:36:20.880
<v Speaker 2>wish they were doing something different. And I had no

0:36:20.920 --> 0:36:23.400
<v Speaker 2>idea even knew anybody at bell Air, but it turned

0:36:23.400 --> 0:36:26.000
<v Speaker 2>out I knew like two or three of the younger

0:36:26.040 --> 0:36:28.120
<v Speaker 2>guys that were on the Green Committee, so they all

0:36:28.880 --> 0:36:31.680
<v Speaker 2>so they called me about it, and yeah, a year

0:36:31.680 --> 0:36:33.799
<v Speaker 2>and a half later, where you know, we're gonna we're

0:36:33.800 --> 0:36:36.719
<v Speaker 2>gonna start a renovation there this fall. So now I

0:36:36.880 --> 0:36:39.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, now I'm thinking, oh, you know politics. Do

0:36:40.880 --> 0:36:43.239
<v Speaker 2>you know where can I say that that somebody's not

0:36:43.280 --> 0:36:45.960
<v Speaker 2>going to be mad that I said it, or I'm

0:36:46.120 --> 0:36:49.319
<v Speaker 2>trying to steal their job away from them. So I

0:36:49.320 --> 0:36:51.400
<v Speaker 2>don't even know if I can answer the question because

0:36:51.440 --> 0:36:51.719
<v Speaker 2>of that.

0:36:52.080 --> 0:36:56.040
<v Speaker 3>It's like, hey, well we'll give you we'll give you up.

0:36:57.360 --> 0:37:00.520
<v Speaker 2>In that little okay, I mentioned that little nine whole

0:37:00.560 --> 0:37:04.319
<v Speaker 2>course I saw in New Hampshire, New Hampshire. You know

0:37:04.520 --> 0:37:08.319
<v Speaker 2>it's it's barely hanging on as a golf course, surviving

0:37:08.560 --> 0:37:10.960
<v Speaker 2>year to year. They don't even have enough money to

0:37:11.040 --> 0:37:15.040
<v Speaker 2>keep their pretty little clubhouse open. It would not take

0:37:15.239 --> 0:37:19.120
<v Speaker 2>very much to get it back to just looking perfect

0:37:19.239 --> 0:37:22.439
<v Speaker 2>like they've done for White and Phille, and I would

0:37:22.440 --> 0:37:24.120
<v Speaker 2>love to be part of that. I'd do that for

0:37:24.280 --> 0:37:27.480
<v Speaker 2>a dollar because it's a cool little golf course. But

0:37:28.120 --> 0:37:30.759
<v Speaker 2>you know, I'd only do it if if they get

0:37:30.760 --> 0:37:32.680
<v Speaker 2>their leaf with the town right to make sure the

0:37:32.680 --> 0:37:36.320
<v Speaker 2>place survive, and that seems to be an issue for

0:37:36.480 --> 0:37:38.200
<v Speaker 2>them right now, so I don't I don't know where

0:37:38.200 --> 0:37:40.319
<v Speaker 2>that's going, but i'd love to It is a great

0:37:40.360 --> 0:37:43.440
<v Speaker 2>golf course. I'd really love to help them. Need is

0:37:43.760 --> 0:37:47.120
<v Speaker 2>somebody nobody consulting there, So I'm on stave ground.

0:37:47.880 --> 0:37:51.000
<v Speaker 4>Whoever's listening from the Northeast that has a passion for

0:37:51.120 --> 0:37:53.920
<v Speaker 4>golf courses, you know, that's the one they got to

0:37:53.960 --> 0:37:57.799
<v Speaker 4>go check out. So this is gonna be a new

0:37:58.480 --> 0:38:02.960
<v Speaker 4>regular podcast segment. We're gonna end it with Overrated or

0:38:03.040 --> 0:38:06.680
<v Speaker 4>Underrated and I've got just I've got six things here

0:38:06.760 --> 0:38:09.759
<v Speaker 4>and you just just say, overrated or underrated, and then

0:38:10.000 --> 0:38:14.720
<v Speaker 4>we'll get you out of here. No explanation, no explanation needed.

0:38:14.880 --> 0:38:25.600
<v Speaker 4>Aaron Hills, who overrated template hole golf.

0:38:28.600 --> 0:38:32.520
<v Speaker 2>H overrated to me because I've seen so much of it.

0:38:32.800 --> 0:38:34.960
<v Speaker 3>Okay, Pebble Beach.

0:38:40.520 --> 0:38:42.560
<v Speaker 2>He used to be overrated, might be getting to be

0:38:42.680 --> 0:38:45.640
<v Speaker 2>underrated now because it's like a popular All of that

0:38:45.680 --> 0:38:48.719
<v Speaker 2>place is overrated. I mean there's still like, you know,

0:38:49.000 --> 0:38:51.479
<v Speaker 2>the best stretch of golf holes in America at Pebble Beach.

0:38:52.000 --> 0:38:55.520
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, yeah, that's uh, it's funny how the pendulum swings

0:38:55.560 --> 0:38:56.040
<v Speaker 4>with things.

0:38:57.840 --> 0:39:01.960
<v Speaker 3>Double fairways, very overrated.

0:39:02.080 --> 0:39:04.640
<v Speaker 2>I don't really like that as a design concept that much.

0:39:04.880 --> 0:39:06.440
<v Speaker 2>I think people do it as a gimmick.

0:39:07.320 --> 0:39:10.439
<v Speaker 3>We'll throw in there with it, double.

0:39:10.120 --> 0:39:16.080
<v Speaker 2>Greens, same same, very overrated.

0:39:16.320 --> 0:39:21.160
<v Speaker 3>Okay, Whistling Straights.

0:39:20.600 --> 0:39:32.879
<v Speaker 2>Ooh, you know, overrated with you know, based on its

0:39:32.920 --> 0:39:36.480
<v Speaker 2>golf digest rating, I guess, but but you know, not

0:39:36.680 --> 0:39:39.719
<v Speaker 2>overrated as a project. I mean, to turn what they

0:39:39.800 --> 0:39:43.000
<v Speaker 2>started with into what they finished with is a pretty impressive.

0:39:43.800 --> 0:39:45.640
<v Speaker 2>I just don't think it's one of the top twenty

0:39:45.640 --> 0:39:46.760
<v Speaker 2>golf courses in America.

0:39:47.200 --> 0:39:50.680
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's I kind of agree with it.

0:39:51.000 --> 0:39:53.239
<v Speaker 4>It's an amazing place you should go to, but it's

0:39:53.280 --> 0:39:57.200
<v Speaker 4>not one of the top twenty five courses you should see.

0:39:57.440 --> 0:40:00.840
<v Speaker 4>And then last one, the Great Hazard.

0:40:03.520 --> 0:40:06.000
<v Speaker 2>The Great Hazard, the you.

0:40:05.880 --> 0:40:09.080
<v Speaker 4>Know Hell's half acre par five design that you use

0:40:09.200 --> 0:40:10.960
<v Speaker 4>at stream Song Blue.

0:40:12.600 --> 0:40:15.359
<v Speaker 2>Well, it said nearly everything else is overrated, but I'll

0:40:15.360 --> 0:40:18.920
<v Speaker 2>say that's underrated. I mean you still don't see it

0:40:18.960 --> 0:40:22.880
<v Speaker 2>that much because you know, people are afraid, like you know,

0:40:23.080 --> 0:40:25.760
<v Speaker 2>even stream Song it's like, you know, we really debated

0:40:26.239 --> 0:40:27.920
<v Speaker 2>are we going to really cut this off or are

0:40:27.920 --> 0:40:30.040
<v Speaker 2>we going to give people a way around it somehow,

0:40:30.120 --> 0:40:33.000
<v Speaker 2>because it's just you know, that's more the politically correct

0:40:33.000 --> 0:40:37.479
<v Speaker 2>thing to do. But you know, that's why the Great

0:40:37.480 --> 0:40:40.239
<v Speaker 2>Hazard is underrated. You don't see it that much anymore.

0:40:40.680 --> 0:40:42.839
<v Speaker 2>It's a really cool feature and you just don't get

0:40:42.880 --> 0:40:45.880
<v Speaker 2>to see it because it's not politically correct. Yeah.

0:40:45.960 --> 0:40:47.800
<v Speaker 3>I love the Great Hazard.

0:40:47.920 --> 0:40:50.799
<v Speaker 4>I think it's just genius, especially the way you did

0:40:50.800 --> 0:40:52.920
<v Speaker 4>a stream song where if you have to lay up

0:40:52.960 --> 0:40:55.000
<v Speaker 4>short of it, you still have a chance to get

0:40:55.040 --> 0:40:55.479
<v Speaker 4>to the green.

0:40:58.160 --> 0:41:02.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, I think that's for my case, that's the way.

0:41:02.960 --> 0:41:05.759
<v Speaker 2>That's the way to go. As you know, layoff and

0:41:05.760 --> 0:41:08.560
<v Speaker 2>then you're like two hundred twenty to go and you

0:41:08.600 --> 0:41:11.600
<v Speaker 2>could still pull it off if you get a great shot.

0:41:12.000 --> 0:41:16.080
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I love that that that you brought that back.

0:41:16.400 --> 0:41:18.640
<v Speaker 4>It's something I want to see more of in the future.

0:41:18.800 --> 0:41:21.360
<v Speaker 4>I think it's a great way to defend par fives

0:41:21.440 --> 0:41:26.640
<v Speaker 4>and make it interesting. So Tom, I really appreciate the time.

0:41:26.760 --> 0:41:30.960
<v Speaker 4>You've been awesome and I'm sure all the listeners will

0:41:31.000 --> 0:41:31.319
<v Speaker 4>love it.

0:41:31.480 --> 0:41:32.799
<v Speaker 3>And we, uh.

0:41:33.080 --> 0:41:35.280
<v Speaker 4>We were looking forward to seeing more of your work.

0:41:35.440 --> 0:41:37.080
<v Speaker 4>And thanks for coming on.

0:41:38.680 --> 0:41:42.959
<v Speaker 2>All right, Andy, nice to talk to you. And I'm

0:41:43.160 --> 0:41:45.359
<v Speaker 2>curious to see how many how much response I'll get

0:41:45.360 --> 0:41:48.319
<v Speaker 2>to this. Viously, I've said enough controversial things that you'll

0:41:48.360 --> 0:41:49.520
<v Speaker 2>get somebodys.

0:41:50.120 --> 0:41:54.280
<v Speaker 4>Well, it'll be great. And then for everybody, Tom recently

0:41:54.400 --> 0:41:59.120
<v Speaker 4>joined Instagram. It's at Dope Golf. Sounds like his interns

0:41:59.160 --> 0:42:01.799
<v Speaker 4>got in his ear and uh got them on on

0:42:01.840 --> 0:42:04.479
<v Speaker 4>a social media platform. So if you like seeing great

0:42:04.480 --> 0:42:05.879
<v Speaker 4>golf courses, check it out.