1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:02,520 Speaker 1: All right, we are back with part two of our 2 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:05,720 Speaker 1: podcast with Tom Doak. If you miss part one, check 3 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: it out on our iTunes page or on our website. Also, 4 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,719 Speaker 1: if you enjoy the podcast, please rate us or leave 5 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: a review in iTunes. And without further ado, here is 6 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: Tom Doak. 7 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 2: I miss a green for example, I'm already upset. 8 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 3: When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 9 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 3: And when I find my ball. 10 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 2: In a brid egg Frida egg, the dreaded Friday Friday, 11 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 2: Frida egg brid egg Frida egg bride egg Lie, I'm 12 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 2: about ready to run. 13 00:00:31,840 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 3: Off of the course. I wanted to talk a little 14 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 3: bit about. 15 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 4: Your life as a golf course critic and you know 16 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 4: the travels and you know, obviously playing great golf courses 17 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 4: and seeing different architecture has to help your architectural career. 18 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 4: But for a golfer with limited accessibility, what what would 19 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 4: be your three destinations abroader in the States that you 20 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 4: would recommend traveling to. 21 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 2: Oh man, it's a big question. It's a big world. Yeah, 22 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 2: you know, you know, Scotland and Ireland are geared to 23 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 2: the golf tourist that you know isn't necessarily a member 24 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 2: of a club. I mean, you don't have to have 25 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 2: any clouds to go play Valley Bunty and you just 26 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 2: sign up in advance and pay the green feet and 27 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 2: you're there and you know, and you know, you're you're 28 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 2: getting to see some of the best courses in the world, 29 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 2: and you know, most don't have that much experience with 30 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 2: links golf, so you know, and you're getting to see 31 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 2: the game the way it started and why it started 32 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 2: that way. You know, if you you know, if you 33 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 2: get to spend long enough over there, you know, like 34 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 2: I did spend any year over there after college, you know, 35 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 2: it really becomes a part of you that you know, 36 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 2: it's just a different ethos of golf. So you know, 37 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 2: that would always be my first choice, and I you know, 38 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 2: I get back there fairly regularly, although kind of with 39 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 2: my book project, I've committed myself to go in other 40 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 2: places and i'd you know, I'd be happy just going 41 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 2: back to England or Scotland all the time. But but 42 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 2: I've still got some places that I want to see. 43 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 2: You know, Australia is pretty much the same. You know, 44 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 2: the best courses in Australia, Well, now there's a couple 45 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 2: of them like Barn Google that and the new ones 46 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 2: in King Island that are open to the public. But 47 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 2: you know, even a place like you know, it helps 48 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 2: a little bit if you can write and say I'm 49 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 2: a member of a club in the state, but I 50 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 2: think you can play them even if you're not, if 51 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 2: you write a nice letter. And those are tremendous golf courses, 52 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 2: and you know, and again you know, they have a 53 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 2: lot to teach us too, especially in terms of like 54 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 2: how they use water on golf courses and how dry 55 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 2: and firm they keep it because it doesn't rain much 56 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 2: in Sydney and Melbourne and they have to be more 57 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 2: efficient with water. And you know, California has a lot 58 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 2: to learn from Australia and how to manage water and 59 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 2: golf courses. And you know, you'll never see bunkering like 60 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 2: that anywhere else. You'll never see a bunch of Part 61 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 2: three is as good as you'll see like on every 62 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 2: course at Melbourne. So that's a great destination, kind of 63 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 2: a once in a lifetime place for most people, but 64 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 2: definitely worth the trip. And then you know, there's a 65 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 2: lot of great resorts in America, and you know, I'll 66 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 2: play abandoned dunes. I mean, you know, being able to 67 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 2: go there for a few days and you know and 68 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 2: just stay there and play all those courses and see 69 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 2: how different they are, and you know, it really does 70 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 2: feel like like something in the West of Ireland or 71 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 2: or somewhere in Britain in terms of how the golf 72 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 2: courses play. You know, it's a tremendous place to go 73 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 2: and it's it's a cool thing to have been a 74 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 2: part of. 75 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,359 Speaker 4: And everybody gets gets the chance to play two of 76 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 4: your golf courses. 77 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 3: So that's a that's a big cluss. 78 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm plugging my own work there. You know, I've 79 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,840 Speaker 2: done I've done some stuff in Australia. 80 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, So what course did you go to, whether it's 81 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 4: public or private in the States where you walked in 82 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 4: with very low expectations and were most pleasantly surprised. 83 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,359 Speaker 2: Well, that's happened a lot over the years. Although it's 84 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 2: you know, it's to do now. I mean, you know, 85 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 2: I remember like going to Cruden Bay for the first 86 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 2: time in Scotland and you know, in nineteen eighty two 87 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 2: and I'd only ever seen one picture of it, so 88 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 2: you know, I you know, I knew just enough to know, well, 89 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 2: this could be pretty exciting because it's one picture looks 90 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 2: like it's pretty spectacular piece of land. But I had 91 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 2: no idea what the golf hols are going to be 92 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 2: like until I got there, and that, you know, that 93 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 2: sense of discovery of going around it for the first 94 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 2: time and being all these pool and wild things. You know, 95 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 2: we've kind of lost that a little now because any 96 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 2: any golf course you want to know about you can 97 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 2: find a thousand pictures of on the internet now. But 98 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 2: I still go places that that I'm surprised that, you know, 99 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 2: even if I've seen some pictures of them, it's like, 100 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 2: you know, either because they've done a good restoration or 101 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 2: because you know, they're just not you know, usually it's 102 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 2: it tends to be private clubs, so they're you know, 103 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 2: they're not marketing it. Like you know, the trip I 104 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 2: made last year that was a real eye opener was 105 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 2: going going across Iowa. You know, there's like there's no 106 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 2: golf courses in Iowa that are raided in the Golf 107 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:20,039 Speaker 2: Digest or Golf magazine lists, and and you know, there's 108 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 2: no Alistair McKenzie courses or Killing Half courses, so you know, 109 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 2: there's there's not anything about it where you think, well, 110 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 2: oh yeah, that's going to be a different golf destination. 111 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 2: But you know, the first course I saw you you know, 112 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 2: if you're if you're coming from the east, you go 113 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 2: across the Mississippi River and you're there in the Quad 114 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 2: Cities region and the very first golf course when you 115 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 2: go across the bridge about two miles is an Allison 116 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 2: course called Daventort country Clubs. Is it's just their restoration 117 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 2: of is a terrific golf course. I mean, you know, 118 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 2: we do consulting for Milwaukee Country Club and the Country 119 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 2: Club of Detroit, which are two of the best Allison 120 00:06:57,400 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 2: courses in the States. And I thought this was better 121 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,719 Speaker 2: than the two them. Wow. And yet nobody's you know, 122 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 2: I've never heard that from anybody. So you know, again, 123 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 2: it's a private club is in Iowa, and they don't 124 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 2: market themselves at all, So who's going to know that? Yeah, 125 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 2: And you know, and it was part of the reason 126 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 2: it's not on the Golf Died just list. Until their renovation, 127 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 2: it was only like sixty three or sixty four hundred yards, 128 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 2: so they were dismissing it on that basis. And it's 129 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 2: still you know now at sixty seven hundred, which is 130 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 2: just plenty for me. But there's there's probably some golf died, 131 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 2: just panelists who think that's not fun enough. 132 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 4: Well, I then we're both on that same page with 133 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 4: with the with the panel ratings. 134 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 2: But but there were like five or six courses in 135 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 2: Iowa that I really thought were pretty cool. And you know, 136 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 2: one of them was a Donald Ross course Sea Rapids 137 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 2: that they just renovated and did a great job with. 138 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 2: One of them was a Perry Maxwell course, the one 139 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 2: for Iowa State University as a typically wild Perry Maxwell 140 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 2: green on it, you know. And there was a new 141 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 2: course outside of Des Moines that Keith Foster did which 142 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 2: is probably the best, the best solo design of his career. 143 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 2: So there was really a lot there. And it's just 144 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 2: the fact that they're private and they don't you know, 145 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 2: they're not like northern Michigan where they pool their advertising 146 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 2: dollars and run ads and golf digest so you don't 147 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 2: hear anything about it. M h. 148 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's it. 149 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 4: I'm in the state next to Iowa, and I have 150 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 4: played no golf in Iowa. I think I've only been 151 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 4: there when I visited the University of Iowa. So this 152 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 4: sounds like somewhere I got to go this summer. 153 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 2: Well it's funny too, because I never thought, I mean 154 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 2: I was when I was there, it was like cold 155 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 2: and windy and nat I was there like first of 156 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 2: April or something, and it was it had been really 157 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 2: nice in March, and then it was cold and windy 158 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 2: in April and it was just I mean, I just 159 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 2: froze my butt off for four days walking around seeing 160 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:00,439 Speaker 2: all these courses and trying to play in it once. 161 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 2: But but that's another thing. 162 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:02,439 Speaker 4: I was. 163 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 2: It's windy and Iowah. You know, that's a good thing 164 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 2: for golf. It makes the golf a lot more interesting. 165 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 3: Yeah. 166 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, it adds a as an element and it's uh, 167 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 4: it's just it's different than what a lot of people 168 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 4: experience in places like Chicago or or Philadelphia, where you've 169 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 4: got lots of trees. 170 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 3: So what what architects? 171 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:29,599 Speaker 4: Uh, you know, have you gained a lot of appreciation 172 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:33,320 Speaker 4: for from all these travels and playing all all these courses? 173 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 2: Too many to lift? I mean, you know there's there's 174 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 2: you know, there's four guys that get most of the 175 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 2: attention and then there's four or five others like George Thomas, 176 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 2: because he wrote his book and and did a couple 177 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 2: of courses that are you know, prominent tour side that 178 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 2: they get a fair share of attention. And then most 179 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 2: of the other golf course architects who worked back in 180 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 2: the old days, you know, aren't well known today. Somebody 181 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 2: like Bill Langford who worked around Chicago, or or Perry Maxwell, 182 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 2: who did some of his best work building golf courses 183 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 2: for Alistair Mackenzie but then did some great stuff on 184 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 2: his own. Or Walter Travis. You know, we've worked in 185 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 2: a couple of Travis golf courses and they've been consulting 186 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 2: a Garden City golf club for approaching thirty years. 187 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 4: Now. 188 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 2: You know, they all did some terrific work and and all, 189 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 2: you know, all at this sort of detail level. You know, 190 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 2: they didn't necessarily have a spectacular ocean front site, but 191 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 2: the greens they built and this, you know, in the 192 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 2: bunkers they built, the featuring and and they you know, 193 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 2: they some of them were working on some pretty rugged 194 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 2: terrain and so they came up with golf holes that 195 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 2: that are just different than the kinds of things you 196 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 2: see now. You know, they're they're hillier and the you know, 197 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 2: the I mean, it's the landing area their their original 198 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 2: landing area might have been designed at you learning twenty yards. 199 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 2: So so now you can blow it over that, but 200 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 2: you do so at your peril because because it really 201 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 2: wasn't meant you know, it really wasn't meant to be 202 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 2: played that way, and you can get yourself in a 203 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 2: lot of trouble trying to go for it, you know. 204 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 2: So you know, I've seen so many cool things, and 205 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 2: you know, and I've seen and I've seen more than 206 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 2: a couple that you know, that were designed by people 207 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 2: you never heard of, or nobody even really remembers who 208 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:48,319 Speaker 2: the heck built it, and you know, and yet it's 209 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 2: a cool golf course. So so you know, I wish 210 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 2: people didn't pay as much attention to the names as 211 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 2: they do. Yeah, you know, it sounds crazy. I mean, 212 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 2: you know, my living is the fact. Part of the 213 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 2: reason I make a good living is the fact that 214 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 2: people know who I am. But and and that's you know, 215 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 2: it's and it's hard to you know, I can't remember 216 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 2: like years ago, either either Arnold Palmer or Jack Nicholas. 217 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:17,119 Speaker 2: I think it was. Palmer said that, you know, he'd 218 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 2: really like it if if people came to play one 219 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 2: of his courses and they really liked it, but they 220 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 2: didn't even know who built it. I thought, well, yeah, 221 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 2: but that's hard to do when they put your picture 222 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 2: on the scorecard. 223 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 4: It's it's very it's very, very true. So what I 224 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 4: got I had some Twitter questions I put up and 225 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 4: want to get to some of those. So Jay rigged 226 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 4: and wants to know what are the best nine hole 227 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 4: courses that you've seen and how do you, you know, rate 228 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 4: them compared to an eighteen whole course. 229 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 2: The best nine hole course I've seen is uh Royal 230 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 2: Worlington and Newmarket in England, which which to Cambridge golf 231 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 2: team uses. So it's somewhat famous. But you know there's 232 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 2: one that you know its origin there is a little 233 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 2: bit of a mystery. Harry Colet had something to do 234 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:19,559 Speaker 2: with it at some point, but but the guys who 235 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 2: designed it originally are really kind of known names yet. 236 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 2: I mean, it's on a it's on a tight piece 237 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 2: of land and it's fairly unassuming looking. There's actually a road, 238 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 2: the road that goes by the clubhouse and goes alongside 239 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 2: the first and second hole. You know, you play over 240 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:36,559 Speaker 2: the road at the ninth hole, so you're actually driving 241 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 2: through the golf course. And you could drive through that 242 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 2: golf course in and not give it a second glance, 243 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 2: thinking oh wow, that's really cool. And then but you 244 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 2: get out in the middle of the first fairway and 245 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 2: look at the shot you've got into the green and 246 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 2: it's like, oh my goodness. And the nine holes of that, 247 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 2: I mean, there's there's nine really good holes on a 248 00:13:56,080 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 2: nine holdse which you don't see that much. You know, 249 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 2: there's there's a handful of others. Whittonville in Massachusetts is 250 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 2: a Donald Ross course, and I think that's probably the 251 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 2: best nine hole course in America. Gil Hans just did 252 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 2: a bunch of restoration work on it made it that 253 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 2: much better. But you know, I've been going there. I 254 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 2: haven't been there that many times, but the first time 255 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 2: I went there was like thirty years ago this summer, 256 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 2: so it's always been a favorite. Another one that I 257 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 2: thought for the first time a year or two ago 258 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 2: with super in New Hampshire. It's kind of like not 259 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 2: that far north of Hartford, Connecticut. You just go up 260 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 2: through Massachusetts and you're right there. Styles and Dan Cleek 261 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 2: Course or maybe just Styles actually, but terrific piece of ground. 262 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 2: And then the Dunes Club that my kids have built, 263 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 2: you know, pretty close to my Lost Dunes down in 264 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 2: the corner of like the corner of Michigan as you're 265 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 2: going around the lake towards Chicago, which is a you know, 266 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 2: a really neat, fairly freeform golf course. And you know, 267 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 2: I saw it the first time when it was brand new, 268 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 2: and and before i'd met Mike and and thaught, you know, 269 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 2: just some of the the way they'd done tees, more 270 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 2: free form and stuff. I thought, Wow, this is a 271 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 2: you know, this is the kind of guy I'd like 272 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 2: to work for. And I'm glad I had the team. 273 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 2: As far as how I rate them, I kind of 274 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 2: informally think, you know, it cost them one point on 275 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 2: the dok scale that they're only in nine hole course, 276 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 2: you know, because it's like you know, if you you know, 277 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 2: you know, there there are some there are some very 278 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 2: good golf courses that there's one nine holes that's great 279 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 2: and the other nine holes kind of sucks. I won't 280 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 2: go into specifics today. I saw one of those pretty 281 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 2: reasons actually that I thought, well, yeah, this nine holes 282 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 2: is great. The other night holes, it's like they shouldn't 283 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 2: have even built it. They should just play the play 284 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 2: them one good nine twice. And but you know, you know, 285 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 2: I do that with recognition that it's harder to build 286 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 2: eighteen great holes than it is to just build nine 287 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 2: grade holes. But at the end of the day, if 288 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 2: you've got a really good nine hold course, you know 289 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 2: that's a great golf course and there's no reason to 290 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 2: knock it down that much because there's only nine of 291 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 2: the hole, because you can go play them again. 292 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, and just so people that aren't familiar, Tom came 293 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 4: up with a Dok scale, which is how he rates 294 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 4: golf courses. It's a one through ten and there he 295 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 4: rates them all in his books called The Confidential Guide 296 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 4: to Golf Courses. I highly recommend them if you're into 297 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 4: golf courses. They're they're just terrific things to just read 298 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 4: through and great ways to figure out where you want 299 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 4: to play next. 300 00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 3: Tom tell us a little bit about how you came 301 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 3: up up with the Dok Scale. 302 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 2: It's really kind of a lark. I mean, you know, 303 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 2: the original version of The Confidential God was just written 304 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 2: for I printed forty of them and gave him away 305 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 2: to friends and people that had helped me go around 306 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,159 Speaker 2: and see some of these golf courses, you know, like 307 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 2: I gave I gave George Pepper a copy, and I 308 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 2: gave them Crunchhaw copies. We he die a copy. 309 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:24,919 Speaker 3: You know. 310 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 2: It was because I was writing just for friends. It 311 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 2: was very off the cup and informal and brutally honest. 312 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 2: You know, if I didn't like a famous course, I 313 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:37,919 Speaker 2: just said, don't bother ever going to this place and 314 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,360 Speaker 2: they're making fun of a back call of a hole 315 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:44,239 Speaker 2: that I thought was terrible or whatever, and you know, 316 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 2: and I never really intended for it to be seen 317 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:51,679 Speaker 2: by more than a handful of friends. But you know, 318 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 2: I came up with the Doak scale and given the 319 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 2: courses as zero to ten rating was kind of a 320 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 2: shorting because I really, you know, I think the first 321 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,399 Speaker 2: book covered like six or seven hundred golf courses, so 322 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 2: I was you know, I was only writing a I 323 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 2: only had room to write a paragraph or two about 324 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 2: the golf course, and I couldn't really cover it, you know. 325 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 2: It wasn't like I was going to cover it hole 326 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 2: by hole, So I just thought well, you know, I 327 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:18,239 Speaker 2: want to I want to put a number with it, 328 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 2: so you know, if I write about Augusta, and you know, 329 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 2: because everybody's already read brilliant things about Augusta and all 330 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 2: these people I've given this book to, no Augusta. You know, 331 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 2: I want to write what I don't like about Augusta. 332 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 2: But then I don't want everybody to think, well, he 333 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 2: hates Augusta. He thinks it's the worst concourse in the world, 334 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 2: because he wrote two paragraphs they are bad about it. 335 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 2: So the number was kind of like, no, you know, 336 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 2: it's still a nine on my one to ten scale. 337 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 2: It's out of ten, but it's not a five. I mean, 338 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 2: I really like the golf course. So you know, the 339 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 2: number was kind of a a safety valve check originally. 340 00:18:55,560 --> 00:19:00,080 Speaker 2: But you know, once when I when I decided, on 341 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,160 Speaker 2: the advice of all my friends, that I should really 342 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 2: publish the book for the past because it was you know, basically, 343 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 2: it was what I knew about golf course architecture, was 344 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 2: from seeing all those golf courses, and it would be 345 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 2: good for my career to put that out there, even 346 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 2: if it was controversial. You know. Then the numbers became 347 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 2: like the whole point for most people, which is too bad. 348 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:25,399 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, the to me, the book is 349 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 2: still about what I have to write about the golf course. 350 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:33,120 Speaker 2: You know what, Why do I think you should go here? What? 351 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:35,879 Speaker 2: What's interesting about this golf course? It would make you 352 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,160 Speaker 2: want to travel all the way to see it. That's 353 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 2: really the purpose of the book, you know. It's not 354 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:45,679 Speaker 2: It's not meant to be doke critiques every architect whoever 355 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 2: with It's meant to be like, you only have so 356 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 2: much timey andy. So if you're going to England, you 357 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 2: know which of these courses should you try to go see? 358 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 2: And it's written in a way that yes, I've got 359 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,240 Speaker 2: numbers on them, and you could say, well, I'll go 360 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 2: to all the nines in the eighth and the sevens 361 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,959 Speaker 2: and I'll use that as a cutoff, you know, but 362 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,239 Speaker 2: that's not really how you know, you shouldn't even do that. 363 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 2: You should read what I say about the golf courses 364 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 2: and you should look at which ones they're close together 365 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 2: and go, oh, yeah, you only gave that a five, 366 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 2: But it sounds pretty cool, So maybe I should go 367 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,679 Speaker 2: see that, you know. And I'm not expecting it to 368 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 2: be one of the top hundred courses in the world. 369 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 2: But it's you know, it's going to be cool enough 370 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 2: to go be worth spending four hours, yep. And that's 371 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:33,440 Speaker 2: you know, and that's you know, that's been the success 372 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,160 Speaker 2: of the books, that it works really well on that level, 373 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 2: and the people that go out of their way to 374 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 2: see some of course they never heard of because I 375 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:47,160 Speaker 2: recommended it, are mostly pretty pleased by having made their detour. 376 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's I think it's it's just a great resource 377 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 4: for if you're unfamiliar with an area. I mean, you 378 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 4: can learn so much about different courses and just figure 379 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,159 Speaker 4: out you know, the I always say to people they 380 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 4: should have a you know, a purpose for why they 381 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,640 Speaker 4: want to play somewhere, and it does a great job 382 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 4: of giving you a reason to go play somewhere. 383 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, I just you know, I was 384 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 2: involved in the rankings of courses with Golf Magazine back 385 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 2: from almost the time they started doing and I'm not 386 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 2: involved in that anymore. And I really think, you know, 387 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:31,440 Speaker 2: all those rankings is just you know, they've overpowered everything else. 388 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 2: It's like, you know, I know these panelists that like 389 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 2: they go to Asia for a week and they go 390 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 2: play two courses in Korea and three in Japan and 391 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 2: one in Thailand. And you know, because they're quote unquote 392 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 2: top one hundred golf courses or curious candidates for the 393 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,199 Speaker 2: top one hundred, and they drive right by, you know, 394 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,360 Speaker 2: they're I mean like Japan is the best example of that. 395 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 2: You know, Kasumi Giseki used to be ranked in the 396 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,159 Speaker 2: top hundred golf courses and I can't remember if it 397 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,959 Speaker 2: still is now or not, but there was another course 398 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 2: that Allison had something to do with, Tokyo Golf Club 399 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 2: get next door to it, and for years Canilis never 400 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 2: went there. They would go to Kasumikoseki because it was 401 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 2: in the top hundred and they wanted to see all 402 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,159 Speaker 2: the top one hundred, and nobody would go. You know, 403 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,400 Speaker 2: it's not even across the street, it's like works off 404 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 2: the same driveway, but you couldn't get anybody to go there, 405 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 2: you know, because they had to get on a plane 406 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 2: to go to Thailand tomorrow instead. And that just bothered 407 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,920 Speaker 2: the hell out of me. You know, I just think, well, 408 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 2: you know, go see you know, actually goes if you're 409 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 2: going to take a golf trip to Japan, for God's sake, 410 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 2: go see Japan. It's and that's you see the same 411 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 2: thing in Scotland. You know, people people go to Scotland 412 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 2: and you know, if this is their first trip to Scotland, 413 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 2: they think, well, I may never get to do this 414 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:58,400 Speaker 2: again in my life, so I've got to go see 415 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 2: all the Open champions courses in Scotland and then and then, 416 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 2: but I also want to see Dornick because because everybody 417 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 2: says it's a great golf course. So you know, so 418 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 2: that means that you're you know, you're driving two hours 419 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 2: from Edinburgh to Saint Andrew's and you're driving two or 420 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 2: three hours more to get over to Troon, and then 421 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 2: you're driving like five hours to get up at Dornic 422 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 2: and five hours coming back, and you skipped so many 423 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 2: good golf courses in between there it's a joke. 424 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, and and you're all that time in the car 425 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 4: you could have played two or three more rounds of 426 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 4: golf and seeing you know, it's like, just because they're 427 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 4: an open road of course, doesn't mean for the ten 428 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 4: handicap that it's the best place to go play. 429 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:43,360 Speaker 3: I think, you know, no. 430 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:45,919 Speaker 2: The only thing it means is it's the most expensive 431 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 2: golf course are going to see in the k you know, 432 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 2: they charge two hundred and fifty dollars for all of them. 433 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 2: And you know there could be a good golf course 434 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 2: down the street that there's still only charge at sixty 435 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,119 Speaker 2: four because it's not so well known. And that's you know, 436 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 2: so that's part of you know, that's part of the 437 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:05,919 Speaker 2: confidential guide to it. It's like, you know, my little 438 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 2: intros to the different sections are basically, for God's sake, 439 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 2: don't do that. You know, if you're you know, if 440 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 2: you're going to Scotland, just assume that you're going to 441 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 2: like it and want to go back again some days. 442 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 2: So don't try to touch all the bases this trip. 443 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 2: Just you know, pick a couple areas and see some 444 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 2: of the little golf courses because you know, a lot 445 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 2: of times you you get more out of that. I mean, 446 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 2: it's like, you know, you know, if you're staying around, say, 447 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 2: you know, if you're staying around where Mirfield is out 448 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 2: there to the east of Edinburgh and you know, and 449 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,160 Speaker 2: you take time to play North Derrick and you take 450 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,199 Speaker 2: time to play Gullin, but maybe you've got time to 451 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 2: go see like you'll Skindy to this little fifty four 452 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 2: hundred yard golf course that the you know, par sixty 453 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 2: eighth and the first t is like literally, you know, 454 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 2: as soon as you step off the pavement the walkway 455 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 2: from around the clubhouse, you're on the tee. And the 456 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 2: first of all the part three in the greens like 457 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 2: one hundred and sixty yards right over there was a 458 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 2: really hard shot. And then the eighteenth green is like 459 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,679 Speaker 2: steps away from the first team and you know, it 460 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 2: was fifty four hundred yards and most Americans have dismissed that, 461 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 2: but then they go and play it and it's not 462 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 2: so easy, and it's a very intimate little place and 463 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 2: you play it in like two hours because it's so compact. 464 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,919 Speaker 2: You know, you have to have that experience somewhere to 465 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 2: understand that, you know, golf courses don't all have to 466 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 2: be the same, and they don't all have to be 467 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 2: seven thousand yards long. But if all you go to 468 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 2: is the Open championship courses that you know, they've all 469 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:50,160 Speaker 2: been rectified, and you know they're not you know, they're 470 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 2: not as quirky as everything else in Scotland, and they're 471 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 2: really cool by far. The coolest part of going to 472 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 2: Scotland is that you will see some things that you 473 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 2: would never see anywhere else, because you know, you can't 474 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:07,439 Speaker 2: tell the Scotts that they don't know about going, you know, 475 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,120 Speaker 2: you know you can't tell him, well, fifty four under 476 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,680 Speaker 2: your course that is that's no. They're like, of course, 477 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,439 Speaker 2: it's yeah, you know, it's a lot of fun. What 478 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 2: are you talking about? 479 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 3: It's uh, that's that, it's funny. 480 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 4: My my buddy is going exactly to in Edinburgh and 481 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:30,400 Speaker 4: I recommended North Barrack and uh going, but that's a perfect, 482 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:36,360 Speaker 4: perfect U Kills Beanery is the perfect recommendation for him 483 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 4: because he's he's asking. 484 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:38,920 Speaker 3: You know, he's asking for more. 485 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 4: What Jeff wants to know, what are five courses in 486 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:50,439 Speaker 4: North America that you haven't played yet that are on 487 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 4: your list? 488 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:59,160 Speaker 2: M You know, that's hard for me to answer, because 489 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,160 Speaker 2: I've been you know, part of the reason for going 490 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 2: back and updating the Confidential Guy is to check some 491 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,119 Speaker 2: of these places off my list. But then I have 492 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 2: to admit to you that I don't you know, I 493 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 2: don't always have time to play everywhere. You know, I'm 494 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 2: trying to see a bunch of courses if I can 495 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 2: tell other people about them, and I don't always have 496 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,119 Speaker 2: time to play, or I get there and you know, 497 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 2: it's thirty eight degrees and blowing at thirty miles an hour, 498 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 2: and I couldn't go out and play an app But 499 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 2: if I did, then I'm not going to go see 500 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 2: the course twenty miles down the road too. So so 501 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 2: the only one that comes to the top of my 502 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:39,199 Speaker 2: head of you know. I mean, I've played most of 503 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,679 Speaker 2: the top fifty golf courses in the world, and I 504 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 2: think the only one that I haven't played is oakmar 505 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 2: I've been to Oakmont like three or four times, and 506 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 2: it just it never worked out for me to play. 507 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 2: When I was there, you know, I was like I 508 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,679 Speaker 2: was welcome to play, but they had an event going on. 509 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 2: Or I was going to play but we got ringed 510 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 2: out or something. So you know, so so one of 511 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 2: these days I'm going to go do that because I 512 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 2: really love the golf course. But you know, I wish 513 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,439 Speaker 2: I had more time to play golf. I mean, you know, 514 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 2: I get invitations from people all the time, oh, come, 515 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 2: you know, come play here, and it's like, well, I'd 516 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 2: love to, but but but I'm traveling a lot of 517 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,200 Speaker 2: days still building golf courses, and then and then I'm 518 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 2: crazy enough to take on this book project, and I 519 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,880 Speaker 2: need to go see golf courses in Korea and Vietnam 520 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 2: this year, and I just don't have much time to 521 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 2: get back to to Nebraska and play. 522 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 3: Mm hm. 523 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 4: So I got this, I got this question a couple 524 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 4: of times. Easiest change for a golf course to make 525 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 4: that would have the biggest effects. 526 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:54,479 Speaker 3: In terms of improving it. 527 00:28:54,640 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 2: I assume, well, you know, I don't do a lot 528 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 2: of like renovation projects where we really change a golf 529 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 2: course dramatically. I mean, we we do restoration projects. But 530 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 2: trying to take a golf course that's not that great 531 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 2: and turn it into something great, you know, I've kind 532 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 2: of avoided because it's all a matter of opinion, you know. 533 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 2: And when you've got three hundred members that that joined 534 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 2: the place because presumably they kind of like it, you know, 535 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 2: blowing it up and turn it into something different, there's 536 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 2: a really big you know, you're going way out on 537 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 2: a limb to do that. So you know to me that, 538 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 2: you know, the two things that make a golf course 539 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 2: really good are the routing and the set of groups. 540 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 2: And you know, it's really it's really almost impossible to 541 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 2: change the routing of a golf course after it's been 542 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 2: there for fifty years, and I've you know, planted trees 543 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 2: and done everything else to reinforce the routing, you know, 544 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 2: changing it and just completely redoing it. You're just blowing 545 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 2: it up and making a hold of golf course. So 546 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 2: I won't I won't take that as an example. You know, 547 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,719 Speaker 2: the best thing that you could possibly do, the biggest 548 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 2: impact by far, would be building a really good set 549 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 2: of greens. But again, that's the step that most clubs 550 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 2: don't want to make because you've got to close the 551 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 2: golf course to do it. You're basically closing for a 552 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 2: year to rebuild the greens. But that would certainly be 553 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 2: the most impactful thing, you know, as far as the 554 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 2: easiest thing to do. To me, it's getting the mowing 555 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 2: lines right, you know, getting the corners of the greens 556 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 2: back to where they used to be so you can 557 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 2: jam a pin over in the corner. Because because most 558 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 2: old golf courses, those things have kind of got rounded 559 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 2: off over time, and and you know, the very coolest 560 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 2: little edges of the golf course just aren't in play. 561 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 2: The city. Same with you know, getting the fairway lines 562 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 2: back to the right places. You know that sometimes that 563 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 2: get that introduces a lot of strategy. Back to the 564 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 2: golf course that it's just you know, it's been narrowed 565 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 2: up kind of arbitrarily to get it to thirty yards 566 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 2: wide because that's what the sprinkler here covers. And you 567 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 2: know they've they've missed the in kind of a hole 568 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 2: when they did that. 569 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's I see that. At the course I play at. 570 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 4: There's a one green. It's a Donald Ross. There's one 571 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 4: green that used to be this massive green and and 572 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 4: like half the green is missing because of because of 573 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 4: a sprinkler, because of sprinklers, and you see this like 574 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,239 Speaker 4: where this green used to go, and it's like that 575 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 4: might have been the best green in all of Chicago. 576 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 2: But which is that. 577 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 4: It's a Calumet country club. It's down by the Phlossmoor 578 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 4: and Olympia and Ravslow. It's a the a highway cut 579 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 4: through it, and now it's you know, overgrown, kind of 580 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 4: the story of a lot of Chicago country clubs. But 581 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 4: they're starting to take trees down and we're getting it back. 582 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 4: But there's this one green that is just unbelievable if 583 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 4: they had, if they could get it back. But there's 584 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 4: you know, it's it's a club that's low on money, 585 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 4: and there's a sprinkler right in the middle of where 586 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 4: that part of the green would be, So it's got constraints. 587 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 4: So somebody asked if there was one, you know, one 588 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 4: place you could play that's accessible to the public, that 589 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 4: you could walk in the afternoon, was a Sunday bag, 590 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 4: what course would it be? 591 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 3: And you only get one? 592 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the hardest thing. I mean, you know, I've 593 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 2: been to fifteen hundred golf courses and most of the 594 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 2: best golf course in the world. So any of these 595 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 2: questions were anybody asked me you only get one, I 596 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 2: just have to you know, I just have to laugh 597 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 2: at like, so go back, what are my criteria. 598 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 3: Let's say it's it. 599 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 5: Let's walk it with a Sunday bag in the afternoon 600 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 5: in the States, We'll say in the States, and it's accessible, 601 00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 5: it's accessible, and it's not mine. 602 00:32:59,320 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 2: I'll throw in it. 603 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 3: Not we'll do that too. 604 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 2: But accessible part really narrows it down a lot. Possimo 605 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 2: is a great course and it's a little hilly for 606 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 2: some people to walk, So so that would be a 607 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 2: little tough to recommend, but but that's one of the 608 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 2: first places that springs to mind. I'll pick one that's 609 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 2: not far from where I'm talking today, in traversity. There's 610 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 2: there's an old club in northern Michigan called Belvedere, which 611 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 2: is a semi private club. They're only like, you know, 612 00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 2: basically the members around for two months in the summer, 613 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 2: and it's harder to get onto those two months, but 614 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 2: the rest of the time, the public's welcome. All you 615 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,360 Speaker 2: have to do is calling. And you know, it's a 616 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,799 Speaker 2: really cool, simple, old golf course laid out on a 617 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 2: farm by Willie Watson, and you know, he liked it 618 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,279 Speaker 2: enough that when George Thomas was doing his book on architecture, 619 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,879 Speaker 2: he sent him a couple of diagrams of the whole 620 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 2: There's actually three of them and they're all in Thomas's book. So, 621 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 2: you know, I thought out the place the first time 622 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 2: it came up here, and it was kind of you know, 623 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 2: at that point, it was really kind of run down 624 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 2: and they didn't have much money to spend on it. 625 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 2: But they've done a really nice job of fixing it 626 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 2: up and it was host for the Michigan Amateur for 627 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,399 Speaker 2: years and years and years. They just went back there 628 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 2: every year and everybody loved coming north and playing there. 629 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,719 Speaker 2: And then somebody, you know, somebody of the Golf Association said, 630 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 2: oh no, we have to move this around all over 631 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 2: the state to different places, so not everybody has to 632 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 2: go north every year. And you know, mostly good amateurs 633 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:02,839 Speaker 2: in Michigan are still kissed about it. 634 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 3: I've heard a lot of great things about. 635 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,279 Speaker 2: It, and it's very it's it's a very simple golf 636 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 2: course with a really good mm hmm. 637 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,839 Speaker 4: So thanks so much for the time. You've been more 638 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,840 Speaker 4: than generous. We're going to get you out here. Last 639 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 4: question and then we've got an overrated, underrated segment we're 640 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:27,719 Speaker 4: going to throw at you. But last question is, you 641 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 4: know you famously through your book, through writing, how much 642 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 4: you'd love to get do a bell Air renovation. It 643 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 4: sounds like you've secured, you know, doing a bell Air restoration. 644 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:41,920 Speaker 4: What would be the next golf course that you would 645 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 4: most want to do a restoration up? 646 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 2: Oh, well, you know, the bell Air thing came up 647 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,160 Speaker 2: pretty funny because I think Rand more Fit asked that 648 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,880 Speaker 2: question and a you know, we were we just finished 649 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 2: volume two of the Confidential Guys. So for some reason, 650 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 2: bell Air was on my mind and I just blurted 651 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,879 Speaker 2: it out. And you know, I should have been more 652 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:09,239 Speaker 2: careful because the problem with answering your question is there's 653 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 2: always some consulting architect that's already working there, which in 654 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,040 Speaker 2: bel Air's case with Tom Fabio, and I just kind 655 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 2: of stepped on him and said, gee, you know, I 656 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:20,880 Speaker 2: wish they were doing something different. And I had no 657 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,400 Speaker 2: idea even knew anybody at bell Air, but it turned 658 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 2: out I knew like two or three of the younger 659 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 2: guys that were on the Green Committee, so they all 660 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 2: so they called me about it, and yeah, a year 661 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:33,799 Speaker 2: and a half later, where you know, we're gonna we're 662 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 2: gonna start a renovation there this fall. So now I 663 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,960 Speaker 2: you know, now I'm thinking, oh, you know politics. Do 664 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,239 Speaker 2: you know where can I say that that somebody's not 665 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 2: going to be mad that I said it, or I'm 666 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:49,319 Speaker 2: trying to steal their job away from them. So I 667 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,400 Speaker 2: don't even know if I can answer the question because 668 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:51,719 Speaker 2: of that. 669 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 3: It's like, hey, well we'll give you we'll give you up. 670 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 2: In that little okay, I mentioned that little nine whole 671 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:04,319 Speaker 2: course I saw in New Hampshire, New Hampshire. You know 672 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,319 Speaker 2: it's it's barely hanging on as a golf course, surviving 673 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 2: year to year. They don't even have enough money to 674 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 2: keep their pretty little clubhouse open. It would not take 675 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 2: very much to get it back to just looking perfect 676 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,439 Speaker 2: like they've done for White and Phille, and I would 677 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 2: love to be part of that. I'd do that for 678 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 2: a dollar because it's a cool little golf course. But 679 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 2: you know, I'd only do it if if they get 680 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 2: their leaf with the town right to make sure the 681 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,320 Speaker 2: place survive, and that seems to be an issue for 682 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 2: them right now, so I don't I don't know where 683 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,319 Speaker 2: that's going, but i'd love to It is a great 684 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,440 Speaker 2: golf course. I'd really love to help them. Need is 685 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 2: somebody nobody consulting there, So I'm on stave ground. 686 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 4: Whoever's listening from the Northeast that has a passion for 687 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,920 Speaker 4: golf courses, you know, that's the one they got to 688 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,799 Speaker 4: go check out. So this is gonna be a new 689 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:02,960 Speaker 4: regular podcast segment. We're gonna end it with Overrated or 690 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 4: Underrated and I've got just I've got six things here 691 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,759 Speaker 4: and you just just say, overrated or underrated, and then 692 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:14,720 Speaker 4: we'll get you out of here. No explanation, no explanation needed. 693 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 4: Aaron Hills, who overrated template hole golf. 694 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:32,520 Speaker 2: H overrated to me because I've seen so much of it. 695 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:34,960 Speaker 3: Okay, Pebble Beach. 696 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:42,560 Speaker 2: He used to be overrated, might be getting to be 697 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 2: underrated now because it's like a popular All of that 698 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,719 Speaker 2: place is overrated. I mean there's still like, you know, 699 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:51,479 Speaker 2: the best stretch of golf holes in America at Pebble Beach. 700 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's uh, it's funny how the pendulum swings 701 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 4: with things. 702 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,960 Speaker 3: Double fairways, very overrated. 703 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 2: I don't really like that as a design concept that much. 704 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:06,440 Speaker 2: I think people do it as a gimmick. 705 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,439 Speaker 3: We'll throw in there with it, double. 706 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 2: Greens, same same, very overrated. 707 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:21,160 Speaker 3: Okay, Whistling Straights. 708 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:32,879 Speaker 2: Ooh, you know, overrated with you know, based on its 709 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:36,480 Speaker 2: golf digest rating, I guess, but but you know, not 710 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,719 Speaker 2: overrated as a project. I mean, to turn what they 711 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:43,000 Speaker 2: started with into what they finished with is a pretty impressive. 712 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 2: I just don't think it's one of the top twenty 713 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:46,760 Speaker 2: golf courses in America. 714 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's I kind of agree with it. 715 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,239 Speaker 4: It's an amazing place you should go to, but it's 716 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:57,200 Speaker 4: not one of the top twenty five courses you should see. 717 00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,840 Speaker 4: And then last one, the Great Hazard. 718 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,000 Speaker 2: The Great Hazard, the you. 719 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 4: Know Hell's half acre par five design that you use 720 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:10,960 Speaker 4: at stream Song Blue. 721 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,359 Speaker 2: Well, it said nearly everything else is overrated, but I'll 722 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,920 Speaker 2: say that's underrated. I mean you still don't see it 723 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,880 Speaker 2: that much because you know, people are afraid, like you know, 724 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,760 Speaker 2: even stream Song it's like, you know, we really debated 725 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:27,920 Speaker 2: are we going to really cut this off or are 726 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,040 Speaker 2: we going to give people a way around it somehow, 727 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 2: because it's just you know, that's more the politically correct 728 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:37,479 Speaker 2: thing to do. But you know, that's why the Great 729 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,239 Speaker 2: Hazard is underrated. You don't see it that much anymore. 730 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:42,839 Speaker 2: It's a really cool feature and you just don't get 731 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:45,880 Speaker 2: to see it because it's not politically correct. Yeah. 732 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:47,800 Speaker 3: I love the Great Hazard. 733 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,799 Speaker 4: I think it's just genius, especially the way you did 734 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:52,920 Speaker 4: a stream song where if you have to lay up 735 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,000 Speaker 4: short of it, you still have a chance to get 736 00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:55,479 Speaker 4: to the green. 737 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:02,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's for my case, that's the way. 738 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,759 Speaker 2: That's the way to go. As you know, layoff and 739 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,560 Speaker 2: then you're like two hundred twenty to go and you 740 00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:11,600 Speaker 2: could still pull it off if you get a great shot. 741 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:16,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, I love that that that you brought that back. 742 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:18,640 Speaker 4: It's something I want to see more of in the future. 743 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,360 Speaker 4: I think it's a great way to defend par fives 744 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:26,640 Speaker 4: and make it interesting. So Tom, I really appreciate the time. 745 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,960 Speaker 4: You've been awesome and I'm sure all the listeners will 746 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:31,319 Speaker 4: love it. 747 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:32,799 Speaker 3: And we, uh. 748 00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,280 Speaker 4: We were looking forward to seeing more of your work. 749 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:37,080 Speaker 4: And thanks for coming on. 750 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:42,959 Speaker 2: All right, Andy, nice to talk to you. And I'm 751 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:45,359 Speaker 2: curious to see how many how much response I'll get 752 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:48,319 Speaker 2: to this. Viously, I've said enough controversial things that you'll 753 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 2: get somebodys. 754 00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:54,280 Speaker 4: Well, it'll be great. And then for everybody, Tom recently 755 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:59,120 Speaker 4: joined Instagram. It's at Dope Golf. Sounds like his interns 756 00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:01,799 Speaker 4: got in his ear and uh got them on on 757 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,479 Speaker 4: a social media platform. So if you like seeing great 758 00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:05,879 Speaker 4: golf courses, check it out.