Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim
Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Manky. Listener discretion advised.
Speaker 2: Hello. I am so delighted to be joined today by
Speaker 2: the brilliant historian and author Tracy Borman. She's written so
Speaker 2: many both novels and brilliant works of history, including Elizabeth's Women,
Speaker 2: which I would say is like the seminal work on
Speaker 2: the Court of Elizabeth I realizing now that might be
Speaker 2: incorrect word choice, but has written brilliantly all about the tutors,
Speaker 2: and her latest book is Anne Boleyn and Elizabeth, the first,
Speaker 2: I believe, the first, if I'm correct, dual biography of
Speaker 2: the two women.
Speaker 3: Yes, which is extraordinary because they're two of the best
Speaker 3: known women in history, and yet their stories have never
Speaker 3: been told together. And I have wanted to ever since
Speaker 3: writing Elizabeth's Women, actually because Anne Bolyn could only have
Speaker 3: a chapter of that book, there were fifty other women
Speaker 3: who I wrote about, and I always wanted to go
Speaker 3: back because I found out enough to really intrigue me
Speaker 3: and think, you know what, there's more of a story here.
Speaker 3: So it's been an absolute joy, just very forensically looking
Speaker 3: at their dual history.
Speaker 2: I would love to get started with Anne Bolin, who
Speaker 2: is one of the most popular figures in the popular
Speaker 2: imagination of the Tudor court. I think for good reason.
Speaker 2: Why do you think she is such an intriguing figure
Speaker 2: for so many years?
Speaker 3: Yeah, and wouldn't Henry the eighth have hated that that
Speaker 3: we're still talking about her.
Speaker 4: More than the other five wives.
Speaker 3: I think a lot has to do with the fact
Speaker 3: that Anne seems to us actually strikingly modern. She was
Speaker 3: a woman who wasn't content just to conform to the
Speaker 3: stereotype of a Tudor woman, who was very much a
Speaker 3: second class citizen, submissive to the men in her family.
Speaker 4: Whereas Anne arrives like a rocket on.
Speaker 3: The English scene from France, and she's full of ideas
Speaker 3: about female power and she wants to put them into effect.
Speaker 3: So and I love the fact, as I think many
Speaker 3: people do that you know, she stood up to Henry
Speaker 3: the eighth and she gave as good as she got,
Speaker 3: but ultimately it was it was sort of her undoing
Speaker 3: that and of course her failure, as Henry saw it,
Speaker 3: to give him a son. But of course, as well
Speaker 3: as being modern, is also incredibly dramatic and ultimately tragic,
Speaker 3: and I think that that holds a kind of timeless appeal.
Speaker 2: I've seen people, historians sort of over the centuries, frame
Speaker 2: her as a Protestant martyr, or a complete victim, or
Speaker 2: a schemer, you know, with some nefarious aims. How would
Speaker 2: do you characterize her?
Speaker 3: Probably a combination of those things. I'm not one hundred
Speaker 3: percent convinced that she was gunning for the throne from
Speaker 3: the start, and that's why she held Henry at bay.
Speaker 3: I think she probably wasn't at all sure about what
Speaker 3: she was getting into. I think what she was sure
Speaker 3: about was not just wanting to be a mistress, because
Speaker 3: she'd seen how quickly Henry discarded those. Her own sister
Speaker 3: Mary had been one of them, so she was holding
Speaker 3: out for something more. But I don't really buy into
Speaker 3: the idea that she was scheming from the start to
Speaker 3: kind of ensnare Henry so that he would make her
Speaker 3: his queen. I think perhaps that idea was more to
Speaker 3: do with her family and her ambitious father and brother.
Speaker 3: But for Anne, I think she's more of an enigma,
Speaker 3: and that's only increased by the fact that we have
Speaker 3: all of Henry's love letters to her. But none of
Speaker 3: Anne's replies to him, So what was Anne feeling? I think,
Speaker 3: whether you know, you do believe that she was scheming
Speaker 3: for the throne. She was a very skilled political operator.
Speaker 3: She was, I believe, a genuine religious reformer. She had
Speaker 3: ideas that she really wanted to put into effect on
Speaker 3: social reform as well as religious reform. So she was
Speaker 3: so far ahead of her time, and I think she's
Speaker 3: really to be admired for that.
Speaker 2: How much agency do you ascribe to Anne as opposed
Speaker 2: to the powerful men in her life, her father, brother, uncle.
Speaker 3: I think she had an unusual degree of agency, and
Speaker 3: I think a comparison would be useful here with another
Speaker 3: of the Six wives, Katherine Howard, who was also, like Anne,
Speaker 3: accused and condemned for adultery, and in Catherine's case, I
Speaker 3: think she was guilty. But then I think we've reappraised
Speaker 3: Catherine in recent years rightly so, because how much agency
Speaker 3: did she have in any of those relationships with the
Speaker 3: men in her life? Her music tutor, She was just
Speaker 3: thirteen when some kind of relationship happened there, So I
Speaker 3: think Catherine didn't have a great deal of power over
Speaker 3: her own destiny. But I think Anne much more so.
Speaker 3: From her early years she was described as being very
Speaker 3: toward or very clever and opinionated, and yeah, she had
Speaker 3: big ideas and the vision to carry them through. And
Speaker 3: she made Henry the eighth sit up and listen, and
Speaker 3: you know she can do that, then she's got a
Speaker 3: lot of agency.
Speaker 2: I think, do you believe then that she was sort
Speaker 2: of innocent of the adultery charges presented against her?
Speaker 4: One hundred percent?
Speaker 3: I think if you look at the various charges, Anne
Speaker 3: wasn't even in the same place as her accused lovers
Speaker 3: on nearly all of them, and it just doesn't fit
Speaker 3: with what we know of Anne Bolyn. Here is not
Speaker 3: a woman who is lacking in self control. She's held
Speaker 3: Henry at bay for seven years and it just doesn't
Speaker 3: add up to me. I think her only, if you
Speaker 3: can call it, that, is not giving Henry a son.
Speaker 3: If she had, there's no way he'd have executed her,
Speaker 3: or had the marriage and olds, she would have been
Speaker 3: protected for life.
Speaker 2: It's one of those things where history could have veered
Speaker 2: so so much based on just that one little accent
Speaker 2: of genetics.
Speaker 3: It could and of course the irony is, as we've
Speaker 3: been discussing, she has all of this sort of agency,
Speaker 3: and she's got this great brain, but ultimately she's judged
Speaker 3: by her body and her body's failure to produce that
Speaker 3: male air, and really, in Henry's eyes, nothing else matters.
Speaker 2: Well, speaking of airs, the one child she does provide
Speaker 2: is Elizabeth, who, of course Henry could have had no knowledge,
Speaker 2: would have reigned in one of the most brilliant periods
Speaker 2: for English history. What was your thought process in doing
Speaker 2: this dual biography when Elizabeth never met her mother?
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean Elizabeth was only in Anne's life
Speaker 3: all the other way around, actually for two years and
Speaker 3: eight months, so it was a very brief relationship. And
Speaker 3: actually at the age of three months only, Elizabeth was
Speaker 3: removed from Anne and, according to royal traditions, set up
Speaker 3: in her own household. And even though Anne visited when
Speaker 3: she could, those occasions were rare because the pressure was
Speaker 3: on her to of course have a son, so she
Speaker 3: was kept at court a lot of the time, but
Speaker 3: it wasn't a case of out of sight, out of mind,
Speaker 3: and sent regular gifts to Elizabeth. I think she inspired
Speaker 3: Elizabeth's later love of fashion because she was always sending
Speaker 3: these gorgeous made to measure dresses and velvet caps. But
Speaker 3: the influence of Anne on Elizabeth was much more profound
Speaker 3: than that. And I think Elizabeth was every bit, if
Speaker 3: not more so, as intelligent as her mother. She grew
Speaker 3: up curious about her, clearly, and she grew up to
Speaker 3: be fascinated by Anne Berlin. And the more she found out,
Speaker 3: I think the more Elizabeth got a sense that Anne
Speaker 3: had been ill served by her father's justice, if you
Speaker 3: can even call it that. I love that quote by
Speaker 3: Anne on the scaffold when she said, you know, I
Speaker 3: require any person, if they should meddle in my cause,
Speaker 3: that they shall judge the best or words to that effect.
Speaker 3: And I think really Elizabeth spent her life meddling in
Speaker 3: her mother's cause, and she did judge the best. She
Speaker 3: came to the right conclusion that her mother had been terribly,
Speaker 3: terribly wronged, and that was a wrong that Elizabeth wanted
Speaker 3: to put right. So she was her mother's daughter through
Speaker 3: and through.
Speaker 2: One thing that you can connect the lines between Elizabeth
Speaker 2: and her mother are the ability that Elizabeth had throughout
Speaker 2: her life, even though she famously never married, that you
Speaker 2: can continue to entertain suitors to her advantage.
Speaker 4: She did.
Speaker 2: Do you draw that line from her to her mother.
Speaker 3: I do absolutely, and that's something I really explore in
Speaker 3: the book, in that both mother and daughter played the
Speaker 3: game of courtly love, and they were both great flirts. Actually,
Speaker 3: they loved mail company, and they love to keep themselves
Speaker 3: just out of reach. But Elizabeth had learned from her
Speaker 3: mother's example, and she'd learned that she needed to keep
Speaker 3: the boundaries very strict, indeed, and allow.
Speaker 4: No room for doubt.
Speaker 3: There might be gossip, but it had to be unfounded gossip.
Speaker 3: So Elizabeth was very strict in upholding the etiquette and
Speaker 3: the morality of her court. It's no accident that Elizabeth's
Speaker 3: court was described as being at once both gay, decent,
Speaker 3: and superb. And that word decent was quite deliberate.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: She might be this great flirt like her, but she
Speaker 3: knew very well what had happened to her mother, and
Speaker 3: she was going to draw those boundaries very very clearly.
Speaker 3: So I do believe Elizabeth lived and died the Virgin Queen.
Speaker 2: As you know, several historians I think also like to
Speaker 2: speculate about her relationship with her favorite Lord Darnley now
Speaker 2: Flord to Jesus Dudley, pardon me, haven't had my coffee
Speaker 2: an now, I know, but I think I'm with you
Speaker 2: that it would be too much of a risk for
Speaker 2: too high a position.
Speaker 3: And I think a really telling piece of evidence came
Speaker 3: in fifteen sixty two. So Elizabeth had been queen for
Speaker 3: four years when she almost died. She contracted smallpox, one
Speaker 3: of the most dangerous diseases of the age. And she
Speaker 3: was at Hampton Court, where I work. This is not
Speaker 3: just so that I can name drop working Hampton called
Speaker 3: this little story.
Speaker 4: But she believed she.
Speaker 3: Was on her deathbed, and she summoned her confessor priest,
Speaker 3: and she avowed that nothing had ever passed between her
Speaker 3: and Robert Dudley. And you know, cynical listeners might say, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: it's easy to say those things, not in this god
Speaker 3: fearing age where you wouldn't tell a lie on your
Speaker 3: deathbed because you would think you were going to hell
Speaker 3: for eternity.
Speaker 4: So you know, I do believe Elizabeth spoke the truth.
Speaker 3: And also you know, as she said, I will have
Speaker 3: but one mistress here and no master. She had fought
Speaker 3: for that throne, she had seen her mother's example. You
Speaker 3: can't blame her for just not going there, really.
Speaker 2: And I also don't blame her. Childbirth was a very
Speaker 2: scary prospect at that time. Even the thought of an
Speaker 2: accident or even a pregnancy in marriage, would you're still
Speaker 2: a risk?
Speaker 3: Oh my goodness. I mean I would not have wanted
Speaker 3: to have gone there myself. It must have been terrifying.
Speaker 3: And there's no wonder there were all these weird and
Speaker 3: wonderful rituals around her, all these superstitious kind of practices,
Speaker 3: because people were just clutching at straws. What's going to
Speaker 3: help me, you know when it comes to giving birth,
Speaker 3: And Elizabeth was surrounded by these fairly negative examples. You know,
Speaker 3: she would have learned about her mother's miscarriages for a start,
Speaker 3: and then Jane Seymour, she died shortly after giving birth
Speaker 3: to Elizabeth's baby brother. Her sister Mary had the phantom pregnancies,
Speaker 3: and then you know, the list goes on and on.
Speaker 3: There were many ill fated pregnancies and births in Elizabeth's life,
Speaker 3: So I think genuinely she was terrified at the prospect
Speaker 3: of giving birth, and she once became quite hysterical when
Speaker 3: pushed on the matter of her marriage. So it ran deep,
Speaker 3: it was more than just politics. Her decision not to marry.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, you mentioned Elizabeth's love of fashion coming from Anne.
Speaker 2: How else do you think Anne in ruined Elizabeth from
Speaker 2: beyond the grave.
Speaker 3: So I think one of the biggest ways was in religion.
Speaker 3: So Anne was, as I mentioned, a genuine reformer. This
Speaker 3: is a woman who took risks for her faith. She
Speaker 3: was secretly importing band religious texts before she became queen,
Speaker 3: and she knew that she could get arrested for heresy.
Speaker 3: But she really believed that the church needed to be reformed. Now,
Speaker 3: she wasn't what we would call a Protestant, or at
Speaker 3: least not then, because she wanted reform from within. So
Speaker 3: it wasn't that she wanted to end the Catholic Church.
Speaker 3: But these reformist ideas would later become Protestantism, and certainly
Speaker 3: that's the religion that was made official by her daughter, Elizabeth.
Speaker 3: So I think you can trace the line through of
Speaker 3: Anne's religious influence on Elizabeth all the way almost from birth.
Speaker 3: So Anne appointed her chaplain Matthew Park to visit Elizabeth
Speaker 3: as an infant and preach to her, preach sermons to
Speaker 3: this tiny princess and Elizabeth made Parker her first Archbishop
Speaker 3: of Canterbury. So I think that just goes to show
Speaker 3: the influence that Anne had.
Speaker 2: Elizabeth, I think is rightfully celebrated as one of the
Speaker 2: most famous and celebrated, you know, queens of England. But
Speaker 2: what would you say her weakness as were I feel
Speaker 2: like this has become quite a job interview.
Speaker 3: I know, let's think of a weakness that can be
Speaker 3: turned into a strength. You know, Oh, I'm a perfectionist
Speaker 3: to that thing. I think she probably was. She did
Speaker 3: have incredible strengths and I always vote for Elizabeth as
Speaker 3: our greatest ever monic in British history. But I think,
Speaker 3: you know, it's hard to call it a weakness. But
Speaker 3: perhaps there was a certain degree of hesitation procrastination sometimes
Speaker 3: in Elizabeth. She was quite fearful about making decisions sometimes,
Speaker 3: but quite often that was the right thing to do.
Speaker 3: She didn't like to be pushed into decision making, and
Speaker 3: often things became clearer while she waited. And what she
Speaker 3: did very cleverly, you see, I'm turning into a positive here.
Speaker 3: But what she did very cleverly was to play her
Speaker 3: male courtiers at their own game and say, look, you know,
Speaker 3: I'm just a woman. I can't make a decision. You're
Speaker 3: going to have to wait, and that really brought her time.
Speaker 3: I think she wasn't particularly nice to her ladies, some
Speaker 3: of her ladies, and I think that's another way in
Speaker 3: which she took after her mother, because Anne Boleyn had
Speaker 3: been quite cruel to some of her ladies and in
Speaker 3: particular to her stepdaughter, the Princess Mary. And Elizabeth could
Speaker 3: be quite vicious towards her ladies. You sense a bitterness
Speaker 3: creeping in as her reign goes on and Elizabeth has
Speaker 3: sacrificed her personal desires for her country, and when she
Speaker 3: sees her lady is not doing the same, I think
Speaker 3: she does get quite jealous, particularly when they start to
Speaker 3: go after Elizabeth's own favorites, like Robert Dudley or the
Speaker 3: Earl of Essex.
Speaker 4: Then she really doesn't like that.
Speaker 3: And there's one occasion when Elizabeth actually stabs one of
Speaker 3: her ladies in the back of the hand with a
Speaker 3: fork because she hasn't quite got it right when serving
Speaker 3: Elizabeth at one of her meals. And I think Elizabeth
Speaker 3: was in such a fury, so she could be Yeah,
Speaker 3: she could be very, very vicious, just like Anne.
Speaker 2: You know, I always find it a little strange because
Speaker 2: these are such powerful women, Elizabeth in particular. Obviously, people
Speaker 2: sometimes I just think throw the word feminist, which always
Speaker 2: struck me as a little anachronistic.
Speaker 3: What do you think it's so anachronistic. And Elizabeth herself,
Speaker 3: even if the term had been around and she'd understood it,
Speaker 3: she would never have recognized herself as a feminist because
Speaker 3: actually she and I think to a lesser extent, Anne
Speaker 3: saw herself as an.
Speaker 4: Exception to the rule.
Speaker 3: It wasn't that she was championing equal rights for women.
Speaker 3: She believed, you know, that women should have that place
Speaker 3: of you know, inferiority in society. But she thought that
Speaker 3: she was the exception that proved the rule. But when
Speaker 3: you look at her speeches, she's almost poking fun at
Speaker 3: her sex and saying, you know, well, don't compliment me
Speaker 3: on my ability to speak many languages.
Speaker 4: You can't, you know, it's no wonder that a woman
Speaker 4: can talk so much.
Speaker 3: And she's always kind of coming out with things like
Speaker 3: this that actually a slightly critical or very critical of
Speaker 3: the female sex. But she has great confidence in herself,
Speaker 3: and I think the same was true of Anne. You
Speaker 3: can't really say that either woman was really trying to
Speaker 3: change women's lot in society. Probably when we're talking of feminism,
Speaker 3: somebody who deserves that title more is the fourteenth century
Speaker 3: writer Christine de Pisa, and Anne Bolynn was introduced to
Speaker 3: Christine's works while she was in France, and Christine is
Speaker 3: much more about Hey, you know, women are as intelligent
Speaker 3: as men, if not more so. They deserve equality in society.
Speaker 3: Neither Anne nor Elizabeth were really saying that.
Speaker 2: I don't think, you know, Elizabeth is one of those
Speaker 2: historical figures. I feel like in the United States, it's
Speaker 2: like Abraham Lincoln, the figure that's written about constantly. Was
Speaker 2: there a new story or aspect of Elizabeth's personality that
Speaker 2: you think people haven't talked enough about.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think just her whole relationship with her
Speaker 3: mother has not been explored enough until now, and I'm
Speaker 3: pleased it hadn't because it gave me the chance to
Speaker 3: do so. But I think you do see a more
Speaker 3: tender side to Elizabeth and a more vulnerable side as
Speaker 3: well when you look at her relationship with her mother.
Speaker 3: On the tender side, she surrounds herself from mementos of
Speaker 3: her late mother quite discreet ones because she knows Anne
Speaker 3: is still controversial. And probably the most discreet memento is
Speaker 3: that famous Locket ring. It's known as the Checkers ring
Speaker 3: because it's named after our Prime Minister's country house, Checkers,
Speaker 3: where the ring is now housed, and it opens up
Speaker 3: to reveal a portrait of Anne Boleyn almost certainly, and
Speaker 3: the other portrait is of Elizabeth. But when it's closed,
Speaker 3: it just looks like a ring with Elizabeth's initials on it.
Speaker 3: So that was quite a private memento. But also there
Speaker 3: is the vulnerability, and I think Elizabeth, as well as
Speaker 3: suffering from a terror of childbirth of marriage, she was
Speaker 3: also because of that childhood trauma of losing her mother.
Speaker 3: She was prone to fainting fits, and she had lots
Speaker 3: of stomach complaints, and she was often gripped by an
Speaker 3: inexplicable dress, and I think her childhood experiences had a
Speaker 3: lot to do with that, and also the fact that
Speaker 3: she tended to cling very tightly to those around her,
Speaker 3: and in particular the women at court. If they got
Speaker 3: close to her, they were almost like replacement mother figures.
Speaker 3: And I think it's thanks to losing Anne at such
Speaker 3: a young and quite vulnerable age. Really, you can see
Speaker 3: Elizabeth just being quite intense with her relationships. And I'm
Speaker 3: thinking of the likes of Blanche Parry, her childhood nurse,
Speaker 3: and Katasky, her governess. They served Elizabeth for the rest
Speaker 3: of their lives, and Elizabeth kept them so close and
Speaker 3: was devastated when they died.
Speaker 2: Because obviously she would have had a very tense relationship
Speaker 2: with her order half sister Mary as well, even though
Speaker 2: she did and obviously in the end give her the
Speaker 2: next in line to the throne, annoying her, But what
Speaker 2: was that relationship like. Obviously, because Anne had been so
Speaker 2: to the young Mary.
Speaker 3: Exactly, so Mary had every reason to despise Elizabeth. And
Speaker 3: I think it's actually to Mary's credit that she felt
Speaker 3: sorry for Elizabeth when Anne had been executed and Henry
Speaker 3: didn't want to know Elizabeth. Mary is actually speaking up
Speaker 3: for her younger sister, trying to get her father to
Speaker 3: look kindly on Elizabeth. And actually it's not a one
Speaker 3: dimensional relationship. You might think these two sisters are going
Speaker 3: to hate each other from the start, they're the daughters
Speaker 3: of rival mothers, but they don't. And this affection grows
Speaker 3: up between them. Of course, Mary is much older, so
Speaker 3: again she's almost like a maternal figure to her little
Speaker 3: sister when Elizabeth is growing up. But what sets them
Speaker 3: on a collision course is religion, because of course Mary
Speaker 3: is very definitely Catholic and Elizabeth is Protestant. And when
Speaker 3: Mary's queen, Elizabeth increasingly is seen as a threat, a
Speaker 3: rival to the throne. And that's when it goes horribly wrong.
Speaker 3: And that's when Elizabeth has a very disturbing echo of
Speaker 3: her mother's fate, when she finds herself a prisoner in
Speaker 3: the Tower of London under suspicion of rebelling against her
Speaker 3: sister Mary.
Speaker 4: And I was going to say, I love the fact.
Speaker 3: That's perhaps the wrong phrase, but that you know, it's
Speaker 3: a bit of psychological torture. Mary and her counsel keep
Speaker 3: Elizabeth in the tower until the nineteenth of May fifteen
Speaker 3: fifty four, so the nineteenth of May being the anniversary
Speaker 3: of Anne's execution. They just want to ramp up the
Speaker 3: terror a bit and make Elizabeth think you're going to
Speaker 3: go the same way as your mother.
Speaker 2: Yes, oh my god, I would have been I would
Speaker 2: have had a heart attack it's like, you don't even
Speaker 2: need to execute her.
Speaker 4: She's yeah, She's just there.
Speaker 3: And Elizabeth, many years later, recalls that, and she recalls
Speaker 3: her terror still and said that she thought about asking
Speaker 3: Mary for the sword in the same way as her
Speaker 3: mother had. So it was going through Elizabeth's mind over
Speaker 3: and over. I'm going to be executed just like my mother.
Speaker 3: She's kept in the same apartments that Anne Boleyn had
Speaker 3: spent her final days. Could it have been more terrifying
Speaker 3: for her? It's just extraordinary.
Speaker 2: And from Mary's perspective, I mean, people hate the other
Speaker 2: woman who split up your parents marriage today, it must
Speaker 2: have been horrific for young Mary growing up seeing a
Speaker 2: ter I mean she must have hated Anne Boleyn.
Speaker 3: Oh, she despised Anne Berlin absolutely and she You're absolutely right.
Speaker 3: She had good reason to. And Anne was pretty despicable
Speaker 3: towards Mary. I think because Anne felt insecure and she
Speaker 3: felt Mary was a bit of a threat. She knew
Speaker 3: that people looked to Mary as the rightful heir to
Speaker 3: the throne and to her mother, Catherine is the true queen.
Speaker 3: So that had a lot to do with Anne's treatment
Speaker 3: of Mary. And yeah, Mary would never well she eventually
Speaker 3: had to recognize her father's marriage and her own status
Speaker 3: as illegitimate.
Speaker 4: But yeah, she put up a good fight to avoid that.
Speaker 2: I want to shift gears slightly. You've written this brilliant
Speaker 2: book that I absolutely love that I consult constantly called
Speaker 2: Crown Incepter, which basically synthesizes. For those who haven't read it,
Speaker 2: you should seek it out wherever you can find it.
Speaker 2: The history of every British monarch, from William the Conqueror
Speaker 2: to Elizabeth. The fact that you fit it all in
Speaker 2: and made it a compelling page turner really is just extraordinary.
Speaker 2: But I want to ask, out of all of the monarchs,
Speaker 2: who do you think is the most underrated?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 3: That is a good question, And do you know what,
Speaker 3: I'm so pleased I wrote that book because I am
Speaker 3: mainly at tuwed a historian. I have written about other periods,
Speaker 3: but that really introduced me to new characters and new periods.
Speaker 3: Underrated I would say, I mean one of those that
Speaker 3: I've overlooked a lot is Henry the First. I think
Speaker 3: out of say anything about Henry the First, but he
Speaker 3: was the youngest son of William the Conqueror. He was
Speaker 3: really the father of modern government. He introduced a lot
Speaker 3: of the institutions and the systems of modern government. He
Speaker 3: has the dubious claim of fathering more illegitimate children.
Speaker 4: Than any other monarch. So there you go. So, Henry
Speaker 4: the verse is one.
Speaker 3: But I would say probably my top underrated bonic is
Speaker 3: James the Second. Now he was the one. He was
Speaker 3: the brother of Charles the Second. He succeeded him, and
Speaker 3: he only reigned for a very short time. And then
Speaker 3: the so called Glorious Revolution was when basically Parliament invited
Speaker 3: somebody else to take the throne because they couldn't stand James.
Speaker 3: And ever since he's been portrayed as this disastrous, tyrannical
Speaker 3: monarch who was very intolerant, who was going to insist
Speaker 3: that everybody be a Catholic like him.
Speaker 4: It was so far from the truth.
Speaker 3: Really, it was a tiny minority in Parliament who didn't
Speaker 3: like having a Catholic monarch wanted to get rid of him.
Speaker 3: But otherwise James was very popular and he was also
Speaker 3: very tolerant. He might have been a Catholic, but he
Speaker 3: believed in freedom of worship for all. Now I fell
Speaker 3: into the trap of believing that he was a bad thing,
Speaker 3: and jolly good that we got rid of him.
Speaker 4: But now I've researched him in more depth.
Speaker 3: I think poor old James actually, and no wonder the
Speaker 3: Jacobites kept trying to bring back James and his descendants.
Speaker 4: I think I'd have been one of them. Yeah.
Speaker 2: My understanding is that they got upset because he married
Speaker 2: a Catholic woman too, So yeah, we can tolerate one.
Speaker 2: But if you're having Catholic babies exactly disaster.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then she has a son and it's like,
Speaker 3: oh no, we've got a long line of Catholics, let's
Speaker 3: get rid.
Speaker 2: It's just brilliant how well you're able to cover so
Speaker 2: much history and for noble blood for podcast listeners, and
Speaker 2: do correct me if I'm wrong. Henry the First was
Speaker 2: the one who lost his son in the way Ship disaster.
Speaker 4: Correct.
Speaker 2: Correct, So we've covered that on the podcast, So for
Speaker 2: listeners who want to put that in contact, sometimes you
Speaker 2: get all the Henry is mixed up in your head.
Speaker 4: Oh, it's so easily done.
Speaker 3: There are quite that The earlier Henry's I'm a bit
Speaker 3: shaky honor or was before Crown and CEP. When we
Speaker 3: get to Henry the Seventh I'm okay.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: You have a position as one of the joint Chief
Speaker 2: curators of historic Royal Palaces.
Speaker 4: What does that entail? So I mean this is a
Speaker 4: dream job really.
Speaker 3: I can't pretend otherwise, because basically the curators are the
Speaker 3: historians for the palaces, and that we look after six palaces,
Speaker 3: including the Tower of London and Hampton Court and Kensington Palace,
Speaker 3: so these quite iconic London palaces. As chief curators, so
Speaker 3: Lucy Worseley and we manage the team of curators and
Speaker 3: our role really is to research the history of the palaces,
Speaker 3: the people within them, and to communicate that history as
Speaker 3: well through doing television work or writing content for our website.
Speaker 3: Increasingly we're doing things like podcasts that kind of thing.
Speaker 3: So we get to research and talk about history all
Speaker 3: day long. So it doesn't get much better than that,
Speaker 3: really in my opinion.
Speaker 2: And I want to let you go shortly because I
Speaker 2: know it's very late in England. But because you've researched
Speaker 2: so much of the history of the English monarchy, I'm
Speaker 2: curious what would you say today would make a good monarch,
Speaker 2: because I think the role of a good monarch has
Speaker 2: shifted over English history, but I would love to know
Speaker 2: your take on that and what you think would make
Speaker 2: and continues to make a good monarch.
Speaker 3: Well, this is going to sound like I asked you
Speaker 3: to ask me this question because I've just finished this
Speaker 3: theater tour in England called How to Be a Good Monarch.
Speaker 3: That was the whole show. It was a show to
Speaker 3: coincide with the coronation, and basically it was me sharing
Speaker 3: some slightly humorous top tips for current and future monarchs.
Speaker 3: And I would say there are a number of strategies
Speaker 3: for success, like you need to put on a good show,
Speaker 3: you need to be good at managing your pr But
Speaker 3: I would say, and this is something that our late
Speaker 3: queen embodied very much, you can forgive a lot if
Speaker 3: a monarch does his.
Speaker 4: Or her duty.
Speaker 3: So if you prove to be very hard working to
Speaker 3: uphold all of your duties, don't overstep the mark in
Speaker 3: any way.
Speaker 4: Just work hard.
Speaker 3: And that's something absolutely Elizabeth I did. And so I
Speaker 3: would say duty comes before everything. You can make mistakes,
Speaker 3: you might not be all that popular, but if you
Speaker 3: do your duty, people respect you for it and you
Speaker 3: tend to find you know, the monarchy remains pretty stable
Speaker 3: if you've got a dutiful monarch on the throne.
Speaker 2: Well, that's wonderful. Tracy Borman, thank you so much for
Speaker 2: joining us listeners. You should pick up a copy of
Speaker 2: her book, Anne Boleyn and Elizabeth, the first available now.
Speaker 2: Truly one of my favorite historians writing today. I can't
Speaker 2: think of anyone who communicates history so conversationally and accessibly,
Speaker 2: especially to lay people without multiple graduate degrees.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much, it's been a pleasure. Thank you.
Speaker 1: Noble Blood is a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and
Speaker 1: Mild from Aaron Manke. Noble Blood is created and hosted
Speaker 1: by me Dana Schwartz, with additional writing and researching by
Speaker 1: Hannah Johnston, Hannah Zuick, Mira Hayward, Courtney Sender, and Lori Goodman.
Speaker 1: The show is edited and produced by Noemi Griffin and
Speaker 1: rima il Kahli, with supervising producer Josh Thain and executive
Speaker 1: producers Aaron Manke, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. For more
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