1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Manky. Listener discretion advised. 3 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 2: Hello. I am so delighted to be joined today by 4 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 2: the brilliant historian and author Tracy Borman. She's written so 5 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 2: many both novels and brilliant works of history, including Elizabeth's Women, 6 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:26,639 Speaker 2: which I would say is like the seminal work on 7 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 2: the Court of Elizabeth I realizing now that might be 8 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 2: incorrect word choice, but has written brilliantly all about the tutors, 9 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 2: and her latest book is Anne Boleyn and Elizabeth, the first, 10 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:43,159 Speaker 2: I believe, the first, if I'm correct, dual biography of 11 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 2: the two women. 12 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:47,840 Speaker 3: Yes, which is extraordinary because they're two of the best 13 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 3: known women in history, and yet their stories have never 14 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 3: been told together. And I have wanted to ever since 15 00:00:55,960 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 3: writing Elizabeth's Women, actually because Anne Bolyn could only have 16 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 3: a chapter of that book, there were fifty other women 17 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 3: who I wrote about, and I always wanted to go 18 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 3: back because I found out enough to really intrigue me 19 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 3: and think, you know what, there's more of a story here. 20 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 3: So it's been an absolute joy, just very forensically looking 21 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 3: at their dual history. 22 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 2: I would love to get started with Anne Bolin, who 23 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:25,680 Speaker 2: is one of the most popular figures in the popular 24 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 2: imagination of the Tudor court. I think for good reason. 25 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 2: Why do you think she is such an intriguing figure 26 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:33,680 Speaker 2: for so many years? 27 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, and wouldn't Henry the eighth have hated that that 28 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 3: we're still talking about her. 29 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 4: More than the other five wives. 30 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 3: I think a lot has to do with the fact 31 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 3: that Anne seems to us actually strikingly modern. She was 32 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 3: a woman who wasn't content just to conform to the 33 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 3: stereotype of a Tudor woman, who was very much a 34 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 3: second class citizen, submissive to the men in her family. 35 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 4: Whereas Anne arrives like a rocket on. 36 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 3: The English scene from France, and she's full of ideas 37 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 3: about female power and she wants to put them into effect. 38 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 3: So and I love the fact, as I think many 39 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 3: people do that you know, she stood up to Henry 40 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 3: the eighth and she gave as good as she got, 41 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 3: but ultimately it was it was sort of her undoing 42 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 3: that and of course her failure, as Henry saw it, 43 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 3: to give him a son. But of course, as well 44 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:33,679 Speaker 3: as being modern, is also incredibly dramatic and ultimately tragic, 45 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 3: and I think that that holds a kind of timeless appeal. 46 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 2: I've seen people, historians sort of over the centuries, frame 47 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 2: her as a Protestant martyr, or a complete victim, or 48 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:50,679 Speaker 2: a schemer, you know, with some nefarious aims. How would 49 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:51,799 Speaker 2: do you characterize her? 50 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 3: Probably a combination of those things. I'm not one hundred 51 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 3: percent convinced that she was gunning for the throne from 52 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 3: the start, and that's why she held Henry at bay. 53 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 3: I think she probably wasn't at all sure about what 54 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:11,359 Speaker 3: she was getting into. I think what she was sure 55 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 3: about was not just wanting to be a mistress, because 56 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 3: she'd seen how quickly Henry discarded those. Her own sister 57 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 3: Mary had been one of them, so she was holding 58 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 3: out for something more. But I don't really buy into 59 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 3: the idea that she was scheming from the start to 60 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 3: kind of ensnare Henry so that he would make her 61 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 3: his queen. I think perhaps that idea was more to 62 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 3: do with her family and her ambitious father and brother. 63 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 3: But for Anne, I think she's more of an enigma, 64 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 3: and that's only increased by the fact that we have 65 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 3: all of Henry's love letters to her. But none of 66 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 3: Anne's replies to him, So what was Anne feeling? I think, 67 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 3: whether you know, you do believe that she was scheming 68 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 3: for the throne. She was a very skilled political operator. 69 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 3: She was, I believe, a genuine religious reformer. She had 70 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 3: ideas that she really wanted to put into effect on 71 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 3: social reform as well as religious reform. So she was 72 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 3: so far ahead of her time, and I think she's 73 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 3: really to be admired for that. 74 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:23,799 Speaker 2: How much agency do you ascribe to Anne as opposed 75 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,040 Speaker 2: to the powerful men in her life, her father, brother, uncle. 76 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 3: I think she had an unusual degree of agency, and 77 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 3: I think a comparison would be useful here with another 78 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 3: of the Six wives, Katherine Howard, who was also, like Anne, 79 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 3: accused and condemned for adultery, and in Catherine's case, I 80 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,720 Speaker 3: think she was guilty. But then I think we've reappraised 81 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 3: Catherine in recent years rightly so, because how much agency 82 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:54,159 Speaker 3: did she have in any of those relationships with the 83 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 3: men in her life? Her music tutor, She was just 84 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 3: thirteen when some kind of relationship happened there, So I 85 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 3: think Catherine didn't have a great deal of power over 86 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 3: her own destiny. But I think Anne much more so. 87 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:11,160 Speaker 3: From her early years she was described as being very 88 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 3: toward or very clever and opinionated, and yeah, she had 89 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:22,039 Speaker 3: big ideas and the vision to carry them through. And 90 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 3: she made Henry the eighth sit up and listen, and 91 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 3: you know she can do that, then she's got a 92 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 3: lot of agency. 93 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 2: I think, do you believe then that she was sort 94 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 2: of innocent of the adultery charges presented against her? 95 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 4: One hundred percent? 96 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 3: I think if you look at the various charges, Anne 97 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 3: wasn't even in the same place as her accused lovers 98 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 3: on nearly all of them, and it just doesn't fit 99 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 3: with what we know of Anne Bolyn. Here is not 100 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:53,919 Speaker 3: a woman who is lacking in self control. She's held 101 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 3: Henry at bay for seven years and it just doesn't 102 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 3: add up to me. I think her only, if you 103 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 3: can call it, that, is not giving Henry a son. 104 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,840 Speaker 3: If she had, there's no way he'd have executed her, 105 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 3: or had the marriage and olds, she would have been 106 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:12,279 Speaker 3: protected for life. 107 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 2: It's one of those things where history could have veered 108 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:20,679 Speaker 2: so so much based on just that one little accent 109 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 2: of genetics. 110 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,040 Speaker 3: It could and of course the irony is, as we've 111 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 3: been discussing, she has all of this sort of agency, 112 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 3: and she's got this great brain, but ultimately she's judged 113 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 3: by her body and her body's failure to produce that 114 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 3: male air, and really, in Henry's eyes, nothing else matters. 115 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 2: Well, speaking of airs, the one child she does provide 116 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,239 Speaker 2: is Elizabeth, who, of course Henry could have had no knowledge, 117 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 2: would have reigned in one of the most brilliant periods 118 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 2: for English history. What was your thought process in doing 119 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 2: this dual biography when Elizabeth never met her mother? 120 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean Elizabeth was only in Anne's life 121 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 3: all the other way around, actually for two years and 122 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 3: eight months, so it was a very brief relationship. And 123 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 3: actually at the age of three months only, Elizabeth was 124 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 3: removed from Anne and, according to royal traditions, set up 125 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 3: in her own household. And even though Anne visited when 126 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 3: she could, those occasions were rare because the pressure was 127 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 3: on her to of course have a son, so she 128 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 3: was kept at court a lot of the time, but 129 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 3: it wasn't a case of out of sight, out of mind, 130 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 3: and sent regular gifts to Elizabeth. I think she inspired 131 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 3: Elizabeth's later love of fashion because she was always sending 132 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 3: these gorgeous made to measure dresses and velvet caps. But 133 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 3: the influence of Anne on Elizabeth was much more profound 134 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 3: than that. And I think Elizabeth was every bit, if 135 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 3: not more so, as intelligent as her mother. She grew 136 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 3: up curious about her, clearly, and she grew up to 137 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 3: be fascinated by Anne Berlin. And the more she found out, 138 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 3: I think the more Elizabeth got a sense that Anne 139 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 3: had been ill served by her father's justice, if you 140 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 3: can even call it that. I love that quote by 141 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 3: Anne on the scaffold when she said, you know, I 142 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 3: require any person, if they should meddle in my cause, 143 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 3: that they shall judge the best or words to that effect. 144 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 3: And I think really Elizabeth spent her life meddling in 145 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 3: her mother's cause, and she did judge the best. She 146 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 3: came to the right conclusion that her mother had been terribly, 147 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 3: terribly wronged, and that was a wrong that Elizabeth wanted 148 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 3: to put right. So she was her mother's daughter through 149 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:48,079 Speaker 3: and through. 150 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 2: One thing that you can connect the lines between Elizabeth 151 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 2: and her mother are the ability that Elizabeth had throughout 152 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 2: her life, even though she famously never married, that you 153 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:03,439 Speaker 2: can continue to entertain suitors to her advantage. 154 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:03,959 Speaker 4: She did. 155 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 2: Do you draw that line from her to her mother. 156 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 3: I do absolutely, and that's something I really explore in 157 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 3: the book, in that both mother and daughter played the 158 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:16,439 Speaker 3: game of courtly love, and they were both great flirts. Actually, 159 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 3: they loved mail company, and they love to keep themselves 160 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 3: just out of reach. But Elizabeth had learned from her 161 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 3: mother's example, and she'd learned that she needed to keep 162 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 3: the boundaries very strict, indeed, and allow. 163 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 4: No room for doubt. 164 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 3: There might be gossip, but it had to be unfounded gossip. 165 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 3: So Elizabeth was very strict in upholding the etiquette and 166 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 3: the morality of her court. It's no accident that Elizabeth's 167 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 3: court was described as being at once both gay, decent, 168 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 3: and superb. And that word decent was quite deliberate. 169 00:09:57,400 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 4: You know. 170 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 3: She might be this great flirt like her, but she 171 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 3: knew very well what had happened to her mother, and 172 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:08,559 Speaker 3: she was going to draw those boundaries very very clearly. 173 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:12,679 Speaker 3: So I do believe Elizabeth lived and died the Virgin Queen. 174 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 2: As you know, several historians I think also like to 175 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 2: speculate about her relationship with her favorite Lord Darnley now 176 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 2: Flord to Jesus Dudley, pardon me, haven't had my coffee 177 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:29,959 Speaker 2: an now, I know, but I think I'm with you 178 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 2: that it would be too much of a risk for 179 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 2: too high a position. 180 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 3: And I think a really telling piece of evidence came 181 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 3: in fifteen sixty two. So Elizabeth had been queen for 182 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 3: four years when she almost died. She contracted smallpox, one 183 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 3: of the most dangerous diseases of the age. And she 184 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 3: was at Hampton Court, where I work. This is not 185 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:52,319 Speaker 3: just so that I can name drop working Hampton called 186 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 3: this little story. 187 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 4: But she believed she. 188 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:59,959 Speaker 3: Was on her deathbed, and she summoned her confessor priest, 189 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 3: and she avowed that nothing had ever passed between her 190 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 3: and Robert Dudley. And you know, cynical listeners might say, yeah, yeah, 191 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 3: it's easy to say those things, not in this god 192 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 3: fearing age where you wouldn't tell a lie on your 193 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 3: deathbed because you would think you were going to hell 194 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 3: for eternity. 195 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 4: So you know, I do believe Elizabeth spoke the truth. 196 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 3: And also you know, as she said, I will have 197 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 3: but one mistress here and no master. She had fought 198 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 3: for that throne, she had seen her mother's example. You 199 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 3: can't blame her for just not going there, really. 200 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 2: And I also don't blame her. Childbirth was a very 201 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 2: scary prospect at that time. Even the thought of an 202 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 2: accident or even a pregnancy in marriage, would you're still 203 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 2: a risk? 204 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 3: Oh my goodness. I mean I would not have wanted 205 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 3: to have gone there myself. It must have been terrifying. 206 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 3: And there's no wonder there were all these weird and 207 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 3: wonderful rituals around her, all these superstitious kind of practices, 208 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 3: because people were just clutching at straws. What's going to 209 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:10,199 Speaker 3: help me, you know when it comes to giving birth, 210 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 3: And Elizabeth was surrounded by these fairly negative examples. You know, 211 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 3: she would have learned about her mother's miscarriages for a start, 212 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 3: and then Jane Seymour, she died shortly after giving birth 213 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 3: to Elizabeth's baby brother. Her sister Mary had the phantom pregnancies, 214 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:30,719 Speaker 3: and then you know, the list goes on and on. 215 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 3: There were many ill fated pregnancies and births in Elizabeth's life, 216 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 3: So I think genuinely she was terrified at the prospect 217 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 3: of giving birth, and she once became quite hysterical when 218 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 3: pushed on the matter of her marriage. So it ran deep, 219 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 3: it was more than just politics. Her decision not to marry. 220 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 2: Absolutely, you mentioned Elizabeth's love of fashion coming from Anne. 221 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 2: How else do you think Anne in ruined Elizabeth from 222 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:02,199 Speaker 2: beyond the grave. 223 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 3: So I think one of the biggest ways was in religion. 224 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 3: So Anne was, as I mentioned, a genuine reformer. This 225 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 3: is a woman who took risks for her faith. She 226 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 3: was secretly importing band religious texts before she became queen, 227 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 3: and she knew that she could get arrested for heresy. 228 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 3: But she really believed that the church needed to be reformed. Now, 229 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 3: she wasn't what we would call a Protestant, or at 230 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 3: least not then, because she wanted reform from within. So 231 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 3: it wasn't that she wanted to end the Catholic Church. 232 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 3: But these reformist ideas would later become Protestantism, and certainly 233 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 3: that's the religion that was made official by her daughter, Elizabeth. 234 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 3: So I think you can trace the line through of 235 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 3: Anne's religious influence on Elizabeth all the way almost from birth. 236 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 3: So Anne appointed her chaplain Matthew Park to visit Elizabeth 237 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 3: as an infant and preach to her, preach sermons to 238 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 3: this tiny princess and Elizabeth made Parker her first Archbishop 239 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 3: of Canterbury. So I think that just goes to show 240 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 3: the influence that Anne had. 241 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 2: Elizabeth, I think is rightfully celebrated as one of the 242 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 2: most famous and celebrated, you know, queens of England. But 243 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 2: what would you say her weakness as were I feel 244 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 2: like this has become quite a job interview. 245 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 3: I know, let's think of a weakness that can be 246 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 3: turned into a strength. You know, Oh, I'm a perfectionist 247 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 3: to that thing. I think she probably was. She did 248 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 3: have incredible strengths and I always vote for Elizabeth as 249 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 3: our greatest ever monic in British history. But I think, 250 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 3: you know, it's hard to call it a weakness. But 251 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 3: perhaps there was a certain degree of hesitation procrastination sometimes 252 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 3: in Elizabeth. She was quite fearful about making decisions sometimes, 253 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 3: but quite often that was the right thing to do. 254 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 3: She didn't like to be pushed into decision making, and 255 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 3: often things became clearer while she waited. And what she 256 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 3: did very cleverly, you see, I'm turning into a positive here. 257 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 3: But what she did very cleverly was to play her 258 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 3: male courtiers at their own game and say, look, you know, 259 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 3: I'm just a woman. I can't make a decision. You're 260 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 3: going to have to wait, and that really brought her time. 261 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 3: I think she wasn't particularly nice to her ladies, some 262 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 3: of her ladies, and I think that's another way in 263 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 3: which she took after her mother, because Anne Boleyn had 264 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 3: been quite cruel to some of her ladies and in 265 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 3: particular to her stepdaughter, the Princess Mary. And Elizabeth could 266 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 3: be quite vicious towards her ladies. You sense a bitterness 267 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 3: creeping in as her reign goes on and Elizabeth has 268 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 3: sacrificed her personal desires for her country, and when she 269 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 3: sees her lady is not doing the same, I think 270 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 3: she does get quite jealous, particularly when they start to 271 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 3: go after Elizabeth's own favorites, like Robert Dudley or the 272 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 3: Earl of Essex. 273 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 4: Then she really doesn't like that. 274 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 3: And there's one occasion when Elizabeth actually stabs one of 275 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 3: her ladies in the back of the hand with a 276 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 3: fork because she hasn't quite got it right when serving 277 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 3: Elizabeth at one of her meals. And I think Elizabeth 278 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 3: was in such a fury, so she could be Yeah, 279 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 3: she could be very, very vicious, just like Anne. 280 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 2: You know, I always find it a little strange because 281 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 2: these are such powerful women, Elizabeth in particular. Obviously, people 282 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 2: sometimes I just think throw the word feminist, which always 283 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 2: struck me as a little anachronistic. 284 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 3: What do you think it's so anachronistic. And Elizabeth herself, 285 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 3: even if the term had been around and she'd understood it, 286 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 3: she would never have recognized herself as a feminist because 287 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 3: actually she and I think to a lesser extent, Anne 288 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 3: saw herself as an. 289 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:04,120 Speaker 4: Exception to the rule. 290 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 3: It wasn't that she was championing equal rights for women. 291 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 3: She believed, you know, that women should have that place 292 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 3: of you know, inferiority in society. But she thought that 293 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 3: she was the exception that proved the rule. But when 294 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 3: you look at her speeches, she's almost poking fun at 295 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 3: her sex and saying, you know, well, don't compliment me 296 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 3: on my ability to speak many languages. 297 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 4: You can't, you know, it's no wonder that a woman 298 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:30,160 Speaker 4: can talk so much. 299 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 3: And she's always kind of coming out with things like 300 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 3: this that actually a slightly critical or very critical of 301 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 3: the female sex. But she has great confidence in herself, 302 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,439 Speaker 3: and I think the same was true of Anne. You 303 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:46,639 Speaker 3: can't really say that either woman was really trying to 304 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 3: change women's lot in society. Probably when we're talking of feminism, 305 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 3: somebody who deserves that title more is the fourteenth century 306 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 3: writer Christine de Pisa, and Anne Bolynn was introduced to 307 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,439 Speaker 3: Christine's works while she was in France, and Christine is 308 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 3: much more about Hey, you know, women are as intelligent 309 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 3: as men, if not more so. They deserve equality in society. 310 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 3: Neither Anne nor Elizabeth were really saying that. 311 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 2: I don't think, you know, Elizabeth is one of those 312 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 2: historical figures. I feel like in the United States, it's 313 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:27,199 Speaker 2: like Abraham Lincoln, the figure that's written about constantly. Was 314 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 2: there a new story or aspect of Elizabeth's personality that 315 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 2: you think people haven't talked enough about. 316 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,239 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think just her whole relationship with her 317 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,400 Speaker 3: mother has not been explored enough until now, and I'm 318 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 3: pleased it hadn't because it gave me the chance to 319 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 3: do so. But I think you do see a more 320 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 3: tender side to Elizabeth and a more vulnerable side as 321 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 3: well when you look at her relationship with her mother. 322 00:18:55,720 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 3: On the tender side, she surrounds herself from mementos of 323 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 3: her late mother quite discreet ones because she knows Anne 324 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 3: is still controversial. And probably the most discreet memento is 325 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 3: that famous Locket ring. It's known as the Checkers ring 326 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 3: because it's named after our Prime Minister's country house, Checkers, 327 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,200 Speaker 3: where the ring is now housed, and it opens up 328 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:24,399 Speaker 3: to reveal a portrait of Anne Boleyn almost certainly, and 329 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,640 Speaker 3: the other portrait is of Elizabeth. But when it's closed, 330 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:32,400 Speaker 3: it just looks like a ring with Elizabeth's initials on it. 331 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 3: So that was quite a private memento. But also there 332 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 3: is the vulnerability, and I think Elizabeth, as well as 333 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:45,879 Speaker 3: suffering from a terror of childbirth of marriage, she was 334 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,400 Speaker 3: also because of that childhood trauma of losing her mother. 335 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 3: She was prone to fainting fits, and she had lots 336 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 3: of stomach complaints, and she was often gripped by an 337 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 3: inexplicable dress, and I think her childhood experiences had a 338 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 3: lot to do with that, and also the fact that 339 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 3: she tended to cling very tightly to those around her, 340 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,120 Speaker 3: and in particular the women at court. If they got 341 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 3: close to her, they were almost like replacement mother figures. 342 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 3: And I think it's thanks to losing Anne at such 343 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 3: a young and quite vulnerable age. Really, you can see 344 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 3: Elizabeth just being quite intense with her relationships. And I'm 345 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,399 Speaker 3: thinking of the likes of Blanche Parry, her childhood nurse, 346 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 3: and Katasky, her governess. They served Elizabeth for the rest 347 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:41,239 Speaker 3: of their lives, and Elizabeth kept them so close and 348 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 3: was devastated when they died. 349 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 2: Because obviously she would have had a very tense relationship 350 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 2: with her order half sister Mary as well, even though 351 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,879 Speaker 2: she did and obviously in the end give her the 352 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 2: next in line to the throne, annoying her, But what 353 00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:59,719 Speaker 2: was that relationship like. Obviously, because Anne had been so 354 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:01,880 Speaker 2: to the young Mary. 355 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,639 Speaker 3: Exactly, so Mary had every reason to despise Elizabeth. And 356 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 3: I think it's actually to Mary's credit that she felt 357 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:13,159 Speaker 3: sorry for Elizabeth when Anne had been executed and Henry 358 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 3: didn't want to know Elizabeth. Mary is actually speaking up 359 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 3: for her younger sister, trying to get her father to 360 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 3: look kindly on Elizabeth. And actually it's not a one 361 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 3: dimensional relationship. You might think these two sisters are going 362 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 3: to hate each other from the start, they're the daughters 363 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 3: of rival mothers, but they don't. And this affection grows 364 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,679 Speaker 3: up between them. Of course, Mary is much older, so 365 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 3: again she's almost like a maternal figure to her little 366 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 3: sister when Elizabeth is growing up. But what sets them 367 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 3: on a collision course is religion, because of course Mary 368 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 3: is very definitely Catholic and Elizabeth is Protestant. And when 369 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 3: Mary's queen, Elizabeth increasingly is seen as a threat, a 370 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 3: rival to the throne. And that's when it goes horribly wrong. 371 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 3: And that's when Elizabeth has a very disturbing echo of 372 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,879 Speaker 3: her mother's fate, when she finds herself a prisoner in 373 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 3: the Tower of London under suspicion of rebelling against her 374 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 3: sister Mary. 375 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:16,879 Speaker 4: And I was going to say, I love the fact. 376 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 3: That's perhaps the wrong phrase, but that you know, it's 377 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 3: a bit of psychological torture. Mary and her counsel keep 378 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 3: Elizabeth in the tower until the nineteenth of May fifteen 379 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 3: fifty four, so the nineteenth of May being the anniversary 380 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 3: of Anne's execution. They just want to ramp up the 381 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 3: terror a bit and make Elizabeth think you're going to 382 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:41,440 Speaker 3: go the same way as your mother. 383 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 2: Yes, oh my god, I would have been I would 384 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:45,880 Speaker 2: have had a heart attack it's like, you don't even 385 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 2: need to execute her. 386 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 4: She's yeah, She's just there. 387 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,920 Speaker 3: And Elizabeth, many years later, recalls that, and she recalls 388 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 3: her terror still and said that she thought about asking 389 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 3: Mary for the sword in the same way as her 390 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 3: mother had. So it was going through Elizabeth's mind over 391 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,360 Speaker 3: and over. I'm going to be executed just like my mother. 392 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 3: She's kept in the same apartments that Anne Boleyn had 393 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 3: spent her final days. Could it have been more terrifying 394 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 3: for her? It's just extraordinary. 395 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:19,160 Speaker 2: And from Mary's perspective, I mean, people hate the other 396 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 2: woman who split up your parents marriage today, it must 397 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 2: have been horrific for young Mary growing up seeing a 398 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 2: ter I mean she must have hated Anne Boleyn. 399 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 3: Oh, she despised Anne Berlin absolutely and she You're absolutely right. 400 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 3: She had good reason to. And Anne was pretty despicable 401 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 3: towards Mary. I think because Anne felt insecure and she 402 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 3: felt Mary was a bit of a threat. She knew 403 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 3: that people looked to Mary as the rightful heir to 404 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 3: the throne and to her mother, Catherine is the true queen. 405 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,640 Speaker 3: So that had a lot to do with Anne's treatment 406 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:56,120 Speaker 3: of Mary. And yeah, Mary would never well she eventually 407 00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 3: had to recognize her father's marriage and her own status 408 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:02,200 Speaker 3: as illegitimate. 409 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,439 Speaker 4: But yeah, she put up a good fight to avoid that. 410 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 2: I want to shift gears slightly. You've written this brilliant 411 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,680 Speaker 2: book that I absolutely love that I consult constantly called 412 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 2: Crown Incepter, which basically synthesizes. For those who haven't read it, 413 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 2: you should seek it out wherever you can find it. 414 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 2: The history of every British monarch, from William the Conqueror 415 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 2: to Elizabeth. The fact that you fit it all in 416 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 2: and made it a compelling page turner really is just extraordinary. 417 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 2: But I want to ask, out of all of the monarchs, 418 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 2: who do you think is the most underrated? 419 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:37,959 Speaker 4: Oh? 420 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:40,919 Speaker 3: That is a good question, And do you know what, 421 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 3: I'm so pleased I wrote that book because I am 422 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 3: mainly at tuwed a historian. I have written about other periods, 423 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 3: but that really introduced me to new characters and new periods. 424 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 3: Underrated I would say, I mean one of those that 425 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 3: I've overlooked a lot is Henry the First. I think 426 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 3: out of say anything about Henry the First, but he 427 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,239 Speaker 3: was the youngest son of William the Conqueror. He was 428 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 3: really the father of modern government. He introduced a lot 429 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 3: of the institutions and the systems of modern government. He 430 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 3: has the dubious claim of fathering more illegitimate children. 431 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 4: Than any other monarch. So there you go. So, Henry 432 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:21,880 Speaker 4: the verse is one. 433 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,199 Speaker 3: But I would say probably my top underrated bonic is 434 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 3: James the Second. Now he was the one. He was 435 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 3: the brother of Charles the Second. He succeeded him, and 436 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 3: he only reigned for a very short time. And then 437 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 3: the so called Glorious Revolution was when basically Parliament invited 438 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 3: somebody else to take the throne because they couldn't stand James. 439 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 3: And ever since he's been portrayed as this disastrous, tyrannical 440 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 3: monarch who was very intolerant, who was going to insist 441 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,360 Speaker 3: that everybody be a Catholic like him. 442 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:58,159 Speaker 4: It was so far from the truth. 443 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 3: Really, it was a tiny minority in Parliament who didn't 444 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,199 Speaker 3: like having a Catholic monarch wanted to get rid of him. 445 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 3: But otherwise James was very popular and he was also 446 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 3: very tolerant. He might have been a Catholic, but he 447 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 3: believed in freedom of worship for all. Now I fell 448 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 3: into the trap of believing that he was a bad thing, 449 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 3: and jolly good that we got rid of him. 450 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 4: But now I've researched him in more depth. 451 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 3: I think poor old James actually, and no wonder the 452 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 3: Jacobites kept trying to bring back James and his descendants. 453 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,439 Speaker 4: I think I'd have been one of them. Yeah. 454 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,360 Speaker 2: My understanding is that they got upset because he married 455 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 2: a Catholic woman too, So yeah, we can tolerate one. 456 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 2: But if you're having Catholic babies exactly disaster. 457 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, and then she has a son and it's like, 458 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 3: oh no, we've got a long line of Catholics, let's 459 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 3: get rid. 460 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 2: It's just brilliant how well you're able to cover so 461 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 2: much history and for noble blood for podcast listeners, and 462 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 2: do correct me if I'm wrong. Henry the First was 463 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 2: the one who lost his son in the way Ship disaster. 464 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 4: Correct. 465 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 2: Correct, So we've covered that on the podcast, So for 466 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 2: listeners who want to put that in contact, sometimes you 467 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 2: get all the Henry is mixed up in your head. 468 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 4: Oh, it's so easily done. 469 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 3: There are quite that The earlier Henry's I'm a bit 470 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 3: shaky honor or was before Crown and CEP. When we 471 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 3: get to Henry the Seventh I'm okay. 472 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 1: You know. 473 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 2: You have a position as one of the joint Chief 474 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,399 Speaker 2: curators of historic Royal Palaces. 475 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 4: What does that entail? So I mean this is a 476 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 4: dream job really. 477 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,439 Speaker 3: I can't pretend otherwise, because basically the curators are the 478 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 3: historians for the palaces, and that we look after six palaces, 479 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 3: including the Tower of London and Hampton Court and Kensington Palace, 480 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 3: so these quite iconic London palaces. As chief curators, so 481 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,959 Speaker 3: Lucy Worseley and we manage the team of curators and 482 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 3: our role really is to research the history of the palaces, 483 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 3: the people within them, and to communicate that history as 484 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 3: well through doing television work or writing content for our website. 485 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 3: Increasingly we're doing things like podcasts that kind of thing. 486 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,400 Speaker 3: So we get to research and talk about history all 487 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 3: day long. So it doesn't get much better than that, 488 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 3: really in my opinion. 489 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,159 Speaker 2: And I want to let you go shortly because I 490 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 2: know it's very late in England. But because you've researched 491 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,160 Speaker 2: so much of the history of the English monarchy, I'm 492 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:33,120 Speaker 2: curious what would you say today would make a good monarch, 493 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 2: because I think the role of a good monarch has 494 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 2: shifted over English history, but I would love to know 495 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 2: your take on that and what you think would make 496 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 2: and continues to make a good monarch. 497 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 3: Well, this is going to sound like I asked you 498 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,239 Speaker 3: to ask me this question because I've just finished this 499 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 3: theater tour in England called How to Be a Good Monarch. 500 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 3: That was the whole show. It was a show to 501 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 3: coincide with the coronation, and basically it was me sharing 502 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 3: some slightly humorous top tips for current and future monarchs. 503 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 3: And I would say there are a number of strategies 504 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 3: for success, like you need to put on a good show, 505 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 3: you need to be good at managing your pr But 506 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 3: I would say, and this is something that our late 507 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:21,239 Speaker 3: queen embodied very much, you can forgive a lot if 508 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 3: a monarch does his. 509 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 4: Or her duty. 510 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 3: So if you prove to be very hard working to 511 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 3: uphold all of your duties, don't overstep the mark in 512 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 3: any way. 513 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 4: Just work hard. 514 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 3: And that's something absolutely Elizabeth I did. And so I 515 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 3: would say duty comes before everything. You can make mistakes, 516 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 3: you might not be all that popular, but if you 517 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 3: do your duty, people respect you for it and you 518 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 3: tend to find you know, the monarchy remains pretty stable 519 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 3: if you've got a dutiful monarch on the throne. 520 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 2: Well, that's wonderful. Tracy Borman, thank you so much for 521 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 2: joining us listeners. You should pick up a copy of 522 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 2: her book, Anne Boleyn and Elizabeth, the first available now. 523 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 2: Truly one of my favorite historians writing today. I can't 524 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 2: think of anyone who communicates history so conversationally and accessibly, 525 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 2: especially to lay people without multiple graduate degrees. 526 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 4: Thank you so much, it's been a pleasure. Thank you. 527 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: Noble Blood is a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and 528 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 1: Mild from Aaron Manke. Noble Blood is created and hosted 529 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 1: by me Dana Schwartz, with additional writing and researching by 530 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: Hannah Johnston, Hannah Zuick, Mira Hayward, Courtney Sender, and Lori Goodman. 531 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 1: The show is edited and produced by Noemi Griffin and 532 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:57,719 Speaker 1: rima il Kahli, with supervising producer Josh Thain and executive 533 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: producers Aaron Manke, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. For more 534 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 535 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.