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Speaker 1: Where Were You in ninety two is a production of

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Speaker 1: I Heart Radio Kitty Lang's Voice. I mean like you

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Speaker 1: never had a voice like that before. You needed her voice,

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Speaker 1: and you needed her partnership with that songwriter. When you

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Speaker 1: get all these things together, it's unstoppable. No one can

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Speaker 1: say now, because when humanity sees the truth, they say yes, Okay, Yes.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Where Were You in ninety two? A podcast

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Speaker 1: in which your host Jason Lafier, look back at the

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Speaker 1: major hits, one hit wonders, shocking news stories, and irresistible

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Speaker 1: scandals that shape what might be the wildest, most eclectic,

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Speaker 1: most controversial twelve months of music ever. The year of

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Speaker 1: big Butt, Anthems, Achy, Breaky Hearts and Madonna's Sucks Book.

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Speaker 1: The year that Boys, Two Men and Whitney Houston shattered

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Speaker 1: Billboard chart records, Well George Might Go YouTube, and TLC

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Speaker 1: confronted the AIDS crisis. Head on the year that introduced

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Speaker 1: us to grunge, g funk, and right Said Fret. Featuring

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Speaker 1: interviews with critics, obsessives, industry big wigs, directors, producers, and

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Speaker 1: the artists themselves, this series poses the question what was

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Speaker 1: it about that made it so groundbreaking, so riotous, so fun,

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Speaker 1: and so that shit crazy. This week a tale of

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Speaker 1: two queer anthems, both of which tackled profound yearning and

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Speaker 1: unrequited lust. One became ubiquitous while essentially hiding its homoerotic

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Speaker 1: themes and plain site. The other served as a launchpad

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Speaker 1: for a celebrated but disenchanted country singer to cross over

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Speaker 1: to pop and finally come out, blazing a trail for

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Speaker 1: countless future artists. Sophie be Hawkins dominated air waves with

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Speaker 1: her debut single, Damn I Wish I Was Your Lover,

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Speaker 1: and while it bore strong lesbian overtones that were rare

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Speaker 1: for mainstream pop at the time, they went notice to

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Speaker 1: many listeners. Meanwhile, Katie Lang's hit Constant Craving ushered her

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Speaker 1: out of Nashville and into the top forty spotlight. After

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Speaker 1: she came out that same year, some radio stations banned

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Speaker 1: her music, and picketers protested her Grammy nominations. Nevertheless, her

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Speaker 1: star quickly rose, with Vanity Fair tapping her for one

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Speaker 1: of its most memorable covers and David Bowie declaring that

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Speaker 1: she was quote fast emerging as the classiest, most stylish

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Speaker 1: performer of the nineties. In this episode, we explore how

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Speaker 1: both Hawkings and lang navigated the music industry and their

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Speaker 1: sexual orientations as they were thrust into the public eye.

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Speaker 1: It is one of the best magazine covers of all time.

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Speaker 1: It's certainly my favorite. I don't remember magazines once upon

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Speaker 1: a time, before TikTok and insta and Twitter. They were

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Speaker 1: the indicator of cool, a way to announce that someone

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Speaker 1: had truly arrived. By August of Katy Langon arrived there

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Speaker 1: the singer was and the cover of Vanity Fair were

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Speaker 1: climbing in a barber chair wearing a pinstriped suit and

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Speaker 1: a big fat tie, her hair short and her face

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Speaker 1: slathered in shaving cream as Cindy Crawford in a slinky

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Speaker 1: black one piece, took a straight razor to her neck.

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Speaker 1: The supermodel's eyes closed and her plump red lips parted

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Speaker 1: as she tilted her head toward the heavens as if

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Speaker 1: in the throes of ecstasy. Shot by her Brits, the

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Speaker 1: image was a subversive twist on a classic Norman Rockwell

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Speaker 1: Saturday Evening post scene, but more important, it was a

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Speaker 1: dismantling of gender roles, of the idea of gender itself.

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Speaker 1: It was whimsical and sensual, funny and horny, inventive and provocative,

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Speaker 1: the epitome of cool. It's difficult to articulate just how

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Speaker 1: edgy that cover was at the time, literally edgy, given

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Speaker 1: how Lang was on the razor's edge and the photo,

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Speaker 1: but also because she had reached a precarious point in

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Speaker 1: her career, having decided to come out publicly the year before,

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Speaker 1: just months after releasing her latest album on Genu. That

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Speaker 1: choice was a bold move. It was Lang walking up

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Speaker 1: to the edge of a cliff, teetering on the precipice,

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Speaker 1: not knowing if or when she might fall in. Lange

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Speaker 1: wasn't just the only openly lesbian pop singer. She was

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Speaker 1: one of the only openly queer singers period. But despite

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Speaker 1: the rampant sexism and homophobia of that era, despite the

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Speaker 1: Canadian artists refusal to adhere to gender norm's, people loved her.

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Speaker 1: Judging by the impressive record sales and accolades import and

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Speaker 1: after she came out, Lang's disclosure hardly seemed to tarnish

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Speaker 1: her career. Anchored by meticulous production and Lang's angelic vocals,

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Speaker 1: Angeneu went double platinum in the US and Canada and

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Speaker 1: Platinum in the UK. Its lead single, Constant Craving, was

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Speaker 1: her first to crack the top forty later, winning a

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Speaker 1: Grammy for Best Female Pop Vocal Performance with its videos

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Speaker 1: Snagging and MTV Video Music Award for Best Female Video.

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Speaker 1: In Lange became start with that Vanity Fair cover. She

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Speaker 1: became a sex symbol, whether she wanted it or not.

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Speaker 1: She was now associated with the lesbian cheek movement, a

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Speaker 1: loaded in controversial term even then. But she also became

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Speaker 1: an icon and a role model, proof that you could

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Speaker 1: defy the establishment and still have it embrace you. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't always this way. As a country singer, Lang was

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Speaker 1: an outsider. Though she'd won two Grammys and the adoration

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Speaker 1: of many of her musical peers and devoted fans, she

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Speaker 1: hadn't achieved the success she was seeking, or thought she

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Speaker 1: was seeking. After years spent hustling in the country scene,

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Speaker 1: she decided it was time to move on. Well. Her

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Speaker 1: newfound fame came with its own set of burdens and

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Speaker 1: pop music, Lang found a home. Lang was born in Edmonton, Alberta,

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Speaker 1: but her family moved to Consort when she was a baby.

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Speaker 1: She grew up in the Canadian prairies with her mother,

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Speaker 1: two older sisters, and an older brother. Her father left

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Speaker 1: the family when she was twelve, but she didn't get

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Speaker 1: serious about music until college, when she became infatuated with

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Speaker 1: Patsy Klein, so infatuated that she believed herself to be

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Speaker 1: the reincarnation of the country legend, and after graduating formed

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Speaker 1: a kind tribute band, the Reclines. Klein was a brash,

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Speaker 1: blunt performer who sported cowgirl outfits and boots. Lange admired

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Speaker 1: not only her singing but her whole look when she

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Speaker 1: established the Reclines. Rather than opt for a towering updu

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Speaker 1: and a pretty lady like dress, Lange took a page

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Speaker 1: from Klein's book, then cranked it up to eleven, rocking, short,

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Speaker 1: spiky hair, rustur glasses without lenses, plastic skirts with toys

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Speaker 1: dangling from them, and sawn off cowboy boots. She wore

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Speaker 1: little to no makeup and was hardly demure. Her performances

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Speaker 1: with the Reclines were histrionic and outlandish, with Lange decked

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Speaker 1: out in her dime store duds, manically running across the

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Speaker 1: stage and leaping into the air. Her sweat showering her audiences.

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Speaker 1: Her brand of country was deemed quote pal pump and

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Speaker 1: appeal to alternative crowds who favored the new wave and

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Speaker 1: rockabilly scenes. She would dial down the intensity of her

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Speaker 1: live shows in aesthetic. By the time she put out

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Speaker 1: shadow Land, her third studio album but first as a

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Speaker 1: solo artist, she enlisted producer Owen Bradley, a major force

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Speaker 1: behind the nineteen fifties and sixties Nashville country sound who

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Speaker 1: worked with the likes of Loretta Lynn, Brenda Lee, Conway Twitty,

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Speaker 1: and langs Idle Patsy Klein. The album was well received

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Speaker 1: and hit number nine on Billboard's Top Country Album Charts,

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Speaker 1: while its song I'm Down to My Last Cigarette became

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Speaker 1: Lang's first to grace the Top Country Singles chart. After

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Speaker 1: a period on Johnny Carson's Tonight Show for the fourth

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Speaker 1: time in a little more than a year and making

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Speaker 1: a fantastically bizarre cameo on Peewee's Playhouse Christmas special, Please

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Speaker 1: Google It, the singer went on to bag three Grammy nominations,

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Speaker 1: two for songs from Shadowland and one for her sterling

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Speaker 1: duet with Roy Orbison on a remake of his classic

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Speaker 1: track crying, she walked home with the last award, her

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Speaker 1: first Grammy win. She also won Best Female Country Vocalist

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Speaker 1: and Female Vocalists of the Year. The Juno Awards considered

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Speaker 1: the highest honors in Canada's music industry. But Lang's music

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Speaker 1: wasn't storming country air waves, and she didn't feel her

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Speaker 1: first three albums truly expressed her vision. She set out

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Speaker 1: to capture with her fourth Absolute Torch and Twang, reuniting

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Speaker 1: with her reclines and bringing in musicians Ben Mink and

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Speaker 1: Greg Penny to co produce with her. The album earned

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Speaker 1: her a bigger audience and another Grammy for Best Female

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Speaker 1: Country vocal Performance. Crowds flocked to her shows, raving about

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Speaker 1: a sold out performance at New York Speaking Theater during

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Speaker 1: which the audience cheered Lang into doing five encorees. One

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Speaker 1: journalist declared quote those who witnessed it were baptized. Katie

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Speaker 1: is God. But even after all the success in the

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Speaker 1: U S and Canada, Lange just wasn't getting the radio

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Speaker 1: place she needed. Furthermore, Nashville's highly influential Country Music Association

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Speaker 1: never recognized Lang with nominations for any of its general awards.

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Speaker 1: A CIMA as country music's Grammy and and Now would

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Speaker 1: have signaled that she had garnered the respect of her

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Speaker 1: country peers. Some conjecture that her kitchen and over the

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Speaker 1: top style shows and videos didn't land with country purists,

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Speaker 1: that they weren't sure if she was serious about the

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Speaker 1: genre or satirizing it as some sort of comedy routine

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Speaker 1: or performance art. SHANEA Golden perch Boker as a professor

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Speaker 1: of music studies at Temple University and the author of

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Speaker 1: the two thousand twenty two Queer Country, which examines queer

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Speaker 1: and trans performers in country and Americano music. She's taken

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Speaker 1: a deep dive into Katie Lang's journey, exploring her offbeat

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Speaker 1: approach to country and how her wild, outsized persona left

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Speaker 1: many suspicious, you know, dancing in a kind of like

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Speaker 1: um exuber in um and very gender non normative um,

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Speaker 1: almost like so earnest that it was dorky, and people

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Speaker 1: thought that she was maybe she didn't really love country music.

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Speaker 1: She was making fun of it, and so journalists from

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Speaker 1: the time would would challenge her on that, like do

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Speaker 1: you have an honest relationship to country music? They questioned

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Speaker 1: her on that, or maybe it was the fact that

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Speaker 1: she was a woman in a male dominated industry, not

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Speaker 1: to mention a strong, confident woman who looked like a

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Speaker 1: man in a male dominated industry. Whatever the reasons, Lang

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Speaker 1: hadn't elicited the sort of exposure and agilation needed to

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Speaker 1: propel her to the next level of stardom. By Lange

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Speaker 1: was exhausted trying to prove herself to Nashville. She was

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Speaker 1: already on the verge of finally throwing in her cowboy hat,

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Speaker 1: but her involvement in Peter's Meet Stinks campaign may have

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Speaker 1: been the nail in the coffin. A passionate vegetarian, Lang

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Speaker 1: endorsed the animal rights group by appearing in a video

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Speaker 1: in which she hugged a tan cow named Lulu on

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Speaker 1: a retirement ranch for aging animals. We all love animals,

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Speaker 1: but why do we call some pets and some dinner,

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Speaker 1: she asked in the ad. If you knew how meat

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Speaker 1: was made, you'd probably lose your lunch. I know, I'm

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Speaker 1: from cattle country. That's why I became a vegetarian. Meat stinks,

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Speaker 1: and not just for animals, but for human health and

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Speaker 1: the environment. After Peter invited Entertainment Tonight to the videos

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Speaker 1: filming the peg. Being that it was the first ever

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Speaker 1: vegetarian commercial, it quickly gained attraction. Most publicity it got

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Speaker 1: was negative. Lank Piste off folks back home, including the

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Speaker 1: Canadian Cattleman's Association, who railed against her in the press.

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Speaker 1: Several country radio stations in Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, Montana, Wyoming,

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Speaker 1: and her homeland of Alberta banned her music, claiming she

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Speaker 1: was hurting the livelihood of its listeners. The boycotting took

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Speaker 1: a nasty turn when the home of Katie Lange, signed

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Speaker 1: on the edge of Consort, was covered in I Love

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Speaker 1: Alberta beef stickers and spray painted over with the words

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Speaker 1: eat Beef dyke, reflecting on the meat Stinks backlash Land

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Speaker 1: later told Victorious Starr, author of the biography Katie Lange,

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Speaker 1: all you get is me quote. I think that in

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Speaker 1: some ways people were waiting for something to attack me on.

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Speaker 1: I just think God that it was something I truly

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Speaker 1: believe in. Soon after the Peter debacle, Lang decided she

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Speaker 1: was done playing the game. She was an androgynous outlaw

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Speaker 1: who believed in her art, and she had shaken the

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Speaker 1: Nashville tree as much as she could, says she in

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Speaker 1: a golden perch Bocker. She realized that she was never

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Speaker 1: going to make it after that that, you know, those

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Speaker 1: doors were closed to her. Land had crossed her threshold

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Speaker 1: of patients. It was time to walk away from country

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Speaker 1: and explore new horizons. Speculation about lang Sexual orientation had

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Speaker 1: been swirling for years, but if she had built up

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Speaker 1: a fervent lesbian fan base flirting with and teasing her audiences,

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Speaker 1: she'd never come out publicly. When journalist Connie Chung interviewed

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Speaker 1: her for her See b S show in the fall

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Speaker 1: of probing her about her gender bending appearance and asking

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Speaker 1: her about marriage, Lange suavely danced around the topic before

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Speaker 1: evading it completely with a simple quote, let's change the subject.

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Speaker 1: But the subject of queer love would be front and

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Speaker 1: center on Lang's next record. When she set out to

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Speaker 1: make her pop cross over on Genue, she was heartbroken.

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Speaker 1: She had fallen for a married woman, but her affection

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Speaker 1: was not reciprocated. She couldn't dance around that unrequited desire

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Speaker 1: dominated her thoughts. This woman had blown up her life.

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Speaker 1: She had to pick up the pieces. Lang couldn't rely

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Speaker 1: on Patsy Klein mimicry or winking stage antics to communicate

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Speaker 1: this kind of despair. She had to look inward now

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Speaker 1: that she had abandoned Nashville. She also knew her next

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Speaker 1: record was a chance to reset and experiment. If there

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Speaker 1: were ever time to clean this late it was now.

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Speaker 1: Lang again called on Ben Mink and Greg Penny to

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Speaker 1: co produce. Their influences spanned genres and decades. A Genoux

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Speaker 1: had shades of the polished production of shadow Land, but

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Speaker 1: it was more than that, evoking not only Patsy Klein,

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Speaker 1: but Torch singer Julie London, jazz, cabaret, and Moroccan, Middle

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Speaker 1: Eastern and Eastern European music. Somehow, Lang, Mink and Penny

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Speaker 1: managed to avoid and everything but the kitchen sink sound.

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Speaker 1: The word I always use when talking about Angeneus restraint,

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Speaker 1: Lang's honeyed show stopping vocals and the albums. That eclectic

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Speaker 1: mix of instruments Mandolin's clarinets, Marimba's physicade violins lent it

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Speaker 1: an elegant, worldly vibe, but the architects behind it knew

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Speaker 1: when to trimp. The fact the negative space between these

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Speaker 1: elements was as important as the music itself. Angeneu breathe

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Speaker 1: like Lang must have after exercising her demons. While making it,

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Speaker 1: MinC and Lang referred to angenous quote post nuclear cabaret,

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Speaker 1: which was essentially an amalgamation of whatever they were listening

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Speaker 1: to at the time. Mink, for example, it was in

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Speaker 1: a Klesmer band playing Eastern European music, a big part

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Speaker 1: of his heritage. Well, they were sifting through his family

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Speaker 1: photographs for inspiration. One in particular stood out to Lang.

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Speaker 1: In it Mins parents, who were Holocaust survivors, were shown

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Speaker 1: celebrating the end of World War Two, surrounded by bottles

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Speaker 1: of wine and a group of revelers. Ben Mink were

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Speaker 1: called the significance of the photo. To me, it was

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Speaker 1: a year after my parents were liberated from the camps

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Speaker 1: and they're sitting around at a table with their friends,

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Speaker 1: getting drunk and there's an accordion player, violin player. You know,

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Speaker 1: it was really inspiration because it was that kind of

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Speaker 1: Kurt Vile cabaret feeling, and you know, we we talked

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Speaker 1: about it and said, you know that that's just a

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Speaker 1: wonderful place to be and whatever happens in your life. Yes,

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Speaker 1: Andinuine it's lead single Constant Craving, we're about the pain

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Speaker 1: of unconsummated love, but the music also embodied a larger

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Speaker 1: theme of the human condition is Mink x planes. It

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Speaker 1: was about resilience and survival. So I think the album

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Speaker 1: itself had a very bittersuite quality. You know, even Constant

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Speaker 1: Craving is really about the struggle and all that. But

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Speaker 1: you know, hang in there, There's there's another side to it.

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Speaker 1: We have to keep going, you know. I saw it

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Speaker 1: in many ways as kind of a reference and a

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Speaker 1: tribute to what my personal history was. The instrumentation of music,

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Speaker 1: the sentiment, and Katie had a different take on it,

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Speaker 1: and the two attitudes blended really really beautifully, and with

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Speaker 1: a singer like that, you know, how do you lose?

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Speaker 1: She's one of the great voices of the century. Post

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Speaker 1: nuclear then was more than a dramatic term for recovering

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Speaker 1: from heartache. So post nuclear, you know, was really about

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Speaker 1: I think the idea that everyone interprets the stresses and

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Speaker 1: the pain they've had. There's a there's a moment of

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Speaker 1: celebration after that, and it's that feeling where you're still

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Speaker 1: feeling the pain and the acid and all the horrible stuff.

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Speaker 1: But you're trumpeting, you know, a forward, positive movement with Antineue.

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Speaker 1: Lang and her co producers weren't chasing trends. In fact,

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Speaker 1: Lange wanted to steer clear of what she considered a new,

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Speaker 1: overproduced sound of music in which the vocals sometimes felt

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Speaker 1: secondary to the percussion. But going against the grain was audacious,

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Speaker 1: says Mink. I knew that if it didn't work, my

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Speaker 1: career as I knew it was pretty much done, you know,

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Speaker 1: having Torch and Twang as a Grammy album just before,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think people were listening, and if it bombed,

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Speaker 1: I was gonna be singled out. Lang too felt exposed

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Speaker 1: and nervous. She was scared for the follow up. We

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Speaker 1: were you know, any album is going to be um

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Speaker 1: nerve wracking for a performer to getting you stick your

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Speaker 1: neck out. But this was such a risk, you know,

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Speaker 1: sonically it was like nothing else. We it done and

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Speaker 1: not like anything else most people have done. Lange had

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Speaker 1: been living in l a but in the fall and

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Speaker 1: winter of the crew hunkered down or rented house in

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Speaker 1: Vancouver to write and record the demos, The track that

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Speaker 1: would become the album's biggest hip and Lange's calling card,

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Speaker 1: was its first single, Constant Craving, originally titled Easter Passover

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Speaker 1: because both holidays follow in the day it was written.

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Speaker 1: The song distills the spirit of Angenoue into an exquisite

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Speaker 1: four and a half minute You'd be hard pressed to

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Speaker 1: me even five pop songs a feature an accordion, but

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Speaker 1: this one uses the instrument to remarkable haunting effect. It's

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Speaker 1: the tracks connective tissue. Because of this accordion, the world

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Speaker 1: seems to stop for me whenever the song comes on

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Speaker 1: in a car, or in the grocery store, in a

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Speaker 1: doctor's office. It feels ancient, intrinsic primal, Paired with that

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Speaker 1: guitar strumming which was just country enough to nod to

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Speaker 1: Lang's roots, and those slinky vibraphones that the conjure images

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Speaker 1: of a smokey jazz club and some film noir. It

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Speaker 1: seems to echo the sentiment of the song, Constant Craving,

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Speaker 1: like desire. It feels timeless. The Lang originally hated it.

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Speaker 1: She and Mink wrote the music first, but Lange struggled

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Speaker 1: to write the lyrics, literally banging her head against a

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Speaker 1: typewriter for a few days before finally coming up with

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Speaker 1: the words constant craving. Even then they sounded awkward. She

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Speaker 1: said that a lot of people thought she was singing

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Speaker 1: God sent gravy. As Ben Mink explains, she thought the

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Speaker 1: track sounded two poppy and commercial compared to the rest

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Speaker 1: of Enu, which was slow burning and moody. But Mink

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Speaker 1: and Penny believed in constant craving, and we're determined to

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Speaker 1: make it work. After retracking the guitars in a different

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Speaker 1: key and ditching a third verse, Langu was struggling to

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Speaker 1: write for a twinky electric guitar solo. They were able

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Speaker 1: to persuade the singer to record it. The recording process

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Speaker 1: was painful for Lang in more ways than one. Not

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Speaker 1: only did she have to resuscitate and relive her personal anguish,

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Speaker 1: but she found herself straining to hit the notes, panic

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Speaker 1: sinking when she realized they may have to scrap the

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Speaker 1: whole project, that she may have lost her greatest gift.

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Speaker 1: It turned out that she had an infected tooth pushing

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Speaker 1: on her you station tube, which affected her hearing and pitch.

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Speaker 1: Only after having a root canal could she deliver the

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Speaker 1: goods When Antinu came out in March. Initial reviews were mixed.

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Speaker 1: Ben Minks still recalls one particularly brutal one. We had

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Speaker 1: a review in People magazine. It was horrible and it

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Speaker 1: singled me out. It said, Katie, next time Ben comes

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Speaker 1: knocking on your door, bar it like, don't let him in.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you got everyone who you went

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Speaker 1: to school with reading this article and you're going, how

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Speaker 1: am I going to live this down? But you know,

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Speaker 1: it changed, It changed very quickly. There was a lot

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Speaker 1: of controversy about the record. Is it good or are terrible?

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Speaker 1: And when that happens, that's a good thing. What you

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Speaker 1: don't want is complacency. The negative reviews were quickly eclipsed

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Speaker 1: by the record sales, its lead singles, airplay, and the

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Speaker 1: accolades that followed. Constant Craving became Lange's biggest hit to date,

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Speaker 1: reaching number two on the Adult Contemporary chart and number

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Speaker 1: thirty eight on the Billboard Hot One. The album went

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Speaker 1: double platinum and in nine earned a Grammy nomination for

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Speaker 1: Album of the Year. Constant Craving also received nods for

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Speaker 1: both Song and Record of the Year, and one for

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Speaker 1: Best Female Vocal Performance. Despite that Adult Contemporary label, the

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Speaker 1: single also seemed to resonate with a younger audience. Lange

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Speaker 1: was shocked when it's video, a gorgeous black and white

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Speaker 1: recreation of the nineteen fifty three Paris premiere of the

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Speaker 1: Samuel Beckett play Waiting for Godot one Best Female Video

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Speaker 1: of the MTV Video of Music Awards. This name suggests

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Speaker 1: On Janu was about going back to basics, employing old

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Speaker 1: sounds and fresh ways to tell a familiar story Love

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Speaker 1: Can turn us all into children. Exploring another more vulnerable

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Speaker 1: side of herself on the album was a dicey enough

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Speaker 1: move for Lang. But in June of just three months

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Speaker 1: after the release of Ingenue, just as she was gaining

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Speaker 1: credibility in the pop landscape, she would take the biggest

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Speaker 1: risk of her career. She would finally discuss her sexuality publicly.

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Speaker 1: The Advocate, one of the oldest and most widely circulated

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Speaker 1: lgbt Q magazines, had been trying to book an interview

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Speaker 1: with Lang for years, going through her label Sire, which

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Speaker 1: was part of Warner Brothers, and even through her friends,

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Speaker 1: but she proved elusive. She knew speaking with the publication

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Speaker 1: and not addressing her sexuality would be disingenuous, but she

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Speaker 1: also hadn't been ready to go there when the editors

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Speaker 1: contacted Sire in the spring of and explained they wanted

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Speaker 1: Lang to be the cover story for their issue. Unvaluing

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Speaker 1: the magazine's new redesign, Her PR team seemed interested, but

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Speaker 1: then gave them the runaround. When they finally got the

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Speaker 1: call in May, Sire informed the editors they could interview

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Speaker 1: Lang in the UK, where she was about to launch

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Speaker 1: the tour for ANU. The magazine tried to secure a

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Speaker 1: female journalist for the story, thinking languould feel more comfortable

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Speaker 1: opening up, but no lesbian writers were free to fly

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Speaker 1: to Europe on such short notice. The editors finally secured

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Speaker 1: Brendan Lemon, a gay editor of The New Yorker who

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Speaker 1: would eventually become the editor in chief of Out magazine,

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Speaker 1: the advocates entertainment focused sister brand. He met Lang in London, where,

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Speaker 1: to his surprise, she came to pick him up at

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Speaker 1: his hotel. He was immediately won over by her warmth, candor,

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Speaker 1: and sense of humor. At a table in a small cafe,

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Speaker 1: they had lunch, but Lemon wasn't sure he gets to

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Speaker 1: talk to about her private life until late in the interview.

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Speaker 1: They discussed her inspiration for the album, her childhood memories,

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Speaker 1: and the Pita controversy, but then, after Lemon asked her

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Speaker 1: about making fun of speculations surrounding her sexual orientation on stage,

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Speaker 1: she finally admit that she didn't want to be out

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Speaker 1: in a major way. When Lemon asked why not, Lang replied,

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Speaker 1: because that's not the thing to me. I don't feel

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Speaker 1: political about my preference. She continued. There should be strong

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Speaker 1: examples in the subculture, and I think there should be

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Speaker 1: people fighting for our rights, but I don't feel like

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Speaker 1: it's my passion. It certainly isn't my cause. She made

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Speaker 1: it clear that she had never denied or tried to

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Speaker 1: hide her queerness. Lemon then said, I think the danger

405
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Speaker 1: for you is that there's going to be a point

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Speaker 1: at which you just don't want to hedge anymore, and

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Speaker 1: you say, let me come out and then go on

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Speaker 1: with my life as an artist, to which Lang replied, well,

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Speaker 1: I think I'm at that point. When those words appeared

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Speaker 1: in print weeks later, Lang became one of the only

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Speaker 1: openly lesbian celebrities and certainly the most famous lesbian pop singer.

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Speaker 1: Whether or not she wanted to be an icon or

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Speaker 1: role model she was now m I asked Lemon why

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Speaker 1: Katie Lange chose to come out in The Advocate and

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Speaker 1: not in a television interview like the one she'd done

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Speaker 1: with Connie Chung three years before. I think k D

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Speaker 1: felt if she came out in a in a place

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Speaker 1: like The Advocate, she would be speaking to a readership

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Speaker 1: that would understand her. I think she had been asked

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Speaker 1: about it for so long that she finally wanted to

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Speaker 1: do it and just get it behind her um. At

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Speaker 1: the same time, I think she did want to do

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Speaker 1: it in print because it would allow her to talk

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00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:44,399
Speaker 1: with more nuancing complexity about the issues of sexuality, which

425
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 1: would have been much harder for her to do on television,

426
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,919
Speaker 1: and to a certain extent, more difficult for her to

427
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 1: do in a large mainstream publication like People, because People

428
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,959
Speaker 1: would have put on its cover line, you know, Katie

429
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 1: comes out. The Advocate didn't do that, So I think

430
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,160
Speaker 1: Katie realized that she wouldn't be sensationalized if she came

431
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,920
Speaker 1: out in The Advocate, but she would feel sensationalized if

432
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 1: she came out in certainly on television and even in

433
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: somewhere like People in her Advocate interview, Lang expressed that

434
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 1: was scared her most about coming out publicly was hurting

435
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 1: her mother, but she admitted that she also worried about

436
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:29,199
Speaker 1: saying the wrong things and hurting her culture. Still, she

437
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 1: seemed to recognize that the personal is political, or at

438
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 1: least now, when she looks back, she better understands that

439
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 1: her motives extended beyond her just wanting to put the

440
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 1: rumors to rust and a recent ABC Radio National interview,

441
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,360
Speaker 1: Lang said of her coming out quote, it felt like

442
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,159
Speaker 1: it was a necessity because homophobia was rampant at that

443
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 1: time to the AIDS crisis, and I felt like a

444
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 1: really personal commitment to the importance of coming out at

445
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 1: that time and giving a voice and a recognizable image

446
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: to a call they have been demonized. At that time,

447
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:08,360
Speaker 1: Lang knew what was at stake, her relationships with their family, bandmates, fans, peers,

448
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,399
Speaker 1: the recording academy, whatever connection she still had with the

449
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 1: Nashville But she'd reached a crossroads where secrecy no longer

450
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 1: felt like an option. As Brendan Lemon explained, you know,

451
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 1: when Katie is doing this, she's taking a big risk

452
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,640
Speaker 1: with her career. She has finally you know, a hit

453
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 1: single with constant Craving off the Angineux album, and she

454
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 1: has finally getting some sales and some attention. Now, most artists,

455
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 1: that's the very moment at that time when they aren't

456
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 1: going to jeopardize that by coming out. Um, that's going

457
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 1: to be the moment where they're not going to do that.

458
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: But that was the moment when Katie did do that.

459
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 1: So I think she felt if she were going to

460
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 1: do it, it had to be done with integrity. I

461
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: always knew that for her it was the music that

462
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: that mattered the most, and that that was why she

463
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 1: was and afraid to come out and endure or to

464
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,239
Speaker 1: experience whatever was going to come out as a follow up.

465
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 1: The music was paramount. Lang still had a record and

466
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 1: tour to promote audiences, to enrapture, more songs to write.

467
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: So after her big moment, she got back to work

468
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 1: with her token sense of humor. As she teased it

469
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 1: one performance. Now you all know the rumors that have

470
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 1: been circulating in the press, pause, and I have to

471
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 1: say it's true, It's true. I am a love look

472
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 1: Lawrence Welk fan. Meanwhile, many including her producer and former

473
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 1: bandmate Ben mink. I didn't think her revelation was all

474
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 1: that shocking, but it was. Wasn't isn't really a surprise,

475
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 1: you know, at all of it. I mean, who didn't know?

476
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: You know, I remember we wanted did this. Uh it's

477
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 1: a very funny story. We did a It was a

478
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 1: private show for Warner Brothers acts and their executives somewhere

479
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 1: and Aerosmith were just doing their comeback and so we

480
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: were on this little tiny show where we'd each do

481
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 1: like four songs, and Errol Smith was there, and Katie

482
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 1: was there, and I probably a couple of But afterwards,

483
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 1: you know, um, Steve Tyler has just seen Katie performed

484
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: for the first time and he comes over to me.

485
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 1: We're staying outside of the stage and he goes, Man,

486
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 1: she can sing. He goes, you think she'd sing, Dude,

487
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 1: looks like a lady with me. But you know, it

488
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 1: was no secret thing. You saw her and you kind

489
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 1: of knew what was going on, So I guess coming

490
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 1: out it was just an official statement. Coming out officially

491
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: changed everything for Lang. She was celebrated but also scrutinized,

492
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: suddenly becoming fodder for gossip columnists and tabloids. Was she

493
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 1: dating Liza Minelli or Sandraw Bernhard Prince collaborator Wendy Melvoine,

494
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 1: or tennis player Martina Navatralova or Madonna who one set

495
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: of a Lang performance, Elvis is alive and she is

496
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 1: ever beautiful? But that was just chatter. Lang posed, was

497
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 1: Cindy Crawford on that? That maybe fair cover? And racked

498
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: up the seals and the trophies At the Grammys. After

499
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 1: winning Best Female vocal Performance, she said to reporters, what

500
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 1: could I possibly do to top this Best Male Vocalist?

501
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: Pop's most famous Andrew Gene was still self aware, still

502
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: in on the joke, as Lang recalled to The Guardian

503
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: in two thousand seventeen. The previous year, there was a

504
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: huge backlash when I did a meat Stinks campaign for Peter,

505
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 1: But by the time I came out, I think people

506
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 1: who had exhausted all their anger and hate for me.

507
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 1: When we were nominated for the Grammys, there were religious

508
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 1: groups outside picketing, but it wasn't too bad. Lang would

509
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: never have another hit like Constant Craving. She would fade

510
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 1: from the mainstream spotlighters and nineties drew to a close,

511
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 1: partly by choice. Fame was too much for her, a

512
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 1: theme she explored on jan follow up All You Can Eat.

513
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 1: But her albums continue to sell and she remained in

514
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: demand musician, recording and touring with Tony Bennett in two

515
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: thousand two and winning another Grammy for their collaborative album

516
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 1: A Wonderful World. She sang on Disney's Home and the

517
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 1: Range soundtrack. She performed at the Olympics opening ceremony in two.

518
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: Anne was inducted into the Canadian Music Hall of Fame

519
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: in two Today, lank cooks practices Buddhism, spends time with

520
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 1: her partner, and lies pretty low. As she told The

521
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 1: Guardian two thousand nineteen, I grew up with the adage

522
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 1: that there is a wealth of purpose and being mysterious,

523
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: and I feel like I haven't had the chance to

524
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 1: be mysterious. My sexuality and everything was so much out

525
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 1: in the open and has been for many years. I

526
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: feel exhausted by being exposed and it's truly not that interesting.

527
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 1: If laying recently she's taking a break from music that

528
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 1: her days of writing new material may be over. Aina

529
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 1: remains a pop culture touchdown, part of the singer songwriter canon.

530
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: Said this co producer Ben Mink, I wouldn't say go

531
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 1: so far as to say it invented UMM a genre.

532
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 1: I think that the genre was kind of there, But

533
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 1: what I think what it did was there was a

534
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 1: certain kind of coffeehouse um jazz cabaret thing that that

535
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 1: sort of fueled artists like um Norah Jones and um Feist.

536
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 1: It definitely created a certain kind of singer songwriter UM

537
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 1: folk jazz style that became acceptable. And though she was

538
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 1: a reluctant hero Land coming out, when she did change

539
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: the conversation, other celebrities would follow. Melissa Etheridge, Allen de Generes,

540
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 1: Rosie o'donald in the late will embraced the premiere and

541
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,479
Speaker 1: become a hit. Says Brendan Lemon. I think she's definitely

542
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: a trailblazer. I think even with all the queerness in

543
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: pop music before, she was still one of the very

544
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 1: first people in the media spotlight at a particular moment

545
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 1: who came out. So I think in that sense she's

546
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 1: ners significant. Next up after the break the story of

547
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 1: another pop music trailblazer, one who was ready to discuss

548
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 1: her sexuality out the gate, Sophie B. Hawkins, whose breakthrough

549
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 1: single Damn I wish I was Your Lover became an

550
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 1: inescapable anthem for the love sick and the horny, and who,

551
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 1: like Lange, was a singer songwriter who fought to maintain

552
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 1: her integrity and autonomy and an industry that didn't always

553
00:33:55,520 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 1: understand her. Sophie B. Hawkins didn't have a conventional adolescence.

554
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 1: She grew up in New York City, where her mother

555
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 1: was a fiction writer and her father was a lawyer.

556
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,320
Speaker 1: She attended the Manhattan School of Music, but left to

557
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 1: pursue drumming, moving in with a Nigerian percussionist, Babatunda Latunji,

558
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: and a group of musicians when she was fourteen. She

559
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 1: and a Latunji, who was about fifty at the time,

560
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 1: had what she calls an amazing passionate, very difficult, but

561
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 1: very strong relationship until she was twenty. She studied jazz

562
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 1: in African and Brazilian music, learning to play the vibra

563
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 1: phone and marimba's and a cassio keyboard, eventually touring as

564
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 1: a percussionist with Roxy Music's Brian Ferry before she got fired.

565
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 1: She initially aspired to be quote the greatest drummer ever.

566
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 1: She says, but soon concluded she needed another outlet to

567
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: express herself, so she took up songwriting. Hawkins recalls finishing

568
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 1: the first version of her night hit Damn I Wish

569
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 1: I was Your lover, when she was in her mid twenties.

570
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 1: She wrote it in the Upper West Side apartment she

571
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 1: grew up in and a three hundred dollar piano she

572
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 1: purchased when she decided to move beyond a career in percussion.

573
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: At that point, she was working at coach checks and

574
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,320
Speaker 1: as a waitress, sub letting apartments all over Manhattan, and

575
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 1: crashing back at her parents when her leases were up.

576
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 1: She was also acting and doing performance artist spaces like

577
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 1: PSO and singing in gospel choirs in Harlem. Music was

578
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 1: her life, much like how Katie Lang kept her love

579
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 1: interest at the center of Entree was secret. Hawkins won't

580
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 1: reveal the identity of the person who inspired Damn I

581
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 1: Wish I was her lover, but play the song once

582
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:48,320
Speaker 1: and it's obvious she'd fallen hard. I give you something

583
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 1: sweet each time you come inside my jungle book? What

584
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:55,240
Speaker 1: is it just too good? She sings. Don't say you'll stay,

585
00:35:55,440 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 1: because then you'll go away. M M. When we spoke

586
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 1: about the genesis of the single. She said she knew

587
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 1: she had something almost immediately. I just knew it by

588
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 1: the chords. I knew the minute that my fingers slipped

589
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 1: and I did that chord progression, and it was you

590
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 1: know that sound of the verse, you know, the ad

591
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 1: over G. I thought, oh, this is this is beautiful,

592
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 1: this is big. I don't know how that knew that.

593
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:30,839
Speaker 1: I thought, this is the one I've been waiting for,

594
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,720
Speaker 1: and this is scary. I remember looking at the window

595
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 1: of that I said, now here comes the one you've

596
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 1: been waiting for. What are you going to do with it?

597
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 1: She worked on the track for another couple of weeks,

598
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 1: building on it that summer on her aunt's piano and

599
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 1: cape cod writing. It was an active Catharsis. It was

600
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 1: terrifying and liberating. So I was taking the risk of

601
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,720
Speaker 1: opening up my heart or pursuing a person and getting

602
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 1: involved in relationships you know in the downtown aren't seeing

603
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 1: that I knew were dangerous and explosive and creative. But

604
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:09,919
Speaker 1: I also knew I had to open up and get

605
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: to the to the goods inside of me. Hawkins confirms

606
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 1: the damn I wish I was Your Lover is about

607
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 1: longing and lust, but she hesitates to elaborate on the

608
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 1: story behind it, family alcoholism abuse. She says, it's a

609
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 1: big mix of pain and passion, a tale of breaking

610
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 1: through barriers and finding one's agency. It's core line, free

611
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,799
Speaker 1: your mind and you won't feel ashamed. May have been

612
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 1: delivered to an object of desire, but it's just as

613
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 1: much a mantra for anyone coming to terms of their identity,

614
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 1: sexual or otherwise. Hawkins had a very clear idea of

615
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 1: what she wanted for her debut album, Tongues and Tails,

616
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 1: and it hardly fit in with the music dominating air

617
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 1: waves at the time. While making the record, she says

618
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 1: she fought all the time with producer Ralph shuk It,

619
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 1: who tried to stand off the album's edges to achieve

620
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 1: more mainstream sound. Chaka had discovered her seeing the potential

621
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 1: of a tape full of demos she'd given him while

622
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 1: she was working at a coach check, and had her

623
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 1: best interest in mind, knowing what a record label would

624
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 1: want to hear. But she was adam and about keeping

625
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: her vision intact, and I thought all the time with Ralph,

626
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 1: but it was a healthy healthy fighting because he insisted

627
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 1: I'd be more pop from more pop rock or this

628
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:26,800
Speaker 1: to that, and I just insisted, no, I'm going to

629
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 1: be like Pink Floyd meets motown meets soul. That's who

630
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:34,240
Speaker 1: I am on gospel soul, Pink Floyd Motown. Well. Luckily,

631
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,800
Speaker 1: the album's other producer, Rick Chertoff, who'd produced Cindy Lauper's

632
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 1: debut album, She's So Unusual, shared her vision. He and

633
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 1: Hawkins both wanted lush, dark synthesizers that evoked Pink Floyd's

634
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 1: Wish You Were Here. He liked Hawkins backing vocals and

635
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 1: drum machines. He also brought in drummer and programmer Sandy Marindino,

636
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 1: who folded a sample of the Led Zeppelin's When the

637
00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:00,320
Speaker 1: Levee Breaks into the song. The alchemy of that killer ample,

638
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 1: those watery synths, hawkins sensual and love Lauren lyrics and

639
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,879
Speaker 1: her intoxicating gravelly vocals, which called to mind Chrissy hind

640
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 1: Stevie Nicks and Rickey Jones, resulted in a worldwide smash

641
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 1: Damn I Wish I Was Your Lover's sword to number

642
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 1: five on the Billboard Hot one charts, with Billboard calling

643
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:35,400
Speaker 1: it quote an unlikely anthem. A review from Entertainment Weekly

644
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:39,879
Speaker 1: read Hawkins says those words as insusuent lee, as if

645
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 1: she'd just broken a nail, but she still lets you

646
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 1: know they mean a hell of a lot more than that.

647
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 1: And People Magazine declared when a record opens with a

648
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,759
Speaker 1: song called Damn, I Wish I was your lover, you

649
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 1: realize immediately you're not dealing with some delicate flower. Hawkins

650
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 1: knows what she wants, and she knows how to get it. Okay,

651
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 1: So I was a kid when I first heard the song,

652
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 1: and maybe that's why it sounded like a revolution. But

653
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 1: then again, it was a revolution at least for top

654
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 1: forty radio to hear damn in a chorus, especially such

655
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: a big, assertive and sextious chorus like this one, was

656
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 1: a bit shocking. Songs with curse words, even damn, the

657
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 1: most g rated of expletives, didn't exist in pop. And

658
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:27,760
Speaker 1: Hawkins sings it again and again emphatically, the word sticks

659
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 1: out and hook shoe like a nail and a floorboard.

660
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 1: She is also, at one point so bowled over by

661
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 1: her unreciprocated affection that she resorts to the even quainter, dusty,

662
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:46,280
Speaker 1: faux curse word, shucks. It's ridiculous in a very charming

663
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 1: early nineties kind of way. As Hawkins said in an

664
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,799
Speaker 1: interview with American Songwriter, I wasn't in any relationship that

665
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 1: was as sophisticated as a song, But I have been

666
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 1: triggered by a lot of emotional events to bring the

667
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 1: song out of me. There are times when you write

668
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 1: a song and you think that it's okay and it's

669
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 1: fun to play, people like it, whatever. But then there

670
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 1: are the times when a song comes out where you

671
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 1: feel like it's almost ugly, it's almost excruciating, the uncomfortable

672
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 1: to listen to, but yet you're compelled. Those are the

673
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 1: good songs. Damn I Wish I was Your Lover is

674
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 1: one of those songs. Awkward yet undeniable, goofy yet nerve tingling,

675
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 1: sort of like the sex Hawkins is chasing after the

676
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 1: sex were all chasing after. However, even more shocking than

677
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:39,439
Speaker 1: hawkins use of Damn is the fact that the song

678
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 1: that most certainly deals with the same sex attraction at

679
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 1: least partly skirted by so many listeners, including me. Well,

680
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 1: she keeps the target of her lust and fascination ambiguous

681
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,799
Speaker 1: for most of the track, using you and your she

682
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:55,320
Speaker 1: shifts to the third person in its third verse, offering

683
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 1: the evocative lines I sat on the mountain side with

684
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 1: peace of mind. I a by the ocean, making love

685
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 1: to her with visions clear, walked for days with no

686
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 1: one near. That was some blatantly homerotic stuff and risky

687
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: especially then. And yeah, I don't recall any major backlash

688
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:16,239
Speaker 1: or wise cracks. Yeah, I was probably too young and

689
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,840
Speaker 1: like many others, distracted by the swearing and those lush

690
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 1: synthesizers to pick up on all the lyrics. But the

691
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 1: song was everywhere. You gotta remember this was when we

692
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: had only one openly queer female musician on the airwaves,

693
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 1: The newly out Katie Let Hawkins had her own coming

694
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:34,840
Speaker 1: out that year, but it went down a little differently

695
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 1: than Langs. In April of n right after Damn I

696
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 1: Wish I Was Your Lover was released, and just weeks

697
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 1: before her debut album, Tongues and Tails dropped, she described

698
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 1: herself as omnisexual and a story for The New York Times,

699
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 1: she thinks she actually coined the term, As she explained

700
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 1: during the interview, most songs that are coming out lately

701
00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:00,160
Speaker 1: say I'm a man, you're a woman. It's black and white,

702
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 1: but it's so hard to deal with life that way.

703
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 1: There are many things that humans can do to transform themselves,

704
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 1: and sex is one of the biggest things. I learned

705
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,359
Speaker 1: all the things I am by being who I wasn't

706
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,280
Speaker 1: supposed to be, playing all the roles I wasn't supposed

707
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,760
Speaker 1: to play. Before, I allow myself to be manly sexually,

708
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 1: I was embarrassed by being womanly. Now I find it

709
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 1: really fun to be everything. And it depends on who

710
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:27,799
Speaker 1: brings what out of me. I'll say it again, this

711
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 1: was some risky stuff. Hawkins may have had a hit

712
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 1: on her hands, and she'd go on to have a

713
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 1: couple of others with her second album, Whaler, but she

714
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 1: hardly had an easy ride. Her relationship with Sony, who

715
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 1: owned Columbia Records, her label at the time, was tumultuous.

716
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 1: Much like Lang, she was laser focused and unapologetic about

717
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 1: her persona and her artistry. Like Lang, she fought against

718
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 1: the establishment, but because of it, her career took a

719
00:43:56,040 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 1: beating up. Next, after the Break, we'll hear from Sophie B.

720
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 1: Hawkins herself about her battle to realize her vision, navigate

721
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 1: the music industry, and find her place in the l

722
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 1: g B t Q community. Sophie Bee Hawkins scored a

723
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 1: big hit with the Damn I Wish I Was Your Lover,

724
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 1: a song that would become a nineties radio staple and

725
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 1: queer cannon, but she fought nearly every step of the

726
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 1: way to maintain her voice and autonomy. She fought to

727
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 1: preserve her production choices on her debut album, Tongues and Tales,

728
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: resisting suggestions to adhere to traditional pop and rock formulas.

729
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 1: She argued to leave her middle initial in her name

730
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 1: the B is for Balantine, but she joked with the

731
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 1: New York Times quote the B stands for independence. She

732
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:05,399
Speaker 1: pushed to keep damn and the title of her debut

733
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:09,840
Speaker 1: album's lead single. She also urged listeners to reconsider their

734
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 1: preconceived notions of gender and sexuality, name dropping Kate Bourne's

735
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: teens seminal queer and transbook Gender Outlaw and Interviews. And finally,

736
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,279
Speaker 1: when the original video for Damn I Wish I Was

737
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 1: Your Lover was deemed too racy to air on MTV,

738
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 1: she fought to promote the single by shooting a tamer

739
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 1: and it must be noted less inspired video. I caught

740
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:32,799
Speaker 1: up with Hawkins to discuss the making of Damn I

741
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 1: Wish I Was Your Lover and the aftermath of its release.

742
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 1: So you said that the meaning of Damn I Wish

743
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 1: I Was Your Lover has changed over time. But what

744
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 1: was it about then when it came out about the

745
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 1: feelings in the moment of trying to find words to

746
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 1: describe the feelings I had for this person. Damn I

747
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 1: Wish I Was Your lover? Is true? This person you know,

748
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 1: I'd want you till the day likes. This person is

749
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 1: in a situation. They need help, They need enlightenment, they

750
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:08,399
Speaker 1: need love and warmth. They need to know that I'm

751
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:11,400
Speaker 1: here willing to go to the ends of the earth

752
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:15,759
Speaker 1: of of their inside like the inside journey with them,

753
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 1: and here I am. I'm gonna open up my heart

754
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:22,360
Speaker 1: in I'm just riffling right now. I don't know, but

755
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:25,239
Speaker 1: it was like a really wanting to communicate to this

756
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 1: person how much they got to my inside heart. Here's

757
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:34,839
Speaker 1: my story to prove it was this person a woman.

758
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 1: Even if I tell you the gender, you have to

759
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 1: remember that I'm the one who coined the word omnise sexual,

760
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 1: So the gender is not going to be so material

761
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:49,759
Speaker 1: as we think, and it really is not material. The

762
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 1: older I get, the more I realized that. I mean,

763
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 1: who knows if it was a woman or a man

764
00:46:56,120 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 1: at this time? Anyway, who knows what they thought they were.

765
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 1: I'm wondering what the reaction was around you to the

766
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 1: song from executives from you know, radio stations and your peers.

767
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 1: Did anyone push back? Were you surprised by the reactions

768
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 1: you received? Yeah? Yeah, people didn't know. Sony had a

769
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:19,360
Speaker 1: lot of people. Sony is a big word for a

770
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:22,840
Speaker 1: lot of different people. But first of all, damn wasn't acceptable.

771
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 1: They did not want me to sing damn. They didn't

772
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,719
Speaker 1: want the third verse, you know, we I'm singing about,

773
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 1: you know, making loved her on the ocean. They didn't

774
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 1: want any of that. And Sony was incredibly angry when

775
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 1: I came out and said I was omnisexual. So there

776
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 1: was some fear and everything. And maybe, you know, maybe

777
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:46,239
Speaker 1: for me, I grew up in New York City and

778
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,720
Speaker 1: my mother is a writer, and she wrote a very

779
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 1: racy book about two women, So maybe for me it

780
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:57,400
Speaker 1: wasn't such a big deal, whether it was a woman

781
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 1: or a man. But I did notice there was a

782
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 1: lot of constantination, and I think that it was something

783
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:10,799
Speaker 1: that kept people held back from really promoting me to

784
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:14,399
Speaker 1: the held most likely because that was also a common thing,

785
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 1: like why aren't they doing more for you? Why aren't

786
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 1: they putting more money into the next single? And I

787
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:23,319
Speaker 1: think there was totally a backlash in because my performances

788
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 1: were wild. I had such a lot going on on stage.

789
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:33,360
Speaker 1: It was fabulous, and I was I was pro gender Outlaw,

790
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 1: you know Kate Bournstein the book Gender Outline. I was

791
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:42,840
Speaker 1: on pop radio defending trans people and that trans is

792
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 1: completely natural and that we have to start paying attention

793
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:49,759
Speaker 1: to people who feel that they're you know, locked into

794
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:53,319
Speaker 1: the wrong gender. I was. I was out there for

795
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 1: now I might be considered normal, but this was thirty

796
00:48:56,400 --> 00:49:00,839
Speaker 1: years ago. I was there saying trans is normal, Being

797
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 1: omnisexual is completely normal. I was a pop star. I

798
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 1: was fighting on every level for every aspect of my

799
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:11,880
Speaker 1: albums and I always have and I always will. And

800
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:14,439
Speaker 1: then if someone said, you know, are you gear straight?

801
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 1: Doesn't matter, We'll put more money into you if you're straight,

802
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 1: I wouldn't even have like honored that. Nobody would have

803
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:22,799
Speaker 1: dared come up to me and said that, So you

804
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:25,320
Speaker 1: weren't asking You weren't asked to to to stay in

805
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 1: the closet. Well, not directly, but I was punished when

806
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 1: I was open. I didn't getting the funds and and

807
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 1: and the exposure. Well, they were angry at me. They

808
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 1: were angry, and they were vocally angry at me. And

809
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 1: they thought I was uncontrollable and wild and I would

810
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:45,000
Speaker 1: say anything. And you know, I probably did say some

811
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 1: stupid things. I know I did, but they weren't about me.

812
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 1: I was almost I don't know. I was in a

813
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:55,240
Speaker 1: state of rebellion because it was very constrictive. The world

814
00:49:55,320 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 1: was very constrictive, and I wanted to burst open and

815
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 1: help other people. I wanted. I saw the response of

816
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:07,719
Speaker 1: kids at my shows. I saw the response of the

817
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 1: trans community when I would start defending gender outlaw of

818
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:13,880
Speaker 1: the book, and I wanted to defend people and wanted

819
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 1: to protect the kids. I wanted to be out there

820
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 1: and say we are so much more in the majority

821
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 1: than you think. I was so excitedly loving humanity. So

822
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:28,239
Speaker 1: there was something in the ether. And you think you

823
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:31,080
Speaker 1: were part of this, So I'm wondering what do you

824
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:33,239
Speaker 1: think was going on? What do you think was in

825
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:37,520
Speaker 1: the air. Ah, Yes, there was a consciousness shift and

826
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 1: it was built really on the shoulders of all these

827
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 1: other people. And suddenly I guess what they say is

828
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 1: the hundreds of monkey Is that what it is? You

829
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:49,920
Speaker 1: get to a critical mass and things change, and what

830
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:53,319
Speaker 1: it's not without the incredible work and bravery of the

831
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 1: activists who came for you know, years before us, even

832
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 1: hundreds of years. And so I think also when people

833
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 1: were reading in books like Stone Butch Blues and we're

834
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 1: really understanding and you know what happened, how people lived,

835
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 1: I think everyone, all of us, young people, young folks,

836
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 1: we said, wow, are our predecessors have fought so hard

837
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:18,200
Speaker 1: and suffered so much? We have to just be out

838
00:51:18,239 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 1: and do this. You know. There just comes that point,

839
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:23,360
Speaker 1: isn't it true? And then we had the Reagan era before.

840
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 1: In some ways, it's also like on the one hand,

841
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 1: it's probably this combination of affluent and oppression that makes

842
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 1: the young folks get out and say no more, we're

843
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:37,320
Speaker 1: studying for this, we're putting it in our is a

844
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:42,759
Speaker 1: renaissance of you know whatever. So it's it's um, it's economic,

845
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 1: it's political, and as as you said, when a crisis

846
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:52,319
Speaker 1: of that degree happens, people respond by saying no more.

847
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:56,439
Speaker 1: I mean, you were up against so much with the song,

848
00:51:56,560 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 1: UN have to fight to keep damning the title. You know,

849
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:01,839
Speaker 1: the initial video for Damn I Wish I Was Your

850
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 1: Lover was rejected by MTV because you were dancing with

851
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:07,280
Speaker 1: the black man in it. And you know, of course,

852
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 1: you know, you you've got this so ambiguous, it's actually

853
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:17,280
Speaker 1: ambiguous song that it could be interpreted, you know, as lesbian, homerotic,

854
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 1: depending on you know, the perspective of the narrator, who

855
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:24,719
Speaker 1: the narrator is. UM. I just feel like you there

856
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:29,240
Speaker 1: was so much pushback from every angle. I think that

857
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 1: whatever the gay mafia was thought I wasn't gay enough,

858
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:35,840
Speaker 1: and I think that that was a UM. Something that

859
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:39,440
Speaker 1: may not have helped me was that I wasn't you know,

860
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 1: when I said omisexual, I wasn't saying lesbian or gay.

861
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:44,440
Speaker 1: And I think that there was a big problem with

862
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:47,279
Speaker 1: that in the gay community because at that time, they

863
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 1: wanted people to come out and say I'm gay or

864
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:53,239
Speaker 1: I'm straight, and they really wanted people who might be gay,

865
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:56,360
Speaker 1: to be gay, and I couldn't in all honestly, I

866
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:58,239
Speaker 1: told you this a little bit of my history. I

867
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 1: was young, I was in my twenties. I had spent

868
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:04,000
Speaker 1: the greater part of my life with this in some

869
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 1: ways amazing man and um have you know, very short

870
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:14,600
Speaker 1: but phenomenally passionate relationships with women. And I couldn't really

871
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:16,920
Speaker 1: know what I was in the song. And this is

872
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:20,320
Speaker 1: what I meant to say, is meant to say, create

873
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:26,120
Speaker 1: your own life, create your own um, your own roadmap.

874
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:29,520
Speaker 1: Don't like. That's why I think I add all the

875
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:32,279
Speaker 1: story in, because when you listen to the story, you

876
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 1: don't go she's one thing or another and she's telling

877
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:36,520
Speaker 1: us to be one thing or another. I think what

878
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 1: I'm saying is, what's your story? This is mine, what's

879
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:43,800
Speaker 1: your story. Yeah, it's interesting. It's almost like the community

880
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 1: was asking you to, you know, decide, like, either you're

881
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 1: with us or you're not with us right now, and

882
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:51,920
Speaker 1: you know, we don't want any gray areas, you know.

883
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 1: I think that was partly because there was such an

884
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:55,759
Speaker 1: urgency because of the AIDS crisis for people to be

885
00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 1: out and proud and to fight, you know, for the

886
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:00,759
Speaker 1: rights and I don't think you would have that same

887
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:05,200
Speaker 1: sort of you know, ultimatum today. You could get away

888
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:07,680
Speaker 1: with just saying I'm homnisexual, I don't like labels, I'm

889
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:10,319
Speaker 1: lgbt Q. You know, I think it was different. Then

890
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:12,239
Speaker 1: I think you're right, And I think again, that's the

891
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:15,920
Speaker 1: highly political nature of where we were and it and

892
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:21,880
Speaker 1: it gave some causes fuel because everyone was suddenly so political,

893
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:25,080
Speaker 1: but it gave some it took away some of the nuances.

894
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:28,120
Speaker 1: And I don't think anyone could have ever called me gray.

895
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 1: And I say in the song I'm everything, and tonight

896
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:36,720
Speaker 1: I'll be your mother. So that's not gray. That's really

897
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:40,240
Speaker 1: true as far as I'm concerned. And I also believe

898
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 1: that we're connected on a soul level. We're in these bodies,

899
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:47,120
Speaker 1: but we're not defined by our bodies. I keep trying

900
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:49,240
Speaker 1: to say that. That's why I love the trans movement,

901
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 1: because I'm saying, if someone is saying they're not defined

902
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:55,359
Speaker 1: by what you see, let them say that and let

903
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 1: them define themselves. This is the core of being a

904
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:00,799
Speaker 1: human is as having a soul. I didn't. If you

905
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:04,080
Speaker 1: find out the voice of your soul and you're speaking

906
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:06,040
Speaker 1: the voice of your soul. You're not speaking the voice

907
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:09,920
Speaker 1: of your penis or your vagina hopefully or else if

908
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 1: you are, and it's a boring song. So would you

909
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:16,759
Speaker 1: have done anything differently when this song was blowing up,

910
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 1: and when your career was blowing up, and when you

911
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:24,840
Speaker 1: were becoming musically Musically I've always been true, um, But

912
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:27,960
Speaker 1: definitely as a as a self promoter, I would have

913
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:31,000
Speaker 1: done a ton of things differently. I think the you know,

914
00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 1: the the weight of my mistakes was really difficult on

915
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:37,719
Speaker 1: my career and as on me as an artist, and

916
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:43,560
Speaker 1: I just wasn't emotionally developed enough for society in some ways.

917
00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:46,440
Speaker 1: I was developed so much in the artistic way and

918
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 1: then this intimate way, but in terms of dealing with people,

919
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 1: I really didn't see and understand a lot and I

920
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:56,719
Speaker 1: made just too many mistakes that were crushing. And if

921
00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:59,440
Speaker 1: I had good people around me, that really but you know,

922
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:01,400
Speaker 1: if I had what I have known it I don't know.

923
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:05,720
Speaker 1: That's it's it's all that coming from where I came from,

924
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:08,560
Speaker 1: you know, coming from where I came from, I did amazingly.

925
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:12,279
Speaker 1: It's a it's a miracle. But do I look back

926
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:15,360
Speaker 1: on it and wish that I had other tools, Oh god,

927
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:18,359
Speaker 1: But you know what, I still have me and I'm

928
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:20,799
Speaker 1: still working, and I love my new material and I'm

929
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:23,440
Speaker 1: still look I'm still promoting the old materials. So I

930
00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:25,319
Speaker 1: actually have to say, I look at it, but my

931
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:29,440
Speaker 1: glass is pretty full. But yes, I would have saved

932
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:32,280
Speaker 1: myself a lot of suffering if I had had other

933
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:36,200
Speaker 1: if I had had more tools, just simply put. You

934
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:38,759
Speaker 1: think when you say tools, do you mean you know

935
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:43,160
Speaker 1: about her support system or more? Yes, yes, able, yes,

936
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:47,279
Speaker 1: able to find able to believe in myself in that

937
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 1: like it's like I would go very very far, but

938
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 1: it would be that last inch. And I think that

939
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:54,920
Speaker 1: Sony and I don't, and I don't think there's a

940
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:57,239
Speaker 1: person who works at Sony who would have said I

941
00:56:57,239 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 1: could have done more. They were pretty health label and

942
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:04,400
Speaker 1: they were very hard to deal with and to survive on.

943
00:57:04,719 --> 00:57:19,040
Speaker 1: And I eventually laughed. As you know. The last couple

944
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:20,440
Speaker 1: of questions, I wanted to ask you about some of

945
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:23,440
Speaker 1: the lyrics as well, um, because some of them are

946
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:29,120
Speaker 1: really esoteric, just sort of vague. Um O page you

947
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:31,840
Speaker 1: used I think is a good word as well. Um,

948
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:34,080
Speaker 1: this sort of in verse two, you you sing this

949
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 1: monkey can't stand to see you black and blue. I

950
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:38,640
Speaker 1: give you something sweet each time you come inside my

951
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:42,080
Speaker 1: jungle book. What is it just too good? Don't say

952
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:45,760
Speaker 1: you'll stay, because then you go away? What what? What?

953
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:48,640
Speaker 1: What is this? Uh? What's the story with the monkey

954
00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:52,840
Speaker 1: and the jungle Book? Well, the monkey is something that

955
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:57,480
Speaker 1: is developing. I can see through my journals. It's sort

956
00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:00,080
Speaker 1: of a survival technique. I think in the city and

957
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:04,920
Speaker 1: things that were happening around, and I think that the

958
00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:08,520
Speaker 1: the jungle Book is definitely you know, Rogert Kipling Mowgli

959
00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:11,240
Speaker 1: that I had this image of myself again. It's sort

960
00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:14,440
Speaker 1: of this identity of that's how I will survive, That's

961
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:17,880
Speaker 1: how I will remain pure, remain an untouched, pure child,

962
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:20,640
Speaker 1: regardless of all these things that happen, is that I

963
00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:23,640
Speaker 1: will be Mowgli in a jungle book, and I'm inviting

964
00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:27,800
Speaker 1: this person to come to my my like my it's

965
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:33,680
Speaker 1: like my least manipulative self, My least manipulative part is

966
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:36,920
Speaker 1: that you can come inside my jungle book where it's

967
00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:40,000
Speaker 1: a story and it's safe, and I can talk to

968
00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:44,800
Speaker 1: the animals and it's just like this beautiful it's you know,

969
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:47,320
Speaker 1: I wasn't aware of it. This is what really comes

970
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:49,960
Speaker 1: out of me. That's what came out of me, and

971
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:52,120
Speaker 1: people related to it, and I think they related to

972
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 1: it on their child self as well. And that Yeah,

973
00:58:56,640 --> 00:58:59,640
Speaker 1: because I also read it as and again open to interpretation,

974
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:01,960
Speaker 1: which we sat all along here. I also read this

975
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:07,480
Speaker 1: very very suggestive, you know, very very suggestive, very essensual sexual,

976
00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:11,800
Speaker 1: which certainly fits with what this song is about. And

977
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:14,680
Speaker 1: then I see at the end which I've never heard

978
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:17,320
Speaker 1: this bit, this might be sort of as it starts

979
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:21,080
Speaker 1: to fade out, getting on my camel, going to ride

980
00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:27,360
Speaker 1: it uptown. Yeah, it's just, you know, then I was

981
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:33,320
Speaker 1: just singing improvisationally, and I don't know, I think it's

982
00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:35,760
Speaker 1: that there must have been something going on in my

983
00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:38,040
Speaker 1: head with who I was speaking to, you know, who

984
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:40,560
Speaker 1: I was singing too. And again again it could do

985
00:59:40,600 --> 00:59:44,760
Speaker 1: all the political references, you know, what was going on Afghanistan, everything,

986
00:59:45,280 --> 00:59:48,439
Speaker 1: just trying to maybe bring in a maybe an more

987
00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:51,600
Speaker 1: ancient sense that this is like not in this time,

988
00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:54,360
Speaker 1: you know, because I'm getting on my subway than I say,

989
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:56,480
Speaker 1: I'm getting on my camel. It's like, no matter what

990
00:59:56,640 --> 00:59:59,439
Speaker 1: time we're in, you know, whether it's four thousand years

991
00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:02,240
Speaker 1: ago or thousand usual now I'm still gonna wish I

992
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:14,400
Speaker 1: was your lover. I love how I'm discussing hit Sophie B.

993
01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:17,640
Speaker 1: Hawkins unintentionally summed up another hit single from that year,

994
01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:20,960
Speaker 1: a little song by your queer contemporary Katie Lange called

995
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:26,600
Speaker 1: Constant Craving. That jam also tackled the subject of unrequited romance,

996
01:00:26,680 --> 01:00:29,360
Speaker 1: and it also drove home the idea that love and

997
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:33,600
Speaker 1: lust are innate and eternal, the irrefutable part of the

998
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:40,040
Speaker 1: human condition. As Lang sings, always someone marches brave here

999
01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:47,680
Speaker 1: beneath my skin, and constant craving has always been. And

1000
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:50,520
Speaker 1: that regard these songs from albums released within a month

1001
01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:55,080
Speaker 1: of one another, service companion pieces two tracks became queer anthems,

1002
01:00:55,520 --> 01:00:59,320
Speaker 1: transcending bigotry and homophobia to make stars of the musicians

1003
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:02,960
Speaker 1: behind them. It's impossible to overstate their significance in a

1004
01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:05,800
Speaker 1: year when most queer artists and performers remained firmly in

1005
01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:08,440
Speaker 1: the closet, some line not only to their fans and

1006
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:11,880
Speaker 1: loved ones, but to themselves. In a year when the

1007
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:15,080
Speaker 1: AIDS crisis was in full swing, becoming the leading cause

1008
01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:18,280
Speaker 1: of death among men between the ages of forty four

1009
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:22,120
Speaker 1: and casting a shadow over sexual encounters of any kind.

1010
01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:26,080
Speaker 1: In a year when President George H. W. Bush, in

1011
01:01:26,120 --> 01:01:30,200
Speaker 1: a bid for reelection, toughened his stance on lgbt Q rights,

1012
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:32,960
Speaker 1: telling The New York Times that he could not accept

1013
01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:37,280
Speaker 1: same sex parenting as quote unquote normal. Without trailblazers like

1014
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:39,960
Speaker 1: Lang and Hawkins, who dare to speak their truth with

1015
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:42,840
Speaker 1: hopes that others would do the same, we'd likely never

1016
01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:47,040
Speaker 1: have acts like Shannel, Moe st Vincent Kloni, Randy Carlyle,

1017
01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:51,360
Speaker 1: will nas X, Sam Smith, Choice, van Orville Peck, Hailey,

1018
01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:55,480
Speaker 1: Kiyoko King, Princess. These are just a handful of LGBTQ

1019
01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:58,439
Speaker 1: musicians who have taken their lead writing about same sex

1020
01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:01,960
Speaker 1: love and desire, sharing their tells of pain, yearning, confusion,

1021
01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:06,960
Speaker 1: self acceptance, celebration, and liberation. They too, have forged careers

1022
01:02:07,040 --> 01:02:11,640
Speaker 1: on their own terms, subverting norms and defying expectations. Like

1023
01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:14,520
Speaker 1: Lang and Hawkins before them, they have freed their minds,

1024
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:17,720
Speaker 1: unashamed to step out of the darkness and into the light.

1025
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:46,280
Speaker 1: Where Were You in ninety two was a production of

1026
01:02:46,360 --> 01:02:49,800
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. The executive producers are Noel Brown and

1027
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:53,520
Speaker 1: Jordan run Todd. The show was researched, written, and hosted

1028
01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:56,680
Speaker 1: by me Jason Laffier, with editing and sound design by

1029
01:02:56,760 --> 01:03:00,280
Speaker 1: Michael Alder June. If you like what you heard, please

1030
01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:03,200
Speaker 1: subscribe and leave us a review. For more podcasts for

1031
01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:05,720
Speaker 1: My Heart Radio, check out the I heart Radio app,

1032
01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:08,720
Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

1033
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:13,640
Speaker 1: H