1
00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,320
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

2
00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:19,160
Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

3
00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,320
Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

4
00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:26,440
Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford,

5
00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:31,880
Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

6
00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,400
Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

7
00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,120
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope

8
00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:43,040
Speaker 1: you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it

9
00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:46,080
Speaker 1: is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship

10
00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:57,160
Speaker 1: with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so

11
00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,400
Speaker 1: much for joining me for session to seventy two of

12
00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:02,560
Speaker 1: the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into

13
00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:14,639
Speaker 1: our conversation after a word from our sponsors. Over their years,

14
00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:19,080
Speaker 1: there have been many public conversations around academic institutions failing

15
00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:23,160
Speaker 1: to adequately support black women, leaving many brilliant sisters feeling

16
00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:27,840
Speaker 1: burned out, discouraged, and undervalued. At the same time, the

17
00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:30,920
Speaker 1: desire for black women to pursue higher education and secure

18
00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:35,959
Speaker 1: tenure roles at universities still exists, and rightfully so. Black

19
00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:39,160
Speaker 1: women deserve a seat and higher education just like everyone else.

20
00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:43,000
Speaker 1: The question is for those who want to pursue higher education,

21
00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:47,720
Speaker 1: what should they know beforehand? Joining me today to discuss

22
00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:51,560
Speaker 1: Black women navigating the academic arena are Professor Helen A.

23
00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,480
Speaker 1: Nevill and Dr del A VI Moseley. Professor Nevill is

24
00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:59,440
Speaker 1: an educational psychology and African American Studies professor at the

25
00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:03,520
Speaker 1: Universe Dave Illinois at Urbana Champagne. Dr Moseley is the

26
00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:07,640
Speaker 1: co founder of Academics for Black Survival and Wellness. In

27
00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:11,080
Speaker 1: our conversation, we break down the difficulties black women face

28
00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,960
Speaker 1: while pursuing tenure track positions in academia, what Black women

29
00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:18,400
Speaker 1: should consider in their assessment of whether to get into academia,

30
00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,919
Speaker 1: and what other pathways exists to pursue how your education.

31
00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,280
Speaker 1: If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please

32
00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,480
Speaker 1: share with us on social media using the hashtag TBG

33
00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:32,960
Speaker 1: in session or join us over in the sister circles

34
00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:35,359
Speaker 1: To talk more in depth about the episode. You can

35
00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,880
Speaker 1: join us at community dot therapy for Black Girls dot Com.

36
00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:44,400
Speaker 1: Here's our conversation. Well, I am just so thrilled to

37
00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,160
Speaker 1: be with you both today and very excited to chat

38
00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:49,720
Speaker 1: with you and to just really have you been able

39
00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:51,520
Speaker 1: to share your expert teeth in so much of your

40
00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:55,600
Speaker 1: knowledge related to black women in academia. I'd love for

41
00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:58,240
Speaker 1: us to get started by just talking about what do

42
00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:01,200
Speaker 1: we mean when we talk about women in academia, Like

43
00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:03,560
Speaker 1: what does that cover and who does that cover? I

44
00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:06,080
Speaker 1: want to first thank you so much for the invitation

45
00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,160
Speaker 1: to be in community and be on this podcast. It

46
00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,320
Speaker 1: means so much to me. When we think about what

47
00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:14,840
Speaker 1: are we talking about Black women the academy, We're thinking

48
00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:20,160
Speaker 1: about people on tenure track, people that are specialty faculty

49
00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:23,480
Speaker 1: and clinical faculty, and I realized that might not mean

50
00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:27,640
Speaker 1: anything to our listeners. So just real quick. Tenure track

51
00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:32,480
Speaker 1: is for faculty that are part of teaching institutions or

52
00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:36,240
Speaker 1: research institutions, and that essentially means if they work for

53
00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,520
Speaker 1: six years seven years and they do what they should

54
00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:43,280
Speaker 1: be doing in terms of their research, teaching, and service,

55
00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:46,400
Speaker 1: they can go up for tenure. And you go up

56
00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:49,760
Speaker 1: for tenure, and in your seventh year, if you're granted tenure,

57
00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:53,880
Speaker 1: it means you have job stability and permanency, so you

58
00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:56,440
Speaker 1: have a job for life if you decide to stay

59
00:03:56,480 --> 00:04:00,600
Speaker 1: in that position. There are also what they call clinical

60
00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:05,800
Speaker 1: faculty and clinical faculty can teach about clinical issues or

61
00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:09,720
Speaker 1: teach undergraduate courses, but it's not tenure track, and that

62
00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:14,640
Speaker 1: essentially means that after this six or seven year probationary period,

63
00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,240
Speaker 1: they might not get this job for life. So that's

64
00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:22,000
Speaker 1: essentially what I mean In terms of academia. Nowadays, we

65
00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:25,600
Speaker 1: also have a whole range of other kinds of configurations

66
00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,960
Speaker 1: where you can have people teaching part time. You have

67
00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,960
Speaker 1: what they call adjunct faculty that are part of the academy,

68
00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:36,680
Speaker 1: but it doesn't have this tenure track status, which is

69
00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:41,640
Speaker 1: important in terms of giving you academic freedom, allowing you

70
00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:45,480
Speaker 1: to research the kinds of questions you're interested in, allowing

71
00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:48,040
Speaker 1: you to teach the type of materials you're interested in.

72
00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:51,320
Speaker 1: God it, I really appreciate you explaining that, doctor never,

73
00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:53,479
Speaker 1: because I think that that is confusing. I know, for

74
00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:55,640
Speaker 1: a very long time I was confused about what that

75
00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,039
Speaker 1: meant to be tenure track and how you get that.

76
00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:00,520
Speaker 1: And I still think that there's a lot out of

77
00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:06,080
Speaker 1: not controversy, but it feels like, specifically for people of color,

78
00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,720
Speaker 1: black women, specifically, this whole journey to tenure track can

79
00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,920
Speaker 1: be very fragile, I think, and like there's a lot

80
00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:16,200
Speaker 1: of bumps and bruises I think along the way. And

81
00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:18,479
Speaker 1: so Dr Mosley, I love for you to share because

82
00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:23,400
Speaker 1: you recently made the decision to leave a tenure position, right,

83
00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:25,279
Speaker 1: and so I love to hear a little bit about

84
00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:28,960
Speaker 1: what made you decide to pursue that opportunity in the

85
00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:33,040
Speaker 1: first place, and then what impacted your decision to leave. Yeah,

86
00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,800
Speaker 1: thank you, Dr Joy and I'm also really happy to

87
00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,039
Speaker 1: be here in conversation with you all and to be

88
00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:42,040
Speaker 1: talking to the Therapy for Black Girl's audience. I'm didn't

89
00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,880
Speaker 1: start out in academia or start my grad program thinking

90
00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:47,880
Speaker 1: I wanted to be a professor. It was through having

91
00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:52,040
Speaker 1: really great mentors like Dr Helen Neville and Dr Campis

92
00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:56,200
Speaker 1: heard Guns who made the professor role look attractive. I

93
00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,599
Speaker 1: was someone who came in to grad school and later

94
00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,160
Speaker 1: to my doc program thinking that I wanted to do,

95
00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:04,800
Speaker 1: you know, community work and serve the queer and trends

96
00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:07,680
Speaker 1: youth of color, maybe have a center, things like that.

97
00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:10,880
Speaker 1: But seeing the reach that these academics had and the

98
00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,640
Speaker 1: way that they could bring more of theirselves to the

99
00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,400
Speaker 1: job that I didn't see some of the majority white

100
00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:18,680
Speaker 1: faculty members so I had previously been engaging with have

101
00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:21,040
Speaker 1: it may be like, oh, I can see myself here,

102
00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,600
Speaker 1: and then yeah, being able to have that what Dr

103
00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,880
Speaker 1: Nevill was saying about the freedom to study and pursue

104
00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,200
Speaker 1: the questions that you most want to pursue and have

105
00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:32,480
Speaker 1: that like safety to do that and to bring in

106
00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,080
Speaker 1: the students to a doc program to train with you

107
00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:38,680
Speaker 1: for several years to get into that work. Really deeply,

108
00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:40,600
Speaker 1: that was exciting to me and a luring to me

109
00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,560
Speaker 1: and why I pursued a tenure track job. So my

110
00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:47,279
Speaker 1: entire doct journey, I was doing the work so that

111
00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:49,000
Speaker 1: I could have different options or whether it wants to

112
00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,640
Speaker 1: clinical work or do advocacy work or have that center,

113
00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:53,760
Speaker 1: but also so that I would be competitive on a

114
00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:57,960
Speaker 1: tenure track job search and ultimately chose that path. But yeah,

115
00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:00,479
Speaker 1: lots of bumps and bruises came along the way. I

116
00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,120
Speaker 1: only ended up saying at the university on the tenure

117
00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:07,839
Speaker 1: track path for three years, so not that long career

118
00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:10,800
Speaker 1: that I had hoped for. And there's lots of feels

119
00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,920
Speaker 1: about that. Mm hmmm. Do you want to share any

120
00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,160
Speaker 1: of those fields or what made you decide to come

121
00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:19,560
Speaker 1: off of that path and pursue something else. When I

122
00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:22,320
Speaker 1: started my master's program in school counseling, I knew from

123
00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:23,640
Speaker 1: day one, I kind of like I knew what my

124
00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,200
Speaker 1: assignment was. I was coming off of some work, some

125
00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:28,480
Speaker 1: really awesome work at a job Corse Center in DC,

126
00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:31,680
Speaker 1: and I knew that my work was to create more

127
00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,040
Speaker 1: spaces of safety and wellness and healing for clear and

128
00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:37,960
Speaker 1: trans people of color and black people like period. And

129
00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:41,400
Speaker 1: so following that path, it made sense to do that

130
00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:43,840
Speaker 1: through school counseling. It then made sense to pursue the

131
00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:47,480
Speaker 1: doctorate and then to start this research lab and continue

132
00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:49,960
Speaker 1: to do my work in the university setting that way.

133
00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:54,800
Speaker 1: But in summer of when the murders of George Floyd

134
00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:58,120
Speaker 1: and Brianna Taylor and a Mod Aubrey and so many

135
00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:02,119
Speaker 1: others were taking centers, it was calling non black folks

136
00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,680
Speaker 1: to desire some education, which it's the type of education

137
00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:07,960
Speaker 1: that I had been doing as a counseling psychologist. And

138
00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:10,680
Speaker 1: then it was also calling for black folks to meet

139
00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:12,560
Speaker 1: spaces of healing, which is what I had been doing

140
00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,800
Speaker 1: as a counseling psychologist. So in that summer, one of

141
00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:19,200
Speaker 1: my doc students, Paris Bellamy, who is now Dr Paris

142
00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,840
Speaker 1: Bellamy and I co created Academics for Black Survival and Wellness,

143
00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,720
Speaker 1: and that was initiative that lasted over the summer and

144
00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:28,360
Speaker 1: that we got to work with great folks like Dr

145
00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:31,840
Speaker 1: Nevill and so many others, and we reached sixteen thousand

146
00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,200
Speaker 1: people that first summer offering these trainings and providing it

147
00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:37,640
Speaker 1: a free healing space for black folks. And so I

148
00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,800
Speaker 1: had this shift where I was able to see impact

149
00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,400
Speaker 1: and to have that impact while doing work with folks

150
00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,040
Speaker 1: who I really enjoyed doing the work with, who in

151
00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:48,160
Speaker 1: a space where I could be well while I did

152
00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:51,880
Speaker 1: the word. That was a major shift for me. And

153
00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:55,560
Speaker 1: then I go back to the university that fall, and

154
00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,520
Speaker 1: it's anti blackness as usual. It's back to the business

155
00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,719
Speaker 1: of the university. That is, not working with folks who

156
00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,880
Speaker 1: care about my safety and wellness as much, and not

157
00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:08,160
Speaker 1: appreciating the power and impact of what our work and

158
00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,200
Speaker 1: this work could do, and not feeling like I could

159
00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:12,240
Speaker 1: make it the same sort of impact that I was

160
00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:14,319
Speaker 1: able to make in just a summer. And so I

161
00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,840
Speaker 1: really started to grapple with where I should be and

162
00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,400
Speaker 1: how I can best complete my assignment I was just

163
00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,280
Speaker 1: looking back. I'm writing our paper about this right now,

164
00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:24,319
Speaker 1: and I was just looking back at the goodbye note

165
00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,640
Speaker 1: I sent to the department faculty, and I talked about

166
00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,400
Speaker 1: it as like leaving an abusive relationship, and that's really

167
00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,120
Speaker 1: what it felt like, you know, one that you had

168
00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:35,000
Speaker 1: sort of being so much fighting to make it work here.

169
00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:36,760
Speaker 1: You know, how do I make it work? I went

170
00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:39,320
Speaker 1: so far as to create this international initiative, right I'm

171
00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:41,520
Speaker 1: trying to see how we can make academia safe for

172
00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:44,440
Speaker 1: black folks and to reach its potential for black folks,

173
00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:46,240
Speaker 1: and so I'm doing it. I was fighting, and I

174
00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:48,120
Speaker 1: don't want to leave because the kids are still going

175
00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:49,600
Speaker 1: to be there and still it supposed to some of it,

176
00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:51,720
Speaker 1: and the kids being these mentees and students who I

177
00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:55,280
Speaker 1: love so much. But really, and that note, I was saying,

178
00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:57,439
Speaker 1: you know, I had to. I'm choosing to model something else,

179
00:09:57,520 --> 00:09:59,640
Speaker 1: that we don't have to be abused, and that they're

180
00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:06,360
Speaker 1: other spaces and places for us, and yeah, so, and

181
00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:10,160
Speaker 1: some sadness around that, but also feeling the relief and

182
00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:13,760
Speaker 1: the wellness that came from protecting myself, my spirit and

183
00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:17,240
Speaker 1: finding other ways to serve the communities. That I care

184
00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:21,160
Speaker 1: about m yeah, and such impactful work. And I really

185
00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,360
Speaker 1: appreciate what you said about seeing people like Dr Neville,

186
00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,800
Speaker 1: Dr Hogan's, Dr Phelps, who was my major professor, right, like,

187
00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,200
Speaker 1: do all of these really cool things, it feels like

188
00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:32,280
Speaker 1: in academia, and so then you feel like there is

189
00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:34,480
Speaker 1: a space for me. Look at these sisters, like you

190
00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:37,120
Speaker 1: know they're doing all these things, and then unfortunately, I

191
00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,880
Speaker 1: think there is often a reality check like, oh, yes,

192
00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,680
Speaker 1: they are doing amazing work, but I don't know if

193
00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:46,360
Speaker 1: this is my lane, right, And so Dr Neville, I'd

194
00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:48,840
Speaker 1: love to hear from you because you are someone I

195
00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,880
Speaker 1: think you know, especially in our field of counseling psychology,

196
00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:54,680
Speaker 1: it feels like you have been the one of the

197
00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:58,120
Speaker 1: people who has like ushered so many I think specifically

198
00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:00,880
Speaker 1: black women into the field, and so I love to

199
00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,679
Speaker 1: hear from you. What has really aided in your longevity

200
00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:06,880
Speaker 1: and what kinds of things would you share with someone

201
00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,240
Speaker 1: who maybe wants to follow in your footsteps but doesn't

202
00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:13,560
Speaker 1: necessarily see academia as a place that like really can

203
00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:17,640
Speaker 1: allow them to thrive. Thank you for that question. I

204
00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:21,480
Speaker 1: really like this question, and as you were asking it,

205
00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,880
Speaker 1: I was reflecting on my own kind of career. I

206
00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:29,080
Speaker 1: have been in academia for about thirty years now, so

207
00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:33,200
Speaker 1: it's a long time. And when I think about the question,

208
00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:37,760
Speaker 1: I reflect on like why did I even go into academia?

209
00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,920
Speaker 1: What is my purpose here? And there's a couple of things.

210
00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:45,640
Speaker 1: One is, when I was on internship at the University

211
00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:49,600
Speaker 1: of Southern California and their counseling center doing therapy, I

212
00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:51,960
Speaker 1: was like, I got to go to plan B. This

213
00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:55,000
Speaker 1: is not gonna work for me, Okay, so we got

214
00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:59,400
Speaker 1: to figure something out. I loved seeing clients, but I

215
00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:03,760
Speaker 1: also knew that was not where my passion was. And

216
00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,840
Speaker 1: so I figured I would go into academia because I

217
00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:10,960
Speaker 1: also enjoyed doing research was at a different time. And

218
00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:13,720
Speaker 1: what I did was I gave myself the seven years.

219
00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:15,679
Speaker 1: I said, Okay, I'm going to go to the University

220
00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:19,800
Speaker 1: Missouri Columbia. I'm going to see, Okay, can I make

221
00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:23,880
Speaker 1: it being my authentic self? Because I too was unwilling

222
00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:28,720
Speaker 1: to compromise my youth for a job. It's nest not

223
00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:33,079
Speaker 1: worth it. And what I found in academia was that

224
00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:37,400
Speaker 1: I was able to really find what my meaning and

225
00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:41,559
Speaker 1: purpose and passion was, and I'm in higher education so

226
00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:45,800
Speaker 1: that I can help and cultivate young minds, so that

227
00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:51,280
Speaker 1: I can serve as an advocate for African Americans and

228
00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:55,600
Speaker 1: other students of color, so that I can show them

229
00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,840
Speaker 1: that there's a different way I can be a source

230
00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:02,840
Speaker 1: of support. Like I really feel is that that is

231
00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:06,200
Speaker 1: what I am called to do. And so when we

232
00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:10,080
Speaker 1: have all of this other information and all these other toxicity,

233
00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:14,600
Speaker 1: I kind of remain that students really need somebody there

234
00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:18,120
Speaker 1: to advocate for them, and this is something that brings

235
00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,800
Speaker 1: me meaning and purpose. I'm also interested in working with

236
00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,800
Speaker 1: white students in developing a sense of critical awareness about

237
00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:29,200
Speaker 1: racism and other forms of oppression, and so to be

238
00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,960
Speaker 1: able to do that work is really important. The second

239
00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,440
Speaker 1: thing that really draws me in and keeps me in

240
00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,480
Speaker 1: the academy is I love to do research. I love it.

241
00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:42,920
Speaker 1: I love to think about ideas. I love to do

242
00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:47,920
Speaker 1: research that I think will help improve our communities. And

243
00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:51,080
Speaker 1: I can't think of any other job for me. There's

244
00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,000
Speaker 1: other jobs out there, but for me that would allow

245
00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:56,480
Speaker 1: me to do the work that I feel passionate about.

246
00:13:57,600 --> 00:13:59,720
Speaker 1: And then when I think about, like, well, what's cut

247
00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:02,080
Speaker 1: me or all of that has kept me there. But

248
00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:06,000
Speaker 1: I remember Dr Joseph White and others. For those people

249
00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:09,920
Speaker 1: who don't know Dr Joseph White, he's considered the godfather

250
00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:14,440
Speaker 1: of black psychology, and he has somewhat of what I

251
00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:19,160
Speaker 1: would call a doctor White mantra or a proverb from

252
00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:21,600
Speaker 1: Dr White, and that is, you don't look to those

253
00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:25,760
Speaker 1: of the oppressors to validate you. And having that message

254
00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:30,360
Speaker 1: early on gave me permission to look to other people

255
00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:35,280
Speaker 1: like me who had similar values to get feedback, and

256
00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,440
Speaker 1: that feedback could be critical feedback. We don't want to say, oh, yes,

257
00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:40,920
Speaker 1: you're great, We want critical feedback so we can improve.

258
00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:43,920
Speaker 1: So when white folks didn't like what I was doing

259
00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,640
Speaker 1: or didn't approve of me, all the kinds of stuff

260
00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:51,000
Speaker 1: that we know happens, I was able to reflect on that,

261
00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,200
Speaker 1: and I think that's really important. And the other thing

262
00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:58,080
Speaker 1: that I think really saves me is in my academic positions,

263
00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:02,760
Speaker 1: I've had joint appointments in black studies, and so that

264
00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:07,560
Speaker 1: then says the work that I do centering black voices matters,

265
00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:11,360
Speaker 1: no matter what anybody else says. Thank you so much

266
00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:13,600
Speaker 1: for that, Doctor nev I think that that's incredibly helpful.

267
00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,400
Speaker 1: I got goose bumps as you were sharing Dr White's

268
00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,360
Speaker 1: words because I think that those are so important and

269
00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:20,840
Speaker 1: I really appreciate what you said about it like being

270
00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,640
Speaker 1: your calling, you know, because it's Dr Moseley, and I

271
00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:25,960
Speaker 1: talked a little earlier about like her feeling like that

272
00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,560
Speaker 1: wasn't her calling, And it's okay for us to have

273
00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:30,960
Speaker 1: different ones, right, and so it's okay to pursue something

274
00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:33,880
Speaker 1: and then figure out, like what my talent and skills

275
00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,680
Speaker 1: would be better served somewhere else writing so that it

276
00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:38,360
Speaker 1: sounds like a lot of that is what you've done,

277
00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:41,880
Speaker 1: Dr Mosley, and creating academics for Black lives and you know,

278
00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,360
Speaker 1: all of the work that you're doing there. Yeah, I

279
00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,440
Speaker 1: appreciate that. I appreshare page to share, Doctor Nevill. There's

280
00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:52,000
Speaker 1: a lot of talk lately of black women, particularly leaving academia,

281
00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:56,440
Speaker 1: but just folks leaving academia. And I had mentioned Harris

282
00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:00,600
Speaker 1: just defending her beautiful dissertation two weeks ago and how

283
00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,240
Speaker 1: amazing that was, and but what you're sharing, Dr Nevill

284
00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:06,520
Speaker 1: was like that joy around the research and having access

285
00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,520
Speaker 1: to the academy is a space where the thinking and

286
00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,920
Speaker 1: idea making and like we're all the resources where that happens.

287
00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,880
Speaker 1: It's just so real and so powerful, and it was

288
00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,040
Speaker 1: so joyful. It was like a big part of why

289
00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,800
Speaker 1: I chose that pathway. And so it's right after her

290
00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,280
Speaker 1: defense and this beautiful celebration, the tears of joy of

291
00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:27,160
Speaker 1: her crossing that heart on and what we did together

292
00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,560
Speaker 1: were there. But then when I was alone, it was

293
00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,880
Speaker 1: the tears of grief that I wasn't able to have

294
00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,640
Speaker 1: my own safety and wellness in that setting, and that

295
00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,160
Speaker 1: I'll maybe only have two to three other students who

296
00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:42,600
Speaker 1: I see through to a dissertation. I think I'm feeling

297
00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:46,240
Speaker 1: that again in this moment as you share about how

298
00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:48,960
Speaker 1: you were able to persist and how special that is.

299
00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:51,560
Speaker 1: I'm feeling a lot of gratitude for you being there

300
00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:54,840
Speaker 1: for thirty years to see so many PhD s through,

301
00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,080
Speaker 1: because it's a special process that many of us can't

302
00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,600
Speaker 1: make it through. So thank you. Well, I just wanted

303
00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:04,119
Speaker 1: to Dr Mosley. I think I am so inspired by

304
00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:08,560
Speaker 1: you and the work that you're doing and by younger

305
00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:12,880
Speaker 1: folks charting out their path. When I was going through,

306
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,399
Speaker 1: it was like either you do academia or you do counseling.

307
00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:21,480
Speaker 1: And applied work. Now you all are creating centers and

308
00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:28,600
Speaker 1: podcast and revolutionizing how we think about wellness. Both of

309
00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:33,280
Speaker 1: you are doing that and I find that incredibly inspiring.

310
00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:37,960
Speaker 1: And how you are dreaming big dreams, dreams that really

311
00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:41,959
Speaker 1: weren't available at least not to a working class person

312
00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:45,520
Speaker 1: like me going through schools, you know, public schools, et cetera.

313
00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:50,080
Speaker 1: So I'm loving how you all are redefining what you

314
00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:53,679
Speaker 1: can do with a PhD. And I am ingratitude to

315
00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:57,640
Speaker 1: you both. Thank you, Dctor Nevill, I appreciate it more

316
00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:13,560
Speaker 1: from my conversation with Dr Nevill and DRM after the break, So, documpletely,

317
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,480
Speaker 1: I wanted to explain some of your thoughts about the

318
00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,920
Speaker 1: safety and wellness that you feel like is really critical

319
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:23,080
Speaker 1: to protect black women in academia. Can you say a

320
00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,320
Speaker 1: little bit more about that and like what that might

321
00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:27,800
Speaker 1: look like, what it would look like to have the

322
00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:30,679
Speaker 1: safety and wellness long going through the program is. I

323
00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:32,960
Speaker 1: think it's it's like what got me through my PhD

324
00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:34,560
Speaker 1: and when I hope I was able to provide to

325
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:40,040
Speaker 1: my students fall I was there, but it was having mentors, educators,

326
00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:44,200
Speaker 1: advisors who allowed you to be a learner I think

327
00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:46,800
Speaker 1: that so often black women in academia going into a

328
00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,720
Speaker 1: space where one of the only black people there or

329
00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,880
Speaker 1: black women there, and especially if you're in mental health

330
00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:55,679
Speaker 1: or counseling realms, then you're being asked to be an

331
00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:58,199
Speaker 1: educator more than you're allowed to be a learner. And

332
00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:03,240
Speaker 1: so the safe D two like not know and to

333
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:07,080
Speaker 1: not you know, be the spokesperson, to be able to

334
00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:09,520
Speaker 1: bring in what you do know that might not fit

335
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:13,200
Speaker 1: for your people as your learning new theories or techniques,

336
00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:17,080
Speaker 1: and to be able to have someone like actually give

337
00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:19,359
Speaker 1: you something useful that you can use and bring back

338
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,040
Speaker 1: to your practice. I think that's what safety and wellness

339
00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:23,639
Speaker 1: looks like. It's being able to get your needs met

340
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,359
Speaker 1: in the academic space, and that's really rare for black women,

341
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:31,120
Speaker 1: I think even today. And so when we have those

342
00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,399
Speaker 1: educators who can answer those questions or who allow us

343
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,520
Speaker 1: to push whether or not they know the answers, and

344
00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,560
Speaker 1: who push back on the other students or other faculty

345
00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,199
Speaker 1: members who might be pulling for us to take on

346
00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:48,200
Speaker 1: other roles versus being that student in a training program,

347
00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:51,399
Speaker 1: that's I think a way of safety being provided for

348
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,480
Speaker 1: Black women navigating academia. I think it's important to have

349
00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:58,560
Speaker 1: someone outside of your university as your mentor someone who

350
00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,399
Speaker 1: you can go to to help you figure out what

351
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:02,960
Speaker 1: you're getting through and how to get through it, that

352
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,679
Speaker 1: doesn't have some of that power over you in the

353
00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:08,639
Speaker 1: system that is going to be granting you your degree,

354
00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,440
Speaker 1: or doesn't have to worry about the relationships or less

355
00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:14,200
Speaker 1: likely to have to worry about relationships with other faculty

356
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,639
Speaker 1: members as you bring those problems. And Doctor Novel was

357
00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:18,480
Speaker 1: that for me, and so I think that's one pathway

358
00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:22,679
Speaker 1: towards safety and wellness in the academy. And safety and

359
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:26,520
Speaker 1: wellness also comes from having to be the only one.

360
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:28,439
Speaker 1: So when I was recruiting students, I often tried to

361
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,320
Speaker 1: bring them in to our doc program in pairs or

362
00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:33,280
Speaker 1: after I knew that there was someone else who was

363
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:35,840
Speaker 1: studying something similar to them or was going to be

364
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,080
Speaker 1: on a similar timeline is them, so that they wouldn't

365
00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:40,960
Speaker 1: have to be the only one. I think just being

366
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,440
Speaker 1: intentional about how we are with black women whom we

367
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:47,440
Speaker 1: are bringing them, especially into primarily white, historically white institutions,

368
00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:49,800
Speaker 1: is a way of providing safety and wellness. So thinking

369
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,240
Speaker 1: about who they're coming in with what the rest of

370
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,800
Speaker 1: that cohort might look like. And then being the kind

371
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,160
Speaker 1: of mentor that sees them as a whole person and

372
00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:02,120
Speaker 1: is about them succeeding professionally their mental health career or

373
00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:04,920
Speaker 1: career as a psychologist, but also who are they as

374
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,840
Speaker 1: a person? How can they have as much wellness as

375
00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,960
Speaker 1: possible in a holistic way as they move through the program,

376
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:12,720
Speaker 1: Not that we have to be the ones to provide that,

377
00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,359
Speaker 1: but to be in conversation with them about it, to

378
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:17,399
Speaker 1: allow them to know that they are more than just

379
00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:19,679
Speaker 1: their academic selves, that it's a gift for them to

380
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:23,280
Speaker 1: bring more than just their academic self to the space.

381
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,520
Speaker 1: Thank you for that. Dr Nevil. You mentioned it feels

382
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:29,840
Speaker 1: like the world is so much bigger for PhD s

383
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,120
Speaker 1: now right Like, I agree with you. Historically it has

384
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:34,199
Speaker 1: been either you had a faculty job or you had

385
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,320
Speaker 1: a clinical job, right at least in psychology or the

386
00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:38,639
Speaker 1: mental health fields. So can you say a little bit

387
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:43,040
Speaker 1: about what makes it attractive for someone to pursue a

388
00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:46,000
Speaker 1: PhD right now? What kinds of career opportunities open up

389
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,800
Speaker 1: with a PhD? A lot of opportunities open up with

390
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:53,399
Speaker 1: a PhD. I think it allows you to have a

391
00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:57,800
Speaker 1: sense of credibility in your particular area. That can open

392
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:01,800
Speaker 1: up a lot of different avenues for you to establish

393
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,679
Speaker 1: whatever dream it is that you want to do. Of course,

394
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:09,119
Speaker 1: people are dream making and achieving those dreams without a PhD,

395
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:13,639
Speaker 1: but it gives you that sense of credibility. I also

396
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,439
Speaker 1: think that there's other things that are particularly important for

397
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 1: black women and black women who were first generation college students,

398
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,520
Speaker 1: or who don't have access to some of the social

399
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:27,720
Speaker 1: capital that many of our white colleagues do. It gives

400
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,239
Speaker 1: you greater financial security, and it can help you and

401
00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:36,520
Speaker 1: your family and your community. Because of that financial security,

402
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:40,440
Speaker 1: it allows you to engage in meaningful work with your

403
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,760
Speaker 1: degree because it opens up a whole range of doors

404
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:48,639
Speaker 1: and opportunities for you. I think higher education can be

405
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,720
Speaker 1: so rewarding if you are privileged enough to be able

406
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 1: to pursue higher education, that you grow as a human

407
00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 1: being and as a person. And by your growth, your

408
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 1: family grows and your community grows. So there's so much

409
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,520
Speaker 1: that you're able to do with a higher education. So

410
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:11,160
Speaker 1: don't let folks tell you that a PhD doesn't get

411
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 1: you anything. It gets you a lot, and it provides

412
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,080
Speaker 1: a lot for your families, and so I think those

413
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,760
Speaker 1: are really important. What people don't know is that if

414
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 1: you do get a PhD, most programs worth their assault

415
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 1: will pay you to get your PhD in the sense

416
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 1: that you do not have to pay for the actual

417
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 1: college credits, etcetera, and that you will be able to

418
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:41,120
Speaker 1: get a teaching assistant position or research assistant position. Now

419
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 1: whether or not you're able to really live off of

420
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:47,359
Speaker 1: those wages, that's a whole different story. But while you

421
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 1: are going to college, you hopefully won't leave with as

422
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,200
Speaker 1: much debt as you might have incrude as an undergraduate

423
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 1: or in a master's program. And I didn't never I

424
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,440
Speaker 1: wonder if you could also share because you talk earlier

425
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,520
Speaker 1: about the TENUA track piece, but I also have heard

426
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:07,640
Speaker 1: from colleagues in academia about some of the difficulty, So

427
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes the research that black women want to

428
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 1: do in the academy isn't always approved of or thought

429
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 1: as highly of. Also to your earlier point, Dr Mosy,

430
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,959
Speaker 1: you talked about being this listening ear for students, so

431
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 1: we know that there are a lot of like tests

432
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 1: that black women typically take on in academia that do

433
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,879
Speaker 1: not count towards the ten your portfolio. So I'm wondering

434
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,399
Speaker 1: if you can kind of speak to some of it. Yeah,

435
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 1: there are a lot of tasks. Some people say that

436
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:35,920
Speaker 1: some of the work that we do we should be

437
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 1: paid hazard pay for some of the things that we do,

438
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 1: not that the work that we do with other black students,

439
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 1: but the work that we have to do with white

440
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 1: colleagues and white students to sit and bear witness to

441
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 1: their racism and take that in. So, I guess the

442
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,199
Speaker 1: things that I struggle with is the balance between what

443
00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 1: I get from it and what I have to put

444
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 1: up with. And there are things that black women have

445
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 1: to deal with in the academy in terms of having

446
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,679
Speaker 1: the opportunity and privilege to work with students with the

447
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 1: demands of having to do research, you have to set

448
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 1: some boundaries there. The other thing is having to deal

449
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 1: with gingered racism or what l. Gioni Lewis talks about

450
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 1: gendered microaggressions, where things are targeted specifically toward us as

451
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 1: black woman. Like I had a white male colleague who

452
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: felt the need to disagree with me in every single

453
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,879
Speaker 1: public setting any time that I made a statement, whether

454
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 1: it was in front of students or whether it was

455
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 1: in front of faculty, and so at those times you

456
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,160
Speaker 1: just have to dig in deep and understand who you

457
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 1: are in the strength and tap into my larger purpose.

458
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 1: There are many ways that we are dismissed. But again

459
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,640
Speaker 1: reflecting back on Dr White's words, I do not look

460
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 1: to white people and their systems to judge or validate me.

461
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 1: So I've always decided that I will publish the work

462
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 1: that I want to publish in the journals that I

463
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 1: think are most appropriate, and if that is not good enough,

464
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 1: then I need to find another way. So I have

465
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 1: been really privileged that way. There are other people who

466
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,160
Speaker 1: have done the same, and I would encourage people never

467
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 1: ever make yourself smaller, or to do work that you

468
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 1: do not think is important, or to silence yourself, because

469
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:36,440
Speaker 1: what I have seen is that when women, particularly silence

470
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 1: themselves so that they can get tenure. When they get tenure,

471
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:42,679
Speaker 1: they do not speak up after that point, and that

472
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: many times they don't achieve what they want to do.

473
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 1: So live your truth loudly every day and boldly, and

474
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 1: you will find a place if that is not your place.

475
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 1: The other thing that I think people don't realize is

476
00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 1: that there are different kinds of academic institution. There are

477
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: research intensive institutions which Dr Moseley and I have worked in,

478
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 1: that have a different set of expectations, and there are

479
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,639
Speaker 1: teaching institutions where you teach more and you have an

480
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 1: opportunity to work more closely with students that don't have

481
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 1: the same research demands. So people really need to kind

482
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: of think about what might be the best fit for

483
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 1: their goals. So I also hear in your question like,

484
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 1: why the heck would anybody want to go into academia

485
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 1: and stay in there? And I guess I feel a

486
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: little bit guarded because I'm like, come, come, Come. But

487
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: to your earlier question that I realized I did not

488
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: respond to, that people should go in with their eyes

489
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 1: wide open. And I feel incredibly privileged now to be

490
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 1: in the field of counseling psychology versus other areas of

491
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,400
Speaker 1: psychology because it allows me to do things that are

492
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: important things related to liberation psychology, where I can talk

493
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 1: about anti racism, and I realized that is not available

494
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 1: in other fields. So if people that are listening are

495
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 1: thinking about and contemplating what program to go into or

496
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: what feel to go into, do your research to think

497
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,400
Speaker 1: about will you be able to be cultivated and nurtured

498
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 1: as a learner you are in the areas that of

499
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 1: our interest for you as a total person. Thank you

500
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: for that, I'm gonna know, Yeah, you definitely heard that

501
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 1: in my question. I didn't necessarily want to esthetic outright,

502
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,479
Speaker 1: but I do think it is so difficult because you do,

503
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,159
Speaker 1: like Dr Moseley said, you are hearing so many sisters

504
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 1: right now talking about leaving academia, right, And I think

505
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: there's something particular. I think it was always tough, but

506
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: I think there's something about the pandemic of course, that

507
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 1: has like accelerated this for people especially. I've also heard

508
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: colleague talk about, you know, like their research like the

509
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: bands on CRT and all of this stuff, and so

510
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: now like the presentations and the work that they were

511
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 1: doing for people who maybe like state on the schools

512
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 1: is even being further scrutini as right, And so I

513
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 1: think there's something about it right now that feels really difficult,

514
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 1: and so I appreciate you putting that into context that

515
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: just going with your eyes wide open and kind of

516
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 1: know what you're getting into. So Dr Mosley, I would

517
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: love to hear a little bit more about Academics for

518
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: Black Survival and Wellness, So I'd love for you to

519
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 1: talk a little bit more. You talked about it being

520
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: started somewhere when I think it was very, very greatly needed,

521
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 1: but it has since continued, and so can you talk

522
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 1: to me a little bit about the growth of the

523
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: program and the theme for this year because it is continuing,

524
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: So tell me a little bit about what's happening. Yes,

525
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: thank you so much for that question. Paris and I,

526
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 1: along with Sunshine Adam, who has been another one of

527
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: the primary organizers of Academics for Black Survival and Wellness,

528
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 1: we came up with it being this year of Pathways

529
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: to Liberated Black Features and have decided that it's going

530
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 1: to be our last run of Academics for Black Lives

531
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: because we came in trying to do this intervention within

532
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 1: academia to see what academics who were finally quote unquot

533
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 1: so woke in this moment around the anti black violence

534
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 1: that's happening everywhere, and they were really alerted to the

535
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 1: ways that it was happening, you know, through police violence,

536
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 1: and we wanted to bring the attention to the way

537
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: that it happens within the academy, and I shared a

538
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 1: lot during that first year about how my own pathway

539
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: to academia was led by or sort of fueled by

540
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 1: a close friend of mine who didn't make it through

541
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: graph school due to anti black racism and the depression

542
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: and pain and suffering that she faced afterwards. And so

543
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 1: it was like, no, this has to stop, and y'all

544
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 1: want to be so woke, yaller in these streets. Y'all

545
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 1: are putting up the Black lives matter science everywhere, but

546
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 1: y'all still acting a fool in these classrooms. Ye are

547
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: still acting a fool in these training sites. You're being

548
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 1: anti black while claiming black lives matter. And so let

549
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: me show you how it manifests in these academic spaces

550
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: and hopes that we can redirect something. And it did.

551
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: I think we did accomplish, that there was change that

552
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 1: was made. I heard from black students afterwards, say, my

553
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 1: professor went through your course twice, and now my experience

554
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: with them is different. I like going to lab now

555
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 1: and I can talk more about things that matter to me,

556
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 1: and I can do the work that matters to me

557
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 1: without having to create a prepresentation to get to the

558
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 1: work that I want to do right, and so there

559
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 1: was some change that happened. This year's Academics with Black

560
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 1: Lives are really gonna be reflecting on how was black

561
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 1: survival and wellness facilitated through this intervention or not who

562
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 1: was bolstered through it. Um I was invited to be

563
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 1: in services expert on a grant funded study that some

564
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: white scholars who were part of Academics for Black Lives

565
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: decided to do as a result of their learning about

566
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: anti blackness through this project. And I'm like, great, y'all

567
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 1: have went through with this project, what's awesome. I'm happy

568
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: to serve as a expert committee for this and I

569
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 1: joined it. And the other white scholars who are on

570
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 1: the grant who didn't go through the program are benefiting

571
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 1: their careers in these major ways while gaining the grant

572
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: funds and CV lines and connections within their professional networks,

573
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 1: while not actually doing anything to better Black folks lives,

574
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 1: Black students lives, and particularly what this grant was written

575
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: up for. And so we're pulling off without and making

576
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: a statement around it. But I believe as I'm looking back,

577
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 1: and you know, I haven't done any studies on it,

578
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 1: and so these are not just anecdotal things. But as

579
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 1: I'm looking back between summer and now, I feel like

580
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 1: there's a lot of non black folks who have used

581
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: anti racism and this learning around anti blackness or whatever

582
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 1: to benefit their own careers, and the experience of black

583
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 1: students in their spaces are still the same or worse.

584
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 1: And so we're going to be grappling with that question

585
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 1: and trying to talk about and really explicate what are

586
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: the pathways to liberated black futures. What do we know

587
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 1: has worked the ones that are inside the system, What

588
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 1: are the labs, what are the universities? What are the

589
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 1: notes and crannies within the system that will help us

590
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 1: to be well and to do the work that we

591
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 1: want to do and get the letters behind our name

592
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 1: that we're aspiring to, or to get the tenure that

593
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 1: we're aspiring to, like, where does that actually exist? And

594
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 1: then also what are the pathways outside of academia and

595
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 1: how can you find them and how can you assess

596
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,040
Speaker 1: whether they'll be good or not for you especially, And

597
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 1: a lot of it is new terrain, like the Wealth

598
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: Healing Center, which I took my lab from the university

599
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 1: turned it into a nonprofit center, and I'm going to

600
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: be doing some of the same mentoring and training and

601
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: teaching that I was doing at the university through this pathway.

602
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: And there's a number of others like that who are

603
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 1: starting to create other initiatives projects centers to get to it.

604
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 1: But then, how do you find the one to the

605
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: right fit for you? How do you assess it in

606
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 1: especially in the absence of accreditation and things like that,

607
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 1: And so hopefully we'll be able to share knowledge and

608
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 1: maybe even start to build a new blueprint for how

609
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 1: we can find those pathways and how we determine what

610
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: is the right pathway for us, while also identifying some

611
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 1: of the ones that we know path work. M M.

612
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: Thank you for then more from my conversation with Dr

613
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: Neville and Dr Mosley after the break. So you brought

614
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 1: up the Radical Healing Collective, and I'd love to hear

615
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 1: from you, Dr Neville, as one of the members of

616
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 1: the Red Coal Healing Collective, what that is about. And

617
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 1: I mean so timely, I mean you all I think

618
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 1: created this several years ago, but it definitely feels like

619
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 1: that radical healing is needed very much now. So can

620
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 1: you tell us more about the Radical Healing Collective. Oh,

621
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you for that question. So the psychology

622
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 1: of Radical Healing Collective really grew out of a presidential

623
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: initiative on promoting wellness through social justice and so I

624
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: don't know two thousand seventeen, two thousand eighteen around there. Um. Well,

625
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,800
Speaker 1: even before that, I was invited to run for president

626
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 1: of a p A Division forty five, which is a

627
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 1: society for the psychological study of Culture, Ethnicity and Race.

628
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 1: And to help out with that the presidential initiative I

629
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 1: put together with I call the Dream Team, and Dr

630
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: Moseley was on the Dream Team and she was one

631
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 1: of the co directors of along with Dr Brianna French

632
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: of this co chairs of the task force and Dr

633
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 1: Hector Adama's, Dr Nili Chevis, Dr Jonny Lewis and Dr

634
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 1: Grace chen So people who are powerhouses in their own right.

635
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 1: And Dr Mosley was a student at the time and

636
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:23,320
Speaker 1: she was co facilitating this and really to think through

637
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: what would this look like and where the team landed

638
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,839
Speaker 1: on is a concept of radical healing. There's people who

639
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: have written within that tradition, like Sean gen Right in education.

640
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 1: But we have folks in psychology, like our current president,

641
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:43,360
Speaker 1: a lact of the American Psychological Association, Dr Tima Bryant Davis,

642
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 1: Dr Lillian Comas Diaz and other people have written within this. Essentially,

643
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 1: what we're talking about is how do we as people

644
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 1: of color become whole in the face of this incredible

645
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 1: amount of racial and other forms of oppression, and what

646
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 1: do we do within our communities and how do we

647
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 1: fight for justice because we know that justice is going

648
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 1: to assist us in liberation and freedom both individual and collective.

649
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 1: So the task Force turned into a collective of just

650
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,799
Speaker 1: like minded scholars who wanted to get the word out

651
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 1: about individual and collective healing. And so we have three

652
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 1: articles out now that to talk about this. Another one

653
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 1: getting ready to be put under review that really is

654
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 1: a qualitative study on radical hope. Specifically, the one article

655
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:42,279
Speaker 1: that Dr French and Gioni Lewis lad that outlines the

656
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,799
Speaker 1: psychology radical healing, and I say this just to show

657
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,240
Speaker 1: you how it's resonating with people, has about forty plus

658
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 1: thousand downloads and views. Because people of color are wanting

659
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 1: a strength based approach to understanding who we are and

660
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 1: our healing that both acknowledges structural oppression and taps into

661
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 1: and acknowledges our cultural strengths. Are wanting to experience joy,

662
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 1: are wanting to be authentic and show up authentically in

663
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 1: this world. And so we are just a group of

664
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 1: scholars committed to trying to foster and develop this through

665
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: scholarship and workshops. And we've got a blog that we

666
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 1: have and other kinds of things. Such exciting work. And

667
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 1: I think that is the kind of work that you know,

668
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 1: when you talked about earlier, Dr Wilsey, right, like when

669
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: you see that being done in academia is really exciting, right.

670
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:35,840
Speaker 1: I think it's important to think about, you know, like

671
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 1: that this battle is like fought on lots of different areas, right,

672
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 1: So some of it is happening in academia, and some

673
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 1: of it is happening in the Wilson are right, and

674
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 1: so multiple different spaces where we're having these conversations. I

675
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 1: think is really would kind of moves everything forward. So

676
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 1: I'm very excited about the work, very excited that it

677
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,720
Speaker 1: has been downloaded that many times, the Radical Healing Paper,

678
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: because I think it's important and I do think especially

679
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 1: for the field, it gives us a different framework for

680
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 1: talking about like this moment in particular, but like what

681
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 1: happens as we move forward as well. So I'd love

682
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 1: to hear from both of you as we prepare to

683
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 1: close up. What words of advice or wisdom would you

684
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: share for other black women who are considering academia, currently

685
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:22,479
Speaker 1: in academia, considering leaving academia, what kinds of things would

686
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 1: you want to share with them? I'll go ahead and start.

687
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 1: The first is that black woman's sisterhood is strong and alive,

688
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 1: and you can rely on that for your entire journey

689
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 1: wherever your pathway will take you. So to trust that.

690
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:46,359
Speaker 1: The second is, squad up, create your village. Whatever you're

691
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:50,320
Speaker 1: gonna need. It's going to take a village to nurture

692
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 1: and cultivate you, and that you can belong to. So

693
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 1: these are people that were going to be mentors in

694
00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 1: your village, peer mentors, colleagues, other folks you want to

695
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: come along with you. I think those things are important.

696
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:08,760
Speaker 1: The next one is that you are enough, You are strong,

697
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 1: You belong and you can be vulnerable in that strength,

698
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 1: and you belong in whatever space you decide to be.

699
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 1: I think that is critical. And the last one is

700
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 1: that you also have a responsibility to other people to

701
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,320
Speaker 1: not only be who you are your success and trust

702
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 1: in that, but you have a responsibility to be in

703
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:35,320
Speaker 1: community with people to make things better for yourself in

704
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 1: the environment, for your community. We have responsibilities to give

705
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 1: back because our ancestors have done that for us, and

706
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 1: we need to do that for the people who come

707
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 1: after us. Fire. I wanted to share and we can

708
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:53,320
Speaker 1: do whatever we want, and that after sharing that, I

709
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 1: left the university, I've been getting a lot of d

710
00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:01,320
Speaker 1: MS or emails or messages from folks who are congratulating

711
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,280
Speaker 1: me and looking at me as a model of who's

712
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 1: like who's made it by making it out of the academy.

713
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 1: And I have a hard time when I received that

714
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 1: because I want the academy to be able to be

715
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 1: for us. And I don't have any regrets about getting

716
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 1: my degree and all the fights that I did throughout

717
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 1: my doc program to get that degree, and I don't

718
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 1: have any regrets about pursuing the tenure track, and I

719
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,320
Speaker 1: don't want people to feel like it's not an option

720
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 1: for them. I want black women and to know that

721
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 1: like we can have whatever we want and that we

722
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 1: deserve to be in these spaces and that we also

723
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 1: deserve to have our wellness. And so I think my

724
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 1: advice or invitation or hope is that we're able to

725
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 1: be in a constant assessment process of our wellness and

726
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 1: able to really tell the places and spaces that will

727
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 1: help us to get closer to it and know that

728
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 1: we are resilient. We are so resilient. So if you

729
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 1: have to fight and not be as emotionally well or

730
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 1: socially well while you navigate and academic space in order

731
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 1: to make it through that space so that you can

732
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:14,320
Speaker 1: be more spiritually well, financially well, etcetera. Later, do the

733
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 1: calculations that you need to do to make that decision

734
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 1: about what's right for you. I think it's important to

735
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 1: like recall and you can go back to the raval

736
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 1: Hoop model and radical healing is really important to think

737
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 1: about what we have survived, what we can do, what

738
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 1: we have done, and so I need us to remember

739
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 1: that we can get through, and that we can go through.

740
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:33,320
Speaker 1: We can get the degrees, we can get the tenure

741
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:35,719
Speaker 1: if that's what we want, and at the same time

742
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 1: we can be constantly assessing where else we can get

743
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 1: social support and where else we can get the training

744
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 1: and the tools that we need if they're not coming

745
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 1: from those spaces, where we can heal the wounds of

746
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 1: racial trauma that are happening while we are in these spaces,

747
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 1: and who can we strategize with to create something different,

748
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 1: whether it's inside or outside of academia. And so yeah,

749
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:58,759
Speaker 1: we're really of wellness and constantly be assessing where you

750
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 1: can get it from and decide when and where you

751
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 1: want to make the sacrifices. Thank you for the Dr Wilson.

752
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:07,760
Speaker 1: You know, I just wanted to follow up on another

753
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 1: question because you talked about creating the Will Center as

754
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 1: like this is my thing now, like this is what

755
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 1: I want to do. You and I have had conversations

756
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 1: in the past about like loving training right and wanting

757
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,879
Speaker 1: to continue to provide trainee options and at some point

758
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 1: can we have a post doctor through therapy for black

759
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 1: girls through the Will Center, right? And I just love

760
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 1: to hear because I I think a part of it

761
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 1: is that it feels difficult, Like you mentioned like the

762
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 1: resources that the academy has, right, like the research and

763
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 1: you know all of these things. Have you seen other

764
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:42,800
Speaker 1: pathways for not necessarily accreditation, but maybe some kind of

765
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 1: accreditation or places where you can go to get resources

766
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 1: for these like alternative centers that people may be creating

767
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 1: still in the psychology space, but not in academia. Oh

768
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 1: I wish I could say yes. Unfortunately No, I'm in

769
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:02,320
Speaker 1: the stage now of I've been bootstrapping and fundraising and

770
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: really navigating relationships and expanding the networks that have been

771
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 1: supporting the projects for black wellness or the projects focused

772
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 1: on racial trauma. So trying to identify the folks who

773
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 1: are doing that work and giving those funds to the

774
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 1: university to see who they might support outside of the university.

775
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:26,800
Speaker 1: But it's hard and it's slower, and I think we

776
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 1: need to draw attention to this and call for more

777
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,399
Speaker 1: support in this area for the folks who are creating

778
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:34,360
Speaker 1: new pathways outside of academia. I hope that we won't

779
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:39,760
Speaker 1: be forced or pushed towards recreating an academic system outside

780
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:44,279
Speaker 1: of academias. So having accreditations that are still upheld by

781
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:49,439
Speaker 1: white supremacy, anti blackness, sexism, heterosexism, able ism, and there's

782
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 1: no bodies out there that will do accreditation that holds

783
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 1: that kind of that inclusive value and so I think

784
00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:00,360
Speaker 1: we have to develop it, and there are some folks

785
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 1: who we can look at in other fields or disciplines.

786
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 1: I think about like what Rachel Cargo has done with

787
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 1: the Great Unlearned and the quality of training that gets

788
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 1: offered and the way that they vet that. I don't

789
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 1: know the root rick, but I think if there's a

790
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 1: bunch of folks who are doing that work or who

791
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 1: have done it over the last several years, who have

792
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 1: a level of quality and who can sort of show

793
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 1: some receipts for the impact of their trainings of their work,

794
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 1: I think we can come up with ways that are

795
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 1: outside of that white supremacy but still provides some some

796
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,319
Speaker 1: greater sense of like trustworthiness to the audiences who will

797
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 1: be coming to us for training. But we don't have it.

798
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 1: So we don't have the funding that would support us

799
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 1: to really understand more about that, Nor do we have

800
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 1: the systems that will like give that vouch yet, and

801
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 1: nor do I think we necessarily need those. We're in

802
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:53,239
Speaker 1: a baby stage and it's exciting to be here, and

803
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 1: I hope this is spoat up with you and others

804
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:59,359
Speaker 1: who want to continue to play with the pathways into Yeah,

805
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 1: the rated pathways. Mm hmmm, So tell us where we

806
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 1: can stay connected to you and your work. Dr Mosley,

807
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 1: what's your website as well as any social media handles

808
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:12,120
Speaker 1: you'd like to share? Yes, please check out my website

809
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:15,759
Speaker 1: Della vi Mosley dot com or wells Healing dot com

810
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 1: or my new baby black feminist place space blam healing

811
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,759
Speaker 1: dot com. And on social media, I'm on Instagram at

812
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 1: d v Mosley m mos L e y and I'm

813
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 1: on Twitter at Della Vie Moseley And actually that was

814
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 1: wells Healing dot org, Delavi Mosley dot com, blam healing

815
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:38,880
Speaker 1: dot com. Thank you so much, Actor Joy. This has

816
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 1: been such a pleasure. Thank you Dr Mosley and Dr Neville.

817
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 1: Where can we stay connected with you? I think on

818
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 1: Twitter Helen Neville one too. I think that's the best place.

819
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 1: And thank you so much. This has been filled my

820
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 1: heart to spend some time speaking with you, Dr Joy

821
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 1: and of course with you Dr Mosli. Thank you, Dr Nevill.

822
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:04,400
Speaker 1: Such a pleasure. Thank you for being here, both of you.

823
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 1: I'm so glad Dr Nevill and Dr Mosley were able

824
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:12,279
Speaker 1: to join me this week. To learn more about them

825
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 1: and their work. Visit the show notes at Therapy for

826
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 1: Black Girls dot com slash session to seventy three, and

827
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 1: don't forget to text two of your girls and tell

828
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 1: them to check out the episode right now. If you're

829
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 1: looking for a therapist in your area, check out our

830
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 1: therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory.

831
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 1: And if you want to continue to get into this

832
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:34,919
Speaker 1: topic or just be in community with other sisters, come

833
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:37,239
Speaker 1: on over and join us in the Sister Circle. It's

834
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 1: our cozy corner of the Internet design just for black women.

835
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:42,919
Speaker 1: You can join us at community dot Therapy for Black

836
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 1: Girls dot com. This episode was produced by Freda Lucas

837
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: and Alice Ellis and editing was done by Dennis and Bradford.

838
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:53,399
Speaker 1: Thank you all so much for joining me again this week.

839
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 1: I look forward to continue in this conversation with you

840
00:46:56,200 --> 00:47:02,399
Speaker 1: all real soon. Take it care, the best, past, the best,

841
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 1: the best wood