WEBVTT - Wine Fraud and Wine Scams 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:04.720 Really now really. 0:00:06.760 --> 0:00:11.479 Really now really Hello, and welcome to Really Know Really 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:15.160 with Jason Alexander and Peter Tilden, the number one podcast 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:18.239 in America thinks it would be just great if you 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:21.440 subscribe to this one. In this episode, you'll learn. 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:25.320 About one of the world's biggest wine frauds who sold 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:29.880 twelve thousand bottles of fake wine. Really no, really, You'll 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:33.879 learn about the secretive black market for wine, the correct 0:00:33.880 --> 0:00:37.400 way to taste and authenticate wine, at how wine and 0:00:37.680 --> 0:00:41.520 organized crime goes together, like Shabilee and Brie, and now 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:44.200 here are two guys who go together like Vanilla and Kale. 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:49.839 Jason Alexander and Peter Tilden Now Really, really. 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:52.560 Stu, I why do I always start? You start this one? 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:54.360 By the way, you should leave that in if he's 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:55.760 saying you start, what I always start? 0:00:56.640 --> 0:00:58.520 I always do. I always start because you always say 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:00.800 to me, come out of the show on the start 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:03.760 of the show. I've never said that. I've never said that. 0:01:03.800 --> 0:01:06.760 Do you feel it? Yes, but I would saying that's 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:09.600 weird exactly. So here we go. I'll do you, I'll 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:10.959 do you. Here go, ready, Laurie. 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:13.640 Here's how Jason starts every episode. We have a very 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:17.600 special episode today. This is special And I go why, 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:20.000 and you go, I don't know, but I like calling 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:20.280 it that. 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:22.800 You know, you make up crap about me all the time, 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:26.240 A I've never said that. I'm still reeling because you 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:29.960 put out to America that I'm an underwhelming driver and and. 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:32.760 Wow, that was some episode. 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:39.440 I'm still hurt by that. I'm still all right, all right, fantasies. 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:42.039 Around, Wow like a person. 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:48.960 So this episode, you know, really there was another incident 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:50.040 of wine fraud. 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:51.440 And I have been. 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:54.120 Fascinated with wine frauds since I saw the movie Sara 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:57.280 Grapes Yes, which was about the huge wine fraud that 0:01:57.400 --> 0:01:58.080 was exposed. 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:00.320 Not to be confused, by the way, not the Larry 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:01.960 Davis right. 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:04.240 This was one where there's a wine fraud and that 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:07.040 one of the Koch brothers was scammed and he hired 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:10.480 a private investigator and they found out that this guy 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:13.920 was doing his own wines and I think was twenty million, 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:17.440 thirty million dollars. Auction houses didn't catch it. It was amazing. 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:19.959 So with it yet another wine fraud, we wanted to 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:24.079 have on somebody who could kind of tell us what 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:26.919 that world is about and why this fraud happened so often, 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:30.919 and when you look up this person, they're it Marine 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:34.120 Downey over is it over twenty years experience at this point, yes, 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:37.480 over twenty years experience stands out as an independent expert 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:41.320 on finding real wine, the foremost authority on counterfeit. And 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:43.680 your name does come. It's like you're it. You're You're 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:45.960 the big Kohona and this thing they call you the 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:49.280 Sherlock Loans of Wine. One of the fifty most powerful 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:53.399 women and wine. She specializes in on authentication and valuation. 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:57.720 You have inspected hundreds of millions of dollars worth of 0:02:57.760 --> 0:03:01.840 wine and you advise the top collectors that sat among. 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:07.200 A graduate of Boston University that you know, we're many 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:08.000 people in my arms. 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:10.360 I got nothing, I got no trials, know nothing, Grand Sea. 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:11.119 Welcome to the show. 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:12.359 Thanks so much for having me. 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:14.120 All right, so we got to ask about the wine 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:15.959 for it. So what Tower Grapes was about? What's the 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:16.960 guy's named Karna. 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:18.440 Rudy Curnea one, Okay. 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:21.160 So my question about that and other things that we'll 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:25.200 get to that that are baffling about the credibility of 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:29.480 wine and the pricing of wine. That was a giant fraud, 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:32.200 like twenty million dollars worth or more more? 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:33.000 No much, how much? 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:36.280 So the restitution and I did the reports for the 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:39.880 DOJ that set most of the restitution. But he owns 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:43.200 over twenty eight million dollars in restitution. But he sold 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:45.880 at least one hundred million dollars worth of counterfeit wine. 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:48.680 So my question is at the time, say that's worth 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:50.600 like you know, ten times that today. 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:55.080 So here's my question underlying that, with all the experts 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:57.560 and the somalier's and the people who can describe wine, 0:03:58.200 --> 0:03:59.440 no expert picked us up. 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:00.360 That's not true. 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:01.080 Oh it's not true. 0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:04.760 I thought that it was starting research, go to researching. 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:04.960 Starting and shut up. 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:08.600 I was a friend of Rudy and the guys at 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:11.160 Acker and you know, there was a small group of 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:13.640 us in our twenties. But by two thousand and two 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:17.520 I was running the wine auction new auction house at Zaki's, 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:20.480 and Rudy decided that he wanted to be a player 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:24.320 and he tried to sell some wine with me. Now, 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:28.360 one of the things that always baffled me was that 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:31.159 if if a kid were to walk into an auction 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:34.160 house with millions of dollars worth of jewelry. The auction 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:36.320 house would be like, all right, prove to us that 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:38.400 you want it. Where'd you buy it? And he never 0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:41.640 claimed that. Like, his parents were major collectors and this 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:45.440 was their collection, so he had to have bought the wine, right, 0:04:45.560 --> 0:04:47.840 So when he tried to sell this wine with us 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:50.360 at Zakis, I said, okay, show many receipts, and he 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:52.520 couldn't come up with a receipt. So a couple of 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:55.480 years later, you know, he's selling thirty four million dollars 0:04:55.279 --> 0:05:00.120 in one two pre piece auction and I'm like, I 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:04.800 is nobody in the world asking questions. The somoliers in 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:07.680 New York, some of them who one of whom is 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:11.120 a huge part of this story, worked with me at Zaki's. 0:05:11.400 --> 0:05:14.039 He knew Rudy was a crook, and for some reason 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:16.440 all these guys went from like doing the right thing 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:19.359 to wanting to be part of the party. There was 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:22.840 way too much money and way too little education, and 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:25.520 these guys all wanted to believe and it was Peter 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:30.039 Pan in a bottle. It was also it was lots 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:32.360 of drugs, It was lots of hookers, like. 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:34.760 It is this is the Wolf of wine Street. 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:36.960 It is one hundred percent. 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:37.600 Wow. 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:39.640 Yeah, yeah, So they were all a lot of people 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:42.160 were all in because they were benefiting in a big way. 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:44.359 I said that Rudy was doing this. In two thousand 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:47.320 and two, Bill Koch had had a suit, so I 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:50.120 started working with Bill's investigators at OA and with the 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:54.039 FBI and OA. Did nobody know. Of course they knew. 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:57.039 We knew in two thousand and two. We knew that 0:05:56.839 --> 0:05:58.839 the guys at the auction house where he sold the 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:03.920 wine were chandelier bidding and putting fake underbids in their book. 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:06.760 It was an open secret. So and you know, don't 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:10.200 talk to me about some lia's like really, some lias 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:13.719 do not. Because you study wine does not mean that 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:17.640 you know how to authenticate old and rare bottles. And 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:20.000 even if you do know about old and rare wine, 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:23.120 if you were to take a case of bottles and 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:26.360 put them in a cellar in perfect condition, twelve bottles, 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:28.880 and come back to them fifty years later, they're all 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:32.080 going to be totally different. Think of triplets, Separate triplets 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:35.320 at birth, right, bring them back when they're sixty years old. 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:38.640 They're not gonna all a lot in common, right, So 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:40.800 anybody that's like, oh, well, I can tell that that's 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:42.160 counterfeit because I tasted it. 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:47.280 There's no way. Yeah, yeah, well I love you. I'm 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:49.720 like you, I'm laughing because there was I'm praying. You 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:52.440 know all these stories, but I wanted to prepare. So 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:53.640 Boss is our restaurant. 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:56.000 I read that there was an incident in two thousand 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:59.640 and whatever and two I think we're a table full 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:03.280 of ex executives wine connoisseurs ordered a bottle, and at 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:05.880 another table was a couple of celebrating like the first anniversary, 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:07.720 and they ordered the cheapest bottle, which is called those 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:11.560 twelve dollars a bottle, and the restaurant accidentally mixed them up. 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:15.280 And the table of course that got the twelve dollar bottle, 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:19.560 which was expecting this two thousand dollars I don't remember 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:22.400 what it was. Well they you know, it has this, 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:24.160 and it has a mouthfeel and it has a do 0:07:25.440 --> 0:07:27.840 And then when they pointed it out to the table, 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:29.600 to the table, we've made a harble mistake. 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:32.360 The head of the party went, you know, I knew, 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:33.440 I knew something. 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:37.120 Understand the story to begin with, if I've ordered a 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:40.160 two thousand dollars bottle of wine. They don't bring the 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:43.600 wine to the table, so I know Fleischmann's wine right 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:47.280 from what they just what the guy pouring go. I 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:49.280 assume this is from the two thousand dollars bottle. I 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:50.000 don't understand that. 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:53.280 I don't know hould that doesn't make any sense to me. 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:54.920 I mean, if I'm going to order an expensive bottle, 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:56.760 bring it over to the table, open it at the table, 0:07:56.800 --> 0:07:58.720 pour it at the table. Yeah, I don't want any 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:01.440 because I know the Shenanigans can happen right like that. 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:04.720 You know, hey, but God blessed the twelve dollars bottle people. 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:10.200 A big fancy some shape and go over to the 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:13.480 couple that knows he can see they're ordering you know, 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:16.679 a la cards and he's opening two thousand dollars bottle 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:19.680 of wine with and not questioning this whole thing, This 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:22.320 whole story is me just so we're. 0:08:22.200 --> 0:08:24.560 About to test when they do, like the one test 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:27.440 where they send three the same bottles of wine to 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:30.920 be graded and one was not acceptable and one was great, 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:32.760 and one was and it was the same wine. 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:36.520 So I'm a wine judge. I do like the International 0:08:36.559 --> 0:08:39.240 Wine Challenge in London and text them and a couple 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:43.240 other ones, and that can happen where one panel will 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:45.160 throw a wine out and say it's no good, and 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:47.920 another panel will give it a gold. So a lot 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:50.120 of it has to do with the mood you're in, 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:52.520 who you're with. You know, if you're tasting with a 0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:55.000 bunch of people that are duds or you can't stand them, 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:58.160 or one of them is you know, annoying you or whatever, 0:08:58.600 --> 0:09:01.600 you can decide that that wine isn't good and another 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:04.800 team who's getting along great is great. Like if they're 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:08.520 playing jazz, my scores go down. You know, if they're 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:11.679 playing like nineteen eighties alternative, my scores go way. 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:15.280 Can I just say, okay, you know what. I'm so happy? 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:18.520 I mean too, because I went from I'm gonna have 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:21.679 nothing to talk to this woman about because I'm one 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:22.280 of those people. 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:22.920 I A. 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:27.040 I'm not a drinker. B. I can taste nothing. You 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:29.600 give me a glass of wine, I'll go either it 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:32.400 has a fruity quality or a dry quality. And people 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:34.120 are talking about I taste this, I taste that. 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:34.360 I go. 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:36.920 I taste maybe a grape and a lot of alcohol. 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:43.240 To me, this is all a fesso. This whole the tasting, 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:45.320 and these people that go, yes, I taste the oak, 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:48.200 I taste the thing. I was in a I was 0:09:48.200 --> 0:09:49.600 in Israel. I know, we're going to talk a little 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:52.400 bit about the Israeli wineries, but years ago, and I 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:54.920 was with a gentleman, an actor who was in the 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:57.840 wine business as well. And we're in this wonderful in 0:09:57.880 --> 0:09:59.800 the middle of the desert, this winery, and he's got 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:02.679 glasses and we're all tasting, and I can't taste of God. 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:05.440 And he's tasting. How I tell oh, I taste the Uh. 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:08.240 There's a hint of cherry in this, And I think 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:11.560 this must have been in a an oak cast because 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:14.040 I'm getting some oak and he's going from glass to glass. 0:10:14.160 --> 0:10:16.000 And on the fourth one, I go, can I take 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:20.800 this one? I'm getting a rattlesnake. And I think Shlomo 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:24.160 may have urinated on this vine a week or cer. 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:25.800 Yeah, And they're. 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:28.000 All laughing, and I'm going, but that's I might as 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:29.359 well be talking the truth. 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:32.280 Realistically, so you can study it. It is a language. 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:34.760 I've been studying wine since I was eighteen, you know, 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:36.640 I studied for the Master of Wine, and in the 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:38.560 Master of Wine You need to be able to taste 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:42.160 not only what great variety or blend where it's from, 0:10:42.760 --> 0:10:44.560 you know, the vintage, the soil that it's grown in, 0:10:44.600 --> 0:10:47.960 but you need to say at what temperature it was fermented? No, yeah, 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:50.000 in what kind of vessel it was fermented? And for 0:10:50.040 --> 0:10:52.840 how long? You can do it? It takes a long time, 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:54.920 but you can do it. No, but dudes on Wall 0:10:54.960 --> 0:10:56.920 Street can't do that. When they're roice. 0:10:57.160 --> 0:11:02.640 You can say this dry ariage soil, it was it 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:05.520 was it was. 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:09.320 It just it was fermented in the bobo. Yeah. 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:11.040 I mean so like a lot of so many blancs 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:13.839 that are really have like really high acid and really 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:18.760 primary flavors, those have been fermented in a neutral vessel, 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:22.640 so concrete or steel at a cold temperature with highly 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:27.160 rectified yeast strains. It does it actually pretty good? 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:28.080 At Wow? 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:32.640 Can I just say something. I'm guessing it takes a 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:35.480 hell of a lot to get this woman drunk. Well, 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:38.600 I'm thinking she can hold a couple of. 0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:45.520 Spit, right, I am irish. No, you do have to 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:47.800 spit and and and and you got to drink a 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:50.679 lot of water. And but you know, I want to 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:52.520 go back to something you can tell the difference even 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:54.679 if you're not a drinker. Somebody who is a Coca 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:56.280 Cola drinker, if you give them a pepsi, they're going 0:11:56.320 --> 0:12:00.480 to be like w T right. So even if you think, oh, 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:03.319 I can't taste you know, like my father used to 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:05.520 always say, oh I can't taste wine. I put two 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:07.000 glasses of wine in front of him every time he 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:10.120 would go to the best one. Really really, so even 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:12.400 though you don't think you can, I think it's more 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:16.320 about learning the language of being able to wine taste palate. 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:19.400 But then again again one after the other, where you say, 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:22.959 when they show price tags, the price tag affects how 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:24.840 they taste the wine, that this is a better wine 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:26.959 because it's got a higher price tag. So the assumption 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:29.760 is that, because I read in preparing for this, that 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:32.319 there's so many things people say they taste, but even 0:12:32.400 --> 0:12:35.520 the best palate cannot taste more than three or four 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:36.840 things that don't wind, that. 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:40.640 That's impossible because well, so I have allergy. I'm actually 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:43.560 allergic to alcohol. I learned this during the MW War. 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:45.760 I know, so I have to blow my nose like crazy. 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:49.840 I'm like, sorry, everyone, but I taste tactilely. So a 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:53.559 lot of my perception comes from tactile So like when 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:56.800 you think of the difference between milk, thig of cream, 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:01.719 milk and water, right, you can automatically know exactly what 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:05.120 I'm talking about that there's just different feelings. And then 0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:07.240 you just think of different textures. It's difference between silk 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:10.080 and burlap, and those are ways that I would describe tannin. 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:13.040 So you know, the the way that you that you 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:16.760 approach tasting wine isn't just about the roses and the 0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:20.760 flowers and you know, oh, I fawn ran through the 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:24.079 field after the dew. You know, it's not really that 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:27.000 it is actually finding different things. But there have to 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:29.480 be more than three or four because you've got aromas 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:34.240 which exist, these arresters you have. You know, acid makes 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:39.520 you salivate. Tannin pulls the saliva literally from your gums 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:43.360 and dries your mouth out. Alcohol burns your mucous membranes, 0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:48.400 and you can perceive salty, bitter, sweet, sugar weighs heavier 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:51.840 on your palate. So I mean, right there, just tactilely, 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:53.040 you've got more than three or four. 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:57.800 So God, if you bs, you're so good, you're so good. 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:01.000 I mean it is. It's fascinating to hear. 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:02.840 Do you go to a restaurant and watch people do 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:05.000 stuff and go this is such a bull Look at 0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:07.200 table light, I mean where they're doing their whole deal. 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:10.040 When people smell corks, I always laugh, like, why are 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:12.560 they gonna smell the cork? Smell of wine? What's the cork? 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:15.679 Smell the cork? You don't. 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:17.920 Because you don't know what? 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:19.920 Okay, what else? Give me other things? People do that 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:24.320 to show off. That's all nonsense. God, I love that. 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:27.080 And the next time somebody with a cork, I'm gonna 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:31.920 go smell the wine. You don't get phot or spinks exactly. 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:33.800 You can feel the cork and see, you know, if 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:36.880 it's too hard or too soft, But don't smell the cork. 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:37.920 What are you gonna eat the cork? 0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:39.960 Right? Thummest thing I ever saw. 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:42.920 Oh. I just think that. 0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:46.080 People who wax and wane too poetic or sit there 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:48.040 and spend too much time like, yeah, enjoy your wine, 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:49.200 but shut up. 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:51.760 Just drink it the beverage. Yeah, so I know. 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:53.720 I looked up terms, Jason, to these real terms, and 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:56.080 you say, if they're real terms, are not youthful. 0:14:56.160 --> 0:15:01.760 A youthful warm, yes, yes, Oh mommy, oh mommy is 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:05.000 when it applies to wine. Who mommy is supposed to 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:08.200 be about like a sort of a meaty flavor, exactly. 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:11.000 I can't imagine it applies to wine. 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:17.720 You want a meaty flavor, you do. You're a little 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:22.200 bit of a freak. I can see drinks a lot 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:24.360 and never gets drunk and likes leather and a wine. 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:30.320 You know, I don't know. Salmon, salmon, it's a color. Oh, 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:32.480 I feel like this is all. Don't touch me, don't 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:37.360 hit me, don't hit me. Velvety, velvety. I've heard yes, nutty. 0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:40.080 Now do you have all intense? Sure? 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:43.520 Jammy, Jammy, jammy. That's what I put on one night 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:44.120 taste Moto. 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:48.800 Yeah. A lot of New World wine is jammy and 0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:51.320 fruit fruit Uh huh. 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:56.160 Tempting is a descriptor tempting, I guess cerebral. 0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:59.080 Cerebral they call wine if. 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:01.960 You call wine cell that's like, this really sucks. But 0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:04.360 I have to think about it a lot, trying to 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:05.360 find something nice to say. 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:07.400 Yeah, contemplate same thing. 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:12.520 Well, and you're a winemaker and somebody's like your wine 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:14.200 is very cerebral like I don't want you to be 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:16.280 I want you to see it's a delicious. 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:17.840 I ask you a question, how much time could you 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:18.840 spend on this computient? 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:21.120 No, I just wanted because these were one on one 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:23.680 site and you pull it off. This is this is ridiculous. 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:36.080 You know, were you drunk and you know? So? I 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:37.360 was watching a little bit of. 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:41.680 Bill Koch was being interviewed by this and that was 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.280 about the Thomas Jefferson bottles of the Foe. 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:48.040 Yeah, but if I had, they're all faux. By the way, 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:49.360 there's no real Thomas Jefferson. 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:56.200 Okay, is there a bottle of wine from that year 0:16:56.400 --> 0:17:01.120 that if I opened it today would taste the way 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:04.800 you wanted? I mean, I mean gross. You would never 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:07.560 drink a bottle of wine that what's like? So the 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:10.040 cut off more than x years. 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:12.040 Don't drink it. Just look at it as a piece 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:12.520 of history. 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:14.680 So if there happened to be somebody who was working 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:17.080 on the show who could google things, maybe they might 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:19.560 be able to lock this up. But there was a 0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:23.359 there was some ancient wine that was found in the 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:26.320 Middle East and it had been topped with olive oil, 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:29.080 because that's what they used to use right before corks 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:32.040 because olive oil keeps the oxygen out. And then they 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:36.479 tested the liquid and it was still safe to consume, right, 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:37.960 but it was nasty. 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:40.680 Oh that But so is that basically with the Bill 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:43.280 with a Coke brother? Is that? Is that? Is that 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:44.000 because there. 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:48.120 Are Bill's brothers, So Bill has the when you talk 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:50.520 about the Coke brothers, yeah, those are his two brothers, 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:51.439 Bills separate. 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:54.240 So when you talk about, okay, the coke from the 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:57.680 movie Coke, is that basically just so you can say 0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:00.560 I have this bottle that It's not about asumption, it's 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:01.879 about historical history. 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:04.720 Right. So here's a really interesting thing about counterfeit. So 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:07.520 prior to Rudy Creneawan, there was a very famous counterfeiter 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:10.920 named Hardy Rodenstock. And Hardy Rodenstock was big in the 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:13.960 eighties and the nineties. So he's where I learned about counterfeits. 0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:18.879 Pardy Rodenstock made counterfeits that were not only to counterfeit wine, 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:23.600 but they were all important years, you know, like eighteen 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:27.480 sixty four, eighteen sixty five, and the Revolutionary War, the 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:30.240 year that Abraham Lincoln. So somebody like a Bill Coch 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:34.720 who collected wine and Americana is going to go for 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:39.879 those kinds of years. So when I teach people about 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:43.880 how to authenticate, these important years for the world are 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:47.960 something that you look for. Somebody Sotherby's or Christie's did 0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:51.480 a big spent a lot of money and established the 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:54.960 people who collect wine are the most likely to collect 0:18:54.960 --> 0:18:58.320 something else, at least something else. So people who collect 0:18:58.320 --> 0:19:00.720 wine rarely only electric. 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:02.919 Artur're doing historical, historical stuff. Wow. 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:07.840 Right, So Bill Cooke is collecting Americana. So for him 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:11.280 that was part of Americana and it was realized because 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:14.679 his Americana was going to the Elizabeth Gardner Museum in 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:18.399 Boston and they're the ones that fact checked it. But 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:19.920 it was interesting. I'd been trying to get a hold 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:23.359 of him since two thousand and six for Rudy crniha 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:25.200 wand bottles that he bought that I that I knew 0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:28.320 were just fake as could be so and he never 0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:32.280 responted no, but I ended up testifying about them in 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:33.080 court for him. 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:35.920 So when you're looking at the bottle of wine, whether 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:38.880 it's historic bs or whether it's a real date from 0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:43.439 way back, did you do authentication of the label the bottle, 0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:45.400 how bottles were made at that point, where they were 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:46.160