Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Did Cool Stuff, the
Speaker 2: show where you don't get to be the one who
Speaker 2: decides what's cool. Instead, I the host, Margaret Kiljoy decide
Speaker 2: what's cool, which is a strange irony, but there's no
Speaker 2: way around it because no one can start podcasts because
Speaker 2: it's illegal and the law and morality are identical. Our
Speaker 2: guest today is Jamie Loftus.
Speaker 3: Hi, Jamie Hi, Margaret, dude to my status is starting
Speaker 3: a podcast.
Speaker 1: I am currently considered a fugitive.
Speaker 3: That's true, but I think but I think it's actually
Speaker 3: I think it's it's worth it to get my little
Speaker 3: ideas out into the world.
Speaker 2: When podcasts are outlawed, only outlaws of podcast.
Speaker 1: Me and Dex Shepherd against the world.
Speaker 2: That's right. That's why we're all going to get the vests.
Speaker 2: But we're not going to tell you what I mean
Speaker 2: by that. Instead, I'm going to introduce the producer, Sophie.
Speaker 2: That's me, Matron of Crime. I'll take it okay and
Speaker 2: are well now. I just feel bad saying the names
Speaker 2: of everyone involved because they're all doing crime. But Ian
Speaker 2: is our audio engineer, and everyone is to say Hi, Ian, Hi, Ian, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Hi, Ian, sorry about your recent breaking the law by
Speaker 1: participating in this evil empire.
Speaker 3: Oh Jamie, you know you're my partner in crime and
Speaker 3: that you're the mastermind.
Speaker 2: What are you talking about?
Speaker 1: It's true?
Speaker 2: What are you jeer?
Speaker 1: Behind them?
Speaker 2: Yeah, behind all producers. Yes, the theme music was written
Speaker 2: for us by someone who will not be named lest
Speaker 2: unwoman get in trouble.
Speaker 1: And it worked.
Speaker 2: Thanks proud of that one. Today is part two of
Speaker 2: a two parter, which is the first time that's ever happened,
Speaker 2: not the ninety eighth time that's ever happened in part one. Okay,
Speaker 2: this time we're talking about Negro for it, which was
Speaker 2: a really amazing maroon community in Florida when it was
Speaker 2: Spanish Florida that the US went and fucked up. In
Speaker 2: part one, I talked about how a ton of indigenous
Speaker 2: folks were real mad at the Americans. Right now I
Speaker 2: want to talk about what had beens just stolen from them,
Speaker 2: which is to say, I get to talk about everyone's
Speaker 2: favorite person, Andrew Jackson. Yeah. If you ever meet someone
Speaker 2: who thinks that Andrew Jackson is a good person, then
Speaker 2: you have met a bad person, or at best, a
Speaker 2: terribly badly informed person.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say, don't waste your time trying to
Speaker 3: fix them unless I.
Speaker 1: Know, you know, you've only we've only got so much time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's and if it's like your best friend, no,
Speaker 2: if it's your dad, I don't know whatever. Andrew Jackson
Speaker 2: before the War of eighteen twelve, no one really knew
Speaker 2: him outside of Tennessee. He grew up a backwoods guy.
Speaker 2: He wasn't actually poor. He later inherited two hundred acres,
Speaker 2: but he grew up backwoods along the North and South
Speaker 2: Carolina border shortly before the Revolutionary War, and he grew
Speaker 2: up hating Indigenous people and British people. And this was
Speaker 2: like his main thing, and like stop clock on the
Speaker 2: British thing. But you know whatever. The Revolutionary War had
Speaker 2: killed his mother, his only parent, and two of his brothers,
Speaker 2: so he was really into hating the British. He also
Speaker 2: hated Indigenous people because he was a racist piece of
Speaker 2: shit dick. He quickly left the backwoods and became a
Speaker 2: Southern gentleman, which of course meant buying and selling people.
Speaker 2: Right come the War of eighteen twelve, he was like,
Speaker 2: let's go kill the Brittain Indians, capture Florida wooo, and
Speaker 2: that was that was his war crime. In eighteen thirteen,
Speaker 2: the Muskogee had what was called the Creek Civil War
Speaker 2: because they were mostly called the Creek. On one side,
Speaker 2: you have the Americanized folks who were, you know, had
Speaker 2: just been like they've been like doing the more settled thing.
Speaker 2: They're starting to grow, build plantations, They're really into the
Speaker 2: chattel slavery thing. On the other side, you had the
Speaker 2: Red Sticks who were like, yeah, fuck all that, and
Speaker 2: they would attack forts and kill everyone there except the
Speaker 2: enslaved people who were freed who then joined them. So
Speaker 2: Andrew Jackson just went just like went around and burned
Speaker 2: down every Musgogie village that he could find.
Speaker 1: Which like a like a gentleman would, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: People tend to conveniently forget that usually everyone on all
Speaker 2: sides of any given war of colonization kills civilians every
Speaker 2: single chance they can get. It's like a hard conversation
Speaker 2: to have, so we all try to not have it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and all the history books that we get in
Speaker 3: American public schools do not reflect it because it just
Speaker 3: complicates things too much.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you pick one side to decide that they kill
Speaker 2: civilians and the other side that is the way.
Speaker 1: To civilian life, the ultimate complicating factor.
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. But you know, I think that there's a
Speaker 2: difference between colonial and anti colonial violence, and you know,
Speaker 2: not to just whatever. Anyway, now I'm accidentally getting into
Speaker 2: the modern shit. Most of the Red Sticks died in
Speaker 2: battle against Jackson. They were out number two to one
Speaker 2: at Horseshoe Bend in Alabama. Maybe all die so bravely. Basically,
Speaker 2: Andrew Jackson was promoted to major general for massacring all
Speaker 2: these people who outnumbered and then immediately got the Allied
Speaker 2: Muscogee people to sign away twenty three million acres of
Speaker 2: their territory, basically stole it from them. Basically, it was like, yeah,
Speaker 2: now you're just gonna give us all the shit because
Speaker 2: we want it. Yeah, any idea how big twenty three
Speaker 2: million acres is. It's like one of those numbers that's
Speaker 2: a meaningless number. No, right, I can tell you it
Speaker 2: was like a county, and I could tell you it
Speaker 2: was like the Eastern seaboards.
Speaker 1: Right at Florida.
Speaker 2: It's about half modern floor.
Speaker 1: Okay, twenty three million only half. I mean Florida's big though,
Speaker 1: I mean.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a big fucking state. You ever like drive
Speaker 2: through Florida and you're like, this is no way. This
Speaker 2: is going to feel like driving through Texas that takes years,
Speaker 2: but then it does. No it especially be like driving
Speaker 2: to Miami.
Speaker 3: It's it's it's gigantic, and also like there's a lot
Speaker 3: of I don't know, it's such a large state that
Speaker 3: I think, like Texas, there's also like regional specificity that
Speaker 3: gets kind of totally.
Speaker 2: So everyone's mad, right, because he just took so much
Speaker 2: fucking land. This terrible loss is why the Brits had
Speaker 2: so much luck recruiting indigenous people in the area, because
Speaker 2: even those who had been allied with the US had
Speaker 2: just been fucked And so it was up to Andrew Jackson.
Speaker 2: Everyone decided, probably including Andrew Jackson, that was up to
Speaker 2: him to smash the pesky interracial Army, which to be clear,
Speaker 2: absolutely was planning to go fuck up the US South
Speaker 2: and free from American government. That was absolutely their goal. Nichols,
Speaker 2: the Irishman, gave speeches about how they would quote unrivet
Speaker 2: the chains of every person still held in slavery. So
Speaker 2: they attacked the cool interracial army right their first at
Speaker 2: the Colonial Marines or whatever I said their name, like
Speaker 2: eight times. You think i'd remember the core of colonial Marines.
Speaker 2: The first attack on Alabama did not go well for
Speaker 2: the British, and grape shot took out Nichols right eye
Speaker 2: and he'll never see out of it again. It will
Speaker 2: not stop him from continuing to fight in battles where
Speaker 2: he gets bayoneted and doesn't stop. So they were treated
Speaker 2: and they got back to recruiting people. They were like, okay,
Speaker 2: well we need more people, and so they helped more
Speaker 2: and more people escape slavery. At least they end up
Speaker 2: taking over Pensacola for a minute because it's not really
Speaker 2: under American control e there, so it's sort of easy.
Speaker 2: At least two thirds of Pensacola's and slave population was
Speaker 2: recruited during this time, and all the slave owners would
Speaker 2: like go and be like, come on, Britz, give us
Speaker 2: back our people. And the Brits just laughed and we're like, nah,
Speaker 2: we have guns and shit, you're gonna fuck off now. Okay,
Speaker 2: So they're being cool. They're up to some cool stuff.
Speaker 2: November eighteen fourteen, Andrew Jackson invaded Pensacola and outnumbered the
Speaker 2: British Florida one. So the multiracial army fled and they
Speaker 2: blew up their fortifications as they went and went back
Speaker 2: to the British post, which is the fort that they
Speaker 2: had built along the Apalogic Cola River. They grow there
Speaker 2: to a force of about fifteen hundred as more and
Speaker 2: more indigenous warriors show up. There's like numbers that go
Speaker 2: all over the place, all the different like estimates where
Speaker 2: they're like, oh, they got three thousand, they got fifteen hundred,
Speaker 2: they got one thousand, there's three hundred of them. It's
Speaker 2: like all over the fucking place, the numbers.
Speaker 3: God, okay, And how many like different sources is it
Speaker 3: coming from?
Speaker 1: Is it just depends.
Speaker 2: It just depends. A lot of it is that it
Speaker 2: was very variable by time. And then also a lot
Speaker 2: of history doesn't necessarily like stay perfectly linear in how
Speaker 2: they describe these things. You know, I think that it's
Speaker 2: like at its largest. Also, a lot of the sources,
Speaker 2: like Americans kept exaggerating the size of this force because
Speaker 2: they were like this is the this is armageddon, you know,
Speaker 2: and so like there's like ones that are like there's
Speaker 2: fifteen thousand of them, but that's like a pro slavery
Speaker 2: American newspaper giving that number. For example, more and more
Speaker 2: indigenous warriors starts showing up, and then they start paying
Speaker 2: indigenous slave owners for the freedom of their slaves at
Speaker 2: about a I want to say about thirty dollars ahead,
Speaker 2: which is like way less than market rate. It's sort
Speaker 2: of a like we'll pay you to free slaves, but
Speaker 2: we won't pay like white people to free slaves in America.
Speaker 2: Those were just going to go capture, you know. On
Speaker 2: December twenty fourth, eighteen fourteen, the War of eighteen twelve
Speaker 2: was officially over by the signing of the Treaty of Ghent,
Speaker 2: but they didn't have cell phones, so the war raged
Speaker 2: on until news came months and months later that it
Speaker 2: had already ended in a draw because it didn't go
Speaker 2: well for either side. Basically both sides just fucked each
Speaker 2: other up.
Speaker 3: And it also, yeah, it also didn't just go in
Speaker 3: eighteen twelve. But that's that's that's the most that's the
Speaker 3: saddest thing in the world to me.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's.
Speaker 3: In like a casualty of war sense where you like,
Speaker 3: if someone you loved was killed after the war had
Speaker 3: been resolved, and you found that out later.
Speaker 1: I simply don't know what I would do.
Speaker 2: There's like World War One had that a lot, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's fucking it, is it? It would on either side
Speaker 2: like that would kind of fuck me up, you know, yeah,
Speaker 2: because then it was like a like, for example, the
Speaker 2: Americans are about to pull out their greatest victory in
Speaker 2: the War of eighteen twelve, after the war is over,
Speaker 2: the Battle of New Orleans, made famous by a song
Speaker 2: that I don't remember who sings and don't listen too much.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: On January eighth, eighteen fifteen, British soldiers attacked New Orleans,
Speaker 2: and Nichols's army was like, yeah, we're gonna lead. We
Speaker 2: volunteer to like lead the landing. We're going to go
Speaker 2: fuck these fucking slavers up. But they were told that
Speaker 2: they couldn't join. They were basically too valuable to risk,
Speaker 2: like they had, you know, the British and other military
Speaker 2: plans for them. The Battle of New Orleans was like
Speaker 2: not a huge deal from the British point of view,
Speaker 2: and the British army got wrecked, like two thousand dead
Speaker 2: to fourteen dead on the American side is what I read. God,
Speaker 2: it's like enough that I'm like, that's fucked.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: That is because they tried to march through a swamp
Speaker 2: at an entrenched position, and they were all so arrogant.
Speaker 2: They were like, we are the most civilized and advanced army.
Speaker 1: In the world.
Speaker 2: Of course we're going to wreck this like Motley Force,
Speaker 2: you know, right. And Andrew Jackson was in charge of
Speaker 2: defending New Orleans. This is a big This is like
Speaker 2: where is like fame like fucking comes from at the time.
Speaker 2: Now he's mostly famous as a butcher. He did the
Speaker 2: unthinkable when he defended New Orleans. He armed enslaved people.
Speaker 2: He promised people their freedom if they fought for the Americans.
Speaker 2: Then after the battle he did the thinkable, which was
Speaker 2: he said not just fucking kidding, your fucking property, not
Speaker 2: people giving back the guns.
Speaker 3: Often joke that isn't the most Andrew Jackson thing in
Speaker 3: the fucking world to do? Is yeah, yeah, promise advancement
Speaker 3: to read nag on it later.
Speaker 2: Yeah. One of the most annoying things about reading the
Speaker 2: nineteenth century like pro and anti slavery shit, is watching
Speaker 2: all of the people on all sides argue about whether
Speaker 2: or not black people would be any good in a fight,
Speaker 2: and like people refer to Andrew Jackson as like practically
Speaker 2: anti racist in that he like he was like he
Speaker 2: respected that black people knew how to fight for whatever.
Speaker 2: I hate him and I hate everything about him one man.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't can't hand it to him for that.
Speaker 2: No, absolutely, exactly, absolutely not. And the fact that that
Speaker 2: is a thing that is like constantly brought up, and
Speaker 2: it is a thing that like even like a lot
Speaker 2: of the British are doing during this point, they're like, whoa, Like,
Speaker 2: I didn't know that you all were like not racially inferior,
Speaker 2: you know, right.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, it's like we didn't know. We assumed that
Speaker 3: you were not competent in like it's what a treat,
Speaker 3: What a treat to be told that.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So one man who was promised his freedom was
Speaker 2: this guy named James Roberts. During the battle, he killed
Speaker 2: six British soldiers in hand to hand combat, losing a
Speaker 2: finger and taking a sword across the face and the process,
Speaker 2: and he survived. After the battle, the Americans disarmed him,
Speaker 2: stripped him, sent him to prison, and then sent him
Speaker 2: to the plantation where he'd come from. He later said quote,
Speaker 2: had there been less bravery with us, and he means
Speaker 2: the armed enslaved people, the British would have gained the victory,
Speaker 2: and in that event they would have set the slaves free.
Speaker 2: So that I see now how we in that war
Speaker 2: contributed to fasten our own chains tighter. What about fucking heartbreaking?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Like anyway, no, I mean no, yeah, yeah, I mean
Speaker 3: I feel like it just speaks to the the helplessness
Speaker 3: of the situation and just that they're like, are ultimately no,
Speaker 3: I don't know, there's no good imperial.
Speaker 1: Force to ally with. If he can believe it, in
Speaker 1: this case, there's a better one.
Speaker 2: Everyone who fought for the British not only were they freed,
Speaker 2: but so were their families. Oh wow, Okay, and Andrew
Speaker 2: Jackson after they like after the folks who fight and
Speaker 2: then they flee whatever, Andrew Jackson figures that he can
Speaker 2: now show up. He's like, he just crushed the British, right,
Speaker 2: So he's like, I'm just gonna show up and be like, yo,
Speaker 2: give us back our property. And the British were like,
Speaker 2: now we're good, and once again all the like slave
Speaker 2: owners go and they're like they're like, same deal as
Speaker 2: always you can come and not by force ask people
Speaker 2: to return to you. And so all these like slave
Speaker 2: owners like showed up and we're like, oh, of course
Speaker 2: they're going to come back. We're gonna like ask nicely. Right.
Speaker 2: A few people in this case did end up going back. Basically,
Speaker 2: I think that they thought that they might get abandoned
Speaker 2: and killed, and they just were looking to their options.
Speaker 2: Almost everyone was like, no chance in fucking hell will
Speaker 2: we do that. One newly freed wagon driver told us
Speaker 2: form master, you may carry my head along with you,
Speaker 2: but as to my body, it will remain here, like
Speaker 2: it's just the time of metal quotes.
Speaker 1: Basically, yeah, I was like, there's really some bangers in
Speaker 1: this story, like one after the other.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And they still don't know the war's over. So
Speaker 2: Nichol's army is now thirty five hundred strong and they
Speaker 2: get ready to invade and they're gonna just fucking go
Speaker 2: fuck up the American South.
Speaker 1: The war's over.
Speaker 2: But they're like, let they don't know what s goo. Girls, Well,
Speaker 2: they don't know it, right, right, right?
Speaker 3: Do we know how exactly how long after this is,
Speaker 3: we're still only like a month or so later.
Speaker 2: I don't remember the well, okay, So, like the treaty
Speaker 2: was signed, Battle of New Orleans is January eighth, and
Speaker 2: so then like pretty immediately afterwards, right, it's like a
Speaker 2: week or two later or something. They're like, we're getting
Speaker 2: ready to go do this thing, but then news of
Speaker 2: the truth comes before they get chance to do it.
Speaker 2: And so Nichols's army basically it's like never really put
Speaker 2: to the test. And you know, so then Spain's like,
Speaker 2: all right, great, the war's over. Can we have our
Speaker 2: enslaved people back? And Nichols was like nah. And then
Speaker 2: and Spade was like, but there's no legal basis for that,
Speaker 2: and Nicholas is like, I don't really care, nick, Nick. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it was hilarious because the deal was that under the
Speaker 2: Spanish territorial law it was okay for slaves escaping the
Speaker 2: US to be freed, but not Spanish slaves, like anyone
Speaker 2: escaping a Spanish owner.
Speaker 1: Right, okay.
Speaker 2: And so there's all these slaves with Hispanic last names
Speaker 2: who only spoke Spanish, and Nichols is like, nah, that
Speaker 2: guy's American, you know, and they'd be like, no, I
Speaker 2: swear that that's our guy. Nicholas just be like no,
Speaker 2: it's not you got Oh also I have a lot
Speaker 2: of guns.
Speaker 1: Yeah, gigantic bluff. I love it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. In the end, Nichols presented each person who had
Speaker 2: fought or was there a certificate of freedom, saying that
Speaker 2: their service in the military meant that they were free,
Speaker 2: and that the basically that the Spanish delegates could eat it.
Speaker 2: The Spanish delegates are like there when he's passing out
Speaker 2: these certificates.
Speaker 1: Sure.
Speaker 2: And he also gave the soldiers all of their wages
Speaker 2: for the entire time, which is the whole thing. And
Speaker 2: like even the Army of the North and during the
Speaker 2: Civil War like decades later, was like real bad at
Speaker 2: paying black soldiers, you know. So he's like, here's all
Speaker 2: your money. You can keep the uniform and you are
Speaker 2: officially discharged from service because the war is over. And
Speaker 2: these certificates that he gave them kept a bunch of
Speaker 2: people free down the line because there's like all this
Speaker 2: shit where like because Nichols rules in Britain sucks, you know,
Speaker 2: and so like later a lot of these freed people
Speaker 2: like go to other British colonies and people are like, no,
Speaker 2: you're not free, and they have to be like, ah,
Speaker 2: I'm going to take it to court and I have
Speaker 2: this document and shit, you know, so he made a
Speaker 2: fucking paper trail. He based it on nothing. He based
Speaker 2: it on I want these people to be free. Here's
Speaker 2: a document.
Speaker 1: God, that fucking rocks.
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally another A win for the Irish, a win
Speaker 3: for fighting Nichols. Yeah, just having an army, a bunch
Speaker 3: of guns and a big old lie and actually being
Speaker 3: on the right side of history. And the war ended
Speaker 3: a month ago.
Speaker 1: Secretly, great, great, great, great great.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And so he tried one less thing, but the
Speaker 2: British government didn't go for it. Basically, he was like,
Speaker 2: we will absolutely keep this war going if you don't
Speaker 2: give the Muscogee back the land that Andrew Jackson stole,
Speaker 2: those twenty three million acres, we will absolutely go to
Speaker 2: war for it. And then Britain was like, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: not so much. We're not going to do that. But
Speaker 2: they did stand by the emancipation of five thousand enslaved
Speaker 2: people who had escaped to British territory. In April eighteen fifteen,
Speaker 2: Nichols and the rest of the white British unit left.
Speaker 2: They this gets like a little blurry. They had this
Speaker 2: intention to return in six months or maybe a year,
Speaker 2: and maybe it was to like help transport everyone away.
Speaker 2: But then other people were like, no, he was never
Speaker 2: planning on coming back, and people like chose to stay
Speaker 2: there because they wanted to just live there and keep
Speaker 2: the fort and shit. And the reason I want I
Speaker 2: want to like Nichols. And two the other reason I
Speaker 2: kind of trust him about this. He leaves this fort
Speaker 2: intact fully armed with hundreds of guns, like eight cannon
Speaker 2: powder keg after powder keg, like this is a fully
Speaker 2: he doesn't take any of the food like he as
Speaker 2: far as I can tell, he just right by the people.
Speaker 2: The one thing he fucked up is he left a
Speaker 2: white guy in charge. Oh he's gonna fuck off soon,
Speaker 2: don't worry, Okay.
Speaker 3: I mean I just based on what you just I'm
Speaker 3: tempted to want to give a good faith reading of
Speaker 3: that because other than just like fucking off in the
Speaker 3: middle of the night and like, you know, completely like
Speaker 3: it sounds like there was the intent of some longevity there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And when he leaves, it transports a ton of
Speaker 2: the formally enslaved people with them when they leave, but
Speaker 2: a lot of people stick around, but they leave this
Speaker 2: white guy named Hambly around and they're like, all right,
Speaker 2: this guy's in charge. And he was like he had
Speaker 2: been he was local to the area, and he had
Speaker 2: been like an important part of a lot of the
Speaker 2: conversations with indigenous leaders and stuff, and he had worked
Speaker 2: for the trading post that was what used to be
Speaker 2: there before the fort. So Nichols leaves. He goes on
Speaker 2: to continue his life, to go fuck up slave ships
Speaker 2: in Atlantic. A bunch of black soldiers leave with him,
Speaker 2: and they go off to live in Bermuda and shit.
Speaker 2: About three hundred black families remain at the fort, which
Speaker 2: is fully stocked and armed by the British. Before their departure,
Speaker 2: bish post becomes Negro Negro Fort, and the Spanish authorities
Speaker 2: couldn't do shit about it because it was fully stocked
Speaker 2: and armed fort. So what the fuck are they going
Speaker 2: to do about it? Because one thing that history teaches
Speaker 2: you is that often the law doesn't matter if you
Speaker 2: have enough guns.
Speaker 1: And this can go a lot of ways.
Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely, it goes bad and good, yes, constantly, yeah, yes,
Speaker 2: but generally true. Yeah, some of the black families and
Speaker 2: soldiers they actually had come with the British in the
Speaker 2: first place from Virginia or the Caribbean and decided to
Speaker 2: stick around because they were like, actually, if we stay here,
Speaker 2: there's this amazing community of resistance that's being built. It's
Speaker 2: basically like being built as a maroon community right away.
Speaker 2: And so a bunch of people who came from elsewhere,
Speaker 2: who were just British soldiers were like, nas where we're
Speaker 2: not gonna be. Yeah, Indigenous fighters stuck around as well,
Speaker 2: or they lived in the area immediately around it. But
Speaker 2: one thing that they didn't have that you and I
Speaker 2: have is access to Actually, I'm sure there were ads.
Speaker 2: There are probably a ton of ads, but our ads
Speaker 2: are more developed, but not.
Speaker 3: With the weird little music beds that not the little
Speaker 3: beet boop beat boops that you get on a podcast ad.
Speaker 3: There's a unique kind of gorgeous, annoying musical cadence to
Speaker 3: a podcast add there really is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and here they are and we're back. So how
Speaker 2: do you think that America took the fact that when
Speaker 2: the British left, they left a armed maroon community in
Speaker 2: a fort that was incredibly defensible.
Speaker 3: Oh, I think in the way America always takes things calmly,
Speaker 3: reasonably and wanting to be include and extend that American
Speaker 3: dream to everybody.
Speaker 1: Is that correct?
Speaker 2: Yes, it's close, and they were you know, they probably
Speaker 2: were like, well, that's not America. Why is it any
Speaker 2: of our business? Mm hmm. But unfortunately everything is America's business.
Speaker 2: Jamie loftus and the existence of the sport scared the
Speaker 2: shit out of white people, just fucking kept people up
Speaker 2: at night. This was going to destroy everything they loved
Speaker 2: about America. There's newspapers all over the country screaming and
Speaker 2: yelling about this happening. Those black people, who weren't even
Speaker 2: in the fuck United States, fucking United States, were like
Speaker 2: coming for baseball and apple pie and by that I
Speaker 2: mean chattel slavery only. Okay, it be clear. It would
Speaker 2: be entirely fine if they I would love them if
Speaker 2: they were off to go do that. They weren't. The
Speaker 2: war was over. They were not planning some great raid
Speaker 2: on the US. They were just trying to fucking live free.
Speaker 2: Quote the author Matthew C. Clayven from the best book
Speaker 2: about this that I'm aware of the Battle of negro Fort.
Speaker 2: Quote negro Fort's denizens were not slave revolutionaries out to
Speaker 2: destroy the nefarious institution that sought to keep them in bondage.
Speaker 2: Nor were they determined to restore or recreate a traditional
Speaker 2: way of life recalled from their youth or inherited from
Speaker 2: their African ancestors. Instead, like other Maroons who struggled to
Speaker 2: survive in the Southern United States or adjacent territories, their
Speaker 2: actions show that self determination, self reliance, and self rule
Speaker 2: were their key objectives, and so they were just trying
Speaker 2: to fucking live.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was like, that's a long way of saying,
Speaker 3: just living with dignity and independence.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2: That white guy Hambley, he was a chicken shit loser.
Speaker 2: He ran off right away and he went to the
Speaker 2: US and he was like, please destroy that place. I'll
Speaker 2: help you negotiate with indigenous leaders to attack it.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, okay, leader real flame out. Okay, you'll flame
Speaker 3: that use it. Yeah, he will know he had millennial burnout.
Speaker 2: Margaret, right, totally. That's what I mean.
Speaker 1: You have burnout at work.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what do you think that they had, Like, like,
Speaker 2: I don't know the names of generations before the greatest generation.
Speaker 2: You know, it's like greatest old boomers, young boomers, which
Speaker 2: is a millennial silent?
Speaker 1: Is it silent before greatest.
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah is the greatest, and then silent. But but
Speaker 2: what the fuck did they call?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 2: I hate asking questions like this because people are going
Speaker 2: to answer me, and the when people answer me correctly,
Speaker 2: it's interesting. And when people just a year from now
Speaker 2: listen to this and then message me with no context,
Speaker 2: I'll have no idea.
Speaker 3: They're like Margaret, Margaret Pep. Generally it was the Pep generation. Yeah, cool,
Speaker 3: I that is all. That is Like one of the
Speaker 3: beautiful parts of parasociality is someone answering a question you
Speaker 3: asked six years ago, yeah, and being presented as urgent
Speaker 3: or I don't know, just like stuff like, hey, do
Speaker 3: you remember when you said this in twenty eighteen. I'm like, guaranteed, no,
Speaker 3: let's assume I was wrong.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't remember by the time you're
Speaker 2: hearing this, even if you listen when it first came out,
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna remember make this sentence. I only remember
Speaker 2: about the four Yeah. The weird side conversations not part
Speaker 2: of my memory, nor should it be. Yeah, anyway, before
Speaker 2: we talk shit on the people who are listen to
Speaker 2: our s eh okay.
Speaker 3: Oh no, no, no, it's just an interesting it's an
Speaker 3: interesting and like usually.
Speaker 1: Funny side effect of the job.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I do it to like I do it
Speaker 2: to Jamie. I listened to something Jamie did, Like I
Speaker 2: do it to Robert. I do it to Yeah, I
Speaker 2: do it to cool Zone media. People like it. It
Speaker 2: is a human instinct to be like, I know a
Speaker 2: thing about that. Like Robert Evans said, the people listen
Speaker 2: to the view Nation are old. I'm sure Robert Evans
Speaker 2: doesn't remember saying that, But when I listen to the
Speaker 2: v Nation in my basement when I'm working out, I think, yeah, no,
Speaker 2: I'm kind of old. This is a really interesting aside.
Speaker 2: People are very glad we did it.
Speaker 3: I love Yeah, I love talking to five year old
Speaker 3: MP three files.
Speaker 1: It's my passion.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, yeah, so negro Fort Sadly, the whole point
Speaker 2: of this episode is about how cool this place was
Speaker 2: the reason that we didn't get to it until now
Speaker 2: is because we don't know that much about it. We
Speaker 2: know a lot about what happened when there were white
Speaker 2: people around, and we know very little when they weren't.
Speaker 2: It was fucking cool. We know that Nichols is great,
Speaker 2: but it's annoying that he gets all the screen time
Speaker 2: and we know more about him. We know that Maroon
Speaker 2: communities require security culture order to stay alive, and that's
Speaker 2: part of why we know so little about Maroon communities.
Speaker 2: We also know that in this community there were Spanish speaking,
Speaker 2: French speaking, English speaking, and people born in Africa all
Speaker 2: living there side by side. And we know that's because
Speaker 2: mostly of their names, Like one person would be like
Speaker 2: Congo Tom because he was born in Africa, and another
Speaker 2: person will have like a French.
Speaker 1: Name or whatever, right m.
Speaker 2: And we actually know a lot about like because they're
Speaker 2: fucking listed as property. We know a lot of their names,
Speaker 2: and we know a lot of their job descriptions, you know,
Speaker 2: because people are like reporting their missing property. We also
Speaker 2: know that they had eight cannons and that's part of
Speaker 2: why they managed to fucking stay missing property, which fucking rules. Yeah,
Speaker 2: they were skilled artisans. They had eight cannons, a howitzer
Speaker 2: which is like halfway between a cannon and a mortar,
Speaker 2: so it's like not quite as long distance or whatever.
Speaker 2: And they had hundreds of muskets.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we saw howitzer was just a brand name of
Speaker 2: a gun. And then I started reading.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean think xerox or a Zamboni situation.
Speaker 1: Interesting. Okay, it's his own thing.
Speaker 2: It might be Oh god, I've talked about a military Okay. Anyway,
Speaker 2: we know that they started off with food stores, but
Speaker 2: soon they were growing their own and they seemed to
Speaker 2: live lives of plenty. They herded cattle in the swampy forest.
Speaker 2: They grew corn and melons, and they cultivated land. They
Speaker 2: set up like several they're described as plantations, but that
Speaker 2: just means like how they plant things, not how it
Speaker 2: was structured. They hunted turkey and alligator and deer, and
Speaker 2: they fished. They traded extensively with their indigenous allies in
Speaker 2: the surrounding area. New fugitives arrived every day. They just
Speaker 2: kept growing, and they were all considered bandits. And to
Speaker 2: be clear, I think they did some piracy they like
Speaker 2: built boats and shit, but mostly they were bandits because
Speaker 2: they had stolen valuable property. Do you want to guess
Speaker 2: what the valuable property they stole was. No, it's themselves. No,
Speaker 2: that's what makes them bandits. They are bandits because they
Speaker 2: stole property.
Speaker 1: I think their own human bodies.
Speaker 2: Yes, they stole from slave owners and for once they
Speaker 2: are black lead. We know about three of the commanders.
Speaker 2: There's Cyrus, there's Prince, who was actually a lieutenant in
Speaker 2: the Colonial Marines. And the most famous of the three, Garson,
Speaker 2: was a thirty six year old carpenter who'd been a
Speaker 2: sergeant major. Why was he the most famous because his
Speaker 2: name was French.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I was about to say, because he
Speaker 3: had a cute little name.
Speaker 1: And that was the reason.
Speaker 2: It is the reason, because this the single scariest thing
Speaker 2: that has happened to white Southerners and human history was
Speaker 2: the Haitian Revolution.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: And during the Haitian Revolution, which had only ended, it
Speaker 2: ended in eighteen oh four, and you know, so not
Speaker 2: that long before this, black and slave people rose up
Speaker 2: and freed themselves. And the guy who had led that,
Speaker 2: to Saint Luvatour, whose French name I am not good
Speaker 2: at French, was a black guy with a French name.
Speaker 2: So here's Garson, He's French and black. The end is nigh,
Speaker 2: god like, all over the papers, all over the papers,
Speaker 2: they're like the Haitian Revolution's coming. Which, don't get me wrong,
Speaker 2: there were many people trying to make the Haitian Revolution
Speaker 2: come to North America for sure.
Speaker 3: But I'm just at every turn, just a nation of
Speaker 3: fucking weird babies.
Speaker 2: It's just absolutely and who will save this nation of
Speaker 2: weird babies? But a hero, a hero will merge. Mm hmmm,
Speaker 2: it's Andrew Jackson.
Speaker 1: Again. I had a feeling it was Andrew Jackson.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, if anyone was well equipped to capture the
Speaker 1: mind of violent babies, I suppose it was Andrew Jackson.
Speaker 2: Yep. Which is an awkward place to start an ad pivot,
Speaker 2: but that's where it is. It's right here, right now.
Speaker 2: Here's an ad pivot, and.
Speaker 1: We're back, and we pivoted right on back. It feels
Speaker 1: I think that would perfectly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely good my job. So basically, Andrew Jackson was like,
Speaker 2: dear mister the President, can I invade a sovereign country
Speaker 2: to put down a ford in their territory because I
Speaker 2: think that they make Basically, it was like the existence
Speaker 2: of this place will incite people to flee, right, Okay,
Speaker 2: that was like their main argument, which is true, the
Speaker 2: existence of that place incited people to flee, which is good,
Speaker 2: just not he presents it as bad because he's a
Speaker 2: backwards man who walks backwards and talks. It's opposite day
Speaker 2: for him, every day exactly. Yeah, he's the opposite moratl
Speaker 2: guy yea. And so he writes, dear mister President, can
Speaker 2: I invade the sovereign country to put down a fort
Speaker 2: in their territory? And the President's like, oh, I don't
Speaker 2: know when he's like thinking about it. And then Andrew
Speaker 2: Jackson's like, you know what, I'm not waiting for a response.
Speaker 1: I don't care.
Speaker 2: Wow, And just in classic white supremacist for him, he's like,
Speaker 2: fuck the law, I do things my way.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: No, he's he's a classic example of uh asked, you know,
Speaker 3: apologizing instead of asking for permission.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And he also did the same thing to
Speaker 2: the Spanish. He wrote and was like, if you all
Speaker 2: don't take down that place, I will. But before the
Speaker 2: Spanish have a chance to think about it, America is
Speaker 2: already on its way to a legally cross into Spain
Speaker 2: and fuck it, thinks up, it's time to go burn
Speaker 2: indigenous villages, including our recent allies, blow up the fort
Speaker 2: all in someone else's country. It is entirely illegal, even
Speaker 2: by US standards. That has never stopped anyone with power,
Speaker 2: let alone Andrew Jackson. But Andrew Jackson didn't lead it himself.
Speaker 2: He just illegally authorized his subordinate general Gains to do
Speaker 2: it for him, because Jackson wanted to be president and
Speaker 2: so he wanted to do some plausible deniability shit where
Speaker 2: what he said was go take care of it however
Speaker 2: you think is best. But we we have his correspondence
Speaker 2: where he's openly like and by that I mean like
Speaker 2: he'll everyone and blow shit up and get back all
Speaker 2: this enslaved people and shit, I don't care through Violet.
Speaker 3: I feel like that there is just like a kind
Speaker 3: of commonly held like presidents were not caught saying openly inflammatory,
Speaker 3: violent shit before Watergate, and you're like, no, they've been
Speaker 3: doing it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he is absolutely gonna end up president at the
Speaker 2: end of this story.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3: And there's and then the paper trail collectively everyone decided
Speaker 3: didn't matter.
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, that's for historians.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So Gaines's plan was simple. He was going to hire
Speaker 2: the local indigenous people to do all the fighting and
Speaker 2: dying by promising them fifty dollars ahead for recaptured slaves,
Speaker 2: which is about four times the going rate, and also
Speaker 2: that they could loot the place of anything but cannons,
Speaker 2: and they could also keep any people who for whom
Speaker 2: owners couldn't be found. They would be supported by some
Speaker 2: US gunboats, and at least the book Battle of Negro
Speaker 2: Fort represents it as the first ever large scale slave
Speaker 2: hunting expedition by the US. The first battle of it
Speaker 2: went really badly for the US, which is fun. A
Speaker 2: small boat of white soldiers like went up the river
Speaker 2: looking for fresh water, and they were ambushed by twenty
Speaker 2: black and twenty indigenous fighters, each under their own commander.
Speaker 2: Garsan was leading the black forces and an unknown unnamed
Speaker 2: chief to let the indigenous fighters, and they killed some
Speaker 2: of the white people and they drove the rest off
Speaker 2: somewhere along the way. Aware of the coming attack, hundreds
Speaker 2: of maroons and fugitives slipped out of the fort, while
Speaker 2: a few hundreds stayed behind to defend it. The fugitives
Speaker 2: took refuge in various indigenous communities, especially among the Seminole.
Speaker 2: We'll talk a little bit more about soon. The fort
Speaker 2: was besieged indigenous warriors of the I mean it's literally
Speaker 2: Musgogi fighters on both sides of this. So it's just
Speaker 2: like the indigenous warriors in the woods were shooting at
Speaker 2: the fort while the white people hid in boats behind
Speaker 2: the bluff. Their stated plan was to stay out of
Speaker 2: it so that no white people got hurt. And this
Speaker 2: lasted six days, this siege, and there were sorties fought
Speaker 2: between the two forces that forced the soldiers of negro
Speaker 2: Fort back behind their walls. And about half of the
Speaker 2: soldiers in negro Fort are black and the other half
Speaker 2: were indigenous. They flew the union jack and above it
Speaker 2: they flew a solid red flag, which was a flag
Speaker 2: that meant they would offer no quarter and not accept
Speaker 2: any quarter. They were all going to fight to the
Speaker 2: death rather than go back into trains. Once again, very metal.
Speaker 1: A very yeah. There nothing if not consistently metal. Yeah.
Speaker 2: The battle ended quickly. I spent the episode talking about
Speaker 2: metaphorical powder kegs, but this one's not metaphorical. At the
Speaker 2: center of the fort was this massive stone edifice named
Speaker 2: the Citadel that stored all the powder for all those
Speaker 2: cannons and muskets. One of the besieging gunboats was doing
Speaker 2: something called hot shot, where they would put the cannonballs
Speaker 2: in like a furnace, like a makeshift furnace that they
Speaker 2: built on the boat before shooting them out of the cannons.
Speaker 2: One cannon ball found its way into the citadel. The
Speaker 2: resulting explosion was heard for miles in every direction, and
Speaker 2: almost every defender died in the blast. About two hundred
Speaker 2: and fifty people died in About fifty people survived, most
Speaker 2: of whom later succumbed to their wounds. Okay Garson and
Speaker 2: an unnamed Choctaw war chief survived the blast. They were captured.
Speaker 2: They immediately and proudly took credit for killing the American soldiers,
Speaker 2: and they were scalped and shot. Almost none of the
Speaker 2: Maroons were returned to slavery. Almost every single one of
Speaker 2: them died free, which was their plan. Wow, And like
Speaker 2: I feel like that doesn't like it gets talked about
Speaker 2: like this great loss and it was right, Like they
Speaker 2: didn't win, but they were really clear about their intentions.
Speaker 2: And they also provided enough time for way more people
Speaker 2: who stayed to get out and get away, you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and I think that there should and
Speaker 3: often is has to be some area for well, what
Speaker 3: does winning versus losing look like in a situation like this?
Speaker 3: And I think that, yeah, like characterizing it as a
Speaker 3: total loss would would not be true because you know,
Speaker 3: dilied free.
Speaker 2: Yeah. In the end, like I think maybe two people
Speaker 2: were returned to slavery successfully. During all of this, the
Speaker 2: refugees from negro Fort went deeper into the wilderness and
Speaker 2: they formed two communities. There was a black one called
Speaker 2: Nero's Town, which had a leader named Nero, and an
Speaker 2: indigenous one called bow Leg's Town, which had a leader
Speaker 2: named bow Leg.
Speaker 1: Okay, I was waiting for a twist.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no twist. More fugitives began to join them.
Speaker 2: So the Maroon community continues and the two communities, they're
Speaker 2: like military societies and including at like negro Fort was
Speaker 2: like a military institution. It considered itself British military unit
Speaker 2: and so like it was like it gets presented as
Speaker 2: a military dictatorship or whatever. I'm like, yeah, it was.
Speaker 2: It was a military society. You know that it was
Speaker 2: around in the middle of basically an active war. I'm
Speaker 2: not fucking coming at them for their authoritarianism, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And Nero's Town in bow Legs Town are presented in
Speaker 2: very similar ways where they were still a lot of
Speaker 2: them are still wearing uniforms. A lot of them are like, no,
Speaker 2: this is just where we're continuing the fight in ok
Speaker 2: and Nero's town. Nero was a black man who had
Speaker 2: himself run away from slavery twenty plus years earlier to
Speaker 2: live with the seminole before showing up to negro Fort,
Speaker 2: and in Nero's town, they would dance the Red Stick dance,
Speaker 2: which was a way like part of the culture of
Speaker 2: the Red Sticks, so they consider themselves part of the
Speaker 2: Red Sticks. Shortly after the destruction of negro Fort, hundreds
Speaker 2: of Seminal Warriors and Red Sticks captured that asshole Hambly,
Speaker 2: you know, the like the dude who had fucking been
Speaker 2: left in charge.
Speaker 1: Wow, they found.
Speaker 2: The flop, which is like the most movie part of it, right,
Speaker 2: he'd be like the Disney villain who like you know,
Speaker 2: runs away and like gets but yeah he gets.
Speaker 3: I'm so glad he got gotten. That's thrilling.
Speaker 2: And then so Seminal Warriors capture him, transport him and
Speaker 2: some other folks who were responsible for the destruction one
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty miles to Nero's town, and there were
Speaker 2: sentenced to torture by a tribunal, with the implication being
Speaker 2: tortured at death. But Nero intervened for some unknown reason
Speaker 2: and had them transported in turnover to Spanish authorities. I'd
Speaker 2: be so I'd be so pissed if I was one
Speaker 2: of the people who had just transported this guy one
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty miles, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, with with the sweet promise.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, not to be like, actually we've decided to
Speaker 3: go to a different direction.
Speaker 1: Fuck you, Yeah, we got this far. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 3: Well I still think that's I mean, that is yeah,
Speaker 3: that is a movie style return.
Speaker 1: I thought I thought.
Speaker 3: That he he got off scott free.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, and did not get off Scott free.
Speaker 1: Excellent, great news.
Speaker 2: And then in the US, basically weird, annoying political machinations
Speaker 2: of cover up started immediately because what they had done
Speaker 2: was flagrantly illegal. Right. The other thing that started right
Speaker 2: away was the hunt for all the fugitives who'd escaped,
Speaker 2: which was basically another illegal intrusion into Spanish Florida by
Speaker 2: Andrew Jackson, this time him personally, and they went around
Speaker 2: in massacred places. They massacred Nero's town at least I
Speaker 2: don't know about bow Legstown. Jackson personally enslaved a black
Speaker 2: fighter who still wore his red coat.
Speaker 1: Jesus an inexhaustibly evil person.
Speaker 2: I know, just fucking terminators style, like more than four
Speaker 2: Even after this, more than four hundred and thirty negro
Speaker 2: Fort refugees continued to live in Florida free, mostly with
Speaker 2: the Seminoles. The Seminoles didn't take kindly. All this massacring happening,
Speaker 2: and you get the first Seminole War, which is a
Speaker 2: story for another week, but the shortish versions of it. Eventually,
Speaker 2: the Seminole War led Spain to be like, fine, fuck it,
Speaker 2: take Florida. We kind of hate it anyhow, and the
Speaker 2: US got one of its most cursed states. The Seminoles
Speaker 2: went so hard that there's more than one Seminole War
Speaker 2: in which negro Fort veterans fought and got to see
Speaker 2: some revenge on the empire that enslaved them. Like literally
Speaker 2: the fifteen twenty year later wore some of the same
Speaker 2: veterans were like, Yeah, we're going to go fuck up
Speaker 2: some fucking like colonial Americans. Absolutely, mm hmm.
Speaker 1: God, I would love to hear a cool people on
Speaker 1: the Seminole wars.
Speaker 2: That is, it's absolutely in the plans. I've been. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I've like done some of the research into it. It's
Speaker 2: going to get into some messy and interesting shit and
Speaker 2: some like yeah wild escapades. In eighteen twenty nine, famed
Speaker 2: racist crusader Andrew Jackson became the seventeenth President of the
Speaker 2: United States and the first Democratic president back when Democrat
Speaker 2: meant the pro slavery guys. He signed the Indian Removal
Speaker 2: Act and was just like one of the worst people
Speaker 2: ever born. The Seminal Wars were Indian wars, but they
Speaker 2: were also wars over slavery. The North was like, what
Speaker 2: the fuck are we doing? And the abolitionist movement adopted
Speaker 2: negro Fort as a symbol and the US attack on
Speaker 2: it as evidence of the US being won't referred. They
Speaker 2: started referring to the US accurately enough as a slaveocracy,
Speaker 2: like ruled by slavers, and their evidence was the US
Speaker 2: keeps doing shit for slavers. That has nothing to do
Speaker 2: with our economic interest nothing to do with our military interests.
Speaker 2: It's just for slavery, right. Negro Fort was on John
Speaker 2: Brown's tongue when he declared need for a violent liberation
Speaker 2: of enslaved people and wrote a long piece about it.
Speaker 2: Three months after he wrote that he led his assault
Speaker 2: on Harper's Ferry. That as we've talked about before, was
Speaker 2: at least a crucial domino, if not the spark itself
Speaker 2: that started the Civil War and ended legal chattel slavery
Speaker 2: in the United States. So here's to Garson and the
Speaker 2: hundreds of other unnamed Indigenous and Black people who lived free,
Speaker 2: died free, and helped spark one of the greatest movements
Speaker 2: for human liberty and history against one of the most
Speaker 2: vile empires that has ever existed on this earth.
Speaker 3: That is so, I mean, it stands straight, but it's
Speaker 3: really cool to hear that that Negro for it became
Speaker 3: such a huge.
Speaker 1: Inspiration for the movement moving forward, and.
Speaker 3: Also makes it, I mean all the more frustrating that
Speaker 3: it is not taught oh yeah to anyway. But I
Speaker 3: feel like any any armed resistance is especially by indigenous
Speaker 3: or black people of the US, is just not no, not.
Speaker 1: We don't talk.
Speaker 2: About it, absolutely not, and especially yeah, I don't like
Speaker 2: telling stories where the British are the good guys, right like,
Speaker 2: and so I think that's even part of it too.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's mostly this. We didn't talk about violent resistance,
Speaker 2: especially any violent resistance that could be justified. You know,
Speaker 2: we're always like, h sure, the evil, savage people being whatever,
Speaker 2: you know, but right, yeah, no, it was a completely
Speaker 2: justified thing that even in the and then the other
Speaker 2: thing is that people are like, oh, we're so smart now,
Speaker 2: and in the nineteenth century they're all idiots, and I'm like, no,
Speaker 2: in the eighteen thirties and forties, people were like, wait,
Speaker 2: what we did? What are you fucking kidding me?
Speaker 1: Well, then, and then the inevitability.
Speaker 3: Of of everyone involved acting so heroically and genuinely having
Speaker 3: a net win not only in a number of people
Speaker 3: living and dying free, but in inspiring them, inspiring further action.
Speaker 3: And contrasting that with and Andrew Jackson becomes president anyways,
Speaker 3: and I know, you know, never sees a consequence in
Speaker 3: his entire fucking life and just accruse more and more
Speaker 3: and more power.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And it's funny too, Like if you read about Andrew
Speaker 2: Jackson's legacy, it's like Andrew Jackson was incredibly popular, and
Speaker 2: then it's like, by the second half of the twentieth
Speaker 2: century some people were starting to think he was not
Speaker 2: a good person, you know that.
Speaker 4: Two hundred years yeah, Like, but and also at the
Speaker 4: same time, it's like people are like, oh, product of
Speaker 4: their time, and it's like one Andrew Jackson was worse
Speaker 4: than everyone and everyone knew it.
Speaker 2: He was.
Speaker 1: He was the worst guy then.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like he was more racist than the racist founding fathers,
Speaker 2: you know. And like also everyone at the time was
Speaker 2: like fuck that. Not everyone, most people liked him, but
Speaker 2: a ton of people were like fuck this guy. Well,
Speaker 2: and again also I hate and we're like, oh, all
Speaker 2: white all people in the nineteenth century were racist, and
Speaker 2: you're like, do you mean all white people?
Speaker 4: Like?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 2: Anyway, that's the story.
Speaker 1: That's this, that's the story. Wow, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for uh for telling me.
Speaker 3: I truly knew, I mean, and I knew a little
Speaker 3: bit about this, about.
Speaker 1: The Seminole Wars, but I did not know, uh what
Speaker 1: preceded it. Yeah, yeah, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 3: I hope that I really, I mean, not that I have,
Speaker 3: you know, much hope in this way, but I hope
Speaker 3: that that this is like.
Speaker 1: Talked about more. It's really starting and still could and
Speaker 1: should be inspiring. Now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, Well what else should be talked about now
Speaker 2: is your plugs?
Speaker 3: Yay, yay, Okay, you can uh, I uh just began
Speaker 3: producing a relaunch of Do You Wonder Show? We The
Speaker 3: End Housed, hosted by Theo Henderson on iHeartRadio. It is
Speaker 3: a show about the unhoused experience from an unhoused lens.
Speaker 3: We have episodes that release every other Tuesday, and we
Speaker 3: just relaunched, So get in on the ground floor of
Speaker 3: the show. And there's also a great backlog. And yeah,
Speaker 3: it's holiday times. You should get my book Raw Dog.
Speaker 3: It's about hot dogs and also about the evils of capitalism.
Speaker 3: So if you're a fan of this show and not
Speaker 3: a fan of hot dogs, there's still something for you
Speaker 3: in it.
Speaker 2: I secretly love all of the reviews of people who
Speaker 2: got really upset when they thought it was just gonna
Speaker 2: be about hot dogs, but didn't realize that the manufacture
Speaker 2: of a commodity ties in the economic system that creates
Speaker 2: it and might be critical of that economic system.
Speaker 3: Or that I would want to even mention manufacturing. They're like,
Speaker 3: what the heck? This was supposed to be about the
Speaker 3: one my dad makes? Yeah, why is it just about mustard?
Speaker 1: Yeah? No, although I'm sure that if I had had
Speaker 1: more real.
Speaker 3: Estate page wise, we could have we could have found
Speaker 3: a mustard bastard easily.
Speaker 2: Yeah, now I'm just imagining a sort of a cartoon,
Speaker 2: not a cartoon character, like a mascot, a villain with
Speaker 2: a in a mustard suit.
Speaker 3: I don't know why a torly mustache peeking out of
Speaker 3: a mustard suit.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, I'm like, I'm gonna go eat dumplanes and
Speaker 2: I'm like, I wonder if i can put mustard on them.
Speaker 2: I think I'm gonna stick with soy sauce. But okay,
Speaker 2: I'm clearly distracted by the fact that I'm hungry.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 2: You can follow me on Instagram. My Instagram is at
Speaker 2: Margaret Kiljoy. You can follow me on substack. My substack
Speaker 2: is you Google Margaret Kiljoy substack. I don't know anyone
Speaker 2: who actually types in any URL in that particular situation.
Speaker 2: I post new essays every week. Half of them are public,
Speaker 2: half of them are private. If you want to know
Speaker 2: more about my hikes with my dog, then you have
Speaker 2: to be a paid subscriber. If you want to know
Speaker 2: more about the stuff. That's actually the kind of thing
Speaker 2: I want to say to the broader world. You don't
Speaker 2: have to be a paid subscriber. It's free. That's the
Speaker 2: point of it. It's like the opposite of freemium, like
Speaker 2: and Also, you can listen to other cool Zone Media podcasts.
Speaker 2: You can listen to Hood Politics with prop which is
Speaker 2: amazing and has been what I listened to while cooking recently,
Speaker 2: and also burning track. I would never burn trash. I
Speaker 2: live in the country, but I would never even burn cardboard.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't do that.
Speaker 1: That's wrong.
Speaker 2: It's the end of the episode. By everyone, cool People
Speaker 2: Who did.
Speaker 1: Cool Stuff is a production of cool Zone Media.
Speaker 3: For more podcasts and cool Zone Media, visit our website
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