1 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: Welcome, Dick. It happened here the podcast that you're listening 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:10,880 Speaker 1: to right now. It's your host, Christopher Long, and we 3 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: are back with part two of our interview with Eli 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 1: Friedman about the reason protests in China. I want to 5 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,760 Speaker 1: go back and talk about lying flat and that whole 6 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: kind of I don't know movement discourse that was happening 7 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: last year, because it seems like the kind of I 8 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: don't know if nihilism is the right word, but this 9 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: kind of like collective understanding that the whole sort of 10 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: bargain of the Chinese social system of you know, and 11 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:40,919 Speaker 1: this was to some extent extended to everyone, right, like 12 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: the bargain of the Chinese social system of everyone everyone, 13 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: keep your head down, will get rich together. It suddenly 14 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: became clear that this wasn't gonna happen, And you know, 15 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I think like in some sense it's possible 16 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: to sort of like, you know, you can you can 17 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: put on your sort of like hard materialist hat and 18 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: you can like look at the number of hammers banging 19 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: out and you can just look at the chirp of 20 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: Chinese GDP graph of the last decade and be like, Okay, well, 21 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 1: so eventually like what what what? What? It hit like 22 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: two percent? Eventually we were going to have protests. But yeah, 23 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 1: I guess, I guess I I wanted to talk a 24 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:18,479 Speaker 1: bit about like, yeah, what line flat was? We covered 25 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:19,960 Speaker 1: this on the show a long time ago when it 26 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 1: was happening, But and then also sort of how that 27 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: attitude shift was important or wasn't important. I don't know, 28 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: Maybe it wasn't. I think it was, but yeah, I 29 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: think it's very important. Right, So, yeah, you can't just 30 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: be a crude materialist and like mechanically read social protest 31 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: off of some chart of you know, following profitability or 32 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 1: something like that. Um. But there it is a cultural 33 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: expression of real fundamental changes in the organization of the 34 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: Chinese economy. Uh. You know where already talked about how 35 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: the post eighty nine generation was like you go to 36 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: college and like you come out and you know you'll 37 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: you'll be middle class right on average, And that's just 38 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: not at all the case anymore. And young people in 39 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: China and and older people, middle aged people you know, 40 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: who are who have children, who are who are going 41 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: through the system, um, feel immense pressure in like immense 42 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: competition in all spheres of life beginning from a young 43 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 1: age in elementary school, all the way up through high school, 44 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 1: through the super competitive and intense university admissions process, and 45 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 1: then after graduating university and getting a job, and then 46 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:30,959 Speaker 1: getting a job that can you know, um uh, you 47 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: can earn enough money to be able to afford an apartment. 48 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: And so here we have to understand you know, the 49 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: cost of housing and all of the other costs associated 50 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: with social reproduction. So the like the cost of care workers. Right, 51 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:45,359 Speaker 1: if middle class people in places like Shanghai and Beijing 52 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:48,919 Speaker 1: expect to have domestic workers, um, you know, looking after 53 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,239 Speaker 1: their children, they expect to be able to hire tutors 54 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:53,519 Speaker 1: who can um, you know, and comtutor their children in 55 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: English or in math um. And so just people feel 56 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 1: under unbelievable sure, and this is in a situation that 57 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: part of the reason that the pressure has is really 58 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 1: ramped up is that there are fewer good paying jobs. 59 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: You know, youth unemployment now in China is around um 60 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: and so one of the responses to that is just 61 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:19,079 Speaker 1: forget about it. We're you know, we're gonna lie flat, 62 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: We're gonna we're gonna reject all of this. There's different 63 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: expressions and I don't actually the sort of like you know, 64 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: sociologists and me is like, well, we don't actually have 65 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: numbers to know how many people are are lying flat 66 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: and like that is true, Like maybe most people are 67 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 1: still just going to work and you know, doing their job, 68 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: but there's enough you know, stories, and certainly in terms 69 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: of cultural residence of people just doing the bare minimum 70 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 1: at work or working for short periods of time, earning 71 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: just enough money to survive and not worrying about meeting 72 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: those kind of social expectations around buying a car, buying 73 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: an apartment and getting married, having kids, because people just 74 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: see it as as kind of it's kind of hopeless. Um. 75 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: And so I think that's a really important backdrop because 76 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: we have to understand that some level that these protests 77 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: are about a sense of hopelessness, right be at economic opportunities, 78 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: be at the political system where cigent being is going 79 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: to rain as long as he wants, or be at 80 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: zero COVID, where you know, at any given moment, you're 81 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:17,840 Speaker 1: gonna be locked inside your apartment and you're not gonna 82 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 1: be able to see your friends or or do anything. 83 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 1: So um. Yeah, So I think it's very relevant. Yeah, 84 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 1: And I wanted to, I guess also to This is 85 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: something I talked about on this podcast a lot, but 86 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: I need to, like I don't like drill into people's heads, 87 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: like just the sheer amount that people in China are working, 88 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: just like like the number of hours, a number of 89 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 1: days a week, the the amount of effort that is 90 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: being put in is like it is, it is. It 91 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: is a level of Rowster plus value extraction that like 92 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: like like most places in the world haven't seen in 93 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:58,039 Speaker 1: like a court like in like half a century. It 94 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: is like or even longer than that. Like it is, 95 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:05,840 Speaker 1: it is a a truly stunning, like a truly stunning 96 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: level of exploitation in terms of things like nine six 97 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: in terms of the people who are working schedules in 98 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,039 Speaker 1: a way worse than that, who don't really ever get 99 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: like talked about because they're not tech workers or they're 100 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 1: not people who have sort of like a platform Chinese society. Yeah, 101 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: it's it's extremely normalized, you know, I mean, like the 102 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: thing which which first of all, it is maybe worth 103 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,479 Speaker 1: mentioning that China legally has a forty hour work week. 104 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 1: You're only allowed to work thirty six hours of overtime 105 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 1: on month, right, so probably you know, not more than 106 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: forty nine or fifty hours a week. That's that's like 107 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 1: the legal the legal standard. Nobody even remotely pretends like 108 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:48,359 Speaker 1: that is a thing in any industry. There's legal debates 109 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 1: about like whether it applies to professional, white collar you know, 110 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: salaried workers or not. But um, you know, when the 111 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: thing came out and there was a pretty cool i 112 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: think movement based mostly online among tech workers, it was 113 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: it was great. It was very inspiring. And also every 114 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 1: single blue collar worker like we've been waking units six 115 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: for decades, you know, um, and so so it is 116 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 1: it is very normal across these these different kinds of 117 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: of stratum for sure. Um, one of the cool things 118 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: about ninetight six is people were we're revolting against it 119 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: and saying like this is an unacceptable way to live. 120 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: And again it comes back to this whole thing of 121 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: like all of these feelings of you know, these enhanced 122 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 1: pressures right where it's just like how do I live 123 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:39,799 Speaker 1: in this city? How do I find like decent housing? 124 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 1: Like if you know, if I want to have like 125 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: a social life, which is the thing that some people 126 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 1: in their twenties want to have, you know, like how 127 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 1: do I do that? It's impossible under those circumstances. Um 128 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: so so again, like you can't read these movements mechanically 129 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: off of these these uh, these structural changes. But like 130 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: that is a thing that has been happening that is unresolved. 131 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: It's not at least for the you know, the blank 132 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,040 Speaker 1: paper protesters, the kind of the more elite students and stuff, 133 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: they haven't specifically articulated um, their grievances as labor demands, um. 134 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: But it's it's at least an important backdrop to what's 135 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: happening today. Yeah, and I think it's remember like how 136 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: I think I think this was like Mide twenty nine keeen. 137 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: I'm trying remember when I when I saw this specific video. 138 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: But there there there, there there was a video from 139 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: the Hong Kong protests that was like it's always it was. 140 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: It was like literally one of these classic like like 141 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: sort of Twitter things, but like what do you want out? 142 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: What do you want to do after the revolution? And 143 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: it was like most of it was like I want 144 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: to start a bakery, like I want to work in 145 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: a library. And it strikes me that there's these things 146 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: that get subsumed under you know, when when when when 147 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: you see a pro democracy movement, right when when you 148 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: see you know, like the sort of well, I guess 149 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 1: that there's something interesting to hear about the Like like 150 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: day one of the protests, there were a lot of 151 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: videos that we're talking about Iran, and that kind of 152 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: seemed to like like the very early videos were about 153 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: sort of solidarity with the protests in the room sheet 154 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: and then like it was like it was like specifically 155 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: tying that to Iran and then to sort of pro 156 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 1: democracy demands, and then later on you get the sort 157 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: of like like the Shanghai like down with the party denimping, 158 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 1: like we went to occracy and free speech stuff. But 159 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: it strikes me that like a lot of the times 160 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: when you see people making those demands, it's because they 161 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: think that like you know, it's like there there there's 162 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 1: a whole set of of like things that they like, 163 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: things that they believe about the future and about what 164 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: will happen in the future that are like not articulated 165 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: in the demands, but if you talked about if you 166 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: talk about them, like if you talk to people about 167 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:57,959 Speaker 1: what they think is going to happen after that, there's 168 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: this whole sort of like opening up of stuff that 169 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 1: they think will be like the necessary results of like 170 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 1: the end of the one party state. And it's like, 171 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: you know, I don't want him, Like I don't know, 172 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: I had this debate a lot with like, like there's 173 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: kind of like Chinese international student you get in the 174 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: US who like comes to the US and it's like 175 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: immediately like enormously enamored with the US. It's it's it's 176 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,439 Speaker 1: sort of the mirror image of how we have a 177 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: bunch of people who are like incredibly enamored with the 178 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: Chinese state, and then you get people who come here 179 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 1: and are like incredibly enamored the American state, and it's like, well, yeah, okay, 180 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: this politician will see you and they will talk to you. However, Comma, 181 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 1: in about two years they will be voting to throw 182 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: you in prison. So like, but obviously, like both people 183 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: in China understand the Chinese system sucks and that the 184 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: promises that people like in the US belief about it 185 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: are fake. And then people in the US understand that 186 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 1: you can get a multiparty democracy and things because they'll 187 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 1: be absolutely shit. But yeah, yeah, you know, it strikes 188 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: me that there's a lot of stuff sort of embedded 189 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 1: in in in these demands that are like not really 190 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: explod articulated until later. And then that's also, I guess 191 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: been a hard part about these protests that like I 192 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: don't know, it's hard to get information out. You can 193 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: get shortened views with people. Mostly what you're getting are 194 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: like thirty seconds of footage of people yelling at a cop, right, yeah, yeah, 195 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: I mean there's a lot going on. Like if you 196 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 1: have this one, this tiny little opening, and then instantly 197 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 1: you have protests in like all of these cities all 198 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: over the country, dozens of universities, protests among you know, 199 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 1: working class migrants, like middle class people in Shanghai, like, 200 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: you know, all all across the country. Like that suggests 201 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: that people have a variety of sets of grievances and 202 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: they're kind of funneling them through this this meta narrative 203 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 1: around ending the lockdown, which is not to diminish the 204 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 1: significance of the actual lockdowns, which are are called causing 205 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: real human suffering. But there's definitely a lot going on, 206 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: and you know, one of the big ones is what's 207 00:10:55,600 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 1: happening in Shinjong, Like it's we still don't really know 208 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: how Weakers are feeling about all of this. The fact 209 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 1: that like all of the all the Protestants in the 210 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: big Eastern cities are about commemorating what happened in ermchy 211 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 1: Uh in a fire that killed mostly, if not exclusively, Weaker. 212 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:17,319 Speaker 1: It's like that that that deserves to be talked about. Um, 213 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 1: We don't really know how like the Han people on 214 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: the streets in the Eastern cities, like if they're thinking 215 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: about this this backdrop of you know, massive repression, surveillance 216 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: and mass internment of of Weakers and other Muslim minorities. Um. 217 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 1: But that's another thing. Uh And and I think the 218 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 1: same thing goes for the treatment of migrant workers in 219 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: in fox Con and these other um blue collar workers 220 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: who were put into the closed loop. Like to what 221 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 1: extent our urban um Han people still kind of willing 222 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 1: to go along with sacrificing migrant workers and treating them 223 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: as as as second class citizens, or is their possibility 224 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 1: of developing some real sense of of solidarity um with 225 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: ending not just the closed loop, but ending you know, 226 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 1: like kuko based discrimination, ending the camps in shin Jong. 227 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 1: You know, I mean, you can kind of spin out 228 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: from there, if if you are interested in thinking about 229 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 1: what it would mean to democratize China in like a 230 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: in a robust sense of the word, I think points 231 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 1: that are never thing about these protests that are complicated, right, 232 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: which is that like they are cross class in a 233 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 1: lot of ways, but I don't know, it seems to 234 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: me like the way they're manifesting is very much down 235 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: class lines. Like Okay, I genuinely don't understand what's going 236 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 1: on in Guangho. That like every single video I see 237 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: at Guangho is like seventy people throwing bottles at a cop, 238 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: and like every video I see out of like Shanghai 239 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: is like six people holding a piece of paper. But 240 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 1: it very much seems like, you know, like when when 241 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: when when when the cops are getting to like these 242 00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: these sort of like these working class neighborhood these neighborhoods 243 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: that are like a informal housing, these neighborhoods that are 244 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: full of migrant workers. There were these really really intense 245 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: conflicts with the police in ways that like kind of 246 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 1: aren't happening. Well, I mean, okay, that's because the kind 247 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: of stuff seems to be happening in a room sheet. 248 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: And I think it's happening there partially because you know, 249 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: this is like well okay, I don't know off thought 250 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: in my head whether it's more militarized than Tibet, but 251 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: like one of the most militarized, like one of the 252 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: most heavily police places in China. And then also people 253 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: are just really like the the immediate and palpable anger 254 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:32,959 Speaker 1: seems to be the highest there because you know, I 255 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: mean like like it you're you're going to be more 256 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:38,839 Speaker 1: piste off when it's people in your city or like 257 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:42,439 Speaker 1: you know, you you maybe were like three blocks away 258 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:47,559 Speaker 1: from this fire. Yeah, like these people. But yeah, one 259 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: of one piece about about Urch is that they've been 260 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: in some form of lockdown for like a hundred days, 261 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, so that's not and and part of 262 00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 1: that has to do with the fact that it is 263 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: this colonial setting where they feel like they can do 264 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:03,319 Speaker 1: things to people that they can't do in Beijing and 265 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: Channg like people in San are not going to do that, right, 266 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: It's just like it's inconceivable. Um, there's obviously a lot 267 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: of Han people in Ear and she is actually a 268 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: majority Han. Now yeah, I think, yeah, um that that 269 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: sounds right to me, and shin Jong is increasingly Han 270 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: as well, although I believe we are still constitute a plurality. 271 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: So you know, there's just like each the lockdowns kind 272 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: of filtered down to these different localities and into different 273 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 1: communities with their different social and class compositions in different 274 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 1: kinds of ways and have different kinds of effects. Right, 275 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: So you can put people in lockdown in shin Jong 276 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: for a hundred days and they're going to be really 277 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: pissed when they get out. In the case of Guang Joe, 278 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: you know, this was also part of the sequence that 279 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 1: I think has been written out of the official narrative. 280 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: It's not it wasn't just fox Con. You had the 281 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: initial fox Con escape in late October early November, and 282 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: then you had these pretty intense riots that happened in 283 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 1: Guang Joe, but were in these urban villages, so called 284 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: urban villages largely informal housing, very densely populated, that are 285 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 1: overwhelmingly migrant workers. In this case, it was mostly people 286 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: from Hubei Um, which is which is where Wuhan is 287 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: and Um and so you know, just those migrant communities 288 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: were put into lockdown in Guangzho. So if you were 289 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 1: over in yeah, if you over in Tianaha District, which 290 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: is the sort of the the newer, like fancier part 291 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 1: of Guangho with lots of high rises, Um, you know, 292 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: those places were not under lockdown, and so they they 293 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: put the migrant communities, and I saw some like really 294 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: not nice stuff, you know, people just being like, oh yeah, 295 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: you know. The the local Guangjo people on the other 296 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: side of the river are just like going about their 297 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: life and and they're they're okay with what's happening to 298 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 1: the migrants. And the migrants were, as is the case 299 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 1: in some of these earlier lockdowns, actually facing real subsistence crisis, 300 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: like they didn't have enough food to eat, and they 301 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: couldn't leave to try to get food. Um. So that's 302 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: why you saw these super intense riots. And that's why 303 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: you see them confronting the police and you know, screaming 304 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 1: at them, throwing things at them. You see tear gas, 305 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: all of these things. I think. So I think that's 306 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: the only place I've seen tear gas so far, Like 307 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: maybe in a room sheet. I'm not there may have 308 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 1: been a video, I don't I don't remember specifically their 309 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: room sheet, but definitely like only place have seen that 310 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 1: level of repression. Yeah, yeah, no, it was, it was 311 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: I mean, you know the Jung Joe Fox con was 312 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: probably the most violent and the larger scale. Um, but 313 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 1: you know that was it was a little bit different. 314 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 1: I Gwang Joe. It's kind of like smaller streets they're fighting, 315 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: you know, street by street. So um yeah, so they 316 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: have a different experience of people in Shanghai. Again not 317 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: to minimize their demands, and I think it's it's important 318 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: for people to find points of commonality, um against this policy. Um, 319 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 1: but it's you know, it's not like that if if 320 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: you're if you're a middle class person Han person in Shanghai, 321 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: which is again not to minimize the very real difficulties 322 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: that those folks have been facing. Is well something this 323 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: kind of you know, I think that there there there's 324 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:05,479 Speaker 1: there's like another group of people who should probably talk 325 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: about a little bit, which is like this sort of 326 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 1: downwardly mobile class a business owners who have been kind 327 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 1: of just getting annihlated by the lockdowns. And does that 328 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 1: that happen in the US too, Although the Chinese version 329 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: of it seems they're like less marginally less absolutely psychotic, 330 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: Like they haven't tried, but they haven't tried to like 331 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 1: kidnap a governor yet, Like they're not like they're not 332 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 1: as fascist as their American counterparts. Yeah, but it's it's 333 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: it seems it seems like there's a kind of interesting 334 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: I don't know, there's there's a class dynamic that kind 335 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:44,920 Speaker 1: of reminds me of occupy and that you have this 336 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 1: sort of like kind of tenuous alliance between like some 337 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: some parts of the working class, these elite students, and 338 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 1: like this downwardly mobile middle class. But it strikes me that, 339 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, that's the sort of a finding 340 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 1: thing about occupying. I think like the defining thing about 341 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: the whole sort of two thousand eleven doesn't thirteen wave 342 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: of protests was that like it was it was really 343 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: really easy to get people together into a physical space, 344 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:13,919 Speaker 1: and when when you were in that single physical space, 345 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: it was like, you know, it's not it's not like 346 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: classes appeared, but it was like, you know, it was, 347 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:20,360 Speaker 1: it was, it was. It was. It was a way 348 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 1: in which sort of like classes were mixing and you 349 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: could form this new kind of like identity based around 350 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: like what you're doing in this place, and it doesn't 351 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: really seem like that's possible here. It really seems like, 352 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: I don't know, like there's this huge like you know, 353 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 1: this this is a protest that is like happening in 354 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: a lot of different places at the same time. But 355 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: it's like it doesn't. Yeah, the segmented they don't and 356 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:46,159 Speaker 1: they don't they don't really have a sort of like 357 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: cohesive social identity that in a way that you could 358 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 1: get out of a bunch of people being in the 359 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: same place. Yeah. No, I think that's right. I mean 360 00:18:55,800 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 1: they're spatially segmented. Um. Something someone pointed out out on Twitter. 361 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 1: I can't remember who, but they're drawing comparisons to the 362 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,920 Speaker 1: protests and the kind of the physical arrangements where people 363 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 1: are living and so particularly given you know, the online censorship, 364 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:13,120 Speaker 1: like that's been really important. So you have these worker 365 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 1: dormitories and fox con like you can organize by actually 366 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,919 Speaker 1: talking to people with student dormitories, right, Um, and then 367 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 1: you have much smaller protests among the you know, the 368 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: middle class people who are able to circulate things online. 369 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:27,199 Speaker 1: And so the consequence of that is is they are 370 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: pretty segmented and I think, you know, everyone has their 371 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 1: own grievance with zero COVID, but these grievances are actually 372 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: pretty different. Right, So the fox con workers don't like 373 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:39,959 Speaker 1: the closed loop management system where you know, where they 374 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: can't leave, where, where they're subjected to unsafe conditions, etcetera. Um, 375 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: you know, the petty bourgeoise like they don't like the 376 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 1: fact that there's no foot traffic you know, coming into 377 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: their shops. Right. And um, I don't know if you 378 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: saw the video of the guy like kicking down the 379 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 1: wall with a soup latal and it specifically, yeah, I 380 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: mean it was it was very theatrical, dramatic and uh 381 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: a great video you know in terms of like the 382 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: class position and yeah, you can see how it can 383 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: kind of capsize into fash quickly. Um. And then like 384 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 1: the students, you know, they want to be able to 385 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: live normal student lives and like leave their dormitories. And 386 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,160 Speaker 1: that's the thing that I think students anywhere can associate with. 387 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:22,880 Speaker 1: So it's like, yeah, they're all against the zero COVID policy, 388 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: but then it's kind of like what are their politics 389 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: after that? And I think if if this is going 390 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: to open up, um, you know, some kind of more 391 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: expansive political vision, Like it's gonna be hard to maintain 392 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: that like that unity. Right, the students are already talking 393 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: about like you know, censorship, freedom of speech, those things 394 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: which I support, I think are very good. You're probably 395 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,879 Speaker 1: not gonna get the petty boudgeoisie to like risk arrest 396 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 1: and violence with the cops, you know, over like holding 397 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 1: up a blank white piece of paper, um, you know. 398 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: And then the micrant workers have another whole set of things, 399 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: you know, around like basic like health infrastructure, like you know, 400 00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: can they get access to decent healthcare in the places 401 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:01,440 Speaker 1: where they're where they're living. And that's not going to 402 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 1: resonate to the same extent with the students. So yeah, 403 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:07,880 Speaker 1: the one I think about a lot was like there's 404 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 1: a video going around it this guy being like I 405 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: don't care about politics. I just want to go to 406 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: the movies, and I was like, this is the most 407 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: American person in China, Like this is the one person 408 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: that I'm like, okay, like that, you know, and and 409 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: like that there is that kind of sort of like 410 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 1: I just I just want to live my normal life 411 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 1: like thing that's happening, and then that that I think 412 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: is a kind of recognizable American impulse. But then you 413 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: have the stuff that's like did you see did you 414 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 1: see those pictures that were going around of like the 415 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:35,919 Speaker 1: hospitals they were putting megicant workers in were just like 416 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,119 Speaker 1: the entire bathroom floor is just like covered in poop 417 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 1: and like awful. Yeah, it's like the whole whole bathroom 418 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 1: floors is just flooded. There's like just like the the 419 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: the you can't flush toilet paper down it, so there's 420 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 1: just these like mountains of toilet paper, and I think, like, yeah, 421 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: it's awful. Like that the difference between the people whose 422 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 1: things are like I want to go to the movies 423 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 1: and the people whose demand is like please stop locking 424 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: me in this, like like people like you know that 425 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:05,199 Speaker 1: that was I guess. I guess. The other sort of 426 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:09,119 Speaker 1: lost thing that seemed to be pretty big in Chinese 427 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: social media that I don't that wasn't talked about much 428 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: here was the uh there was this bus that capsized 429 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: that killed like twenty seven people who were being taken 430 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 1: like to a facility to specifically to hold like you know, 431 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: this is like what one of one of these sort 432 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,639 Speaker 1: of like I don't I don't even really want to 433 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: dignify them by calling them hospitals, because they're like, yeah, 434 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: like just a complete disaster. Um. But where were people 435 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,640 Speaker 1: were being held, like held because they had Yeah? Yeah, 436 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: And I don't know, it seems like that there's a 437 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: really big sort of like you know, I mean, I 438 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,160 Speaker 1: guess it's like like the the protests are reflecting all 439 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,680 Speaker 1: of all of the sort of like existing classified in 440 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 1: Chinese society in ways that I think are are pretty 441 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 1: obvious if you look at it, which I guess in 442 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,040 Speaker 1: some sense like this this does strike me as the 443 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: most gentlemin esque thing. But look, the most unuminous thing 444 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 1: about it is the way that the media has been 445 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 1: like specifically covering the grievances of exactly like two groups 446 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 1: of people, which is like the students and like, and 447 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,120 Speaker 1: then all of the labor stuff has just vanished after 448 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:21,120 Speaker 1: about day two. Yeah yeah, yeah for sure. Um. And 449 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 1: I mean I don't have much optimism that that that 450 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: the coverage will change, um, But you know, there there 451 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: is an experience, um that middle class people I think 452 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,440 Speaker 1: have had pretty acutely going back at least to the 453 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 1: Shanghai lockdown, of this realization that there actually are no 454 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: limits on state power, right, And that to them was 455 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: kind of like a shock. You know. They're like, oh, 456 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 1: like I thought I was just gonna be able to 457 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 1: go about my life like as long as I didn't 458 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 1: you know, demand to be able to vote for the president. 459 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,679 Speaker 1: Like I can have a job. I can, um, you know, 460 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:58,959 Speaker 1: go eat hot pot or you know, get whatever kind 461 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,120 Speaker 1: of delicious food I want having in these big cities, 462 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: can travel internationally. You know, all of these things are 463 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 1: you know more or less okay, Um, there's been lots 464 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 1: of you know, there's lots of other people in training 465 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 1: society for him, that's never been the experience, right, most 466 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: importantly the minorities and the workers and the migrant workers 467 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,879 Speaker 1: who have always you know, experienced that raw and unchecked 468 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: power of the state. And so, you know, does does 469 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: this have the capacity to kind of bring them together? 470 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: You know, it's going to be extremely difficult to do, 471 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,159 Speaker 1: especially because there aren't like spaces for political organizing and 472 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: working through these differences in a constructive way. Yeah. I mean, 473 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: I will say that the one thing that kind of 474 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: that strikes me as something that like is just different 475 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,959 Speaker 1: about this cycle is that, like I don't know, I don't, like, 476 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever seen in my lifetime outside 477 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: of like really tiny maoist sex like people openly calling 478 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,879 Speaker 1: for the downfall of the government, like just in in 479 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 1: a kind of like large a stemic way, and like 480 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: it it seems like I don't know, maybe maybe the 481 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: censors will sort of get control back, but it really 482 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 1: seems like there's been this kind of floodgate that's opened 483 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: where suddenly like there's a there's a brief moment where 484 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: like it suddenly became possible to talk about things where 485 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 1: you know, like like two months ago, it was like 486 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: one guy laid aside on a bridge and like this 487 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:25,879 Speaker 1: was this was like the biggest thing that had ever 488 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 1: happened in Chinese society whatever, etcet et cetera. And then suddenly, 489 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: like you know, you just have people on the streets 490 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 1: or Shanghai like just chanting stuff that wasn't even on 491 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 1: that banner, and like, I don't know, like it really 492 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 1: seems like like it's it's not like they've actually like 493 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:44,640 Speaker 1: fully lost control of the country or anything, like they're 494 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 1: not even close to that, but it's it's like the 495 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: sort of like the sort of regime of terror and 496 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 1: fear that had been in place to keep people from 497 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: doing this kind of stuff has fallen off a little bit. Yeah, 498 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I I'd be very curious to know what 499 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: the vibe is like in China, and obviously I have 500 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,719 Speaker 1: not been there for a while. Um, but like, and 501 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,680 Speaker 1: this is wildly speculative, and if you have any Chinese 502 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 1: listeners who want to correct me, I would be glad 503 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 1: to have some more information about this. But my feeling 504 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,919 Speaker 1: from Hofar is that you know, like she Jinping is 505 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: just like you can't you can't say anything about him, 506 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: and that even in like private spaces, you know, people 507 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,360 Speaker 1: just like don't feel like the ability to kind of 508 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: imagine something different and like that has been changed. Like 509 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:34,920 Speaker 1: I don't think we're going to see a lot more 510 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 1: people on the streets chanting down with she be down 511 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 1: with the Communist Party, Like it's you know, it's a 512 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,679 Speaker 1: risky it's a risky thing to do. But I do 513 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: think that like now at least people know that there's 514 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: other other people in the country that are thinking the 515 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: same things that they're thinking. And then at least within 516 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 1: you know, like you know, face to face interactions that 517 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:56,920 Speaker 1: people might be a little bit more willing to kind 518 00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: of say like, oh, like these protests happened, that was 519 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: pretty crazy, like let's talk about that, um and so 520 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,399 Speaker 1: so so that to me is optimistic. UM. And I 521 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:07,919 Speaker 1: do hope that more of this organizing can take place, 522 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 1: you know, offline, because I think that's the only safe 523 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 1: way to do it. Um. So, So yeah, I I 524 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 1: think something has changed significantly. And you see it here, 525 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: you know. I mean, I've been teaching Chinese students for 526 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 1: ten years. Um, there's no question that people are interested, 527 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,679 Speaker 1: um in talking about things now in a in a 528 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: more open way than was the case a couple of 529 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 1: years ago. And like Herreck Cornell, we had we had 530 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 1: a little vigil for um F and G as well, 531 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: and people were chanting, you know, down with Ci Jin 532 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 1: ping um, which is kind of like okay, you're you know, 533 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: you're in the good New York, Like it's not dangerous. Well, 534 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: I think students feel it to be dangerous, and definitely 535 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: a month or two ago would have felt it to 536 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: be quite dangerous. So yeah, and I guess we probably 537 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: shouldn't like completely downplay the fact that like the CCP 538 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 1: has international networks in a way that's for sure, Like 539 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 1: the way tenden to get covered in the press is 540 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 1: very sort of like this kind of like right wing 541 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 1: fear mongering, but's like no, these people do exist, and like, yeah, 542 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 1: like it is possible for you to like tweet something 543 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: while you're in the US and then like someone in 544 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 1: China finds out about it and things start to go 545 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: very badly for you very quickly, and for sure, like 546 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 1: that's that's that's a real danger. That yeah, and regardless 547 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,400 Speaker 1: of how many spies there are, how pervasive they are, 548 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 1: like it is a real experience, real fear. The Chinese 549 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: students here have, right, they don't feel comfortable, you know, 550 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: they might feel more comfortable speaking openly here than they 551 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: do actually within China, but they still don't feel totally free. 552 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: And and that is a very widespread sentiment, I guess 553 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: sort of enclosing, I don't know, might I don't think 554 00:28:55,920 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 1: anyone can really have much of an analysis that's better 555 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 1: than them guessing about what's going to happen next, because 556 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 1: this already was something that like two weeks ago, like 557 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: if you'd ask anyone, like anyone in China or outside 558 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 1: of China who wasn't like I don't know like in 559 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: the following Gong or something, whether whether they were suddenly 560 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: going to be large deal like protested China ever would 561 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 1: have been like are you nuts? But yeah, I'm wondering 562 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 1: how what you think is going to happen next? I 563 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: don't know. My my my sort of tentative read of 564 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: it was like it seems like I don't know. It's 565 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 1: it seems to me that for for a very very 566 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: long time, the Chinese political system was specifically set up 567 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: to stop this, like like this was this was the 568 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: exact thing it was. It was designed to make sure 569 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 1: there would never be another sort of like like that 570 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 1: there would never be a large well and you know, 571 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 1: we don't know how how long this is going to 572 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:53,479 Speaker 1: go on, right, but there was There was never There 573 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: was never supposed to be another street movement that was 574 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: like coordinated between cities that was large and that had 575 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 1: real political to man's and you know, I like, I 576 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: I don't know, Maybe maybe I could, I could be 577 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 1: the most brog I've ever been, but I cannot imagine 578 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 1: this like this specific round of protests really like challenging 579 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: the government at all. Like I don't know, some something 580 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 1: something would have to like I don't know, like aliens 581 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:22,959 Speaker 1: would have to like descend from the sky or something like. 582 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't like, I don't I don't 583 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 1: think they can do it. But the frequency at which 584 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: these kinds of things break out has been increasing steadily 585 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: for the past probably twenty or thirty years. I mean, 586 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,479 Speaker 1: the nineties are sort of a low point for this stuff. 587 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 1: But you know, like if if you're if you're in 588 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: a country like Ecuador, right, you've seen like two pretty 589 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: large scale like mass street movements in like three years, right, 590 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 1: and you know, it's it's it's, it's, it's. It seems 591 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 1: to be sort of broadly the there's there, there's there's 592 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 1: been this sort of like the decaying economic condition to 593 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 1: combined with this like the general decaying ability of the 594 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 1: state to prevent like a subsequent movement from from unfolding. 595 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 1: And so I don't know, like I I my sense 596 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: is that this one's not gonna do anything, but we 597 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: might see another one of these in like three years 598 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 1: or something. Yeah, I don't think we're going to see 599 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: this movement in the in the weeks and months to 600 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 1: come to like cohere into this like massive politically potent 601 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 1: force that has the capacity to either continue to exert 602 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: demands on the central state or threatened state power. Like 603 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: I don't think that that's going to happen. Um, I 604 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 1: do think. I think I think the first thing is 605 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 1: to acknowledge and to chalk up the victories that have 606 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 1: already been Um. One, so Fox foxne workers got paid. 607 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 1: You know, they went out, they rioted something like Fox's like, 608 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 1: here's ten thousand you one for you to leave that 609 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: even for you to do your job right. So like 610 00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 1: and those are workers that came in after the other 611 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 1: workers escaped, so they have been there in quarantine for 612 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 1: like a couple of days, rioted got ten thousand un 613 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: which is like almost U S dollars like they so 614 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: so they did really well. Um And but I think 615 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: more broadly, you know, around the zero COVID the government 616 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: has already made changes. They will never acknowledge we're doing 617 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: this because people protested, like that's not how they operate. 618 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: But um, you know, they said, Okay, we're actually gonna 619 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 1: get more serious about vaccinating people, which is what they 620 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 1: need to do in order to have sort of an 621 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: exit strategy. There have been some some signals, low key 622 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 1: ones about further loosening. I mean, I think that there's 623 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: a real question about how they go about doing this 624 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 1: because if they just let it rip tomorrow, like actually 625 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands and people will die. Yeah. So like 626 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: I think that what they need to do is they 627 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: need to vaccinate people, and they need to build a 628 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 1: real public health infrastructure that includes migrant workers. But you know, 629 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 1: that's we'll see if that happens. So so I think 630 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 1: that those are already victories like which which we should 631 00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 1: which you know, we should take account of. And I 632 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 1: think moving forward, the ability to repress like the the 633 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 1: street demonstrations should not be under underestimated. Like the state 634 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 1: has immense resources at its capacity. I don't think that 635 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 1: we're going to continue to see people chanting, you know, 636 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 1: down with the Communist Party in the streets regularly. Um, 637 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 1: So I think that they'll be able to at least 638 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 1: push that down a little bit and maybe with some concessions, 639 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 1: people will be satisfied. You know, the guy who just 640 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: wants to be able to go to the movie, like 641 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 1: next year at this time, there's a good chance he 642 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 1: will just be able to go to the movies. To 643 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 1: kind of continue with my labor centric perspective, though, I 644 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 1: think it's going to be harder for for workers. I 645 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 1: think it's going to be harder for them to repress 646 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 1: that as long as the closed loop management systems are 647 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: in effect and lockdowns are happening. I mean, it just 648 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 1: puts insane demands on these workers. And there were revolts 649 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 1: against it when it first happened in Shanghai back in April. Uh, 650 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 1: and I think that those will continue to exist. UM. 651 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 1: But I think we'll probably see this kind of reversion 652 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 1: to what's existed for the last couple of decades, which 653 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 1: is lots of you know, small scale, somewhat manageable and 654 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 1: localized protests. The question is, like, does this kind of 655 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 1: open up, um, the possibility of politicization, which we have 656 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,759 Speaker 1: not really seen since nine UM in a in a 657 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,920 Speaker 1: robust way at least, And so does this kind of 658 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: open up some of those possibilities so those local protests 659 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 1: can begin to to speak to each other with some 660 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 1: sort of common language, UM, and and cohere some kind 661 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,840 Speaker 1: of political force that's harder for the state to tame. UM. 662 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 1: We'll see, Yeah, And I guess and I guess the 663 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 1: other sort of X factor here is like can can 664 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 1: can the CCP get the growth rate above like five? No? 665 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 1: But yeah, like that's like yeah, I I I don't. 666 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 1: I don't know how they do it like that. I 667 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 1: don't know, like I I short of like short of 668 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:57,759 Speaker 1: like actually just letting all of the sort of like 669 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 1: like all all of the sort of like slack and 670 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,799 Speaker 1: excess capacity just get like you know, just just like 671 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 1: intentionally tanking the entire economy and just like running all 672 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 1: of these sort of unprofitable business in the ground. Like yeah, 673 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:10,439 Speaker 1: I don't, I don't see how they do that. And 674 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 1: that does seem to me, like you know, to be 675 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:16,759 Speaker 1: a kind of like the sort of like looming horizon over. 676 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 1: I mean this and this is really true of everyone, 677 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 1: like the the sort of looming horizon over, Like every 678 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 1: government in the world has been that the growth rate 679 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,319 Speaker 1: has been collapsing for like the last forty years, and 680 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:30,759 Speaker 1: China was, you know, trying to change the comedy was 681 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,919 Speaker 1: like the last thing that was really driving it. And 682 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:39,280 Speaker 1: that's like not really true anymore. It's it's a disaster. 683 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 1: I mean. And then even even without COVID, it was 684 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:46,120 Speaker 1: sort of like not going great. I mean, it wasn't 685 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 1: like you know, I mean it hadn't reached like it 686 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,800 Speaker 1: hadn't like reached like you know, like recession, or it 687 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,400 Speaker 1: hadn't really reached like sort of post industrialized country levels 688 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 1: of like here's your two percent growth every year, be 689 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:02,279 Speaker 1: happy with it, but like I it out. Yeah, but 690 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 1: but the growth, I mean this is maybe like another 691 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: whole conversation, but like the growth has become less effective, right. 692 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 1: It's it's this like investment led growth. It's there, there's 693 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:17,239 Speaker 1: massive growth in debt, and they can, you know, build 694 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 1: another bridge, build another airport building. I mean, they're not 695 00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 1: building the apartment blocks as much anymore, but they do 696 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,440 Speaker 1: that they can prop up the growth a little bit, right, 697 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 1: But like the fundamental problem that they've been unable to 698 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 1: address is like increasing domestic consumption, you have a more 699 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:34,759 Speaker 1: equitable model of growth. And the reason that they can't 700 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 1: do that is fundamentally a political problem. Like they can't 701 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: figure out a way to give working class people more 702 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 1: money and to give them some social protections, um and 703 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: like until they resolve that political problem, Like I just 704 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 1: don't see them being able to deal with with that 705 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 1: economic problem. So that means you are going to continue 706 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 1: to have this kind of ongoing forms of stagnation. Zero 707 00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 1: COVID really hurts it a lot more. Of course, the 708 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,840 Speaker 1: geo political conflict with the US and and Biden, you know, 709 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,279 Speaker 1: trying to economically kneecap them like that doesn't help. And 710 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,879 Speaker 1: then the demographics of you know, like all of these 711 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: things are making making their lives much more difficult. And 712 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:16,600 Speaker 1: so one way to interpret what's happened, um under under 713 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 1: zero COVID is the expansion of a massive and terrifying 714 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:24,280 Speaker 1: surveillance state that will allow them to weather whatever political 715 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 1: storms are coming in the future. Yeah, and I guess 716 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 1: I don't know. Well, well, well well we'll we'll, we'll see, 717 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 1: we'll see whether that works for them. I am somewhat 718 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:37,399 Speaker 1: skeptical in that, like I don't know, like good luck, 719 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,200 Speaker 1: actually terrible luck. I hope it goes badly for them, 720 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 1: the worst of luck. Yeah. So, Eli, thank you so 721 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 1: much for coming on the show. Yeah, it's been a pleasure. Yeah. 722 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,160 Speaker 1: And Okay, where where can people find you and find 723 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 1: the stuff that you do? Uh well, I'm on Twitter 724 00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,840 Speaker 1: as long as it's still there, um Eli D Friedman 725 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:07,200 Speaker 1: And uh yeah, I'm on the Internet. I don't know, 726 00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:09,320 Speaker 1: that's that's the main place. Come if you're in Ithica, 727 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:12,400 Speaker 1: come on by all right, yeah this this has make 728 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:17,080 Speaker 1: it happen here, drag every government into perpetual and terminal 729 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 1: crisis until it's ops existing. It could Happen here as 730 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,359 Speaker 1: a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from 731 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,359 Speaker 1: cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com, 732 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 1: or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, 733 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 734 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,279 Speaker 1: find sources for It could Happen Here, updated monthly at 735 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,560 Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.