1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb. My regular co host Joe 4 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:20,479 Speaker 1: is out on parental leave. But today I'm going to 5 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:25,639 Speaker 1: be chatting with independent researcher into the archaeology of folk magic, 6 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: Brian Hoggart. He's the author of the excellent book Magical 7 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: House Protection The Archaeology of counter Witchcraft, which I highly recommend. 8 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: So without further ado, let's jump right into the interview. Hi, Brian, 9 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: thanks for coming on the show. So much of your work, 10 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: and certainly your twenty nineteen book, Magical House Protections, revolves 11 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: around the archaeology of counter witchcraft artifacts secreted uh in 12 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: many cases within historic homes. So before we get into 13 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: the varieties and the particulars, what parts of the world 14 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: and what time periods are we predominantly dealing with here, Well, 15 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 1: it's actually worldwide, and I think it's been going on forever, 16 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: to be honest with you, because humans seem to innately 17 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:18,320 Speaker 1: believe in the power of some kind of supernatural evil 18 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:21,479 Speaker 1: and they fear it wherever they exist, whether it's sort 19 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: of tribal society, is all up to sort of quite 20 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: sophisticated societies, and so it's been happening for as long 21 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: as humans have been around. I think I want to 22 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: come back to specifics in detail later, but but what generally, 23 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:38,040 Speaker 1: what sorts of objects are we talking about and where 24 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: do we tend to find them positioned in? Okay, so 25 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:47,320 Speaker 1: I normally work with Western Europe, but also receive reports 26 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: of objects from much further afield as well. And you know, 27 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: within the home, we're talking mainly about hearts and thresholds. 28 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: So wherever there's a fireplace or a chimney, that tends 29 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: to be the aime point of focus for a lot 30 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: of this a lot of these objects and practices. Um. 31 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: And that's because the chimney is always open to the 32 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,959 Speaker 1: sky because it kind of has to be, and so 33 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: it's also the most vulnerable point in the building for 34 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:17,079 Speaker 1: that reason, so at night people fear things coming down 35 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 1: the chimney and also thresholds. So windows and doors obviously 36 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: are also points where the house could kind of leak essentially, 37 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 1: and they would often be protected. And yeah, but literally 38 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: any boundary point within a house, any precious object or 39 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: precious person or precious artifact, can you know you can 40 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 1: find that people have gone to some efforts to protect them. 41 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:44,679 Speaker 1: I hadn't connected the darts and this stil just now 42 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: about mentioning the hearth as being an entry point. I 43 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,399 Speaker 1: guess we see this reflected at least distantly in traditions 44 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 1: of Santa Claus entering a home through the hearth. Yeah. Absolutely, 45 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 1: um in indeed, that goes even further than that, really, 46 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: because yeah, it is the idea of some energy coming 47 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: down the chimney. But but one of the types of 48 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: objects that we often find in homes is concealed shoes. 49 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: And obviously at Christmas you you hanging stocking by the 50 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: by the mantelpiece, which is a similar kind of thing. 51 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: So you're kind of trying to trap some good energy 52 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: instead of some bad energy. Now, early in the book, 53 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: you do a tremendous and uh and seasonally appropriate, I 54 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: think job of describing what the experience of church may 55 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: have been like, Especially to a pre Reformation English commoner. 56 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: It sounds incredibly spooky and and really and really not 57 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: at all that comforting. I was wondering if you might 58 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: sort of summarize just a little bit of the energy here. YEA, 59 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 1: So when in the medieval Britain, when churches were still 60 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 1: essentially Catholic before the Protestant Reformation, um church rituals were 61 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: usually conducted in Latin, so most commoners or most parishioners 62 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: wouldn't necessarily understand the language that was being spoken. And 63 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: in fact, it's quite widely assested that a lot of 64 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 1: priests didn't understand the words of the Latin rituals either. 65 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: Then they learned a lot of them by rote, so 66 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: they just they knew the sounds, they knew how to 67 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: emulate a Latin ritual rather than perform one. And those 68 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: rituals would take place behind a screen which was called 69 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: the rude screen, which is basically a wooden screen that's 70 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,160 Speaker 1: been pierced in a decorative manner so you could see behind, 71 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:30,840 Speaker 1: you can see through it, but not really clearly, a 72 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 1: little bit gauzy and um. And there would also be 73 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: incense being burned as well, and candle light, so you've 74 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 1: got a sort of spooky language that you don't understand 75 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 1: Latin conducted in a kind of foggy, candlelit misty environment, 76 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 1: which is quite spooky, as you say. And on top 77 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:52,799 Speaker 1: of the rude screen, which was called a rude screen, 78 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: because it would have the rude on top of it, 79 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: which is the image of Christ that judgment day quite foreboding. 80 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: And of course a medieval church would often be decorated 81 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:05,600 Speaker 1: with art, sometimes relating to the devil, sometimes relating to saints, 82 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: So they all kinds of supernatural imagery all around you, 83 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: as well as the candle lighte the incense, the slightly 84 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: opaque view of the ritual. Yeah, it's it's really quite 85 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: a magical environment, and I think that that's how a 86 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: lot of people felt about it. Yeah. You mentioned in 87 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: this section that, for instance, one might not have like 88 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 1: a clear idea of how the figure of Jesus factors 89 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: into everything, which of course is very easy to take 90 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 1: for granted today, especially with among modern Christians and people 91 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 1: in Western society. But it's the idea here that you 92 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 1: would have sort of the vague structure of the Christian religion, 93 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,919 Speaker 1: and then just the common individual is then having to 94 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 1: sort of fill in the gaps with other supernatural ideas. Yeah, 95 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: to an extent, I think it would vary quite a 96 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 1: lot depending on how literate someone was or wasn't, and 97 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 1: how inquiring mind was as to whether they were actually 98 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 1: asking their priests the answer to any of these questions 99 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 1: or not. But yeah, I think there's sort of overarching 100 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:11,840 Speaker 1: feeling that a God exists, and they would hear about Jesus, 101 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: and they would hear about Mary, etcetera, but they wouldn't 102 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: necessarily know what their relationship was. So I'm sure I've 103 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: read an account before where was someone was asked, you know, 104 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: do you know who God and Jesus are? And they 105 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: would think that isn't Jesus, God's uncle, And they would 106 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:29,840 Speaker 1: be really unclear about the familiar relationships that that we 107 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: might now think exists between them. So how does the 108 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: Reformation change this scenario? Well, technically it's the reformations because 109 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: there was like several attempts to kind of move it along. 110 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,919 Speaker 1: But yeah, essentially it was about trying to dispel some 111 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: of the superstitions that might have aggregated around belief in 112 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:52,160 Speaker 1: God and Jesus over the years. I think there was 113 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 1: about a thousand years worth of people sort of augmenting 114 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:57,600 Speaker 1: what was going on in churches with their own ideas, 115 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: and the Reformation were supposed to be about stripping all 116 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: that away and getting back to the actual text of 117 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: the Bible, particularly the New Testament, not the Old Testament, 118 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: and trying to worship Jesus principally um, and also God 119 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: that you know, with the whole Trinity, the Holy Ghost, 120 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: and pretty much getting rid of Mary um, and getting 121 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: rid of all the saints and all these other things 122 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 1: that have kind of grown in importance over the thousand 123 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: or tho years before. So how does the period of 124 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: witchcraft persecution factor into all of this, um, Because I'm 125 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: to understanding that much of this takes place in post 126 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: medieval times, no matter how much we might want to 127 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: shove it back into prior centuries. That's a that's an 128 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 1: interesting one because I think that belief in witchcraft and 129 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: beliefs about witchcraft actually didn't really change very much during 130 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: the period of witchcraft persecution. There were some new ones 131 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: brought in, but essentially the core beliefs about witchcraft were 132 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: essentially the same, in my opinion, They just became magnified. 133 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: And that was partly through the popularity of new pamphlets 134 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: and literature and the printing press, you know, the advent 135 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: of the printing press um, and partly through I guess 136 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: um in a way, I think the stripping away of 137 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: some of the superstitious aspects or the saintly aspects as well, 138 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: you know, where you could appeal for help as particular saints, 139 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: and all of that being stripped away post Reformation, I 140 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: think meant that people had a bit more of a 141 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: need to address supernatural feelings in their lives almost, And 142 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 1: I think it's possible that witchcraft beliefs and worry about it, 143 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: we're almost they sort of came into the vacuum, if 144 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,079 Speaker 1: you like, created by the absence of a lot of 145 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,079 Speaker 1: the things that people used to do pre Reformation. Um, 146 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: that's a fairly contentious argument. It's not that simple. You know. 147 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:54,559 Speaker 1: It's probably more to do with the printing press than 148 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: anything else. And the fact that sort of very salacious 149 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 1: and exciting story reads about witches and devils were being 150 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: circulated in pamphlet form and then literate people, people who 151 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:09,559 Speaker 1: could read with then uh, you know, regurgitate these two 152 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: people who couldn't and in this kind of heightened awareness 153 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 1: of the fact that there could be more danger around 154 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 1: than there was before concerning witchcraft. So you discuss some 155 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 1: of this in the book as being like the elite 156 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: understanding of witchcraft, and I guess ultimately demonology right, that's 157 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: that's again coming down through printed material. And then is 158 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: it kind of like bumping heads and then meshing with 159 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: ideas that would have been more commonly held among more 160 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: common and and and less literate people. Yeah, yeah, it's 161 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: kind of, Um, we get we get this kind of 162 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 1: very much. History gives this more of a top down 163 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,599 Speaker 1: look at what went on, whereas archaology tends us to 164 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 1: give us a bottom up kind of look at what 165 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:56,679 Speaker 1: went on. And and really, other than Ralph Merrifield before 166 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: before me Um and some of his colleagues have been 167 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: doing work but not published. Um, there wasn't really an 168 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 1: awful lot of people looking at witchcraft from the archaeology angle. 169 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: So it's all we've ever seen really is from the 170 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: history side, top down, and I think an awful lot 171 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,719 Speaker 1: has been neglected or missed for that reason. And so 172 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:17,959 Speaker 1: you know, these ideas like like for example, I'm talking 173 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: about concealed shoes. Again, some of our earliest examples of 174 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: that from the fourteenth century, but we've also got examples 175 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 1: of it from the nineteen seventies, you know, and so 176 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 1: so it's been a it's been a complete continuum, you know, 177 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:32,559 Speaker 1: the which the period of the Witch Trials, as people 178 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: think of it, came and went, but this practice has 179 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: steadily been carrying on the whole time. You know. It's 180 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 1: you know, you can say that it had a period 181 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 1: of magnification during the witch Trials, Yeah, but it's hasn't 182 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 1: gone away and it didn't leave, you know, and it's um, 183 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 1: it's always been there. So the common people, if you like, 184 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: the sort of illiterate people, maybe continue doing what they 185 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 1: were doing. And then they started to hear about these 186 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: apparently new dangers or more powerful witches, or that there 187 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: was some kind of panic going on, and it just 188 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 1: raised everybody's fears. So there was always some fear. You know, 189 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 1: there was general fear of the dark, general fear of 190 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: the supernatural, especially particularly about around sleep, you know, because 191 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: how could you protect your house when you're asleep. So 192 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: that's one of the big worries that people had. But 193 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:27,439 Speaker 1: but you know, during the period of the some people 194 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: call it the witch craze. I don't really like that term, 195 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: but you know, the kind of excitement about which is 196 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: obviously fear was heightened, so people did more things to 197 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: try and keep them away. And that's when you know, 198 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: for example, witch bottles were a direct, in my opinion, 199 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: a direct response to to the witch trials, to the 200 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 1: period of heightened fear. But but the rest that all 201 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 1: the other things seemed to have just become magnified, if 202 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: you're like more important during that time. But they've always 203 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: been there. Now you've you've mentioned which Bible, so that 204 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: this might be a good time to to to ask 205 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: what is a witch bottle? What would it contain? And 206 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: where were they found? Okay, so witch bottles were there's 207 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: a there's an awful lot of detail here. They were 208 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:20,079 Speaker 1: essentially German stoneware bottles, which in Germany were known as 209 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:24,079 Speaker 1: Bartman's stoneware, nothing to do with the Simpsons. And basically 210 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: Germans had this the ability to make stoneware, which is 211 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:31,839 Speaker 1: this non porous, really hard bottle, which in Britain we 212 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 1: couldn't make. We only had an earthenware. So so basically 213 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 1: when we found out about stoneware, we wanted these bottles, 214 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:40,439 Speaker 1: and so they were shipped over by hundreds of thousands, 215 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: usually filled with beer or wine, and that beer or 216 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: wine would be consumed, then the bottle will be cast away. 217 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: But the thing is, because these bottles were so good 218 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: that often be reused again and again and again. But 219 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: the significant thing about them is that they have a 220 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 1: really evil looking mask of a man on it, so 221 00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: they look quite anthropomorphic. So these bottles are the salt 222 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:03,080 Speaker 1: glaze which gives some a kind of leathery skin like appearance. 223 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 1: Then they have this beastly looking face on the neck, 224 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: and then they have a big ground belly which often 225 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: has a kind of armorial shield on it, which sometimes 226 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 1: looks a little bit occult or a little bit kind 227 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: of a spooky and sometimes as well they're quite sort 228 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 1: of petal like, quite flower like, which is which resembles 229 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: another one of the marks that often crop up in 230 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: this area of study as well. And so for that reason, 231 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 1: you know, if you were going to do anything magical, 232 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: you would want to use this bottle because it looks anthropomorphic. 233 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: It's quite spooky looking bottle. You couldn't imagine a better 234 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:35,079 Speaker 1: bottle for doing magic with. Put it that way if 235 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: you want, if you're seeing at home and you wanted 236 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: to do something, so anyway, these bottles we quite often 237 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: find them underneath the floor, sometimes up to a meter deep, 238 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: underneath them flags there in front of a hearth, or 239 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: directly underneath half sometimes integrated into an ingle nook into 240 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 1: the wall, and they're often upside down in the ground. 241 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 1: We're not entirely sure why the upside down thing happens. 242 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: But inside the boss ors this is when we x 243 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: ray them, they often show evidence of lots of pins 244 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: and nails that have a created or aggregated and coagulated 245 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 1: around the neck, whether whether the gravity has just taking 246 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: them down towards the neck. And then when we open 247 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: them and have a look inside, they've often got some liquid, 248 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: a big lock of hair, sometimes of thorns or other pins. Importantly, 249 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 1: the pins and nails which are found inside are usually 250 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: deliberately bent as well. And when I say deliberately, we 251 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: have assessed the angle of the bend, and it seems 252 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: like in many cases these nails and pins all been 253 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: bent around the same iron pole. So someone's deliberately sat 254 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: there and gone around lots of pins and nails before 255 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: adding them into the bottle. So there's clearly an element 256 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: of sort of ritual or like a quite a lot 257 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: of effort goes into putting it together, and then of 258 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: course you have to dig this really deep hole to 259 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: to put it down there. And so essentially what we've 260 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 1: got is an anthropomorphic bottle, so it looks like a 261 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: human and inside it we have the liquid, it turns 262 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: out through analysis is human urine, and so we've got 263 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: a humans urine in there. We often also have nail clippings, 264 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: nail pairings in there, a big lock of hair, and 265 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:10,119 Speaker 1: then all these pins and nails that have been deliberately 266 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: and meticulously bent before being added into the bottle, which 267 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 1: has then been sealed with a bung or a cork 268 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: and then buried upside down under the earth, covered over 269 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: and a big flagstone put on top of it. So 270 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: it's quite an effort, isn't it Quite a lot of effort, right, 271 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 1: And what what what I think is happening here is 272 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 1: that because of all of these bottles are found by 273 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 1: the hearth, or in the immediate vicinity of the hearth, 274 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: so that we again we've got this focus on the hearth. 275 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: And so the idea is, if something bad like a 276 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: spell or an energy or maybe a demon or something 277 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: like that is potentially traveling down your chimney trying to 278 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: attack you, it's plunging down the chimney trying to find you, 279 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: it detects this human like figure that smells like you. 280 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: It's got your hair and it, it's got your finger 281 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: nail clippings in it, it's got your urine in it, 282 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: and it dives down to attack you. And when it 283 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 1: gets inside the bottle, it then gets impaled on all 284 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: these dead pins, which you've deliberately killed one by one 285 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 1: before putting them into the bottles. So there's kind of 286 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: like the ghosts of pins there to work against the 287 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 1: ghosts that's trying to attack you. And so there are 288 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: some some bits of folklore that suggests that spirits and 289 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: which is aren't very good at traveling backwards, so once 290 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: they get into a spot, they find it difficult to 291 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: get out. So maybe there's an element of that like 292 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: a kind of trap as well. So like a trap 293 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 1: slash impaling people, you know, a decoy that has a 294 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: trap within it. That seems to be what's going on, 295 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: but confusingly there is there are some texts that relate 296 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: that talk about witch bottles that describe something different, right, 297 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: So there are several texts in the late seventeenth century 298 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: that talk about this idea of boiling a witch bottle 299 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: that if you think you're being bewitched or if you 300 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: know someone who's been bewitched. You can take a bottle 301 00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: and you can get them to urinate into it, and 302 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 1: you can add some and nails to it and boil 303 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: it on a fire. You've got to bug it up 304 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 1: and boil it on a fire. And the idea is 305 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: that this will that the bottle will act as kind 306 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:12,400 Speaker 1: of a substitute bladder for the you know, and by 307 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 1: boiling it, you're causing pain to the witch. Because they 308 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 1: had this belief that if you're bomber witched, there's something 309 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 1: of the essence of the witch inside you as well. 310 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: So so if you then urinate into this bottle and 311 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: do something to it, it's going to have an effect 312 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: on the witch. And so the the thinking is in 313 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: these texts um that excruciating pain is course to the witch, 314 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:37,239 Speaker 1: who will then come seeking you out and will come 315 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:39,199 Speaker 1: knocking on your door begging for you to stop boiling 316 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: the bottle, and in return you can barter your freedom 317 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 1: from the spell, whatever spell has been put on you. 318 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,919 Speaker 1: And generally speaking, it says that if that fails, you 319 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:53,200 Speaker 1: should then bury the bottle. So that's interesting, but it's 320 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 1: different to what we find in the buried bottles. Okay, 321 00:17:56,119 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: so the buried bottles obviously have hair, which isn't meant 322 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: and in any of these texts. The texts also don't 323 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: mention bending the pins to kill them if you like, 324 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: you know. So what we've got is two separate ways 325 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 1: of working that are thought to be behind these two practices. 326 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: The boiling things seems to be depending on the idea 327 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: that you can cause pain to the witch is bladder 328 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 1: by sort of acting upon a substance that might be 329 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,959 Speaker 1: infused partly with the witch, whereas the ones that are 330 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 1: buried seemed to be acting as a decoy in a trap. 331 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: And I think that that practice, the one where the 332 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,679 Speaker 1: bottles are buried, actually resembles and has a lot in 333 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: common with other practices like shoes and like some of 334 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:39,679 Speaker 1: the marks and all sorts, whereas the one with the 335 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: boiling seems to be well. One of my friends who 336 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: was studying that called dr Annie Swaite. She was studying 337 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 1: it for a long time, and she called it the 338 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 1: urinary experiment and saw it as a kind of pseudo 339 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: medical practice that people at the time thought that supernatural 340 00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:59,439 Speaker 1: energies were real, and that this was a way of 341 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: potentially removing them from someone you know, they were sort 342 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: of using medical theory, if you like, to try and 343 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: remove the presence of a witch, whereas the one where 344 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 1: you bury them seems to have more in common with 345 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 1: folk practices that are going on for a very long time. 346 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,479 Speaker 1: So I'm not sure, you know, they certainly both use 347 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 1: the same type of bottle. They both emerge about the 348 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: same time, which is the third quarter of the seventeenth 349 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 1: century or there about, um, but two separate practices. And 350 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 1: I wonder if you know that you have the written 351 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: one that's more about medicine and science, and you have 352 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,400 Speaker 1: the the other one that buried one that's like more 353 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:38,120 Speaker 1: going with the the real old school kind of folk 354 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: magic to how how do you get rid of a witch? Yeah, 355 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:43,959 Speaker 1: it's just just so so amazing and and and so 356 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: like very roughly speaking, like what what sort of numbers 357 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 1: are we talking about in terms of surviving witch bottles 358 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: that have been recovered since I last started counting? I mean, 359 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 1: I think when I published there was about a hundred 360 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,959 Speaker 1: and thirty odd Bella means, which is the German German 361 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 1: type ones, and there was probably another eighty or ninety 362 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,959 Speaker 1: of glass ones that I had on the file, and 363 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 1: I wouldn't be surprised if the German stoneware ones was 364 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,439 Speaker 1: easily an access of two hundred by out with the 365 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 1: amount of reports. But but you have to bear in 366 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: mind that these things are only ever found when someone 367 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: demolishes an old building or excavates under an old building. 368 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,440 Speaker 1: So there's probably a vast amount more that have been 369 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: discovered that just weren't reported. Because these bottles are actually 370 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: quite valuable, so you know, you can sell you can 371 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 1: sell one that wasn't used as a witch bottle for 372 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,639 Speaker 1: potentially four or five dred pounds on an eBay, and 373 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 1: if it was used as a witch bottle, I've seen 374 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,400 Speaker 1: people selling them for up to fifteen hundred pounds, so 375 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 1: you know, so, yeah, they're reasonably valuable when it comes 376 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 1: to the black market. So I think a lot of 377 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,640 Speaker 1: builders and homeowners when they find these they're they're curious, 378 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:53,479 Speaker 1: but they also see an opportunity for making a bit 379 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: of money. And and so we don't know exactly how 380 00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:00,199 Speaker 1: many there were, but I wouldn't be surprised if they 381 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: were maybe fifty times more common than my figures suggest, No, 382 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: maybe even more than that. Yeah, thank now we've twice 383 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:18,919 Speaker 1: mentioned shoes so if you, if you would explain how 384 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: to shoes factor in office, because on one hand, we 385 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 1: have the witch bottle here, which you know, once once explained, 386 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:29,159 Speaker 1: has all of these obvious occult and supernatural aspects to it. 387 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: But but but shoes, So we we take for granted 388 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: any number of us just have shoes probably piled towards 389 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 1: the front of our house, and we don't attach any 390 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 1: any kind of special importance to them, that's right, And 391 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: that's because we have an amazing factory production system that 392 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,400 Speaker 1: makes them cheap and easy to buy. But once upon 393 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: a time they were you know, artisan made things. And 394 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 1: of course we do actually still have a culture of 395 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: the professional artisan shoemaker still exists, and there's still people 396 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: who care about the history of shoes and and still 397 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 1: make very expensive made shoes. But of course, once upon 398 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:03,159 Speaker 1: a time that was the only kind of shoe you 399 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,239 Speaker 1: could get would be a handmade shoe, and they were 400 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: quite expensive, and so they were repaired and repaired and 401 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 1: repaired until you eventually could wouldn't you couldn't use them anymore, basically, 402 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: so they were quite valuable in more ways than you 403 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: can imagine now. But but yeah, they are that probably 404 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 1: The most common object that's found in buildings is concealed shoes. 405 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: They're usually concealed on their own. It's usually just one shoe. 406 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: In the old days, shoes weren't made to fit a 407 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 1: left foot and the right foot. They were just the same, 408 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: and they would take the shape of the wearer's feet 409 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,439 Speaker 1: gradually over time. But these ones that we find, they 410 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: are as I say, they're almost always an odd shoe. 411 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: I think there's slightly less than ten percent I found 412 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: as pairs, and they're almost always extremely well worn, because 413 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: who would get rid of a brand new shoe with 414 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: them being so expensive, like like I said before, And 415 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:51,920 Speaker 1: also they then wouldn't be able to if they hadn't 416 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 1: taken the shape of the wearer's foot, they couldn't perform 417 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 1: the function which I give which I suggest that they have, 418 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: which is and not just me, other people too, but 419 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: that they act as a kind of decoy, a bit 420 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 1: like we were talking about with the witch bottle, that 421 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 1: it's got some hair and some urine in it, so 422 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: it kind of fools any evil energies that are looking 423 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: for you into thinking that you're there. Um, it's the 424 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: same idea with shoes that an evil entity or a 425 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:19,920 Speaker 1: spell or something negative trying to get into your house. 426 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 1: It's seeking you to cause you harm. And it finds 427 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: your shoe, which might have been on your foot for 428 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 1: many years and has taken every you know, it's uniquely 429 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 1: or shoe it wouldn't have anywhere anyone else. Coincidentally, this 430 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 1: is also where the Cinderella myth comes from, you know, 431 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 1: the fact that she has become a unique thing to 432 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 1: someone's foot. And and yeah, so it's so it then 433 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 1: plunges down to attack the shoe as a decoy in it, 434 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: and it attacks it instead of you. So it's essentially 435 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: acting as a kind of lightning conductor. It's drawing negative 436 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 1: energy away from you, which is great, isn't it. And 437 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 1: the idea that it's kind of trap, trapping the energy 438 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: inside it. Now, the idea that the shoe can act 439 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,359 Speaker 1: as a trap is weird, okay, but there is some 440 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 1: kind of historical evidence for it. So there was a 441 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: fourteenth century priest from England, from a little village called 442 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: North Marston in Buckinghamshire, and he was when I say 443 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 1: he was an unofficial saint, I mean he was never 444 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: ever canonized by the Catholic Church. So people regarded him 445 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: as a saint even though he wasn't actually one, and 446 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 1: he has reputed to have cast the devil into a boot, 447 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,440 Speaker 1: which is a remarkable thing to do, as I'm sure 448 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: you can imagine. But the interesting thing about John Shawan 449 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: is that, even though he wasn't officially a saint, pilgrimages 450 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: to his shrine. For a period of about two hundred 451 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 1: and fifty years, was the second most popular shrine in Britain, 452 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,120 Speaker 1: and second only to Thomas A. Beckett at Canterbury Cathedral. 453 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: In fact, he was so popular that the monarchy in 454 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: Britain stole his relics from the Church of North Marston 455 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: and moved them to Windsor so that they could benefit 456 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 1: from the money that the pilgrims brought to come and 457 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: visit his shrine, and then those remains and relics of 458 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: them been returned to Northomaston when his popularity waned. But 459 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 1: the interesting thing is that the little pilgrim badges that 460 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: people would pick up when they went to visit his shrine, 461 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: all of them showing him holding a big boot with 462 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 1: a little devil poking out of the top. And and 463 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: we're talking hundreds of thousands of people, maybe even millions 464 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 1: of people would have had a badge that showed a 465 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,880 Speaker 1: devil trapped in a boot. Yeah, and not just that, 466 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: but an awful lot of churches had imagery obviously to 467 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 1: do with all of the saints. He was an incredibly 468 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 1: popular saint, and so many many churches would have had 469 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 1: an image of john Shaw and holding a boot with 470 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,400 Speaker 1: a devil trapped in it. Um. So from the fourteenth 471 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 1: century onwards, this was a really popular idea that you 472 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,679 Speaker 1: could trap a devil in a boot, and and and 473 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: funny enough that some of our earliest examples come from 474 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: that time. So back to the shoes themselves, As I say, 475 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,719 Speaker 1: sometimes you find them singly, sometimes you find find them 476 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,160 Speaker 1: in large groups. Sometimes you'll find they'll be a void 477 00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: in a house just through through some sort of quirk 478 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 1: of instruction that people can drop a shoe down. And 479 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 1: for example that plow sitting born in Kent, there was 480 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: over a hundred shoes I believe collected from that building 481 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,479 Speaker 1: from four different deposition points, and those shoes have been 482 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 1: dropped into those voids over generations. So subsequent owners of 483 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,119 Speaker 1: the building all carried on the same practice of putting 484 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 1: old one shoes down the same holes and you end 485 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 1: up with this record of footwear over over the ages, 486 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: as well as evidence of people's desire to draw evil 487 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: away from the people in the house. Now, what about 488 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 1: dried cats, wide dried cats? Oh, the poor little cats. 489 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 1: I love cats, So I would never do this to 490 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: a cat, and I would never advocate anyone ever does 491 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: this to a cat. This is a tradition from the past. 492 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 1: We don't do it these days. So please don't go 493 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 1: hiding cats in your houses people. But but yeah, it's 494 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 1: it's really really common throughout the whole of Europe and 495 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 1: Britain and Australia actually, and the USA, so we have 496 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: examples from from all over. There's also an example that 497 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 1: I have on record from Canada, but I don't have 498 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 1: so many records from Canada. I've also got a record 499 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 1: from Chili actually, So it's a very, very widespread and 500 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: it seems to be. Earlier on I mentioned about people 501 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 1: having been very concerned with who was or how was 502 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 1: the house being protected while they slept, and so there's 503 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,679 Speaker 1: an element of this going on with cats. Because there 504 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 1: semi nocturnal, they are quite mysterious in their behavior in 505 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 1: certainly in British Isles, there was a belief about the 506 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: which is familiar that was often focused on cats as well. 507 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: So it's that kind of leans towards how mysteriously people 508 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:44,879 Speaker 1: thought about them. But yeah, essentially they're benevolent little creatures 509 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 1: that are in our lives. They helped control pests and 510 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: but also we must also consider the fact that they 511 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 1: breed like wildfire if they're not new to it in 512 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: spade as we do in the modern world. Um So, basically, 513 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,359 Speaker 1: there were too many cats, and they were semi nocturnal, 514 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 1: generally helpful, and so people started to they fell naturally 515 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 1: into a helpful role essentially, So a lot of these practices. 516 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 1: One of the things you'll find in common with them 517 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 1: is that people were thinking about how do we how 518 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: do we affect something that's happening on the supernatural plane 519 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 1: as it were. Okay, so most people weren't able to 520 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 1: be supernatural. They weren't, which is all wizards, But there 521 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: were these things happening to them that were coming from 522 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: the supernatural plane, or they believed were happening to them 523 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,359 Speaker 1: from the supernatural plane, and so they had to find 524 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 1: ways of affecting it, and they had to find special 525 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 1: little recipes and special little practices that would have an 526 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: impact on those things. So, for example, these old shoes 527 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: that are no longer worth using, no longer longer worth 528 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: keeping on your foot, are essentially dead shoes. So they've died, 529 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: they've flipped over to the other side, so they're now 530 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 1: effective against the other side, against the supernatural realm. If 531 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: you're like and then with the witch bottles, you know, 532 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 1: you've got a big lock of hair removed from your 533 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 1: hair or nail pairings clipped off. These are parts of 534 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 1: you that we're attached to you and we're considered to 535 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: be alive, which are now dead because you're and so 536 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 1: they're now on the other side, acting as a kind 537 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 1: of allure or bait on the other side. And then 538 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 1: the same thing with these nails. And then we come 539 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 1: to the point where, in that way of thinking, here's 540 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 1: a cat that's alive but friendly and can control pests. 541 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 1: If we make it dead, if we flip it into 542 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 1: the other side, we can hope that it continues that 543 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: role on that side as a presence in the house. 544 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: And so what I think is going on is that 545 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: these cats are being essentially kind of sacrificed if you like, 546 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: to the house to act as little protectors of the 547 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: house while you sleep, because they're awake while you're asleep, 548 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: and they're catching vermin and they're looking out for things 549 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: that might come in that might harm you, like, you know, 550 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: instead of pests, you know, exchange the word pests for spells, 551 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:01,719 Speaker 1: you know, and they' itt of energies coming in, you know. 552 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: And I think that's what people were doing. And there's 553 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: also there's a little bit of I see. I think 554 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: that the idea that I've just expressed you is probably 555 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 1: the main one. But people have often thought about where 556 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: the cats were killed as a foundation sacrifice, that you 557 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: give a life to the house so that it went 558 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: then take a life later by falling down on you. 559 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 1: And I once had a very brief discussion with Terry 560 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 1: Pratchett about dried cats, and that was that was his idea, 561 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 1: was that he thought that was what was going on. Um. 562 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: But I think it's more to do with this, um, 563 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: you know, the role of a cat in death. I 564 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 1: think it's more to do with what I said to 565 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 1: you earlier about how, you know, you take some of 566 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: the qualities of the cat and by essentially killing it 567 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 1: but keeping it within the house. You've hopefully got a 568 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 1: helper within your house who's going to even why would 569 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 1: it want to help you if you've just taken its life, right, 570 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: But I think that that was thinking that was going 571 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: on there. And we find them in all sorts of 572 00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 1: places find them, Like the first one I ever came 573 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 1: a cus was actually in a village I used to 574 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 1: live in, which is weird because I've moved away. And 575 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 1: then the first report that came through my website was 576 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: of just a few streets away from where I used 577 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 1: to live, and a dried cat was found but sandwiched 578 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: in between some layers of thatch in a house. There 579 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: was basically a sixteenth century cottage, but they think that 580 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: the cat dates from a hundred years later. Yeah, and 581 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 1: it was squashed quite flat, you know, the way, quite 582 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 1: serious pressure have been put on it. There's no way 583 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: it could have got there by itself. It had been 584 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: placed there quite deliberately. And but yeah, we find others 585 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: that are sometimes strapped to floor joists, you know, they 586 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 1: literally could not have got their by accident. And there 587 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 1: were others that I found, not not mere personally, but 588 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 1: there was another one found sandwich between titles and plaster 589 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: in the roof of a church clearly had been placed 590 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 1: there by the builders. You know. That's another thing we're 591 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: thinking about. Some of these some of these methods and 592 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 1: practices were put there by the builders, and some were 593 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: put there by the homeowners. So we sometimes, you know, 594 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: when we're looking at an old I was looking at 595 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 1: all the fines to get from an old house, which 596 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 1: tried to discern, you know, which of them were put 597 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: there by the builders and which were added later. So 598 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 1: was there generally an idea that the builders were sort 599 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 1: of on the side of the house and on the 600 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 1: side of the occupants. Because I'm I'm reminded of something 601 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 1: I was reading about in in Chinese traditions. I believe 602 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: this was from a book by Philip A. kN about 603 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 1: the Chinese Sorcery Scare of seventeen sixty eight, And in 604 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 1: this one, a lot of it had to do with 605 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: with written magical protections that were used during a during 606 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: a home's construction to protect against potential curses leveled by 607 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 1: the actual laborers against like the the owners or future 608 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 1: occupants of the house. That's that's that's an interesting one. 609 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 1: I quite you consern me that reference later, I'm gonna 610 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 1: read that one. But yeah, but yeah, I think that 611 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: generally speaking in England for sure, because as far And 612 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 1: tends to know the most about it. But in England 613 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 1: it seems like it was an additional service that the 614 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: builders could provide. Look it off that So, say you 615 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: got two builders and you're trying to assess which ones 616 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 1: do you want to pay to give them a contract 617 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: to build your house. You know, one of them has 618 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: clear expertise in marking the timbers in such a way 619 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 1: that it will actors and you know that it will 620 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: repel evil just through the timbers that have been put 621 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 1: up there, you know. And so you're going to You're 622 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: going to go with the builders that can help protect 623 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 1: you in a supernatural way slightly more than you would 624 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 1: another company that wasn't so good at doing that. Um. Yeah, 625 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: So it's a it's another service that some builders offered, 626 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: and but it's a bit more nuanced than that, because 627 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 1: I think that you know, you might have somebody who 628 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: is the principal builder might employ a cockplenter and a stonemason, 629 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 1: and they might both have individual practices that they could do, 630 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: and whether they would do them on that project or 631 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 1: might depend on whether they liked you or not, or 632 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: you know, how skilled they were in that in that field. 633 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 1: So there's quite a few different, you know, elements at 634 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 1: play here. I wouldn't say it's necessarily as simple as 635 00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 1: one builder would give you the all round service. You know, 636 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 1: they give you their cat the marks that hell, this 637 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 1: kind of stuff. And I think some of these practices 638 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 1: were a direct response to people feeling that they've been 639 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,720 Speaker 1: bewitched as well, so that would have definitely come after 640 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:13,280 Speaker 1: the building have been put up. But there were certain 641 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 1: things that certain marks in particular, and you know, I 642 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 1: do I do think that builders leave shoes, for example, 643 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: and sometimes they include glass bottles, sometimes empty ones in 644 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:30,360 Speaker 1: buildings as well as part of you in addition to 645 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 1: some of the other mason's kind of traditions like the 646 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 1: topping out ceremonies and things like that. But in terms 647 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 1: of specific counter witchcraft, there was quite a few things 648 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:47,799 Speaker 1: builders and their trains people can do. Thank thank Now 649 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 1: this is too big of a question, we can we 650 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 1: can skip this one. But I was also fascinated by 651 00:34:53,680 --> 00:35:01,240 Speaker 1: the whole topic of horse calls being included in foundations 652 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:05,399 Speaker 1: and in floors, because on one hand, it makes sense 653 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 1: that it would line up with some of the things 654 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,799 Speaker 1: we've already talked about here, like the horses as an 655 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:14,840 Speaker 1: important animal and having an important role and for for 656 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 1: for the humans that are doing this. But then there's 657 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: this whole potential acoustic angle, right, Yeah, it's I've been 658 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 1: grappling with the whole notion of horse skulls and the 659 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,839 Speaker 1: different theories that play for quite some time. I don't 660 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 1: think I haven't quite finished thinking about it all yet, 661 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 1: but but I think I've got more answers than I 662 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: had before. Um So, when we were talking about cats 663 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: earlier being nocturnal and people worried about who was looking 664 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 1: after their house and they were asleep, I think that 665 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 1: the horses play a role in that. And it's at 666 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:54,520 Speaker 1: me awhile to realize this, but basically, horses can or 667 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 1: that they don't always choose to. They can sleep standing 668 00:35:57,640 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: up and with their eyes open, so they can be 669 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,720 Speaker 1: there in a sleep state but look like they're awake, 670 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 1: you know, and they're and they are basically in a 671 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 1: shallow sleep. They're ready, ready for action and ready to 672 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 1: be alert for the benefit of the other horses that 673 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,920 Speaker 1: they are with who might just be um, literally falling 674 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 1: asleep on their back with their hoofs in the air. 675 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 1: You know, some of them are like that, but there 676 00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 1: there'll be one or two of them that can be 677 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 1: awaken this kind of light sleep with their eyes open. 678 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 1: And I think that people knew that. So this idea 679 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 1: of horses as incredibly vigilant creatures was I think part 680 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 1: of what's going on. And then we also have the 681 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 1: fact that if you take a horse's head and you 682 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,239 Speaker 1: d flesh it, to use a horrible word, U a 683 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:44,600 Speaker 1: d fleshed horse skull is a really dramatic looking thing. 684 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: Presume you've the big tradition of using horses in the States. Obviously, 685 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 1: I presume you're seene a horse skull. You know they are. 686 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 1: They're they're quite quite impressive looking beasts. And I think 687 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:58,759 Speaker 1: that when when they're in that state, you know, when 688 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:00,720 Speaker 1: it's just a horse skull, they seems to have almost 689 00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 1: a supernatural power out them. Um, you know, they take 690 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:07,320 Speaker 1: on a different persona. It's not like, you know, a 691 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:09,840 Speaker 1: dead cat is a dead cat, you know, whereas a 692 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 1: horse skull as opposed to a living horse, is a 693 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,880 Speaker 1: kind of supernatural thing. It looks different and it's regarded differently, 694 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 1: I think as well. And then some of the ideas 695 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 1: that play in counter witchcraft are about basically being scarier 696 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 1: than something else. So you know, so if you've got 697 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,400 Speaker 1: something that's really scary, a lesser scary thing might be 698 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:33,479 Speaker 1: scared away by it, you know, like there's um there's 699 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:35,799 Speaker 1: one tradition, for example, with rug working that I've heard 700 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 1: about where certain rugs that are put in front of 701 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: the fire would often have a red diamond pattern on 702 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 1: them also like just a red diamond in the middle 703 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 1: or in the corners or something. And some of the 704 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,759 Speaker 1: folklore around this is that a devil poking his head 705 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 1: down the chimney would poke his head down the chimney 706 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,080 Speaker 1: and think, oh my goodness, there's already a devil in 707 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 1: the house. I won't go interfering with this, and would 708 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 1: go scar forget the other way it's going to find 709 00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 1: a house that doesn't have a devil in it, because 710 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:02,279 Speaker 1: the men just meant to represent this devil's eye. And 711 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:04,480 Speaker 1: I think in a way this idea with the horse 712 00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 1: skull is that they are particularly frightening and quite large, 713 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:11,960 Speaker 1: so they could actually intimidate and frighten away, um, other things. 714 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,480 Speaker 1: And I think that the sort of proof of that 715 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:16,759 Speaker 1: is that horse skulls are used in some of these 716 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,919 Speaker 1: folk dance traditions which appears to be about scaring away 717 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,840 Speaker 1: spirits like the mary Lewd and you know the certain 718 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:27,960 Speaker 1: other ones that like the abbios and what's the other 719 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:29,800 Speaker 1: one called the hood and horse as well. You know, 720 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,560 Speaker 1: these kind of dances and rituals that have these kind 721 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,359 Speaker 1: of horselike figures that go dancing around and convorting around 722 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 1: the countryside. And you know, with with the mary leud 723 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 1: for example, there's there's also a custom in that of 724 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 1: sweeping the hearth and cleaning the hearth away with this 725 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,160 Speaker 1: figure that's a horse skull and a big cape, and 726 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:49,640 Speaker 1: and that again seems to sort of tune in with 727 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:53,719 Speaker 1: this idea of protecting the hearth as well. Um. So yeah, 728 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:55,600 Speaker 1: I think that the horse skulls, you know, and on 729 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 1: top of that, there's all this ancient myth about horses 730 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 1: as well, you know, and the idea that horses were 731 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,160 Speaker 1: thought to literally tow the sun up, you know, you know, 732 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:09,239 Speaker 1: at sunrise, and and chariots of the gods almost you know, 733 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 1: and and they were also the way that people access 734 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:14,400 Speaker 1: to the underworld sometimes as well as they you know, 735 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:17,160 Speaker 1: you would ride your horse to Valhalla or it would 736 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 1: take you to the underworld. There's all these really old 737 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:24,320 Speaker 1: ideas about horses as um supernatural beings that had access 738 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,240 Speaker 1: to other worlds. Almost yeah, at the same time, therefore 739 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:31,399 Speaker 1: this really multi sort of sort of multi functional role 740 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 1: almost on a mythic level in human life, you know. 741 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,440 Speaker 1: And but ultimately, when we're talking about the period, this 742 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:39,239 Speaker 1: period of the Witch Trials, if if you want to 743 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,280 Speaker 1: look at that period, for example, we're talking about animals 744 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,160 Speaker 1: that are broadly benevolent to humans. You know, we don't 745 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,440 Speaker 1: see them simply as eating animals, you know, although they 746 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 1: were eating and still are in some countries. But yeah, 747 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,719 Speaker 1: they were you know, kind of a benevolent role in 748 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 1: our lives. But also this kind of incredible vigilance about them, 749 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:00,920 Speaker 1: and also there's kind of fierce some aspect to them 750 00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:03,560 Speaker 1: when they are in the shape of a horse skull. 751 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,399 Speaker 1: And in my book, I do site one example from 752 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:12,840 Speaker 1: I think it's eighteen where this is actually reported in 753 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,920 Speaker 1: a really good book about folklore in Cambridge, where this 754 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,640 Speaker 1: building company we're essentially laying the foundations for a new 755 00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:24,120 Speaker 1: chapel in Cambridgeshire, and they sent the builder's lad off 756 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:27,560 Speaker 1: to get a horse's head from the knacker's yard because 757 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:32,160 Speaker 1: they had a very strong tradition of placing a horse's 758 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,399 Speaker 1: head in the base of the foundations, which at first 759 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,320 Speaker 1: you think this is a foundation sacrifice, but it's not 760 00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:41,000 Speaker 1: that simple, because after they've poured some beer over it, 761 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,120 Speaker 1: and they've all shoveled various bits of stonework and everything 762 00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:47,439 Speaker 1: and earth over the top of it, they then said 763 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:49,080 Speaker 1: that they were they were doing this quite clearly to 764 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,239 Speaker 1: ward off evil and witchcraft, you know, So it's not 765 00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:56,680 Speaker 1: it's not as simple as thinking foundation sacrifice appeasing local spirits. 766 00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,799 Speaker 1: They very clearly believe this was for warding off evil 767 00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:02,560 Speaker 1: and witchcraft. This idea of including a horse's head in 768 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:07,680 Speaker 1: the base of a foundation trench in which you know, 769 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:11,279 Speaker 1: is well into the industrial era. And and we know 770 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:14,479 Speaker 1: that there are many examples of horse skulls and horse 771 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,880 Speaker 1: bones found underneath nonconformist chapels throughout all of Whales and 772 00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:20,880 Speaker 1: probably much of much of England as well. UM, and 773 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,880 Speaker 1: these many of these chapels were built well into the 774 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,719 Speaker 1: nineteen forties, you know, Um, and yet we also know 775 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: that horse skulls were concealed under under dwellings in the 776 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:35,160 Speaker 1: fifteenth century because we've got archaeological records of them. Yeah, 777 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:38,480 Speaker 1: and that's the whole idea of horse skulls being concealed 778 00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:41,440 Speaker 1: instead of the whole horse. I'm not sure exactly when 779 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,120 Speaker 1: that happened, you know, because the Viking has used to 780 00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: conceal whole horses, or not conceal them but bury them 781 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,680 Speaker 1: and have lots of rituals to do with them. But 782 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:53,360 Speaker 1: at some point between that period and the fifteenth century 783 00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,000 Speaker 1: it became much more about the horse's head or the 784 00:41:56,040 --> 00:42:00,880 Speaker 1: horse's skull. But I'm not sure exactly when. It's fascinating 785 00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:06,200 Speaker 1: and confusing, No, no, now is there is there also 786 00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,800 Speaker 1: an idea that there might have been an acoustic benefit 787 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,319 Speaker 1: in some of these cases to having the horse skull 788 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:14,000 Speaker 1: under there. I'm glad you brought me back to that 789 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:16,839 Speaker 1: because I clearly wandered away from that topic. But yeah, 790 00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 1: so there there is this idea that somehow horses act 791 00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:28,080 Speaker 1: as natural amplifiers or acoustic enhancers in buildings. So when 792 00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 1: people first started looking at the practice of concealed horse skulls, 793 00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:35,279 Speaker 1: and particularly in Ireland actually papered by Shawn O'Sullivan. I 794 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:39,279 Speaker 1: think it was in nine um, but the references in 795 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 1: my book if I got that wrong. But yeah, he 796 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:43,880 Speaker 1: was asking, you know what, what was the reason for 797 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:48,359 Speaker 1: them conceiving these horse skulls underneath them stones in front 798 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:50,880 Speaker 1: of the hearth in many of these cottages. And the 799 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:52,520 Speaker 1: answer he got from any of these people was that 800 00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:54,759 Speaker 1: it made the dancing sound better in the evening, you know, 801 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:56,399 Speaker 1: so when they were gathered together in the evening around 802 00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,960 Speaker 1: the fire and they were doing some Irish dancing, it 803 00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:04,120 Speaker 1: sounded an isa by having a horse skull underneath the stone. 804 00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:09,040 Speaker 1: And then similarly in England when they found twenty four 805 00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:12,239 Speaker 1: horse skulls beneath the floor of the ports way in 806 00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:16,359 Speaker 1: in Herfordshire, which is in Staunton on why this village um, 807 00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:19,080 Speaker 1: they said it made the fiddle go better, made the 808 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:25,120 Speaker 1: fiddles sound better. And then in Sweden, for example, when 809 00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:30,840 Speaker 1: Albert Sandcleff was researching horse skulls beneath barnes threshing barns 810 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,440 Speaker 1: in Sweden, you know, he came to the conclusion mostly 811 00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:36,480 Speaker 1: through what people told him, that it made the flails 812 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:40,680 Speaker 1: sound better when they were threshing wheat and uh, but 813 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 1: you know, I find it. I struggle with it a 814 00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:46,000 Speaker 1: little bit because you know, I'm when I'm not doing 815 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:48,359 Speaker 1: this kind of research, I am also a musician. I've 816 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,279 Speaker 1: been playing guitar for over thirty years. I think I'm 817 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,440 Speaker 1: quite good at it. And actually, but but yeah, I 818 00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:55,560 Speaker 1: have a horse skull on top of the bookshelf behind 819 00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,160 Speaker 1: my head right now. And I also played guitar in 820 00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:00,160 Speaker 1: this room quite a lot. And I've so and you 821 00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:03,040 Speaker 1: not noticed any kind of ringing or pleasant harmonious sound 822 00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:06,680 Speaker 1: because of it. Um. It may be that I need 823 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:10,080 Speaker 1: to attach the horse skull to a floorboard with a 824 00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:13,560 Speaker 1: big screw in order to to notice any benefit. Um, 825 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:16,680 Speaker 1: I haven't yet tested that. Let's let's just say that 826 00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:20,520 Speaker 1: I'm dubious about the acoustic benefits of horse skulls, especially 827 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:24,160 Speaker 1: because i'd say about the examples I am aware of 828 00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,920 Speaker 1: in locations where a lot of the sound that they 829 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:30,240 Speaker 1: could produce is absorbed by the earth that they're setting, 830 00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:33,240 Speaker 1: or they're in a part of the building that wouldn't 831 00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:35,480 Speaker 1: you know, sound wouldn't reach that part of the building, 832 00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,479 Speaker 1: you know, So you know, um, so I'm a little 833 00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:40,319 Speaker 1: bit dubious about that. And I think that a lot 834 00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:43,840 Speaker 1: of the reasons why people gave this explanation is because 835 00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 1: it was a way of saying that you weren't doing 836 00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:50,640 Speaker 1: something heretical or superstitious. You know, if you said, you're 837 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:52,560 Speaker 1: you know, you're walking down the street with a pair 838 00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:54,840 Speaker 1: of horse skulls under each arm, and the local vicar 839 00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:56,920 Speaker 1: comes up to you and said, what on earth are 840 00:44:56,960 --> 00:45:00,920 Speaker 1: you doing? Oh, it's to improve the acoustics when we're 841 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,239 Speaker 1: dancing in the evening. Of course it is, you know, um, 842 00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,720 Speaker 1: and I would say that probably a big clay bowl 843 00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,560 Speaker 1: or something would be better at it. I mean, maybe 844 00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,880 Speaker 1: it's more expensive. Obviously we used to have. You know, 845 00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:16,160 Speaker 1: our transport culture was completely dominated by the horse for centuries, 846 00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:18,960 Speaker 1: so there was an awful lot of available horse skulls, 847 00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:22,520 Speaker 1: you know. They maybe this was a use people found 848 00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:24,320 Speaker 1: for them, and maybe people really believe that there was 849 00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:26,840 Speaker 1: Maybe there is some marginal acoustic benefit that I'm not 850 00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:30,000 Speaker 1: aware of, but but yeah, I personally I think that 851 00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,279 Speaker 1: it be that explanation began as an excuse for why 852 00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:36,160 Speaker 1: someone is walking around with a horse skull trying to 853 00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:40,239 Speaker 1: dig a hole into their house, rather than because they 854 00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:42,759 Speaker 1: thought I desperately need to improve the acoustics in my house, 855 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,359 Speaker 1: and a horse skull must be the way I do that. Now, 856 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,880 Speaker 1: if we mentioned already these artifacts tend to emerge during 857 00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:54,840 Speaker 1: cases of demolition or renovation, digging up the ground beneath 858 00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:58,680 Speaker 1: the old dwellings and on buildings, it's etcetera. And you 859 00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:01,279 Speaker 1: also mentioned like the black market and so forth. What 860 00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:05,080 Speaker 1: what is the appropriate court of action? Uh, you would 861 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:09,840 Speaker 1: recommend if anyone out there is engaged in construction, renovation, demolition, etcetera, 862 00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:14,080 Speaker 1: if they find something that that that could conceivably be 863 00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:16,080 Speaker 1: part of one of these traditions, what what should they do? 864 00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,400 Speaker 1: The perfect thing to do is, first of all, as 865 00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,960 Speaker 1: soon as you see something emerge from the ground or 866 00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:25,280 Speaker 1: emerge from a wall, it's just pause and take loads 867 00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:28,359 Speaker 1: of photographs from every angle, just sort of really really 868 00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:30,560 Speaker 1: record it as well as you can maybe do a 869 00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:33,279 Speaker 1: bit of video as well, you know, write down when 870 00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:36,560 Speaker 1: you found it, what you found, before you even touch it, 871 00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:40,520 Speaker 1: you know, and then ideally then contact someone who is 872 00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,240 Speaker 1: interested in it or as an expert in that field. Obviously, 873 00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:45,319 Speaker 1: I would like you to consider me if you find 874 00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:47,799 Speaker 1: those things, you know, and I would like to give 875 00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:50,800 Speaker 1: you some advisor, maybe look at some photos and have 876 00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:54,560 Speaker 1: some input about what you found. And then the ideal thing, 877 00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:57,080 Speaker 1: because obviously I live a long way away from any 878 00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:59,719 Speaker 1: of your listeners, you know, the ideal thing is that 879 00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:02,080 Speaker 1: you find some way of keeping it in the house 880 00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:04,319 Speaker 1: after you've recorded it, as well as you can keep 881 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:06,520 Speaker 1: it in the house and keep it where it where 882 00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:09,920 Speaker 1: where you found it, if you can. Some people find solutions, 883 00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,000 Speaker 1: like they'll put a little window so you can still 884 00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:13,600 Speaker 1: see it and appreciate it, and it's a kind of 885 00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,920 Speaker 1: fun talking point in the house. Um. I know lots 886 00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:19,360 Speaker 1: of houses where they've done that with dried cats as well. Actually, 887 00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:21,279 Speaker 1: even though they're a bit gruesome to look at, lots 888 00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:23,959 Speaker 1: of people still like to keep them. Obviously, it's something 889 00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:27,719 Speaker 1: like a dry cat. It's um, it's organic, and it's 890 00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:30,719 Speaker 1: it could rot if it becomes damp, so you've got 891 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:32,719 Speaker 1: to think more carefully about what you do with that, 892 00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:34,400 Speaker 1: and a lot of people do end up disposing of 893 00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:36,799 Speaker 1: them for that reason. But you know, if you can 894 00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:38,920 Speaker 1: keep it dry and keep it visible, or just just 895 00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:41,600 Speaker 1: just conceal it again, just put it back in and 896 00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:43,759 Speaker 1: forget all about it. Like the first one I ever 897 00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,120 Speaker 1: came across, went straight back in the thatch after I'd 898 00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:48,279 Speaker 1: recorded it, and it's still there as far as I know. 899 00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:52,040 Speaker 1: So that is the best thing to do. That's very 900 00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:55,640 Speaker 1: by far the best thing to do. Um wherever you live, 901 00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:58,279 Speaker 1: that's the best thing to do. The shoes, by and large, 902 00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:01,040 Speaker 1: they're not going to be worth anything, so you know, 903 00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:02,719 Speaker 1: record them and put them back. You're not going to 904 00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:05,120 Speaker 1: lose any any money. You're not denying yourself some kind 905 00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:09,120 Speaker 1: of riches by reconcealing a shoe or a cat, you know, 906 00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:14,040 Speaker 1: the ones that people assign more monetary value to. The 907 00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:18,400 Speaker 1: witch bottles, because pottery, you know, nice old pottery with 908 00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:23,800 Speaker 1: clear witchcraft, you know connections is very interesting. But what 909 00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:25,359 Speaker 1: I would say to you is sell it to your 910 00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:28,600 Speaker 1: local museum. You know, your local museum will love to 911 00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:30,480 Speaker 1: own it, and I'm sure would make you an offer 912 00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:34,640 Speaker 1: if you have a history, local history museum, and just 913 00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:37,719 Speaker 1: make sure you offer it to local historians or archaeologists 914 00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:40,600 Speaker 1: after you've recorded it, and let them buy it off. 915 00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:42,440 Speaker 1: You don't put it. Don't just put it on the 916 00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,640 Speaker 1: black market, because someone will buy it and its provenance 917 00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:47,239 Speaker 1: will be lost and no one will know where it 918 00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:50,680 Speaker 1: is forever after so that's my only request is just 919 00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,120 Speaker 1: record it as well as you can share that information. 920 00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:56,040 Speaker 1: And if you're going to sell anything, said it responsibly, 921 00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:58,080 Speaker 1: said it to someone who's going to care about that 922 00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:02,040 Speaker 1: objects and care about it's relevance and its contexts in 923 00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:06,160 Speaker 1: your local historical environment. Now, in some cases, they think 924 00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:09,200 Speaker 1: you mentioned in the book, the individuals who find these 925 00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:13,840 Speaker 1: these objects then kind of maybe buy into the supernatural 926 00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:18,840 Speaker 1: ideas around them, even as as modern um you know, 927 00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:22,200 Speaker 1: there's residents of the modern world. Yeah, in in modern parlance, 928 00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:23,960 Speaker 1: you could say that people kind of freak out a 929 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:25,800 Speaker 1: bit where they find when they find these things in 930 00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:30,680 Speaker 1: there in their houses. Um So, in England, most of 931 00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:34,040 Speaker 1: the houses where these objects like this are found are 932 00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:39,600 Speaker 1: usually very historic houses, usually quite desirable, usually quite expensive houses. 933 00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:42,799 Speaker 1: See so in modern times, usually the people that live 934 00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:45,800 Speaker 1: in these houses are quite wealthy or professional, you know, 935 00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:48,920 Speaker 1: and usually consider themselves to be quite serious professional individuals. 936 00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:52,800 Speaker 1: So we've got to kind of called a lot of lawyers, academicians, 937 00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,560 Speaker 1: you know, people like that. And these are people who 938 00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:59,640 Speaker 1: often don't even don't think they're superstitious or have any 939 00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:02,520 Speaker 1: super rua believes at all, and yet when they find 940 00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:04,200 Speaker 1: these objects in their houses. They want to know what 941 00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:06,360 Speaker 1: they are, first of all, and they'll contact someone like 942 00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:08,239 Speaker 1: me and they start to learn more about it, not 943 00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:11,319 Speaker 1: just from me, but from other literature online or from 944 00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:14,399 Speaker 1: friends or whatever. And then they start to get really, really, 945 00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:18,759 Speaker 1: really really worried that they are, that they're disturbing some 946 00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:23,040 Speaker 1: form of protection, and that whatever evil that these things 947 00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:26,800 Speaker 1: were protecting against might come back into their houses. And 948 00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:29,960 Speaker 1: they're often really frightened of for example, a shoe being 949 00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:32,240 Speaker 1: taken away from the house, or a cat being moved, 950 00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:35,160 Speaker 1: or a bottle being broken or something like that. They 951 00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:39,879 Speaker 1: feel that, um, some dark energy that was being held 952 00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:44,880 Speaker 1: at bay by this thing might suddenly re emerge. Now, obviously, 953 00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:47,719 Speaker 1: when you when you look at the way people used 954 00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:50,360 Speaker 1: to use these things, it was usually in a specific 955 00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:54,279 Speaker 1: response to them feeling the witched. So the chances of 956 00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:57,560 Speaker 1: that same cause of the harmful energy, the same witch 957 00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:01,840 Speaker 1: still being alive and transferring that harmful energy onto you, 958 00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:07,040 Speaker 1: it's almost zero. But people, for some reason, I feel 959 00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:09,239 Speaker 1: that this is going to happen to them, and they 960 00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:13,439 Speaker 1: get incredibly worried. Um. I remember one one house where 961 00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:16,279 Speaker 1: a witch bottle was found. We persuaded the guys that 962 00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:18,319 Speaker 1: let us analyze the witch bottles. So we were going 963 00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:20,279 Speaker 1: to take it to university, have it X rays and 964 00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:23,560 Speaker 1: have all the contents analyzed. And it took a lot 965 00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:26,120 Speaker 1: of persuading to get him to do it. And this 966 00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:30,399 Speaker 1: was for an English TV program on BBC two called 967 00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:34,239 Speaker 1: History Detectives. Um he he reported the fine because he 968 00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:37,240 Speaker 1: found it really interesting and as part of the research, 969 00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:40,440 Speaker 1: you know, myself and my colleague Dr Alan Massey, we 970 00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:45,520 Speaker 1: we often would investigate bottles like this, and the production 971 00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:48,000 Speaker 1: team and us we had to work on him for ages, 972 00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:50,520 Speaker 1: so allow us to take it away. The whole time 973 00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:52,239 Speaker 1: it was away, he was ringing every day as the 974 00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:54,160 Speaker 1: bottle Okay, when's it coming back? Was it coming back? 975 00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:56,359 Speaker 1: I need it back in the house. Really really felt 976 00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:58,799 Speaker 1: desperately worried about it. And when it did come back 977 00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:01,600 Speaker 1: to the house eventually after the analysis, he wanted it 978 00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:03,920 Speaker 1: to be reinterred and he wanted me to do it 979 00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:06,239 Speaker 1: because I was the first person he was reported it too, 980 00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:08,759 Speaker 1: and so I agreed. But when I got there, what 981 00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:10,959 Speaker 1: I didn't know was that he and the production team 982 00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:14,759 Speaker 1: had employed a group of nuns to pray around me 983 00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:18,000 Speaker 1: while I was lowering it into the hole. Um so 984 00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:20,680 Speaker 1: that was a startling end to that little bit of 985 00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:23,799 Speaker 1: TV work. But then but yeah, it just shows how 986 00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:27,560 Speaker 1: strongly this guy felt about it. He really wanted the 987 00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:30,480 Speaker 1: thing to go back where it comes from, and he 988 00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:33,239 Speaker 1: felt that it needed some kind of religious blessing in 989 00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:36,480 Speaker 1: the process as well to make it safe. It's fascinating. 990 00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:39,680 Speaker 1: It really makes me think about you know, early on 991 00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:41,800 Speaker 1: in the book, you also you mentioned like the different 992 00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:44,600 Speaker 1: since world of being in a house, you know, in 993 00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:47,440 Speaker 1: historic times and everything's quieter, and I guess maybe you 994 00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:50,920 Speaker 1: hear all the sounds or potential sounds a bit more. 995 00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:54,279 Speaker 1: But then also just thinking about our modern relationship with 996 00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:57,400 Speaker 1: like the spaces between our walls or the spaces underneath 997 00:52:57,480 --> 00:53:00,920 Speaker 1: the floor. It's there's the things we know, like we 998 00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:03,800 Speaker 1: we tend to know or assume they are not spirits 999 00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:06,160 Speaker 1: or demons under there, but we we don't know for 1000 00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:10,160 Speaker 1: sure that there's not a mouse. Uh. We we know 1001 00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:14,399 Speaker 1: there are wires and uh and pipes under and through 1002 00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:16,600 Speaker 1: our house, and we have at least some level of 1003 00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:18,919 Speaker 1: understanding of how those things work. But then also maybe 1004 00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:22,560 Speaker 1: some some some empty spots and our understanding concerning say 1005 00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:26,480 Speaker 1: electrical wiring. Yeah, it's it's it's really interesting. I mean, 1006 00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:30,919 Speaker 1: I would say that that people in the past often 1007 00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:34,640 Speaker 1: used to feel a bit like our our children do now. 1008 00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:37,440 Speaker 1: You know, so you know, you've got a child going 1009 00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:39,600 Speaker 1: to sleep that the fears there's something under the bed 1010 00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:43,080 Speaker 1: or something you know, hiding behind the cupboard or something 1011 00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:45,719 Speaker 1: like that. You know, I think that it's not quite 1012 00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:47,440 Speaker 1: the same. I mean, I don't. I'm not saying that 1013 00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:50,759 Speaker 1: people have beliefs that were just like children. But if 1014 00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:53,360 Speaker 1: you imagine a more mature version of those beliefs, you 1015 00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:56,000 Speaker 1: know that there there's there's still is a belief in magic. 1016 00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:58,160 Speaker 1: There still is a belief that there are some entities 1017 00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:00,160 Speaker 1: and some things around you that can harm you, but 1018 00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:03,040 Speaker 1: you can't see them, and you haven't got the powers 1019 00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:04,800 Speaker 1: to do anything about them unless you learn some of 1020 00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:07,920 Speaker 1: these practices you know, only, which is can maybe do 1021 00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:10,200 Speaker 1: something about these things, or white, which is, you know, 1022 00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:12,920 Speaker 1: the village cunning person, for example, who's got control over 1023 00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:17,160 Speaker 1: some supernatural powers, could maybe manipulate some of these things. 1024 00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:19,480 Speaker 1: But but you can't. But all these things are around you. 1025 00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:21,960 Speaker 1: And so I think that some of those fears that 1026 00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:26,120 Speaker 1: we you might remember from being a child basically carry 1027 00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:32,040 Speaker 1: over into adulthood as as a legitimate belief that everybody shared. 1028 00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:36,200 Speaker 1: You know, I really do think that even as recently 1029 00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:38,800 Speaker 1: as the early twentieth century and some rural areas, beliefs 1030 00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:42,719 Speaker 1: like this were absolutely normal and and people have very 1031 00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:47,560 Speaker 1: sophisticated responses to them, including the practices I've mentioned plus others. Now, 1032 00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:49,759 Speaker 1: this is not an example that I think has any 1033 00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:53,719 Speaker 1: supernatural aspects to it, but I was wondering, I'm not 1034 00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:55,759 Speaker 1: sure if this is a feature of homes in the 1035 00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:58,160 Speaker 1: uk Orna, if this is just a thing in the States, 1036 00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:02,360 Speaker 1: or if this is found throughout the world. But you 1037 00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:05,480 Speaker 1: look at older medicine cabinets sometimes and there'll be a 1038 00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:09,440 Speaker 1: slot in the back to dispose razors down, like shaving 1039 00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:13,440 Speaker 1: razors um and uh, I couldn't help but think of 1040 00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:17,640 Speaker 1: that now and again whilst whilst reading the book, as 1041 00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:20,600 Speaker 1: being like, you know, a place where we we put 1042 00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:23,440 Speaker 1: things that maybe have some sort of connection to our 1043 00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:26,239 Speaker 1: physical body. And they also reminded me of the bent 1044 00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:30,279 Speaker 1: nails a bit, the bent pins as being these you know, 1045 00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:33,480 Speaker 1: these these bits of iron or metal that are they're 1046 00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:36,839 Speaker 1: no longer useful. Yeah, I've seen I've seen some lots 1047 00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:38,719 Speaker 1: of examples of those. I can't remember the name of 1048 00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:41,040 Speaker 1: the Facebook group, but there's a group about things found 1049 00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:44,040 Speaker 1: hidden in walls and everything, and a lot of the 1050 00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:46,480 Speaker 1: examples from the States are where people have bought a 1051 00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:48,720 Speaker 1: really old house and it's been like a medicine cabinet, 1052 00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:51,640 Speaker 1: and they've found this great, big, massive razor blades all 1053 00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:54,479 Speaker 1: behind the plaster board, you know, that will be pushed 1054 00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:56,279 Speaker 1: through this slot and just been allowed to just sit 1055 00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:58,359 Speaker 1: there and rush the way behind the behind the wall. 1056 00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:01,120 Speaker 1: And yeah, it's very similar, isn't it. You know, you 1057 00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:04,800 Speaker 1: can see why it's it's it's a similar idea, isn't it. 1058 00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:06,840 Speaker 1: You've got this this thing, like you say, closely associated 1059 00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:09,520 Speaker 1: with the body. It's then been disposed of behind the wall. 1060 00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:11,640 Speaker 1: It's very sharp, you know, it's a sharp thing where 1061 00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:14,040 Speaker 1: supernatural mark. You know, he's not going to look there anymore, 1062 00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:16,000 Speaker 1: is it? Because you've got all these dead sharp things. 1063 00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:19,600 Speaker 1: And it's very reminiscent of the belief in knife blades 1064 00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:22,520 Speaker 1: and things that used to be found underneath window sills 1065 00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:27,840 Speaker 1: and sometimes under door lintels where there's there's a you know, 1066 00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:30,000 Speaker 1: we've talked a lot about this idea that things can 1067 00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:31,920 Speaker 1: be sort of killed in order to be activated on 1068 00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:34,480 Speaker 1: the supernatural plane, and that would the same would apply 1069 00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:36,960 Speaker 1: to well, you're hitching utensils, you know, if you've got 1070 00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:40,480 Speaker 1: a broken knife, it now is activated if you're like 1071 00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:44,320 Speaker 1: and it is now a useful form of supernatural events 1072 00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:46,399 Speaker 1: if you were to secrete it beneath a window sill 1073 00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:50,759 Speaker 1: or pop it above a door lintel. And so it's 1074 00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:53,040 Speaker 1: very similar. There's kind of there's definitely a resonance there 1075 00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:57,880 Speaker 1: isn't that. Finally, as as both a witchcraft archaeologist and 1076 00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:00,960 Speaker 1: a musician, do you think there's a shortage of witch 1077 00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:04,680 Speaker 1: bottle mentions in songs about witchcraft and wizardry or there 1078 00:57:04,719 --> 00:57:06,440 Speaker 1: are there some great examples out there that I just 1079 00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:09,080 Speaker 1: don't know about. Are you also a musician that are 1080 00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:13,240 Speaker 1: you going to rectify this situation? I have no ability 1081 00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:17,240 Speaker 1: to to directify it. If there is a lacking, I 1082 00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:19,400 Speaker 1: don't think though I don't, I don't know of any 1083 00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:21,960 Speaker 1: I'm sure that there are some little folk poems that 1084 00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:25,080 Speaker 1: reference the idea of predicting against witchcrash, but I'm not 1085 00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:28,560 Speaker 1: aware of a good song, especially a rock song, which 1086 00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:32,560 Speaker 1: is my my world about witch bustles. But but I 1087 00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:34,640 Speaker 1: do I do know there is there is a metal 1088 00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:37,560 Speaker 1: band called Coast or Ghost, but with a cane in 1089 00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:39,520 Speaker 1: the front instead of a G and I know that 1090 00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:44,080 Speaker 1: they've started writing some crazy songs about counter witchcraft, so 1091 00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:48,240 Speaker 1: there may be a witch bustle song coming from them soon. Excellent. Well, 1092 00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:51,560 Speaker 1: but before we close out here, I imagine that we 1093 00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:55,360 Speaker 1: have perked a number of listeners curiosities about this whole topic. 1094 00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:58,720 Speaker 1: Can you tell our listeners how they can follow you 1095 00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:01,720 Speaker 1: the website so or social media accounts they can go 1096 00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:05,920 Speaker 1: to uh to to to learn more about this study. Sure, 1097 00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:11,440 Speaker 1: so on Twitter and Instagram, I'm there as folk magic 1098 00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:16,520 Speaker 1: Man as one word, But on Facebook and on my 1099 00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:19,840 Speaker 1: website it's a little bit more difficult to convey without 1100 00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:24,040 Speaker 1: seeing it. But the the domain is aperture pious, which 1101 00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:26,120 Speaker 1: is you can probably share a link, can't you in 1102 00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:28,880 Speaker 1: your podcast? But yeah, that's probably the best way to 1103 00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:30,960 Speaker 1: do it. But it's apple sture pious, dot co, dot 1104 00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:34,600 Speaker 1: uk or dot com and the same thing on Facebook 1105 00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:37,800 Speaker 1: it would be forward slash aperture pious. Um. But yeah, 1106 00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:41,200 Speaker 1: that's right. It all is excellent. Well, thanks for taking 1107 00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:43,360 Speaker 1: time out of your day to chat with me here. 1108 00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:46,320 Speaker 1: This has been I've enjoyed it tremendously and I am 1109 00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:48,919 Speaker 1: sure that our listeners are going to enjoy it as well. 1110 00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:51,640 Speaker 1: I've enjoyed it very much too. Thanks again to Brian 1111 00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:54,120 Speaker 1: for coming on the show to chat again. The book 1112 00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:58,880 Speaker 1: is Magical House Protection the Archaeology of counter Witchcraft, and 1113 00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:01,800 Speaker 1: it's available in physical, cool and digital forms wherever you 1114 00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:04,360 Speaker 1: get your books. We only have time to discuss really 1115 00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:06,680 Speaker 1: a fraction of what is explored in the book, So 1116 00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:09,920 Speaker 1: if this topic fascinates you as it does me, pick 1117 00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:12,840 Speaker 1: it up. Thanks as always to Seth Nicholas Johnson for 1118 00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:15,040 Speaker 1: producing the show, and if you want to reach out, 1119 00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:19,000 Speaker 1: simply email us at contact at stuff to Blow your 1120 00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:29,760 Speaker 1: Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production 1121 00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:32,600 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, 1122 00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:35,640 Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're 1123 00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:36,840 Speaker 1: listening to your favorite shows.