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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to

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Speaker 1: the whitetail woods, presented by first Light, creating proven versatile

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Speaker 1: hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First Light

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Speaker 1: Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. This week on

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Speaker 2: the show, we are discussing the surprisingly fascinating science of roadkill,

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Speaker 2: wildlife crossings, and the impact of roads on deer and

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Speaker 2: other wildlife, and I'm joined by author Ben Goldfarb. All Right,

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Speaker 2: welcome back to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to

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Speaker 2: you by first Light, and today we are discussing the surprising,

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Speaker 2: the interesting, the fascinating intersection of roads and wildlife. And

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Speaker 2: there's a there's a little bit of a pun there,

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Speaker 2: but I'm joined today by Ben Goldfarb, the author of

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Speaker 2: a terrific book called Crossings. A road ecology is shaping

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Speaker 2: the future of our planet in this book and our

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Speaker 2: conversation today is all about this very interesting set of

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Speaker 2: ways that roads impact deer and other wildlife, and by

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Speaker 2: way of that, they impact us too as hunters. There

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Speaker 2: are the obvious ways you know, where roads actually kill

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Speaker 2: wildlife roadkill, of course, and the many ripple effects of that,

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Speaker 2: and then there's this kind of wider set of like

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Speaker 2: halo effects of roads and how they impact human behavior,

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Speaker 2: pressure on hunt you know, hunting pressure and other types

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Speaker 2: of pressures on wildlife. You know, the ways roads impact

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Speaker 2: pollinators and birds and all sorts of different habitat related things.

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Speaker 2: There's lots there's lots of stuff here that's surprising, that's

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Speaker 2: eye opening and very relevant to I think a lot

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Speaker 2: of folks in the hunting world. You know, impacts on

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Speaker 2: migration corridors, impacts on wildlife, travel, impacts on you know,

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Speaker 2: the genetic viability of certain species as roads are kind

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Speaker 2: of carving up and fragmenting wildlife habitat more and more.

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Speaker 2: So all that and more is what we cover today

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Speaker 2: with Ben. It's a it's a really interesting and unique

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Speaker 2: conversation that I'm excited for you guys to hear. Before

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Speaker 2: we get to that very quickly, I just want to

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Speaker 2: plug you know, leaving a review for this podcast and

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Speaker 2: subscribing if you haven't done yet, and then finally also

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Speaker 2: checking out the rest of the Meat Eater podcast network.

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Speaker 2: We've got shows like, you know, the Meat Eater flagship show.

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Speaker 2: But then Kels we can review God's Country, this uh,

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Speaker 2: This Country Life, Bear Grease, the American West with Dan Floores,

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Speaker 2: and several more. I think I'm forgetting something here, but

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Speaker 2: we've got lots to listen to after this chat with

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Speaker 2: Ben Goldfarm, so let's get into it all right. Joining

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Speaker 2: me now is Ben Goldfarb. Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Ben, Thanks a loud mark. It's great to be here.

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Speaker 2: I really appreciate it. I'm excited about this one. My pal,

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Speaker 2: Ben O'Brien. Maybe I don't know, you're not to fact

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Speaker 2: check me on the dates here, but seven or eight

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Speaker 2: years ago something like that first introduced me to you

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Speaker 2: through your first book, Eager about Beavers, which I thoroughly enjoyed. Thanks,

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Speaker 2: and I followed you and kind of your work ever

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Speaker 2: since from afar. And when your latest book, Crossings came

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Speaker 2: out a couple of years ago, now I feel like

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Speaker 2: it was isn't that right? It has been two years

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Speaker 2: now or a year and a half, yeah, three, okay,

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Speaker 2: So when that came out, I immediately put that on

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Speaker 2: my list of oh yeah, I have to read that

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Speaker 2: book because it's right up my alley, that kind of

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Speaker 2: intersection of kind of wildlife and conservation and ecology and

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Speaker 2: all those kinds of things, and both in line with

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Speaker 2: what I personally am into, and then also you know

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Speaker 2: my work life with hunting and writing about those things.

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Speaker 2: But I saw right away that it was a book

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Speaker 2: that would be very relevant to a book project of

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Speaker 2: my own that I'm writing right now, and so I

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Speaker 2: put it on a different like reading list. So rather

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Speaker 2: than just like the reading for fun list, it got

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Speaker 2: put on the oh, you need to read that while

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Speaker 2: taking notes list, and so because of that, it kept

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Speaker 2: getting pushed back and delayed and delayed and delayed. So

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Speaker 2: this is a very long and roundabout way of saying

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Speaker 2: Ben that as soon as your book came out, I

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Speaker 2: was like, I need to read that, but because of

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Speaker 2: my weird process, I didn't read it until just like

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Speaker 2: a month ago while on our family spring break trip.

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Speaker 2: So I finally got around to reading Crossings, and as

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Speaker 2: soon as I did, I realized that just as I thought,

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Speaker 2: it would be a very worthy read. So congrats on

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Speaker 2: a great book right out the gate, Ben just got

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Speaker 2: say that, well done.

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Speaker 3: Thanks thanks for saying that, and I hope it checked

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Speaker 3: that fun to read box as well as the note

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Speaker 3: taking box.

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Speaker 2: It did it did, and that's that's a sweet spot.

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Speaker 2: That's not easy to achieve. Being able to be able

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Speaker 2: to write something that's both really informative and a page

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Speaker 2: turner like and enjoyable compelling. That's no easy tasks. So

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Speaker 2: uh so, nicely done. You. You were able to survive

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Speaker 2: the sitting by the pool with a beer test and

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Speaker 2: I did not fall asleep.

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Speaker 3: Oh man, it's it's me, John Grisham and Stephen King

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Speaker 3: in that in that category.

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Speaker 2: That's quite the company to keep ben rights. But I

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Speaker 2: want to I want to quickly make this relevant to

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Speaker 2: people listening, because this book is about something that you

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Speaker 2: call road ecology, which to the average outdoors person might

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Speaker 2: sound kind of jargony and maybe not relevant to what

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Speaker 2: a hunter or angler might care about. But I guess

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Speaker 2: to open it, tell me this, what's rhodocology and why

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Speaker 2: should a hunter or angler or outdoors men care?

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Speaker 3: Sure? So, you know, so RhoD ecology is basically this

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Speaker 3: relatively small, but I would say fast growing field of

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Speaker 3: science that looks at all of the different ways that

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Speaker 3: roads interacts with and connect with nature and often fragment nature. Right,

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Speaker 3: And you know, I think from a hunter's perspective, of course,

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Speaker 3: that dead deer by the side of the highways is

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Speaker 3: the most visceral obvious connection. You know, I mean a

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Speaker 3: couple million large animals at least are killed in wildlife

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Speaker 3: vehicle collisions every year, and that's a tremendous loss to hunters.

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Speaker 3: I mean from a fish perspective. You know, I'm not

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Speaker 3: a hunter, but I'm a pretty avid angler. And every

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Speaker 3: place that a stream goes under a road, you know,

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Speaker 3: there's a culvert, and often those culverts are too small

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Speaker 3: or defective, and that's a huge loss of fish and

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Speaker 3: fish aquatic connectivity and habitat. So rhad ecology basically looks

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Speaker 3: at all of these different points that roads and ecosystems

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Speaker 3: intersect and thinks about, okay, and what impacts are roads

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Speaker 3: pausing on nature? And I think, really importantly, what do

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Speaker 3: we do about those impacts? How do we start to

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Speaker 3: solve some of the ecological problems that are massive four

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Speaker 3: million mile transportation network here in the US creates.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, in your book, you write about I think I

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Speaker 2: believe this is a quote, as long as I didn't

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Speaker 2: mess up my transcription. He wrote, the pavement itself blankets.

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Speaker 2: Less than one percent of the United states, yet its influence.

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Speaker 2: The road effect zone, to use ecological jargon, covers a

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Speaker 2: full twenty percent. So you mentioned the fact that there's

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Speaker 2: like a four million mile road network across the country. Well,

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Speaker 2: then here you talk about how the effective roads expands

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Speaker 2: beyond just that four million actual miles. But then there's

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Speaker 2: also this buffer or outside of that. Can you explain

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Speaker 2: a little more of what the road effect zone is

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Speaker 2: and what that means, because I kind of want to

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Speaker 2: lay the groundwork here for just how far reaching roads

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Speaker 2: really are.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think I think one of the

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Speaker 3: reasons that historically a lot of conservation groups and even

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Speaker 3: wildlife biologists to I think, overlooked roads as this ecological

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Speaker 3: problem is because, as you say, you know, they don't

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Speaker 3: actually cover a lot of land area. Right a road

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Speaker 3: it might only be you know, one hundred feet wide,

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Speaker 3: let's say, for talking about you know, a big highway

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Speaker 3: from shoulder to shoulder, And so you know, what's the

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Speaker 3: what's the big deal right there? You know, tens of

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Speaker 3: thousands of acres of habitat out there, but those roads

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Speaker 3: and the traffic that goes along them prevent animals from

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Speaker 3: reaching that habitat. Right there's a you know, a really

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Speaker 3: famous map. Maybe can you know, you can include in

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Speaker 3: the show notes or something, this great graphic of a

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Speaker 3: grizzly bear's attempt to cross I ninety in Montana, and

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Speaker 3: that that bear is just you know, bouncing and you

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Speaker 3: can basically see the satellite collar map of you know,

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Speaker 3: this bear's this bear's movements and the bear is just

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Speaker 3: bouncing off I'm ninety like a ping pong ball. Right.

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Speaker 3: He keeps trying to find places to cross the highway,

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Speaker 3: but the traffic is so dense that he's unable to do.

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Speaker 3: And so that bear attempts more than forty crossings over

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Speaker 3: the course of six months before he finally, you know,

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Speaker 3: finds his way across the highway somehow. So, you know,

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Speaker 3: from that bear's perspective, right, he's looking at the road,

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Speaker 3: the road is only you know, one hundred feet wide

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Speaker 3: from shoulder to shoulder or whatever, but it's denying him

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Speaker 3: access to hundreds of thousands of acres of habitat, you know,

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Speaker 3: throughout the Northern Rockies, right. So you know, I think

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Speaker 3: I think that's a really important concept that, yeah, you

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Speaker 3: have the the impact created at the level, at the

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Speaker 3: spatial extent of the road itself right again, that dead

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Speaker 3: you know, that dead buck by the side of the highway.

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Speaker 3: But you know what we what we don't see is

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Speaker 3: all of the animals who can't complete their migrations find food,

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Speaker 3: would find mates, you know, who are being genetically fragmented

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Speaker 3: by roads. So you know, that's another thing that rody

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Speaker 3: Kelogy tries to do, I think, is take this broader

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Speaker 3: perspective on the impacts of roads that kind of transcend

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Speaker 3: the relatively limited spatial area of the highway itself.

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Speaker 2: And you know, another thing that you write about that

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Speaker 2: I've also seen personally is the you know, the tag

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Speaker 2: along with roads, which is people. So wherever you put people,

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Speaker 2: wherever you put roads, you add people to the landscape.

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Speaker 2: You create a human presence and pressure on wildlife, and

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Speaker 2: so you get you get animals avoiding roads because of

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Speaker 2: that typical you know, human activity there, So you get

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Speaker 2: you know, as a hunter, we see this all the time.

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Speaker 2: As we're trying to you know, as we're trying to

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Speaker 2: fire out, well where are we going to find the animals?

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Speaker 2: One of the first things you look at is, well,

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Speaker 2: where's the farthest I can get from a road? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: And that's the same thing that a deer or an

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Speaker 2: elk or a bear is thinking too, right, So every

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Speaker 2: time a new road is punched in and you lose

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Speaker 2: a little bit of that sweet spot. As you know.

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Speaker 2: I've seen maps like this that were they show all

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Speaker 2: the different all the different roads criss crossing and you

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Speaker 2: can find, you know, the actual area of area of

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Speaker 2: zones like you, I don't know what the actual number is,

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Speaker 2: but I know that the farthest you can get from

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Speaker 2: a road anywhere in the lower forty eight is not

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Speaker 2: that many miles from a road, and there are not

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Speaker 2: many places you can get more than five, ten, twelve

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Speaker 2: miles away from road in any direction. And that's in

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Speaker 2: the wildest places we have left most spots, you're always

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Speaker 2: within a mile or two miles, and critters react to that.

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Speaker 2: Critters behave differently because of that. Some species simply can't

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Speaker 2: exist because of that. So there's there's this far reaching

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Speaker 2: set of of weird things that come along with them,

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Speaker 2: poachers and top of hunters, on top of all the

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Speaker 2: other things that could possibly tag along too. So it's

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Speaker 2: invasive species. We bring all sorts of critters with us

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Speaker 2: along the roads too. Yeah, it's there's a lot that

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Speaker 2: I don't think many of us think about, but totally

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Speaker 2: it's present.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And I think you know to your

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Speaker 3: point about you know, about about animals, especially ungulates, you know,

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Speaker 3: responding to those roads. I mean I was talking in

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Speaker 3: the course of working this book, you know, I talked

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Speaker 3: to a Forest Service biologist in eastern Oregon. She told

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Speaker 3: me this, you know, kind of amazing story in the

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Speaker 3: Forest Service. You know, of course, this incredible steward of

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Speaker 3: public lands, right, but also has the single largest road

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Speaker 3: network on earth. You know, something like three hundred and

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Speaker 3: seventy thousand miles of road on you know, in our

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Speaker 3: National forest. I mean there are you know, forests in

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Speaker 3: Idaho and Montana that have higher road densities than New

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Speaker 3: York City, right, and all of those wild It's crazy. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: And so all of those roads, of course, are you know,

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Speaker 3: how we access nature. And you know I love driving

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Speaker 3: on forest roads out here in Colorado, right, That's how

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Speaker 3: I you know, reach fishing holes and trailheads and all

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Speaker 3: kinds of great stuff. But you know, the animals are

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Speaker 3: smart and they know that. You know, hey, especially during

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Speaker 3: hunting season, you know, the roads bring the cars, the

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Speaker 3: cars bring the people, The people bring the you know,

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Speaker 3: the sticks that go bang and kill you. And you

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Speaker 3: know what this biolotist was telling me is that actually

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Speaker 3: in eastern Oregon, you know, what she's seen is a

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Speaker 3: lot of elk leaving public land and ending up on

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Speaker 3: private land where, you know, where hunters can't access them

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Speaker 3: at all, because you know, those elk recognize that, you know,

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Speaker 3: those really dense road networks on public land and the

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Speaker 3: people that come with them are a threat to them.

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Speaker 3: And so, you know, from a hunting standpoint, yeah, I

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Speaker 3: think it's you know, probably a double edged sword, and

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Speaker 3: that you know, roads permit access to an extent, but

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Speaker 3: as you say, you know, they also create tougher hunting

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Speaker 3: conditions in a you know a lot of respects and

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Speaker 3: you know, really provoke this kind of aversive response in

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Speaker 3: a lot of animals.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so roads have far reaching, surprise impacts on wildlife.

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Speaker 2: I feel like we've established that the obvious one of

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Speaker 2: those impacts is simply killing animals like roadkill, car deer collisions.

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Speaker 2: And in the introduction to your book, that first chapter

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Speaker 2: you kind of discuss how roadkills now the leading direct

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Speaker 2: cause of mortality in land based mammals, so that more

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Speaker 2: animals die from cars than do from any other direct

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Speaker 2: you know impact. They are also one of the most

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Speaker 2: dangerous animals or deer excuse me, are one of the

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Speaker 2: most dangerous animals to people because of road car vehicle collisions.

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Speaker 2: Can you can you discuss a little bit more that

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Speaker 2: direct impact roadkill with deer and other big critters, and

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Speaker 2: how that's both damaging our property, hurting deer in wildlife populations,

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Speaker 2: and also a lethal issue for humans. That's kind of

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Speaker 2: a double whammy across the boarder of problems.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, Yeah, you're you're right that, you know,

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Speaker 3: the white tail deer is this single most dangerous wild

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Speaker 3: animal in North America. And that's obviously not the deer's fault, right,

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Speaker 3: that's automotive society's fault. But you know, I do think

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Speaker 3: that goes to show how how frequent and problematic these

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Speaker 3: collisions are. You know, more more than four hundred drivers

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Speaker 3: killed in deer crashes every every year in the US,

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Speaker 3: and that's you know, probably a dramatic underestimyre, right. I've

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Speaker 3: talked to state troopers who say, yeah, you know, oftentimes,

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Speaker 3: you know, you get a single car, a single vehicle

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Speaker 3: fatal accident where somebody hits a telephone poll or a tree.

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Speaker 3: Well that was probably swerving to avoid deer other wildlife, right,

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Speaker 3: the person didn't unfortunately survive to you know, explain the incident.

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Speaker 3: But you know, probably those four hundred collisions are you know,

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Speaker 3: dramatic underestimate if the real scale of the problem. And

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Speaker 3: then you've got you know, the the economic impact into

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Speaker 3: that property damage that you mentioned. You know, we know

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Speaker 3: that the average deer collision costs society more than nine

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Speaker 3: thousand dollars in hospital bills, vehicle repairs, insurance costs. The

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Speaker 3: loss to hunters is you know, is factored into that

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Speaker 3: equation as well. And you know, obviously deer aren't the

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Speaker 3: only big critters out there, right. You know, here in

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Speaker 3: Colorado we've got elk. You know, the average elk collision

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Speaker 3: costs something like twenty one thousand dollars per incident. You know,

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Speaker 3: the average moose collision is more than forty thousand dollars, right,

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Speaker 3: because moose are just so huge, of course, and have

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Speaker 3: much higher driver fatality rates. Collectively, all of these large

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Speaker 3: animal crashes are costing the US more than ten billion

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Speaker 3: dollars with a B every every year, and it's one

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Speaker 3: of the few crash types that's really increasing too. You know,

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Speaker 3: we're seeing these incidents become more common, you know, more

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Speaker 3: people driving around the landscape. You know, white tail populations

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Speaker 3: in many places are increasing, you know, causing more risk. Right. So, yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's this huge, i think relatively underdiscussed public health and

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Speaker 3: safety problem, as well as of course a big ecological problem.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So in the hunting world, there's always this rumor

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Speaker 2: that the car insurance lobby is working behind the scenes

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Speaker 2: trying to knock down the deer population. So there's people

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Speaker 2: in the state capital telling our fish and game departments like,

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Speaker 2: kill all the deer, kill all the deer, et cetera,

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Speaker 2: et cetera. That's like one of the old wives tales

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Speaker 2: within the hunting world. I've heard from your research and

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Speaker 2: in your experience as you were diving into this, did

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Speaker 2: you learn anything about how insurance companies are in any

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Speaker 2: kind of way dealing with the roadkill issue, addressing the

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Speaker 2: roadkill issue, advocating for solutions to it. Is that something

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Speaker 2: that ever came up in your explorations.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's funny if people people often ask that,

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Speaker 3: and it is this really intuitive logical connection, right and

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Speaker 3: and you know, in my experience, they haven't really gotten

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Speaker 3: involved in this in this shoe at all. You know,

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Speaker 3: I've seen an insurance company or to say the right

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Speaker 3: things about the importance of preventing this, but I've never

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Speaker 3: really seen any insurance company, you know, put their put

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Speaker 3: their money where their mouth is. You know. There was

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Speaker 3: unfortunately here in Colorado, there was a proposal of bill

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Speaker 3: that just that just failed at least for now, that

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Speaker 3: would have added I think something like three bucks to

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Speaker 3: UH annual insurance premiums, and that money would have gone

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Speaker 3: partially towards you know, funding wildlife crossings and fences and

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Speaker 3: other you know, ro kil mitigation systems. And I think

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Speaker 3: I think Triple A and maybe an insurance company or

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Speaker 3: two you know again said the right things about supporting

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Speaker 3: that bill, though it didn't ultimately pass. But yeah, I

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Speaker 3: would I would love to see UH the insurance industry

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Speaker 3: getting more involved in you know, funding those those wildlife

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Speaker 3: passages and solutions and fences and other other solutions, because

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Speaker 3: you know, they're the they're the beneficiaries. Right when those

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Speaker 3: those those deer collisions decreased so yeah, if there are

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Speaker 3: any insurance executives listening to this podcast, you know, you

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Speaker 3: should should get on that, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So something that was interesting you mentioned how we're

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Speaker 2: having more car deer collisions now than ever before. Uh.

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Speaker 2: But but at what point within the book you wrote

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Speaker 2: about the fact that, you know, there's a certain number

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Speaker 2: of like as as you were kind of writing about

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Speaker 2: the history, and as the road system was built out.

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Speaker 2: Simultaneous to that, the white tailed deer population was growing,

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Speaker 2: and so we were seeing car deer collisions rise and

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Speaker 2: rise and rise. But then at some point it actually

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Speaker 2: slowed down and we started having less collisions and fewer

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Speaker 2: crossings because there was like a a threshold pass where

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Speaker 2: there was so much traffic that it was actually keeping

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Speaker 2: animals from eve from trying to cross over the road.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 2: And I know that there were some other interesting studies

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Speaker 2: in science that you had pointed to that kind of showcase,

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Speaker 2: like a certain number of cars per hour or during

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Speaker 2: a certain amount of time, you know, might allow certain

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Speaker 2: animals to cross, but others wouldn't. Can you just vibrate

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Speaker 2: a little bit on some of the things you found

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Speaker 2: when it came to that, you know, what degree of

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Speaker 2: traffic actually impacts animal crossings and things along those lines.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely right. So you know, so I think I

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Speaker 3: think it's important first to think about how different species

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Speaker 3: understand traffic and what roads are.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: So, you know, they're guroty collegists to kind of classify

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Speaker 3: animals based on their their road response. Uh, and so

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Speaker 3: on one end of the spectrum, we've got animals who

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Speaker 3: are non responders to traffic, right, animals who don't really

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Speaker 3: understand what traffic is, and we'll just try to cross

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Speaker 3: the road no matter what, and they're you know, we've

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Speaker 3: got animals like frogs and salamanders and turtles you know,

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Speaker 3: maybe not like the smartest creators on Earth, don't really understand,

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Speaker 3: you know, what a car road is. And those animals

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Speaker 3: are just trying to cross the road to you know,

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Speaker 3: get to their breeding ponds and wetlands no matter what,

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Speaker 3: and they're just getting crushed and mass right, So those

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Speaker 3: are the non responders. Then we've got on the other

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Speaker 3: end of the spectrum the avoids, you know, animals who

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Speaker 3: really do understand that roads and vehicles are dangerous and

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Speaker 3: we'll just steer clear. So like grizzly bears are sort

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Speaker 3: of the classic avoid where even one car every ten minutes,

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Speaker 3: you know, a really rural road in some cases enough

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Speaker 3: to prevent a grizzly bear from crossing all together, and

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Speaker 3: that creates its own problems. Right, those animals are really

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Speaker 3: easily fragmented by by by traffic. And then deer are

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Speaker 3: somewhere in the middle, and they're what what scientists are

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Speaker 3: called speeders, which basically means that they're they're looking for

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Speaker 3: gaps in traffic that they can just run through. Right,

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Speaker 3: and you know humans are also speeders. You know, you

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Speaker 3: can imagine like standing by the side of a busy highway.

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Speaker 3: You know, you look in both ways waiting for that,

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Speaker 3: you know, that gap between vehicles that will let you

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Speaker 3: run through traffic to get to the other side. And

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Speaker 3: that's exactly what deer are doing. You know, they understand

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Speaker 3: the cars are dangerous, especially you know ones living in

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Speaker 3: relatively irb in places, and they're they're just trying to,

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Speaker 3: you know, get through that wall of vehicles. So you

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Speaker 3: can imagine right at at lower traffic volumes, you know,

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Speaker 3: a relatively rural road, you know they can the cars

396
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Speaker 3: are infrequent enough that they can run through those gaps

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Speaker 3: if you have a really busy interstate highway like I

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Speaker 3: eighty or something, the cars are so dense that there

399
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Speaker 3: are no gaps, right, and the deer don't even attempt

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Speaker 3: to cross. The highest roadkill rates that we see are

401
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Speaker 3: on moderately trafficked highways, you know, like typically we're talking

402
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Speaker 3: about you know, state highways that are getting you know,

403
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Speaker 3: let's say, you know, five thousand cars a day. That's

404
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Speaker 3: when there are enough cars for it to be dangerous,

405
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Speaker 3: but few enough cars that the deer are still trying

406
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Speaker 3: to run through those gaps, right, So, you know, along

407
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Speaker 3: that's kind of one of the ironies of the you know,

408
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Speaker 3: the interstate highway system is that along you know, some interstates,

409
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Speaker 3: you really don't see a lot of roadkill, right because

410
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Speaker 3: there's just so much traffic thick that the you know,

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Speaker 3: the deer and other animals aren't attempting to run from

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Speaker 3: one side of the highway to the other. And so

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Speaker 3: you might, you know, you might look at the at

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Speaker 3: the shoulder and not see too many carcasses and say, well, hey,

415
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Speaker 3: you know, what's the big deal, right, But then you know,

416
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Speaker 3: that's when you're getting that fragmentation issue, right, The fact

417
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Speaker 3: that the animals can't move from one habitat to another,

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Speaker 3: they can't find food, they can't find mates, they can't

419
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Speaker 3: complete those long distance migrations in places like you know,

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Speaker 3: Wyoming and Utah where animals really do have to move

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Speaker 3: a very long distance to survive. So yeah, that's the

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Speaker 3: that's one of the you know, one of the kind

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Speaker 3: of the ironies I think of roadkill is that, you know,

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Speaker 3: a relatively rural road and a relatively high volume interstate

425
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Speaker 3: highway can have kind of the same low amount of roadkill,

426
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Speaker 3: but they're you know, animals are experiencing them in very

427
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Speaker 3: different ways.

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Speaker 2: So one of the interesting things when it comes to

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Speaker 2: the you brought deer a couple times in like white

430
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 2: tail deer versus maybe mule deer or other western ungulates.

431
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 2: And you can correct me if I'm wrong on this,

432
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 2: but my assumption would be that more white tail deer

433
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,920
Speaker 2: get killed by cars on an annual basis than mule

434
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,920
Speaker 2: deer or you know, pronghorn or elk. But I'm also

435
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,680
Speaker 2: assuming that white tailed deer do not have as large

436
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,959
Speaker 2: of a negative don't experience as large of a negative

437
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:33,120
Speaker 2: impact as a mule deer does, because those roads act

438
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,159
Speaker 2: as a different kind of blocker for them, despite the

439
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 2: fact that maybe ten white tails get killed to every

440
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 2: one mule deer. Is that true and if so, why

441
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:41,679
Speaker 2: might that be?

442
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you're definitely right. I mean, first of all,

443
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 3: they're just a lot more white tail deer in North

444
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 3: America than new Leader obviously. So you know, when you

445
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 3: look at you know, the states that have the highest

446
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 3: animal collision rates right there, they're generally eastern and Midwestern states.

447
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 3: You know, it's like West Virginia, Pennsylvania, you know, Michigan,

448
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,200
Speaker 3: Montana off and kind of slips in there. But they've

449
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 3: got some white tails too, So you're, you know, you're

450
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 3: you're totally right that a lot more white tails are,

451
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 3: you know, just being hit hit by cars. But I

452
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:12,919
Speaker 3: also think I would I would also certainly agree that

453
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 3: you know that cars are having a much bigger impact

454
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:20,680
Speaker 3: on mule deer from a population perspective, because you know, again,

455
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 3: I mean in places like Wyoming, you know, in Colorado

456
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 3: where I live, you know, these animals are undertaking these

457
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 3: really long journeys, right, these these really long migrations. You know,

458
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,919
Speaker 3: it's not like living in Pennsylvania, where you know, the

459
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 3: weather's not too harsh, and you know there aren't the

460
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 3: mountains aren't too huge, and there's kind of you know,

461
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 3: plenty of corn and other anthropogenic you know, human based

462
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,119
Speaker 3: food resources out there for them, right. You know, a

463
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:50,199
Speaker 3: white tail deer in Pennsylvania can be pretty sedentary, right

464
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 3: and find you know, find food year round and you know,

465
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 3: escape the weather. Whereas you know, a mule deer living

466
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 3: in Wyoming, you know, has to this really long journey.

467
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 3: You know, they're moving from their their winter range. You know,

468
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 3: these lower elevation valleys, uh that get super hot in

469
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,919
Speaker 3: the summer up into the mountains. Right. They're kind of

470
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,359
Speaker 3: surfing that green wave of of of new growth, and

471
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,440
Speaker 3: then they're coming back. You know, they're deer in Wyoming

472
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 3: that are going three hundred miles round trip between these

473
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 3: really ephemeral seasonal resources in this you know, super harsh

474
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 3: Western environment. And and of course the problem is that

475
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 3: you know, if you're gonna walk three hundred miles anywhere

476
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 3: in the US, you know you're gonna end up crossing

477
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:32,440
Speaker 3: a lot of roads, right.

478
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 2: Uh.

479
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 3: And you know, in the in the book, I talk

480
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 3: about this very famous herd of mule deer in in

481
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 3: southwestern Wyoming in the Red Desert, you know, and these

482
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,679
Speaker 3: are these are these long distance migrants uh and the

483
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 3: and you know there there winter range abuts I eighty right,

484
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 3: which is you know, again of course the highest the

485
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 3: highest volume road uh in in in Wyoming. Uh. And

486
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,880
Speaker 3: you know some years, you know, during harsh during during

487
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,159
Speaker 3: those those harshest winter, you know, those deer will just

488
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 3: pull up on the north side of A. Eighty looking

489
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 3: for an opportunity to cross, and they just can't find

490
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,199
Speaker 3: one because the traffic volume is so high. And you know,

491
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 3: there have been winters where forty percent of that herd

492
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,879
Speaker 3: will actually starve because all of the good forage is

493
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,439
Speaker 3: south of A. Eighty and they can't they can't cross

494
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 3: that highway. Right. So from a population level standpoint, you know,

495
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 3: that's probably worse than roadkill, right that. You know that

496
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,360
Speaker 3: a herd of a thousand deer, you know, they could

497
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 3: handle a few collisions on the highway. What they can't

498
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 3: handle is losing access to so much of their winter range, right.

499
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 3: I mean, historically, you know, those deer might have gone

500
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,880
Speaker 3: as far south as Colorado, and you know, now they're

501
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 3: stuck up against the interstate. And you know from a

502
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:46,640
Speaker 3: population level standpoint, that's a catastrophe for him.

503
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I was traveling traveling out to our cabin

504
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,120
Speaker 2: in Idaho a few years back. I guess this would

505
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 2: have been two years ago. And our route takes us

506
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 2: long eighty until at Rock Springs, and then he hang

507
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 2: a north turn up one ninety one. I guess it'd

508
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:09,680
Speaker 2: be heading up into uh like Pindale, going towards Pinedale. Yeah,

509
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 2: going right towards Pinedale, and along that route, I'm pretty

510
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 2: sure this is two springs ago or one spring ago.

511
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 2: All along the road, along all these fences, you would

512
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 2: see these white ovals on the ground, and you would

513
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,719
Speaker 2: see dozens, at times hundreds of them scattered across the sagebrush.

514
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 2: And at first I thought it was patches of snow,

515
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 2: and then my son asked what it was, and then

516
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,439
Speaker 2: I took a closer look, and I realized that what

517
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 2: I was seeing scattered all across the sage brush for

518
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 2: miles and miles and miles and miles, were the white

519
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 2: bellies of dead pronghorn Jesus. And what had happened is

520
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 2: some people might recall reading about and again I'm gonna

521
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 2: get my year wrong. It was either the last spring

522
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 2: or the spring before. But there was this mass die

523
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 2: off of pronghorn in that herd that just this year

524
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 2: came out exploring what exactly was to blame, and there

525
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 2: was there have been some disease issues, and then there

526
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 2: was also worries about starvation. And what the study came

527
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 2: back and showed was that the vast majority of the

528
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 2: deaths could be attributed to pronghorn being hung up by fences,

529
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 2: stalled out by not being able to cross the road,

530
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 2: not being able to get to the fences, and then

531
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 2: being stuck there, not able to finish their migrations, and

532
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 2: then ultimately starving. And so between that and the disease

533
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 2: pressures that had you know, catastrophic catastrophe for losses, I

534
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 2: mean the tens of thousands. And that was a very

535
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 2: eye opening recent example of exactly what you're talking about,

536
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 2: and that's happening, like you mentioned, not just with pronghorn,

537
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 2: but mule deer and other critters too. And I was

538
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 2: going to ask you which is worse, the direct roadkill

539
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 2: or the stalling of the migration, and you answered that,

540
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 2: But I'm curious if you could expand on that just

541
00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 2: a little bit more when it comes to, you know,

542
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 2: how these migrations are impacted by roads, and in some

543
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 2: of the research around that, there's been such interesting stuff,

544
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 2: especially in Wyoming studying, you know, the the actual points

545
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 2: where these animals want to move through or have to

546
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 2: move through, and how there's kind of unique roadblocks built in.

547
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 2: Can you just elaborate a little bit more on what

548
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 2: migration research and studies now are showing us.

549
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. And you know this chapter of the books,

550
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 3: you know, really drawn from the work of the Wyoming

551
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 3: Migration Initiative. You know, guys like Matt Kaufman and Hal Sawyer,

552
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 3: you know, who are some of the best mule deer

553
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 3: biologists and migration ecologists on Earth. And you know, I

554
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 3: had the chance to go out and uh, you know,

555
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 3: collar collar deer with with with with Matt and his

556
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 3: crew for for a few days. And that was, you know,

557
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 3: really one of the great experiences of my of my life.

558
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 3: It was so much fun and it just you know,

559
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 3: just gave me so much appreciation for mule deer. You know, this,

560
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 3: these these animals that just you know, hang out in

561
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 3: my backyard here in Colorado, you know, and try to

562
00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 3: trample my dog and you know we see them all

563
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 3: the time, and you know, but but we but we

564
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 3: see them during these really limited windows in some ways,

565
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 3: right we'd so you know, they show up in our

566
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 3: communities and then we don't see you know, the rest

567
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 3: of the migration. But these are animals that are undertaking

568
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 3: these you know, incredible journeys. They're doing it, you know,

569
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 3: with these amazing spatial memories. Right, they're great cartographers. You know,

570
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 3: they learn their migration routs. They don't you know, they

571
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 3: don't they're not instinctive migrators. And so you know, migration

572
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 3: is kind of this incredible cultural phenomenon that herds learn

573
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 3: together and that you know, dose teach their their fonds. Uh.

574
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 3: And that's a lot of the work that you know,

575
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 3: that that that Wilding Migration Eddiship has done is you know,

576
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 3: figuring out how these animals understand their migrations and how

577
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 3: they time their migrations, and that timing ends up being

578
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 3: a really important piece of the puzzle. Right. So you know,

579
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 3: the term that you know that the w m I

580
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 3: folks and you know other diologists use to describe what

581
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 3: you know, these deer are doing is they're they're surfing

582
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 3: the green wave. Right, there's this this there's this wave

583
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 3: of green up in the spring that kind of lines

584
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 3: up you know, the slopes, and those animals are following

585
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 3: that green up when the you know, when the plants

586
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 3: are the most nutritious and tender uh and uh and

587
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 3: and best for them because you know, of course a

588
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 3: lot of these you know, these migrating deer are pregnant

589
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 3: as well, which is just also mind blowing to think

590
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 3: about that. You know, these animals are undertaking these journeys,

591
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 3: you know O they're carrying uh, you know, carrying their

592
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 3: fons and so that's you know, that's really one of

593
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 3: the I think the underappreciated problems that you know that

594
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 3: roads create is not only do they not only do

595
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 3: it prevent animals from you know, from from crossing, but

596
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 3: they can just disrupt the timing of that green wave surfing, right.

597
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 3: I mean those you know, those prong horn you mentioned.

598
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 3: You know, this happens to deer too, you know where

599
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 3: if they're just delayed along along a busy highway. Uh,

600
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 3: you know, they can kind of fall out of sync

601
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 3: with that green wave surfing, as I understand it.

602
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 2: Uh.

603
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 3: And you know, and that has these really significant sub

604
00:32:58,760 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 3: leathal effects.

605
00:32:59,640 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 2: Right.

606
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 3: You know, maybe uh, you know, you don't get hit

607
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 3: by a car if you're you know, migrating dough meal deer,

608
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 3: but you know, maybe you don't feed quite as well,

609
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 3: and maybe you're you know, your fawn isn't quite as

610
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 3: quite as healthy and you know can't escape you know,

611
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 3: a bear or a wolf as as a consequence of that. Right,

612
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 3: So that's not you know, direct road mortality necessarily, but

613
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 3: you know it's this kind of subtler, sub lethal effect

614
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 3: that can result in that, you know, in deer really

615
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 3: having having problems. And you know, I mean there's been

616
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 3: you know, lots of lots of great research. You know,

617
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 3: meal deer are really declining dramatically, you know in Wyoming

618
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 3: and then here in here in Colorado, and uh you know,

619
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 3: I mean the biggest factor there, according to some studies,

620
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 3: is residential development. Right. It's all those all those roads, uh,

621
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 3: you know, going into places which are you know, worse

622
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 3: for deer uh than you know, other forms of development,

623
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 3: even like oil and gastril. You know, it's just it's

624
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 3: just the presence of roads and vehicles and subdivisions on

625
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 3: the landscape that you know, cut off those migration routes

626
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 3: or this up to their timing and ultimately lead to

627
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 3: uh to population decline.

628
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, we're getting to a point where, you know,

629
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 2: the natural world has been so crisscrossed with roads and

630
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,800
Speaker 2: development that not only do we have these like moving

631
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 2: fences as you call them, but we're creating islands. We're

632
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 2: creating metaphorical islands of even though they're not surrounded by water,

633
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,280
Speaker 2: We're creating wildlife habitat that's surrounded by by an ocean

634
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,879
Speaker 2: of development and roadways, and that has a whole other

635
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 2: set of sublethal factors, you know, on top of just

636
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 2: the direct mortality, on top of the delayed migrations, on

637
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 2: top of everything you just mentioned. You know, this isn't

638
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 2: as applicable to mule deer or prong horns, but with

639
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 2: grizzly bears or something like you know, panthers down in Florida, uh,

640
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 2: you start dealing with genetic issues right where some of

641
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 2: these species are so deterred by roads and development that,

642
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 2: like you said, they simply won't cross. So, for example,

643
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,959
Speaker 2: with grizzly bears, you've got a subpopulation around the Greater

644
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 2: Yellowy ecosystem and a subpopulation up in the northern continental right,

645
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 2: and you've got you know, seventy miles between the two,

646
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 2: and they just won't cross that last seventy miles because

647
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,240
Speaker 2: there's too large of roads, there's too much development there.

648
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 2: It's keeping genetics from passing between the two populations and

649
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 2: getting the diversity that you know, these species need to

650
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 2: maintain long term viability. Is that something that you learned

651
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 2: anything more about through this process too, the genetic implications

652
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 2: or any other implications of that kind of island effect

653
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,839
Speaker 2: that we're seeing happening more and more, not just with

654
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 2: big mammals but other critters too.

655
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:47,879
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, And I mean you're look, you're exactly right.

656
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 3: You know, you could take you could take a you know,

657
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 3: a snippet of DNA from a grizzly bear and you know,

658
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 3: and say with unerring accuracy, which side of which highway

659
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,439
Speaker 3: in the Northern Rockies that bear was born at? Because

660
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,280
Speaker 3: you know, those those those highways, you know, I ninety

661
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 3: Highway to you know, all of those, all of those

662
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 3: those highways you know running east west, you know through

663
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,840
Speaker 3: Montana are huge, you know, huge, huge barriers. And I

664
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 3: think that's you know, that's one interesting kind of geographic

665
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 3: piece too that I think about a lot, is that

666
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,760
Speaker 3: you know, our are our mountain ranges in the west

667
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:24,280
Speaker 3: tend to run north south, and so do our valleys,

668
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,840
Speaker 3: which means that you know, animals are often moving north

669
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 3: to south, and so many of our big highways you

670
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 3: know I ninety, I eighty, I seventy are running east

671
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 3: west right, So we have this, you know, this kind

672
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 3: of this inherent conflict where a lot of our transportation

673
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:41,280
Speaker 3: routes are at sort of perpendicular odds with our animal

674
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 3: movement corridors, which is you know, a huge, huge challenge.

675
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 3: And certainly that you know that genetic fragmentation you mentioned,

676
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 3: I mean, that's a gigantic issue. You know. One of

677
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,839
Speaker 3: the the the poster populations for that, right are these

678
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 3: very famous mountain lions who live in southern California just

679
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 3: west of Los Angeles. You know, I bet of listeners

680
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 3: have heard of P twenty two, you know, probably the

681
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,400
Speaker 3: most famous mountain lion on Earth while he was alive,

682
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 3: and he was part of this little population in the

683
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 3: southern Santa Monica is near Los Angeles, where you know,

684
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 3: as you say, they're basically this there's this island of

685
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 3: habitat in this ocean of freeways. You know, you've got

686
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 3: the one O one, the four oh five, and the five,

687
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 3: you know, the biggest freeways on Earth, you know, running

688
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 3: through that landscape or sorry, let me take it against

689
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 3: I know actually actually don't think the five goes through there.

690
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:31,959
Speaker 3: But you know you've got you've got the one O one,

691
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 3: you've got the four H five, you know, some of

692
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 3: the some of the busiest freeways on Earth, basically fragmenting

693
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,759
Speaker 3: that landscape and preventing those mountain lions from dispersing out

694
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 3: to find mates. And so you know, in that little population,

695
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 3: scientists have seen individual mountain lions, male mountain lions who

696
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 3: have mate it with their own daughters, granddaughters and great

697
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 3: granddaughters because they just can't find an unrelated animal to

698
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 3: mate with. And you know the other thing that uh,

699
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 3: you know, biologist see in that population is lots of

700
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 3: fighting between nound lions, right, lots of mortality. And you know,

701
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 3: these these lion conflicts because you know, those those younger

702
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 3: male cats especially of course, they want to disperse out right,

703
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 3: they want to get away from their their fathers and

704
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 3: the other big males, uh, to go find their own territory.

705
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,359
Speaker 3: But you know, if if the one O one, which

706
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 3: has three hundred thousand cars a day, is in your way, right,

707
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:27,879
Speaker 3: you can't go find your own territory. And so you're

708
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 3: you know, stuck on this island with all of these uh,

709
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 3: you know, these big dominant males, and you know, you

710
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 3: end up in conflicts. So you know, they see, yeah,

711
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 3: they see that that genetic fragmentation, but also you know,

712
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 3: the squeezing of territories and all of this lethal conflict

713
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 3: between you know, between individual mountain lions because of that

714
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 3: that fragmentation. So that island effect that you're you're describing

715
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 3: marks is exactly right, and it's a huge problem. You've turned,

716
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 3: you know, we've turned all of our terrestrial landscapes into

717
00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 3: a series of islands.

718
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:03,839
Speaker 2: I've done a good bit of reading about that same

719
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 2: thing happening down in southern Florida and the Everglades and

720
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,799
Speaker 2: how that's led to serious inbreeding effects that have led

721
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,880
Speaker 2: to you know, reduced to rival rates of kittens and

722
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 2: all sorts of wild things happening down there too. So

723
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 2: it's a pathway to slow but certain demise unless something's

724
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,800
Speaker 2: done about it. So we've talked about the direct impacts

725
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 2: of road killed, like white tailed deer smashing up cars

726
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:32,279
Speaker 2: and getting killed. We've talked about migrations being impacted. We've

727
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:36,839
Speaker 2: talked about genetic diversity being hampered. A lot of these

728
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 2: things have all been about large mammals, which are the

729
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 2: most obvious of animals to be impacted by roadways and

730
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 2: our roads. But you spend a good amount of time

731
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 2: talking about something much much smaller, but equally important to

732
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 2: a lot of the more charismatic things that we focus on,

733
00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 2: like deer and the wild places they inhabit, and that

734
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 2: being dollinators in insects and butterflies and things like that.

735
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 2: Can you can you speak a little bit about that

736
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 2: how roads might be impacting our insects and why that

737
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:11,399
Speaker 2: might be something we should pay attention to as well.

738
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, that's it's an interesting it's a it's

739
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,399
Speaker 3: kind of a double edged sword in a lot of ways,

740
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 3: because in a sense, you know, roads are habitat for insects, right. Uh.

741
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 3: You know you think about states like uh, you know, Iowa,

742
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 3: Illinois or Kansas. You know these these these aren't states, uh,

743
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,320
Speaker 3: you know that unlike states in the West. You know,

744
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 3: they're not blessed with a huge amount of public land, right. Uh.

745
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 3: And so you know, in many Midwestern states, roadsides are

746
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 3: actually the largest form of public land. You know, there

747
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:42,880
Speaker 3: are these these strips of of in many cases, you know,

748
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 3: native prairie plants that follow highways.

749
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 2: Uh.

750
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:48,760
Speaker 3: And they're these you know, these these corridors of habitat

751
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 3: in this monoculture of corn and soy and and and lawns. Right. So, uh,

752
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 3: you know, there is this potential resource there. You know there,

753
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 3: I mean, if you're a monarch butterfly, you know, has

754
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 3: to lay your eggs on milk weed. Well there are

755
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 3: you know, hundreds of millions of milk weed stems along roadsides.

756
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 2: Uh.

757
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:10,720
Speaker 3: In in in the Midwest. You know that the monarch

758
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,800
Speaker 3: butterfly migration uh. You know that runs through the Midwest,

759
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,879
Speaker 3: you know, basically follows I thirty five right from from

760
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 3: Minnesota to Texas. So there's you know, there's a great

761
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 3: resource there potentially, but it's also it's a it's a

762
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 3: dangerous resource, right you know, of course the road is

763
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:28,320
Speaker 3: a dangerous place.

764
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 2: Uh.

765
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 3: And you know millions of migrating monarch butterflies are killed

766
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 3: by cars every year. We don't really think about insects

767
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 3: being road kill, right, but it is this enormous source

768
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:41,359
Speaker 3: of mortality for migrating monarchs and you know all kinds

769
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 3: of other insects. And then there are all of those

770
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 3: those chemical effects as well, you know, all of the

771
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 3: you know, the road salts being added to highways. What

772
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 3: does that do uh to you know, to the the

773
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 3: nutritional value of the plants that those butterflies are feeding on.

774
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 3: What about you know, the cadmium and the zinc and

775
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 3: the copper, uh you know, coming off our vehicles and

776
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 3: ending up in soils. You know, what does that do

777
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 3: uh to? Uh to to pollinators? So there, you know,

778
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 3: there's there's the direct mortality of cars, and then there's

779
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:11,839
Speaker 3: the you know, the kind of the potentially problematic sub

780
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 3: lethal effects again along roads. So you know that's not

781
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,720
Speaker 3: to say that that you know, we shouldn't have native

782
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:23,320
Speaker 3: wildflowers and milkweed along our roads, right. I mean I've

783
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 3: you know, talked to biologists too calculated that you know,

784
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:32,360
Speaker 3: roadsides are producing more monarch butterflies than they're than they're killing,

785
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 3: and that you know, roadsides are ultimately uh you know,

786
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 3: a valuable form of habitat, but again, you know they're

787
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:39,280
Speaker 3: they're not the best habitat.

788
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 1: Right.

789
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:41,839
Speaker 3: If you said, you know, here's a million dollars you

790
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 3: can restore, uh, the side of an interstate highway, or

791
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 3: you can restore a cornfield far from the highway. I

792
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 3: restore the cornfield, right, So, uh, yeah, roads are habitat,

793
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 3: but they're you know, they're a dangerous resource for these

794
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 3: creators too.

795
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:01,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's uh, it is really interesting. You've got like

796
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 2: an attract and repel effect in that, like you're attracting

797
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 2: a lot of these species there with you know, it's

798
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 2: I think there's something called is it the Monarch Highway?

799
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:13,919
Speaker 2: Is that a stretch that you're ready, I think right

800
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 2: where they're trying to actively plant more milkweed and trying

801
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 2: to produce habitat. But then there's this debate about whether

802
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 2: or not you're killing more than you're helping but zooming out. Now,

803
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 2: I feel like there's three kind of hot buzzwords these

804
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,879
Speaker 2: days related to the solution side, the now what part

805
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 2: of this whole conversation, and these three buzzwords that you

806
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:41,839
Speaker 2: hear a lot these days, and that seem to have

807
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 2: a lot of support even across the political spectrum would

808
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 2: be corridors, connectivity, and migration routes. If there was if

809
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 2: you wanted to like do like a game where you

810
00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 2: would take various environmental buzzwords and put them into a

811
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 2: ven diagram where there'd be some people on the left,

812
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 2: some people on the right, and then there's like the

813
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 2: intersection in the middle. I think those three things will

814
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 2: probably meet in the middle of that Ven diagram is

815
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 2: something that both sides can generally support. I think as

816
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 2: evidence by the fact that during the first Trump administration,

817
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 2: one of the good things that happened for the environment

818
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 2: during that period was some progress on wildlife migration, conservation,

819
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:30,439
Speaker 2: and some corridor work and things like that. So why

820
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 2: do you think that is? Why is there bipartisan support

821
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 2: for addressing the issues you're talking about right now?

822
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a really good question, and I mean it

823
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 3: is kind of amazing just how bipartisan that support is

824
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 3: and how and how universal that support is. Right and

825
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 3: there you know, there's been public polling around wildlife crossings,

826
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 3: you know, overpasses and underpasses for big game and other critters.

827
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:58,319
Speaker 3: And you know here in Colorado, I think eighty five

828
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:02,719
Speaker 3: percent of residents support more wildlife crossings. You know, you

829
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 3: see the same numbers in Oregon and Nevada and all,

830
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 3: you know, a bunch of Western states. And you know

831
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 3: you couldn't get eighty five percent of Colorad's degree. The

832
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:13,239
Speaker 3: sky is blue, right, it's it's you know, it's it's

833
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 3: just a mind blowing you know how how universal the

834
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,840
Speaker 3: desire to reconnect these these habitats is. And you know,

835
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:21,319
Speaker 3: I mean I do think that a lot of that

836
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 3: actually comes from hunters.

837
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 2: Uh.

838
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 3: You know, you think about Wyoming as a great case study.

839
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 3: You know, Wyoming has some of the some of the

840
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 3: most and the best wildlife crossings, uh in in the country.

841
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:35,359
Speaker 3: You know, when you drove up I ninety or one

842
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:37,719
Speaker 3: ninety one past Pinedale, you know you would have you

843
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 3: would have driven under some a couple of wildlife overpasses

844
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 3: and over I think five underpasses for for mule deer

845
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 3: and prong horn. Uh. You know, there are some great

846
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:53,239
Speaker 3: underpasses on Highway thirty in in Wyoming in a place

847
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 3: called Nugget Canyon, famous field deer migration corder. So there's

848
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 3: lots of great examples of of you know, of of

849
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 3: animal infrastructure in Wyoming and you know, so much of

850
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:04,919
Speaker 3: that is is because it's a state with a really

851
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:09,680
Speaker 3: powerful hunting culture and politically powerful hunters as well. You know,

852
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 3: one of the great groups who I wrote about in

853
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 3: the book is the the muly Fanatics Foundation, you know,

854
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 3: a mule deer advocacy group, and you know, they were

855
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 3: responsible for the creation of a license plate, you know,

856
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 3: a special license plate, the revenues from which go to

857
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 3: to wildlife crossing infrastructure. So yeah, I do think you know,

858
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 3: that's the that's the reason that you see you know,

859
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 3: people like Ryan Zinky right in that first Trump administration,

860
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 3: you know authoring was it thirty three sixty two? Was

861
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:44,640
Speaker 3: this the secretarial order that required states to identify winter

862
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,840
Speaker 3: range and migration corridors? So yeah, there's this, you know,

863
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:54,400
Speaker 3: this great bipartisan, really nonpartisan relationship there. You know John Barrasso,

864
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 3: Republican senator from Wyoming, you know, he wrote some of

865
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 3: the language that ended up being this big wildlife crossings

866
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 3: grant program. Who's the first to introduce it in a

867
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 3: in a bill? And now that you know that program exists,

868
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 3: So yeah, you know, we live in this hyper polarized

869
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 3: society obviously, and and you know, I think that wildlife

870
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 3: crossings are one of the few issues that you know,

871
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:20,719
Speaker 3: the hunting lobby and the humane society you know, both

872
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 3: vociferously agree upon.

873
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:26,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd love to see it. Yeah, just seek some

874
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 2: kind of common ground. It also seems like it's one

875
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:35,320
Speaker 2: of those interesting sweet spots and that it's it's most

876
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 2: of these migration or connectivity type initiatives, legislation or executive

877
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:46,719
Speaker 2: orders whatnot. They tend to advocate for targeted protections or

878
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 2: targeted crossings, which viewed from one side, are like better

879
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 2: than like a very far reaching, wide ranging set of

880
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:58,919
Speaker 2: protections that you know, some people might be worried about

881
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 2: impeding development. And then from like the other side, the

882
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 2: more protectionist side, which wants to see lots and lots

883
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:07,360
Speaker 2: of protection, this is well, at least we cover the

884
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 2: very most important points right where we're able to find

885
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:13,840
Speaker 2: where these key crossing points are and protect those. So

886
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 2: it's a some people would view it as the minimum

887
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 2: amount they can handle, and some would view it as,

888
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 2: you know, better than nothing, But one way or another,

889
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 2: it is better than nothing. So let's let's let's get

890
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:29,719
Speaker 2: a little more into the crossing side of things. As

891
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 2: you alluded to, like, just right there on one ninety one,

892
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 2: there's several different forms of crossings being utilized by mule

893
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 2: deer and pronghorn. But can you can you talk us

894
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 2: through a little bit of you know, what kinds of

895
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 2: solutions have been found for wildlife crossings and it's it's

896
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 2: kind of pretty wild how many different versions of this

897
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 2: there exist, everything from something that's made to get amphibians

898
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 2: across the road to something that says, you know, a

899
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 2: suitable for a grizzly bear, mountain lion too. So could

900
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,600
Speaker 2: you kind of expand and explore on what all those

901
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:03,279
Speaker 2: things might look like?

902
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, And I think, you know, I think that

903
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:07,759
Speaker 3: whenever you're talking about wildlife crossings, right, it's important to

904
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 3: start with a kind of a fundamental understanding of the

905
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 3: biology and ecology of the animal that you're trying to

906
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 3: get across the highway, right, so that you know, those

907
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:20,200
Speaker 3: those one ninety one crossings by Pinedale at a place

908
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 3: called Trapper's Point, you know, that's a really a really

909
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:25,080
Speaker 3: good example of that because there, you know, you have

910
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 3: this ancient migration route for both mule deer and pronghorn,

911
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:32,279
Speaker 3: and you know, it's it's just kind of cool from

912
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 3: a hunting standpoint. Briefly, to think about how long that

913
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 3: migration route has existed and how long humans have understood

914
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 3: that migration route right there, you know, amazing archaeological finds

915
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 3: of you know, of pronghorn, uh you know that were

916
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:50,280
Speaker 3: that were killed with stone tools, you know, six thousand

917
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 3: years ago in that in that spot, right.

918
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:53,720
Speaker 2: So I just love that idea.

919
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:55,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so, you know, I just love the idea

920
00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 3: of you know, humans and and and angulates kind of

921
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 3: moving through the landscape together there, you know, from this

922
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 3: deep time perspective. So anyway, so you've got these you know,

923
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 3: these two iconic species both hit in the highway, you know,

924
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:11,120
Speaker 3: in the same in the same place. You know, mule

925
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 3: deer are pretty easy animals to get across highways, right

926
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:17,760
Speaker 3: They'll you know, they'll they'll use lots of different crossing types,

927
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 3: you know, lots of data that they're you know, pretty

928
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:23,480
Speaker 3: happy going through uh, you know, concrete box culverts as

929
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:29,120
Speaker 3: long as they're large enough. But pronghorn really don't do that.

930
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:32,719
Speaker 3: You know, prong horn don't like underpasses, and and you know,

931
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 3: to understand what it is, and it's important to think

932
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 3: again about the biology and the ecology of the prong horn. Right.

933
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:41,399
Speaker 3: The prong horn is this incredibly fast animal. Of course,

934
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 3: it's the you know, the fastest terrestrial animal in North America.

935
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:49,320
Speaker 3: It was you know, chased by American cheetahs during the

936
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 3: place to scene. Right. They also have incredible eyesight, uh,

937
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:57,360
Speaker 3: you know, one of the farthest seeing uh mammals on Earth.

938
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 3: And so that's an animal that doesn't want to be

939
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 3: in a little box culver. Right, That's an animal that

940
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:07,920
Speaker 3: evolved to outrun and to detect and outrun its predators

941
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:10,279
Speaker 3: in open space. That's an animal that wants to be

942
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 3: up on the deck of a bridge of an overpass

943
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:15,440
Speaker 3: that it can you know, scan the horizon for threats

944
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:17,799
Speaker 3: and run away if it has to. So they're at

945
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 3: a trapper's point. You know, you've got two types of crossings, right,

946
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:25,879
Speaker 3: You've got those underpasses that the mule deer readily use,

947
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 3: and you've got the overpasses that the prong horn have

948
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:32,160
Speaker 3: a really strong preference for. You know, you see the

949
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:36,799
Speaker 3: same kind of dichotomy or division in in bears. You know,

950
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:40,320
Speaker 3: black bears are you know, historically kind of forest dwellers

951
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:44,479
Speaker 3: who are more comfortable and confined closed spaces, and they're

952
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:48,840
Speaker 3: you know, they'll use underpasses pretty readily, whereas grizzly bears

953
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 3: are you know, these big powerful planes animals. You know

954
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 3: Lewis and Clark famously saw them in North Dakota. Right.

955
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 3: These are prairie critters. They don't want to be in

956
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:00,839
Speaker 3: a little underpass. They want to be again in an

957
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 3: open space, especially those sows with cubs because you know,

958
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:08,120
Speaker 3: sometimes the the bores, the males will kill those cubs

959
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:10,720
Speaker 3: to put the females back into heat. Right, so the

960
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:13,239
Speaker 3: females are looking out for uh, you know, for for

961
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:15,759
Speaker 3: males to protect their cubs from them. So you know,

962
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:18,240
Speaker 3: so so grizzly bears, you know, have a strong preference

963
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:21,120
Speaker 3: for overpasses, whereas black bears will happily use underpasses. Right.

964
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:24,040
Speaker 3: So you know, whatever crossing you're creating, you know, you

965
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 3: have to begin with that understanding of you know, what

966
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:31,400
Speaker 3: your target species is, what what sorts of of crossings,

967
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:34,680
Speaker 3: what kinds of structures will appeal to those animals, And

968
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:38,319
Speaker 3: also you know where those animals are moving through the landscape, right,

969
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:41,839
Speaker 3: And that's where the satellite collar data being collected by

970
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:44,919
Speaker 3: groups like the Wyoming Migration Initiative can really help because

971
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:48,360
Speaker 3: you know, they tell you that that data tells you, Okay,

972
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 3: here's where the animals are approaching the highway and would

973
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:55,760
Speaker 3: use a wildlife crossing if the opportunity presented itself.

974
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:11,279
Speaker 2: Now, a lot of the examples discussed when it comes

975
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:15,879
Speaker 2: to wildlife crossings come from the west or the north. Right.

976
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 2: They talk about the parks up in Canada, they talk about,

977
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 2: you know, they're west of West of Glacier National Park.

978
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 2: They talk about, you know, the things there in Wyoming.

979
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:30,200
Speaker 2: There's the more recent example down there with the mountain

980
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 2: lions in southern California. But is any of this happening

981
00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 2: on the east side of the country. Are there wildlife

982
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:40,400
Speaker 2: crossings unbeknownst to those of us in the Midwest or

983
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:43,320
Speaker 2: the East coast where critters of some type are getting

984
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:46,200
Speaker 2: across the road in ways that maybe we're just not

985
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:49,239
Speaker 2: noticing because because I'm not seeing big sexy overpasses in

986
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 2: Michigan or New York or North Carolina. But is there

987
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:54,319
Speaker 2: something happening there as well?

988
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a really important question. I think that you're

989
00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:01,120
Speaker 3: you're right that historically, you know, West Stern states really

990
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:03,440
Speaker 3: the leaders on this stuff, right, And again, I mean

991
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:06,680
Speaker 3: that's just because that's just because of the migratory nature

992
00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:08,799
Speaker 3: of the wildlife. Right. If you have a herd of

993
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:12,320
Speaker 3: a thousand mule deer crossing the same highway in Wyoming

994
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:14,879
Speaker 3: year after year, you know, pretty soon there's this big

995
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:17,799
Speaker 3: pile of carcasses saying, hey, put a wildlife crossing right here,

996
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:20,799
Speaker 3: right where Whereas you know, in the Midwest and the Northeast,

997
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 3: you know, those those white tails aren't really migrating in

998
00:54:23,719 --> 00:54:25,719
Speaker 3: the same way, and it just kind of feels like

999
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:29,760
Speaker 3: they're everywhere all the time, right. There aren't hot spots

1000
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:31,840
Speaker 3: in the same way. And so I think that you know,

1001
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:36,279
Speaker 3: historically Eastern states have kind of thrown their hands up

1002
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:38,120
Speaker 3: and said, yeah, you know, there's really nothing we can

1003
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 3: do about this.

1004
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:39,319
Speaker 2: Uh.

1005
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:42,320
Speaker 3: You know, wildlife crossings are great for those those western guys,

1006
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 3: but they don't make sense for you know, for our

1007
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 3: our ungulits here. And you know, fortunately that mindset is changing.

1008
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:51,799
Speaker 3: You're right that you don't really see you know, big

1009
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:55,600
Speaker 3: sexy overpasses yet in those those Eastern states, but you

1010
00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:58,799
Speaker 3: know you do see underpasses. You know, Florida has built

1011
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:02,400
Speaker 3: lots of underpasses for Florida panthers that that you you mentioned.

1012
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:05,600
Speaker 3: You know, A great example, uh, that I talk about

1013
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 3: in the book comes out of out of Virginia on

1014
00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:13,279
Speaker 3: I sixty four where basically, you know that that identified

1015
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:15,879
Speaker 3: this you know, this frequent uh you know, white tail

1016
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:19,480
Speaker 3: deer collision hotspot. But in that in that stretch of

1017
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:22,120
Speaker 3: highway and I sixty four, there were a couple of culverts.

1018
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 2: Uh.

1019
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:25,279
Speaker 3: You know, these these kind of concrete sided, you know,

1020
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:29,360
Speaker 3: dirt floored underpasses that beneath the highway, and those you know,

1021
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 3: those weren't built for wildlife, right, you know, I think

1022
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:36,640
Speaker 3: one was built for a seasonal stream to flow under

1023
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:39,480
Speaker 3: the highway. One was built for a dairy farmer I believe,

1024
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:41,719
Speaker 3: who wanted to you know, run his cows back and

1025
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:46,360
Speaker 3: forth under under the interstate. So those weren't wildlife crossings

1026
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:49,080
Speaker 3: per se. But you know what some some folks at

1027
00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 3: the Virginia Department of Transportation realized is that, hey, if

1028
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:56,520
Speaker 3: we just built fences on either side of the underpass

1029
00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:59,680
Speaker 3: of these culverts, we could make deer and other animals

1030
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:02,040
Speaker 3: used them. Right, Deer'd be trying to cross the highway

1031
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:05,000
Speaker 3: they'd hit that fence line, they'd follow the fence line,

1032
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:08,640
Speaker 3: and they'd find that that culvert and they'd go underneath it.

1033
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:11,600
Speaker 3: And sure enough, you know, that was exactly what happened.

1034
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:13,799
Speaker 3: You know, So they managed to reduce collisions by more

1035
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:16,840
Speaker 3: than ninety percent, and they you know saw I mean hundreds,

1036
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:19,960
Speaker 3: if not thousands, of deer and black bears and foxes

1037
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:22,560
Speaker 3: and the possums and all kinds of critters going back

1038
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:25,359
Speaker 3: and forth under that highway. And you know, I think

1039
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 3: really importantly for the Transportation Department, that project paid for

1040
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:33,360
Speaker 3: itself really quickly. Right because we're talking earlier about how

1041
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:36,440
Speaker 3: expensive and dangerous all of these animal crashes are. Well,

1042
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:39,839
Speaker 3: if you put some fencing in that reduces crashes by

1043
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 3: more than ninety percent, you know, you can recoup your

1044
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:44,919
Speaker 3: own costs really quickly, which is you know, we see

1045
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:48,480
Speaker 3: frequently with wildlife crossing. So I think that example and

1046
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:52,320
Speaker 3: a couple of others have helped other Eastern states say,

1047
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:55,040
Speaker 3: you know, wait a second, wildlife crossings are not just

1048
00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:57,759
Speaker 3: for Wyoming, in Utah and Montana, you know, we can

1049
00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 3: build them here. And so if you look at you know,

1050
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:03,239
Speaker 3: the Byparts of Infrastructure law which had three hundred and

1051
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:07,319
Speaker 3: fifty million dollars for wildlife crossings in the form of

1052
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:11,120
Speaker 3: competitive grants going to states and native tribes and other entities.

1053
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:12,919
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, a lot of that money has gone

1054
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:15,440
Speaker 3: to Wyoming in Colorado and Utah, but you know a

1055
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:20,200
Speaker 3: lot of it's also gone to Vermont and Maine and Massachusetts,

1056
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:22,640
Speaker 3: which you know, got funding to you know, build a

1057
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:26,479
Speaker 3: crossing and overpass over the mass Pike, which was pretty cool.

1058
00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:30,040
Speaker 3: And you know, we're seeing Eastern states and Midwestern states

1059
00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:34,080
Speaker 3: like South Dakota and Missouri and Pennsylvania, you know, getting

1060
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:38,840
Speaker 3: money to begin the planning process for wildlife crossings. Right

1061
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:40,560
Speaker 3: here in the West, you know, we've got lots of

1062
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:43,440
Speaker 3: shovel ready projects. You know, we have all this data.

1063
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:46,440
Speaker 3: We know where the migration corridors are, where the collision

1064
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:49,360
Speaker 3: hot spots are. We're you know, ready to build you know,

1065
00:57:49,560 --> 00:57:52,760
Speaker 3: fifteen million dollar overpasses today, whereas a lot of the

1066
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:55,280
Speaker 3: Eastern states are you know, a few years behind. And

1067
00:57:55,280 --> 00:57:57,640
Speaker 3: they're saying, Okay, now we have a desire to do this.

1068
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:01,200
Speaker 3: We want to build wildlife crossings and let's figure out

1069
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:04,360
Speaker 3: where to where to put them, because you know there

1070
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:06,840
Speaker 3: are it turns out that there are hot spots out there.

1071
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:09,120
Speaker 3: It's not just you know, a white tail free for all.

1072
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:13,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, So so zooming out a little bit more. If

1073
00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:18,320
Speaker 2: crossings get an animal across one road from habitat A

1074
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:20,800
Speaker 2: to habitat B, you might be able to zoom a

1075
00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:22,680
Speaker 2: little bit further out and look at something that a

1076
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 2: lot of folks referred to as corridors, which would be

1077
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:29,840
Speaker 2: these larger protected zones to some degree that connect habitat

1078
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:33,360
Speaker 2: to habitat to habitat, allowing you know, wildlife species to

1079
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:35,920
Speaker 2: do something like we talked about earlier, which might be

1080
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 2: connect one genetic subpopulation to another, or to be able

1081
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:43,200
Speaker 2: to migrate, or to be able to adjust to a

1082
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 2: changing climate or adjust to new development pressures. And there

1083
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:50,960
Speaker 2: have been discussions around these in different parts of the country,

1084
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:54,600
Speaker 2: Like there is a corridor type project in Florida where

1085
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 2: they are trying to connect habitat from the southern tip

1086
00:58:57,240 --> 00:59:00,160
Speaker 2: of the state towards more towards the Panhandle, try to

1087
00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:04,280
Speaker 2: protect places along that route along with crossings. And then

1088
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:07,760
Speaker 2: there's you know, some big, more well known ones out west.

1089
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:10,120
Speaker 2: You talked about this a little bit in the book

1090
00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:13,040
Speaker 2: You You you led towards the beginning with with how

1091
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:16,400
Speaker 2: the Yellowstone to Yukon Corridor kind of opened your eyes

1092
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:19,040
Speaker 2: to this whole idea of crossings. Can you can you

1093
00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:21,920
Speaker 2: elaborate a little bit on this idea of corridors, the

1094
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:25,760
Speaker 2: importance of it today and and maybe speak a little

1095
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:27,560
Speaker 2: bit about why do I since that one is so

1096
00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:30,080
Speaker 2: well known and compelling.

1097
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:31,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, and you know that, I mean that

1098
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:34,600
Speaker 3: was really the project that got me excited about this topic,

1099
00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:38,400
Speaker 3: you know, twelve twelve years ago now, So yeah, I

1100
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:40,439
Speaker 3: think it's I think it's important to remember, of course,

1101
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:43,800
Speaker 3: that roads don't occur in isolation, right, as you say,

1102
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:48,000
Speaker 3: as you allude to, they're part of this much larger landscape.

1103
00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:51,600
Speaker 3: And you know, you have to think about habitat protection

1104
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:55,240
Speaker 3: and wildlife crossings going hand in hand, right And then

1105
00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:57,120
Speaker 3: you know, I know, I know you're a big public

1106
00:59:57,200 --> 01:00:00,560
Speaker 3: lands guide mark which I really appreciate. You have to

1107
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:03,720
Speaker 3: have public lands or some other form of protected habitat

1108
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:05,320
Speaker 3: on either side of the road, right if you know,

1109
01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:07,840
Speaker 3: if you and look, we see that you know here

1110
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:09,880
Speaker 3: in the west all the time where you know, if

1111
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:12,920
Speaker 3: you have a wildlife crossing and you can you can

1112
01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:17,920
Speaker 3: build a great overpass over a highway. But you know,

1113
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 3: if the if the open space on either side of

1114
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:23,600
Speaker 3: that overpass gets turned into condos tomorrow, you know you've

1115
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:25,440
Speaker 3: got to You've got a bridge to nowhere, right, And

1116
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:28,600
Speaker 3: so you know, conservation easements and other forms of land

1117
01:00:28,640 --> 01:00:31,680
Speaker 3: protection have to go hand in hand with the construction

1118
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:34,840
Speaker 3: of those those wildlife passages, and so that's we start

1119
01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:39,240
Speaker 3: talking about, right, those larger corridors, uh, you know, those

1120
01:00:39,280 --> 01:00:42,800
Speaker 3: those larger connected and protected spaces. And you know that

1121
01:00:42,840 --> 01:00:46,000
Speaker 3: doesn't necessarily mean uh, you know, public land. It could

1122
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:48,320
Speaker 3: mean you know, a big ranch with the conservation easeman

1123
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:50,200
Speaker 3: on it, right that you know that that prevents that

1124
01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:53,400
Speaker 3: open space, uh, you know from turning into uh you know,

1125
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:54,840
Speaker 3: into into subdivisions.

1126
01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:55,320
Speaker 2: Uh.

1127
01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:57,120
Speaker 3: You know, in many places it means fencer.

1128
01:00:57,520 --> 01:00:57,640
Speaker 1: Right.

1129
01:00:57,680 --> 01:01:00,520
Speaker 3: You talked about those you know, those prong horner earlier,

1130
01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:02,720
Speaker 3: which are a great example of a species that has

1131
01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:05,720
Speaker 3: a really hard time crossing fences. You know, they don't

1132
01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:08,880
Speaker 3: jump as well as elk and deer do, and so

1133
01:01:08,920 --> 01:01:10,680
Speaker 3: they you know, they really get hung up by those

1134
01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:12,480
Speaker 3: those those fences. And so you know, if you have

1135
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:16,680
Speaker 3: a wildlife overpass, but you know, a whole crapload of

1136
01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:19,439
Speaker 3: barbed wire on either side. You know, that's that's gonna

1137
01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:23,440
Speaker 3: be a bit a big problem for for proborn you know.

1138
01:01:23,720 --> 01:01:26,200
Speaker 3: The I mean another another big piece of all of this,

1139
01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:29,360
Speaker 3: especially when you're talking about you know about large carnivores,

1140
01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:33,320
Speaker 3: is conflict mitigation, right, Uh, you know, figuring out uh

1141
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:36,120
Speaker 3: you know, how to protect livestock and you know, other

1142
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:39,760
Speaker 3: forms of agriculture from you know, from wolves and bears

1143
01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:43,320
Speaker 3: and cougars and coyotes. Right, I mean again, same same principle.

1144
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:47,520
Speaker 3: You know, a grizzly bear can cross an overpass over

1145
01:01:47,560 --> 01:01:49,400
Speaker 3: the highway, but you know if if on the other

1146
01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:51,920
Speaker 3: side he you know, ends up killing a few sheep

1147
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:54,439
Speaker 3: and getting shot for it. Uh, you know, you haven't

1148
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:58,760
Speaker 3: really achieved connectivity. Right. So you know, these broader corridors

1149
01:01:58,840 --> 01:02:02,200
Speaker 3: like the Yellowstone to uk On Conservation initiative, you know

1150
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:05,480
Speaker 3: they should they take this really holistic perspective on all

1151
01:02:05,520 --> 01:02:09,000
Speaker 3: of the different barriers to to movement that are out

1152
01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:12,120
Speaker 3: there on the landscape. So you know, wildlife crossings are

1153
01:02:12,520 --> 01:02:14,520
Speaker 3: part of the story, but you know, certainly not the

1154
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:17,600
Speaker 3: entire story. And you know why do why is a

1155
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:20,320
Speaker 3: great example of that, because they do take that bigger,

1156
01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:23,600
Speaker 3: you know, synergistic vision. I mean really their goal, uh,

1157
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:27,560
Speaker 3: you know, is to create ideally a connected wildlife corridor

1158
01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:31,080
Speaker 3: that runs from the Yukon all the way to Yellowstone

1159
01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:34,200
Speaker 3: National Park, so that you know, really far ranging animals

1160
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:39,040
Speaker 3: like brislies and wolverines and wolves and cariboo you know,

1161
01:02:39,120 --> 01:02:42,560
Speaker 3: can can move through this connected landscape. And again, you

1162
01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:46,160
Speaker 3: know that doesn't certainly those big protected areas, those big

1163
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:50,000
Speaker 3: blocks of public land like Glacier National Park, like Banff

1164
01:02:50,040 --> 01:02:53,400
Speaker 3: and Jasper in Canada. You know, that's that's part of

1165
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:56,840
Speaker 3: the story. But you know that corridor also goes through yeah,

1166
01:02:56,960 --> 01:03:00,400
Speaker 3: ranches and farms and you know, and and industrial timber

1167
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:03,320
Speaker 3: lands and all sorts of you know of quote unquote

1168
01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:07,960
Speaker 3: working lands, and you know, conflict mitigation in those spaces

1169
01:03:08,080 --> 01:03:10,600
Speaker 3: is part of it too. So again, just thinking about

1170
01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:13,560
Speaker 3: all of those different barriers on the landscape and how

1171
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:16,840
Speaker 3: we can address them synergistically, I think is really where

1172
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:18,400
Speaker 3: this corridor movement is gone.

1173
01:03:21,160 --> 01:03:26,520
Speaker 2: So I'm curious, Ben, as you have well, let me

1174
01:03:26,560 --> 01:03:29,400
Speaker 2: take let me take some different approach. As I have

1175
01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:34,120
Speaker 2: learned more and more about the various topics that are

1176
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:38,320
Speaker 2: related to conservation and public lands, and the future of wildlife.

1177
01:03:38,360 --> 01:03:41,800
Speaker 2: As I've worked on various projects on my own, I

1178
01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:48,680
Speaker 2: find myself having two parallel energy kind of sources, or

1179
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:50,440
Speaker 2: maybe you can think about like a devil on one

1180
01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:53,080
Speaker 2: side and an angel on the other shoulder. And the

1181
01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:56,240
Speaker 2: more I learn, I will have this devil on one

1182
01:03:56,240 --> 01:04:00,240
Speaker 2: shoulder that's saying, look at how screwed everything is, look

1183
01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:02,080
Speaker 2: at all the bad stuff that's happening, and look at

1184
01:04:02,080 --> 01:04:05,800
Speaker 2: all these depressing statistics and all of this bad news

1185
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:10,480
Speaker 2: and dire straits for this critter or this place. And

1186
01:04:10,520 --> 01:04:12,760
Speaker 2: then on the other hand, on the other shoulder, the

1187
01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:15,960
Speaker 2: more I learned, the more I also find out about

1188
01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:22,360
Speaker 2: or hear from, you know, encouraging examples of good people

1189
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:26,360
Speaker 2: doing great work helping out in specific locations, or discovering

1190
01:04:26,400 --> 01:04:31,200
Speaker 2: new ideas, or you know, banding together and achieving important

1191
01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:34,920
Speaker 2: progress and protecting wildlife or installing some kind of new

1192
01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:39,120
Speaker 2: conservation practice or whatever it might be. So I'm constantly

1193
01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:41,680
Speaker 2: kind of oscillating between those two things. The deeper and

1194
01:04:41,720 --> 01:04:44,680
Speaker 2: deeper I get into all this. So my question for

1195
01:04:44,760 --> 01:04:47,840
Speaker 2: you is, as you worked on this project Crossings, as

1196
01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:51,480
Speaker 2: you dove into the world of rhode ecology and wildlife

1197
01:04:51,560 --> 01:04:56,440
Speaker 2: corridors and crossings. Where do you stand today on those

1198
01:04:56,520 --> 01:04:59,680
Speaker 2: parallel tracks of good energy and bad energy? The devil

1199
01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:02,400
Speaker 2: in the aim, angel on the shoulder? Are you are

1200
01:05:02,440 --> 01:05:07,800
Speaker 2: you hopeful? Are you disheartened? What's your view for the future?

1201
01:05:08,320 --> 01:05:12,320
Speaker 3: Dude? Did you just described exactly my internal conflict? The

1202
01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:16,760
Speaker 3: the oscillation, the oscillation between hope and despair is it's

1203
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:18,360
Speaker 3: so it's so real. And I think that, you know,

1204
01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:23,200
Speaker 3: like any thinking, feeling, ecologically minded person can probably relate

1205
01:05:23,240 --> 01:05:24,800
Speaker 3: to that. I mean, on one hand, out you know,

1206
01:05:24,840 --> 01:05:26,920
Speaker 3: I do feel a lot of hope. As we were

1207
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:30,240
Speaker 3: saying earlier, you know this this is truly a bipartisan issue,

1208
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:33,360
Speaker 3: the need for you know, wildlife crossings and poor doors.

1209
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:36,640
Speaker 3: And there are I mean so many fantastic projects uh

1210
01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:38,360
Speaker 3: springing up all over the place. You know, I mentioned

1211
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:41,480
Speaker 3: those mountain lions in California earlier as kind of the

1212
01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:45,640
Speaker 3: poster population for the genetic fragmentation that res can create. Well,

1213
01:05:45,640 --> 01:05:48,880
Speaker 3: guess what, there's uh you know, the largest wildlife overpass

1214
01:05:49,280 --> 01:05:51,960
Speaker 3: uh in in the US is being built right now

1215
01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:54,200
Speaker 3: that will cross the one oh one and you know,

1216
01:05:54,280 --> 01:05:56,800
Speaker 3: let those those cats move back and forth and not

1217
01:05:56,880 --> 01:05:59,800
Speaker 3: just not just mountain lions, but also mule deer and

1218
01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:02,960
Speaker 3: and bobcats and coyotes and all kinds of creators. So

1219
01:06:03,160 --> 01:06:05,919
Speaker 3: you know, there are projects like that provide me uh

1220
01:06:06,160 --> 01:06:08,120
Speaker 3: lots of lots of hope and are you know, are

1221
01:06:08,120 --> 01:06:10,560
Speaker 3: really sustaining. But you know, then of course we we

1222
01:06:10,680 --> 01:06:12,440
Speaker 3: know as you know, as you know all too well,

1223
01:06:12,480 --> 01:06:14,680
Speaker 3: and are writing writing a book about you know, we're

1224
01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:17,720
Speaker 3: in the middle of this uh six mass extinction event

1225
01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:20,320
Speaker 3: and our our planet's history, and not just extinction, but

1226
01:06:20,400 --> 01:06:23,520
Speaker 3: also you know, common animals or once common animals like

1227
01:06:23,640 --> 01:06:26,760
Speaker 3: mule deer becoming uh you know, increasingly scarce. You know,

1228
01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:29,560
Speaker 3: prong horn another another great, great example of you know this,

1229
01:06:29,680 --> 01:06:33,080
Speaker 3: animals just you know, sort of like terminally afflicted by

1230
01:06:33,160 --> 01:06:36,600
Speaker 3: fragmentation all all across the the American West, right, and

1231
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:40,040
Speaker 3: and you know, it's it's hard to feel like the

1232
01:06:40,280 --> 01:06:42,840
Speaker 3: you know this, the solutions such as they are, are

1233
01:06:42,960 --> 01:06:45,320
Speaker 3: keeping up with the pace of those declines, right, they're

1234
01:06:45,360 --> 01:06:48,000
Speaker 3: not really And you know, and now, uh, you know,

1235
01:06:48,080 --> 01:06:50,880
Speaker 3: unfortunately we're entering this you know, this political period that

1236
01:06:50,920 --> 01:06:53,000
Speaker 3: I think is going to be really hostile to conservation.

1237
01:06:53,080 --> 01:06:54,800
Speaker 3: And I mean I don't think that we can you know,

1238
01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:57,440
Speaker 3: we we know that from you know, what this administration

1239
01:06:57,520 --> 01:06:59,280
Speaker 3: is all already doing. And you know, I'm sure you've

1240
01:06:59,280 --> 01:07:02,360
Speaker 3: got listeners you know, on all sides of the political spectrum.

1241
01:07:02,360 --> 01:07:04,440
Speaker 3: But you know, but I you know, I look at

1242
01:07:04,840 --> 01:07:09,000
Speaker 3: you know, this administration's desire to sell off public land

1243
01:07:09,080 --> 01:07:12,640
Speaker 3: and and you know, and and develop you know, housing

1244
01:07:12,680 --> 01:07:15,080
Speaker 3: on a lot of it, and and uh, you know,

1245
01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:18,320
Speaker 3: roll back so many of the protections under the Endangered

1246
01:07:18,320 --> 01:07:21,720
Speaker 3: Species Act. And it's you know, it's it's whatever, whatever

1247
01:07:21,800 --> 01:07:24,760
Speaker 3: you think about you know about about the Trump administration,

1248
01:07:24,840 --> 01:07:26,960
Speaker 3: it's hard to imagine a world in which it's going

1249
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:28,360
Speaker 3: to be positive for wildlife.

1250
01:07:28,400 --> 01:07:28,560
Speaker 2: Right.

1251
01:07:28,640 --> 01:07:32,360
Speaker 3: So, yes, there are these these points of of of

1252
01:07:32,480 --> 01:07:37,320
Speaker 3: political consensus and bipartisanship in the world of of of

1253
01:07:37,640 --> 01:07:41,480
Speaker 3: wildlife crossings and habitat corridors, but you know, ultimately it's

1254
01:07:41,520 --> 01:07:43,120
Speaker 3: it's hard to look at the next few years and

1255
01:07:43,400 --> 01:07:47,600
Speaker 3: feel really optimistic about where we're going from a conservation standpoint.

1256
01:07:49,640 --> 01:07:55,000
Speaker 2: So all that said, what do we do what what

1257
01:07:55,000 --> 01:07:57,480
Speaker 2: What kinds of things did you find coming out of

1258
01:07:57,560 --> 01:08:00,800
Speaker 2: this project that you felt that you could take as

1259
01:08:00,800 --> 01:08:04,960
Speaker 2: an individual to make any kind of positive progress? What

1260
01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:06,960
Speaker 2: can we as listeners do if if any of this

1261
01:08:07,120 --> 01:08:09,560
Speaker 2: intrigued usin we thought to ourselves, Man, I would love

1262
01:08:09,640 --> 01:08:11,880
Speaker 2: to somehow support this kind of work getting done, more

1263
01:08:11,920 --> 01:08:15,880
Speaker 2: crossings being created, more corridors being protected with the ease

1264
01:08:15,960 --> 01:08:21,160
Speaker 2: mints or or whatever other tool. What's your take on

1265
01:08:21,240 --> 01:08:23,479
Speaker 2: what individuals can do to to be a part of

1266
01:08:23,520 --> 01:08:24,200
Speaker 2: these solutions.

1267
01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:26,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think I think this is one

1268
01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:31,839
Speaker 3: of those great issues where doing the classic good citizen

1269
01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:35,799
Speaker 3: of a democracy thing, you know, writing to your elected officials,

1270
01:08:35,880 --> 01:08:41,400
Speaker 3: your representatives, you know, supporting groups that support this stuff,

1271
01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:43,479
Speaker 3: you know groups, I mean, and that's one of the

1272
01:08:43,520 --> 01:08:45,080
Speaker 3: great things about and one of the reasons I was,

1273
01:08:45,120 --> 01:08:48,000
Speaker 3: you know, really excited to uh, you know, to talk

1274
01:08:48,040 --> 01:08:50,280
Speaker 3: to a kind of a you know, a hunting audience.

1275
01:08:50,360 --> 01:08:51,880
Speaker 3: Is that. I mean again, hunters have just been a

1276
01:08:51,920 --> 01:08:55,720
Speaker 3: fantastic community for this, for this issue, right and you

1277
01:08:55,800 --> 01:08:58,080
Speaker 3: know I mentioned I mentioned Wyoming, but also groups like

1278
01:08:58,280 --> 01:09:00,360
Speaker 3: you know, back country hunters and anglers. You know, it's

1279
01:09:00,400 --> 01:09:03,400
Speaker 3: creating this issue, you know, the National Wildlife Federation, uh

1280
01:09:03,439 --> 01:09:06,520
Speaker 3: and so on. You know, there are so many organizations

1281
01:09:06,560 --> 01:09:09,759
Speaker 3: now you know that that work on this stuff. And

1282
01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:14,320
Speaker 3: and you know, again because this is relatively it's relatively nonpartisan.

1283
01:09:14,360 --> 01:09:17,280
Speaker 3: And it's also it's a thing that politicians and transportation

1284
01:09:17,400 --> 01:09:20,200
Speaker 3: agencies like doing. Right. There's like, you know, you build

1285
01:09:20,200 --> 01:09:23,040
Speaker 3: a wildlife crossing and there's a ribbon cut. You know,

1286
01:09:23,080 --> 01:09:26,640
Speaker 3: it's a fun media friendly that you know, transportation agencies

1287
01:09:26,680 --> 01:09:30,040
Speaker 3: can you know, get fantastic you know, trailcan footage of

1288
01:09:30,479 --> 01:09:33,360
Speaker 3: animals using their new wildlife crossings and you know, have

1289
01:09:33,439 --> 01:09:36,320
Speaker 3: a go viral on social media, right and to about

1290
01:09:36,360 --> 01:09:38,600
Speaker 3: you know, I feel kind of cynical about about you know,

1291
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:42,080
Speaker 3: those transportation agencies at times. Right, that's it's like, okay,

1292
01:09:42,080 --> 01:09:44,559
Speaker 3: you're you know, you love talking about the wildlife crossings

1293
01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:46,680
Speaker 3: you've built, but not about all of the ones you

1294
01:09:46,720 --> 01:09:50,280
Speaker 3: should have built. But you know, but but it is

1295
01:09:50,360 --> 01:09:51,720
Speaker 3: it is true that you know that this is this

1296
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:55,400
Speaker 3: is one of those you know, multi win issues that uh,

1297
01:09:55,520 --> 01:09:58,720
Speaker 3: you know that agencies and politicians want to be part of.

1298
01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:03,040
Speaker 3: And so you know, writing and calling your your legislators,

1299
01:10:03,600 --> 01:10:06,280
Speaker 3: you know, really does make a difference. And again, supporting

1300
01:10:06,320 --> 01:10:08,880
Speaker 3: those groups that are working on this issue at a

1301
01:10:08,920 --> 01:10:13,160
Speaker 3: state or federal policy level is also a big win too,

1302
01:10:13,200 --> 01:10:15,760
Speaker 3: because you know, we do see lots of states, uh,

1303
01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:19,080
Speaker 3: you know, states like uh, you know, Utah and Oregon

1304
01:10:19,160 --> 01:10:21,760
Speaker 3: and New Mexico, you know, states on every side of

1305
01:10:21,800 --> 01:10:25,719
Speaker 3: the political spectrum, right, passing bills that allocate new funding

1306
01:10:25,760 --> 01:10:28,880
Speaker 3: towards the construction of wildlife crossing and crossings and the

1307
01:10:28,880 --> 01:10:32,280
Speaker 3: conservation of corridors, so you know, and those those states

1308
01:10:32,280 --> 01:10:35,320
Speaker 3: were all influenced, you know by groups like the newly

1309
01:10:35,400 --> 01:10:39,800
Speaker 3: Fanatics Foundation, right, you know, hunting groups and other other stakeholders.

1310
01:10:39,800 --> 01:10:41,680
Speaker 3: So yeah, do you know, just do the do the

1311
01:10:41,720 --> 01:10:43,320
Speaker 3: good citizen of a democracy thing?

1312
01:10:44,680 --> 01:10:49,360
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, it's one of those things that never gets old.

1313
01:10:49,600 --> 01:10:51,000
Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's it's going to be one of

1314
01:10:51,040 --> 01:10:52,760
Speaker 2: those deals. You hear about it, but you just have

1315
01:10:52,800 --> 01:10:54,599
Speaker 2: to keep on working on You just have to keep

1316
01:10:54,640 --> 01:10:58,599
Speaker 2: pushing that, uh sisspician, boulder up the mountain and keep

1317
01:10:58,600 --> 01:11:01,520
Speaker 2: on keep on making the phone and send the emails

1318
01:11:02,040 --> 01:11:05,400
Speaker 2: and uh and slowly but surely that stuff builds up

1319
01:11:05,560 --> 01:11:09,559
Speaker 2: into into something that decision makers can't ignore.

1320
01:11:09,760 --> 01:11:12,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's the that's the hope for sure.

1321
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:16,680
Speaker 2: What Uh, I guess two things here to wrap things up.

1322
01:11:17,040 --> 01:11:21,400
Speaker 2: Number one, can you preview for us anything coming in

1323
01:11:21,479 --> 01:11:23,680
Speaker 2: the future, any fun new projects, anything we can look

1324
01:11:23,720 --> 01:11:28,360
Speaker 2: forward to? And then uh, well I'll guess answer me

1325
01:11:28,439 --> 01:11:29,800
Speaker 2: that is there anything you can tell us about the

1326
01:11:29,800 --> 01:11:31,160
Speaker 2: future yet or is that still hush hush?

1327
01:11:31,280 --> 01:11:33,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, for sure. I'm writing a book right now

1328
01:11:33,160 --> 01:11:37,080
Speaker 3: about about phish movement, kind of the aquatic counterpart to

1329
01:11:37,080 --> 01:11:40,559
Speaker 3: to crossings. In some ways, fish movement as this kind

1330
01:11:40,560 --> 01:11:44,960
Speaker 3: of keystone ecological and cultural force that you know, like

1331
01:11:45,760 --> 01:11:48,679
Speaker 3: with ungulate migration, we've screwed up in a million ways

1332
01:11:48,680 --> 01:11:53,960
Speaker 3: and are now called upon to protect and restore and understand. So,

1333
01:11:54,160 --> 01:11:57,360
Speaker 3: you know, projects like the famous Climateth dam removal, Uh,

1334
01:11:57,520 --> 01:11:59,200
Speaker 3: you know, where four damns are just taken out to

1335
01:11:59,640 --> 01:12:03,519
Speaker 3: you know, emit salmon salmon migration into four hundred miles

1336
01:12:03,560 --> 01:12:07,920
Speaker 3: of newly open river habitat. Projects like that are gonna

1337
01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:10,880
Speaker 3: going to feature prominently in this book. But it's also

1338
01:12:10,920 --> 01:12:14,920
Speaker 3: mostly an excuse to go fishing and and see fish

1339
01:12:14,960 --> 01:12:17,400
Speaker 3: and lots of cool places. So it's it's my it's

1340
01:12:17,439 --> 01:12:19,080
Speaker 3: my finly veiled angling.

1341
01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:23,640
Speaker 2: Project, smart man. As I as I mentioned before we

1342
01:12:23,680 --> 01:12:27,599
Speaker 2: started recording, the last portion of my book that I'm

1343
01:12:27,640 --> 01:12:30,920
Speaker 2: wrapping up now is about salmon and uh. And so

1344
01:12:30,960 --> 01:12:33,439
Speaker 2: I've spent a lot of time over over recent months

1345
01:12:33,920 --> 01:12:37,519
Speaker 2: reading about uh, you know, Columbia River Basin and Snake

1346
01:12:37,640 --> 01:12:39,760
Speaker 2: River Salmon and all that. And then last year I

1347
01:12:39,760 --> 01:12:41,640
Speaker 2: got to go up to Alaska and spend time in

1348
01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:44,519
Speaker 2: the Tongus where there's also to talk about culvert issues there,

1349
01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:48,040
Speaker 2: and then of course getting to go to a place

1350
01:12:48,080 --> 01:12:51,120
Speaker 2: that doesn't have these connectivity issues yet like Bristol Bay.

1351
01:12:52,160 --> 01:12:54,280
Speaker 2: So yeah, you're gonna have a lot of fun with

1352
01:12:54,320 --> 01:12:56,160
Speaker 2: that project. I can't wait to uh, I can't wait

1353
01:12:56,160 --> 01:12:59,240
Speaker 2: to read that one. Yeah, but we've got to wait

1354
01:12:59,280 --> 01:13:01,120
Speaker 2: a while for that one. But there are two books.

1355
01:13:01,120 --> 01:13:03,880
Speaker 2: People can rate it right now? Where would you like

1356
01:13:03,960 --> 01:13:05,960
Speaker 2: to send folks to pick up a copy of any

1357
01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:06,880
Speaker 2: of your previous books?

1358
01:13:07,200 --> 01:13:09,599
Speaker 3: You know, I always love when people support their local

1359
01:13:09,720 --> 01:13:13,280
Speaker 3: independent bookseller, So you know, see if they if they

1360
01:13:13,280 --> 01:13:15,760
Speaker 3: have crossings, your eager instack there and if not, order

1361
01:13:15,800 --> 01:13:18,280
Speaker 3: them through through your your local indie. But you know,

1362
01:13:18,520 --> 01:13:22,719
Speaker 3: if not there, they're available and every online retailer where

1363
01:13:22,840 --> 01:13:25,280
Speaker 3: books are sold. So yeah, thank you, thank you in

1364
01:13:25,280 --> 01:13:27,760
Speaker 3: advance to all you out there for supporting I really

1365
01:13:27,800 --> 01:13:28,439
Speaker 3: appreciate it.

1366
01:13:29,360 --> 01:13:32,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, and do you do you like people to connect

1367
01:13:32,280 --> 01:13:35,000
Speaker 2: with you on social media or a website or anything

1368
01:13:35,040 --> 01:13:35,400
Speaker 2: else like that?

1369
01:13:35,520 --> 01:13:38,200
Speaker 3: Yeah? Sure, but my website is just ben gooldfarb dot

1370
01:13:38,240 --> 01:13:41,160
Speaker 3: com and I'm you know, active on on Instagram and

1371
01:13:42,000 --> 01:13:44,479
Speaker 3: Twitter and increasingly Blue Sky and all the all the

1372
01:13:44,520 --> 01:13:48,719
Speaker 3: other places where writers are now obligated to have social

1373
01:13:48,720 --> 01:13:50,360
Speaker 3: media presences.

1374
01:13:50,920 --> 01:13:54,759
Speaker 2: Awesome, all right, Ben, Well, I will be impatiently waiting

1375
01:13:54,880 --> 01:13:57,599
Speaker 2: for the third book. Can't wait for that. And in

1376
01:13:57,640 --> 01:14:00,200
Speaker 2: the meantime, I will just send you my thanks one

1377
01:14:00,200 --> 01:14:02,000
Speaker 2: more time for doing some really important work.

1378
01:14:02,080 --> 01:14:03,680
Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you Mark, thanks for having me, and

1379
01:14:03,880 --> 01:14:06,080
Speaker 3: congrats on your own next book. I'm really stop to

1380
01:14:06,080 --> 01:14:06,439
Speaker 3: read it.

1381
01:14:07,280 --> 01:14:09,479
Speaker 2: Thanks. If I can survive this next month, we'll hopefully

1382
01:14:09,560 --> 01:14:10,479
Speaker 2: have something to show for us.

1383
01:14:10,680 --> 01:14:11,439
Speaker 3: Good good luck.

1384
01:14:12,400 --> 01:14:17,160
Speaker 2: Thank you. All right, and that's going to wrap it

1385
01:14:17,240 --> 01:14:19,680
Speaker 2: up for us today. Thank you for joining me. I

1386
01:14:19,720 --> 01:14:22,920
Speaker 2: appreciate you being here for this conversation, and until next time,

1387
01:14:23,240 --> 01:14:25,559
Speaker 2: stay wired to Hunt.