WEBVTT - What Does It Take To Beat Addiction? With Nikki Sixx, Dr. Adi Jaffe, Dr. Abraham Palmer and Dr. Sandra Sanchez Roige. 0:00:04.120 --> 0:00:06.720 I'm Baryton Day Thurston and this is Spit and I 0:00:06.840 --> 0:00:10.080 Heart Radio podcast with twenty three and me. This is 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:13.080 the podcast that explores how DNA is changing our lives 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:16.480 and the world around us. So what does it take 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:21.360 to overcome addiction? America is sick. Americans are dying, Towns 0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:25.239 are being destroyed, economies are crippled all by addiction, and 0:00:25.320 --> 0:00:28.720 the numbers are devastating. On two people a day die 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.800 of drug overdoses, and they're killing more people than car 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:35.599 crashes and gun homicides combined. Prescription opioids and heroin are 0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:39.400 the prime contributors to these stats. Once hooked on prescription painkillers, 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:42.279 many people turned to heroin, which is often cut with 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:45.520 more lethal drugs because it's cheaper and easier than getting 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:48.319 another refill. Heroin used in the US has more than 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:51.400 doubled and heroin deaths have more than quadrupled in just 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:54.680 the past decade. These statistics are beyond alarming, and they're 0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:57.400 leaving us wondering what is it going to take to 0:00:57.480 --> 0:01:03.600 beat this addiction epidemic. In part one of this episode, 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:06.759 I sit down with two people who are actively using 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:10.280 their experience, their influence, and their voices to help answer 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:13.840 that question. Nikki six founding member and Bassis of the 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:17.360 world renowned rock band Motley Crew and six AM three 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:22.120 time New York Times bestselling author, public speaker, philanthropist, photographer, 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:26.560 and addiction recovery advocate. There was a whole inside me 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:31.720 that wasn't my fault, but later we've become my responsibility. 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:35.560 And Dr A. D. Jaffee, a world renowned mental health expert, 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:38.920 lecturer at u c L, A addiction specialist and author 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:42.640 of the Abstinence myth. Genetically, there are actually a few 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:47.280 dozen markers that are important when it comes to us 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:50.440 understanding whether somebody is more or less likely to become 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:53.040 an addict. After my conversation with Nikki and A. D. 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:56.000 I was left wondering is there a way to identify 0:01:56.160 --> 0:02:00.400 addictive or impulsive behaviors earlier before people succumb to a actions. 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:03.680 Listening to part two of this episode, where doctors Abraham 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:07.400 Palmer and Sandra Sanchez Roger of the University of California, 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:10.760 San Diego School of Medicines Department of Psychiatry share their 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:14.640 latest research. They discovered a genetic signature that correlates a 0:02:14.680 --> 0:02:19.480 person's ability to delay gratification with reduced chances of addictive behavior, 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:23.360 meaning those that place more value on instant gratification over 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:27.320 delayed gratification are more likely to experience addictive behaviors. Not 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:30.000 everybody's felt the same deck of cards. Not everybody goes 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:33.120 into these situations with the same strengths and weaknesses. Some 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:36.960 people are very vulnerable to these substances which are prevalent 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:40.040 in our society, and that shouldn't be seen as a 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:43.040 personal weakness, that shouldn't be seen as something that they 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:50.800 are blamed for. This is going to be interesting, this 0:02:51.040 --> 0:02:53.200 is going to be fun, and this is going to 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:57.200 be very real. Let's begin with Nikki and a d. 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:03.720 You both have some shared experiences. You both landed in 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:06.800 some beautiful places. Nikki, I want to start in the 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:10.440 beginning with you. What was your childhood and family life 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:13.160 like and how can you anchor that story of your 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:19.000 own addiction into those experiences. I was born in San Jose, California. 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:21.160 My father was the first in our family to be 0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:26.120 born in America. His parents, my grandparents, were immigrants from Italy. 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:30.080 My mom met my dad she was eighteen. He was 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:32.799 about forty two years old. I was two years old 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:35.640 when of my sister, Lisa was born with Down syndrome. 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:39.840 They were told to not take her from the hospital, 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:44.280 that she wouldn't live six days, much less six weeks 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:49.160 or six months. My dad was very passionate about bringing 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:52.200 her home, and they couldn't take care of her. It 0:03:52.280 --> 0:03:55.240 was nineteen sixty they didn't have the ability, and they 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:58.839 didn't have the finances. My dad was like a construction 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:01.240 worker and my mom was a stay at home mom, 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:05.480 so that my sister went to a home and I 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:08.440 was told that. I was very upset about that. I 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:09.960 was very excited I was gonna have a sister. I 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:13.200 was very upset as my first kind of thing I 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:16.200 can connect to what what might be an abandonment for me. 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:19.920 My dad left right after that, so I was about three, 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:23.520 and then my mom left right after that, and I 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:26.760 went to my grandparents, and I didn't know that I 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:31.680 had been basically abandoned until I hit, you know, maybe 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:35.160 my teens. I started to have a lot of anger 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:38.040 towards my mom and my dad and everybody else has 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:40.400 a mom and a dad, even if they were divorced. 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:44.159 I'm living in Idaho with my grandparents, are traveling every 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:48.039 six months. I become a very shy kid because I 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:50.000 was always the new kid in school. I didn't have 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:53.000 any roots. I didn't know who my family was, and 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:55.359 I didn't know until I was a little bit older. 0:04:55.360 --> 0:04:57.800 I actually didn't even know who I was. And the 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:01.840 one thing that I had was music. I go back 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:05.080 in time and I remember that was the thing. I 0:05:05.120 --> 0:05:07.920 think music actually saved my life. I think without music, 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:13.200 I might have ended my life early through either drugs, alcohol, 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:15.760 or some other other ways. So I always look at 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:17.880 music as like the thing that saved my life. That's 0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:20.080 a that's a deep story, and it's kind of actually amazing. 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:22.520 So many parallels, but you hear and I can see 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:27.040 all the work you've done by this moment to recognize 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:30.640 all those old patterns, right, because it's really interesting how 0:05:30.680 --> 0:05:33.320 different and yet how similar our stories are. My family 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:36.720 stayed together all the way through. My dad died of 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:39.240 cancer about ten years ago, still married to my mom, 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:42.600 but a lot of tumultuous elements of their relationship. They 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:45.640 almost separated multiple times, you know, place being thrown in 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:48.560 the house and yelling and shouting and a very emotionally 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:52.320 withdrawn family. We moved to the States and we moved around, 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:53.720 and I was the new kid in school and I 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:56.680 was an immigrant, and I needed ways to fit in 0:05:57.480 --> 0:05:59.960 and so which I can totally relate to you at 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:01.760 around the same age and well, I mean for me, 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:03.680 it was fourteen, so maybe a little bit later than 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:06.120 than the moving around started for you. And I was 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:08.640 always really socially anxious until the first time somebody handed 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:11.200 me a bottle of vodka at a sleepaway camp and 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:13.240 knew drinking was bad, but the only reason I drank 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:14.520 it at first was because I wasn't gonna be the 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:16.800 weird kid to say no. And I had a few 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:19.000 SIPs and I remember it burning down my throat, just 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:20.960 being disgusting. But I'm not gonna be the one throwing 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:23.480 up this stuff either, because all the kids are gonna 0:06:23.520 --> 0:06:26.359 make fun of me. And then fifteen minutes later it 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:29.640 hit and I was good, Like for the first time 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:32.680 it as long as I can remember, I didn't care 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:34.800 what other people thought of me. I didn't feel awkward. 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:37.480 I could talk to girls, all these things that I 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:39.680 wanted to figure out, but like you said, I didn't. 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:40.760 I didn't have a word for it. I didn't have 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:43.440 a name for it. I didn't recognize this was going on, 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:46.159 and now I found a solution. And I immediately after 0:06:46.200 --> 0:06:48.920 that sleepaway camp, I was drinking every weekend at fourteen, 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:52.640 and it gave me a group of people with whom 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:55.880 when I drank, at least, because I still didn't feel 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:58.440 like I belonged if I wasn't drinking, but when I drank, 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:00.880 I felt okay. And then we came around the same way. 0:07:00.880 --> 0:07:03.560 Everything came the same way, because as long as I 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:06.800 could belong, everything supposedly in my head would be okay. 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:09.120 But then that took me down some pretty dangerous routes. 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:12.280 You know, within five to ten years. It developed quickly 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:16.200 because the first drive, the first impetus, was just to 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:18.840 be all right and to just belong. And it sounds 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:21.600 like that's really really similar. I'm sure everybody listening to 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:24.640 totally understand why you would have that coming from that 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:28.000 background was the same for me. My earliest memory was 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:31.680 we I think we were living in Lake Tahoe and 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:34.280 there were these kids on the playground and one kid 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:37.720 had a little envelope and he had some seeds, which 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:40.720 then I know, like a gardener that was he was, 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:44.480 actually there were sunflower seeds he said it was you know, 0:07:44.640 --> 0:07:47.200 it was pot and I was like, I don't really 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:48.840 even know what that is. I mean that I was 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:54.240 very young, I found out and I fit in, and 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:56.160 all of a sudden, I wasn't the new kid in school. 0:07:56.880 --> 0:08:00.680 So it's the same thing. There was a whole inside 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:06.040 me that wasn't my fault, but later we become my responsibility. 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:09.840 There's always that thread back to either a single experience. 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:12.400 For some people experience of severe trauma in a moment, 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:16.920 but typically it's not one experience. It's almost an entire 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:21.920 existence that is centered on not fitting in, feeling less 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:24.480 than being outwardly mocked. One of my clients today it 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:27.480 was telling her mom just regularly called or miss Piggy, like, 0:08:28.320 --> 0:08:32.360 I don't know how you develop without having struggles and 0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:35.320 ideas about what's going on with your weight. When that's 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:36.719 the way that people are supposed to love you and 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:38.760 support you, relate to you. As humans, we want to 0:08:38.760 --> 0:08:41.240 feel comfortable. We we need for that to happen, and 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:44.000 we're supposed to get it from our socialization. And if 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:45.240 I'm not going to get it from the group of 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:47.880 people that I was born into, I'm gonna find it 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:50.520 somewhere else. We're going to talk about the biological piece 0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:53.160 of this a lot here today as well. But some 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:54.720 people I'm one of those people. I don't know if 0:08:54.760 --> 0:08:57.920 you are, but um, I have a proclivity to be 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:00.880 experimental and try stuff out, be a little bit more 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:04.960 maybe um inquisitive, inquisitive, impulsive, some of these other things 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:07.040 that some of the people I was born around, and 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:09.640 so when these things would show up, I was pretty 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:12.240 quick to jump on them and not really do a 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:14.760 lot of forethought and sit around and go, well, I've 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:16.760 heard this is bad. These kids want me to fit in. 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:18.679 What do I do? I just I jump on it. 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:21.120 It's also hard when the people that are saying it's 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:25.720 bad are actually not treating you good. So now you 0:09:25.800 --> 0:09:30.520 have some guy that's got a thing of something, and 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:33.040 even though you don't really know him, it's like, oh, 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:37.559 he's he's cool. Those guys are always cool to me, 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:40.240 Like the guy that had the weed, the guy that 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:43.280 you know they had a secret party and someone's I 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:46.120 was like, wow, that's so much cooler than my existence. 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:49.839 My existence is my mom ignored me, my dad ignored me. 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:53.000 Kind of a thing I think about and curious what 0:09:53.080 --> 0:09:56.559 you think about this, Do they know? Like I don't 0:09:56.600 --> 0:09:59.840 think my mom I knew what she was doing. I don't. 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:03.640 I don't don't know the pressure my dad had being 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:08.239 thirty years older than my mom in like the sixties, 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:12.679 and he left and was my mom crazy? I've heard 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:15.720 she was. I never really knew her. There's a child 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:19.960 with down syndrome, there's financial he just he left. Did 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:23.400 my mom know? Did they know? Shipping me off? And 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:25.679 and even even it's like almost maybe not fair that 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:28.520 I say shipping me off like I was like a 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:33.560 bottle of water. Maybe they just didn't have any other tools, 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:36.120 and maybe they thought they were saving you. Maybe what 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:39.760 you've both done a beautiful job of establishing is the 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:43.319 whole that addiction tries to fill a sense of lack 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:46.760 of community, of loneliness, of abandonment, of belonging that you 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:50.360 might not get from the people around you. So, Dr Jaffie, 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:55.520 how do we scientifically understand what addiction actually is? So 0:10:55.679 --> 0:10:58.480 I want to be really clear from the outset. Well, 0:10:58.520 --> 0:11:00.240 a lot of people listening might think that this is 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:03.120 a completely agreed upon idea. It's not. And there's a 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:06.559 lot of debate among scientists in the industry in general 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:08.959 about what addiction is. And everybody's heard the addiction disease 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:11.360 model for that's one of the predominant models in the 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:16.400 United States, for instance. Addiction absolutely has both biological and 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:21.240 environmental and psychological components. Everybody will acknowledge that the question 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:22.720 and I talked about this lot. There's a whole chapter 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:24.960 in the Absent Smith literally dedicated to this part. Is 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:27.320 for about a hundred years now, we've been fighting about 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:31.360 who rules that kingdom, right, like is it more biology 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:33.800 or more psychology or is all the environment. I think 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:36.280 that's a somewhat uniquely American thing that we kind of 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:38.520 want to know who one out, like who beats who 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:41.600 beat who? Did biology beat psychology? And I think the 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:43.880 reason I like this conversation he is I don't think 0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:46.959 there's really a winner. I think it becomes individually determined 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:50.760 by each person's experience. So addiction is literally in a 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:53.080 clinical sense and name we have given. We don't use 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:57.439 it in the clinical terms anymore. Alcohol use disorder for instances, 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:01.240 the name for what alcoholism is. An alcohol use disorder 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:04.280 can have a you know, a low level, of moderate level, 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:06.560 or severe level, and what it is is a collection 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:09.160 of symptoms. It's a set of things that show up together, 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:11.840 Drinking more than you want to, more frequently than you 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:13.720 want to, not being able to stop with yourself when 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:18.120 you say that you would um having consequences social, relational, 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:22.760 employment based consequences of health that a mass, and that 0:12:22.880 --> 0:12:25.640 you still cannot correct your behavior based on right. And 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:29.280 so the idea of an addiction is engaging in the 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:33.000 behavior or substitutes of some sort that is negatively impacting 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:36.400 your life in a multitude of ways, normally actually includes 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:39.080 cravings within it, somewhere where even when you're not using, 0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:41.640 you are looking for and wanting the thing, and that 0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:44.520 it shows up for a long enough period of time 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:47.320 with consequences to a mass, and the correction doesn't end 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:49.840 up resulting. That's really as broad of a definition as 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:52.720 you can have for addiction. And I include four criteria 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:56.200 in the books of spiritual, Psychological, environmental, and biological. And 0:12:56.240 --> 0:13:00.640 for me, spiritual is anything that connect you to something big, right, 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:03.120 Like my purpose now is to help other people struggling 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:05.480 with this. That's a big enough spiritual thing for me, 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:08.880 the helping of other humans. From the biological point of view, 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:10.600 I think this is a really important thing to talk about, 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:13.679 because there's no doubt that biology plays a part. I mean, 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:15.679 I know for you, Nikki, a big part of your 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:18.679 story was heroin. That's you talk about, but it was 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:20.920 the other stuff too, you know, you talk get my 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:24.120 hands on yeah, right, But you say something about heroin 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:25.680 that I used to say about meth which was I 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:29.200 used everything until I found that, and when I found that, 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:31.440 I was good. I did. I stopped drinking when I 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:35.360 found that. Heroin one for you and meth one. You 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:37.120 were doing music, you had another job. I became a 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:40.040 drug dealer. And I've read your story and it's it's fascinating. 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:42.960 Everything in my life was drugs. Yeah, but everything you 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:45.520 were headed on one way, and that just took your 0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:49.440 knees out from underneath you. Do you feel that there 0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:53.079 is an invisible line. Let's just use alcohol as a 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:55.960 young example. The guy gives you some vodka. You feel 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:59.480 like you fit in. You're getting some girls, like thinking 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:02.400 your kids. You you got a new bicycle, going to 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:05.720 some parties. You're drinking more. You throw up a couple 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:08.400 of times. You throw up. You know on your new bicycle. 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:13.800 There's signs that should keep going in one day I 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:17.520 crossed the line. Do you remember when that was? Kind 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:20.640 of don't And I've always wanted to ask somebody else, 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:23.640 So I think this is there's an invisible line. I don't. 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:26.240 I don't think there really is. And from a biological 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:29.160 stamp when things absolutely happen right, neither National Student on 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:31.360 Drug Addiction, in one of their papers a while back, 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:33.920 that's about twelve fifteen years ago, talked about essentially has 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:36.479 switched being thrown, which is a question you're asking biologically 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:38.840 in the brain. The thing is, we've never found that switch. 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:40.760 And it's not only that we've never found it, but 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:44.600 the story typically for people progresses along a continuum. Right, 0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:48.640 things continue to get worse, and that line is sometimes 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:50.640 perceived in hindsight. So when you get to the end 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:51.960 of the story, you can look back and say, well, 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:54.920 that's when things change. Like Matthews, I had no problem 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:56.520 admitting that I was addicted to meth. When I was 0:14:56.560 --> 0:14:58.640 addicted to it, I didn't call myself an addict because 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:01.880 I didn't understand that people like for you to take 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:04.920 on them, Yeah, like that wasn't a thing for you. 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:06.560 I told all my friends, AM like, I'm addicted to 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:08.120 I would wake up every day and just you use 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:10.040 meth after I just fell asleep because it was no 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:12.280 reason for me to do it other than the fact 0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:14.320 that it had now served this role in my life. 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:17.760 So biologically, a whole slew of things happened for hairin 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:20.160 for instance. Right, we know that one of the main 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:22.560 reasons why after continued hair on you is people have 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:25.760 a hard time stopping. Your body regulates so much to 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:29.760 the influx of opioids that all these normal processes that 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:33.880 were never a problem for you, like eating and digesting food, 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:36.520 just feeling comfortable in your skin literally so you're not 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:40.120 crawling with pain everywhere. All those things have now changed 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:42.000 because of the biology of the drug. And when you 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:46.360 take the drug away, you experienced severe pain diarrhea. Like 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:50.240 these things happen to your body. Doesn't make it anymore, right, yeah, 0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:52.640 and you and so this pain reliever that your body 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:54.960 used to make naturally for itself, your body has now 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:57.800 disregulated how it works and it has changed. That is 0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:01.160 an absolutely biological fact of what happens to a heroin addict. Now, 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:04.120 the fact that that happens, we used to think is 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:06.400 the only reason why people got addicted to heroin because 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:08.880 they couldn't stop the heroin use afterwards. But we know, 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:11.120 and I'm wondering about your experience, and the same thing 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:13.640 is at some point you kicked it. So at some 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:16.520 point even that was not enough to keep you from 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:18.880 the use. But what was the difference? To me, the 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:22.480 difference becomes the psychological components, the environmental components, and the 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:26.080 spiritual components. Something changed about those other ones that allowed 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:29.120 you to push through the biological piece because the biological 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:31.760 people never go away, it will always be there. What 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:33.760 to me is interesting and why I wrote the book 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:37.880 about the absence Smith is people pretend like recovery, like 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:40.480 getting over addiction. We just kind of define. I hope 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:42.000 that was good enough for you to find what addiction 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:44.280 is it is. But I want to jump in with 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:48.080 because you talk about sort of overcoming the biology, which 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:53.080 for this show comes back to genetics and predetermination or 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:58.560 predisposition or heredity or inheritance of a proclivity to have 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:03.520 an addictive personality or any physiology. So where are genetics 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:06.480 in the story of what addiction is? Sure? As an 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:08.199 umbrella to all this, I want to make sure that 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:12.080 we stay connected to the idea that while biology absolutely matters, 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:20.200 there is no known period, point blank predetermined genetic makeup, 0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:24.879 specific combination of alleles and genes that creates an addict 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:27.600 or an alcoholic that does not exist. When people talk 0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:31.200 about an alcoholic personality or an addictive personality, they're talking 0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:34.920 about the more complex thing that we were talking about before. Right, Genetically, 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:39.320 there are actually a few dozen markers that are important 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:43.080 when it comes to us understanding whether somebody is more 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:45.200 or less likely to become an addict. But the thing 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:49.080 is they run the gamut from how your liver processes 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:52.240 the drugs. Right. So, for instance, we know that there's 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:55.920 an alleal called l d H two two which has 0:17:55.960 --> 0:17:57.840 to do with a specific enzyme in your liver that 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:02.000 helps break down one of the by products of alcohol aldehyde. 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:05.280 If you can't break down aldehyde, then you know formaldehyde. Right, 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:07.960 everybody knows the name of that chemical. Aldehyde is toxic 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:10.600 to your body. And if you know anybody who drinks, 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:12.960 this happens a lot in Asian populations, drinks a tiny 0:18:12.960 --> 0:18:16.120 amount and gets really flush and sweaty. Their body can't 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:19.639 process alcohol. There's a chemical reason for that, and it's 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:21.640 because an enzyme and your liver doesn't exist to break 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:23.280 down this by product, which means that as soon as 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:26.200 you start drinking, your body goes into a toxicity sort 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:29.960 of state essentially, well not even just detecting it, just 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:33.159 being flooded with aldehyde, and so you can't process the 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:36.080 chemical appropriately. Those people don't drink a lot, so that 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:40.600 has to do with the biological predetermination. Those crowds that 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:44.080 literally have an allergic reaction literally when they drink it, 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:47.120 which was the opposite of us. But that's a kind 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:50.560 of a good thing. Yeah, well, so here's the interesting thing, right, 0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:54.280 This is what's interesting. Biologically, they're less likely to use alcohol, 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:57.960 but that doesn't remove their ability to become addicted because 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:00.639 they'll find something else to fill the gap. Biologically, we 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:02.680 end up chasing, well, what is the thing that's impacting. 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:04.760 So so so some of this is about literally how your 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:08.080 liver or your gut eliminates or processes the substance. So 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:10.000 that's one thing, and we have a lot of different 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:13.640 variants genetically. The next piece is then what happens once 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:15.760 it's in your bloodstream in terms of what receptors is 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:18.200 it able to connect to, what systems in your body? 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:21.000 Does this chemical attached to there's a reason why the 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:24.360 drugs we use, other drugs we use, right, TC attaches 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:26.439 to all these molecules all over I mean not just 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:30.600 your brain, your gut, all over your body their TC receptors, 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:33.119 opioids the same thing. All over your body. There are 0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:36.440 molecules that attached to one another. And so the variance 0:19:36.480 --> 0:19:39.320 because we don't all have the exact same receptors, whether 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:41.840 your receptor is more active or less active, will mean 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:44.400 that when the drug enters your system, you'll have more 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:47.919 of a reaction or less of reaction. Weirdly, people actually 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:52.240 have the opposite notion of how this happens. People struggle 0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:56.240 with alcohol primarily have a reduced sensitivity to alcohol, not 0:19:56.320 --> 0:19:58.760 a heightened sensitivity to alcohol. What does that mean? That 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:01.120 means that they drink more or in order to get 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:03.840 the same effect than other people around them, So they 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:06.520 become heavier drinkers from beginning. That starts setting up all 0:20:06.520 --> 0:20:09.240 those other biological processes. And there's some people that I've 0:20:09.280 --> 0:20:14.200 experienced in my life that would drink, you know, morning, noon, 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:18.760 night pass out. You're like that guy's not getting out 0:20:18.760 --> 0:20:21.520 of bed for three days. He's going to be the 0:20:21.560 --> 0:20:25.439 worst hangover up at seven o'clock in the morning in 0:20:25.520 --> 0:20:29.200 the gym, goes to launch, has a drink and does 0:20:29.240 --> 0:20:31.840 it again. How does that happen? So tolerance is an 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:35.240 amazing thing. When I drank, I get two day hangovers. 0:20:35.280 --> 0:20:38.399 In the end of my drinking career, I would it 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:43.840 would like, you know, you move up in the chain. 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:46.239 It's great. You know heroin use, right, if we just 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:49.680 go to that when people start using heroin, a small 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:53.760 amount delivers a huge bang and creates a massive effect. 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:55.959 I mean, once you get out over the nausea part, right, 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:58.280 you have to get over that. Once you get over that, 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:00.399 then it gives you this really big hay off in 0:21:00.520 --> 0:21:04.040 terms of feeling euphoric and and settled in a way 0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:06.680