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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: A couple of weeks before Christmas seventeen ninety nine, George Washington,

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Speaker 2: the first and perhaps the greatest president of the United States,

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Speaker 2: was enjoying retirement at his country estate, Mount Vernon.

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Speaker 1: Had ridden around his farms and.

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Speaker 2: Come home late, cold and in wet clothes, but guests

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Speaker 2: had come for dinner, and he hurried to entertain them

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Speaker 2: without changing into something dry. The next day, he had

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Speaker 2: a sore throat and a chesty cough. The day after that,

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Speaker 2: his throat was so badly inflamed that he had trouble breathing.

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Speaker 2: His family decided to take a fateful step. They summoned

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Speaker 2: a doctor. I'm Tim Harford, and you're listening to Cautionary Tales.

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Speaker 2: This is one of our cautionary conversations and today I'm well,

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Speaker 2: I'm out numbered. My guests are Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds,

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Speaker 2: the host of the hugely popular comedy history podcast The

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Speaker 2: Doll Up. Hello, gentlemen, how are you hello?

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Speaker 1: Hello?

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Speaker 3: Two Americans? No less So it's it's gonna be what

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Speaker 3: that's just gonna.

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Speaker 1: It's gonna be.

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Speaker 2: It's gonna be different. It's gonna be different. For caution Tales,

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Speaker 2: listeners anyway. So we are going to be talking about

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Speaker 2: a couple of stories that you covered on the Dollup,

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Speaker 2: and one of those is the death of George Washington,

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Speaker 2: and we'll talk about whatever else comes up. So thanks

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Speaker 2: for joining me. And it's easy to see why they

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Speaker 2: don't up is such a successful format, because what could

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Speaker 2: be more hilarious than the painful and pointless death of

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Speaker 2: the father of the nation.

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Speaker 3: I agreed you'd be shocked at think. I think this

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Speaker 3: all the time about how I'll like take a step

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Speaker 3: back and be like, we're laughing about a murder like

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Speaker 3: on our show, and I'll just be like, for the

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Speaker 3: for forty five minutes straight, we've just been making jokes.

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Speaker 3: But I'm like, two people are dead. But there are

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Speaker 3: just so many absurd moments, and this one among them.

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Speaker 3: Nobody knows how he died.

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Speaker 4: We're not taught it, and it really is the most

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Speaker 4: American thing of all that we.

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Speaker 3: Like, why wouldn't you be taught this?

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Speaker 5: We killed them, Like.

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Speaker 3: If you were teaching this in class, I would not

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Speaker 3: be like leaving school to go smoke cigarettes. I'd be like,

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Speaker 3: I'll do it at lunch. I want to see how

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Speaker 3: this ends. This is exciting, it is extraordinary.

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Speaker 2: I was listening to the episode, episode one oh one,

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Speaker 2: and I was just crying with laughter. I should have

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Speaker 2: been crying because a great man is dying me listening,

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Speaker 2: but there was just crying because.

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Speaker 1: It was it was very funny.

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Speaker 2: It was so we should probably run through what happens

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Speaker 2: when the doctors show up. So I think it's it's

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Speaker 2: doctor's yeah, doctor Dick, Dr Brown, Dr Crack.

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Speaker 1: I mean it's not great.

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Speaker 3: I mean it's just again. There are many times where

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Speaker 3: I'm like, you done it, this is low hanging fruit,

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Speaker 3: don't do it. But it's like, come on, this is

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Speaker 3: I feel like Dave made those up. I feel like,

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Speaker 3: if we look back, that's not the names of it.

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Speaker 2: Of course, the first thing they do is they start

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Speaker 2: taking blood from him, quite a lot of blood, right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, every guy that came in, every doctor that came in,

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Speaker 4: his first thing was well, we got to get blood

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Speaker 4: out of this guy.

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Speaker 5: And so each one trained over a pint.

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Speaker 2: I was trying to figure out did they did they

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Speaker 2: talk to each other about that? Or is that they

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Speaker 2: all had to have their fingerprints on it.

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: I don't think they were talking to each other. I

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Speaker 4: think they were just like, Okay, well now I'm here.

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Speaker 4: These other guys aren't doing a good job. I'm going

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Speaker 4: to take care of this. And then they train his blood, which.

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Speaker 3: Is also amazing to be like that, three independent opinions

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Speaker 3: of doctors when he was dying was we should get

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Speaker 3: blood out of him, like if your engine won't turn over,

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Speaker 3: and the mechanics like let's get the oil out.

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Speaker 2: So in the Washington's lifetime before he dies, there is

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Speaker 2: I think a Dutch doctor or maybe a Belgian doctor,

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Speaker 2: a young Baptist van Helmont. I think it's kind of

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Speaker 2: a bet with another doctor. He basically says, look, you

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Speaker 2: will take a hundred people with the plague or whatever

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Speaker 2: it is, and you treat them your way, and I'll

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Speaker 2: take another hundred people with a plague and I'll treat

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Speaker 2: them my way, and we'll see, we'll see who has

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Speaker 2: the most funerals, which is like it's a pretty simple idea.

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Speaker 2: But it turns out it doesn't catch on. He never

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Speaker 2: does it. None of these guys do it. Otherwise they

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Speaker 2: would have figured out that maybe draining I think it's

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Speaker 2: half of his blood in the end, isn't it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was most of Washington's blood. Yeah, I also

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Speaker 3: like that bet. I think that's fun for people be like,

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Speaker 3: why are you cutting his throat? Like I'm trying to

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Speaker 3: win a bet? I'm really I'm behind, so I need

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Speaker 3: to swing for the fences a little bit.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, simply like they didn't catch home.

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Speaker 4: It sounds it sounds like he just had a really

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Speaker 4: bad story throat. Yeah, he went out of the rain

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Speaker 4: and cold, and yeah.

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Speaker 3: He got my aunt. My aunt had COVID, so we

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Speaker 3: just drained her. She didn't make it.

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Speaker 2: Later, this other guy comes along and says, oh, you idiots,

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Speaker 2: he was too old. If if thirty, then yeah, sure

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Speaker 2: take six punts of blood.

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Speaker 5: But that's the old guy.

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Speaker 1: That was a mistake.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well oops, what are we gonna do? Well, that's

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Speaker 3: the end of him. He had a good run. Well,

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Speaker 3: then there's the beetle guy too, right, tell me about

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Speaker 3: the beetle dog. Yeah, we're not talking about Brian Epstein,

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Speaker 3: go ahead, Dave.

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Speaker 4: A guy came in I think it was the third doctor,

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Speaker 4: and he was like, you know what he needs is uh,

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Speaker 4: he needs a nice thick bed of beetles on his neck.

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Speaker 3: So and then he and then he whoops his pants

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Speaker 3: so he's got no blood, a beard of beetles, and

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Speaker 3: he's pooping his pants, and everyone's like, I think he's

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Speaker 3: gonna make it. We should probably drain a little more

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Speaker 3: blood just to be safe. It's so undignified.

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Speaker 4: I think they took blood four times, right, I think

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Speaker 4: it was four blood and they were taken like the

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Speaker 4: third time was like thirty two ounces, Like they were

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Speaker 4: really taking a lot of blood out of the sky.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I'm sure, Like yeah, like peas coming out. They're like, why,

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Speaker 3: I think he's out of blood.

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Speaker 2: Somebody proposed to tracheotomy, which it sounds like that might

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Speaker 2: actually have worked, Like if the guy can't breathe, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that would be that would work.

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Speaker 3: It's certainly the only procedure that made it to today. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: so there's maybe something to it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: True.

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Speaker 2: So I was looking into this, these strange kind of

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Speaker 2: lotions and vegetable compounds, and someone that women used to

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Speaker 2: take in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries for period

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Speaker 2: pains and pre menstrual stress and all this kind of stuff,

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Speaker 2: and the doctors used to think that these things were

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Speaker 2: completely ridiculous. And one of the things that the marketers

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Speaker 2: of these compounds said was basically, at least we won't

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Speaker 2: kill you. The doctors will kill you, and we won't

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Speaker 2: kill you. So the weird thing is they did notice

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Speaker 2: that the patients kept dying, and this was a selling

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Speaker 2: point for the alternative therapies, like non fatal.

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Speaker 5: That's all I need. I just need to know it

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Speaker 5: won't kill me, and I'll take it. That's the only

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Speaker 5: thing I worry about.

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Speaker 3: Well, it was also one thing we've we've talked, we

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Speaker 3: have a lot of fun with is the simplicity of

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Speaker 3: becoming a doctor was also you know, it was like

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Speaker 3: you just needed to have a sign and then you're

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Speaker 3: like open for business, you know, like a barber. But

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Speaker 3: even they needed a license. You could just simply just

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Speaker 3: say you're a doctor, and then you could just get

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Speaker 3: blood out of George Washington.

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Speaker 1: You needed a license to be a barber, but not

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Speaker 1: to be a doctor.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, like you manifested in the moment like I'm a doctor,

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Speaker 3: and that was that.

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Speaker 4: And then even when they made it, when they made licenses,

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Speaker 4: they would set up a medical school and you go

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Speaker 4: to the medical school and they just go, okay, you're

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Speaker 4: a doctor.

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Speaker 5: Like there was no yeah, no.

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Speaker 4: One was watching the medical school, So it was just

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Speaker 4: for ages. It was just you just said it and

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Speaker 4: that's what you were.

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Speaker 2: Presumably they needed to teach people how to drain a

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Speaker 2: couple of pints of blood though.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that was probably like one of the things

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Speaker 3: they're like, look, in case of an emergency, drain the blood.

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Speaker 3: Get the blood. The blood is something the body doesn't want.

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Speaker 5: I mean that was for a long time.

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Speaker 4: That was very common, and each doctor had his own

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Speaker 4: blood letting device that he would bring with him to

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Speaker 4: see a patient.

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Speaker 2: I think they favored something called the heroic style of medicine,

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Speaker 2: and I think part of the problem was that doctors

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Speaker 2: charged you a lot of money. So the idea is,

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Speaker 2: if you're going to show up and you're going to

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Speaker 2: charge somebody a lot of money, you better do something,

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Speaker 2: you know, go bigger, get home, right, Don't just get

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Speaker 2: a little bit of medicine or an aspirin or take

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Speaker 2: my temperature and say call me in the morning.

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Speaker 1: You've got to do something big.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And if bed rest was not but you didn't pay

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Speaker 3: for bed rest, you're like bullshit.

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Speaker 4: Right, And if the doctor comes diggs blood, you're like, oh,

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Speaker 4: I feel different, I feel a little.

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Speaker 3: Woozy, something's happening.

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Speaker 2: That was part of the attraction of the of the

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Speaker 2: vegetable compound as well, because they had booze in or

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Speaker 2: some of them had opium, some had booze, some had chili,

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Speaker 2: some had all of them.

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Speaker 5: Ah.

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Speaker 2: And so you know, if it's if it's basically as

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Speaker 2: strong as sherry, you know, you will feel different and

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Speaker 2: maybe different is better, and certainly it's better than having

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Speaker 2: losing a pint of blood.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but he could have done himself a lot of

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Speaker 3: favors by changing his clothes. But had they just simply

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Speaker 3: let him be, he had a much higher chance of survival.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but he was dead two days after, you know,

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Speaker 2: going out and getting his clothes wet and then having

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Speaker 2: dinner and wet clothes.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's.

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Speaker 4: Pretty quick to die of a cold, right, Yeah, yeah, definitely.

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Speaker 4: I mean, let's let's just flat out and say he

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Speaker 4: didn't die of a cold.

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Speaker 5: He died because he got a cold.

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Speaker 3: What do you think got him? And then do you

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Speaker 3: think got him?

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Speaker 4: And then a bunch of guys came in and took

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Speaker 4: the stuff that was supposed to be inside his body

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Speaker 4: out of his body, and then.

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Speaker 5: That well, that pretty much killed me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know you're a bad doctor when you're the

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Speaker 3: beatlebeard guy and you history smiles upon you greatest.

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Speaker 4: I remember, these are the guys treating Washington. So these

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Speaker 4: are the top doctors.

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Speaker 3: The best of the best, the best of the best.

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Speaker 3: The guys are.

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Speaker 2: There was well, note they did they did turn away

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Speaker 2: right like the one guy who had actually have an

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Speaker 2: idea and they went, oh, no, that you've gone too far.

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Speaker 2: The guy who thought maybe will resurrect him, Yeah, that

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Speaker 2: was the thing.

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Speaker 3: There's a guy who thought maybe we could do George

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Speaker 3: Washington thriller.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, of course, of course. There's there's three guys that

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Speaker 5: kill him. And then there's the guy that came in

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Speaker 5: and was.

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Speaker 4: Like, let's let's do let's have a do over, let's

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Speaker 4: bring him back.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you get a little fire on that guy, he'll

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Speaker 5: come right.

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Speaker 3: Back and his first words are going to be what

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Speaker 3: were you doing? That was crazy? When those guys got

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Speaker 3: rid of all my blood.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't believe the guy who wanted to bring him

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Speaker 2: back from the dead actually made more sense than the

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Speaker 2: than the first three, because he's like, we'll add some blood.

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Speaker 2: We've got a lamb and said, lamb's blood, pump up

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Speaker 2: his lungs, you know, give him the kiss of life,

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Speaker 2: warm him up, let you go.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean yeah, they're right, burser warmer, and they're.

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Speaker 5: Like, get out of here alone.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, I wonder what they did with his blood,

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Speaker 3: because it would have been really helpful if like the

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Speaker 3: blood was nearby. But if that guy's pitching Lamb blood,

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Speaker 3: it must they must have just been like, all right,

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Speaker 3: pour that in the garden.

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Speaker 5: I'm at that at that time. It just went on

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Speaker 5: the floor.

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Speaker 2: I would take and just tell me they didn't cook

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Speaker 2: with it, That's all I want to know.

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Speaker 3: And then they made a blood everyone liking the Ravioli.

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Speaker 2: We're really channeling the spirit of the doll up here.

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Speaker 2: I've got no idea what caution details listeners are making

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Speaker 2: of all this, But the simple imposition of modern standards

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Speaker 2: this on the seventeen hundreds is just very funny.

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Speaker 4: We have learned so much over that time that, I mean,

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Speaker 4: the thoughts in their head are just absolutely bananas. So

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Speaker 4: from our perspective, it's just everything they do is completely insane,

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Speaker 4: Like you cannot believe what's happening.

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Speaker 3: Most of what they think is just crazy and wrong.

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Speaker 3: But then we do that with things that happened today too.

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Speaker 3: I mean we always are going like you know, this

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Speaker 3: is we are living in a doll up with this

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Speaker 3: or that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, look, we had a president he tells people to

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Speaker 4: drink bleach when they got COVID.

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Speaker 5: So that's the.

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Speaker 3: Part of me injected, part of me, sir injected. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: first of all, I will not have you mock the

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Speaker 3: greatest presidents in George lash still mind. You should go

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Speaker 3: the same way in my opinion, and not a lot

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Speaker 3: of people know. If you drained Trump, Nacho Cheese comes

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Speaker 3: out of his veins.

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Speaker 2: I was gonna ask, what was the moment in history

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Speaker 2: when people stop being completely ridiculous?

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Speaker 5: But yeah, it hasn't started.

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Speaker 3: You can't wait to find it.

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Speaker 5: I can't wait to find it.

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Speaker 3: Won't be in our lifetimes.

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Speaker 2: Caution, Detales is going to be back in a moment,

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Speaker 2: and when we get back, we will answer the question

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Speaker 2: if you get run over and killed by a car,

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Speaker 2: can the driver sue you.

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Speaker 1: We're back.

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Speaker 2: I'm talking to the creators of the dollop, namely the

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Speaker 2: historic comedians Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds. We've talked about

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Speaker 2: Dollup one oh one, which is an episode, not a

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Speaker 2: freshman course. Now let's talk about Dollop one nine three,

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Speaker 2: which is all about what happened when people had the

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Speaker 2: temerity to use this sets for driving cars, which was

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Speaker 2: kind of a radical move, right, the idea that oh,

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Speaker 2: these streets, we could just drive cars on them.

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Speaker 1: This was I mean it was a ballsy move.

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Speaker 4: At first, the streets were for horses and carriages and

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Speaker 4: mostly hanging out and for kids to play kids, yeah,

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Speaker 4: pigs and for kids to play in That was what

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Speaker 4: streets were for. So all of a sudden there's things

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Speaker 4: on them and people are like, no, that's not what

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Speaker 4: goes here.

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Speaker 2: Like in New York, you couldn't have the kids playing

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Speaker 2: in Central Park, right because Central Park is for you know,

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Speaker 2: it is for people of quality. You can't have the

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Speaker 2: neighborhood kids coming and playing in the park. So they

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Speaker 2: play on the street. Obviously, they play on the street.

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Speaker 2: That's where that's what you do with kids. I mean,

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Speaker 2: the early cars it didn't really matter because they do

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Speaker 2: about four miles an hour. But then along comes the

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Speaker 2: Model T and that does forty five, and that's that's

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Speaker 2: going to sting if it just plows through your game

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Speaker 2: of baseball or whatever.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's not great. This episode, I think more than most,

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Speaker 3: really did blow my mind because you are just when

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Speaker 3: you live in the world today, you just automatically go, yeah,

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Speaker 3: well you walk here and you you know, you wait

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Speaker 3: for the car and all that. But it would be

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Speaker 3: like if we were to just like have to incorporate

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Speaker 3: UFOs into our society, there would be a tremendous amount

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Speaker 3: of growing pains and killing. And that's what there was.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it is, it is chaos.

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Speaker 2: Two thirds of the deaths in major cities would just

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Speaker 2: in New York times, cars just running over kids.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and for like it was like fifteen years, no

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Speaker 4: one was like slow down. It just it just went

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Speaker 4: like you just drove as fast as you could wherever

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Speaker 4: you could your car.

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Speaker 5: Cars rolled over all the time. It is called turtling.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, people just didn't they didn't know what

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Speaker 2: to do about cars. They didn't know how to drive cars.

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Speaker 2: I've got this driver training bulletin Sportsmanlike Driving, which is

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Speaker 2: a great title for like how to drive sportsman Like Driving,

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Speaker 2: which aims to explain to drivers why if they if

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Speaker 2: they go round a corner, it really fast, they're gonna

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Speaker 2: flip and it may would may not be a good

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Speaker 2: idea and they just didn't know.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I think we even get into it in the episode

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Speaker 3: of like, well how did they not know that too

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Speaker 3: fast was and turning? Like they had other things like

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Speaker 3: but they couldn't process that connection. Surely they'd seen a

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Speaker 3: carriage overturn or or other things flip, but or even

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Speaker 3: a person. But to them, they were like, no, no,

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Speaker 3: that should be fine, but you can't. You really can't

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Speaker 3: put yourself in their headspace before turning was something you

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Speaker 3: had to really pay attention.

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Speaker 2: And I guess you don't have You don't have this

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Speaker 2: whole infrastructure like driving licenses and driving instructors, and you

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Speaker 2: just bought a car and you're rich because you must

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Speaker 2: speak because you've got a car, and you go for it.

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Speaker 2: You find out the hard way, or more likely just

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Speaker 2: like eleven Street urchins find out the hard way, whereas

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Speaker 2: you just drive through.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 4: You go home at the end of your driving, you

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Speaker 4: just you hose off the children's blood and put your

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Speaker 4: car in the garage.

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Speaker 3: It always comes down to blood. It's all about blood.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, I mean there's quite a lot of that

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Speaker 2: in cautionary tales as well, I have to say. But

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Speaker 2: this turn though, this moment where society is trying to

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Speaker 2: wrestle with this, and it's partly just an argument over well,

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Speaker 2: who deserves to be in the streets, Like who do

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Speaker 2: the streets belong to? And whose fault is it? If

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Speaker 2: a car drives into a kid or into any pedestrian

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Speaker 2: for a while, it's obviously the driver's fault. And then

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Speaker 2: there's this kind of amazing piece of public relations jiu

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Speaker 2: jitsu that the auto lobby managed to achieve and manage

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Speaker 2: to make it seem like, oh no, no, it's actually it's

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Speaker 2: you get hit by a car, that's your fault.

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Speaker 1: The car is not to blame.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, well there's no It turns out it turns

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Speaker 4: out there's no profit in having children play in the street,

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Speaker 4: but there is profit in selling cars and tires and gas.

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Speaker 4: And so they did it really fast. They like this

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Speaker 4: battle year. I mean this battle was going on for years.

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Speaker 5: Years.

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Speaker 4: I mean like twenty years or something or more. I

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Speaker 4: can't remember exactly how many, but it's like twenty years

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Speaker 4: of kids getting killed and people getting killed in the

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Speaker 4: streets and they're having parades of like, you know, women

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Speaker 4: with a little star on their shirt walking on the

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Speaker 4: street that signified their child that died.

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Speaker 5: And and they're.

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Speaker 3: They're in the street, in the street, yes.

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Speaker 4: And they're they're they're they're they're towing cars that have

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Speaker 4: been in car accidents. Like so they're just showing all

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Speaker 4: this stuff. It's going on for years, this publicity, and

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Speaker 4: then the car companies and the tire companies, gas companies

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Speaker 4: get together and they immediately just flip the narrative. And

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Speaker 4: I believe correct the biggest thing that flipped it was walking.

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Speaker 4: They came up with the term jaywalking because jay meant

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Speaker 4: like you country bumpkin, you you dumb hick. And so

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Speaker 4: they started calling people who walked in the street jaywalkers,

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Speaker 4: and it was highly offensive and they started basically.

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Speaker 5: Shaming people who were in the street.

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Speaker 2: It's an incredible move. So it's like only somebody who'd

403
00:19:33,330 --> 00:19:37,370
Speaker 2: never seen a car before would Only somebody from a

404
00:19:37,450 --> 00:19:40,770
Speaker 2: really rural area only used to horses. Only an idiot

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Speaker 2: like that would get themselves killed by a car. And

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Speaker 2: if you get killed by a car, you should just

407
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Speaker 2: be embarrassed.

408
00:19:48,810 --> 00:19:53,330
Speaker 3: Yeah, all those all those little kiddie bumpkins. Just this

409
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Speaker 3: five year old. There's five year old hay seed.

410
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Speaker 1: It's it's amazing. It is amazing.

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Speaker 3: Also, there's that phase where jaywalkers. Then that then the

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Speaker 3: people just went with like jay drivers and they were

413
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Speaker 3: trying to call people jay drivers for a while, and

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Speaker 3: that was just sort of like, yeah, it wasn't as good.

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00:20:13,810 --> 00:20:15,530
Speaker 3: You know, people are like that, come on, come up

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Speaker 3: with something better. They're like a day driver. Come on, everybody,

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Speaker 3: he's a jay driver.

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Speaker 5: Get out here.

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Speaker 3: My family's been killed.

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Speaker 4: To me, this is the greatest example of any dollar

421
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Speaker 4: we've done about how stubborn we are. Kids getting mowed

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Speaker 4: down for twenty years in the street. Like after two years,

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Speaker 4: you should have been like, Okay, let's just get off

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Speaker 4: the street. It's not working, but I.

425
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Speaker 1: Need to do something about the demanding thing.

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Speaker 5: But no, yeah, yeah, they just demanded to be on

427
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Speaker 5: the street.

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Speaker 4: And you know, at some point you go, this is

429
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Speaker 4: that we're losing this battle because there those are cars

430
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Speaker 4: and we're people, so we should get off the street.

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Speaker 5: But they just hung in there for years getting killed.

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Speaker 1: I was really.

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Speaker 2: Struck by a recent episode of the podcast ninety nine

434
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Speaker 2: Percent Invisible about traffic. In Japan, you're not allowed to

435
00:21:04,050 --> 00:21:07,570
Speaker 2: drive your children to school, and oh, I mean I

436
00:21:07,570 --> 00:21:09,610
Speaker 2: think this maybe just is in Tokyo, but you can't

437
00:21:09,650 --> 00:21:11,210
Speaker 2: drive your children to school. And it's like, well, why

438
00:21:11,290 --> 00:21:13,530
Speaker 2: can't you drive your children to school? And the answer is, well,

439
00:21:14,130 --> 00:21:16,370
Speaker 2: because lots of children are walking to school and if

440
00:21:16,410 --> 00:21:19,010
Speaker 2: you drive your children to school, that's a hazard. And

441
00:21:19,050 --> 00:21:21,130
Speaker 2: it's just a oh, yeah, that makes sense. But it's

442
00:21:21,130 --> 00:21:23,890
Speaker 2: just a totally different way of looking at things. When

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Speaker 2: you look back at the United States in the early

444
00:21:26,050 --> 00:21:28,570
Speaker 2: nineteen hundreds, you realize, oh, it could have gone this way,

445
00:21:28,610 --> 00:21:29,130
Speaker 2: but it didn't.

446
00:21:29,490 --> 00:21:29,770
Speaker 5: Yeah.

447
00:21:29,970 --> 00:21:33,890
Speaker 4: I mean, we built our entire society around cars essentially

448
00:21:34,130 --> 00:21:36,650
Speaker 4: starting at that point, which I don't know how many

449
00:21:36,650 --> 00:21:39,970
Speaker 4: other countries have done to the extent that we have

450
00:21:40,210 --> 00:21:44,090
Speaker 4: the urban sprawl and the highway system.

451
00:21:43,450 --> 00:21:45,610
Speaker 5: And all that. So we definitely did that.

452
00:21:45,650 --> 00:21:48,370
Speaker 4: The other thing that I think goes to your point

453
00:21:48,410 --> 00:21:51,850
Speaker 4: of how much things could have gone differently is Ford

454
00:21:52,210 --> 00:21:53,530
Speaker 4: was building electric cars.

455
00:21:54,890 --> 00:21:56,970
Speaker 5: Yeah, but he was in business with Edison.

456
00:21:57,690 --> 00:22:01,970
Speaker 4: Edison was kind of bad at inventions, and he was

457
00:22:02,170 --> 00:22:06,210
Speaker 4: craking out really crappy batteries, So all the batteries he

458
00:22:06,330 --> 00:22:10,930
Speaker 4: sent to Ford were terrible and didn't work, and so Ford,

459
00:22:11,210 --> 00:22:15,090
Speaker 4: instead of trying to find new battery companies he was

460
00:22:15,290 --> 00:22:17,250
Speaker 4: he was in business, Edison said, okay, we won't do

461
00:22:17,290 --> 00:22:18,130
Speaker 4: the electric cars.

462
00:22:19,170 --> 00:22:22,290
Speaker 2: Batteries were bad then, or it was specifically Edison's batteries.

463
00:22:22,770 --> 00:22:26,850
Speaker 4: Specifically Edison's batteries were bad, and so that's why.

464
00:22:26,730 --> 00:22:31,170
Speaker 3: He called them batteries.

465
00:22:32,250 --> 00:22:34,850
Speaker 2: The fact that there could have been electric cars, well,

466
00:22:35,170 --> 00:22:38,130
Speaker 2: that there were electric cars one hundred and twenty years ago,

467
00:22:38,410 --> 00:22:40,930
Speaker 2: and that that maybe that whole thing could have taken

468
00:22:40,930 --> 00:22:44,490
Speaker 2: a different turn, is I think mind blowing.

469
00:22:44,850 --> 00:22:45,330
Speaker 1: Yeah.

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00:22:45,410 --> 00:22:48,570
Speaker 2: One of our most popular episodes of cautioning tales was

471
00:22:48,570 --> 00:22:52,570
Speaker 2: called The False Dawn of the Electric Car, and it

472
00:22:52,650 --> 00:22:56,610
Speaker 2: was about this guy called Clive Sinclair, who was a

473
00:22:56,650 --> 00:23:01,730
Speaker 2: British very successful inventor, slightly odd guy, having made a

474
00:23:01,770 --> 00:23:04,290
Speaker 2: load of money in calculators and then a load of

475
00:23:04,290 --> 00:23:08,570
Speaker 2: money in personal computers in the nineteen eighties. He then

476
00:23:08,690 --> 00:23:11,330
Speaker 2: lost my most of his money trying to make this

477
00:23:11,450 --> 00:23:14,330
Speaker 2: electric car. But his vision for the electric car is

478
00:23:14,570 --> 00:23:17,730
Speaker 2: I won't start with a car, I'll start with something smaller.

479
00:23:18,010 --> 00:23:18,730
Speaker 1: So he made this thing.

480
00:23:18,730 --> 00:23:21,170
Speaker 2: It was kind of like it was like riding around

481
00:23:21,210 --> 00:23:24,890
Speaker 2: in a giant white stiletto. That's the kind of vibe

482
00:23:24,930 --> 00:23:27,370
Speaker 2: it had, and it did about.

483
00:23:27,250 --> 00:23:29,250
Speaker 3: Fifties like that.

484
00:23:30,250 --> 00:23:32,930
Speaker 2: He later became a professional poker player and married a stripper.

485
00:23:32,970 --> 00:23:35,690
Speaker 2: So I mean, was it a call down to another stripper?

486
00:23:35,690 --> 00:23:37,130
Speaker 2: I don't want to get it wrong, but he was

487
00:23:37,170 --> 00:23:39,970
Speaker 2: a you know, he was an interesting guy. He was

488
00:23:40,050 --> 00:23:43,330
Speaker 2: not a conventional geek. When I looked at this, I

489
00:23:43,330 --> 00:23:46,050
Speaker 2: couldn't help but think did he just get the timing wrong?

490
00:23:47,170 --> 00:23:51,770
Speaker 2: Because Elon Musk tweeted after he died about how much

491
00:23:51,810 --> 00:23:54,610
Speaker 2: he loved Clive Sinclair's first computer and how like Elon

492
00:23:54,730 --> 00:23:58,810
Speaker 2: Musk had grown up using this computer that Clive Sinclair

493
00:23:58,810 --> 00:24:01,570
Speaker 2: had had created. And you think, what Elon Musk is

494
00:24:01,610 --> 00:24:05,530
Speaker 2: like one of the richest guys on the planet. Because

495
00:24:05,530 --> 00:24:09,090
Speaker 2: of his investment in Tesla, the electric car company, Clives

496
00:24:09,130 --> 00:24:11,570
Speaker 2: and Clai lost all his money trying to make this

497
00:24:11,650 --> 00:24:14,130
Speaker 2: electric car. Did he just get the timing wrong? Or

498
00:24:14,210 --> 00:24:15,210
Speaker 2: was it something else?

499
00:24:15,210 --> 00:24:15,490
Speaker 5: Could it?

500
00:24:15,530 --> 00:24:17,050
Speaker 2: Could it have worked if only he had kind of

501
00:24:17,130 --> 00:24:18,770
Speaker 2: made something that didn't look like a goofy shoe.

502
00:24:18,850 --> 00:24:19,250
Speaker 1: I don't know.

503
00:24:20,290 --> 00:24:22,890
Speaker 4: Well, the I think the biggest problem for the electric

504
00:24:22,970 --> 00:24:27,250
Speaker 4: car in Edison's and Ford's time, and probably Saint Clair's

505
00:24:27,290 --> 00:24:31,570
Speaker 4: time is the infrastructure of not being able to plug

506
00:24:31,610 --> 00:24:35,650
Speaker 4: in everywhere and charge your car. That's always the biggest

507
00:24:35,650 --> 00:24:38,970
Speaker 4: thing holding it back. I think if Ford had wanted to,

508
00:24:39,490 --> 00:24:43,690
Speaker 4: if Ford had gone into the electric car and kept

509
00:24:43,770 --> 00:24:47,210
Speaker 4: going with it, even you know, moving away from Edison's batteries,

510
00:24:47,570 --> 00:24:51,290
Speaker 4: he would have been the guy, because of his power

511
00:24:51,370 --> 00:24:55,330
Speaker 4: and wealth, who would have created a system of you know,

512
00:24:55,410 --> 00:24:58,010
Speaker 4: stations to plug in your car, because that's what Musk

513
00:24:58,050 --> 00:25:00,730
Speaker 4: did immediately. He knew immediately, well there needs to be

514
00:25:01,330 --> 00:25:04,130
Speaker 4: infrastructure out there to plug in your car. That always

515
00:25:04,130 --> 00:25:06,370
Speaker 4: seemed to me to be the big thing holding it back.

516
00:25:07,410 --> 00:25:11,930
Speaker 2: And you still think Edison was it was particularly about inventions.

517
00:25:12,890 --> 00:25:16,370
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, if you if you put Tesla

518
00:25:16,410 --> 00:25:18,130
Speaker 4: against Edison, Yeah.

519
00:25:18,010 --> 00:25:20,090
Speaker 5: Edison was a real bad dude. He was.

520
00:25:20,530 --> 00:25:22,970
Speaker 4: He was more about you know, crushing other people and

521
00:25:24,050 --> 00:25:26,330
Speaker 4: you know, taking what they had than.

522
00:25:27,850 --> 00:25:28,570
Speaker 5: Anything else.

523
00:25:29,010 --> 00:25:30,050
Speaker 3: He'd thrive today.

524
00:25:30,490 --> 00:25:33,730
Speaker 1: Send your Tesla Edison fanboy mail to.

525
00:25:36,890 --> 00:25:37,650
Speaker 3: No No, just Dave.

526
00:25:37,690 --> 00:25:41,610
Speaker 2: I didn't say anything, guys, it's been an absolute pleasure

527
00:25:41,890 --> 00:25:44,130
Speaker 2: having you be part of Caution Tales. Thank you so much.

528
00:25:44,290 --> 00:25:46,130
Speaker 2: Where can people find the doll up? As if they

529
00:25:46,130 --> 00:25:47,290
Speaker 2: haven't already found the Dollup.

530
00:25:47,490 --> 00:25:48,850
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can listen to the doll Up. We're on

531
00:25:49,050 --> 00:25:52,850
Speaker 3: All Things Comedy Network or really, like we always say,

532
00:25:52,890 --> 00:25:54,330
Speaker 3: wherever you listen to podcasts.

533
00:25:54,730 --> 00:25:56,650
Speaker 4: So in the DALP feed we have started a new

534
00:25:56,650 --> 00:26:00,530
Speaker 4: podcast which you were on, called The Pastimes, which is

535
00:26:00,810 --> 00:26:03,410
Speaker 4: similar to The doll Up, in which we I pick

536
00:26:03,450 --> 00:26:05,810
Speaker 4: a newspaper and we just read through it with a

537
00:26:05,850 --> 00:26:09,330
Speaker 4: guest from any time, from like the sixteen hundred up

538
00:26:09,370 --> 00:26:12,330
Speaker 4: to now, old.

539
00:26:12,210 --> 00:26:15,650
Speaker 3: Newspapers of material and subject matter. I discovered it's super

540
00:26:15,690 --> 00:26:18,050
Speaker 3: weird every time. Somehow they're very weird.

541
00:26:19,330 --> 00:26:21,690
Speaker 1: Gareth Dave, thank you very much, Thank.

542
00:26:21,530 --> 00:26:24,810
Speaker 3: You, Thank you, Tim a pleasure and now Viva George Washington.

543
00:26:26,370 --> 00:26:38,250
Speaker 2: If Only, If Only Cautionary Tales is written by me,

544
00:26:38,490 --> 00:26:41,970
Speaker 2: Tim Harford with Andrew Wright. It's produced by Alice Fines

545
00:26:42,130 --> 00:26:45,770
Speaker 2: with support from Marilyn Rust. The sound design and original

546
00:26:45,850 --> 00:26:49,970
Speaker 2: music is the work of Pascal Wise. Sarah Nix edited

547
00:26:49,970 --> 00:26:53,250
Speaker 2: the scripts. It features the voice talents of Ben Crowe,

548
00:26:53,530 --> 00:26:57,530
Speaker 2: Melanie Guttridge, Stella Harford, Jamma Saunders, and Rufus Wright.

549
00:26:58,290 --> 00:26:59,450
Speaker 1: The show also.

550
00:26:59,330 --> 00:27:02,370
Speaker 2: Wouldn't have been possible without the work of Jacob Weisberg,

551
00:27:02,610 --> 00:27:07,850
Speaker 2: Ryan Dilley, Greta Cohne, Betel Mollard, John Schnaz, Eric's handler,

552
00:27:08,170 --> 00:27:12,650
Speaker 2: Carrie Brody, and Christina Sullivan. Cautionary Tales is a production

553
00:27:12,850 --> 00:27:17,490
Speaker 2: of Pushkin Industries. It's recorded at Wardoor Studios in London

554
00:27:17,690 --> 00:27:21,770
Speaker 2: by Tom Berry. If you like the show, please remember

555
00:27:21,810 --> 00:27:25,930
Speaker 2: to share, rate and review, tell your friends and if

556
00:27:25,930 --> 00:27:28,330
Speaker 2: you want to hear the show ad free. Sign up

557
00:27:28,370 --> 00:27:32,210
Speaker 2: for Pushkin Plus on the show page in Apple Podcasts

558
00:27:32,330 --> 00:28:13,770
Speaker 2: or at pushkin dot Fm, slash plus