Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.
Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years
Speaker 2: writing about true crime.
Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's
Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.
Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most
Speaker 2: compelling true crimes.
Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring
Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries.
Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime
Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.
Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.
Speaker 2: This is buried Bones.
Speaker 3: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you.
Speaker 1: I'm doing well.
Speaker 2: I am tasking you with doing the summary from last
Speaker 2: week's episode of The Mess that is in the Colorado
Speaker 2: Territory in eighteen sixty three.
Speaker 1: It's awful.
Speaker 2: Tell me what you remember, and then I'll tell you
Speaker 2: you were wrong about.
Speaker 1: All of that. Just kidding you know.
Speaker 3: So I have to look at my notes from last week.
Speaker 3: But so it appears in March of eighteen sixty three,
Speaker 3: we start having a series of men being robbed and killed.
Speaker 3: The first one Franklin. He's on, you know, driving a
Speaker 3: stagecoach with horses down to a sawmill, and he's found
Speaker 3: shot through the heart and has a cross carved into him.
Speaker 3: And then in short order, we have a series of
Speaker 3: other men that are being killed, either being shot or
Speaker 3: an axe has been used on them over the course
Speaker 3: of you knowmultiple weeks. But relative to the distances that
Speaker 3: these crimes are occurring, the offender is moving around and
Speaker 3: is attacking in short order, and at least at this
Speaker 3: point in time, it appears that this is an offender
Speaker 3: that is committing these crimes for financial motive. But I'm
Speaker 3: not entirely convinced about that. And so that's where I'm
Speaker 3: curious to see details or hear details about other crimes
Speaker 3: and ultimately you know who was committing these crimes.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: And let's go through just the victims, just to remind everybody,
Speaker 2: because sometimes I have to go back and say people's names.
Speaker 2: So the first victim we have is Franklin. He was
Speaker 2: at his sawmill and that was not very far from
Speaker 2: his home in Kingan City.
Speaker 1: Then we had the next.
Speaker 2: Day, Henry, and he was the one who was supposed
Speaker 2: to be cooking inside the cabin. He was found with
Speaker 2: you know, axe hacks all over his body and he
Speaker 2: was shot.
Speaker 1: Then we have.
Speaker 2: March thirty first, which is eleven days later, we have
Speaker 2: John Addleton and John was murdered at away station and
Speaker 2: it looks like rob the place was tossed completely.
Speaker 1: Then we have about eight.
Speaker 2: Days later after that, much further north, we have Jacob
Speaker 2: Binkley and Abram Shoop and they are out of campsite
Speaker 2: and they are murdered. And the sequencing is difficult in
Speaker 2: that one, but it looks like Abram tried to get away.
Speaker 2: And what I thought was interesting Paul's it looks like
Speaker 2: there's only one shot per victim, and I don't know
Speaker 2: what that means. So it says, you know that Addleton
Speaker 2: was shot in the head, John was shot in the head,
Speaker 2: Henry was shot through the head, also forehead, and then
Speaker 2: you have Franklin who was shot through the heart. Now
Speaker 2: we have Jacob who was shot in the back. And
Speaker 2: then Shoop was found at the bottom of the gulch.
Speaker 2: He was not shot, he was stabbed. They didn't say
Speaker 2: anything about an axe. So is this somebody who is
Speaker 2: just a really good shot or I mean one shot
Speaker 2: for each of these victims. It sounds like except for
Speaker 2: one of them.
Speaker 3: Well, I think just like what I was talking about
Speaker 3: last week, with these sounds like black powder weapons. You know,
Speaker 3: I'm not convinced that they would be able to identify
Speaker 3: the type of weapon. You know, it's not like they're
Speaker 3: looking at, you know, the general rifling characteristics that we
Speaker 3: look at today in order to determine making model of
Speaker 3: the weapon that fired a projectile. These are black powder guns,
Speaker 3: and it very well may be that the weapon that
Speaker 3: the offenders using only could fire one round before being reloaded,
Speaker 3: and it takes a while to reload these black powder weapons,
Speaker 3: so that may be just a practical reason why there's
Speaker 3: only one shot. And these weapons are not accurate relative
Speaker 3: to modern firearms. So these victims particularly, I believe it
Speaker 3: was you know, Henry who shot inside you know, this
Speaker 3: cabin and he shot in the forehead. That would suggest
Speaker 3: because of the inaccuracy of these weapons. You know, Henry's
Speaker 3: not being sniped from a distance. He the offender is
Speaker 3: probably within that cabin and at close range and is
Speaker 3: able to shoot him in the forehead. So you know,
Speaker 3: that's my sense with the gun. You know, the question,
Speaker 3: of course, is is okay, So why do we see
Speaker 3: a firearm, an axe, and a knife being used across
Speaker 3: the series so far. Does the fact that you know,
Speaker 3: two different weapons are used with the last case that
Speaker 3: you talked about with Jacob and was Abram yep, yep,
Speaker 3: Jacob and Abram, you know, does that suggest that maybe
Speaker 3: you have two offenders? It could, however, a single offender
Speaker 3: could possibly accomplish the same thing depending on the.
Speaker 2: Sequence, you know, and the other ones. You've got one
Speaker 2: person there who is the victim, and this is the
Speaker 2: first time that we've seen two victims at the same time.
Speaker 2: So the escalation, I know is not the right word,
Speaker 2: but the development of what is happening with each of
Speaker 2: these murders is interesting.
Speaker 3: Well, I think, you know, probably the only thing I
Speaker 3: would I would draw upon the fact that the last
Speaker 3: case had had two men that were victims, just tells
Speaker 3: me that the offender had the confidence. If it's a
Speaker 3: single offender had the confidence to be able to take
Speaker 3: on two men in order to commit the crime. Chances
Speaker 3: are it's not like the offender is thinking, oh, I
Speaker 3: got to go out and find two men for the
Speaker 3: next case, you know, That's not what's going on. This
Speaker 3: is probably a situation in which these two men may
Speaker 3: have been stumbled across by the offender. You know, they
Speaker 3: were truly victims of opportunity, and the offender size them
Speaker 3: up and goes, I can deal with them with the
Speaker 3: control aspects that I have with the gun and the knife.
Speaker 3: But then you also have the possibility of two offenders
Speaker 3: going yep, let's do this. It just happened that Abraham
Speaker 3: and Jacob were out camping together and they were sized
Speaker 3: up by the offender as being Okay, these are targets,
Speaker 3: and they'd likely have money or any other things of
Speaker 3: financial value that the offender wanted.
Speaker 2: It's just so interesting because I have you ringing in
Speaker 2: my head, take out the male first, right, if you're
Speaker 2: attacking a whole family, you want the most aggressive person
Speaker 2: who could fight back, who's going to be the biggest threat,
Speaker 2: to take out the biggest threat first. And here they
Speaker 2: are or here this is happening, you know, with people
Speaker 2: who are just you're only attacking big threats, and these
Speaker 2: are all young guys too well.
Speaker 3: But you also have to take it like, right now,
Speaker 3: we know nothing about Jacob and Abram in terms of
Speaker 3: their physical characteristics. You know, it's possible the offender is
Speaker 3: looking at these two men, going, well, that's the alpha male.
Speaker 3: I have to take him out first, you know. So
Speaker 3: that aspect, that processing aspect by the offenders is still
Speaker 3: in play. We just don't know.
Speaker 2: Well, let's move over, because I did give you quite
Speaker 2: a bit teas. I will say, we have five men
Speaker 2: dead in about three weeks over upwards of one hundred miles.
Speaker 2: It sounds like there's been some traveling. So let's talk
Speaker 2: about what happens next. I told you that, you know,
Speaker 2: we have somebody else who has been killed, and we
Speaker 2: have also a survivor for the first time. So about
Speaker 2: three weeks after the murder at the campground in the
Speaker 2: same area, there's a man named Edward Metcalf. He's leading
Speaker 2: Oxen through a mountain pass. Earlier in the day there
Speaker 2: was an acquaintance of his name, Bill Carter, who had
Speaker 2: passed Edward on the road. They were going in the
Speaker 2: same direction. Later in the day, when he's returning going
Speaker 2: on the same road, he sees Bill's body on a
Speaker 2: snowbank on the side of the road. So this is
Speaker 2: the guy who passed him. So Bill had been shot
Speaker 2: and attacked with an axe. The overcoat that Bill had
Speaker 2: been wearing and Edward saw it when he passed him.
Speaker 1: Is gone.
Speaker 2: So Edward is trying to figure out what the hell
Speaker 2: happened to his friend. He's sitting on his wagon. The
Speaker 2: Oxen are still attached. He is shot in the chest.
Speaker 2: On the left hand side.
Speaker 3: Edward is Edward.
Speaker 2: Yes, he's looking at his friend's dead body on a
Speaker 2: little snowbank, and he is shot. The bullet must have
Speaker 2: gone through to his heart. But Edward had been carrying
Speaker 2: a bundle of mail and a copy of the Emancipation
Speaker 2: Proclamation in his breast pocket, so the bullet got this
Speaker 2: is just what you were talking about before. The bullet
Speaker 2: doesn't go through, It hits the Emancipation Proclamation, and when
Speaker 2: the Oxen, when they hear the gun shot, flip out
Speaker 2: and they bolt, and there's a second shot that misses Edward.
Speaker 2: Now Edward's wagon hits a rock. He's that poor guy.
Speaker 2: He's bounced out onto the ground. He hears nearby shots
Speaker 2: and it sounds like he sees two men in the
Speaker 2: dist Another person also sees or hears the shooting and
Speaker 2: rides into fair Play to get help. There's a party
Speaker 2: that comes to the area. They find Edward he is alive,
Speaker 2: and he survives, and they also recover Bill's body. So
Speaker 2: two men, if we believe these are our offenders, but
Speaker 2: there's no one else around except somebody hearing a shot
Speaker 2: and then going to fair play.
Speaker 3: So Bill is killed, and you know, he's shot and
Speaker 3: attacked with the acts. And then when Edward comes across
Speaker 3: Bill's body, and I'm not sure you know what kind
Speaker 3: of time frame we're talking about, you know, in terms
Speaker 3: of Edward and Bill passing each other, and then Edward
Speaker 3: circling back round, but the offender is still in the
Speaker 3: same area, but Edward's not seeing the offender and he
Speaker 3: gets shot in the chest. So now this suggests that
Speaker 3: you have an offender who is shooting from a distance,
Speaker 3: possibly undercover. And then Edward says that he saw two men.
Speaker 3: So now possibly we're dealing with two offenders. One offender
Speaker 3: that is armed with a firearm of some sort and
Speaker 3: is competent enough to be able to shoot and hit
Speaker 3: a target from a distance. And I'm wondering if there
Speaker 3: is a rifle being used versus a handgun. But then
Speaker 3: you also have another offender with Bill that's possibly armed
Speaker 3: with an axe, So I could see where Now if
Speaker 3: you have let's say, these two offenders that are working
Speaker 3: in concert, where you have one offender that in essence
Speaker 3: stays concealed and is armed with a firearm and the
Speaker 3: other offender is interacting with them and is armed with
Speaker 3: a knife end or an axe. It's not necessarily that way,
Speaker 3: But now it's like, okay, you know, did the offenders
Speaker 3: after they killed Bill? Did they stay knowing that there
Speaker 3: would be other victims that would be passing through, like
Speaker 3: this is a thoroughfare, and so now they're just low
Speaker 3: and wait for the next victim, and it happens to
Speaker 3: be Edward. Yes.
Speaker 2: And Edward makes things a little more complicated by saying
Speaker 2: he did not get a good look at the attackers,
Speaker 2: but good enough to say he believes that they were
Speaker 2: both of Mexican descent, which is not helpful because that's
Speaker 2: a large portion of Colorado.
Speaker 3: But still, okay, you now have these men of Mexican
Speaker 3: descent that had a good life going for them, and
Speaker 3: then that life is disrupted by these white settlers. And
Speaker 3: now you have these Mexican men that are basically becoming
Speaker 3: missionary offenders. They have a mission and they're committing that
Speaker 3: anger italiatory type of offender. Where Edward and Bill aren't
Speaker 3: necessarily men that they had any interpersonal angst about this
Speaker 3: is that they represented the white settler and now they
Speaker 3: are taking their anger and retaliating against anybody that is
Speaker 3: of that white settler type of characteristic.
Speaker 2: Well, so now we're thinking that this might be a
Speaker 2: switch from robbery victims of opportunity to targeting specific types
Speaker 2: of me. You're right, they're all the same demographic. There
Speaker 2: are men who are clearly you know, they're working and
Speaker 2: living in residence, and they're working at sawmills and driving
Speaker 2: oxen and everything. The only thing taken I said from
Speaker 2: Bill was an overcoat. But they might have felt like
Speaker 2: they didn't have any time. Clearly, this is a road
Speaker 2: that's traveled. If you've got two men who were passing
Speaker 2: each other, So there's that too. Maybe they didn't have
Speaker 2: an opportunity. Sure, if it is vengeance, then robbery is
Speaker 2: the minor motive or is it a motive at all?
Speaker 2: And it's just like, well, I might as well take
Speaker 2: this to make my life a little bit easier. If
Speaker 2: there's money or an overcoat to be warming, is that
Speaker 2: what that would be?
Speaker 3: Sure, the financial aspect of these crimes may be secondary
Speaker 3: if this is the if the motive is truly retaliating
Speaker 3: against a white settler, and there may be an undercurrent
Speaker 3: by the uh these offenders that if we do this,
Speaker 3: we're going to drive out the white settlers are going
Speaker 3: to realize this isn't a place they want to be.
Speaker 3: We're going to scare them away. But I think that
Speaker 3: the financial side, you know, they're just taking advantage of Okay,
Speaker 3: now we have access to potentially money or whatever else
Speaker 3: it is, in order to be able to enhance their
Speaker 3: lifestyle in whatever way. And it sounds like they're traveling
Speaker 3: around a lot. You know, they're probably going to need
Speaker 3: money as they stop in various towns in order to
Speaker 3: get food or whatever. I don't know if they have
Speaker 3: horses with them. This is a a version. If this
Speaker 3: is the reason they're they're doing this is because of
Speaker 3: this vengeance. As you said, this retaliatory type of attack.
Speaker 3: I mean, this is a type of serial killer. It's
Speaker 3: not fantasy motivated. It's very different, a different type of criminal.
Speaker 3: But you know, in some ways, the DC snipers are
Speaker 3: kind of popping into my head, you know, in terms
Speaker 3: of sort of the psychology of the reason to commit
Speaker 3: the crimes. So maybe this is what's going on, But
Speaker 3: until we identify these offenders right now, I mean, Edward,
Speaker 3: is he's being shot at, you know, is he is
Speaker 3: he actually accurate about these guys? Are of Mexican descent?
Speaker 3: Are they actually his you know, his attackers, you know,
Speaker 3: if he's seeing them in a distance.
Speaker 2: So now we have six dead and Edward who survived.
Speaker 2: And now there's that, you know, Edward's a witness, so
Speaker 2: obviously whoever's doing this knows this. But the next day
Speaker 2: we have more victims. We have two men again, Frederick
Speaker 2: Lehmann and Soul Sega. They're found northeast of fair Play.
Speaker 2: So there's still saying the offender or offenders to say, well,
Speaker 2: let's just go at this point with offenders, because Edward
Speaker 2: says he saw two people, So if he's confident enough
Speaker 2: to say of Mexican descent, he's clearly competent enough to
Speaker 2: say two people. So they are staying in this area.
Speaker 2: Frederick and Soul had been traveling with a group, though
Speaker 2: they were a large distance ahead of the rest of
Speaker 2: the caravan, so no one saw this attack. And when
Speaker 2: they were discovered, the bodies were still warm.
Speaker 1: There's a little bit of.
Speaker 2: Legend mixed in with fact tears what Ali says, the
Speaker 2: way that people tell the story. One of these two
Speaker 2: men had a crucifix carved in his chest. The other
Speaker 2: had his head crushed in with a rock. Newspaper reports
Speaker 2: say that they had been attacked. Both of them had
Speaker 2: been attacked with an axe. And we also know from
Speaker 2: an interview with one of the people who discovered these
Speaker 2: men that Lehman's paper collars. So that is Frederick's paper collar.
Speaker 2: So that was the paper that they would keep underneath
Speaker 2: their collar, I believe, like from his shirt.
Speaker 1: Do you know what a paper collar is?
Speaker 3: No, you know, I'm wondering if it's something to help
Speaker 3: keep the collar, Yeah, kind of shaped, right.
Speaker 2: So a paper collar in the eighteen hundreds were detachable,
Speaker 2: and they were designed to be worn with shirts and
Speaker 2: or a practical solution to the labor and sits of
Speaker 2: task of laundering and ironing. One little account said, you
Speaker 2: neither need a wife or you need the money to
Speaker 2: have them launder.
Speaker 1: You need to have a wife, you need to have.
Speaker 2: Wandered anyway, back to this part. The reason the paper
Speaker 2: collar is important is because Frederick's paper collar was nailed
Speaker 2: to a nearby tree and somebody wrote something on it
Speaker 2: in Spanish. In English it says vengeance is to be
Speaker 2: reaked upon Americans as a sacrifice to the Virgin.
Speaker 3: So now, I mean, this is just spilling the beans.
Speaker 3: The offenders are sending a message, right, and they're they're clarifying.
Speaker 3: It was somewhat vague with the cross on the first victim, Frederick,
Speaker 3: you know, but now they're letting it be known why
Speaker 3: they're committing these crimes. And it's kind of what I was.
Speaker 3: I was thinking. They have felt slighted by the white
Speaker 3: settlers moving in. They are vindictive about that. They're they're
Speaker 3: retaliating against anybody that's representative of, you know, the reason
Speaker 3: why their lifestyle had changed. And you know, the cross.
Speaker 3: One of these last victims had a you said, a
Speaker 3: crucifix carved, which that's cross, right, But crucifix if if
Speaker 3: I'm right. Being born and raised Catholic, obviously we know
Speaker 3: that individuals of Mexican descent there was it was a
Speaker 3: strong Catholic background. And so now sort of to your
Speaker 3: point in the first episode, is that the cross is
Speaker 3: indicative of their religious philosophy. Now, why only certain victims
Speaker 3: have a cross? You know, that would be interesting to
Speaker 3: find out. You know, is this because there's something about
Speaker 3: that particular victim that they felt compelled that they needed
Speaker 3: a cross, you know, for whatever reason to save their soul.
Speaker 3: Who knows, or was it just kind of random as
Speaker 3: to who they carve crosses it? But this is now
Speaker 3: just showing, Okay, the motive of these crimes is anger retaliatory.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: And now they're letting them know. They're they're writing in Spanish,
Speaker 3: they are indicating that they have a certain religious philosophy
Speaker 3: and they take they have a certain victimology that they're
Speaker 3: going after, you know, and this is no different than
Speaker 3: how we evaluate offenders today. You know. This is where
Speaker 3: now you see, based off of these crimes, you can
Speaker 3: start to piece together who your suspect pool might be.
Speaker 2: Well, right now, the suspect pool would be all of
Speaker 2: the people of Mexican descent in Colorado Territory, which I
Speaker 2: think once we start figuring out you know, who is where,
Speaker 2: and you're going to need some dumb luck in some
Speaker 2: ways for this to come together. So particularly with Abram Shoop,
Speaker 2: but with the last of these men. Now we have
Speaker 2: a total of eight men dead, one man who survived
Speaker 2: when Edward's story comes out, about two men of Mexican descent.
Speaker 2: Now law enforcement really starts to take action, and there's
Speaker 2: an organized militia that starts to come together. So Fredericknsoll
Speaker 2: live in an area called California Gulch. It's somewhat more
Speaker 2: populous than any of these other areas, and there's a
Speaker 2: big community of prospectors who come together. So about seventeen men,
Speaker 2: led by a man named John mccannon, volunteered to spearhead
Speaker 2: this investigation. I don't know what spurs this, or if
Speaker 2: it's simply the number keeps piling up, or if it's
Speaker 2: Frederick and Sole being connected to this particular area that
Speaker 2: has a large prospector population. But this really sends people
Speaker 2: into a fury and they start to gather these militias.
Speaker 3: What do you think, Well, well, I think there's there's
Speaker 3: multiple layers as to you know, the reason for the
Speaker 3: prospectors to band together, and part of it is just
Speaker 3: probably a simple economic reason. If you have, you know,
Speaker 3: fear starting to interfere with their ability to make money.
Speaker 3: You know they now are going we have to stop
Speaker 3: whoever's doing this. Now, do you know, is there a
Speaker 3: an aspect of a US versus them? Where Now they're going, oh,
Speaker 3: this is somebody from Mexico that's doing this to us,
Speaker 3: you know, and we have to put an end to this.
Speaker 3: And so they're banding together recognizing that there's a threat.
Speaker 2: Well, they are first of all trying to secure the
Speaker 2: areas that have already seen murders. So they are trying
Speaker 2: to lock down and guard Canyon City, and they're trying
Speaker 2: to lock down and guard fair Play. Of course, at
Speaker 2: the same time, you know, they're trying to figure out
Speaker 2: who did this. So John mccannon is the main person here,
Speaker 2: the main investigator, and they realize that Edward's description and
Speaker 2: the violence of these crimes might match the description of
Speaker 2: two men who robbed a wagon that had been carrying
Speaker 2: supplies to a priest in New Mexico late last year.
Speaker 2: So we were in March, end of March eighteen sixty three,
Speaker 2: so they're talking about probably December of eighteen sixty two.
Speaker 1: Now this is in.
Speaker 2: New Mexico, but remember the border thing, so it's New
Speaker 2: Mexico ish, So it's New Mexico and the New Colorado border.
Speaker 2: So this happened on or near the San Luis Valley.
Speaker 2: In that incident, there was a man who had been
Speaker 2: driving a wagon and he had been able to identify
Speaker 2: exactly who robbed him. And the priest writes to the
Speaker 2: authorities at Fort Garland, which is a military base in
Speaker 2: southern Colorado, and the man knew who these two guys were.
Speaker 2: The guys robbed them, and he says to the priest
Speaker 2: it was these two brothers, and they're named vivian and
Speaker 2: Filippe Espinoza. And this is actually a pretty famous story.
Speaker 2: The Espinoza family had been punished for this robbery terribly.
Speaker 2: They lived in a plaza called San Rafael. In January
Speaker 2: of sixty three, so probably about a month after the
Speaker 2: robbery and a few months before the killings, a USh
Speaker 2: marshall brought sixteen soldiers to their plaza to arrest them.
Speaker 2: And at first they tried to get them to come peacefully,
Speaker 2: but Vivianne and Felipe, you know, don't fall for this story.
Speaker 2: The US marshalls said, we're recruiting for.
Speaker 1: The un army.
Speaker 2: The US marshall says, you know, okay, we can come
Speaker 2: back tomorrow because they didn't want to cause a big
Speaker 2: ruckus and maybe be outnumbered. And so when they do
Speaker 2: come back looking for these two brothers, they had been
Speaker 2: barricaded in the back room of one of the houses.
Speaker 2: There's gunfire and one of the soldiers is killed and
Speaker 2: the guys jump a wall. The brothers jump a wall
Speaker 2: and they escape, but that leaves their families in the
Speaker 2: hands of very angry soldiers. At least one of their
Speaker 2: houses is burned down. The soldiers confiscated all of their
Speaker 2: property in their livestock, which is eleven cows and oxen
Speaker 2: and a steer, four beds, one trunk, two water buckets,
Speaker 2: and leaves the surviving family with nothing. Both of the
Speaker 2: brothers are married, so it's the wives and children who
Speaker 2: have to deal with all of this when the brothers
Speaker 2: come back after escaping this confrontation with the marshals. So
Speaker 2: this is the story, and this is what people think
Speaker 2: triggered this murderous rampage, which would just start, you know,
Speaker 2: a month or two later.
Speaker 1: So as far as motive, yeah, what do you think?
Speaker 3: You know? I thought maybe their motive was land dispute,
Speaker 3: but the way that they were handled, obviously was brutal. Right,
Speaker 3: and you could see where the anger would be. Now
Speaker 3: they brought the attention to themselves because they went out
Speaker 3: and committed that that robbery. But this is just where
Speaker 3: now they in their own minds, have been wronged and
Speaker 3: they are now taking that anger out on people who
Speaker 3: are representative of the soldiers and the you know, the
Speaker 3: white settlers in terms of who's impacted their lives personally.
Speaker 2: And one thing that I thought was interesting was when
Speaker 2: they robbed the you know, the guy who was driving
Speaker 2: the wagon to deliver these supplies to a priest.
Speaker 1: They didn't kill him.
Speaker 2: I don't know if they had killed anybody before this,
Speaker 2: but that was not something that investigators found at all.
Speaker 2: It seemed to start with the what you had said
Speaker 2: sort of happened with the US marshall and you know,
Speaker 2: destroying all of their property. There's one account that says
Speaker 2: that Felipe wanted to avenge the land theft, that he
Speaker 2: just felt like all of their neighbors were having their
Speaker 2: land taken away from them by the white settlers. So yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean, we're right there. That is that is what
Speaker 2: sounds like.
Speaker 1: Is the motive for all of this.
Speaker 2: I always come back to this the idea that when
Speaker 2: when people think this is such an extraordinary case, one
Speaker 2: that happened, you know, two months ago, and they're not,
Speaker 2: I mean, these are the kinds of cases that happened.
Speaker 2: This is not a spree killing though, right, No, what
Speaker 2: would the category be for this. They're killing people they
Speaker 2: don't know with spaces apart. But it's not the traditional
Speaker 2: serial killer. Do you still think serial killer?
Speaker 3: Well, I wouldn't use the term serial killer, even though
Speaker 3: I mentioned it is a form of serial killer. But
Speaker 3: by definition I would not characterize what they're doing as
Speaker 3: being serial killers. That they are committing a series of crimes.
Speaker 3: This is an essence, you know, a series of robberies,
Speaker 3: it's like what we see today. But they're committing a
Speaker 3: series of homicides and there is a robbery component. But
Speaker 3: I think you know, when you start talking about the
Speaker 3: financial aspect of this crime, they feel that they've been
Speaker 3: wronged and there you know, their friends, their family, they
Speaker 3: you know, the other people of Mexican descent have been
Speaker 3: financially wronged. So the financial motive of the crimes, in
Speaker 3: the homicides that they're committing, may be representative in their
Speaker 3: minds to what part of the wrong was done to
Speaker 3: the people that they care about. I also just think
Speaker 3: it's practical. You know, they're away from home, they're marauding
Speaker 3: around the countryside, you know, you think about it. I'm
Speaker 3: sure they're probably pretty good at living off the land,
Speaker 3: you know, finding food, you know, finding shelter, But there
Speaker 3: is still probably in eighteen sixties, even though they're living
Speaker 3: off the land to a point, they probably need to
Speaker 3: have some ability to pay for things. And that may
Speaker 3: be what they're doing is they're killing these men in
Speaker 3: order to you know, have the vengeance. But then they're
Speaker 3: taking advantage of having access to these men's resources to
Speaker 3: continue committing these crimes. Now, is it a spree type killing?
Speaker 3: You know, usually when you see the spree type cases,
Speaker 3: there isn't that cooling off period, you know, the significant
Speaker 3: cooling are They're just boom boom boom boom boom as
Speaker 3: they go and commit these crimes back to back to back.
Speaker 3: So I don't study the spree type killers. Maybe there's
Speaker 3: a way that this series would be labeled as a spree.
Speaker 3: For me, it's a series that that's kind of how
Speaker 3: I would label it.
Speaker 2: I wonder why they don't go after specific people who
Speaker 2: have wronged them, like tracking down the US marshall who
Speaker 2: you know, instigated that whole thing, or some of the
Speaker 2: soldiers who were there, or the deputies were there. Surely
Speaker 2: somebody in their plaza had land taken away, and now
Speaker 2: the white person, the white settlers living there.
Speaker 1: I mean, why why not? Why not be specific?
Speaker 3: Well, I think that there's a very fundamental and practical
Speaker 3: reason why not. Is here, there's these two brothers, and
Speaker 3: you're going to go attack a battalion of soldiers. Yeah right.
Speaker 3: It may just have been that we cannot be successful
Speaker 3: with that group or having even access to that group,
Speaker 3: versus you know, men who have isolated themselves, you know,
Speaker 3: driving the oxen or riding on the stage coach down
Speaker 3: to the sawmill. You know, those are much more vulnerable
Speaker 3: and easier victims that are lower risk to these brothers
Speaker 3: than them charging at armed soldiers at some fort. You know.
Speaker 3: That's that's what I would would say to that. If
Speaker 3: they could ban together, let's say, a group of one
Speaker 3: hundred men that had the same experience as they did
Speaker 3: in the same anger, then you could see where they
Speaker 3: would maybe go after the various entities that directly harm them.
Speaker 3: But they don't have that capability, so now they're using
Speaker 3: these other men as proxies in order to be able
Speaker 3: to get the vengeance that they seek.
Speaker 2: Well, it's clear that McKennon knows who to look for.
Speaker 2: Now he's looking for the brothers and they find them.
Speaker 2: I always find this so shocking. Within less than a week.
Speaker 2: It sounds like the militia group spots two horses grazing
Speaker 2: in an area called four Mile Creek and they see
Speaker 2: in the distance Vivian Espinoza approaching the horses. And you know,
Speaker 2: I don't know why they thought specifically this was him,
Speaker 2: but they were pretty sure and they turn out to
Speaker 2: be right. And I always think, how can they track
Speaker 2: people down that quickly when they could literally be anywhere?
Speaker 2: And part of it, I'm sure is luck, and part
Speaker 2: of it is knowing the places where people are capable
Speaker 2: of staying by water where they can survive. But then,
Speaker 2: you know, I always impress when people track, you know,
Speaker 2: folks down in major cities too, with all of the
Speaker 2: people around them, So maybe I shouldn't be so shocked,
Speaker 2: but they find him.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well it's impressive. These prospectors, John what's his name,
Speaker 3: John McKinnon you know, they have knowledge of the area,
Speaker 3: and so maybe when you know, this particular area, when
Speaker 3: they see the horses and they see, you know, a
Speaker 3: male of Mexican descent from Afar, They're going to go, well,
Speaker 3: that doesn't look right. We need to, you know, investigate further.
Speaker 3: And it turns out it's it's one of these brothers.
Speaker 3: I'm envisioning the old wanted posters, you know, wanted dead
Speaker 3: or alive, right, you know, with a reward and the
Speaker 3: photos of you know, the individuals, and you know, I'm
Speaker 3: kind of curious to see if something like that was,
Speaker 3: you know, posted out there at certain places.
Speaker 1: No, I don't think so.
Speaker 2: And I was just thinking, Okay, where would be the
Speaker 2: common places. I guess in californ gulch where the prospectors are,
Speaker 2: but I don't know what they would do. I guess
Speaker 2: at waste stations like where John was killed. Sure, you
Speaker 2: know you would put them at places where you know
Speaker 2: that they're sort of foot traffic.
Speaker 1: I guess you could nail them to trees. Who knows.
Speaker 2: They identify Vivian mcannon's party fires and they hit him,
Speaker 2: but they don't kill him. He starts shooting back and
Speaker 2: then somebody from the militia shoots him between the eyes
Speaker 2: and he dies.
Speaker 3: This is FILIPI or Vivian.
Speaker 1: This is Vivian Vivian.
Speaker 2: Okay, they do see Philippe, but there is a member
Speaker 2: of the party who is also of Mexican descent, who
Speaker 2: is in the militia, and so you know, there has
Speaker 2: been chaos with all the shooting and people spread out.
Speaker 2: When they see Felipe, which they correctly see Felipe, they
Speaker 2: think it could be a member of their party. So
Speaker 2: Mcan says, don't shoot, and it turns out to be
Speaker 2: the bad guy, and Felipe escapes. I mean, that's nice
Speaker 2: that they don't shoot any random man the way he
Speaker 2: might be on our team, but Felipe.
Speaker 3: Escapes the way that you're telling the story. They're very
Speaker 3: certain that the Espinoza brothers are the ones responsible for
Speaker 3: this series. But think about it right now, you know,
Speaker 3: at this point where they've they've killed Vivian, what evidence
Speaker 3: do they have? You know, how can they be so
Speaker 3: certain that these are the ones that are responsible? You know,
Speaker 3: So I'm looking at it from okay, so how are
Speaker 3: you going to build this case, you know, and prove
Speaker 3: that these two brothers are the ones responsible for all
Speaker 3: those these homicides, you know, and this is where now
Speaker 3: it's like, do they have the firearm that was used
Speaker 3: in you know, the various cases, do they have the acts?
Speaker 3: You know, start building up. Even though you can't do
Speaker 3: modern forensics on potential evidence from these weapons, you know,
Speaker 3: you most certainly could see how these weapons may you know,
Speaker 3: if they have access to them, that they that is
Speaker 3: a you know, it's it's a form of physical evidence,
Speaker 3: but it's somewhat circumstantial. It's like, Okay, yeah, they had
Speaker 3: they had the weapons available be able to commit these
Speaker 3: crimes over the last three or four weeks or however
Speaker 3: long it was.
Speaker 2: And I'm assuming that any guys like the Espinoza brothers
Speaker 2: who are out camping, if they're innocent and there are
Speaker 2: a bunch of white prospectors firing at them, they're going
Speaker 2: to fire back and run.
Speaker 1: So you're right, I mean, there's not that proof.
Speaker 2: Except I love stories like this because I find it
Speaker 2: so fascinating why people do things.
Speaker 1: They look at Vivian's.
Speaker 2: Body and the camp site, they find items that were
Speaker 2: stolen from several of the men who had been killed.
Speaker 2: I'm assuming, like the coat and some of the other things.
Speaker 2: There's also something that's described as an article of agreement,
Speaker 2: but it's really kind of a manifesto. Okay, actually we're
Speaker 2: not sure which one of the brothers wrote it, but
Speaker 2: Vivin had it. It says that the brothers plan to
Speaker 2: kill six hundred white men as retribution for their stolen property.
Speaker 1: And you know what happened with the US Marshall.
Speaker 2: There's another document that is also found on Vivian's person
Speaker 2: that says that their father had also been a murderer,
Speaker 2: and that Vivienne is compelled to commit fifty additional murderers
Speaker 2: to atone for his father's sins. Ali, the researcher, says,
Speaker 2: I don't know what that means, but that's what the
Speaker 2: paper apparently said.
Speaker 1: So there are.
Speaker 2: Those two things, and for good measure, mccannon cuts off
Speaker 2: Vivian's head and brings it back to fair play is proof.
Speaker 1: So what do you think about those?
Speaker 2: You know, they find some stolen items which could have
Speaker 2: been discarded by the real killer, and they.
Speaker 1: Picked up and took with who knows, you.
Speaker 3: Know, yeah, you know, but I would say, you know,
Speaker 3: they got the right guys. You know, the manifestos. This
Speaker 3: is where I'd used the term before. You know, this
Speaker 3: missionary type of offender. This is somebody who has a philosophy.
Speaker 3: They're on a mission to you know, uphold this philosophy,
Speaker 3: and this is where you see them writing these manifestos.
Speaker 3: Most famously as the Unobobber. You know, Ted Kaczinski, he
Speaker 3: had a mission. You know, you most certainly had an
Speaker 3: anti social aspect, anti technology aspect. But there's other examples
Speaker 3: of missionary type of offenders. You know. It's interesting. You know,
Speaker 3: there's this phrase that criminality runs in families, and we
Speaker 3: see that in law enforcement that select families through the
Speaker 3: generations just always seem to be on the wrong side.
Speaker 3: And you know, with with dad being a you know,
Speaker 3: he's a murderer, you know, and now you got his
Speaker 3: two sons, it's just something that is not surprising at all. So,
Speaker 3: you know, with with what you've told me, you know,
Speaker 3: I'm confident they got the right guys. You know, but
Speaker 3: it's an interesting kind of you know, relating the series
Speaker 3: into the modern times. I mean, it's no different than
Speaker 3: what we've seen the history between the Colorado Territory New Mexico,
Speaker 3: you know, the White settlers move agin you know, the
Speaker 3: gold rush, if you will, in this particular area. You know,
Speaker 3: in essence, you have, you know, a group of individuals
Speaker 3: and particularly Vivian and Felipe, that felt that they were
Speaker 3: harmed and that they were going to seek vengeance. And
Speaker 3: that's what we see all the time.
Speaker 2: Well it keeps going, Paul, I mean, Felipe is not
Speaker 2: going to be discouraged as easily.
Speaker 1: He's on the run.
Speaker 2: They didn't catch him because of that other guy who
Speaker 2: could have been him, and they held fire. He goes
Speaker 2: back to the campsite where his brother's body is mcannon
Speaker 2: and party took the head, and Felipe berries what's left
Speaker 2: Vivianne and then he brings Vivian's foot with him. It
Speaker 2: means something to him, you know, just like the killing
Speaker 2: of a fifty additional white guys. He goes back home
Speaker 2: and now the militia people know who is doing this.
Speaker 2: Nobody's there. When he gets there, he recruits his teenage nephew.
Speaker 2: We think his name is Jose It's disputed. Sometimes there's
Speaker 2: a lot of sort of interesting legends that happen with
Speaker 2: this story because it is well known. And they go
Speaker 2: to Vivian's place and stay there, which is not far
Speaker 2: it's nearby. I think it's in the same plaza. So
Speaker 2: when they killed Vivian it was the beginning of May.
Speaker 2: He is on the run with his nephew until at
Speaker 2: least the end of June. At the end of June,
Speaker 2: his quest to kill six hundred white men continues. They
Speaker 2: kill a fisherman named William Smith. This is to the south,
Speaker 2: which is close to where the Espinosas live. They think
Speaker 2: that there are likely more attacks that happened, you know,
Speaker 2: it's just is something maybe they don't know about, or
Speaker 2: the person went missing and it was never reported. But
Speaker 2: this is the thing that sort of upsets me is
Speaker 2: in October they attack a man and a woman who
Speaker 2: are driving a wagon near Fort Garland. The woman's name
Speaker 2: is Dolores Sanchez and the man's last name is Philbrook.
Speaker 2: We can figure out his first name. That two people
Speaker 2: run an opposite directions. Once they rob the wagon, they
Speaker 2: catch Dolores and they raper the man she was with
Speaker 2: and Dolores both survive and they find each other in
Speaker 2: Fort Garland, where they report the attack. I don't know
Speaker 2: why I found that surprising. It was a big switch
Speaker 2: to me sexually assaulting someone.
Speaker 3: Well, you have offenders that commit a wide variety of crimes,
Speaker 3: and you know, I go to my case history where
Speaker 3: I've got guys involved in gangs selling dope. They're killing
Speaker 3: each other over territory. They're also sexually assaulting women. It
Speaker 3: just seems like, you know, once you pass a certain
Speaker 3: threshold of criminality, everything's on the table. This just kind
Speaker 3: of underscores to me. You know that there may be
Speaker 3: arguments that there's some justification for Vivian and Philippa being
Speaker 3: so outraged with what happened to them, But at the
Speaker 3: same time, it looks like they have an in name
Speaker 3: criminality trait, and now you're starting to see they're willing
Speaker 3: to do just about anything to anybody.
Speaker 2: Now, let's just to wrap this up. We'll talk about
Speaker 2: how things go with Felipe. So now it feels like
Speaker 2: the whole Colorado territory knows about this, and the entire
Speaker 2: southern half has sort of been frozen with transit. There
Speaker 2: is no one doing any big movement of mail or
Speaker 2: freights without a military escort. The commander at Fort Garland
Speaker 2: asks an esteam tracker who is a mountain guide and
Speaker 2: an army scout named Tom Tobin, who I had heard of,
Speaker 2: and he says, you got to find the Espinosas, and
Speaker 2: he's given fifteen soldiers to work with. He ends up
Speaker 2: being like a famous frontiersman in the wild West. He's
Speaker 2: nicknamed Rocky Mountain Tom. It takes Tom one day to
Speaker 2: find the trail. He finds ox and tracks near Lavieta,
Speaker 2: and they find one ox on the trail and they
Speaker 2: can see a lot of crows circling in the sky
Speaker 2: above the woods that line the trail. So Tom thinks
Speaker 2: that the Espinosas had brought the other ox to the
Speaker 2: camp site to kill and eat it, and they start
Speaker 2: kind of moving towards the crows. I was curious about crows.
Speaker 2: You know, I've written about vultures, and they can float
Speaker 2: around on it.
Speaker 1: They're not flying. They're on the wind.
Speaker 2: Currents and their circle gets tighter and they get lower
Speaker 2: as they get closer to the prey. But it's pretty
Speaker 2: organized crows. The most common reason that I read that
Speaker 2: they are circling is because they've been disrupted and they're
Speaker 2: sort of on the wind current also and they're kind
Speaker 2: of waiting. But it also could be, you know, something
Speaker 2: else having to do with prey. But I had not
Speaker 2: heard of crows circling over what potentially could be, you know,
Speaker 2: a death site. So they come to the campsite and
Speaker 2: they see Felipe sitting with his back to a rock
Speaker 2: in front of a fire. And then someone steps on
Speaker 2: the damn twig and always a twig, I mean, even
Speaker 2: in horror movies, and Felipe immediately goes for his gun.
Speaker 2: Tom is faster and he shoots Felipe in the side.
Speaker 2: Felipe falls into the campfire, yelling for his nephew to run,
Speaker 2: but the party sees him and Tom shoots him and
Speaker 2: kills him. Felipe crawls out of the fire and tries
Speaker 2: to get to his gun. By that point, Tom and
Speaker 2: his men are down at the campsite and there's no
Speaker 2: getting away from it, and he ends up, you know,
Speaker 2: killing him and then beheading Filipe. That is a very
Speaker 2: Hollywood dramatic ending to you know, this sort of story.
Speaker 2: They find a diary Filipe had been keeping. It kind
Speaker 2: of indicates the same thing, why why they're doing this
Speaker 2: to begin with, But he says that he and his
Speaker 2: brother and his nephew had killed a total of thirty
Speaker 2: two people in eight months, and you know, in October
Speaker 2: they bring Felipe's head back to Fort Garland.
Speaker 3: So the head has just proof that I got the
Speaker 3: guy right. Yeah, and probably Tobin is being paid once
Speaker 3: he delivers the head.
Speaker 1: I'm sure a lot of money. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, I think it's interesting that Felipe has a diary,
Speaker 3: and again I think that that's what you see with
Speaker 3: these missionary type of offenders. They're they're recording how they
Speaker 3: are satisfying, you know, what their goals are, how they're
Speaker 3: you know, meeting the agenda. Who is he going to
Speaker 3: show that diary too? Is he taking it back to
Speaker 3: certain individuals and saying, hey, look, this is I've atoned for,
Speaker 3: you know, the wrong that everybody around here was subjected
Speaker 3: to by the US soldiers or whatever. But from from
Speaker 3: my perspective, just the series itself is the way that
Speaker 3: it played out is okay. Yeah, It's like if you
Speaker 3: have today, you have somebody that's committing multiple home invasion robberies.
Speaker 3: You know, it's just it's you have that happening, and
Speaker 3: it just turns out that Vivian and Felipe, you know,
Speaker 3: they had a mission on top of you know, whatever
Speaker 3: financial motive may have been.
Speaker 2: Present, And I wonder if they knew six hundred was
Speaker 2: not well, six fifty was not realistic, and they were
Speaker 2: just going to keep going until sure it stopped. And
Speaker 2: this is a way to get their story out. You know,
Speaker 2: whatever we think about them, their complaint of having land
Speaker 2: that was theirs for generations and their people having it
Speaker 2: taken away is you know, totally different than the atrocities
Speaker 2: that they committed. But still that way, you know, he
Speaker 2: has it on record that this is what we were doing.
Speaker 2: We're taking responsibility from it. But I mean, I can't
Speaker 2: even imagine he thought he was going to survive this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but also it's sort of you take a look
Speaker 3: at the timeframe and they're saying that they killed thirty two.
Speaker 3: I mean, I wouldn't be surprised. This is what did
Speaker 3: people have back in the day to actually link all
Speaker 3: the cases that they committed together. Yeah, you know, so
Speaker 3: you know, maybe they did think, you know, they would
Speaker 3: be able to keep going because there's no way that
Speaker 3: whatever version of law enforcement was available back in the day.
Speaker 3: They're like, nobody's going to be able to figure us out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Now, do the crosses make sense? To you in
Speaker 2: a different way. The crucifix. This is not for the guys.
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure this is not for their victims.
Speaker 3: I would probably lean towards the crosses are a way
Speaker 3: that they are atoning for the sin of killing these victims,
Speaker 3: just with that Catholic aspect to their up of bringing,
Speaker 3: which I don't know if that was ever explicitly stated
Speaker 3: in the details, but I'm presuming that that's the case,
Speaker 3: you know. So that's what I'm thinking, you know, is
Speaker 3: that this is this is something they are doing this
Speaker 3: in a way. You know, it's like Vivian writing about
Speaker 3: killing fifty more to atone for his father. Right. Yeah,
Speaker 3: they've permuted some of the traditional Catholic traditions into a
Speaker 3: way to where now they are somehow justifying and or
Speaker 3: atoning for the crimes that they're committing.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, it made them infamous and in such an awful way.
Speaker 2: But like I said, these kinds of stories, the stories
Speaker 2: about strangers killing random people that is not connected to
Speaker 2: some kind of serial killer or you know, couples killer,
Speaker 2: zodiac type stuff, This to me was pretty different, and
Speaker 2: it did remind me of the DC sniper story that
Speaker 2: was I mean quite a long time ago, but I
Speaker 2: remember it was an older man with a younger teenage boy,
Speaker 2: and you know, it was so complicated. I do remember,
Speaker 2: and I don't know if this is right. I feel
Speaker 2: like I've read before that people who commit mass shootings
Speaker 2: like Vegas almost never intend or like the tower at
Speaker 2: the University of Texas, almost never intend to survive. They
Speaker 2: don't want to survive. Have you felt like that's true
Speaker 2: or no?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that that's probably correct. You know, the
Speaker 3: mass shooters, I mean, you think about the school shootings,
Speaker 3: you know these I mean, these shooters know law enforcement's
Speaker 3: going to respond in force, and just based off of history,
Speaker 3: most of those shooters never survive, and many of them
Speaker 3: ultimately take their own lives once they realize that, you know,
Speaker 3: law enforcement is there. So I would say that that's
Speaker 3: probably a correct interpretation of the psychology of the mass shooter.
Speaker 3: They basically want to go out in many ways what
Speaker 3: you'd call a blaze of glory. You know, they're trying
Speaker 3: to make a name for themselves. They want their names
Speaker 3: in the headline. There is a in their minds, a
Speaker 3: certain level of vengeance to the crimes that they're committing.
Speaker 3: But they're doing it all in one foul swoop, which
Speaker 3: is different than Vivian and Felipe. You know, they are
Speaker 3: being strategic. They are trying to be able to continue
Speaker 3: to offend over a period of time, but they stay
Speaker 3: on track. This is where with like the prototypical serial
Speaker 3: killer that we talk about, those types of offenders that
Speaker 3: I've worked on, you know, there's this cooling off period
Speaker 3: in between committing each crime, and so it shows that
Speaker 3: the next time that they commit a crime, they can't
Speaker 3: make an argument that they acted in a fit of
Speaker 3: rage because they had the cooling off period and then
Speaker 3: they reoffend, and then they reoffend, and that's what's happening
Speaker 3: with Vivian and Felipe. It's just not for sexual gratification
Speaker 3: or for fantasy aspects. It is anger retaliatory.
Speaker 1: What a story.
Speaker 2: And I did not intend for this to be a
Speaker 2: two parter, but once we got into it and I
Speaker 2: saw how interested you were in it and it is
Speaker 2: a really interesting story, then I said, okay, well we're
Speaker 2: going to have to expand on this because you know,
Speaker 2: who are these people and why are they doing it?
Speaker 2: This is one of the more complicated motives that I
Speaker 2: feel like we've covered vengeance, I understand, but sort of
Speaker 2: the mindset and the way they're going to go about
Speaker 2: it is really very Hollywood and so sad. And I
Speaker 2: believe them when they say that they've killed thirty two
Speaker 2: people because you know, they had a purpose and they
Speaker 2: could have said six hundred, you know, and we reached
Speaker 2: the goal, but they said thirty two. And it reminds
Speaker 2: me so much of the people who probably have been
Speaker 2: killed by the serial killer in modern days, and there's
Speaker 2: just no way to connect them. And you have these
Speaker 2: families who just spend the rest of their lives wondering
Speaker 2: what happened.
Speaker 3: No, no, for sure, you know it's in you know,
Speaker 3: in some ways you see this, I guess, this battle
Speaker 3: between two groups, you know, in the Colorado territory, and
Speaker 3: you know it's it's sad that humans go after each
Speaker 3: other this way, you know. But then now you see
Speaker 3: how that type of environment created, you know, these two
Speaker 3: brothers to have a mission, and that mission was to
Speaker 3: go out and kill.
Speaker 2: Well, next week you will be in Colorado. Sadly, we
Speaker 2: will not be in Colorado. We will definitely be in
Speaker 2: a different stick well, our territory. Who knows who knows
Speaker 2: this is our first territory too, So get some rest
Speaker 2: because I'm sure I'm going to have another compelling.
Speaker 1: Story for you.
Speaker 3: All right, Well, once again, I'm looking forward to it and.
Speaker 1: See you later.
Speaker 3: All right, sounds good.
Speaker 2: This has been an exactly right production for our sources
Speaker 2: and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia dot com slash
Speaker 2: Buried Bones Sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.
Speaker 2: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.
Speaker 2: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgaroff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at
Speaker 2: Baried Bones Pod.
Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded
Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race to decode the
Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available
Speaker 2: Now, and Paul's selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's
Speaker 2: Cold Cases is also available now